View Full Version : Band of the Red Hand Debate
McFungos
07-30-2005, 17:15
I agree with Andreas about the potential of a overwhelming number of new units for the Dragon faction.
For the band of the Red Hand Band, i think by limiting the production of its units to Tear or/and Caihrien would be the best choice available.
it's a difficult matter of balancing the big choice of units for a Dragon player.
to summarize :
- Conquered nation unit
- Basic dragonsworm
- Aiel units
- The Red Hand Band
- One power user units
For the Red Hand Band ma preference would be :
- more expensive than standard unit
- less men per unit
- less unkeep per unit
The Red Hand Band use tactics and a composition not seen since the Trollocs wars, that for the price of training.
The Band often fight outnumbered, so less man per unit
The Band is financed in part by its nobles members and has a superior supplies organisation that for the lesser unkeep.
About Talmanes, Naleasan and Dearid, i prefere them as ancillary.
Hmm, the compostion of the band is exactly like that of any other army, they just work better together. The Legion, on the other hand, is unique in it's apperance with infantry without pikes.
McFungos
07-30-2005, 20:07
The composition of the Red Hand Band is the closiest to the one used during the trollocs wars, with 1 bowmen for 2 pikemen.
It won't change anything to the Band's units appearances but we must put some incentives to have 1 bowmen unit for 2 of pikemen.
The Band have a higher proportion of bowmen and crossbowmen than any other soldiers groups in Randland.
That in addition of the better coordination of the Band's units make it one of the best force in Randland.
Myrddraal
07-31-2005, 03:05
Your right McFungos, exept they have a preference for crossbows in the Band. I don't think anybody mentioned bows anywhere. But basically in the fights against the Seanchan, the Band are used to ambush with crossbows. I'm fairly sure there is specific mention by a Seanchan character of the men dressed in blue and hail after hail of bolts decimating his troops from the undergrowth...
McFungos
07-31-2005, 08:03
Yes, you are right about crossbows.
I remember Mat complaining about the lack of crossbows in the Band.
No, the band isn't involved there. It is the Legion. I think some things are messed up here... We have the legion of the dragon, commanded by bashere armed with shields and crossbows(3 crossbows per shooter, and two reloaders IIRC) and we have the band, a unit with ordinary horses, pikes and bows controlled by Mat currently in Murandy under Talmanes command, figthing for Mat who fights for Rand, and they are ordinary troops with better morale and better commander then other troops. Pikes and bows have been combined before, but Mat has more structure. It is important to make a difference between the Legion and the Band. The Legion is devoted to rand, the band to mat (and the two rivers men to perrin). The band has both archers and crossbows(but not many enough in mat eyes.). You see the difference? The Band is ordinary troops with another way of orginazation, while the Legion is a troop type never seen since the trolloc wars.
Edit: And IMO, the band isn't one of the best troops, they just have the best commander in the world. Right now, I would say they would perform poorly. When Mat left, soldiers deseted them.
McFungos
07-31-2005, 23:19
Clarification :
The Band composition is as close to the one used during the Trollocs wars and no other units in Randland do that, thanks to Mat memories.
The differences are better combined arms uses and a higher percentage of bowmen and crossbomen.
A such composition of army was used since The Compact of the Ten Nations to the end of the The War of the Hundred Years and have proved its worth a countless of time.
But what is very unlikely is a wide spread of this composition of army.
The legion of the Dragons is something very new altogether and have no link to anything done before in matter of military organisation.
The effect is that the legion is untried espacially against Trollocs fists.
But the legion strength is his number of men.
I want a Dragon faction player to feel thoses differences that to have a effective Band he must spend time building and upgrading stable, archer range and other barrack and that he can't count to have more than a banner ( 20 units) of the Band.
In other hand the player will have the opportunity to build more easily a near unlimited quantity of legion units knowing their experimentals and untried status.
hey McFungos :)
The difference with the Band is it's formation and it's leader. Mat would like to increase the number of missile troops, but he hasn't been able to yet. Remember he's been gone for a good bit of the time. So right now the Band is kinda in between traditional troop makeup and Hawkwing troop makeup.
Right now the band is about one half mounted and one half foot. Of the foot it is about one archer or crossbowman per four pike or billmen. (Source: The Guide) This is only marginally different from Randland armies. The big difference is that the Band is essentially a mercenary troop, yet has a structure of command found only in the elite of the national armies or the Whitecloaks. The effectiveness of the Band is directly tied to Mat. Mat is now a military genius and so the Band keeps winning. Until he has the time to continue reforming them however... they aren't much different from any other elite force. Mat's commanders are all capable but none of them quite understand how to emulate his tactics, left to himself Talmanes will go charging off... Daerid might be able to use Mat's tactics, once explained, but unfortunately he's a commoner and the men won't follow him without a noble's word to back him up.
As everyone agrees, The Legion is a completely different troop type however.
McFungos
08-01-2005, 11:52
The hotheat in the band isn't Talmanes but Naleasan that why Naleasan must have less command than Talmanes or Daerid.
Talmanes isn't Mat but he is a good commander and i think that Talmanes had enough time to get the lacking crossbows and bows since Mat leaved the Band.
In the gameplay matter :
We must decide if the Band in the game has been fully reformed by Mat or not.
From my impression of the novels i vote for the reformed Band.
Naleasan commands half the cavalry... he's got just as much say as the other commanders... more than most actually. Talmanes may not be a hothead but the thought pattern entrenched for generations has been the glory of the charge. ANY commander of horse at this time at best gives grudging respect to the foot. When faced with any enemy, their first thought is: "We are the biggest, baddest, muckety muck guys on horses there are. If we ride over there and slap those bloody peasants a few times they'll break and run. Flaming, sons of goats... can't believe they have the audacity to stand on the field with us. Let's go run them off."
... which for the most part, when the professional armies are facing the usual rabble, works... and so they have no reason to change. Of course when facing more than rabble - it doesn't work, but nobles are notoriously stubborn and they're more likely to assign the blame to any number of misfortunes besides the true cause. (think Laman asking to command in the Aiel War after being beaten across a nation and a half's worth of land) And the reason the attitude hasn't changed is because they don't face other professional armies often.
At last note the Band was up to around 10,000 men from the 6,000 when Mat left it. So it's possible Talmanes could have the Band outfitted the way Mat desires... but unlikely I think. Why? Because Mat's the only one in the entire Westlands with those ideas. (excepting possibly Davram Bashere who can see the potential in those ideas) So it seems likely to me that the Band is probably recruiting across the board, and the ratios are probably about the same. 50% horse, 40% pike & bill, 10% bow & crossbow.
Considering that the novels are moving towards the climatic scene soon (finally, thank God ) I dunno if Mat's ever going to have the time to finish what he started...
The value of the Band is they are structured, so their morale will be better. Pretty much the same as the Companions or the Queen's Guard however. But markedly better than the normal levies and such that usually forms. The real value is if Mat is commanding them as he is a 10 Star General in game terms. And that has strong effects on both the men he is commanding and the men he's fighting against.
I don't think we can force the player to form a true Band army anyway. Mixed units are impossible as far as I'm aware. So there might be Band Cavalry, Band Pikes & Band Crossbows for instance but you couldn't force the player to train one Crossbow for every four Pikes. That's where the fun of the game comes in and you leave the setting to make your own personal choices.
Clarification :
The Band composition is as close to the one used during the Trollocs wars and no other units in Randland do that, thanks to Mat memories.
The differences are better combined arms uses and a higher percentage of bowmen and crossbomen.
A such composition of army was used since The Compact of the Ten Nations to the end of the The War of the Hundred Years and have proved its worth a countless of time.
But what is very unlikely is a wide spread of this composition of army.
Yes, but it is still no eilte unit, just a unit with a better commander that knows how to use his troops.
The legion of the Dragons is something very new altogether and have no link to anything done before in matter of military organisation.
The effect is that the legion is untried espacially against Trollocs fists.
But the legion strength is his number of men.
Wrong, the legion has been seen before. Mat thinks about it in the waste when he sees a crossbow. And they aren't untried anymore, they was superb both in altara and illian, and they carry respect now, they are well trained and so on. There strength isn't manpower, it is suprise and morale.
I want a Dragon faction player to feel thoses differences that to have a effective Band he must spend time building and upgrading stable, archer range and other barrack and that he can't count to have more than a banner ( 20 units) of the Band.
In other hand the player will have the opportunity to build more easily a near unlimited quantity of legion units knowing their experimentals and untried status.
We cannot limit the number of units except with mercs... and I still say that the band is overrated as soldiers.
But this isn't really the right thread for this.
And I agree with SMZ on his points, we do not want to force the player to anything, the point is to reform WOT after your head, that is why it is a game, not a movie. If you want a real band, you build that.
Edit: And I would say that the best force in the books right now, excepting channelers is the Legion/Saldean mix. They have a brilliant commander, good morale and not broken like the Aiel. Even with asha'mans added, they are the best. As SMZ said, the band don't have the commander they need.
McFungos
08-02-2005, 14:46
Andreas,
What's the fate of Talmanes, Naleasan and Dearid ancillary or generals ?
Myrddraal
08-02-2005, 15:09
Thread split.
Sorry about that slip I meant the legion when I talked about the crossbows.
An important point is this, the Rand Era will start with the shaido invasion of Cairhien. The band does not exist yet. It will appear later in game, so logically when it does (whether we make it special units or not) it should be in the early stages, not the reformed stages.
Maybe let the Marius be this? Better Band, add legion and channeling units?
McFungos
08-02-2005, 21:10
Sorry to be so annoying about the Band.
It is ok, but I'm getting a bit tired on everyone seeing everything mat touches as gold(not so much here as at the wmb....)
McFungos
08-03-2005, 19:39
About the Mat :
I am not blind about Mat and i think he is problably the character that changed the least since the beginning of the storie.
I still hope for somes changes before the end. To have the current Mat in command of the strategy for the Least Battle annoy me very much.
About the Band :
I have to agree with you, the Band good but not better than the Companions of Illian or other elites unites.
The Band have the same training and equipments than any averages units but the Band hold very much better than those units.
The purpose of the Band is to be Mat personnal guards unit and thus be limited in size 5 to 7 thousand men. It's a small army compared to the others armies and to the Legion of the Dragon and a hope that can can be reflected in the mod.
Narayanese
08-04-2005, 14:49
The soldiers in the band that fough Shaido, Andor and Illian were just ordinary units from tear and cairhien, strengthened by a good commander. Not much reason to give it its own units for that. Lots of troops were recruited and trained into soldiers in Murandy however by the band.
Shouln't the band have gunpowder unit? I think there was a vision (by Egwene?) about that.
Myrddraal
08-04-2005, 16:20
what hasn't happened in the books yet can't happen in the mod yet. Like I said, the Rand Era will start with the Shaido invasion of Cairhien. There certainly are no gunpowder units then...
I agree, what is not in the books yet isn't in the mod.
4th Dimension
08-05-2005, 01:08
I agree with Narayanese they are after all normal arhien and Taer units tought a bit re gruped.
But from that reorganisation they did gain something. They are now second fastest army in Randland after Ailel. Remember trip where Mat is goiing south, well there is nicely said that in course of a day his infantry can catch up to calivary and even surpass it. Which is something unbeliable even for people who have seen battle.
I hope you implement their speed on big map. As they can move as fast as normal mounted units.
McFungos
08-05-2005, 13:54
:stunned: I forgot that the Band was considered a fast moving army !!!
4th Dimension
08-05-2005, 17:42
Now you got something trhe realy are good at. Fast movment. As conpensation to that they posses normal units with a bit more order or morale. They are somewhat less likely to break an run in battle
Myrddraal
08-05-2005, 20:09
But this might be better represented by a trait for Mat which allows his armies to move faster...
4th Dimension
08-05-2005, 20:21
But this is one of rare things that come from Band itself and not from mat's luck or something else.
He trained them to move fast and now that's their trait not dependible on Mat.
But if it's a problem than....
How do we know? After mat left them, they have moved with the pace of the salidars... And IIRC, we cannot give single units better movement speed.
4th Dimension
08-06-2005, 13:25
Well they moved slowly because thir orders were just to folow Egwene.
And they still poses that sikill just they didn't need it.
Well I was realy thinking about more movment pounts on big map. But if you realy cant make Band of RH units fast then do it as you can.
thats what i meant too... but most of the soldier in the band now has never been forced to march in a quick pace...
I would think that the Band has better morale because they know they have such a great commander. I mean they even made songs about how good they are, and it isn't pushing it to assume that with Mat in command, they think themselves unbeatable.
The Band's advantage is better discipline, better morale, but I don't think they are "elite" units-yet.
But they do not have that commander anymore....
McFungos
08-15-2005, 12:11
I doubt that the WOT mod will be out before "Knife of dreams".
Maybe at the end of KoD the Band will get its commander back and get some actions.
So don't make any final decision about the Band and others units who will be involved in the next book.
The demo might be out before, i do not promise anything but it might be. The full mod will not, especially not the rand-era. We will have to wait and see:)
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