Should everyone be required to do community service? [Archive]

Azi Tohak

08-09-2005, 03:36

not on your life.

Any particular reason? It seems to me having to put up with people you don't like (or agree with) would be a great way to promote tolerance.

Look at the military for example. You don't like someone? Big deal! They are still in your unit, live with it.

And yes, BP, I think it would have to be with pay.

Sasaki Kojiro, who says Einstein would have to be there for a long time, or active duty (yes, Einstein in a tank is a funny mental picture)? Make it 2 years in the National Guard (for us anyway). He can still do his work and also help his country too.

Azi

Kanamori

08-09-2005, 04:08

Einstein in the army?

Think Communist Military -- it makes perfect sense ~;)

bmolsson

08-09-2005, 04:13

I think we should be like finland...start the conscription!!

I think that would be a good idea for US. Instead of having 2 % of the male population in jail, they could be learning marching instead...... ~D

Samurai Waki

08-09-2005, 04:45

Any particular reason? It seems to me having to put up with people you don't like (or agree with) would be a great way to promote tolerance.

Look at the military for example. You don't like someone? Big deal! They are still in your unit, live with it.

And yes, BP, I think it would have to be with pay.

Sasaki Kojiro, who says Einstein would have to be there for a long time, or active duty (yes, Einstein in a tank is a funny mental picture)? Make it 2 years in the National Guard (for us anyway). He can still do his work and also help his country too.

Azi

I've got enough expirience, skills, and dedication to make my own decisions in life. Believe me I have tried to get in the military but to no avail (I will not go into specifics on the matter), I would rather join on my own accord then have someone tell me I have to join. Conscription is a bad idea for most democratic countries excluding Finland and Israel at this point in time.

Productivity

08-09-2005, 04:46

No - it's taxation by stealth.

Proletariat

08-09-2005, 04:50

Exactly, dgb. Why not just cut to the chase and tax the Christ out of us?

Work hours and wages are directly linked. Taking either one or the other for 'the greater good' other than when completely necessary, smacks of utter Communism.

Xiahou

08-09-2005, 05:12

Should everyone have to contribute some time to community service. That is join the armed forces, serve in a government health facility join the peace corps things like that. Make it mandatory with no exceptions.
Nah. To me, the idea of forced servitude, no matter how noble the cause, runs counter to our country's ideals. You should be free to do good deeds, but not forced to.

Red Harvest

08-09-2005, 05:36

I have to agree with the objections. I don't like the idea of "free" nations forcing conscription except in times of extreme crisis. Most of the military conscription by free nations was done out of necessity.

It is better to have willing volunteers (paid or unpaid), than forced conscription in community service as well.

It would be very expensive, and serve as a large tax since it would take time out of person's most productive work years.

Productivity

08-09-2005, 05:45

However, I have nothing against forcing those who receive welfare to do community work, like is run with the work for the dole (http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/services/work_dole.htm) system in Australia.

Sasaki Kojiro

08-09-2005, 05:55

Sasaki Kojiro, who says Einstein would have to be there for a long time, or active duty (yes, Einstein in a tank is a funny mental picture)? Make it 2 years in the National Guard (for us anyway). He can still do his work and also help his country too.

Azi

Most scientists do their groundbreaking work before 30. Those two years are essential.

You don't have to do community service or join the army to do something for your country.

Taohn

08-09-2005, 06:19

It doesn't have to be forced. Simply make 1000+ hours of community service a requirement for high school graduation. Or see about getting the universities to agree to make it (or military service) an admission requirement. Give students some incentive: consistently strong academic performance lessens the number of hours required. On the other hand, for those who decide to go the community service route, and do much more than required, let their first year of higher education be paid for (or monies of equal value be given to them to spend at their discretion). Of course, this wouldn't be mandatory. Students may drop out after grade 8 if they so desire. ~;)

Es Arkajae

08-09-2005, 06:30

Every citizen already contributes to society through taxation, in times of war all male citizens are also liable to be conscripted.

Community service should remain voluntarily, especially as much of the community service wrok involves compassion or dedication, something you'd preferably not want unwilling participants engaged in.

When people aren't working (contributing to the economy), looking after their families (most important duty in society) or having at least a minimum period of rest which every human needs, many already take up volunteer work anyway.

As for the viability of peace time military conscription I'd approve males of certain age having to undergo reservist training (for you Yanks think National Guard) and belong to such units for several years (and be liable to be called up for several years afterwards). These units of course wouldn't be used in war unless dire neccessity called but for such a huge country as Australia with such a small population having large numbers of potential frontline soldiers who would require far less training before being thrown into battle would be a great boon if the shit ever hit the fan.

Think of it as an insurance policy.

Xiahou

08-09-2005, 07:42

However, I have nothing against forcing those who receive welfare to do community workYup, I think that's reasonable too.

Ja'chyra

08-09-2005, 08:16

Nope, shouldn't be compulsory, that's a damn stupid idea sorry G.

However, for people who can't, or more importantly won't, get themselves a job then community service is a great idea, but they would have to be paid.

Del Arroyo

08-09-2005, 10:18

We already (practically) force people to graduate high school and pressure the hell out of them to go to college-- for me, adding some strong incentives toward some sort of organized community service or a *short* stint in the military would not be too far out. And probably couldn't do any more harm than our our current educational system.

DA

Al Khalifah

08-09-2005, 10:36

Should be compulsory if you want to be able to vote.

I'd extend it to include teaching, working for the NHS, fire-service, police etc though.

Ja'chyra

08-09-2005, 12:18

Should be compulsory if you want to be able to vote.

I'd extend it to include teaching, working for the NHS, fire-service, police etc though.

So, should I quit my job to do it or is this after I come home from work?

Navaros

08-09-2005, 13:03

community service is a form of prison time handed-out to criminals

certainly there is no rational reason why non-criminals should suffer that fate as well

Duke Malcolm

08-09-2005, 14:27

Ronin

08-09-2005, 14:28

Should be compulsory if you want to be able to vote.

I'd extend it to include teaching, working for the NHS, fire-service, police etc though.

your rights are just that...rights..they can´t be dependant of your actions, you are entitled to them just by being a citizen, so no.

i allready pay taxes, so no dice, pretty dumb idea.

King Henry V

08-09-2005, 14:49

Too many people are taking too much out of the community than they are putting in, therefore community service wether it is in the army or anywhere would not do any harm.

Al Khalifah

08-09-2005, 15:19

your rights are just that...rights..they can´t be dependant of your actions, you are entitled to them just by being a citizen, so no.
Sorry, but I'm not a subscriber to the school of thought that says purely by virtue of being born you are somehow entitled to power. As Dave says in his sig:

"Depends. I personally believe that wealth should be in the hands of those who have worked to earn it. Socialists believe that just by virtue of having been shot out of a vagina and then mastering the difficult skill of breathing, that they have a right to as equal a share of wealth as everybody else, whether they have done anything to earn it or not (and in most cases, "not")." Goofball!!!

A citizen isn't born, he's made. I'd rather my country was run by those that care about it and work for it, rather than those whose concern for it only stretches as far as what they can get out of it.

rasoforos

08-09-2005, 16:44

Should everyone have to contribute some time to community service. That is join the armed forces, serve in a government health facility join the peace corps things like that. Make it mandatory with no exceptions.

This idea leans dangerously towards socialism my friend :)

My oppinion is that, since it has been tried, tested and it has worked the it will be usefull to a certain extend. However it requires a well structured and fair society and a society where the citizen has more power over the state than the state over the citizen. Very few countries fullfill this criteria at the moment and thus social service tends to be misused.

An example is the compulsory military service for men in Greece. You only need to know someone up high to get stationed in an airconditioned office in the capital...if you are unlucky you end up in a border fighting against cold and mosquitoes. Relatives of Politicians, with almost no exceptions, join the airforce and just sit patiently doing nothing until their service ends.

It can work, it can fail. It has worked and it has failed, it depends on a lot of things.

I believe that it would work better on a small scale basis than on a national basis. On a service for your city than a service for your country basis that is.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-09-2005, 16:52

community service is a form of prison time handed-out to criminals

Ah so legal aid lawyers are criminals as are the members of our armed forces. Many countries today already have this law.

I think that upon leaving full-time education, people should have a choice between 2 years National Service in the Armed Forces, or 3 years Community Service in a hospital, fire brigade, local constabulary, farms, schools.

Tha was my idea not sending everyone into the military. You would learn a lot and for most it would be possible to get experience and on the job training. Yes you should get paid and the government should also feed and house you. Is it a wonder that employers love to hire ex military personel? Why do you think this is so? Because their trained and more reliable than most.

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 16:53

Well what is community service? I volenteer every Wednsday for the past 7 years at my local Watershed Nature Center taking care of the animals there. I don't get paid. Do you count that, or do I need to be serving the government?

Ianofsmeg16

08-09-2005, 16:54

I think that upon leaving full-time education, people should have a choice between 2 years National Service in the Armed Forces, or 3 years Community Service in a hospital, fire brigade, local constabulary, farms, schools.
Thats exactly what i think, all those bar-stewards who cause trouble on the streets would be so much bettter off with 2 years of good ol military service

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 16:57

The idea of forced community service in the army or some area is just cruel and unusual. You're taking away the best years of their life, and possibly their whole life in the case of the army.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-09-2005, 17:00

The idea of forced community service in the army or some area is just cruel and unusual. You're taking away the best years of their life, and possibly their whole life in the case of the army.

Wow I didnt realise I died when I joined the Corps ~D

I guess your right making men out of boys will ruin their lifes forever.

Al Khalifah

08-09-2005, 17:00

and possibly their whole life in the case of the army.
How many US soldiers died in the line of duty this past year? How many military personnel does the US currently employ (including logistics and support) ? If we take the former as a percentage of the latter, you may well discover a very VERY small result.

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 17:09

Gawain, I'm just saying that they could die, not that they neccassarily will die.
And I'd rather go to jail than join the army. That isn't making men out of boys, it is making a machine out of a man. I'm not cutting my hair or saluting or killing for anyone.

Al Khalifah, that isn't the point. The point is that they could die, not how many will. And if the state forces people to join the army, then all of that blood is on the state's hands.
And what about education, or college? Learning about real things is more important than learning about how to kill or to stand strait at attention or take orders like a damn animal, or rather, a machine.
And before anyone objects, people have time and time again have claimed that soldiers jobs aren't to question orders, there job is to do them without questioning.

scooter_the_shooter

08-09-2005, 17:14

Al Khalifah

08-09-2005, 17:15

Al Khalifah, that isn't the point. The point is that they could die, not how many will. And if the state forces people to join the army, then all of that blood is on the state's hands.
I was never suggesting that those serving under this scheme would have to serve in the armed forces and I certainly wasn't suggesting that they would be forced into front-line duty. I can't imagine anything more frightening that having some rookie serving alongside me in a combat situation if he didn't know what he was doing. Besides the blood of the casualties of an offensive operation, arguably, is always on the state's hands.

And what about education, or college? Learning about real things is more important than learning about how to kill or to stand strait at attention or take orders like a damn animal, or rather, a machine.
Yes, knowing about matrix multiplications has really helped in my civilian life and the number of times I have needed to know the plate tectonic structure of the Indian sub-continent, where as knowing how to repair vehicle engines, wire electronics and work in a team is virtually useless.

rasoforos

08-09-2005, 17:19

People with your attitude about the army piss me off to no end steppe. Your right to slander the army like you just did is protected by them. They are the greatest people in this country. The army is what you need.

Isnt that a bid too dogmatic?

On what grounds is the army the best people in your or any other countrY?

And this 'protected by them' is just an empty argument if you think about it. In a democratic society the right of the army to even exist is derived from the will of the people, in essence the army is 'protected by them' We could go on and on about empty arguments like that forever ~D

Some people will just go on automatic berserk if anyone mentions an army...

scooter_the_shooter

08-09-2005, 17:23

Steppe in a way your are in the army, well your in the militia

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 17:43

Well, as long as they don't expect me to cut my hair, dress up, salute or do anything, I don't care if I am considered in the milita.
I'm afraid I don't have a very good view of the army. I don't particullary dislike soldiers themselves, but I despise the orginization itself.

Red Harvest

08-09-2005, 17:44

Wow I didnt realise I died when I joined the Corps ~D

I guess your right making men out of boys will ruin their lifes forever.

Were you conscripted to fight in a war against your will? It's a big difference from volunteering. Personally, I don't want someone next to me who doesn't share the same committment. This is an example of how to weaken the military, not strengthen it.

The original point was correct, by being forced into the military, the person would literally have their life and limb put directly at risk, especially now. As such, it should be reserved for times of crisis.

P.S. My grandfather insisted on joining the Marines in WWII when he became eligible. For some reason they were not going to take him (probably height at the time.) He told them all his friends and brothers were Marines, and that if he could not be a Marine he would become a conscientious objector. He became a Marine. ~;)

Gawain of Orkeny

08-09-2005, 18:02

Were you conscripted to fight in a war against your will? It's a big difference from volunteering.

Practicly. I got my draft notice and joined the Marines to spite them. ~D

Personally, I don't want someone next to me who doesn't share the same committment. This is an example of how to weaken the military, not strengthen it.

This is why we have a volunter army today.

The original point was correct, by being forced into the military, the person would literally have their life and limb put directly at risk, especially now. As such, it should be reserved for times of crisis.

No where did I advocate the draft or forcing people into the army. I advocate a choice. Sure you could choose the armed forces but that would be voluntary.

Address the point not your percieved one.

scooter_the_shooter

08-09-2005, 18:23

Well, as long as they don't expect me to cut my hair, dress up, salute or do anything, I don't care if I am considered in the milita.
I'm afraid I don't have a very good view of the army. I don't particullay disliker soldiers themselves, but I despise the orginization itself.

What will you do if we are invaded and you are called up for the militia, flee to canada???

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 18:55

Invaded by who and for what reason? If my family was threatened, I would protect them. Whether or not I joined the militia would depend on how I could protect them the best.

scooter_the_shooter

08-09-2005, 19:13

Steppe if you have ever said the pledge you better damn well stay here and not flee to canada.

Also and in what way would you protect them? violence,hide them,head to canada ~:confused:

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 19:15

I don't know. If someone is actually trying to kill them, I'd kill to protect my loved ones. If fleeing was the best option to protect my loved ones, then I would go with them. My point is is that I wouldn't join the militia to go and fight in Texas while abandoning my family. My family and friends override my country.

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 19:18

Wait. Just because it's popular with the majority doesn't mean unwilling people will still be drafted. Ever heard of pacifists or conciencious objectors?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-09-2005, 19:20

Again no one here is asking for a draft to be instituted. Heaven forbid.

Steppe Merc

08-09-2005, 19:29

Gawian, Cube is asking for it. And that is unaceptable. No one should have to fight for something they don't want to, it is just cruel.

Don Corleone

08-09-2005, 20:07

First off, I don't see how everyone immediately jumped to the conclusion that Gawain was talking about conscripting every 18 year old male. He clearly stated he included the peace corps, legal aid, and other community service type organizations. Second, even if he was, I think it'd be fair. I don't think volunteer professional armies are good for the country long term, as it encourages a certain recklessness with the military. Despite what people in the backroom think, its military commanders that least want armed conflicts. They'd rather deal with problems BEFORE it comes to that. After all, they, and their soldiers, are the ones that get to do the dying. Finally, I don't think our government could cope with universal military service. There's the issue of a hell of a pricetag. But two or three years in the service of your nation, doing something productive, is certainly acceptable.

Red Harvest

08-09-2005, 20:24

Address the point not your percieved one.

You should review your own comments that I was responding to. You made it appear that forcing people into the military was a good thing. That wasn't me, it was you.

Red Harvest

08-09-2005, 20:31

First off, I don't see how everyone immediately jumped to the conclusion that Gawain was talking about conscripting every 18 year old male.

Later on however Gawain went a different direction with it. He might not have intended to, but he did.

I guess I find it ironic that a libertarian would be promoting conscription into any form of govt. service.

Kagemusha

08-09-2005, 21:58

Im not flaming at anyone.I want to ask you guys a question because my country was brought up in this discussion.Do you really think that Finland has any other alternative but to maintain Europes biggest reserve to hold any candle between West and East.At this time most of the EU´s Border with Russia is the same as Finlands border with Russia.I cant talk but for myself but i think it was a honour to go to army and learn to protect my country.Because history has showned that no one else will protect our little nation of 5 million people from over 1 hundred million Russia but we the citizens of Finland.Modern Finish military doctrine is based on that the best of our troops react immediately to foreign invasion and these men will by time for rest of the troops to be organized. In practical sense.Young men die to bye time for the older ones to defend really their homes,wifes and children.So if someone would invade us they would be against 500 000 of our soldiers.Fighting Guerrilla warfare in the terrain they know.Normally you have to be prepared to have 3/ 1ratio of losses for attacker to take us.So who would sacrifice 1.5 million soldiers,to take this land that only natural resource is wood?

Don Corleone

08-09-2005, 22:02

Normally you have to be prepared to have 3/ 1ratio of losses for attacker to take us.So who would sacrifice 1.5 million soldiers,to take this land that only natural resource is wood?

That's not true!!! We're after your reindeer meat and your lovely Finnish broads (tyttöystäväs), and one of these days, we're going to get them!!!

Kagemusha

08-09-2005, 22:05

That's not true!!! We're after your reindeer meat and your lovely Finnish broads, and one of these days, we're going to get them!!!

Don my friend.You are always wellcomed here,just dont bring your army with you. ~;)

Don Corleone

08-09-2005, 22:14

Don my friend.You are always wellcomed here,just dont bring your army with you. ~;)

Did I say that right? Very important word to know... in American slang, there's probably more words dedicated to 'pretty girl' than any other concept. ~D

Kagemusha

08-09-2005, 22:21

Did I say that right? Very important word to know... in American slang, there's probably more words dedicated to 'pretty girl' than any other concept. ~D

Yes.I understand the word broad=ladyeh, ~D we have very many names for a female also.But nice thing about Finnish language is that we have more curse words then any Indo European language.Try saying Perkele=Lucifer.I think that word is really diabolic.How does it sound to you?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-09-2005, 23:52

You should review your own comments that I was responding to. You made it appear that forcing people into the military was a good thing. That wasn't me, it was you.

I have and as usual your way off base. I listed but a few CHOICES in my first post and yes the service was ONE CHOICE not the only CHOICE.

Red Harvest

08-10-2005, 06:11

I have and as usual your way off base. I listed but a few CHOICES in my first post and yes the service was ONE CHOICE not the only CHOICE.

We weren't discussing the first post at the time...so no, I wasn't off base.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-10-2005, 06:15

We weren't discussing the first post at the time...so no, I wasn't off base.

Your nit picking. Show me where I advocated the draft? This is starting to remind me of my old spats with Jag ~D .

Red Harvest

08-10-2005, 07:21

Your nit picking. Show me where I advocated the draft? This is starting to remind me of my old spats with Jag ~D .

See post #35. You were trying to refute the comment about militiary conscription's potential for taking life or limb. I can't believe I'm having to spell this out to you. You keep going on about how I never provide you sufficient proof, yet I have to hit you over the head with a 2x4 on something this simple? :dizzy2:

Al Khalifah

08-10-2005, 14:03

Red, that's hardly what Gawain was implying by what he wrote in that post. He was merely trying to suggest that those who do military service come out better people for it, he was not advocating the draft.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-10-2005, 14:36

Obviously he has something personal against me to make such a claim.

The idea of forced community service in the army or some area is just cruel and unusual. You're taking away the best years of their life, and possibly their whole life in the case of the army.

Wow I didnt realise I died when I joined the Corps

I guess your right making men out of boys will ruin their lifes forever.

How the hell do you get me supporting the draft from this? The only one who has said I back the draft is YOU.

Red Harvest

08-10-2005, 15:07

Obviously he has something personal against me to make such a claim.

How the hell do you get me supporting the draft from this? The only one who has said I back the draft is YOU.

You are outright lying now. About the time you started this I saw your post in another thread stating how everyone needed to have some military experience, like you. In this thread you are defending the draft despite the life and limb aspect. You try to cover yourself with the community service line, but your motives are transparent. Watching you twist and turn through various threads is a bizarre trip.

You call others conflicted yet you claim to be a Libertarian who:
1. Doesn't support the personal liberties half of libertarianism. (Sort of the "didn't inhale" approach.)
2. Completely swallows the extreme Right wing philosophy and then regurgitates it here in ten thousand posts.
3. Says he doesn't ever vote for Republicans...yet somehow idolizes them and supports them on virtually every issue.
4. Supports mandatory service.

If that's Libertarianism then I'm the pope.

Ser Clegane

08-10-2005, 15:15

The idea of forced community service in the army or some area is just cruel and unusual.

Actually I wouldn't go that far. Here in Germany we have this kind of mandatory service for male citizens.
You either join the army or you do service in e.g. a hospital or nursing home

Currently you have to serve 9 months in either the army or in community service - during the late 80s it used to be 15 months army or 20 months community service, also until the 80s the army was the clear default option - you had to apply for community service based on "conscentious reasons", however, this request was denied very often.

You also received some payment, however, at a very low level (payment for army service was much lower as for community service as you received free food, clothing and lodging in the army ~;) ).

Up to the 1980s there was a lot of opposition to this mandatory service as
a) you could not freely choose between army and community service
b) it was longer than it is today
c) the threat of a war with our Eastern neighbours was still somewhat realistic

Nowadays, with the free choice between army and community service I think the sytem is OK (and 9 months are not that long).

From time to time the discussion comes up whether the compulsory military service should be disposed completely, as a smaller but professional army seems much more feasible in current times, however, if this lead to a general disposal of service, including the civil community service, our hospitals and other institutions might run into quite a problem ~;)

Don Corleone

08-10-2005, 15:19

If there are service oriented options, such as hospitals, Ser Clegnane, why are women exempted?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-10-2005, 15:26

You are outright lying now. About the time you started this I saw your post in another thread stating how everyone needed to have some military experience, like you. In this thread you are defending the draft despite the life and limb aspect. You try to cover yourself with the community service line, but your motives are transparent. Watching you twist and turn through various threads is a bizarre trip.

THats total BS. I think everryone needs a little dicipline true that is sadly lacking in most youth these days. Again going into the service is one way to achieve this but I never said it was the only way. Let me state this once more emphaticly I am opposed to the draft.

1. Doesn't support the personal liberties half of libertarianism. (Sort of the "didn't inhale" approach.)

For instance?

2. Completely swallows the extreme Right wing philosophy and then regurgitates it here in ten thousand posts.

Yes like legalizing prostition and drugs.

3. Says he doesn't ever vote for Republicans...yet somehow idolizes them and supports them on virtually every issue.

More BS. I oppose them on their spending habits and immigration policies just for starts. Their almost as bad as democrats on those issues.

4. Supports mandatory service.

Not in the armed forces I dont. Get over me it will set you free.

Ser Clegane

08-10-2005, 15:31

If there are service oriented options, such as hospitals, Ser Clegnane, why are women exempted?

A very good question.
Originally this question seemed less important as army service was the mandatory default option, and the civil community service was the exception for people who could make a credible case that military service would violate their believes and would go completely against their conscience.
As military service for women seemd out of question at that time women, were exempted.

As civil service instead of military service became more and more common, the question why women are exempted became increasingly valid. One argument was that While men lose a year of their life to mandatory service, most women do an equivalent service to society as they pause their jobs during their pregnancy and when they raise children.

As women nowadays tend to have less children and it becomes more common that the father of a child takes at least part of the parental leave that is granted, this argument loses some of its validity as well.

The exemption of women from the service, certainly is one of the arguments that is used pro the complete disposal of community service, and I somewhat tend to agree that any argument for the exemption of women from mandatory service seems rather weak nowadays.

R'as al Ghul

08-10-2005, 15:33

If there are service oriented options, such as hospitals, Ser Clegnane, why are women exempted?

Women in Germany only have the possibility to join the Bundeswehr
since about 2-3 years. They aren't drafted, they are volunteers.
The men who are drafted have to decide whether they do their service
in the army or in a civil sector.
I decided for the civil sector, back in the days, and those people are
badly needed. The number of men being drafted is always decreasing.
In effect this lowers the number of personnel for the civil sector.

EDIT: Ups, Ser beat me to it.