6th MOD almost complete: Battle of Manzikert, 1271

[verysoon]

Lordy, this one has taken over 8 hours to get right and I've still got to test it out some.

For some unknown reason, I can now use several units that just the other day lagged up my system if I tried to include them.

Oh, and this is strange. I used ByzantineCavalry (archers) and they don't/didn't have an icon. No problem. As the battle dragged on, I noticed it suddenly did have an icon...the same as Alan Mercenaries.

I hope to have this out Tuesday evening/night.

[This message has been edited by verysoon (edited 07-23-2002).]

[barocca]

mate
i can only find 2 of your mods for download,
where are you hiding the rest?

[barocca]

that'll teach me to check my email first
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


==========
I have placed a couple of them up,
Very good fun!

will have to wait till tomorrow to test TomShoals,
PLUS tomorrow i hope to release a fresh one of my own creation (a heavy and a lite version)

------------------
Clan Doragons Medieval Website
Mods, Unit Descriptions and more
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 07-23-2002).]

[Kraxis]

Well, I used the Byzantine Cavalry in one of my mods and I copied the Turcoman icon (they are quite similar units and even use the same sprites).

[Emp. Conralius]

trust me guys, download this one. It's a great battle whether you're the Seljuks or the Byzantines.

[chilliwilli]

Nice, I love this battle if you need any help I know just about every thing about the battle.

P.S. By the way its 1071. Wow I just realized this is my first org post ever. Pretty starnge considering I have over 100 at totalwar.com forums, oh well.

[Stephen Hummell]

Where is it. At the Doragon site?

[barocca]

It will be as soon as I upload the new page
gimme about 20 minutes
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Clan Doragons Medieval Website
Mods, Unit Descriptions and more
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

[barocca]

and verysoon's mods are up!

and chilli,
HEEEEELLPPPPPP
i get SLAUGHTERED!!!

[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 07-24-2002).]

[TakaRatta Yamamoto]

You got any Varangians Gaurdsmen in this mod?? This is the battle in which they were pretty much killed to a man by retreating into a church, and the enemy set it on fire, burning to death a good number of varangians...

Just curious, this is one of my favorite historical battles..

[chilliwilli]

Couple suggestions for the mod. 1. Byzantines had no archers in the battle. 2. It was an army of mostly mercenaries, so there should be 2 units of kataphraktoi(one for Romanus IV Diogenes and one for Andronicus), byzantine infantry is fine, replace the other kataphract units with Armenian heavy calvary since they actually had armenian mercenaries. 3. There should be 1 unit of Cuman mercenary calvary for The Turks to represent the Turks that deserted the Byzantines the ngiht before the battle and joined the Turkish side since they were actually Cumans(this is optional). and 4. Turks had no infantry in the battle it was almost all calvary archers with some light calvary that was used for ambushes later in the battle. 5. Also the battle was fought in 1071 not 1271. You also may want to weaken the Byzantine rear guard by decreasing their morale or valour since they were the first to rout because they misinterpreted the signal the imperial standard was giving(they thought it said the emperor had fallen instead of retreat and panicked.) and were encouraged to leave thanks to Androncus' treachery.

And barocca I did pretty good, but didn't win thats for sure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. I killed 2050 and captured alot to, but I forgot how many.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-24-2002).]

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote Originally posted by chilliwilli:
Couple suggestions for the mod. 1. Byzantines had no archers in the battle. 2. It was an army of mostly mercenaries, so there should be 2 units of kataphraktoi(one for Romanus IV Diogenes and one for Andronicus), byzantine infantry is fine, replace the other kataphract units with Armenian heavy calvary since they actually had armenian mercenaries. 3. There should be 1 unit of Cuman mercenary calvary for The Turks to represent the Turks that deserted the Byzantines the ngiht before the battle and joined the Turkish side since they were actually Cumans(this is optional). and 4. Turks had no infantry in the battle it was almost all calvary archers with some light calvary that was used for ambushes later in the battle. 5. Also the battle was fought in 1071 not 1271. You also may want to weaken the Byzantine rear guard by decreasing their morale or valour since they were the first to rout because they misinterpreted the signal the imperial standard was giving(they thought it said the emperor had fallen instead of retreat and panicked.) and were encouraged to leave thanks to Androncus' treachery.

And barocca I did pretty good, but didn't win thats for sure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. I killed 2050 and captured alot to, but I forgot how many.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-24-2002).][/QUOTE]

Hey, a lot of that stuff is true, but most of the units you asked for are not in the demo. So I'de say he improvised very well...since there was only one type of merc unit in the demo....

[verysoon]

Quote Originally posted by chilliwilli:
Couple suggestions for the mod. 1. Byzantines had no archers in the battle. 2. It was an army of mostly mercenaries, so there should be 2 units of kataphraktoi(one for Romanus IV Diogenes and one for Andronicus), byzantine infantry is fine, replace the other kataphract units with Armenian heavy calvary since they actually had armenian mercenaries. 3. There should be 1 unit of Cuman mercenary calvary for The Turks to represent the Turks that deserted the Byzantines the ngiht before the battle and joined the Turkish side since they were actually Cumans(this is optional). and 4. Turks had no infantry in the battle it was almost all calvary archers with some light calvary that was used for ambushes later in the battle. 5. Also the battle was fought in 1071 not 1271. You also may want to weaken the Byzantine rear guard by decreasing their morale or valour since they were the first to rout because they misinterpreted the signal the imperial standard was giving(they thought it said the emperor had fallen instead of retreat and panicked.) and were encouraged to leave thanks to Androncus' treachery.

And barocca I did pretty good, but didn't win thats for sure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. I killed 2050 and captured alot to, but I forgot how many.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-24-2002).][/QUOTE]


Ok, it seems you know what your talking about. First..

Archers:I wasn't sure how many archers they -Byzantines- may have had. I may have had too many represented, but I'm sure they had some archers, although two units would have been better than the four I used.

Byzantine Infantry: My source says most of them were either killed before the main battle or deserted. I put them in for other reasons.

Armenian heavy: Crashed my system.

Lack of Cuman Turks: I was aware they were there, or some Turks, but forgot why I didn't use them.They may not have worked..I was going to substitue Tocupola(sp) light cavalry -archers- but didn't

Turks had no infantry in the battle: Don't know about that. I'm sure they had *some*,although they were primarlily light cavarly. Besides, there's only five units and two of them are peasants.

Varangians Gaurdsmen Crashed my system.

Androncus' treachery & Weak AI, heres the deal. It's hard to *show* treachery without doing some things I didn't/couldn't do. I'm working on the battle of Bosworth and I'm having some of the same issues. Richards rear guard deserted him in the battle, but on this one, I have them joining Henry Tudor, ditto for the Stanley brothers, although I believe some of their foreces did joing Henry Tudor at the end of the battle.

The main reason is, as you know, the AI simply isn't up to human standards. If you don't make the Turks very tough in stats, then it's a calk walk. But by the same token, if you weaken some of your units..you might as well not have them there, since the Turks/AI have been beefed up.

Oh, date of battle, yes, I put down the wrong date.

Oh, and thanks for commenting. It's good getting feedback.

[Stephen Hummell]

How do we play AS the Turks.

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote Originally posted by Stephen Hummell:
How do we play AS the Turks.[/QUOTE]

Player::"Alp Arslan" 12 5 ARTIFICIAL "Arslan" 5 true 0 0 180
CATHOLIC_CULTURE


Player::"Diogenes Romanus" 2 2 LOCAL "Romanus" 6 false
0 0 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE

...and below that a bit...

//triggers
Trigger::1, BT_INCAPACITATE, factions 12
Trigger::2, BT_INCAPACITATE, factions 2

I believe all you have to do is change "ARTIFICIAL" in Alp Arslan's line
with LOCAL and replace the LOCAL line in Romus's with ARTIFICIAL

[Krypteia]

nice mod , slaughterd the seljuks second time round hehe

[Stephen Hummell]

The turks were nomads from the steppes like the mongols and were made mostly of cavalry archers. They were newly converted to islam which made them go after Byzantium. Although the arabs were muslim they still massacred many arabs. They were the one that caused the 1st and 2nd crusade and were the only muslims to really fight against the crusaders. Most of the kingdoms in the holy land at the time were turkish kingdoms. The egyptians didn't fight in the crusades till saladin who was turkish became king of Egypt somehow through his uncle. And then when Nur-ed-din or someone like that died he became king of one of the many turkish kingdoms. Then when his family was overthrown by the mamluks the Crusaders never had a chance of beating Baybers and his muslim military machine. One thing that split the Turks and Egyptians apart were the sunni and shiite muslims, the Egyptians were sunni and the turks were shiite, or was it the other way around. Oh well this is why Saladin had so many atempts on his life by the Hashishin, when he became sultan of Egypt. A whole lotta crap in the medieval history of Islam. Any way the turks would circle the enemy many times and in the process nail the enemy with arrows until the enemy was wavering then move in for the kill.

[This message has been edited by Stephen Hummell (edited 07-24-2002).]

[Stephen Hummell]

Thanks Emp.

[Emp. Conralius]

Armenian Heavy Cav do work...

[Stephen Hummell]

Now I know why when I was watching the world cup, so many Turkish women looked oriental.

[chilliwilli]

I'm positive about The Turks since their armies are very similar to The Mongols and the Turks were nomads and didn't use infantry since almost their entire population was made up of the Turkoman tribes who live on their horses. You are absolutely right about the AI not being able to react like human, but I just thought it should be put in since thats the most famous part of the battle when the units on the rear and flanks misinterpret the imperial standard. Also my sources state that The Byzantines had mostly calvary(2 units of Kataphract and the others were Armenian, German, and Bulgarian mercanaries) and some byzantine infantry. The archers arent all that bad since they actually give them a chance, but I just would like to make the battle as accurate as possible. One more thing by the way I would like to see the Byzantines start out in the actual formation they were in. It is the traditional formation of the army. It is a long line several ranks deep with The calvary on the ends protecting the flanks. Romanus is at the center with Bryennius to his left and another general named Alyattes on his right, and of course Andronicus Ducas is in control of the rear guard. I know I seemed to critize you alot in the last post, but you actually did pretty good considering this is a very hard battle to recreate since 1. problems with rear guard's AI. 2. The fact that many sources disagree with eachother and its hard very hard to find info on this battle unlike The Battle of Hastings or something like that. I also didnt know that the units I mentioned crashed the demo sorry.



[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-24-2002).]

[chilliwilli]

Stephen, The reason The Turks attcaked Byzantium was not because they were Muslims it was because The BYzantines marched on them taking back some border forts and later The Battle of Manzikert happened. The Turks did not want to fight The Byzantines(They even sent an emmisary right before the battle that offered a generous peace wich Romanus rejected.) because they had their hands full with The Fatmid dynasty of Egypt(Shiite Musliims), who were more of a threat than Byzantium.

[Stephen Hummell]

I'm just getting into medieval muslim history so don't kill me. I just joined Konya so I have to learn about medieval muslim history.

[chilliwilli]

No prob just pointing it out.

[Stephen Hummell]

You should join Konya Chilliwilli, It's about the muslim factions conquering the west.

[chilliwilli]

It does sound interesting, but I've already petitioned for OOOO membership and just handed in the competence test, so I should be getting an email back soon. If I don't get in I may take a look at Konya since I'm more interested in the east than the west.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-24-2002).]

[Stephen Hummell]

Well it just started. Ask Rokkaku or Emp. Conralius.