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Kraxis
08-30-2005, 14:08
This is the fourth, and possibly the most ambitious of my Interactive Histories. Because of the wealth of information we have, yet not always easily accessable it might contain several odd cases of divisions and commanders. Also certain people might not behave as they did, but I will try my best. And last, the initial scene is being played out as a hypothetical case, not a historical case.
In essence, this installment is more of a game and much less of a true "What if" than the others given the complexity of the situation.

Having followed Vykka's very good, and easy to follow Alternate History I have opted to change the rules a little. I had actually wanted to do that for a long time but I didn't know what to do. Now I do.
From now on it will be played out like Vykka's thread. First three with a tiebreaker in the first. This should correct the overhasty decisions a bit as now it isn't paramount to be first.

We start out as von Manstein at the end of his counteroffensive in 1943.

Chapter 1: The Decision
22 March 1943
Sitting in the plane towards Rastenburg you can't help but feel that you should leave the front just yet. The fighting hasn't eased up, nor has the advance stopped, your men needs you. Yet you know that within a few days the mud will finally bring a complete halt to your counteroffensive... What a splendid performance. You smile at your achievements, and this time because Hitler let you have total freedom to sucker in the Russians. Yes, it is certainly something to smile about. But you still think what would happen if the rain suddenly stopped and you were all the way back in Rastenburg, well then Hoth would show his initiative again. You put the thoughts away and begin to think of the discussion ahead.

For hours you sit and deliberate the next course of action, but there is little choice really. Two options are clear for you, you opt to call them the 'Forehand Stroke' and 'Backhand Stroke'. The 'Forehand Stroke', the less attractive in your mind, involves an attack on the base of the Kursk salient, jutting into your front. The 'Backhand Stroke' on the other hand is a deliberate version of the counteroffensive now winding down, one that very much is in your favour, but obviously will be hard to convince Hitler of.

You finally enter the waitingroom in the Wolf's Lair. It seems that Hitler is holding court today. Matters of importance is obviously stuffed into a sinlge great day for the Führer. Typical of him.
Anyway, you look around the room and notice Sper sitting with his small crowd of technicians and experts at a table, clearly confident and cooly intelligent he is a most effective 'Führer Persuader' as he is being dubbed. Further in the room you notice your old comrade and opponent, Heinz Guderian. Recently given the position of General-Inspector of Armoured Troops he is now in a postion of power, one effectively at the hight of OKW and OKH.
Sitting alone at small table with some cookies you see General der Infanterie Kurt Zeitzler, the Chief of Staff to Hitler. Also known as General Fireball for his vicious temper, something that meant he was anything but timid in front of Hitler.
The last personr of interest you see is Field Marshall Keitel Chief of OKW, whatever his position you are certain that this man is close to Hitler, so close that you wonder what he is doing out here, and talking with him is Colonel-General Jodl, Chief of Staff OKW. Those two are an interestingly close pair when it comes to Hitler.

As Hitler is occupied for the moment you all have to wait and you have some more time to think up what to say and do. Quickly you realize that having an allied with you when you are to persuade Hitler would be perfect. Assaulting Hitler from two sides often had the effect of Hitler becoming disorientated and backing down, while he was most resilient to individuals. But who should you choose to persuade? And further, you haven't made up your mind about which 'Stroke' to present to Hitler. What to do?

A1: Persuade Speer. You know him, and you like him, not as a friend but as a professional. He is intelligent and on a very good footing with Hitler. Often his very presence calms the Führer. His position as Minister of Armaments is very strong. Hitler likes statistics and Speer can present them in ample amounts, you could gain a lot of advantage from that. Too bad that the man is not of the military and has little knowledge of battles, but perhaps that is a strength as Hitler has lost a lot of trust in the generals.

A2: Persuade Guderian. His new position brings him much closer to Hitler than you, he only has to report to him. He is a sort of wildcard at the Wolf's Lair now, as he will often bring the whole place into a flying battle of words. His tactical and strategic insight would be helpful, but he is not your most staunch supporter and you have several times clashed previously, in fact you sighed with relief when he was removed from his position in 41.

A3: Persuade Zeitzler. Now here we have a kindred spirit. He will, like you, talk back to the Führer if he feels like it. He has an aggressive spirit on the field so he will most certainly be in favour of your 'Forehand Stroke'. Sadly the man has a tendency to lose himself if he is met with opposition and he laso tent to push people towards a much more staunch view of their own. Expect trench warfare in the conferenceroom with Zeitzler.

A4: Persuade Keitel and Jodl. They are intimates of Hitler, they meet with him daily and both are of the Prussian tradition. So they have managed to get clear of Hitler's opposition to that cliche. The fact that there are two of might strengthen your position much more, but you also dislike both for their lack of spine in front of Hitler. Further, both are attached to OKW the staff resposible for everything but the East Front, Hitler might jump at it if he dislikes it.

B1: Try to use the 'Forehand Stroke' as your operational agenda. By choosing it you will try to force Hitler to grant you a few weeks of rest, replacements and reinforcements, especially in tanks. Then attack somewhere in early April, at the latest in late April. True the ground will be boggy but the Russians will be equally hampered and they will be weakened from the counteroffensive.

B2: Go with the 'Backhand Stroke', where you will leave a section of the front weak for the Russians to attack. It allows you to use the entire rasputitsa as a buildup and should end up with an easy maneuvered battle, the strength of the German army. The large salient in the south, created by Army Group South is very tempting.

Take into account that all four 'allies' might have a preference to operational behaviour, so think it over.

AggonyDuck
08-30-2005, 14:21
I'd go for A1 and B2. Just seem like the most reasonable choices to me.
Speer seems to be the one who is the most trustworthy and the 'backhand stroke' seems to be the better of the two IMO. ~:)

dgfred
08-30-2005, 14:44
Sure did hate the whole idea of the 'forehand' plan :furious3: , so I guess I

go with the 'backhand' with Speer and Zeitzler ~;) . No way would I go with

Jodl & Keitel- they would just turn to the side Hitler had a preference for.

Kraxis
08-30-2005, 15:48
I kind of forgot to mention this in the first part. Hitler has last word on the operational business. Some time soon we determine how we will persuade Hitler.

So if you want you can change your votes.

MoROmeTe
08-30-2005, 16:02
I say A2 and B2... Guderian is the best of the mentioned General's and most likely to persuade Hitler. And the second plan has its chances...

discovery1
08-30-2005, 16:21
Hmmm, I don't know.While Guadarian has the experience to back it, I'm not sure that Hitler would be too keen to listen to him. Guadarian I don't think was on very good terms with Hitler.

I would go Speer also. Competent, trustworthy(at least in Adolf's eyes I think) and he doesn't know much of war so he will be easily persuaded either way.

Needless to say, backhand blow is the way to go(I think.....)

Kagemusha
08-30-2005, 19:16
I would say A4 and B2.While Keitel and Jodl are spineless they are still ambitious.They know you and if you can sell the plan to them, they can convince Hitler that its good.While they will take all the credit you can make it work.

Kraxis
08-30-2005, 23:34
The Recruit
As you look around the room you begin to evaluate the candidates. At once you dismiss 'Lakeitel' and Jodl, they would end up stabbing you in the back as soon as you went before Hitler. You can't forget Hitler's comment that Keitel is as loyal "as a dog". No the 'Strutting Fool' and the 'Blustering Moron' should not go with you.
You frown at Zeitzler. A hugely competent staff soldier, but not much of an operational commander. And his often brash and aggressive ways would end up antagonizing Hitler, despite his respect for the general. That belief alone has to reeling from him.
Guderian... Ahhhh.... Good old Schneller Heinz. You are certain that he would love your Backhand Stroke, and his position would make it happen. But you realize that he would have to work with Kluge to an important degree, and they absolutely hate each other. Kluge has several times mentioned duelling, he has even asked you to be his second. Not a chance there. Besides you and Heinz are not even on friendly terms, he has often critized you and given few positive comments. You know that he admires you, and you him, but this is personal. You don't want him that close, it would be far too uncomfortable. And it has been said: "Too many cooks spoils the food." Very suitable here.
Finally you reach Speer. His non-military position has great appeal to you. This way you can bombard Hitler from not only two individuals, but from two very seperate branches of society and command. You are on the other hand not so sure about his position towards you pet operation, but if he is opposed to it you can likely convince him easily. His knowledge of military matters is simply too little for him to understand what you are talking about. Ignorance makes a great ally.

You walk over to the table. Speer looks up at you, his eyes warm and friendly, then stands up and shakes your hand. "Field Marshall, it is so nice to see you. I can't believe what you have done on the Eastern Front. The numbers are simply astounding, so many tanks, so many guns, captured and destroyed. I have estimated several months worth of effort from the Soviet Union."
"Thank you Minister Speer. It is not over yet, however it is winding down as we speak. But I'm not here for trivialities or smalltalk, we need to talk seriously now."
Speer ushers away his experts and numbercrunchers and beckons for you to sit at the table. "Speak up... I fear I can't help you much in military matters, but for some reason I believe that is what you wanted to speak with me about."
You chuckle lightly. "Indeed it is. We need to deliver a serious blow to the Red Army. This years there is no room for strategic maneuvers, we should forget Moscow and the Caucasus for the time being and concentrate on removing the best the Red Army has to offer."
"Agreed, but I fail to see how. I mean, I know there is large bulge in our line around Kursk."
"Well, the bulge is tempting and since even you, no offence, know it is a good target we can be sure everybody does. We should ignore it for now, weaken our lines and appear exhausted from the counteroffensive."
"But that would just invite the Russians to attack with their strongest..." Speer then lights up in smile. "You sneaky bastard. You want to draw in the Red Army in a massive version of your counteroffensive!"
You smile and shrug your shoulders.
"I cannot but stay positive towards it. We might get a lot of important metals from the occupied territories, but if we were to detroy yet another, and much larger echelon of Soviet armour and equipment, we would have a free hand for the rest of the year. Also we could strengthen our position free of commitment, and my men could finally iron out the problems with the new Panther tank." Speer mumbles a short curse under his breath against the Panther.
"I was hoping you would agree it is a good chance, and now it is my hope that I could bring you with me when I'm to discuss this with the Führer. Your scematics, tables and general good position with him would go a long towards convincing him."
"Fine... But how. We have to have a strategy, or else Hitler will just duck evade, and talk about other matters. We can't let that happen."

So, you have recruited Speer with great success, but now the two of you have to find a strategy to overpower Hitler's legend ability to dodge othe people's opinion.

1: Lay out the plan before Hitler, and stand on the right to finish it (you know Hitler will try to interfere). Then have Speer use his influence and his persuasive talk to batter at Hitler with the strategic and statistical advantages. Then when Hitler grows irritated you step in and assumes the attack with the proof of your recent campaign as well as the moraleboost such a complicated strategy would grant the troops. A straightforward tactic that gives you good flexibility.

2: Let Speer soften Hitler up with a wish for a bluntening of the Russian armour. Then present the plan as a solution to that problem while Speer cheerfully agrees with it. Effectively the two of you leaving out Hitler of the talk. Thus undermining his own opinion. A tactic worthy of an intelligence agent.

3: Rush in and in a bouyant mood present a cheap and effective way to contain the Russians while leading up to a more general offensive later on. When Hitler begins to complain Speer will soak up his attacks with his statistical evidence and his own complaints of an active battle, particularly noting the problems of the Panther. Meanwhile you use logical arguments to force Hitler to conceede points until he finds himself in a position where he can see the greatness of the plan. A psychological persuation.

4: Remain silent while Hitler either waits or talks with Speer. Then present your plan when he calls for your reason to be here. Flow with Hitler's attacks on it, make small concessions and in general appease him enough for him to finally agree with the plan. Have Speer support you now and then to make certain that Hitler does not push his demands too far, and in the end out loud say that it is a great plan in terms of production and strategic demands. You dance like butterfly and sting like a bee.

MoROmeTe
08-31-2005, 03:04
For me 1 seems appropiate...

discovery1
08-31-2005, 03:30
The toughest part of the battle by far.

Not 4, too much will be given up I can see it now.

Nor 3, isn't Hitler starting to lose it?

2, I don't know. It seems odd that Speer should want to blunt the Russian armored forces or , but maybe it's just me.

I guess one....

dgfred
08-31-2005, 04:32
I believe #3 might work. Maybe Hitler wouldn't completely loose it on
Speer and you could still judge the situation somewhat, adding your
strong points if able.

Geoffrey S
08-31-2005, 14:44
2 sounds good. 4 would force too many concessions, 3 logical reasoning wouldn't really work on Hitler now, and 1 risks antagonizing Hitler.

SwordsMaster
08-31-2005, 16:06
2. If you dont ask him, how can he disagree?

Kagemusha
09-01-2005, 16:01
Number two. :bow:

Kraxis
09-02-2005, 00:09
It seems there is a majority for #3, but the rules are the first three, and they have spoken, it is #1 again.

Battle before Battle
In the few minutes you have you manage to lay out the plan for Speer, and he agrees with you. When you are finished he comments that this is certainly not his style, but then again he is not used to fight with Hitler like you are. He does like though, that he can be a knowing friend for Hitler and that he doesn't have to talk strategy in military terms. Almost before he finishes his comments you are called in, and you make a little sigh of relief that you didn't opt to use a more complicated strategy.

As the two of you enter (Speer was forced to leave his personel behind as this is your audience) you see Dr. Morell scuttle across the room to a chair in a dark corner. Hitler is sitting in a padded chair at his small conversationtable, his eyes a bit dull. Due to your forceful and strong stride you cover Speer's more casual behavior and Hitler only notices him when you move towards the table, at this he jumps up with a unheard of (to you) big smile and exclaims: "Heil Speer." Speer returns both the smile and the greeting. You smack your heels together with a loud clack, the type which brings such delight to Hitler, then you nod towards him exclaiming: "Mein Führer." Finally it seems as if Hitler notices that it is you who has entered and not just some adjudant.
"Ahh, my dear von Manstein." At once he gets on with one of his interrogations. "How goes the battle? I keep hearing that we retake land every day. Do you expect a drive on Moscow?"
At the short pause you jump in.
"I'm sorry, but that is not possible now. We have used a lot of strength in this counterattack, and at the moment it is winding down due to exhaustion and the dreadful rains. I expect at least two weeks of silence."
Hitler is not impressed. "Rain, mud, snow, frost... You all complain of this, yet I managed to go through it all in the Great War. I ran through the kneedeep mud of the trenches every day. It was no hinderance to me. Yes it was certainly not pleasant, but I was a soldier, so are you."
You know that the truth is far more complicated than what Hitler will admit to, so you do not try to reason with him about it.
"However, the fact is that our armies are struck, and rather than sit around an complain that is it stuck we should use that lull to our advantage."
"Yes... yes... That is of course right."
"I have a plan for a major battle with the Russians here, one that in fact demands this lull. But I will have to demand that you listen to it in full."
Hitler is taken aback by this demand, but he quickly relaxes into the dull look again. "Sure... Just carry on."
"My plan is to recreate the conteroffensive but on a major scale." Already Hitler is discomforted, but you carry on. "The entire position of Army Group South is a salient of sorts, especially with the Soviet salient at Kursk. And as you know about 40% of their armour and about 50% of their motorized forces are concentrated there. It is a perfect position for a drive to the south along the lines of the recent attack, but this time on a far larger scale and far deeper into our rear."
Hitler shifts his seat, he is obviously very agitated already.
"Let's use this to our advantage. I propose that we leave the shoulder of the salient weak. The joint between 4th Panzer Army and 2nd Army is a perfect place for this. And if we can manage to present 4th as weak after the counteroffensive a major attack will be likely. Behind 2nd Army we will have Army Detachment Kempf, removed from the front because of 'refit', which isn't that far from the truth. We can attempt to appear to halt them by all means by throwing the Romanians and Hungarians in their way, they should soon buckle. And when the Soveit advance has reached across the Dnieper we cut their lines. Without fuel and ammunitions they will be forced to abandon their tanks and other vehicles, a rather nice loot. Meanwhil we will take around 300,000 prisoners of their best troops."

As soon as you are finished Hitler shake his head and gives a rumbling, until he finally speaks. "NO NO NO!!! Not a single meter of land! We will fight them where we stand! Have you got any idea of the strategic resources I have to manage?"
At this point Speer comes to your aid. "But Mein Führer, it will be a country for the most part already ravaged by the recent battles. There will be little lost. We have most of our resources far behind our lines."
Hitler is thrown off by this argument, clearly baffled he resumes his attack. "How do you know the Russians will attack there? And not against Leningrad for instance?"
"I can't..."
"Exactly!!!"
"But I can tell you this much. There is little to be gained from a major offensive in the north, the terrain is not good for mobile warfare and we would ample time to send reinforcements, if they did attack. Especially with Kempf at the rear, almost sitting on a major railway to the north. The north is safe."
"That is not a certain fact! And the Russians have more than enough tanks that can go through bad terrain rapidly."
Speer tries to help out once again. "But our own Panthers are on the way, and the Tiger is being built in ever higher numbers now. Both can go across terrain our earlier tanks couldn't. There is much that speaks for this. I have estimated that if the Russians uses a couple of weeks to reform their forces and strengthen the spearheads..." You quickly add "Three weeks sounds likely." "They will use what amounts to half a year worth of production of tanks and guns. While this in itself is not crippling they can't reform the remaining weakened troops in time."
You take over as Speer is moving into military matters where he is out of his league. "That's true. If they use all their production for the winter plus all their had in the salient then the loss of that will be serious. We must assume the troops that remain in the salient are those weakened in the counteroffensive. They will be low on everything as priority went to the attacking forces."
Hitler is bloodred in the face, but when he looks at the sincere face of Speer he gives out a loud sigh and slumps into his chair. "Your arguments are valid... And I would love to do it, it is safe. But I can't. Can you imagine how the Italians and not the least the Romanians and Hungarians would react to a major Soviet offensive pointed right their way? I doubt even your impressive skills could reverse that. I tell you it simply won't happen..."
You realize that the battle is lost, Hitler is set in stone about a reactive summercampaign. When he conceeds the logic he is often very sincere. Now it is time for you to give a sigh. But at least you haven't soured Hitler, and he is still open for your words.

"In that case... I have another plan..." You present your 'Forehand Stroke' which Hitler is very positive towards. In the end you stress speed, because unlike the first option this is an operation of the direst speed given the fast rate of recuperation of the Russian forces. Hitler agrees to do it fast. Then he begins to talk with Speer about the Panthers he mentioned earlier. Now you realize how dangerous that could become to your timetable. They talk about the current lack of reliability in the Panthers, and you know the time for another verbal battle has come, and this time you fear you might not get the support of Speer. You have to be careful not to get outnumbered.

1: Agree that the Panther is important, but that the lack of reliability might be serious. Try to get Hitler to exchange the tanks of the less important areas to Panthers while you get the older reliable tanks for your attack.

2: Argue totally against the inclusion of Panthers. They are too unreliable, far too long in production and untested in battle. They are dangerous to such an important operation.

3: Accept that they have to be used, but steer Hitler towards sending them to the front right away, not hoarding them, so that they can get their systems worked out and be tested in battle prior to the big fight.

discovery1
09-02-2005, 03:39
Damn. That's terrible.....

Hmmm, I guess three. Hitler was a huge fan of the Panther, so I guess nothing will disswade him from using them. Just get them out NOW, since they weren't to great in reality and if there are only a few they ca't impact the outcome of the battle can they.

Alexander the Pretty Good
09-02-2005, 03:44
2 won't work, and Hitler will resent the suggestion.

1 wouldn't be so bad if you could test the ones in less important areas. But the Panther was a good tank, armor-wise and gun-wise. It just had problems (at least at first) with reliability. To my knowledge, so did a lot of the German tanks. So instead of 1, go for:

3

and pray that those Panthers get fixed quick.

I like these threads.

discovery1
09-02-2005, 03:47
Who cares if they work? Just make sure there are too few to influence the outcome of the battle.

PanzerJaeger
09-02-2005, 03:48
Hitler loved his toys, so 2 is totally out of the question.

Choosing between 1 and 3 is difficult.

Ive got to go with 1 though. The Pz.IV and Tiger crews were amazing at that time, and the disadvantages of the former were completely made up for by the skills of their crews.

Let Hitler play in an unimportant theater, and they'll be perfected in time for the next one.

Alexander the Pretty Good
09-02-2005, 03:48
That sounds more like option #1. I think the ideal solution would be a hybrid of 1 & 3.

Kagemusha
09-02-2005, 10:38
i would say number three. :bow:

Kraxis
09-02-2005, 12:51
The Flight of the Big Cat
As Speer talks about the Panther you can see how Hitler is impressed and almost like a little boy when he finds a new toy. He tried to rush past the trouble of the reliability of the Panther, but you jump at it.
"Mein Führer, the Panther is obviously going to be a superb tank in battle, and I woul lov to have it with me when we attack." You turn to Speer. "I urge you Minister Speer, to get as many as possible out on the front at once."
Hitler looks back and forth between the two of you, clearly filled with joy, but before he can say anything you do what must be done. "I want all the tanks you have at the moment, right now! The problems of the tanks going up in flames for no apparent reason is debilitating, I want that ironed out as soon as possible. And we all know that the best way to test a tank is on the battlefield. Send a lot of technicians as well." Now Hitler is less joyful.
"Wait a second Herr Field Marshall." Ow, when he uses titles it can't be good. "The Panther should stay in stock where the technicians can work on it, and it will remain a secret. It is important that we do not let this advantage slip."
"If we had time I would agree, but since time is of the essence we must send it out right away. The quirks and problems arise much faster at the front and can thus much easier be corrected, besides the time will not allow the Russians to react to the Panther, now will they need to as there won't be that many."
"Hmmm... I'm not happy about such a case. Remember what happened with the Tiger when my generals wanted it fast at the front?" You remember clearly what happened to it, though the general had a very small part in it.
"Yes, I remember. But this is an entirely new case. The Tiger was meant to be a rude shock, the Panther is meant to be a main battle tank, hiding it won't help much really."
"Very well, I can accept that, but you better not squander them."
Right then Speer joins in. "But we haven't produced more than some 20 operational tanks, what are they worth? Such a low number would be problematic for the logistics." Hitler of course favours Speer. "I hadn't thought of that, yes hold them back."
"No... The minor problem with the logistics will be overcome, we are already having several other trial units. What about von Richthofens' cannon Stukas? There are what, 6 of them? Have the Luftwaffe complained about that? In any case, we have to do this. I can't imagine the trouble if we lost some 100 tanks because of reliability in a major battle. This way we risk less, we are already far behind in tank numbers, we can't afford to have all the important tanks break down."
Speer nods, seeing your argument. And with his agreement Hitler is once again put in a tough spot, he has no more rational points to make. For another couple of minutes you fight Hitler over the issue, going through the entire range of mental states, you rage, argue, begs, urge, demands and even threaten to resign. In the end you are exhausted, but Hitler is even more so. He waves you off with a short comment. "Fine, have it your way!"

On the way out again you get a promiss from Speer that he will send the tanks and technicians to the front right away. And you make a point in creating the 1st Panther Experimental Battalion and assigning it to SS Panzer Das Reich.

Now that you have more or less free hands, you begin to wonder where you will find the reinforcements for your troops. You are aiming for an attack in early April, but the bad weather and mud might postpone that, you have to be prepared.

What are you going to do?

1: Deplete your own right flank down by the Sea of Azov. You already did that when you reinforced your troops forthe counteroffensive. It has since been brought up to strength more or less again. Of course it wouldn't be enough, and you think of taking armour from the north.

2: Demand armour from the west. Right now there are a number of Tigers lingering in Italy for no purpose really, problem is that Hitler is very 'protective' of Italy, and he might countermand your order so you will end up with a limited number of tanks from France and the Balkans.

3: Shuffle your own troops around concentrating them yourself, and have Model do the same in the north of the salient. At the same time you will place an ultimate demand on reinforcements and replacements from Germany. Effectively you won't deplete any area but then again they won't get up to strength at all.

4: Try to do it all. You won't be able to fight anybody over it for any length of time or with any strength, but if you succeed you will gain a most powerful force in a very short time. Also while you might fail in a few departments you might still get more out of it.

Kagemusha
09-02-2005, 14:03
number 4.You need every trick in the book to make this happen.

AggonyDuck
09-02-2005, 14:13
Number 4...as Kagemusha said we need every trick in the book.. ~:)

DemonArchangel
09-02-2005, 15:44
The problem here is that by depleting your flanks to assault the Kursk salient, you're tipping off Soviet intelligence to the fact that you're going launch an attack on the Kursk salient. Thus, the Soviets can react accordingly, either by heavily defending the Kursk salient, as they did in real life, or by attacking elsewhere, like at Kharkov for example.

What needs to be done here is to seize the intiative and to seize it with all possible speed, hit the Soviets when they least expect it, where they least expect it. Unfortunately, because an assault on the Kursk salient is the only real option (Hitler was right about the Italians, Romanian and Hungarians collapsing), either a ruse must be employed to draw the Russians out of the Kursk salient, or a strike must be made at all possible speed with the greatest concentration of firepower possible.

And btw, don't rely on Model, he's nothing but an idiot, in fact, deplete him to put emphasis on the southern part of the pincer.

discovery1
09-02-2005, 16:59
Drain the west. Huskey be damned. This is where the war will be won, and draining other areas of the east will tip off the reds like DA said.

Although if you think you can keep the withdraw of troops from else where in the east a secret, or do it faster than the reds can reinforce the salient, then draw them from everywhere.

dgfred
09-02-2005, 17:29
The problem here is that by depleting your flanks to assault the Kursk salient, you're tipping off Soviet intelligence to the fact that you're going launch an attack on the Kursk salient. Thus, the Soviets can react accordingly, either by heavily defending the Kursk salient, as they did in real life, or by attacking elsewhere, like at Kharkov for example.

What needs to be done here is to seize the intiative and to seize it with all possible speed, hit the Soviets when they least expect it, where they least expect it. Unfortunately, because an assault on the Kursk salient is the only real option (Hitler was right about the Italians, Romanian and Hungarians collapsing), either a ruse must be employed to draw the Russians out of the Kursk salient, or a strike must be made at all possible speed with the greatest concentration of firepower possible.

And btw, don't rely on Model, he's nothing but an idiot, in fact, deplete him to put emphasis on the southern part of the pincer.

Whoa ~:eek: Model was no idiot! What do you base that statement on?

PanzerJaeger
09-02-2005, 22:58
2. At this point it would be best to take all armored forces out of the West. The allies are focusing all their attention on Italy where armored forces are not important to hold them.

PanzerJaeger
09-02-2005, 23:03
Whoa Model was no idiot! What do you base that statement on?

That was quite an interesting statement indeed. Id like to hear his basis for it aswell. ~:confused:

Franconicus
09-03-2005, 21:48
2. At this point it would be best to take all armored forces out of the West. The allies are focusing all their attention on Italy where armored forces are not important to hold them.
Who knows? They can also attack Southern France or Greece.

Franconicus
09-03-2005, 21:52
Kraxis,

this is a brilliant story. Hope you will not change history and make Hitler win the war. ~;)

As far as I see it Manstein has another option. If he is a great man and soldier. He should invite Hitler to visit the troops before the operation starts. And bring Himmler too. Just to encourage the soldiers. Then arrest them and kill them.

AntiochusIII
09-03-2005, 22:51
Kraxis,

this is a brilliant story. Hope you will not change history and make Hitler win the war. ~;)

As far as I see it Manstein has another option. If he is a great man and soldier. He should invite Hitler to visit the troops before the operation starts. And bring Himmler too. Just to encourage the soldiers. Then arrest them and kill them.Oww... nice idea. But we should do it after the dust settles in Kursk and the Red army collapsed, as to prevent the Soviets taking advantage of a changing regime in the Eastern Front. Please gives us the choice, Kraxis! ~D

For now...well...take the armours from the West - those tanks aren't that useful in Italy, or Greece, for that matter. The possibility of the allies landing in Southern France is to be taken as a necessary risk.

Kraxis
09-03-2005, 23:04
Sorry guys, you have argued for your various positions, but in the end teh rule of the first three ended up with #4, a total workout.

And about Hitler. If I ever did that it would have been a foregone conclusion, not a great possibility for different point of views. Later other stuff might happen, but Manstein is a soldier and a soldier follows his commander.

AntiochusIII
09-03-2005, 23:33
And about Hitler. If I ever did that it would have been a foregone conclusion, not a great possibility for different point of views. Later other stuff might happen, but Manstein is a soldier and a soldier follows his commander.Foregone conclusion? Is Manstein really holds that much popularity among the troops compare to Hitler? (Or is it the other way around, that Manstein will never succeed?)

Anyway, I understand your point that he won't do that anyway and this "Interactive History" won't be fun without the ultimate obstacle in the game providing the challenge (i.e. his own leader, Hitler ~;) )

Kraxis
09-04-2005, 01:53
A full Job
Eventhough you are drawn towards the front again, you deside to do some work at Rastenburg. You need a major influx of men and armour to make this campaign work, at the moment you have some 400 tanks in all at the salient. A strong force, but you lack heavy tanks to lead the assaults and most of your tanks are not in working order. More problematic is the severe lack of panzergrenadiers in the panzer divisions. You need to find reinforcements and the collective of generals and staffers here at Rastenburg are the best men to get at.

The remaining day you go about talking to the right men about recieving priority of men and equipment for replacements, and to your surprise they are rather positive towards you, no need for beaurocratic haggling. Somehow Hitler's carte blanche has spread like a wildfire.
The next day you get in contact with Model of 9th Army and give him the news of replacements, and give him the order of preparing for battle. He is of course a little perplexed that the orders come from you rather than his own superior von Kluge. You quickly tell him that there is no time for lengthy commandlines, then hang up. You know this might get problematic when von Kluge finds out, but you haven't got time and you are sure he will understand, he is afterall on of your few friends.
You then set off into the room of the OKW where Jodl and Keitel at the moment lingers. Your mood high you rush in and make your demand of the western tanks, expecting them to comply in a timely fashion. Instead both of them stare blankly at you, then Keitel speaks up in that haughty fashion he likes to use with subordinates.
"You can make no demands of the OKW, young man. We are seperate of the OKH."
Surprised you can only stutter out: "But... But we are all in this together. We need those tanks!"
Jodl chimes in, sensing an easy victory. "Yes, sure you do, but so do we. Do you think the Amis and Tommies will just lay back? They are at the moment finishing the Afrika Korps, where do you think they will head off to next? England? Hardly."
"You fools!!! You know very well that they can't attack right away and we need those tanks in the east NOW! You can get them back later."
The only answer you get is the stony expressions and a short crisp "not a chance" from Keitel. And he is right, at least for the moment. You shake your head and mumbles a short curse under your breath as you exit again.

The time is up and the car is waiting, but before you go you manage to leave a message for Hitler, asking him to get the OKW to comply, if not entirely then at least with the Tigers, or other potent tanks.
The next morning you are back at your HQ, a pile of papers awaits you. I'm a warrior not a pencilpusher, but I'm more likely to die from a papercut. Pushing them aside you get into contact with Hollidt, charged with your sourthern defenses. Once again you order him to give up his most potent forces, but he is reluctant.
"But Herr Field Marshall we can't hold our lines if we do give up the mobile forces, they are what keep my lines glued together. Without them we won't be able to do much in the case of a Russian attack."
"The whole point is for Hoth to draw away all the attention and forces. Besides the Russians opposing you are not really strong in their own right, and you know that they do not attack unless they feel strong."
"I can't give them all up, I need to have something to keep my troops in contact with each other."
You know he is right and you can't afford more time to be wasted here, so you concede him his wishes. It is turning out to be a serious problem with the tanks and men, but at least you have gotten news of the first reinforcements arriving. The speed of them arriving is increadible, the staffers at Rastenburg have really worked wonders. And the 1st Panther Experimental Battalion is on its way, complete with an entire battalion of SS mechanized infantry as tagalongs from Himmler. You wonder where he has been able to get those men so fast, and the result that you end up with is certainly not something you like, but everything counts, and you begin to lay out the plans for the attack and the rearrangement of your own forces.

After a few days of working furiously you collapse from exhaustion. For the better part of a day you are completely out of touch with the HQ. And when you return you learn that Hitler has turned down your request to the Tigers in Italy, and basically everything else. But at least he has allowed you to siphon in the men going to Italian based units. This is far less than you had hoped, or even expected, and you can easily imagine the smug grins on Keitel and Jodl's faces.
But progress has been good, armoured units are rapidly converging on your frontlines, as well as those of Model's. But the cost has been significant, von Kluge had felt insulted that you had gone over his head in the matter, and in the end you used more time calming him down and explaining him the plans, than what you would have used at the outset. And from now on he is not going to be as forthcoming as previously.
The Panthers arrived only two days ago, and have already been in action a few times, very minor of course. The men has given the unit the dual name of Flammkatzen, Flaming Cats, as a tribute to their significant abilities as well as their horrible tendecies to burst into flames. The technicians have had little luck in correcting this.

You are worried because of your little mishap earlier, but you think you can carry it through for the moment, though the doctors urge you to relax a bit. You begin to wonder where to put your Schwerpunkt, Point of Concentration. You have a couple of options, as you could let 4th Panzer Army lead the attack at the bottom of a salient just north of Belgorod going northeast, or transfer the armour to Army Detachment Kempf to lead the attack across the Donets to the east swinging north. The last option is also 4th Panzer Army, but a bit further west gunning straight for Oboyan.

A1: Center your strongest armour for an attack northeast of Belgorod, following the Donets' flow. This area is perhaps less perfect for armour, with many small hills and small groves and villages, but the flank is easily protected by the river.

A2: Toughen up Kempf's troops for an attack across the Donets then north between Korocha and the Donets eastern bank. Problematic to say the least, as a major river will need to be crossed by massed armour. But the area is by far the weakest guarded, though several Guards units are nearby.

A3: Go directly north towards Oboyan with 4th Panzer Army. After some hilly terrain it flattens out into nice open fields of crops, so it is a very good terrain for armour. Sadly this is estimated to be the home of 32nd Guards Rifle Corps with plenty of mechanized troops around. Also since you strike further out the cut won't be as debilitating in case of victory.

B1: Slow down a bit, but still put a strong effort into pushing the little pieces around on your map. Those troops are needed soon.

B2: Slow down even more, basically let the troops get into position as they are set now. Then later nitpick them into their right positions. At this pace you will most likely get a lot of talking with Hoth and Kempf.

B3: Go on right away. The collapse was because of too little sleep, so obviously you will take care of that, but you can rest when this is all over.

Kraxis
09-04-2005, 01:58
Foregone conclusion? Is Manstein really holds that much popularity among the troops compare to Hitler? (Or is it the other way around, that Manstein will never succeed?)

Anyway, I understand your point that he won't do that anyway and this "Interactive History" won't be fun without the ultimate obstacle in the game providing the challenge (i.e. his own leader, Hitler ~;) )
No I meant that it was a foregone conclusion among you guys. In every case such an option would be bad. If I make it a good choice, then it would be too easy, if I make it bad then the 'game' is basically over as this is a most serious action (civil war, disobedient troops ect ect), and finally if I make it a 'so-so' result it doesn't give the situation the credit it would need. In all aspects it is simply too big. I don't dare do it really.
Also, Manstein didn't go about with these kind of plans at the time (if at all). While this is fiction it has to have some rational anchoring in history.

discovery1
09-04-2005, 02:42
B1, and......


I don't know. Hmmm, alot can go wrong in a river crossing, and if it's too slow then those guards will get in place and make it impossible.

A3 seems more certain. While it will result in more german blood being spilled, if you hit fast enough you should be able to pull through, hopefully.

A1, well the terrian is apparently poor, but we don't know anything about the forces facing use there. Maybe they are fairly weak. And the river keeps us safe, sort of.

I say A2, and pray that it can be done fast enough for the guards to not interfere.

AggonyDuck
09-04-2005, 03:00
A1 and B1. Basically you need the some rest, but not too much.
Also A1 due to the fact that crossing a river might take a long while and not really be simplest of things and because somehow I prefer A1 over A3.. ~:)

Actually I've changed my mind, A2 is the last thing that I want. So I'm forced to take A3 in order to avoid it. So I pick A3 and B1.

PanzerJaeger
09-04-2005, 04:38
A3: - Let your best forces, the panzers, destroy their strongest forces. The russians will not hold if they see their best troops running away. The panzers are your best hope for making this victory meaningful and crushing - but they need the correct terrain to achieve that objective.

B3: - A german general in the prussian tradition does not let his own health stand in the way of a critical battle. There will be plenty of time to rest when the initiative is retaken in the east. However, there will be no time to rest if he is forced to fight a continuous string of defensive battles.

Kagemusha
09-04-2005, 07:20
Im with Panzer on this one.A3 And B3. :bow:

Kraxis
09-05-2005, 13:12
Hehehe... Nice reversal there Duck. ~;) Now I have been working on a rivercrossing and find this. Into the can with it. That will teach me to give you guys too many liberties, and time! ~:cheers:

Anyway, back to work.

Kraxis
09-05-2005, 14:54
Reports reports reports
When you finally let him in the doctor gives you a written note, the poor man had been shot through the throat back in early Barbarossa by a sniper. The turbo-handwriting is far from beautiful but it is easily read and fast written. Serious risk of stroke at present level of stress. You take a look at yourself, and take a moment to feel how you are. It is clear to you, you must scale back your work or suffer the consequences. Due to this you take the easy option for the operational attack. The attack towards Oboyan along the highway from Butovo. It is far easier to manage at the moment and it will present you with much easier tactical considerations when the attack is finally carried out, at which time you are physically capable of actually being there all the time. Unfortunately you won't have the resources to have Kempf support Hoth with anything but holdingattacks.
You are also a little concerned of the serious digging in being done by the 6th Gurds Army and the 1st Tank Army covering your attackroute. Further this is the area that Das Reich has been operating in, meaning that the Russians are well aware of the Panthers. Well, it is not likely to matter much as your are concentrating your best forces here, including three SS Panzer Divisions, the Das Reich, the Totenkopf and the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.

For another week you oversee the preperations, and follow deeply the progress of the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion. The tanks themselves are doing very well on the field, but they need constant care and are actaully escorted onto the field by recoveryvehicles following right behind the grenadiers. Your feeling of the new SS troops has been reinforced by their extreme violence, taking no prisoners below the rank of captain, and their lax discipline, they are however aggressive, determined and superb shots. You are just happy that you don't have an entire division of them. The battalion has by now increased to 43 tanks, of which on average 20 are in the shop.

The 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion has also reached your lines, bringing with it 41 Tigers from the north. Since it is an independant unit it is under your direct leadership, so at some point you will have to decide where to use them.
Hitler has become more and more invasive, demanding you to wait for more Panthers before you attack. He argues that the Russian defensive works will need a sledgehammer to break through. He has also removed the commander of Luftflotte 4, von Richthofen, a most capable commander of the attacks soon required of the Luftflotte. For now it is doing a lot of interdiction against teh railways and roads, trying to cut the lines of supply.

You feel a little undecided, a lot of things need your attention, your limited attention.

1) Fight Hitler vehemently over the Panther issue. Your belief that speed is of the essence is opposed by Hitlers insitance on more Panthers. Trouble is just that he might close up entirely if attacked too hard, besides this is not your usual style.

2) Demand the return of von Richthofen, he is important to your plans, and he is well versed in the capabilities of the new cannon-Stuka. This way you put off the confrontation with Hitler over the issue of the Panthers.

3) Continue to oversee the reinforcements in detail, making sure your have the correct weight at the attacklines. It is likely you can up the number of Panthers reaching the front.

4) Begin to tour the front, both to inspect the troops and their capabilties, but also to inspire them and put the SS troops in their place. Of course Hoth will be accompanying you. With the knowledge of the troops at hand you can more easily argue with Hitler.

SwordsMaster
09-05-2005, 15:31
A combination of 2 and 4 would be nice.... Otherwise just 2. You have to take care of your good men.

AggonyDuck
09-05-2005, 15:35
Sorry, about the sudden reverse, didn't actually mean to cause you more trouble. :embarassed: Anyways I'll sit back from this decision... ~:)

DemonArchangel
09-05-2005, 15:49
Right now, Hitler, not the Russians, is my biggest opponent. Now, arguing with him won't solve anything.

Yes, Hitler should be allowed to ship more Panthers to the front. In fact, right now is a very good opportunity to use a sword and shield dynamic defense tactic, because the Russians can be lured out of the Kursk salient in force in order to attack the German military, only to be broken on the new Panthers and Tigers lying in wait for them. So you now have the backhand stroke that you wanted, thanks to the obstinance of Hitler.

So 3) has to be my choice.

Kraxis
09-05-2005, 15:56
The Russians won't attack. They are comitted to a defensive battle now that they know an attack will come. Pretty much as what happened in the real case. The Russians never attacked in the entire and very long buildup to Zitadelle.

MoROmeTe
09-05-2005, 16:05
I say 3. Bickering with Hitler or visiting the front isn't nearly as important as overseing deployment of troops...

discovery1
09-05-2005, 16:58
DON"T DO THREE!!! By the time more panthers arrive, the Russians will be so strong it doesn't matter. Just like in real life.....

2 is the way to go. Just start the offensive asap, don't wait around for unreliabe panthers that won't help.

Kagemusha
09-05-2005, 17:39
number 4.Little things can be decisive ones in war.If you dont know details you are living in a scenario,not in real life. :bow:Number three is going to ruin us. ~:mecry:

AntiochusIII
09-05-2005, 18:26
Do number 2 first, then goes on with number 4. You need von Richthofen to crush the Russian. 3 is what happened historically, and there the Germans are defeated. After you sent your demand go on inspecting the troops and gather as much information and raise morale as possible as every bit would counts in the upcoming clash.

If you refuse to allow the combination, however, goes on with number 2 only.

PanzerJaeger
09-05-2005, 20:55
Damn, missed it again.. freaking sleep. :furious3:

GoreBag
09-06-2005, 06:00
I'm gonna say 4. A little more knowledge about the battlefield will provide insight as to which executive decisions should be made. "Knowing is half the battle", they say.

Kraxis
09-08-2005, 18:05
Sorry guys I haven't updated the thread... But I have been stressed by university and the fact that a real close friend's mother died last week, so I have been preoccupied with him as well, and with my own grief.

But I'll get right at it now. ~:)

Kagemusha
09-08-2005, 18:12
Nothing to be sorry about Kraxis.Interactive history is nothing in comparison to interactive real life.My condolences. :bow:

Kraxis
09-08-2005, 20:46
The Clock is ticking
When you heard that Hitler transferred his 'pet' von Richthofen you went out of your mind. What is going on with Hitler?! That fool is making this more and more impossible for me... You imedieately sent a note, outlining the wish for Richthofen to return, to Berchtesgaden, where the Führer had retreated to shortly after your visit. But you have no illusions, that if Hitler himself has wanted this transfer, and it is not just some fool that had lobbied him in your absence (your thoughts at once fly towards Jodl and Keitel, even now they are making your preperations a hell), then there is no chance the note will make him change his mind. You settle in to the fact that von Richthofen is lost to you, when you might get the time you could try to get him back, but by then the 'opening' might be lost. You sigh... This is not easy.

In the end you just get back at overseeing the preperations, continually harried by Hitler and other high roller's demands for more tanks. It is getting highly annoying.
It is now the 6th of April, and you are worried by the Russian buildup and digging in. Air recon has determined that the Guard and the Tank armies facing you are rapidly getting up to strength, obviously getting priority consideration. This worries you as at the moment none of your divisions are at full strength, especially low are the panzergrenadiers.
That has to be addressed and you jump back at the logistical nightmare of creating the supplydumps and routing the new troops to their respective positions so that Hoth can concentrate on tactical matters.

As the days go by you get more and more worried that you are losing the initiative, and to your great dismay you have only recieved another 20 Panthers, barely making up forthe losses suffered in combat and to total burnouts during the inevitable fires. The Flammkatzen are at a total of 49 tanks, though they are still dogged by fires in the engines, but now they are already decreasing quite significantly in frequency. Their infantry are still behaving disgustingly towards the locals, and they have in fact gotten into a fight with some other personell from Das Reich over the fact that they ruined a perfectly good evening with a few busloads of women from Kharkov.

The 16th of April.
Hitler has once again postponed the attack, you are beginning to doubt the entire offensive, and you have heard that Guderian are working furiously to stop it. Not now Heinz! You only end up pushing Hitler towards a continual delaying...
But you have used the time to great effect. By now 4th Panzer Army is almost up to stength, and you have readied 3rd Panzer Corps from Army Detachment Kempf to be ready to redeploy to the north to form a guard along the right flank of Hoth. Nominally they will remain under control of Kempf, but de-facto it will be a joint command of you, Hoth and Kempf, determined by what troubles might arise.
Your attackline consists of nothing less than 2nd SS Panzer Corps, under Hausser, with Totenkopf, Das Reich and Leibstandarte, on their flanks you have arrayed Grossdeutchland to the west and 11th Panzer to east, effectively breaking up 48th Panzer Corps. The remaining forces, 3rd Panzer, 167th, 255th and 332nd are all combined into 52nd Corps to the west of Haussers forces, due to their lack of armour you are not going to rely on them too much. To the east near Belgorod you have Kempf's forces, ready to swing round to support the attack.
But you wonder... You are weak in infantry in the main attackforce, and you are uncertain of how much armour you can allow to be lost. Perhaps a shift in the line should be made?

The next morning, just after sunrise an orderly comes barging into your quarters. You are just about to assign him to the assault engineers when he blurts out. "Herr Field Marshall! I bring important news. A recon plane has spotted a massive traficjam of tanks, trucks, assaultguns, artillery... Every kind of vehicle you can imagine, and it is sitting just north of Butovo. We are talking about thousands of vehicles. Obviously something went wrong in the night and the Russians have since tried to move the vehicles out onto the fields to try to get round the jam but have in effect just extended the problems. The pilot is waiting for you out in the office."
You fly out of your bed, your mind a bewildering mess of thoughts and ideas, but you can't locate the right course of action, as you speak with the pilot you mind settles on a few courses.

1: Send in the planes, call for the gun-Stukas from down in Kerch (they will not arrive until at least 5 hours, meaning about noon), but don't do much else. While the jam is obviously a problem for the Russians there isn't much your groundforces can do about it as the frontlines are still intact.

2: Let Dessloch (von Richhofen's replacement) decide what to do about it. You will return to the issue of reforming the frontline.
a) Send Grossdeutchland to the east along with 332nd to reform 48th Panzer Corps so you have a better connection with Kempf's forces. This can be critical when the attack is launched.
b) Have the four divisions weak in armour ready and trained for attacks on the Russian positions in preperation for the armour to attack from behind. This might throw off the Russian preperations. Support for them is ready in the form of the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion and the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion.

3: This is the one chance you have of catching the Russians with their pants down, and it gives you a perfect argument in front of Hitler when he begins the bombardment of you for not adhering to his orders (of waiting). Launch the entire attack right away.

4: This is a perfect chance for you to test the Russian lines. Launch planes to keep the jam in place, then have artillery soften up a section of front in preperation for the Panters to attack. It is the only strong force ready to attack right away, support with plenty infantry. Then throw in the Tigers of 503rd Heavy. They are very likely to capture a significant portion of Russain defences, giving you a vital insight into the Russian defences.

Kraxis
09-08-2005, 20:50
Nothing to be sorry about Kraxis.Interactive history is nothing in comparison to interactive real life.My condolences. :bow:
Thank you... :vanish:

Kagemusha
09-08-2005, 20:55
number 3.Attack now.every day that passes by puts you into more difficult position Russians are growing stronger faster then you can get new troops.

PanzerJaeger
09-08-2005, 22:25
It is difficult to gauge the strength of the forces that are in the traffic jam or how much they effect the russian defenses. :thinking:

Im going to have to go, somewhat reluctantly, with 3. No matter if there was a traffic jam or not, the russians cannot be allowed to continue making preparations for a battle they apparently know will be fought on that ground. The delay has already given up a critical advantage - surprise. No need to compound it.

AntiochusIII
09-08-2005, 22:33
It's time for another Blitzkrieg. This is probably your only chance before the Russian line becomes too strong and deep to break. Choice 3; take the risk. Do not let Hitler get in the way of a German victory.

By the way, my condolences for your personal matter. :bow:

Vykke
09-08-2005, 22:44
Sorry to hear about that, Kraxis.

Anyway, 1 and 2 are right out. You need to take advantage of this somehow before the balance shifts completely in Ivan's favor.

I'd go with option 4. It'd annoy Hitler less than a full-out assault (giving you a better chance of getting von Richthofen back), while still disrupting the enemy's efforts at reinforcement and digging-in. Still, 3 is a viable alternative, and might work wonders, it just seems riskier.

discovery1
09-09-2005, 03:01
Go!!! Attack Now!!! Before It's Too Late!!! 3!!!!!

GoreBag
09-09-2005, 05:07
Option 3. Their pants are down, as you said - their vitals are in plain view. Kick away.

Kraxis
09-09-2005, 11:30
Thanks guys... I knew you would understand, but I felt I had to explain.

Anyway back to the job at hand.
It is clear you want option 3, and option 3 it will be.

Kraxis
09-09-2005, 12:36
On the Road again

The pilot details his findings to you while you consider the implications, but you are already beginning to think out the tactical considerations. "Well, I flew over a traficjam, that much was certain, but I had a hard time determining the size of it because of dustclouds around it. Then it hit me, the Russians are trying to move their vehicles around the clog. I even managed to see a few places where they were already standing still with new jams. Then I got chased away by fighters."
You take a quick look at the man's rank, a mere lieutenant, but he seems sincere and honest. "Thank you, now return to your unit, this might get rocky."

As the pilot leaves you grab the phone and contacts Dessloch. "GET EVERYTHING IN THE AIR!!! I want the traficjam blasted to bits, send in the level bombers first, then the divebombers and tankkillers. And don't forget the gun-Stukas at Kerch." Dessloch is surprisingly calm and merely gives an acknowledgement. Then you get in touch with Hoth. He has also heard of the jam but is less inclined to attack than you are now.
"I understand Erich, but my panzers are not ready, we didn't expect an attack out of the blue like this."
"Then attack with what you have got. Open up with the artillery until the troops can get under way."
"Hm... I don't like this at all, but fine I'll do it. Btw, has the Führer gotten wind of this?"
"Heh... no, but he will as soon as we are sharing a drink with Model and von Kluge in Kursk."
"Ahhh, good. Then I will get right at it."

Within a few minutes you can hear the rumble of artillery laying a smackdown on the frontlines, the screeching of nebelwerfers join in the cacophany, meanwhile a low hum permeates the air... The planes are heading into battle. Hundreds of them it seems, Heinkels and Junkers en masse, escorted by scores of fighters. It is a most impressive spectacle and you are indeed happy not to be a Russian today.
You turn to your aide, "contact von Kluge and inform him of what is going on. I'm going to visit Hoth."

After only 15 minutes of artillery fire the Panthers and their infantry roll into action. Their long guns easily blasting Russian guns to bits as they advance, their infantry storming bunkers and other emplacements. Dased Russain infantry are soon being herded to the rear by MPs. The Panthers advance easily because they know the land from their earlier excursions, and because every single night the Das Reich engineers and escorts have fought a vicious battle with Russian engineers over the minefields in no-mans land, keeping the numbers of mines low.
But besides the success of Das Reich, you find that the other divisions are trying to advance with infantry along with a few ready tanks. Initially it goes well, as the Russians have built up to face a heavy armoured assault, and the artillery and infantry easily takes care of the guns, but losses have been high from the covering machineguns and strong infantry positions.

As noon comes, it is clear that most of the forwards Russian positions are taken. And now the tanks are finally coming into action behind the infantry (the engineers are furiously trying to clear paths through the captured minefields), but some are quickly disabled by mines. The attack on the next lines is taken in full stride by the tanks while the infantry has had time for a short rest. This time however it is not going nearly as well as hoped.
First of all the Russian positions are much stronger than the first lines with many more infantry positions, and your infantry are quickly bogged down, meanwhile the tanks try to offer support to their attacks, but as soon as they advance they run into minefields and put under fire from perfectly covered AT guns.

You arrive at Hoth's HQ around 3 o'clock in the afternoon, but he is anything but happy. The tough general with the stony eyes greets you with a major frown on his forehead.
"Erich, this is turning out to be a white elephant. I have heard that Model can't attack until in two days, the Russians are bringing in reinforcements and my advance is too damn slow. We have run into minefields and simply can't advance for the moment. Luckily the Russian artillery seems to be preoccupied with the trafficjam to be much of the nuisance, and our planes are intercepting the Russian attackplanes. So we are pretty much free, but we can't use it for much."
This is most disturbing for you, it seems you were a bit too hasty in your attack, and now the tanks are getting disabled in the minefields in great numbers.
"How goes the Flammkatzen?"
"Well, there we have an outright success. They have suffered quite a few casualties, but with the infantry and recovery vehicles nearby all the tanks have been recovered. Further only 3 tanks have suffered fires, and 5 in total have broken down. Even now their infantry is taking Streletskoye at the ridge of the hills."

The assault continues until the darkness falls, along with rain... The infantry suffers out in the cold rain while the ground will soon become boggy. The hum of planes passing back and forth continues, and you can see on the edge of horizon several large explosions and large fires. Meanwhile the artillery takes a few individual fireorders from the forward positions. The batteries going off now and then. Besides you you can see vehicles moving up to the front, carrying all kind of equipment, but you notice that a lot of it is engineer equipment and engineers themselves. They are moving up to clear the minefields... It is the usual night of an attack.
The almost complete absence of Russian artillery has been merciful on the infantry. Their exposed attacks were only harried by mortars and infantryguns, and these were quickly overwhelmed by the speed of the infantry or the weight of the metal falling on them.
Dessloch himself called you earlier that the trafficjam is a blazing inferno of burning tanks and trucks, and large explosions of ammo and fuel. In fact, he reckoned that his polits would be able to attack deep into the night using the light from the fires to attack further vehicles. But at the same time he is disappointed that there were far fewer tanks than first anticipated.
You are yourself rather discouraged, the total losses of tank the first day have been massive, more than 100 tanks have been disabled, luckily most by mines, and have thus been salvaged by recovery vehicles. But they are still lost to you tomorrow, and likely for quite a few days yet. Further Kempf's forces are in no state to attack at the moment. You only gave him orders for the rearrangement two days ago and his forces are strung out on the roads. Quite a few of the tanks are ready, but they lack most of their infantry and artillery.
Lastly, the Russians do not seem all that affected by the lack of armour close to the front. They have fought with tenacity and determination beyond what they did last year, they haven't surrendered in masses yet. Basically all prisoners have come from the front positions, where the dregs and worts troops have been positioned.

This has not gone as you hoped at all, it has been damned near a comeplete disaster, but at least the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion has done extremely well, and its advance has put a rather large dent into the Russian lines, but even they have noted that there are furher enemy positions ahead of them, though hardly as strong as the ones overrun today.

You wonder what your next course of action should be.

1) Carry on tomorrow. The minefields should be cleared, at least most of them. The Russians were obviously taken by tactical surprise as they didn't expect your attack, and they have suffered heavy losses. The Russian support branches around Butovo are smashed and there is no sight of the tanks. Also, by carrying on you can ignore Hitler for a while yet.

2) Halt completely. Your losses to the tanks have been very heavy, but most are only out of comission for a handful of days, so you are at the moment weakened significantly in tanks, limiting your offensive capabilities. Meanwhile you have taken the hills covering your approach. They will now seve as perfect defensive positions and great stagingpoints for the next attack when the tanks are back from the shops in numbers.

3) Your losses are too heavy to carry on in full yet, but the Panthers are not significantly affected by losses, due to your prudent action of having the technicians nearby for several actionfilled weeks. Give them complete support by the 503rd Heavies and have the two battalions with most of Das Reich (least affected by mines) run rampant in the rear of the Russian positions.

4) While you surprised the Russians, your own men were surpsrised as well, they need time to adjust. Shift more forces into the succesful Das Reich area and carry on the attack from there, expanding the burgeoning breach to facilitate a more complete attack the day after tomorrow (when Model says he can finally attack).

SwordsMaster
09-09-2005, 14:16
number 4. Exploit the enemy's weakness

Kagemusha
09-09-2005, 16:23
number four.push the breach concentrate your forces.

AggonyDuck
09-09-2005, 18:16
I was a bit split between three and four, but I'll personally go with nr.3.
We're just not truly in a position to take advantage of Das Reichs success yet. :dizzy2:

Geoffrey S
09-09-2005, 20:36
Isn't this heading towards the original Backhand approach, but applied by the Russians?

AntiochusIII
09-09-2005, 22:53
Number 3, halt, restore, and attack. The Blitzkrieg is over - now it's time to actually stand firm, raise the pikes, and become the storm crushing through the Russian forces - slowly but surely. The Russians would expect you to Blitz, and they would be prepared. Let the panzers harass the Russians out of their mind while you recover for another blow.

One, full scale blitz, would completely exhaust your forces and leave them prey to the numerically superior Russians. Two would guarantee the Russian reinforcing again, and the momentum and opportunity lost - completely. Four would push some of your forces ahead too far and become the battle of the Bulge.

Kraxis
09-09-2005, 23:30
Isn't this heading towards the original Backhand approach, but applied by the Russians?
Perhaps... I might have plans, and they might include that, but as with everything in this thread I can't tell you anything for certain besides regular info. So remember, if you are confused about something orjust want more info (how many prisoners did we take? things like that for instance), say so, then I will try my best to answer.

Change of plans

When the fighting finally died down, and the calm was only broken by intermittent artilleryfire and the lonely bombers and recon planes flying back and forth, you sit back in a cushioned chair at Hoth's headquarters. Sitting there you try to imagine what your Russian counterparts, Zhukov, Rokossovsky and Vasilevsky is doing. It must be a hell of a night for them, Stalin breathing down their necks and most of a Guards Army without artillery it seems. But you have your own woes, Hitler is at the forefront there. In fact you expect him to call you soon to hear what is going on.
You decide that the truth is the best weapon, you attacked because you had a golden opportunity, but you'd better leave out the losses suffered to mines.

Speaking of the devil! Hoth's aide brings you a phone, it is Hitler!
You answer it, and for a long second there is no answer, then finally Hitler speaks in a groweling tone: "What in hell is going on?!?! I told you to wait!"
"But Mein Führer, I was presented with a most auspicious chance I simply had to take. We have made good progress."
"You should have consulted me! I'm your commander. And I wouldn't say that taking a few hills is much progress in Russia. I can't afford this kind of warfare, Stalin can."
"Unfortunately there wasn't time to contact you, besides you were asleep at the time, I didn't want to wake you up. These hills are insignificant to your grand plans I'm sure, but to this operation they are vital."
"So how have my Panthers done?"
The question you dreaded... If you tell the truth, Hitler might think it is all his benefit, and he might even force you to call off further attacks 'now that you have gotten a perfect sprinboard for later attacks'. You decide to tell him a white lie.
"They have done fairly well."
"Explain!"
"When they have engaged the enemy in combat they have done very well, their guns and good armour have proven their worth. But sadly the tanks are too unreliable, they break down as soon as the wind changes or there is lump on the road."
Hitler only makes grumbling noises to that, but eventually he does talk again.
"So what now... The attack has been begun, I don't expect you to back down from it."
"Well, we were surprised by the events as well, so the attack wasn't perfect. I will continue the attack tomorrow by an open venue I have found in the Russian lines. But don't expect a total victory as it will be fairly limited in it's scope."
"Hmm... I will have to talk with my staff about this."
"I would prefer that you did not. There is little they can do that I can't. I will keep you informed regularly."
"Do not forget that you are not infallible and that prepared defences have stopped you before (Sevastopol 41)."
"I do not Mein Führer."
For a few minutes you entertain the armchair strategist in the guise of a statesman, but finally Hitler is drawn to more interesting issues.

During the night you and Hoth reform the troops in great extent. You redeploy Grossdeutchland to the rear of Das Reich along with the 503rd Heavies and the 332nd. This forces you to extent the other divisions' zones of control, but you don't expect that to be much troube as you have hit them hard. They are more likely to try to contain Das Reich. Hoth handles the details and the direct commands while you make certain that the roads are open and that the supplies are ready in the morning. It is a gruelling task for the both of you, and you fall asleep only minutes before the new attack is launched, just before the first light breaks.

Having learned a lot from the previous day the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion follows in the wake of a rolling barrage with infantry covered by the tanks. This time the artillery reports a counterbattery fire is fired from the Russian lines, but it is scattered and seemingly confused. As soon as the Panthers encounter organized resistance they speed up and let the infantry charge the enemy positions. Covered by the Russian fortifications the Panthers halt, keeping the nearby enemy positions under fire. Finally their support arrives, the Tigers of 503rd. They drive right through into the heaviest fire, as soon as they pass the Panthers take up flanking positons covering the weaker Panzer IIIs at the rear of the Tigers. Together they advance northwest, until any further would bring them too far away.
For hours the battle rages, then suddenly the Tigers and Panthers are suprisingly attacked by strong tank forces of some 30-40 T-34s in each individual force. The open ground and good aircover break these attacks, though losses are inevitable. But the technicians and the support troops of the two batalions take good care of the tanks that break down (a problem that still haunts the Panthers).

The rest of Das Reich have followed on to the north, as the heavier tanks swerved to the west a bit to face the strongest resistance northeast of Butovo in the form of the remnants of the 67th Guards Rifle Division (the unlucky recipients of the attack yesterday). The advance is quickly heading for the village of Olkhovka where forces of 69th Army are positioned.
Meanwhile Grossdeutchland have been heading almost directly west towards Butovo in an attempt to cut off 71st Guards Rifle. Their rear is a mess due to the unexpected shift of the heavy tanks and it is totally unguarded. The tanks of Grossdeutchland 'plunder the nest' and eventually they link up with infantry from 3rd Panzer, the bag is closed by no less than four divisions, inside it is the 71st GR, the 51st GR and parts of the 161st Rifle division of 40th Army. The entire left flank is thus secured with numerous prisoners taken.
It is quickly learned from the regimental commander of 199th GR Regiment that the tanks from the entire 3rd Mechanized Corps were suppoed to have covered the rear, but to his surprise they never arrived. They had been stopped somewhere further north, there sat the Tigers and Panthers, fighting off attack after attack on their protected position. And because of the slaughter of vehicles the day before north of Butovo the only route south (and into the flank of Grossdeutchland) was through them.

This though, has taken most of the day and Grossdeutchland is highly disorganized, they will need some time to reform as Totenkopf advances to take its place to the east of her.
The 332nd Infantry Division advances to keep the rear of the heavy tanks and the flank of Das Reich clear from attack from the east. To your great dismay they suffer a serious setback when the tanks of 2nd Guards Tanks Corps attackes them in the middle of their advance. The tenacity of the infantry and their supporting artillery along with the few gun-Stukas hold off the tanks until nightfall, but losses have been heavy among the trucks, other vehicles and support troops. As the evening fall they hold back a few other attacks made from the 39th and 31st Rifle Divisions, but these were weak, possibly because they had been involved in heavy fighting during the Kharkov battles.

Das Reich on the other hand has during the day advanced as far as the outskirts of Yakovlevo, on the Belgorod-Oboyan highway, an advance of 7 miles, and directly down between the 3rd Mech Corps and the 5th Tank Corps. Advancing further is folly so they stay put.

The result of the day is a surprisingly large advance and a good capture of troops. You hadn't expected that when you ordered the attack. Perhaps the Russians simply haven't got the depth and stamina for this fight? But as noted the day has been very tough on both Grossdeutchland and 332nd Infantry. And the Heavy Tanks are continually under attack from various forces of 3rd Mech Corps. Their fall would open up the entire flank of both Das Reich and Grossdeutchland, and the rear of 332nd Infantry. But as the darkness falls the tankattacks stop while infantry tries to infiltrate towards the encircled forces. For the moment the infantry of the two battalions and their support infantry can hold it, but it is not certain.

Also today the Russian artillery finally woke up, and delivered their first proper 'services' to the troops, especially the 332nd suffered from that, but also the Heavy Tanks in Hell's Foreyard, as their position has become known because of the continual and varied attacks, have suffered casualties to artillery.
Even the Russian planes have performed better today. Several bomber formations have attacked your lines, but to your great relief thay have concentrated on the intial positions of Das Reich, so your armour have for the most part gone free, but again the poor 332nd was in the middle of it.

All in all a very positive day. Now you wonder if you should wait at all. Hoth as always is all for another surprising attack, and argues that you should use the heavy tanks to the northeast to blunt the tanks of 5th Tanks Corps, while Das Reich goes deep behind 3rd Mech Corps and Liebstandarte protects the flank to the east.

1) Continue to expand the breach, this time to the east, in the hope that Kempf might finally bring up his forces to close the gap when Liebstandarte and 11th Panzer breaks east. Meanwhile you hold the rest in place.

2) Pull Grossdeutchland's tanks up to Hell's Foreyard to shore up that position during the night. Then go on the offensive in the morning, hopefully this will catch the Russians with their tanks in the open for another attack. The rest you keep on the defensive.

3) Take Hoth up on his idea and redeploy the 332nd to Hell's Foreyard while the Tigers and Panthers deploy to the northeast and Leibstandarte takes over from 332nd on the east flank.

4) Concentrate your efforts on reducing the Russian troops caught in the bag south of Butovo. You need your lines firm and strong, that can't be achieved with several of your best divisions caught up in guarding trapped enemies. Besides you need some time still for both Kempf and Model to add their weight and for the disabled tanks to begin to retun in numbers. Local attacks to gain specific postions are of course to be advocated.

AntiochusIII
09-10-2005, 00:16
Choice 4, I think. You are risking overextending yourself as it's your armour corps that wins the day today, and they are now in the disadvantaged position. The capture of the trapped Russian divisions would satisfy Hitler while you re-organize the messed up battle lines and look forward for the re-increase in the number of tanks. Parts of the Russian forces that were "asleep" during your earlier attacks are now "waking up", as you said. With more active Russian air and artillery activity you cannot risk another blitzkrieg, not while some of your troops are exhausted and others occupied, unable to provide an overwhelming weight on the Russians.

DemonArchangel
09-10-2005, 01:33
Finish reducing the encircled Russian troops. You need to do it in order to shore up your lines, as your troops have seen some extremely heavy fighting and are on the verge of collapsing.

But first, you need to reorganize and reinforce your forces. Beef up the line by bringing Grossdeutchland's tanks into Hell's Front Yard, and attach some spare infantry battalions to the 332nd infantry division before deploying them in order to make sure that they don't collapse due to casualties and combat exhaustion. If you can, try to use your airplanes to take out the Russian's artillery and airplanes during the night. Turn Hell's Front Yard into a heavy defensive position with LAH and Totenkopf guarding the flanks until the troops in the pocket can be reduced, before going on the offensive again. That way, you can be certain of your own supply and fuel lines, and allow for Kempf and Model to arrive at the battlefield.

discovery1
09-10-2005, 01:41
Agreed. Reduce the pocket. I keep having visions of those inside making a breakout that cuts off your forces....

GoreBag
09-10-2005, 03:59
Number 4. It's like playing Risk and trying to conquer Asia in one turn. It's not gonna last. Spreading yourself out thin is not good.

dgfred
09-10-2005, 04:28
I fear a massive Russian tank counterattack shortly, especially to breakout
the trapped units. So #4 is my choice after bringing up Grossdeuchland and
relieving 322 to at most seige perimeter of the trapped units. Maybe a
backhand slap may still be possible as I can't see the Russians just sitting
back at this point in the war and letting those troops just be slaughtered or
taken prisoner. ~:confused:

Kraxis
09-10-2005, 18:48
Settling the matters

You shake your head at Hoth. "No my friend, we have to reduce the Russian troops caught at the moment befoer we can resume any advance. When they are taken care of only the 1st Tank Army stand in our way, we will have almost wiped out the 6th Guards Army."
"True, but we are exposed as it is. If we allow the Russians to strengthen their positions they might bring in enough reinforcements to halt us."
"Soon both Model and Kempf join us. If the Russians take forces from the north then Model will have little trouble reaching at least Ponryi, and the open terrain in the north will go a long way towards getting him there."
The two of your continue the talks and you basically settle on a quick reduction of the two GR divisions. Hopefully they will surrender fast.
Late in the evening Hausser contacts the two of you, he feels that Das Reich is in a very precarious position with two strong armoured forces on either of its flanks. He asks that the two strong tank battalions be moved up to its positions to halt any armoured attacks on Das Reich. You tell him that SSR will have to weather any attacks on its own, the Panthers and Tigers will stay put, they need to protect the vulnerable back of Grossdeutchland (GD). Further, it is more likely that the 3rd Mech Corps will continue it's attacks on Kampfgruppe Heidekamp (the two battalions of heavy tanks) rather than turn and attack Das Reich.

The night follows the same pattern as the previos night with the difference that the encircled Russian forces try to punch their way out in a rather uncoordinated fashion, and the artillery of the local forces easily deal with them. Also Obersturmbannführer Heidekamp, the commander of Kampfgruppe Heidekamp reports of continual infiltration attacks on his position. He lacks the infantry to deal with them. All you can do is to have artillery bombard the area in front of his position and hope for the best.

In the morning 3rd Panzer, Totenkopf and 255th Infantry attack the pocket in force, supported by heavy artillery and some infantry from GD. Lacking their rear echelons of infantry and support branches (captured yesterday by GD) the elements of the three Russian divisions have no chance at all. Yet the two Guards units fight on with a tenacity seldomly seen, but the troops of 161st Rifle break within an hour and open up for a further attack on the flanks of the two other units. The few tanks of 3rd Panzer plough into them and organized defense falls apart.
Just after noon new long lines of prisoners head towards Germany for use in the industry.

Unlike GD the day at Hell's Foreyard is anything but easy. Right before dawn a new attack of tanks fly at the Kampgruppe, this time it contains KV-1 tanks at it's head and infantry at the rear. The placement of the German tanks makes certain that a large number of guns can be brought to bear on the Russian forces, but besides small earth embankments in front of the tanks there is nothing to protect them. And the infantry has a hard time in keeping out of sight. But as before the attack is too weak in both organisation and in planning. You realize quickly that the position will be the focuspoint for the Russians in the sector, and you order Dessloch to keep a dense guard of fighters and Stukas overhead to intercept both Russian air and ground forces. This comes at the cost of the rest of the front, in particular the western part of your forces.
The next few hours are silent, but for determined Russian airattacks, though these in the end are quite costly. Then suddenly a massive artillery bombardment saturates the ground, guns and rockets fall in dense clusters on the exposed position. Finally smoke is laid over your forces, but Heidekamp is a smart fellow and orders an advance of the tanks out of the smokescreen. Outside the screen they come into contact with a massive Russian tankforce, quickly Heidekamp's tanks halt and try to fight a battle at distance, while the Russians speed up to close in. You follow the tactical battle with great interest.

Meanwhile Das Reich is itself also under attack, but not from 3rd Mech Corps but from the east by 5th Guards Tanks Corps. The attack is quite well controlled and the tanks advance in dense clusters with the infantry riding on the back or run alongside, while artillery falls on Das Reich from both sides. The density and power of the attack forces Das Reich backwards a short distance until the attack halts for unknown reasons. This gives the tanks of the divisions an opportunity to counterattack and they regain the lost positions. But Hausser is on the verge of giving up the entire position when another attack is started. You order him to keep the division in place and send Liebstandarte (LAH) north to hit the Russuans in their flank. You hope this will stop the attacks, but it will throw your careful setup into the wind, though this is more less what has happened everywhere else so far.

Totenkopf quickly disengages from the mopping up and manages to launch an attack west of Butovo, it is hoped that they might link up at Hell's Foreyard but the disorganized attack is slow to get off and the defenses have been strengthened significantly the last two days and the attack breaks ups. GD moves east as 3rd Panzer and 255th mops up the last resistance areas, as they cross the line of Totenkopf they disorganize the latter but their movement i supposed to send reinforcements to the exposed northwestern shoulder of the bulge.

As the massive tankbattle northeast of Butovo plays out you get more and more uncertain. The about 70 heavy tanks of the Kampfgruppe fight like the cats they are named after but enemy numbers is very impressive, and losses have thus far been quite significant but their control of the battlefield has enabled the support sections to recover the knocked out tanks worth recovering.

Hoth is once again aggressive and impatient. He argues that you should wait for LAH to hit the 5th Guards Tanks Corps in the flank, then attack with Das Reich into the flank of 3rd Mech Corps to halt the attack on the exposed shoulder.

Hausser, known for defying Hitler when he withdrew from Kharkov, has much the same in mind now, when he calls you. He still want to pull back Das Reich to a less exposed position, from there it is safe and can support Hell's Foreyard against 3rd Mech Corps' attacks.

You are yourself not certain and you think up several options.

1: Follow Hoth's advise. Support Heidekamp with all the artillery and all the planes you can spare, and some that you can't spare, and hope that it is enough until LAH hits 5th Tank Guards in the flank, letting Das Reich strike at 3rd Mech Corps. It should be weak from armoured losses the previous day, and an attack here could be decisive.

2: Have Heidekamp conduct a fighting retreat from his exposed position, this should send his forces right back to LAH and their positions. Halt LAH directly east of Butovo and prepared to recieve both the enemy and Heidekamps tanks.

3: Let Hausser retreat Das Reich to a position where it is protected by LAH. There it can support the Panthers and Tiger. This is a very safe approach but unfortunately it might impact the morale of the men and the Russians will likely strengthen their positions for your next attcks.

4: Do nothing at the moment, but keep a close eye on the action so you can react to any development. This is perhaps risky, but you are confident that Das Reich is stronger than Hausser claims, together with LAH it will be able to rip open the entire 5th Tank Guards Corps. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp simply has to grit it's teeth and hang in there until GD can reach its positions. You will of course keep it heavily supported with aircover and artillery.

DemonArchangel
09-10-2005, 19:12
Kraxis, may I please have a map of the area, with the known locations of the Russian forces (or at least a quickie description)

It's getting a bit hard to keep track.

Kraxis
09-10-2005, 21:15
Kraxis, may I please have a map of the area, with the known locations of the Russian forces (or at least a quickie description)

It's getting a bit hard to keep track.
You know I would love to... I sensed a bit of confusion in the last decision. I have searched far and wide but most are woefully inadequate or in Russian (and thus I don't know what they really present).

The best I can do it to present the front as it looks now and add a small hastily created paint image of the front as it looked. Then I hope you can imagine the units by my description:
https://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=butovo5gg.jpg
Now imagine that the black is the front before the attack, the blue is the highway, and the red is from left to right, Butovo, Yakovlevo and Belgorod.

At about two thirds the length of the salient from the west we find the village of Butovo. It is about 4 miles in from the front along the highway and railway towards Oboyan (about halfway to Kursk). The front is not perfect east-west but tilts a bit southwards.

South of Butovo and a bit west we find 3rd Panzer and 255th in the process of of mopping up. To the northwest of them, and to the west of Butovo, we find Totenkopf, currently reorganizing. Opposing Totenkopf we have elements of 3rd Mech Corps, elements of 40th Army and the paltry remains of 67th GR Division. They are a mishmash of various troops thrown onto the position, but they are supported by boggy terrain.
To the east of Butovo we have our breakthrough, it is about 10 miles wide at the moment, and about 12 miles deep. At its tip we find Das Reich near the town of Yakovlevo, also at this point we find the river Vorskla, small though and hardly of impact. The town is about 10 miles east and 5 miles north of Butovo. Thus if the front is tilted to the south initially it will position the town at the center of the breakthrough as it moves slightly northeast. From it is is possible to go directly north towards Oboyan.
Das Reich has the main forces of 3rd Mech Corps to its west and 5th Guards Tank Corps to the east. Thus in front of Das Reich are elements of 5th.
Moving along the front southeast of Butovo we have Grossdeutchland, heading for the Kampfgruppe with all haste.

Just northeast of Butovo we find the Kampfgruppe, they occupy a bit of the highway and thus a very important connection to the now lost troops. That is the reason for the furious attacks on them, they were in the way.
The rear of Das Reich is guarded by 332nd Infantry, behind them we find the Liebstandarte. They were basically at the front, but have since pushed up, and are now ready to push up to Das Reich alongside 332nd. Effectively widening the breach a bit. On the rear right we have 11th Panzer. The opposition here is dug in deep, and consist of the 31st, 39th, 92nd GR and 375th, going all the way to Belgorod.

When/if GD and LAH arrives at their assigned positions you have a very strong force ready. Being GD (possibly with Totenkopf to the west), Das Reich and LAH (possibly with 11th Panzer to the east), and at your descretion Kampfgruppe Heidekamp.

Behind and to the west of 3rd Mech Corps we find 31st Tank Corps.

AggonyDuck
09-10-2005, 22:07
I'm personally a bit torn up between 1 or 2.
The first one depends on the actual strength of LAH, if you aren't able to defeat the Guards Tank Corps then you're in a world of pain. On the other hand number two is risky, but if it works it might be worth it, but the risks are too big for me.

So I'll go with 1, because I believe LAH should be able to crush the 5th Guards Tank. If they succeed in it, then things might be fine..

DemonArchangel
09-10-2005, 23:08
IMO, the 5th Tank guards wouldn't leave their flank open. It's either a trap, or a form of extreme stupdity. Have Das Reich hold off the 5th Tk Corps for as long as possible (with artillery and airsupport of course) while performing recconaissance on the russian forces. If Das Reich is about to get encircled, allow it to make a withdrawal to LAH in order to await further attacks.

If the recco shows that the 5th Tk is indeed exposed, then attack.
If it's a trap, change my tactics accordingly.

dgfred
09-11-2005, 00:52
IMO, the 5th Tank guards wouldn't leave their flank open. It's either a trap, or a form of extreme stupdity. Have Das Reich hold off the 5th Tk Corps for as long as possible (with artillery and airsupport of course) while performing recconaissance on the russian forces. If Das Reich is about to get encircled, allow it to make a withdrawal to LAH in order to await further attacks.

If the recco shows that the 5th Tk is indeed exposed, then attack.
If it's a trap, change my tactics accordingly.


Excellent choice ~;) , especially the recon part. I agree with D A .

Kraxis
09-11-2005, 01:42
Let me this clearly. You want a #1 and a #3 in case it is not as easy. Trouble is that Das Reich is fighting teeth and nails here. It is not certain that they can spare the forces or perhaps even get around the enemy spearheads to do recon.

Remember this though. We are talking massive scales here. Hitting enemy formations in the flank is disasterous, even if you prepare for it, it leaves all your tactical and strategic considerations in dire straits. Das Reich has pretty much been hit in the front so far so it has been able to weather such attacks.

Lastly Das Reich attacked deep into the enemy heartland here. The 5th GT were supposed to be an active reserve, not end up as a second line of defense.
The Soviet system of defense was centered around tenacious first lines and large operational reserves.

So the point of #1, can LAH make it in time, and will they be strong enough?

DemonArchangel
09-11-2005, 03:02
I don't need DR to do recco. Recco can be done later, the Russians aren't likely to secure their flanks in the time LAH can travel 10 miles. And again, if it gets too desperate, DR can run off.

Kagemusha
09-11-2005, 16:42
Take option number one.Let the strongest of enemy forces to exhaust them selves against your battle line they will be so focused on their attack that liebstardarte will crush them when they reach their flank.You are making Russians do exactly what you want them to do.exellent. :bow:

JimBob
09-12-2005, 07:07
You could get your backhand by withdrawing. Fall back and suck the Russians in. But that is risky, largest payoff but lady luck hasn't been Manstein's best friend throughout this. So go with number one, although if Kraxis would be so kind as to provide the improtant numbers on LAH and DR/5th and 3rd that could sway it.

GoreBag
09-12-2005, 07:48
Number 1. Just a little longer.

Franconicus
09-12-2005, 12:59
Kraxis,
what is the situation in the air. Do we control the air over the battle field now? Did Hartmann clear the sky?

Kraxis
09-12-2005, 23:25
Kraxis,
what is the situation in the air. Do we control the air over the battle field now? Did Hartmann clear the sky?
It is a confused situation. Neither side has enough planes, and while you have managed to concentrate a large part of the eastern airpower your sudden attack has thrown the flyers themselves into confusion.
The effect is that often neither side can do much about ground attacks but have CAPs in place over important areas. Hartmann has indeed had some success, but the Russians have so far abstained from their usual 'big wing' attacks.
You have about 1500 planes in all, while the Russians are simply unknown, but thei lack of large scale attacks indicate that they are not too strong, perhaps 2500 at most.

Das Reich has about 90 tanks LAH has just recieved enough repaired vehicles to put it at 100 tanks. Both are pretty much at peak with infantry, though Das Reich has suffered some losses to their point units. So they are respectively at 16000 and 17000 troops.

The two Russian corps sound strong (well a corps is a strong formation), but air recon suggests that 3rd Mech is currently severely weakened in tanks with about 130 left and some 25000 troops, while 5th Guards Tanks are save the losses suffered during their two failed attacks at good strength with about 330 tanks and 35000 troops. This is sadly not facts but rather estimates from the pilots and intelligence officers.

Do not forget that a strong German division is often equated with a strong Russian corps at this time

Franconicus
09-13-2005, 08:37
Retreat! I think Stalin will order his general to start a counter attack at once. And start a massive air strike against the Soviet air force. Those Il2 can really spoil your day!

DemonArchangel
09-13-2005, 15:45
Whatever you do, do not retreat without giving the Russians a fight first.

Franconicus
09-14-2005, 08:01
No, no, no. Retreat! Make the Soviets believe that you have to send troops to the Western front. And that you are too weak to fight. Stalin will love to believe this and order a big offensive. Then you have him (and Hitler) were you want to have them.

Kraxis, you are always talking about the Panthers. What about the Ferdinands. If memory serves they appear in this battle first, too. Extremly effective against tanks. But then they had no MG and could not defend against infantry. And they were vulnerable against air attacks.
http://www.armybook.com/summary.html?code=0103020co3

Maybe you could give us also a weather forecast? Thank you! :bow:

Kraxis
09-14-2005, 12:53
All Elephants were sent to 9th Army and are thus in the hands of Model (Manstein and Hoth were not very fond of them). He does have them with him, but we have no impact on how he uses them. We could perhaps try to contact him but it not likely that he will change just because you gave him a call.

The weather has been fairly good for the season. Only local showers and in general spotted cover so the planes have been able to attack. But don't expect it to last.

And it became #1. So no retreats for you there Franconius. ~;)


The Gamble

"Hermann, it is risky to do that, you know it could end up in disaster."
Hoth nods. "Yes, but given the choices we have right now I find it the lesser evil."
You stare at the tactical map on the table in front of you, the situation is critical, you have had too much success for your own good. Those other armoured forces need to get in there at once. Where is Kempf and his panzers?
"Fine Hermann, we will do what you want. But give all the support you can for Kampfgruppe Heidekamp. A lot rides on their survival."
"Of course Erich. GD is fairly closeby, if we halt their artillery they should be able to support the position as would Totenkopf's."
"Ahhh... GD. Isn't it a long slow way to go around Butovo? Order it to take the village. It sits on the highway and blocks rapid advances."

So your orders are carried out. Even before you gave the order LAH was on their way northeast, their spearheads flying through the two weakened Rifle regiments in their way. They had been weak from even before the attacks and then they further weakened their position by throwing away a lot of infantry in their attack on 332nd. Progress is fast, and you estimate that LAH will reach its attackpoint in a few hours, maybe three if something goes wrong. That leaves enough time to carry out the attack on 5th GT Corps.

In the air you have noticed that the three Gruppen of JG52 have been particularly effective in the last few days, sweeping the skies of Russian planes. You demand that at least one Gruppe alway patrol the area around Hell's Foreyard. Atthe same time you send in the small force of Stuka-G with their guns to rip the tanks apart. Already their primary pilot, Hans Ulrich Rudel, has destroyed no less than 12 enemy tanks in this offensive.
On the ground below them an equal spectacle has played out, when Heidekamp' forces were about to pull back to their original positions, a single Tiger remained outside, its radioantennas blown off. For the better part of an hour it was alone, holding off the Russians with wellplaced shots, while its comrades supported it with longrange fire, clearing the tanks that did get into dangerous range. Its commander, Michael Wittmann, had simply no idea that he was alone until a short lull came about and he looked around. He prudently withdrew his tank.

But even so, the situation is very critical for Heidekamp.
At 4 o'clock he calls you up, to ask for permission to fall back. You can hear the gunner of his tank work in the background, you can sometimes even hear the gun go off. The HQ tank is in the thick of it.
"Sir, we are hard pressed. It just seems that there is no end to the Russian tanks. We blow them up, the next just drives around them, we gun them down, the next use them as cover. It is really a hell here. *interlude as the gunner fires his gun* I want to pull back."
You get great furrows in your forehead. "Sorry Heidekamp, you will have to hang on! Help is on the way, and you have the full support of both GD's and Totenkopfs artillery."
"Sure, but artillery doesn't stop T-34s. And the Panthers are finally giving up. I have lost no less than 12 of them to mechanical breakdowns the last few hours, I have a working total of 17 now. 21 are in the shop and a further 3 are sent to the rear with critical damage. They can't last much more."
"I have ordered that your position is priority for aircover of all kinds. Expect a lot of support. And just keep the Panthers still for the moment, try not to overwork their engines. For the sake of Germany, hold that position!"
"Will try Herr Field Marshall" comes the dry response as Heidekamp signs off.
You quickly turn to Hoth and inquite into the position of LAH.

It is still some way off, and has attracted some unwanted attention from the air, but its hould be ready within the hour.
Das Reich has been suffering anotehr massive tank attack, and again it was forced to pull back its outer positions. This time there was no counterattack, as the Russians were too strong. The division is just goingto hold on to its current position across the small river Vorskla. Hopefully it is enough of a boundary to keep 5th GT Corps on the other side.

The last hour goes with a slowness you have seldomly felt. Everything hinges on the arrival of LAH. Two important forces could get seriously mauled if they fail. And the entire offensive might falter. You occupy yourself with keeping up to date with GD's progress in Butovo. The division detached a battalion of infantry to take the village, but it is guarded by a weakened regiment of Guards (that poor 67th GR Division). They are only slowly getting anywhere and at a high cost. You order Totenkopf to also send a battalion.
Finally Hoth calls for you, LAH is ready. The last half hour the attacks on Das Reich has increased dramatically, tanks, infantry, even trucks with AA guns have attacked them. The Russians know LAH is coming. For a few minutes LAH exchanges fire with the Russian artillery, but nothing comes of it and the attack is launched.

The flank positions of 5th GT Corps is weakly held, but strongly defended. The LAH tanks roll over the positions, but the infantry is forced to fight a deadly fight with the survivors. Hastily dug gunpositions open up on the advancing tanks but they are scattered and not coordinated like your own Pakfronts, or even the positions you encountered at the front earlier.
For an hour the attack drives deeply into the flank of the Corps, and the attacks on Das Reich becomes confused. Some tanks halt and turn others press onwards, yet others just halt.

At this moment, a section from JG53/3 intercepts a transportplane and its escorts from an airfield on the inside of LAH's line of attack. Obviously someone is trying to get out after having led the men from the front. But he doesn't get far. The lumbering transport is brought down with the loss of half the wing over German lines.

The attacks on Das Reich stop completely as the attacks are now themselves under attack from the rear. LAH's spearhead has split up and is now going in different directions, one part going for the head athe other for the tail.
Now is the time for Das Reich to attack westwards against 3rd Mech Corps. You urge them on and press for an attack as soon as possible. Despite the fact that most tanks were facing another way a single reinforced company attacks with infantry in tow. Depsite their rather modest gains, it is soon clear that 3rd Mech is overstretched. They have no tanks left in their rear areas.

Again the attacks on Kampfgruppe Heidekamp slows down, eventually stopping completely as the armoured forces are reorganized to face the new threat. But their position, far from the attack makes it an exercise in futility. You wonder with amazement how this could have happened. The Army commander, or at leas the Front commander was it Rokossovsky? should have ordered a complete halt of 3rd Mech as soon as LAH was gaining momentum on 5th GT. But obviously the order never reached 3rd Mech, and now it is paying a heavy toll for that. As more and more tanks flow westwards the more unstoppable the advance becomes. By nightfall the corps is destroyed as a mobile unit. LAH has achieved much the same results, but 5th GT Corps managed to retreat in order with its 'soft' units.

As night falls the front is almost silent. Both sides completely exhausted from the heavy fighting. As if nature knows this, heavy rains start to fall to wash away the blood, soot and destruction of the day. Making the night a most miserable and cold one for the infantry of both sides.
GD and Totenkopf eventually did take Butovo, but only when Kampgruppe Heidekamp sent a company of Tigers and Panzergrenadiers to help out. You can't help but think it all was some kind of domino-effect. But tomorrow waits another battle, even as the engineers of both sides continue their nightly battles of minefields.

You are told that tomorrow 3rd Panzer Corps, Kempf's men are finally ready, and that Model will likely also start his attack, though he is not too happy about you going in like you did. Hitler is also rather angry with you, but your success has so far kept you clear of his wrath, the capture of land and prisoners will soothe him, but woe to you when you fail in that.
Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is exhausted, and it is quite low on workable tanks. In fact if he had been allowed to retreat you would have lost no less than 10 Panther and 7 Tigers that would have been blown up to prevent capture. They had been in the line as static gunturrets.
The breach ha been widened a good bit, as the capture of Butovo has brought GD into the line next to Totenkopf and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp and the advance of LAH has drastically opened the can in the east. Now 11th Panzer has been able to move up along the flank while 332nd has pulled back to keep an eye on the Rifle divisions down by the old front.

So what will happen tomorow?

1) Order Das Reich, LAH and 11th Panzer to resume the attack towards Oboyan, support with Kampfgruppe Heidekamps where needed. The only sizeable opponent that way is 31st Tank Corps, the last remnant of 1st Tank Army. You are clear of most prepared defenses, so it would be a battle of maneuver.

2) Keep up the attacks on the weakened Russian forces, those of 6th Gurds Rifle Army, 3rd Mech Corps and 5th GT Corps. But in general take it slowly, you men are tired.

3) Understand that Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp are in need of rest, but let the rest do their job. LAH will attack more northeasterly towards open terrain of Prokhorovka, while 11th Panzer will drive across the front and join up with Kempf's forces. Totenkopf will resume it's attacks along with GD to keep the western forces occupied. Eventually they will let 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry take over their positions.

4) Shift your attention from Oboyan to Prokhorovka in total. This will leave 31st Tank Corps in the dust while you have open and free terrain to play with. If you are lucky 3rd Panzer Corps can join up with you there. This of course will mean that Das Reich hav to fight another day at the front, and it's flank is presented to 31st Tank Corps.

5) Sit still and rest the men. Move up the infantry divisions to make certain that your flanks are secure for when you resume the advance. While it sounds silly, to leave the initiative like that, Model and Kempf will start their attacks, drawing off the Russian reinforcements.

Kagemusha
09-14-2005, 13:10
Herr field Marshall.Well done. :bow: Now take option number 3.Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp are so exhausted that you have to resupply them with reserves,ammunition and fuel.The others can move in the depth of the enemys defence.You must pressure Kempf and Model so they start their attacks so Russians have to spread their defences.After that we give them the next blow.

AggonyDuck
09-14-2005, 13:45
Nr.3 now. Keeping some sort of initiative might be useful.. ~:)

Franconicus
09-14-2005, 14:50
4. If you want to attack, keep on pushing! Now that you reached free terrain speed up!

Kraxis, I retreat ~;)

P.S.: Who is the guy we shot down?

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 18:38
Option 3 sounds prudent. I'd like a little more reinforcement, though..

AntiochusIII
09-14-2005, 22:36
Yup. Three is the way to go. Das Reich did its job well, but it suffers losses and its men are exhausted by the continuous fighting. Other divisions which were not as active yesterday can be pushed forward to keep on the initiative. It's not only that others carry their attacks to force the Russians to spread thinner, but you, too, should refuse the Russians a breathing space to concentrate their defenses elsewhere. From the looks of it, their trenches - your greatest trouble - are down, even though they continue to have hordes of men and tanks coming in droves.

JimBob
09-15-2005, 00:23
Definatley get into 31st before 31st gets into you, but let DR and KH sit for a while. Especially Heidekamp, if 17 of their tanks were immobile, and dozens more out, they need to retool.

So three, and I hope as soon as that plane crashed there was at least a truck loaded with a few soldiers rushing towards it with all possible speed. A plane flying out of the way of an offensive means something, usually someone or something important was in the way.

Kraxis
09-15-2005, 01:39
Yeah Franconius, you wanted a pullback. ~;)

About the 'mystery plane'... We won't know just yet, but you could expect a report in the morning. It did after all fall onto the lane created by LAH's advance.

GoreBag
09-15-2005, 01:46
I hope it's a mech suit. Wolfenstein 3D all over again.

DemonArchangel
09-15-2005, 01:54
Rest Heidekamp and DR, keeping them on a rearguard. Choice 3. Also, get ready for a massive Russian counterattack. It's seems a bit suspcious that Russians would give ground as easily as this. Normally, they would fight alot harder.

Questions:

1.) How big is the 31st Tank Corps?
2.) What lies beyond the 31st Tank Corps?
3.) What's defending Prokhorovka?

Kraxis
09-15-2005, 02:59
It is estimated that 31st Tank Corps is a bit stronger than 3rd Mech but not as strong as 5th GT Corps, given it wasn't given the priority reinforcements. In all it is a rather strong formation.

The Russians haven't given up at all, but you have procured a lot of reinforcements in the time prior to the offensive, and you hit them at their strongest (attested by their tenacity, previously they wold just have melted away). By defeating the strongest units by attacking them (where they were thought to have been used offensively obviously) you have negated a very dangerous obstacle to your advance, but the cost has been heavy in materiel and supplies.

The road is pretty much open behind 31st, at least until Oboyan, at which point you should expect strategic reserves to come in. But on a local scale 31st are the last troops. It is possible though, that forces from 10th Tanks Corps might reposition to get in the way, but that could be considered a strategic maneuver.

The reports regarding Prokhorovka are not good, but intelligence officers have pieced together a puzzle that leaves two rather strong units in the vicinity, the 2nd Guards Tanks Corps and 35th Guards Rifle Corps. They do not know how strong they are, but it is felt that the sector behind Belgorod was the weakest part of the line, so they might not be up to specs. Also neither are directly in the area, both a little distance south towards Belgorod. An area 3rd Panzer Corps has as operational area.

Franconicus
09-15-2005, 07:19
Discussed the situation with my staff last night and this is he result:

1. We should never forget that we do not only need a minor success. Killing some corps or armies is just not enough. We need a total victory.
2. The enemy knew we would attack. They have a deep defence zone and big forces for a counter strike, just like they had at Stalingrad. The real battle begins with their counter attack.
3. Now that we have decided to attack we must keep speed. If we slow down the Russians will build fortifications out of nothing. They are masters in this art. And they will fill their lines with reinforcements. We might never be able to move again.
4. From 1 to 3 it is good to make the attack as far as possible in the east.
5. The Russians seem to be surprised still. I guess they wonder why we do not attack from the north. Hope they hesitate too long.
6. Air power is crucial for this battle. Red Air Force is strong now. Maybe the best ground support air force in the world. We have to eliminate them or we will loose. Up to now we used our air force for combat support only. We have to refocus. Fighting the Soviet planes over the battle field is like killing ants one by one. We should take all of our planes for a massive strike against the Soviet air fields. After that we should have one third of our fighters to cover the battle fields and one third of our tactical bombers to support the troops. The rest of our fighters should be free hunting behind the lines. If they are not engaged they will attack convoys and give us more information about what is going on behind the lines. The rest of our tactical bombers as well as all of our level bomber shall attack behind the lines: depots, esp. fuel depots, convoys, railway stations, artillery, headquarters … . On the long run this will be better than direct support on the battle field. Once the counter strike began we can focus our air force on the battle field again. You know the best way to stop a Soviet tank corps is to find the supply convoy and destroy it. Then the Stukas and ground forces can do the rest.
7. Be prepared for the counter strike. Bring enough PAK with you. Have a strong strategic reserve.
8. If only there will be no more rain ~:eek:

Today we know what Manstein did not know: The British intelligence knew about the German plans and Hitler’s orders. Churchill gave this information to Stalin. In our scenario we did not follow Hitler’s order’s. So the Russians were taken by surprise. If this battle will become a disaster for the Soviets Stalin will blame Churchill. He will never trust him again. ~:cool:

Kraxis, hope you do not mind my comments. Your story is brilliant, like usually. You should do that for money. With me as test person of course ~;)

Here are some maps. Best I could find!
http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastfront2/index.htm

Kraxis
09-15-2005, 11:14
Today we know what Manstein did not know: The British intelligence knew about the German plans and Hitler’s orders. Churchill gave this information to Stalin. In our scenario we did not follow Hitler’s order’s. So the Russians were taken by surprise. If this battle will become a disaster for the Soviets Stalin will blame Churchill. He will never trust him again. ~:cool:

Kraxis, hope you do not mind my comments. Your story is brilliant, like usually. You should do that for money. With me as test person of course ~;)

Here are some maps. Best I could find!
http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastfront2/index.htm
Not at all, and quite cleverly deducted. It has indeed figured in my throughts that Lucy has given Stalin info. But by making it a personal battle it has caught them off guard. But Stalin didn't know it was British Intelligence it was kept a secret from him (for the very reason you state as well as the Germans shouldn't know it).

I should point out that this Kursk is not like the original one.
We attacked more than two and half months early, so te Russian defences were nothing like the ones that stopped the Germans. Also the Russians haven't had time to pull units together or reinforce others.
We can't control the airpower directly most of the time, it is under the control of Dessloch, and he is unlike von Richthofen not one for close cooperation. He will of course do things you ask, like yesterday, but don't expect any real control.
But the Russians do have substantial reinforcements ready, though not as substantial as originally (the entire Steppe Front at almost full strength), and they haven't been played yet, but you can expect them to come soon as the road is almost open.

Btw, good maps. They should make it a little easier to understand what is going on.

Franconicus
09-15-2005, 11:37
I do not want to control the air power. They should be able to operate more or less independantly and flexible. But I think we should fix the strategy. And my proposal is:
1. Kill the Red Air Force
2. Attack the area behind the lines
3. Support the fighting dividions to stop the counterstrike.

Kraxis
09-16-2005, 13:08
Shifting the Sands

The days fighting has been heavy, very heavy, and on top of that both Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp have been in the thick of the action since the first hours of the fighting. They need a rest.
"Hermann, let Das Reich sit still for a while, they need to rest. That way they can act as a bulwark against any attacks from 31st Tank Corps. Also put the Kampfgruppe into tactical reserve behind Das Reich, it could be that their heavy tanks are needed if 31st attacks."
The two of you discuss further what should be done tomorrow, and you end up with a general advance towards the northeast, hopefully capturing the divisions at the old front when Kempf finally attacks. Totenkopf and GD will also conduct local attacks to gain better positions for the softer divisions behind them. Then move up to the point near Das Reich, creating a most formidable position for further major attacks.

So far your tanklosses have been rather substantial, but your good mechanics are doing a good job and have been able to keep the numbers of tanks pretty much even since the first disasterous assault.
The air attacks from the Russians started out confused and disorganized, but yesterday they were well coordinated, but they concentrated their forces in the same places as you did, so their attacks came to little due to their slavish adherring to orders, and not changing flightpatterns.

You lay down to rest for a few hours, and as you dose off you hope the following day will be less intensive so you can rest some.
Your sleep is deep and strong, your dreams are vivid. One dream has you standing on a hill yelling to the hundreds of tanks below to charge, from a ridge on the other side hundreds of Russian tanks appear and a brutal battle ensues. You are instantly trnasported into the thick of it, like a ghost, you see men get gunned down climbing out of their strikken tanks, others run around as human torches... You are disgusted by the carnage, you try to scream but nothing comes of it.
With a jolt you are awoken. You aide stands over you, his face concerned.
"Herr Field Marshall, there is an important visitor." Who the hell can that be? I'm pretty much the most important person for thousands of kilometers.
You get up and move out into the noisy and lively headquarters, a short look at the operational clock tells you it is half past 5 in the morning. Hoth is already up does he ever sleep? He is standing by a man sitting in a chair. The man is short and burly built, with a round face, but you can't see it properly due to it being heavily bandaged. As you get closer you can see that both his legs and his left arm are splinted. He is obviously quite wounded. You can hear russian being spoken.
You get up to Hoth who smiles at you. "Who is he?"
"Oh, I forgot to mention it to your aide. This is Nikolai Vatutin."
"Are you kidding me??? A Soviet Marshall?"
"It is him..." Right then you can recognize him, the bandages did a good job of protecting his features.
"Well, what about him?"
"Apparently a section of JG 52 intercepted his transport and forced it to crash behind out lines, the kill was claimed by Oberleutnant Walter Krupinski, the leading ace of the offensive.
So far I have understood that he was leading the attack on Das Reich himself, and that he was about to unleash the most powerful attack yet, he expects that it would have blown through out forces. The attack by LAH really surprised him, he didn't expect it to move that fast."
"Heh... The entire Voronezh Front is without leadership. Impressive."
"Even better, his political commisar and deputy commander, a certain Nikita Khrushchev, was killed in the crash along with the rest of his staff."
"So has he said anything important?"
"No... Sadly he is a bit dased and not in a state to be put under interrogation."
"Hmmm... Hide him away for the moment. Make sure he gets food and drink, I want him to get better so we can get some info from him."
The two MPs at his sides lift the wretched man up and drag him into a backroom at the wave of Hoth's hand.

An oderly comes running. In his hand is a report from Model, it reads:
"Attack started. Resistance heavy. Losses heavy but advance sure. Expect to take Maloarkhangelsk in hours and Ponyri by night. Soviet armour is not to be seen. Be careful."
At the same time Kempf calls and imforms that his attack has started near Belgorod up along the Donets. The Russian forces are breaking up there and he is expecting a rapid advance.

You realize that you can't wait with your own attack of the day, any longer and send 11th Panzer on its cross attack, while LAH gets it's orders to attack as soon as possible. You deside that neither Totenkopf or GD should attack but instead move up at once while 3rd Panzer and 255th should take over.

Throughout the morning you keep in contact with both Model and Kempf. Model reports good progress though with heavy losses. He feels that he can afford it as he has used his infantry divisions for the initial attacks. Kempf is advancing slower than he expected in his first optimistic due to heavy rains, but at least the enemy resistance is far weaker than expected.
The heavy rains are also affecting your troops, and LAH is having a hard time driving through the remains of 5th GT Corps. Their use of hastily prepared positions is formidable, though in general rather futile.
The rains have also kept the attackplanes grounded in the south, this is both a blessing and a curse. No help for your attacking forces but also there is not interdictions or direct attacks on them. You do hear of violent dogfights above the rather low clouds, so for them it is anoter tough day.

Since the day is quite low on intensity for you, you feel you can let Hoth manage on his own. You enter the room in which Vatutin is held, now is the time for interrogation. You feel that your position might have an impact on him. He certainly looks far more clear in the eyes as he stares at you. He looks with a certain arrogance and admiration at you, but you think you can see fear as well when he notices the two SS MPs.

How are you going to aproach him?

1) Play on your hunch that he is a military man above all, one who can relate to other soldiers. Talk to him about previous deeds and various maneuvers. Ask him how he would have done things. In general talk to him as an old comrade in arms, maybe you can gently get soem info out of him.

2) Play good cop/bad cop. You are good and the MPs bad. Play on his fears. His rather burly built, a little too vide around the waist suggests that he is uncommon to pain. Perhaps removing a splint might convince him to talk.

3) Offer him goods, land and the leading position of the Russian Liberation Army. Bribe him. Again his seemingly gentle lifestyle might affect him greatly. Talk also of how Stalin is his worst enemy (look at the purges).

4) Attack his selfconfidence. Tell him how easy it was to defeat him, and how many mistakes he made, especially the one that got him caught. Show great contempt for him. If he is a proud man he might break up, but if he lacks the intiative of German officers he might not be so succeptive.

Franconicus
09-16-2005, 14:31
Hooray, the story is going on.

4 of course.

1) Play on your hunch that he is a military man above all, one who can relate to other soldiers. Talk to him about previous deeds and various maneuvers. Ask him how he would have done things. In general talk to him as an old comrade in arms, maybe you can gently get soem info out of him.Might work. But he has just been caught and I doubt that he is in the mood for some small talk.
2) Play good cop/bad cop. You are good and the MPs bad. Play on his fears. His rather burly built, a little too vide around the waist suggests that he is uncommon to pain. Perhaps removing a splint might convince him to talk.Never. First it won't work. 2nd, you are a Prussian General.
3) Offer him goods, land and the leading position of the Russian Liberation Army. Bribe him. Again his seemingly gentle lifestyle might affect him greatly. Talk also of how Stalin is his worst enemy (look at the purges).
This is absurd. Meanwhile every Soviet soldier believes in a final victory. You have nothing to offer. Things would be different if you knew that Stalin had send his familiy to Sibiria.
4) Attack his selfconfidence. Tell him how easy it was to defeat him, and how many mistakes he made, especially the one that got him caught. Show great contempt for him. If he is a proud man he might break up, but if he lacks the intiative of German officers he might not be so succeptive.
This will work. Generals are idle. Together with the hate against Germans he will talk. Good luck.

Kraxis, what is the wheather forecast?
Could you please call Wolfsschanze. We must have the control of all forces that belong to the attack: the northern group as well as the Luftwaffe.

MoROmeTe
09-16-2005, 17:07
4. After all he is just a Russian commander that got captured and needs to be taught a lesson while getting all the information out of him...

discovery1
09-16-2005, 17:08
Nikita's dead! Even if you do loose, you've still had a huge impact on history. Congradulations!

Hmm, definetly not 3. I doubt one will work. You're not an old comrade in arms. 2 I don't know. Looks can be decieving, and that plane crash probably hurt a lot more than anything you can do. I guess go with four.

DemonArchangel
09-16-2005, 19:57
Not only attack the Russian's self confidence, but also lie to him, tell him that Stalin made him bait, to draw off the Germans while the Russians gathered more mobile forces for a counterattack. Making him lose his trust in Stalin would make him talk more easily.

Kraxis
09-17-2005, 13:58
1) Play on your hunch that he is a military man above all, one who can relate to other soldiers. Talk to him about previous deeds and various maneuvers. Ask him how he would have done things. In general talk to him as an old comrade in arms, maybe you can gently get soem info out of him.Might work. But he has just been caught and I doubt that he is in the mood for some small talk.
Well, it wouldn't be smalltalk at all. It would have been a case where you would come in a play the generous host (getting rid of the MPs and getting food and drink), then sit down and tell him how impressed you have always been of his skills. You know, show him respect. To an extent the opposite of #4. But it is settled now, so don't go about changing your minds. ~:)

Btw, there is no chance that Hitler will grant you complete control, especially not with Jodl, Keitel and not the least von Kluge (he is your friend but you have antagonized him earlier and this would be too much for him) fighting against you. Besides it woud likely be too much for you to handle.
An option could be made, but the character does have a bit of common sense inherently.

The weather is currently bad with heavy rain. The wind in weak so the rain is not liekly to go away soon. At least the rest of the day and night is rainy (so far the weather have been very very good for the Rasputitsa season).

Kraxis
09-17-2005, 16:04
The Russian Connection

You take comfort in Vatutin's look of admiration at you, this should aide you greatly. You look at the two guards, then back at the Russian. You are sure, he is indeed afraid of them, and like dogs they have sensed it too. Their eyes gleam with anticipation. You are quite happy that you can't read their minds. Their posture and Vatutin's obvious fear of them would have a hugely negative impact on your talks here, his whole attention should be on you. You raise your marshall's baton and sweep it round towards the door with a short, sharp and icy cold "Leave us!". The two guards are surprised by this, and you think you hear a muted moan.
The fear in the eyes of Vatutin vanishes but in its stead you can see a concerned distrust.

You start out simply, as much for yourself as for him as the translater has yet to arrive, "Nikolai Vatutin... I had expected more from you."
To your pleasant surprise he answers you in broken German. "Well, events conspired against me..."
This could really help you, it is much easier to convey the true meanings and subleties when there is no need for translators. You also sense that he is slightly anoyed about what you said, his tone was one of defence. You decide that it is a weakness you should exploit.
"Events? You are an experienced commander, you know full and well that events don't just happen, you had a major influence in each and every one."
The Russian is taken aback. "But I could not have done anything about the trafficjam of 6th Guards Army."
You shake your head in disbelief. "Of course you could! You should know that motorized collumns are going to disorganize each other when they meet."
Vatutin is getting confused... "No... But... I can't be in the deep of what all my juniors are doing."
"You chose them, didn't you?! Or at least you could have replaced them with better men?!?!"
"They were perfectly good men."
You bark out a laugh. "Perfectly good men do not bungle up like that! They lost you the artillery of an entire Army, in the most important sector of the front, in either needless losses or confusion. If that is not incompetence I don't know."
He sighs. "Yes, that was indeed a major failure."
"What about your own little offensive against us? How did that go? Two strong Corps basically destroyed... And you yourself, a senior Frontcommander, you are now a prisoner due to your own incompetence."
"Wait a moment, I could have won! I know it."
"You know what?!? I can tell you that you played directly into my plans. You Russians are so damn predictable, you have yet to surprise me with anything."
"But we were about to crush Das Reich."
"To what end? Liebstandarte was on its way to cut you off, and you KNEW it. Yet you did nothing to halt it, you just increased your attacks in the forlorn hope that you could reach safety with 3rd Mechanized, which you also expended needlessly. Against a force of two battalions!"
"I had orders to halt you at any cost."
"Well that is obvious... You threw away basically two entire armies for no gain at all, fool! There was no chance that you could have halted us. And I'll let you in on a little secret, Zhukov knew it, Stalin knew it, damn even we knew it. You were hung out to dry by your very own leadership. That is how much confidence they had in you. 'Yes, let the Germans tire themselves against expendable forces. Who can we spare?' It is not hard to imagine Stavka like that only a month ago."
Vatutin remains silent, but his confidence is shaken.
"Even now we are heading deep into the hinterland. We are already brushing aside 2nd Guards Tanks Corps, hardly worth the fight as they have done nothing important. Your commander of 1st Tank Army is holding back his last remaining forces out of fear of annihilation. The plains behind Oboyan awaits us... Easily!"
Vatutin smiles. "I doubt that. We are stronger than you think. You have underestimated us the entire war, but we have not done the same."
"Underestimated?!?! Hardly! Whenever we have met face to face there has been but one result. Our victory."
"Not this time."
"Is that so... I'm afraid I can't see that. There is nothing between us and victory. Your friends will fail, just like you."
"The Teacher will teach you!" The word rings a bell... The Teacher... Where have I heard that before...
"If he has taught you, then I sincerely doubt it, for that was a lousy job." Your mind races for the clue to The Teacher.
"Haha... Not at all! He is younger than me."
"Makes no difference as there are no forces to stop us, and even one who is vastly better than you is no match for me."
"Never underestimate the ability of the steppe to generate forces." The steppe? Interesting...
"The steppe is vast and empty. The perfect playing ground for my panzers. Let them come. When fools like you are in charge..."
Vatutin angered and hurt, explodes. "You call me a FOOL?! YOU are the fool! You can't see anything beyond your big nose, so you think it isn't there, but we are masters of maskirovka (deception), while you are masters of blindness!!!"
"My dear Nikolai, that is not quite the case." You say with a confident smile, trying feverishly to cover your exitement. You have pieced it together.

You leave Vatutin, but let him drown his feelings in vodka. 'The Teacher' was the name a few captured soldiers had called the diminutive and spectacles equipped Marshall Rotmistrov when they had been interrogated, only a few months earlier. You know that he is usually associated with tanks and Guards. At the same time you have heard passing references to 'The Steppe' in intercepted communiques. It has so far been assumed that it was a reference to Siberia (as people, even entire units were sent to it and never heard of again). Now you are certain that it is a unit, a very large unit of armoured Guard forces, hidden by deception, led by the capable and coolheaded Rotmistrov.

For the rest of the day you follow the ongoing campaign. But the intencity is low and the battles small. By nightfall 11th Panzer and 3rd Panzer Corps have managed to capture the two weak divisions, 31st and 39th Rifle, but both 52nd GR and 375th Rifle managed to escape as they were closer to the opening. An abortive attempt by 2nd GT Corps to keep the hole open failed miserably as their tanks got struck in the mud on the Donets' riverbanks.
The line is now extending from Belgorod inwards along the Donets to a few miles short of Prokhorovka, where the line makes a protusion of LAH almost to the village itself, folloed down the line by GD, Totenkopf and Das Reich, ending with 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry nearest Butovo. 332nd and 167th Infantry both occupy positions inside the bulge. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp has recieved a wellearned rest, and several tanks have returned, especially the fickle Panthers.

The weather is expected to be more rain tomorrow, but less intensive, but a period of a few hours during the night should be fairly dry. But once more the airforces should be contained. Their lack of support has cost you unpleasant losses among the infantry today, but he lack of Russian airattacks have kept the losses among the tanks low as few tanks have opposed your advance and the AT-guns have been scattered and few.

Model's advance has been substantial, but despite rapid gains intially he fell short of his objectives as local reserves were thrown against him. Typically of the foulmouthed general he said to you: "The bast*rds kept throwing sh*t at me." If it hadn't been such a serious issue you would have laughed, no wonder the man is Hitler's favourite, he talks like a grunt.
He did manage to take both Ponyri and Meloarkhangelsk, but Olkhovatka and the ring of hills remained out of his grasp. He expects that if the weather will it, he will take it all tomorrow. In his mind really bad rains will only help him as his infantry will then be able to advance unseen and free of artilleryintervention. And rains does seem to be on their way as the wind is carrying the heavy rains up from the south.

You spend an hour with Hoth talking about 'The Steppe' and it's possible impact on your advance. While you think it is a major problem, Hoth is very unconcerned, he argues that it would take days before any important formation could be ready to attack, and in that time it would be spotted. You on the other hand fear that it might be right in your path, and thus have no need for redeployment, in fact, to the north-northeast you can see a major patch of empty space where no known Russian formations linger. Hoth then argues that you have the momentum against a formation that was itself preparing to attack. To your great pleasure the famous Kurt Student had arrived to interrogate Vatutin further (while a paratrooper he is also a keen intellect on intelligence), and he joined the two of you in the discussions. His idea is born out of his rather special workplace. He advises a nightattack to actually find out what there might be in front of you.

So what will it be?

1) Once more listen to Hoth, and let the attack carry on in a northeasterly direction, past Prokhorovka and onto the big flat plains with few trees and woods. There is hardly any opposition to you besides 2nd GT, but you risk being blunted badly if 'The Steppe' is right in front of you.

2) Launch a general attack towards the north. Your troops are now in place, and you have 3rd Panzer Corps guarding your flank. This is what you have aimed for the previous days. There is no chance the forces arrayed against you can hold you back (31st Tank, remains of 3rd Mech and 5th GT as well as the two lucky breakers from today)

3) Student's idea is rather subversive. Attack with an armoured formation of captured T-34s and with a good sprinkling of Russianspeaking troops, during the clear part of the night. It should get rather far before the ruse is detected. If they detect any new and unknown force you can react to it. But it might cost you some initiative in the day.

SwordsMaster
09-17-2005, 18:02
3. followed by 2. As in: attack with the t34s tonight and launch an offensive next morning on a different sector of the front to keep the russians occupied and give your men more time.

discovery1
09-17-2005, 18:15
I say 3. find out where this 'steppe' is before advancing.

Kagemusha
09-17-2005, 20:48
Number three.The" Steppe" is the Russian reserve Armygroup,and if you dont scout their position, well You will lose this battle.If we can attract them to engage our forces now we can do the Russians same thing on a strategig level, what You did to the forces commanded by Vatutin on a tactical level.What Student is suggestin is genious.The "Steppe" is consisted of Siberian and Caucasian troops and we can masguarade our recon attack as Russians fighting against each other.The effects could be enermous.

AntiochusIII
09-17-2005, 21:22
Number Three. This "Steppe" is clearly a large army of its own and the Russian's hope to defeat you. There is no need to hurry now that the top leadership of the Russian defence is down. It'll only suffer further breakdowns before Stalin would appoint a replacement, and it'll then take time to readjust to the situation. You have plenty of time to make your move. Don't let your flank unguarded against a possible Russian counterattack by this "Steppe" because your forces pushed too far into the Steppes. ~;) Indeed, the initiative may have to be sacrificed but the slowed down place will give extra time for the soldiers to rest and the mechanics to restore the damaged tanks, thus restoring the strength of your divisions.

MoROmeTe
09-18-2005, 21:24
3. Any other option is defeat...

DemonArchangel
09-19-2005, 00:58
Ok, there's a wee little problem here.
Vatutin could be lying to you to throw you off. But still, a night attack with the captured T-34s would be a smart move, provided that you find a way to evacuate your Russian speaking soldiers. (Any night fighters with ground attack capability?)

And a question, has the 3rd PzKorps taken Belogrod yet?

GoreBag
09-19-2005, 01:09
Sure, let's go for number 3. I wouldn't prefer a trick at this point, but I don't care for the other options.

Franconicus
09-19-2005, 08:16
:wall: Why wait? Give the Russians time to dig and bad weather - that is all they need to stop a German attack. We broke their lines. Now push. Once we move we can destroy any Soviet formation. A little recon would be enough.

Kraxis, I would tell this foolish General that he betrayed the secrets you did not know. And tell him that Stalin willget this information when the battle is done. I am sure he will co-operate and give you more details. :disguise:

Kraxis
09-20-2005, 13:08
Cloak and Dagger

Both you and Hoth look at Student with surprise... For a few seconds silence hangs in the air, then Hoth smiles and you blurt out, "my dear Kurt, that is brilliant!"
The three of you quickly organize the troops and tanks needed, but it will take hours before they can be concentrated at the point of LAH. A lot of Russian Hiwis (volounteers) and troops of the Liberation Army are put into the unit, about the size of a reinforced battalion, along with Russianspeaking Germans. But the core of the unit is still purely German.

For hours T-34s cross your front from their various commands to the new one, but at 1 o'clock you don't dare wait any longer, despite the fact that only the equivalent of two reinforced companies have arrived. You send Student to take charge, he of course tries to argue against it, but his subversive skills and his experience with paratroopers is vital to the success, with him he has a panzer advisor in case decisive action needs to be taken.

The Russian troops simply let the formation through as it speeds towards the northeast, they take a few prisoners here and there but nothing important can be learned from them.
At Prokhorovka they capture the railwaystation attendant, for the moment he just says that he only know 'the Steppe' outside his windows.
As the unit advances it is more and more engaged in small scale fighting with MPs and various inquisitory units, but to their great relief no coordinated effort has been made and it seems they are still unknown to the enemy.

At 3:30, nearing the edge of the big empty space, Student and his men encounters a fairly large tank collumn, as they pass each other, the leading German T-34 breaks down. The other collumn drives on as several crews feverishly labours to get the tank working again, but suddenly a Russian mechanics truck halts and offers help. A few Hiwis try to shoo them away, but they want to talk to the crews and small scuffle breaks out, and before long a number of MPs arrive with unpleasant questions asked. Time is up. Student having paid careful attention to the action up front orders the troops to open fire over his radio. Surprised Russians flee to all sides but are gunned down, their tanks are blown apart at the short range, their trucks set afire and a number of are captured.
The glow of the fires clearly illuminates the crosses on the tanks, instead of red stars. The broken down T-34 is pushed aside and the formation speeds on. In a village the report of Germans within their lines (and the nearby action of tanks) causes significant panic and when the Hiwis claim that the Germans are everywhere the Russians simply flee their positions.

At sunrise the formation is deep inside the empty space, but there is nothing there. The civilians claim that only once in a while does soldiers come by, usually mounted on horses, seldomly in armoured cars. It is clear that there indeed isn't anything here. Student prudently orders his troops to move into a nearby little grove and hide, low on fuel and deep inside enemy territory he would have no chance if found.

You feel that you need to save Student and the LAH, reinforced by numerous T-34s is orderedto join up with him, 3 Panzer Corps will guard the flank and GD will fly north into 52nd GR and 375th Rifle divisions, while Totenkopf will try to keep 31st Tank Corps occupied.
Resistance to LAH is confused and several positions are abandoned or is in a hedgehog state. Student and his men have greatly undermined the Russian morale in the sector. Before long Prokhorovka is taken.
GD makes great headway against the two disjoined divisions, the last complete remnants of 6th Guards Army. The lack of fortifications and most of their heavy gear takes a great toll on them, but again they fight with a determination like never before. Losses among the infantry is significant.
The resistance to 3rd Panzer Corps from the unconfused parts of 2nd GT Corps is very fierce and they make little headway along the Donets. Kempf calls off his attacks as he was supposed to guard the flank of your advance, not create it, or become too weak to protect it.

By late afternoon, the rains intensify once again, making further advance slow and costly. You call off the attacks. Today a few sorties were made by both airforces, but were rather limited to very small tactical instances. The lull has given the airmen wellearned restperiods and the effectiveness of the few attacks were quite visible. But the Russian attacks on your rear areas has caused you some concern. Most of your mobile AA is among the tanks up front to cover them, but that has left your rear areas woefully low on air protection. Today the attacks were few and scattered, and easily dealt with by the fighters and few guns. But tomorrow with the coming broken overcast, you can expect a lot more air attacks. This concerns you.

GD made it across the Psel some 5 miles east of Oboyan, on its advance it pushed into the link between 52nd GR and 375th Rifle, sending the latter all the way to the Donets (as it was also pushed out of the way by LAH).
In typical SS manner did Totenkpf advance into the area belonging to the remains of 3rd Mech, advancing steadily on GD's side. Now it is just 4 miles from Oboyan, while 3rd Panzer Division has covered its flanks from attacks from 31st Tank Corps. The day saw the Russian defenders strongly defend their positions, but they were very uncorordinated and lacked a response to breakthroughs. Obviously the capture of Vatutin and the loss of his entire staff is having an effect now.

In reserve you have no less than 11th Panzer (relatively fresh), 332nd Infantry (relatively fresh but lacking equipmen and men) and the 167th Infantry (quite fresh).

LAH didn't make to Student, who has occupied the nearby village to have a strongly defended position in case the Russians come by with strong forces. But a unique situation has presented itself to LAH. The aborted assault by 3rd Panzer Corps left the 2nd GT Corps on the western side of the Donets, while LAH has driven parallel with it. Inside this unclosed bag is of course 2nd GT Corps, but also 375th Rifle and 96th GR Division. To close the bag LAH only needs to attack to the river as there is no bridges inside it. But Student is still alone and he is quite anxious for the men a they are not used to this kind of situation.

You are drawn in several directions for the coming events.

A: Operational directive
1) Orders for the morning: Ignore 2nd GT Corps, let 3rd Panzer Corps deal with it, it is Kempf's job now that LAH is getting ahead. LAH is to try to join up with Student still. The other formations are to to on the offensive directly. Browbeat the Russians!

2) Continue to attack through the night with LAH towards the Donets to cloes the bag on the 2nd GT Corps and its consorts. Let 11h Panzer take point the next day as LAH reduces the pocket and gets reorganized.

3) Try the same but instead let the LAH resume the attack while the two Infantry divisions in the reseve deals with the pocket.

B: AA considerations
1) Let it be as it is. The Russians only attacked the static guns because they are easier to hit in bad weather.

2) Move a majority of the AA back to cover the softer units and the roads. The Russians are obviously interested in blunting you where they can hit you the easiest.

3) Even it out. Neither place should get priority. Danger is obvious everywhere, and you should try to meet it all.

It is given that Dessloch's fighters will try to cover the weak part, but they might not be able to because of their jobs at protecting airfields and the bombers.

AggonyDuck
09-20-2005, 13:45
A. 3 and B.1.

I believe we need to reduce that pocket, but at the same time we need to get to Student. So three is the best choice for that matter.... ~;)
Again when it comes to AA, the importance is to not allow them to concentrate on your fighting forces. ~:)

MoROmeTe
09-20-2005, 14:00
A.3 and B.3. You need to use all of your forces and keep the armoury mobile. And the air threat needs to be addressed at all points...

Franconicus
09-20-2005, 14:58
3 / 3
Now we have to pay the price for not having attacked the Soviet airbases so far. We have to do it at once!

Kraxis, what the hell is Kluges group doing?

Kagemusha
09-20-2005, 16:32
A.3 put the infantry into work they now best.B.3.Where is your Armygroups artillery?Is it far behind,because if they are in supporting range their own AA should cover your forces.

GoreBag
09-20-2005, 19:51
3 and 3. I'd like to send some supplies to to 332. Division, though...well, there'll be time for that after those Russian forces are crushed.

A ruse well played so far.

Kraxis
09-20-2005, 21:11
A few pointers:

von Kluge is the one in command of Model's forces, but unlike you he lets Model play it alone. He has after all a very long front that is anything but secure. You have the stronger forces so you can more safely expect a general stagnant front elsewhere. So he won't actively do anything unless Model manages to get himself into stuff he couldn't get out of again. That is highly unlikely.

The heavy artillery has been evened out a bit, but the day has seen substantial advances, so it has been left behind. It should though get into position during the night (yup, the artillerymen doesn't sleep, shoot at day and move at night). In any case we are talking about the mobile artillery, mostly 20mm, 37mm, a few 40mm, captured Russian 25mm and some dual HMGs such as 13mm and 15mm. There are of course 88s but even these lack the range to cover the frontroops properly (at extreme ranges they will be hard pressed to hit anything the size of Russian close air support planes).

The airforces have not neglected to hit Russian airfields, but the Russians are masters of maskirovka, deception. Many false fields abound in the Russian hinterland. Besides the numbers involved have been problematic. Your own forces are too few to hit the fields properly, while the Russians for once have been spread out rather thinly themselves, so finding them have not been easy (until they begin to near the front).
Obviously Dessloch have concentrated on your forces' pleas for cover and support, the easy and logical approach.

You have no supplies unused to send 332nd per se. It will have to wait until the offensive is over. Also any daily reinforcements will of course go to the main units. The infantry is not likely to get much right now.

Kagemusha
09-20-2005, 21:22
Thanks for the info Kraxis. I cant wait to see what happends next.Great Thread. :bow:

Vykke
09-20-2005, 23:27
I'd actually go with A1. As tempting as that pocket is, if we let something bad happen to Student, then we might have trouble getting clever officers to suggest and lead risky maneuvers in the future. We have to take care of our talented men. Kempf can handle the bag until we have more units on hand that can help him finish it off.

For B, #3 looks good. I don't like the thought of leaving either end of the army exposed.

Kraxis
09-21-2005, 00:03
Advance and Reverse

The attacks on the artillery during the day troubles you... Greatly. Again Hoth is there to offer his opinion, he thinks that it was just because of the weather, and you are inclined to believe him. But what if he is wrong, what if you are wrong, this could turn out very sourly. Against you own gutfeeling you give the order to transfer a lot of the mobile AA back to the rear areas.

Though Hoth was dismayed by that fact he gets a bit more optimistic when you order that the LAH should continue its advance through the night towards the Donets where it will cut off the strong 2nd GT Corps and the two independant divisions. This is action by his tastes.
As the two of you talk, you mention that you want LAH to keep up the attack in the morning and let the two infantry divisions along with 3rd Panzer Corps deal with the pocket. "The Leibstandarte is simply too good to leave behind."
"Agreed, but Erich isn't it going too far? We run a risk of confusion when it leaves while the infanty arrives."
"Yes, that is a serious risk, but as with everything else we have to take chances. You are normally in favour of odd chances."
"Quite right" Hoth says sipping on a glass of cognac. "But I do prefer my chances to be taken when no other options are ready. 11th Panzer?"
"They have figured heavily in my mind, but they aren't as sharp as our prime SS division. A good reserve."

In a short while LAH manages to reach the Donets, pushing into the pocket the now exhausted 375th Rifle Division. While the 2nd GT Corps tries several attempts at breaking up north through LAH, 332nd and 167th move up. 332nd taking the much easier part due west of the bulge while 167th taking up positions at the north.
Thus in the small hours LAH finally begin to move out as the first infantry arrives to take over. In the beginning it all goes well, but soon the two divisions overwhelm the poor roads and long lines of trucks, tanks and artillery gets tuck as one unit tries to get out while the other tries to get in through the same venue.

You are blissfully unaware of this until you ask Hoth when LAH is ready to assume its advance to get to Student. While you reform the supplies of ammo and fuel, he contacts Theodor Wisch, commander of LAH. You only hear the early conversation with half an ear, until Hoth yells "WHAT?!?!? What is going on?!?! Theo, this can't go on!" You grab the phone from Hoth. "Theo, tell me what is going on."
The flustering voice of a man near panic answers you. "My boys are totally locked in place, we can't get anywhere. Those damn 167th troops are clogging the road."
"Give me Meyer!!!"
The competent and strong voice of Kurt Meyer announces the arrival of his strong persona. "Meyer, dismount all infantry, move cross country in line. The tanks should follow you soon afterwards, hopefully this will open up the road enough for some sort of movement. And for the sake of all good, deploy whatever AA you have left."
"Yes, Field Marshall! But we haven't got that much left. Most went away last night and most of what remained was the first out. They are almost clear of 167th."
"What on Earth were the two of you doing?!?!? Why didn't you contact us?!?! We could have gotten in contact with Wolf (Trirenberg, of 167th)."
"Sorry, we were trying ourselves, and of course trying to get this done in a hurry. It didn't seem that bad, but it only got worse all the time."
With a growl you finish. "Well, just get it done... NOW!"
You quickly contact Wolf Trirenberg of 167th and give him an oral beating for his carelessness, then you give him orders of what to do as well, especially regarding the AA.
Then you contact Dessloch, and demand a strong defence of the area, but to your dismay he can't supply you with much as most fighters are tied down escorting bombers going for deep interdiction and rail attacks. But he does call off a few fighter sweeps of various airfields.
Finally you into comtact with Wend von Wietersheim of 11th Panzer and orders him to attack where LAH was supposed to have gone.
This situation gives you the creeps. It is almost the exact duplicate of the Russian situation that sparked the entire offensive, and when the Russians find out... You hit the big map on the operational table. Damn... I risk losing a whole lot here. Why did I send the AA to the rear?! There will be no breakfast this morning.

The sun slowly begins to send rays across the Russian steppes, another day of bloody battles await. But first the morning sorties have to be carried out. Since the sky is dotted with clouds, but none dense enough for rain or close enough to each other to impair visibility, it is perfect weather for ground attacks. Furious attacks on 3rd Panzer Corps and GD inflicts losses, while a few other places are hit, including the big jam.
Within the hour waves of Russian planes arrive. The two staffeln of JG52 put up a wall of destruction, but the numbers are them too much, and many Russian bombers and ground attack planes get free. The fair amount of AA fire does little to stem the tide, numbers were needed to cover this. Death and destruction moves up and down the road. Tanks, halftracks, movers, trucks, cars and all kinds of other vehicles and equipment is destroyed of damaged.
For several hours this carries on, until finally the fightercover returns in force to drive the Russians away.

Losses are immense. Most of LAHs support units have been severely mauled, in fact all the field hospitals have been destroyed and the mechanic shops are wrecked. Losses among the tanks are lower, but Sturmoviks hunted them down in the surrounding fields and plumes of smoke mark the site of each dead tank. Only the infantry managed to get through this relatively unscathed, hiding away from the vehicles they were not very visible, and their own weapons did fairly well at putting up some ad hoc AA fire.
The 167th suffered much the same, but being an infantry division it was less serious, though its artillery was very hard hit.

For all effects LAH has been reduced to two SS infantry regiments with some vehicular support. Trying to make up for his percieved failure Wisch went into the midst of the chaos, and began close-in redirections of vehicles. In the first attack he was injured and is now on his way to the army field hospital. Josef "Sepp" Dietrich has taken over command of the remnants.

As the event unfold you can only sit back and shake your head while Hoth runs around controlling the advance of the other units. This was not how you had hoped the day would start, with the destruction of one of your best units. At least the artillery to the rear was safe. The few attacks on your rear was indeed blasted from the skies by the new concentration of AA. Meanwhile the advancing units suffer continual attacks fom the air. But the Russian losses in the air have been very high. The two JG52 staffeln of some 26 planes was credited with no less than 131 kills for only 6 losses. On this very day Erich Hartmann has brought up his kills for the offensive to a massive 22, while Walter Krupinski still leads with 28 kills. Sadly most of these were escorting fighters.
You pull out LAH and put it into reserve, its infantry should come in handy later on.

The other units advance fast and hard, GD is soon far beyond Oboyan heading for the railroad towards Kursk. 11th Panzer is abit slower because of its recent change of plans, but it too drives hard at the enemy. At about noon, advance elements of it accidentally get into a firefight with Student's detachment, advancing on them (to link up and perhaps catch Russian forces in the rear), because of the quite Russian look of the unit. But soon Student is on his way to your HQ with his prisoners and info.
Totenkopf encircles Oboyan itself while 3rd Panzer manages to keep its place at the flank. For some reason 31st Tank Corps fell back before Totenkopf's attacks. Possibly because of the great interference made by the airforce. It seems it is in fact running out of supplies, but nothing is certain.
The breakthrough has been achieved, and the remnants of both 5th GT Corps and 3rd Mech Corps melted away on this day. Most fleeing to fates unknown, but significant numbers surrendering.

Late in the evening the report from Kempf and the infantry divisions informs you that 2nd GT Corps shouldn't bother you anymore. During the day the entire force tried to cross the river on barges, boats and even swimming. It was slaughter as 3rd Panzer Corps drove up the bank. In the end it captured more than 100 tanks and 20,000 troops.

During the day you order the AA back to its original positions. You realize thatthe Russians might like to destroy the soft belly, but right now they are far too scared about the sharp claws.

Model reports that his troops has advanced well today, but that several reserve formations have headed him off. Also, this have meant that he hasn't been able to encircle any significant enemy formations. Also on this day he finally brought his panzers into action, but the reserves blunted their attacks greatly. Model expects that he will need some time to deal with this.

While talking to Student about everything more or less, an orderly arrives with a manifest, apparently captured at the Prokhorovka train station by Student's men. In it is the list of arrivals for and entire week. What is interesting is the notes for tomorrow. There was supposed to have been an arrival of several very large trains with tanks, infantry and supplies. Several hundred armoured vehicles in all. Of course they won't land there now, but it will come off further east. You believe it is 'the Steppe', finally found, now that the big empty space, was indeed empty. Hoth agrees to an extent, but is less affected by it.

What are you going to do?

1) Now that the most important obstruction to the east has been cleared away, attack with Kempf's forces to the east to head off the enemy reserves obviously on their way (or already here). Support with the two infantry divisions.

2) Send Kempf's forces on a headlong attack north alongside 11th Panzer, while LAH, Kampfgruppe Heidekamp (well rested and mostly back up to strength) and the two infantry divisions take up protective positions towards the east

3) Halt 11th Panzer and GD, have Totenkopf clear its rear, and in general turn to face the new threat. It is strong, it is big and it will hit hard to save Kursk.

4) Ignore the new enemy force. It is far too big to be able to get into action properly for days. By that time you should be able to respond to it.

Cataphract_Of_The_City
09-21-2005, 00:16
3

Threats of this magnitute should be given high priority.

discovery1
09-21-2005, 01:06
1. The Steppe seems like it only just arrived. It shold stil be rather disorganized by the transit. Hit for it hard, hit for it now, before they are ready to fight.

I almost cired when I read about he traffic jam(well sort of....). Terrible. But at least it was an SS unit.

DemonArchangel
09-21-2005, 01:48
3.) The Steppe has probably been here for days, weeks perhaps. It needs to be given our full priority.

That and try to patch up, rest and re-form some of LAHs units. LAH is a very good, solid formation, with plenty of experienced tankers and infantry still alive. The replacement of lost equipment, esp. tanks, should make LAH good again.

Meanwhile, bring Das Reich back up out of reserve duty, and task them with flanking The Steppe.

Btw, what is the strength of the 3rd PzKorps?

discovery1
09-21-2005, 02:06
Still, they still seem to be getting their stuff into position. Surely some portion of it are still disorganized by transit? Attack it now, before the entire force is ready to fight.

Wow. After rereading it I think that the better part of the force(several hundred armored vehicles? how many are armored cars? how many tanks?) was suppose to come in the next day. attack to the east, they wil be very disorganized from the unloading

Uesugi Kenshin
09-21-2005, 02:47
1, avenge the SS even though they deserve to die. The possible benefits greatly outweigh the risks of a bold attack.

AntiochusIII
09-21-2005, 03:51
Hmm...where is Das Reich and how is it doing?

Anyway, I must, with risk, choose choice 1. The traffic jam was a major setback, but the "Steppe" would overwhelm us if we do not take the initiative at attack them before they're in place. At least that will buy us some valuable time for reinforcements and maneuvering. LAH suffered a lot, though. Don't let it take the spearhead; not alone, at least. Oh, and make sure the artillery will be able to support the divisions quickly in case of encounter with the Russian "Steppe," and not somewhere far behind the line.

Indeed, the Russians might not expect us to be so bold and aggressive after the incident today. They could be taken by surprise.

Reverend Joe
09-21-2005, 06:02
Sorry to jump in the middle, but I just found this thread.

Go with option 1. Even if a large portion of The Steppe has deployed, it is preparing for a counterattack, and its commanders do not expect to be thrown on the defensive, especially after the success against a major attacking force.

Try to imgaine, if you will, what wouls have happened at Herbestnebel, if the Allied forces had just attacked 2 days before the offensive began. The result would be complete chaos amongst even the most experienced Heer divisions; it would take days to recover, and by then the Allies would have pushed well into the line. The situation is the same here.

Then again, I operate mainly on instinct in these circumstances- and that has led to some major setbacks, when I try to simulate a situation like this.

Franconicus
09-21-2005, 07:16
1). This Steppe army is still a ghost.Maybe it is simply a propaganda trick. We do not know where they are, how strong they are ... . First priority is to push north. Encircle the enemy in the west. Do not care too much in killing smaler formations on your way. Once we did this we can deal with the counterattack.

Russian attack will come soon, now that we finally broke their lines. Let Kempf attack their Bereitstellungsräume. This will slow them down.

Do we have some small but fast units left, maybe recon units? They could try to take some airfields. Soviet air power is becoming a problem!

Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 08:17
1.Keep the initiative.Kempfs troops and those infantry divisions can suprise the enemy at first,but they cant destroy it themselves.So they are your anvil and your best divisions wich are now back at strength(liebstandarte excluded,take care of them).Will be the hammer that crushes the "Steppe".

Kraxis
09-21-2005, 10:58
Heh... To think I almost forgot about Das Reich... I did think "hmm, something is missing". Well Das Reich is resting, so it will be available to all cases.

#1, will send it along the northern flank of 3rd Panzer Corps (to keep in contact with 11th Panzer).

#2, will have it at ready stations behind the lines, ready to react to any development, be it 31st Tank Corps or any attack from the east.

#3, logically it will be placed very close to the front towards the east to be ready to react at once. If the situation demands it, it will take its place in the line.

#4, as your forces advance they will drive away from each other. At such breakups you will insert Das Reich.

3rd Panzer Corps, consists of 6th, 7th and 19th Panzer divisions, and the 168th Infantry, though it has remained at the back, guarding Belgorod.
It is a rather strong formation, but far from as strong as your SS corps. They lack both infantry and tanks. A total of tanks would be around 210, though quite a few are obsolete. Total strength of manpower is about 33,000. But they are highly motivated and extremely confident.

MoROmeTe
09-21-2005, 13:52
Go with 1. And the Das Reich should get close to the front lines but should not engage just yet...

And also direct all reserves to the LAH. Germany needs it.

Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 13:55
About the deployment of Das Reich,number two.There is your hammer. ~;)

Franconicus
09-21-2005, 15:43
I go for three. We will face a counter attack coming from the east soon. A stretigic reserve ready to stop it is what we need right now!

Kraxis
09-21-2005, 16:05
Wait a moment... Das Reich hasn't got its own choice here. I merely presented what it would do in each case, since I had been so bright as to leave it out of the original choices.

Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 17:25
Kraxis.When you write a number in your post we react. ~D

Franconicus
09-22-2005, 08:33
Kraxis,
I lost the overview. What day do we have now?

Kraxis
09-22-2005, 13:26
The intial choices. Those I wrote in the last chapter.
The later numbers were just what Das Reich would do in each case.

Kraxis
09-22-2005, 14:52
Bulwark

The manifest from Prokhorovka is too much to dismiss for you, you realize that you have a major force on your flank, and to ignore it would be foolish. You pace the room. This is not the time to overreact, the way to Kursk is open, yet a massive force of tanks and troops are on their way it seems.
You call up Dessloch, and give him orders to begin a more thorough recon of the area along the Prokhorovka railroad. You need to know what might be out there.
Then you turn to Hoth. "We can't just drive on, however much we want to."
"You can't be serious... We are on the verge of success. We could be in Kursk tomorrow or the day after that."
"Yes, I know that, but it is a huge risk in case we get hit in the flank. Besides it will still take Model some time to resume his own advance. We can't cover the entire area ourselves, and riving on would only mean that the Russians would stream out of the bulge."
"Then at least let me attack this new force. They are bound to be disorganized."
"We don't know what we face, or where we face it. You could stumble into something you couldn't defeat."
Hoth grumbles something under his breath, but says nothing further.
"Halt the advance, turn 11th Panzer and GD to face east. Have Totenkopf clean up Oboyan and the surrounding areas. Move up 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry to cover the western flank. Make sure LAH gets protection from 332nd and 167th Infantry. Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp should remain near the eastern fron ready to react to any attacks. It should present a very strong front to any attackers."
When Hoth doesn't answer but does begin to contact the divisional commanders you call up Kempf and order his troops be ready to react to attacks but remain in place.

Reluctantly your spearheads turn and redeploy during the night. The troops are not very pleased that they are now about to go over to the defensive, now that they are rapidly advancing. And yet another change of setup once again disrupts the rear areas, but in time ofr the sun to rise your forces are in place.

The early recon missions deep across the area of the railroad, reports that there are indeed heavy forces arriving by rail, and it seems that they are just the last of an immense force. But so far it is not advancing on you.
You let your divisions send out strong recon elements to scout out the nearby territory. Their finds are surprising, the entire front seems to be abandoned. This gets Hoth up from his lethargy.
"We must advance!"
"And spread ourselves even thinner?"
"Are we just going to sit still today? What about tomorrow... And the next day? We are giving up our initiative!"
You don't answer him...

At least the airforces are doing better today, and the returned AA does much to impede the Russian attacks. The many attacks are far less successful than yesterday, while your own attacks hit the incoming trains and collumns at the railroad. The gun-Stukas catches a force of tanks in the open and rip them apart, leaving dosens of rising dark plumes of smoke.

You use the day to reform the lines to a more solid state. The three weakened divisions are put at the head of a point while the stronger forces guardtheir flanks, ready to swing around an advancing enemy. But you still don't know the extent of the enemy forces, what their composition is or who commands them. This bothers you, especially now that you have halted your advance.

Model reports that his advance is slow but sure, though he is suffering heavier and heavier losses, and it seems that by afternoon the Russians got more reinforcements. He is still confident that he will break through at the latests the day after tomorrow.

What will you do?

1) Stay still and await the attack. You are prepared and ready. It shouldn't be able to deeat you. Yo have even laid a plan to trap the enemy forces.

2) Make a limited advance to the north, consisting of Das Reich and Totenkopf, while the rest stays in place.

3) Have the three weakened divisions advance north while the strong forces attack towards the enemy forces in the east.

4) Have Kempf's 3rd Panzer Corps do a limited advance east to get into contact with enemy and acertain his strength, size and command. A recon in force.

Kagemusha
09-22-2005, 15:27
number four.Lets think this a little bit.The "Steppe" has unloaded itself now and are hiding and waiting us to advance in the Kursk,so they can hit us in the flank.We dont want to play their game but we cant just stand still and wait for Stavka to deploy new forces in the area.So lets go and pick a fight with them on our terms.

DemonArchangel
09-22-2005, 15:44
#4 and #3 at the same time.

Reconnaisance by fire is the most effective form of reconnaisance. Just make sure that the 3rd PzKorps doesn't lose any of its good tanks to the Soviets.
Also, bring a few planes along to cause some serious havoc among the Russians and delay them where they are.

Hoth is right though, you can't just sit there. The Russians can use this opportunity to run around your flanks and cut you off (Ouran offensive anyone?). You have to smash the Russians ASAP, even if it means advancing too far.

Franconicus
09-22-2005, 16:35
~:) 2 is the one. Steppe has been attacked by our planes. So they know that we have seen them. If they want to surprise us they have to attack. Now that the gate to Kursk is open we should advance with weak forces. They will be strong enough. This will also provoke the Steppe. When they try to flank our spearhead the strong divisions can attack their flank. They will be done when Model breakes through! That's it ~:cheers:

discovery1
09-26-2005, 12:21
#4


What happened to this thread?....

Kagemusha
09-26-2005, 12:28
#4


What happened to this thread?....

I think we were stuck because there was three different opinions what to do.Now that you decided it,i think Kraxis can continue. ~:)

MoROmeTe
09-26-2005, 15:18
4. Kraxis, let's get this show on the road...

discovery1
09-26-2005, 17:05
I think we were stuck because there was three different opinions what to do.Now that you decided it,i think Kraxis can continue. ~:)

Ah. That makes sense. ty

Kraxis
09-26-2005, 22:13
Actually I was waiting for people to come back. It seemed to have lost interest in people, thus I too lost a bit interest. It is not so fun to do this for the sake of three guys. ~:cool:
I prefer that people answer, even if they can't impact the outcome. I might get ideas for some of the plotline, or some interesting injection. So if you want to say something, please do. Half of it is anyway to see how you guys react to the chapter and to each other.

Boiled down to the most basic: Like all authors I like attention. ~D

Btw, in case of a tie it has been the first poster that gets his way.

Franconicus
09-27-2005, 07:10
I prefer that people answer, even if they can't impact the outcome. Boiled down to the most basic: Like all authors I like attention. ~D
So you mean you do it because you are a bit vain and sado ~;)All right! I'll soon be back with more questions!

discovery1
09-28-2005, 00:17
KRAXIS I NEED MY FIX!



umm, sorry

How strong are the forces Model is facing?

Franconicus
09-28-2005, 07:22
What are the Partisans behind our front doing?

DemonArchangel
09-28-2005, 15:34
Kraxis....

PLEASE POST NOW!!!!!!!

Kraxis
09-28-2005, 15:47
Relax guys... I'm playing BI... But I haven't forgotten you.

The partisans are less organized than in the real offensive, they didn't have the time to coordinate the big operations. But they are doing what they can to disrupt your lines. But that is far behind the front, and not something you are supposed to take care of, or even worr about.

Model is facing the Central Front's 2nd Tank Army and the 13th Army. They are strong and that is why he has not been able to get a breakthrough. But at the moment it is believed that reserves at sent to halt your attack rather than contain Model with certainty.

Franconicus
09-28-2005, 15:50
Relax guys... I'm playing BI...
BI? In this context it means Manstein and Barb Invasion, I guess ~;)

Kommodus
09-28-2005, 16:14
Well, Kraxis, there may be more interest in this thread than you realize. I've followed it but haven't posted, and there are probably more people like me. It's very interesting, but one reason I haven't offered my own input is that I'm not very well versed in WWII grand strategy. I've tried out some of the Close Combat games, but that's tactics and is very different.

Also, sometimes I have a hard time keeping a clear idea in my mind of where units and locations are. In the current scenario, I can't remember if Kursk is to the north while the Steppe is to the east, or if it's the other way around. So I'd be more likely than not to steer the campaign off-course.

Although, the regular posters here seem to have gone a bit awry in the past couple of chapters. After first losing the LAH as an effective fighting force, and then losing the vital initiative, Manstein is on the verge of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree, however, with those who have said it would be wise to focus on destroying the Russian forces before trying to take Kursk. What is Kursk anyway, but one city? No single city could possibly be the key to victory in this war - even if it were Stalingrad, Leningrad, or Moscow. First priority should be given to destroying the Russian armed forces, as in any war. Once that's achieved, cities and lands can be taken at will. It's just that it would probably have been better to attack the Steppe with decisive force before it was organized than to turn a defend against it, allowing it to completely form. Every delay is costly.

DemonArchangel
09-29-2005, 03:48
Kursk holds a critical railway junction that will allow lateral transport down the front. Btw, after Kursk, launch another attack towards Tula to retake what was gained in the Rzhev offensive.

Franconicus
09-29-2005, 09:28
Kursk means nothing. Tank operations like Manstein and Guderian want them do not aim the conquest of single towns. They aim the destruction of the enemy's armies. Towns will then be yours anyway. That is a different view than Hitler's though.
In our game the target is to encircle the forces that are still westwards of Kursk. If I am right, there should be two fronts: the CENTRAL FRONT and the VORONEZH FRONT. If we manage to encircle them and cut off their connection to the eastern armies the third front (STEPPE FRONT) will have to attack us and we can destroy them too. So the target of this operation is the destruction of three Soviet fronts with 2,000 to 4,000 tanksand maybe a miliion red army soldiers.

Kraxis, does my picture fit to our intelligence reports? :book:

P.S.: Commodus is right. There are more than 1,700 views on your story. So there is a high interest. (Even though most of them are my views ~;) )
P.P.S: Kraxis: Just read that every SS formation had its own Flak unit (unlike similar Wehrmachts-units.) So I think it is quite unlikely that Manstein took their own FLAK away from the Leibstandarte.

Franconicus
10-05-2005, 12:39
Kraxis,
this is killing me! :hanged: How can you stop right in the middle of our attack?:charge:

Kagemusha
10-05-2005, 12:45
I agree,give us more.Pleaaseee?~:grouphug:

Kraxis
10-05-2005, 13:44
Franconius that is a good picture, but don't expect a million enemies taken out. In total there is about a million Russian troops, but that includes those on the outside. The number of tanks is quite substantial, true, but we are early in the year.

The SS had their own units of AA? Hmm... well it doesn't really change the situation that happened. There was AA present, but most of the inherent AA had moved out early if you remember (Kurt Meyer complained of that).

Kraxis
10-05-2005, 14:35
Kempf's Deathride

The lack of progress and of contact with the enemy is problematic to you. Hoth is fuming at sitting still, and even Hitler and Guderian has called to ask what is going on. Though Guderian understood your situation he was very much on the side of Hoth, and Hitler was on the verge of a hysterical rage, he demanded further aggressive actions.
To soothe everyone and your own doubts as to what is out there, you call up Kempf: "Kempf, can you send the 3rd Panzer Corps eastwards towards the ominous 'Steppe'?"
"What do you want? My forces can' defeat an enemy of that size..."
"I don't want you to, I just want to know what is out there."
"And you are willing to sacrifice my armoured components?"
"Come on... What am I supposed to do? Somethign has to be done."
"Yeah yeah... We will roll in a few hours."

The advance of 3rd Panzer Corps is swift and rapid, the entire front seems abandoned. Only a few AT ambushes are discovered and some recon forces are brushed aside. Kempf makes sure his forces aren't advanced apart, so the advance itself is a bit slower than expected, but the Corps is a coherent and strong formation still.
5km from the Prokhorovka railroad the Corps makes contact with some light armour formations, T-70s. In a general Russian way they do not give way until mostly destroyed, their infantry breaks and rushes to the rear as the tanks fall back, giving them cover. It is a disciplined withdrawal.
The tanks of 7th Panzer Division tries to take advantage of the withdrawal and rushes after the Russians, but just as the first tanks clear a small crest they halt. The radio chatter increases to a continuous yell as more and more tank commanders blurt out surprises and warnings. They have stumbled into a massive Russian tankforce, several hundred tanks await them one kilometer away, and a furious figth ensues. The 7th Panzers retreat to the crest again and try to hold the Russians but numbers are too great and they fall back.

Within the hour the entire Corps is involved in the fight, artillery and airforces strikes hard, but it seems the Russians were less prepared than the initial contact indicated.
The few prisoners taken during the engagement with the light tanks makes it clear who you are dealing with. They all say the same, they are part of 5th Guards Tanks Army of the Steppe Front. Their haughty and confident posture is vastly different from the usual inevitable broken looks of the Russian prisoners.

All through the engagement Hoth almost begs to be allowed to attack, but you know he will never reach the battle before darkness, you do however advance slowly towards the east to get closer.
During the day Totenkopf also locks heads with the 31st Tank Corps, though neither side tries to advance on its enemy.
And finally, aireal recon indicates that the Russian forces at the head of the bulge are beginning to pack up and move eastwards. It is the beginning of a withdrawal.

Model's advance today was again slow, but faster than yesterday, it seems his tanks have finally broken the back of their opponents, it helped a great deal that the ridge of hills had been taken early and his tanks could now roam on flat plains where the superior gunnery and tactics could inflict staggering losses on the Russians.

Trouble is brewing, but you don't know if you can spare enough to deal with it all.

1) Unleash Hoth towards the east, let him have everything but Totenkopf and LAH, these two will then guards against 31st Tank Corps.

2) Deal with both 31st Tank army and 5th Guards Tanks Army. Totenkopf and Das Reich will encircle 31st while the rest will strike east fast and hard to relieve 3rd Panzer Corps. This does not involve any complicated maneuvering of your forces.

3) Retreat 3rd Panzer Corps to the front again. 5th Guards Tanks Army will follow it and fall into the trap where you can destroy them as a force of maneuver. But who knows, they might not follow 3rd Panzer Corps.

4) 3rd Panzer has occupied 5th Guards Tanks Army for now. They won't be able to strike at you, you have free reign to advance on Kursk. You might be able to close the gap with Model and both deal with 5th GT Army when it fianlly comes. Sadly this migth cost you 3rd Panzer Corps.

Kagemusha
10-05-2005, 14:42
Number 2.We are back in business again.:bow:

Franconicus
10-05-2005, 15:03
Yes, 2 is the one!

We are in business, again!
:curtain:

Thank you, Kraxis!

DemonArchangel
10-05-2005, 21:12
#2, and try to get reinforcements for LAH while you're at it.

discovery1
10-05-2005, 21:34
THANK YOU KRAXIS!!!

2 is the way to go, right now, before the reds get away.

AntiochusIII
10-05-2005, 22:51
2. Deal with the annoyance that is the 31st Russian tank division and in the same time rescue the 3rd Panzer Corps, this way your forces' attention will be undivided. Kursk can wait. If the Steppe army is destroyed, then Russia is down.

Franconicus
10-06-2005, 07:15
Kempf's Deathride

Kraxis,the title of the last chapter is really scarying.~:eek:
By the way, we should replace Kempf. We cannot use a tank commander who is scared to attack enemy forces. He did not even know their size.:no:

Kommodus
10-08-2005, 16:25
Well, option 2 looks like the consensus, but I think I would have chosen option 1. Here's my ignorant analysis:

The general situation: the Russians in the bulge are now attempting to escape (our earlier hesitation having allowed this), so it's important to close the gap quickly. The Russian forces have suffered severe losses, and my guess is that the Steppe is here mainly to cover their retreat. Our objective should be to destroy the Steppe first, then link up with Model in Kursk, cutting off the Russian retreat.

Now for the individual options:

1. This gives us the maximum amount of force to fight the Steppe as quickly as possible. The 31st may cause some trouble, but Totenkopf and the weakened LAH should be able to at least delay it long enough.

2. This is my second-favorite option. It's strong and aggressive, but it weakens the forces sent to fight the Steppe and doesn't make use of the maneuvering abilities at which our forces are so adept. If that battle turns into a bloody stalemate, all will be lost. The Russians can afford it; we can't.

3. If, as I deem, the Steppe is mainly here to cover the Russian retreat, I doubt the Steppe will follow. We've had too much delay as it is; we can't afford more. This is probably the worst option.

4. This is a tricky one, as I like the idea of combining forces with Model for stronger, more unified operations. However, we may not be able to afford the sacrifice of 3rd Panzer. If Kempf is overrun quickly, the Steppe will be able to threaten our advance more than we think, and we may have to turn and face it. Let's get our priorities straight: first destroy the Steppe, then advance to Kursk.

In general, the last few decisions have gone awry, but I can understand why. It seems clear now that the right choices would have involved bold attacks to the east/north, even without knowing the strength of enemy forces. However, people were understandably loth to do this, as it's a tremendous risk - instead, they chose to bide their time and find out what the enemy possessed before committing full forces.

BTW, doesn't it violate some principle of Sun Tzu to fight the enemy when you don't know what they have? Come on, Kraxis, we're a bunch of TW gamers here - what do you expect us to choose?

Franconicus
10-10-2005, 12:06
Kommodus, excellent analysis. However I'd rather sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack me!

Kraxis, do you have a new award? What is it for? Normally you only get it after a successful battle ~;)

Kraxis
10-10-2005, 12:30
Haha... No, no new award. Check it up it is rather old actually. And I'm a little sad that my 2002 HOF award isn't shown, but what the heck. So I haven't gained a star... It is just an old Trait that has become more visible.

Well done Kommodus.
While Sun Tzu says you should know your enemy he also says you should attack him when unprepared. So it was a situation where people had to guage the situation...

Btw, a Death Ride isn't always a physical one. It can just be one where the results could end up deadly. Think of the German battlecruisers' Death Ride at Jutland, not a single ship was lost.

Kraxis
10-10-2005, 15:07
The Visage of 'The Steppe'

That 31st Tank Corps is simply too much for you to bear. "Wipe it out!" You bark at Hoth. "Send Das Reich to help Totenkopf. They must attack pre-dawn and encircle it."
Hoth smiles weakly but gets on it. Meanwhile you keep an eye on the progress in the night. You shold be able to hit the Russians in the morning. But you feel rather neutered. With only GD, 11th Panzer, Kampfgrupper Heidekamp and Kampgruppe Student (though Student is no longer in charge) as serious armoured formations supported by the weakly armoured 3rd Panzer and the weakened LAH, 332nd and 167th, but at least 255th is fairly strong still in StuGs.

It is problematic to say the least. While 3rd Panzer Corps was nowhere near as strong as your 2nd SS Panzer Corps it is still very strong and it is being pushed hard, even now in the night. The forces at your disposal might not be enough... But it needs to be done, Kempf is in trouble.
The line is staggered by all the odd formations and groups, you deside to clean it up by incorporating Kampfgruppe Student into LAH. That should give it a strong punch, meanwhile you have made sure that many of the tankcrews without tanks have been issued with captured T-34s from the various forces and in particular the 2nd GT Corps. It has been hard to coordinate the ammunition and fuel (since it is diesel which German tanks don't use) but at least you now have a division sized kampfgruppe in LAH, though it still lacks artillery and trucks. You let the infantry piggyback on the tanks and all kinds of vehicles. Thus you let LAH lead the attack. The T-34s with infantry should look rather Russian and thus very confusing for the 5th GT Army.

Finally you can see light on the eastern horizon, hundred of planes once again fly towards their targets. This time the battleground in front of the 3rd Panzer Corp. Already fighters are locking horns, the occational bright burning plane or explosion disrupts the beautiful morning. You shake your head at the insanity, then walk inside as your artillery opens up with all it's fury, answered in kind by Russian artillery.
You are brought out of your little trance by a call, its Kempf.

"Herr Fieldmarshall. The Russian attacks are intensifying... I doubt I can hang on much longer. Losses have been heavy. Several smaller units have been cut off. Tanks dwindling fast... I'm having serious trouble keeping the Corps together, the Russians are attacking down our middle."
"Relax! It won't be much longer. Keep falling back, never present an opening and you are safe. The Russians are never good at attacking without their artillery."
Some confidence bounces back into Kempf an he signs off. Meanwhile the thunder of artillery rumbles on as some T-34s pass your HQ. The atack has started.

Das Reich, rested and strong sweeps with great speed around the side of 31st Tank Corps. Surprisingly it responds by turning to face this threat and a furious tankbattle begins. Totenkopf, more tired and worn out acts a bit slower but it quickly moves up anyway. The turned Russian Corps begins to fall apart with the threat in their rear, and the battle winds down as the troops begin a headlong retreat. Though harried by the armoured forces there was to be no encirclement, but at least the armoured components are either destroyed or dispersed.

The main attack lead by the newly envigourated LAH push right into the 5th GT Army. Initial results are very positive. Russian tanks responds to the T-34s with great confusion and they manage to advance deep and fast. But within two hours they are bogged down in battle, the ruse discovered. Right on their heels is Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, and it quickly takes over the battle with the Russian tanks.
Unfortunately 3rd Panzer runs into a prepared position of AT-guns and its limited armoured component suffer serious losses, though an infantry attack dislodges the guns almost right away.
GD advances alongth northern edge of LAH and Kampgruppe Heidekamp. It comes upon a great open shallow valley. At the far end Russian tanks are deploying to attack. The advance halts with contact and GD is pushed back. 11th Panzer quickly rushes to the aid of GD, while Heidekamp lets LAH deal with its local enemies and rushes into the battle too.

Since the moisture of the previous days have evaporated the valley soon becomes a dustbowl. Hundred of tanks advance on each other, fight a swirling melee.
You sit on a hill overlooking the battle, but you can't do anything to help your boys. They have to win this one themselves. And you don't even know what is going on as the explosions and smokeclouds are nameless. At least the attacks on 3rd Panzer Corps have weakened greatly and the infantry divisions have made contact with it.

The battle drags on, hour after hour the tanks battle each other. You fianlly get a few reports from the divisional commanders. Apparently your tanks are doing very well, but losses are to use the words of a most calm orderly "quite unpleasant." To your great dismay you learn that Heidekamp's Tiger was knocked out and he is now unaccounted for. A young Gruppeführer has taken over command of the Kampfgruppe.
You can't stand it any more... The tank battle is simply too much. You fly at the phone and get hold of Kempf.
"ATTACK!!!!"
"But we are seriously weakened... I doubt we can advance far."
"That is not the point! We need to save our tanks, you will get full artillery and aireal support as well as LAH and my infantry. Now ATTACK!!!! For the sake of Germany do it!"
"Yes Herr Fieldmarshall." You sense a bit of venom in that confimation but you think let him hate me as long as he obeys.

Within minutes the artillery bellows again, this time into the woods occupied by Russian infantry and AT-guns. Soon afterwards you can make out the shapes of StuGs and even T-34s advancing on the woods with small shapes in their wake. A Russian barrage hits the advancing troops but they keep moving at an even higher pace. The Russian AT-guns open up and soon a full and furious battle between the guns and the armoured vehicles develops. Under this fire the infantry engages the Russian infantry. The horrors of battle come crashing down on you. As you look you see entire platoons cut down machineguns, men flung high into the air by explosions, but the determination of the attackers carry the day, and the defences are broken. The sounds of battle continue in the woods but they are moving closer and closer towards the area where the Russians are attacking from. Apparently there isn't any stopping Kempf now.

You listen in on the radiochatter, and the battle in valley is indeed overwhelming. Guns firing, men screming as their tanks are hit, commands and orders flying. "Kleine, watch out, T-34 on your flank!" "Cover me, my tracks are gone!" "BAIL OUT!!!!" But soon the chatter becomes more usual "T-34 300 meters, engage." "T-70s retreating, should we follow?" "Where is that ammo?!" "Follow only to edge of valley..." The battle is winding down and the Russians are conseeding you the field.

As night falls you call for all attacks to halt, unless they are on the verge of winning a strong position.

You look at the battlefield... hundreds of tanks are left. Some burning, some smoking, others seemingly undamaged. Some are even entangled.
As night falls you get reports of the battles. Kempf and your infantry managed to drive hard into the stagingareas, where they were thrown again by the retreating tanks. Apparently the Russians are more than just intact as a fighting force, they are ready to fight if need be. The losses to he infantry have been quite heavy, though after the advacne over the open terrain losses declined sharply.

The losses in the valley have been staggering. Some companies were wiped out entirely, other are down to one or two tanks, but worst of all is the fact that Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, which covered the weaker Panzer IVs by staying in front suffered serious losses. Of their total 60% have been knocked out and another 30% damaged. It is estimated that no less than 12 Tigers and 17 Panther are lost entirely. At best it can only return to some 40 combatready heavy tanks, the Panzer IIIs of the formation managed to survive better by keeping close to the bigger tanks and picking off flankers.
Losses among the crews have been devastating. Few have so far made it to the rear, though it is suspected that there are still many hiding under or near knocked out tanks.
At least you can console yourself with the fact that the Russians threw everything at you, and couldn't stop you. Their losses are estimated in several hundred, but so far nothing is certain.

For once Hoth is not pacing the room or arguing with you. His usually strong and vibrant eyes are dead and cold. "That's it Erich... I doubt we can move on now."

Just then a report from Model arrives. He is advancing with great speed, today he finally defeated the last Russian mobile forces opposing him. He will keep advancing through the night

Hoth has nothing to say, he just sulks. Kempf is busing tidying up his forces. You have to make up you mind yourself.

1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

2) Stay put with your current forces and keep an eye on the Steppe Front, while Das Reich and Totenkopf advances towards the east of Kursk. You are certain that his i enough to contain them, but perhaps the two SS divions aren't enough to close the gap.

3) Reform your line to be longer, meaning you advacne somewhat north, but lets Model close the gap and finish the job. Trouble is just that the now fleeing Russians get more time and might be able to put aforce in the way of Model since there is not threat to their rear.

4) Pursue Rotmistrov and 5th GT Army. You should be able to defeat it, perhaps totally. With it out of the picture you could move more securely on the gap. Problem is just that this might take days. And in that time the trapped forces can escape.

AggonyDuck
10-10-2005, 15:37
Well we're in a position where every choice can be deadly. But I believe we need to keep the initiative. So number 1 it is. ~:)

Franconicus
10-10-2005, 16:43
1). Join with Model. The we close the gap and join our forces!~:cheers:

MoROmeTe
10-10-2005, 16:55
I do not want to go 1) although it seems 1) it is...

1) will leave us poorly defended on the Steppe

I would have liked 2) more.

MoROmeTe
10-10-2005, 16:58
deleted, sorry double post, tehnical problems...

MoROmeTe
10-10-2005, 17:01
deleted, triple post, sorry, tehnical glitch

Kagemusha
10-10-2005, 17:13
number 1.Destroy the Steppe and you have won.:bow:

DemonArchangel
10-10-2005, 18:47
1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

Only #1 seems like a good option. However, this seems suspiciously like a trap. The Russians know and they know clearly that the plan is to attack where option #1 will currently attack. I'll go with #1 for now.... I just pray that they don't suddenly counterattack with a dozen of their armies.

Kommodus
10-11-2005, 15:26
Well, it is indeed a pretty pickle we find ourselves in. It is as I feared - the forces sent to fight the Steppe were not strong enough for any more than a phyric victory. They got bogged down in a brutal battle of attrition which the Russians could afford, but we could not. We now have few intact divisions with which to do much of anything; Hoth's despair is understandable.

Now for my ignorant analysis of the remaining options, none of which are very enticing:

1. This seems to be the consensus, but alas, it invites disaster. The 5th GT Army has proven that, despite being defeated, it can still pose a significant threat. This option, which essentially ignores it and drives toward Kursk, will invite a counterattack that could threaten the whole operation.

2. This would be my choice. Das Reich and Totenkopf are probably our two strongest remaining divisions. They might not be enough to close the gap, but at least we don't leave Model alone to do the job (like option 3) or ignore the Steppe (like option 1). If most of the resistance to the north is already gone, which I believe it is, these two divisions should be enough.

3. With this option, the risk is significant that the Russians fleeing the bulge will block Model and escape. It's static, it gives up the initiative, and it's likely to make people like Guderian and Hitler angry, who must already be fed up with earlier delays that have proved so costly. It may be safe, but it has little chance of ultimate success.

4. With this option, the Russians in the bulge will almost certainly escape. This will mean the failure of the entire operation, even if the Steppe is destroyed. With our own forces badly mauled, we need to link up with Model - even if only with part of our forces. Why go on a wild chase after the remnants of the Steppe, when the true objective lies elsewhere? We need to focus on that objective, while making sure the Steppe doesn't come back to bite us in the rear.

So option 2 seems like the right one to me. It gives us a relatively strong chance of closing the gap, while minimizing the risk of a Russian counterattack. This may be our last chance to salvage a floundering operation. Unfortunately, due to earlier responses, that chance may already be lost...

Kommodus
10-11-2005, 15:38
Kommodus, excellent analysis. However I'd rather sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack me!

But as you can see, the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe - only with insufficient forces to force a decisive outcome. Besides, our forces are better used in some kind of offensive blitzkrieg, not a static defense. This isn't a Total War game; waiting for the enemy to come to us won't work.


number 1.Destroy the Steppe and you have won.

Option 1 doesn't destroy the Steppe; it ignores it. Option 4 pursues the Steppe to its destruction, but it doesn't complete the operation either. Our objective isn't to destroy the remnants of the defeated Steppe, but to close the bulge and trap large numbers of Russian forces inside.

Kagemusha
10-11-2005, 15:49
1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

Kommodus.I dont know if i misread the option.But i think, i thought i was concentrating my forces against the "Steppe".And i also thought that the Steppe is the Russian reserve army group in the Central Russian front.Its the only active Russian armygroup in the area anymore.The rest have been beaten.The little i understand about operations in Srategig depth of the enemy is that you are there to destroy the enemy.There isnt really anything important in the sector besides The "Steppe".But i maybe also wrong.:bow:

Kraxis
10-11-2005, 16:09
Option 1 means an advance on the gap with most of the mobile units.

There are the about 800.000 Russians troops inside the bulge.
The Steppe Front is obviously not as strong as its historical counterpart (as with so much), but it is true that its formations are about the only operational formations left.

Kommodus
10-11-2005, 19:01
Kommodus.I dont know if i misread the option.But i think, i thought i was concentrating my forces against the "Steppe".And i also thought that the Steppe is the Russian reserve army group in the Central Russian front.Its the only active Russian armygroup in the area anymore.The rest have been beaten.The little i understand about operations in Srategig depth of the enemy is that you are there to destroy the enemy.There isnt really anything important in the sector besides The "Steppe".But i maybe also wrong.:bow:

My understanding is that the "Steppe" refers to the 5th GT Army of the Steppe front. Perhaps you will recall reading, a few chapters ago, about our first encounter with this force, when the 3rd Panzer went on a reconaissance in force:


The few prisoners taken during the engagement with the light tanks makes it clear who you are dealing with. They all say the same, they are part of 5th Guards Tanks Army of the Steppe Front. Their haughty and confident posture is vastly different from the usual inevitable broken looks of the Russian prisoners.

Therefore, option 1 withdraws forces from the front facing the "Steppe" and concentrates them elsewhere. I understand your confusion, but the option did say, "Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front". It's clear that this does the opposite of what you were hoping for.

Naturally I was hoping for a different course of action. The 5th GT Army may be defeated, but it's not destroyed yet and shouldn't be ignored.

Franconicus
10-12-2005, 07:17
But as you can see, the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe - only with insufficient forces to force a decisive outcome. Besides, our forces are better used in some kind of offensive blitzkrieg, not a static defense. This isn't a Total War game; waiting for the enemy to come to us won't work.
Kommodus, we have to jobs to do: closing the gap and shatter the Steppe. None can wait. Our offensive divisions are not able to do both. So you have to eather split your mobile forces (~:confused: ) or you have to concentrate on one target and leave the other one to the defensive divisions.
So I would suggest to close the gap with our remaining offensive forces and to build a defensive line against the Steppe. You say that this is not in line with Blitzkrieg. I doubt that. Blitz mean concentrate on the most important target. You know that Rommel used to do the same. Let the enemy attack your ATG position until its offensive potential is wasted. Our ATG and 8.8 Flak and Jagdpanzer will do the job. And the Luftwaffe can help.
If we close the gap, the Steppe has to attack and we know where and when. That is all we need to know to stop them.
It was a mistake to fight the Russian tank concentration face to face with our tanks.

Ludens
10-12-2005, 11:40
I may not have been participating (mainly because I always am too late ~D ), but I have been following this with great interest and comparing my choices to those of the others. However, for the last three choices I seem to have misjudged the situation. I feel I am in need of a tactical update.

Which units (German and Russian) are were and how strong are they? ~:confused:

Franconicus
10-12-2005, 11:57
This is the situation as far as I can see:

Manstein's troops managed to brake through the lines. 'Das Reich' and 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler' had severe losses. So they were put behind the first lines. Model finally managed to break through, too. He had losses but his units seem to be intact.
Manstein managed to beat all big armored formation of the defensive line. The rest is threatend to be cut off and not able for a assive attack. They are about to flee. Biggest problem is the Steppe - the strategic reserve of the Soviets. We fought it in a big tank battle. We managed to push them back, but our losses are big. 3rd Panzerkorp and Kempf were hit hard and are no longer a strong tank formation.

So we have:
SS Totenkopf - still strong
SS - Reich - Weakened but recovered
SS Leibstandarte - Refilled and rested

The Soviets have:
The Steppe - we know we hit them hard. But in fact we still do not know if there are more Tank units in the Steppe and how strong they are now.

So the alternatives are:
1) Attack the Steppe and try to decide the battle here. Let Model do the job of closing the gap.
2) Hurry to Model, encircle big parts of the Russian armies. Stop the Steppe (if it is still able to attack) with infantry units. Then go back with the joined Manstein and Model tanks and give the Steppe the rest.

Kraxis
10-12-2005, 14:05
So we have:
SS Totenkopf - still strong
SS - Reich - Weakened but recovered
SS Leibstandarte - Refilled and rested
Very close...

Das Reich is only slightly weakened at the moment. It was pulled back due to exhaustion more than losses.
LAH is certainly not refilled, it has been given the recovered T-34s as a stopgap meassure. It still lacks basically all other types of vehicles. It is hardly very mobile at the moment. It will not move along with the attack north.

Then there is Grossdeutchland, it was strong and ready but now it is severely weakened due to the massive tankbattle. Its infantry is still strong enough, but the tanks and other mobile forces are depleted.
11th Panzer, a good formation to start with is not as weakened as GD due to having been on the flanks, but it too lost a lot of its tanks, and it was already a bit weakened from losses and the fact that is was never brought up to strength.
Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is not dead, but it is close to it. Its losses were very heavy, and this time they will not just come back from the shops. The loss of its commander has also left it in a bit of confusion as his XO got killed early. The commander of the Panthers have taken over, but he is inexperienced in commanding large units outside the tactical field.
3rd Panzer was never a strong armoured formation, and now it is basically little more than a handful of tanks attached to some motorized infantry. It is still very mobile, but lacks the mailed fist.
3rd Panzer Corps is out for the count. It has suffered extremely heavy in terms of tanks and its infantry has suffered serious losses in the last push.
The 332nd is still combatready despite heavy losses early on. Given it's low rank it hasn't recieved any replacements or much other. All its mobile forces are lost.
The 167th is in a similar state, it lost its mobile components to the massive Russian airattack on the traficjam. Its infantry suffered heavy losses in the closing hours of the great tankbattle.
The 255th is still a strong infantrydivision. Its StuGs did suffer losses in that last push, but its infantry went in last and thus was spared the most horrific losses.

DemonArchangel
10-12-2005, 15:08
Ok, ok, obviously losses are getting heavy, and attrition is taking an enormous toll. Quickly try to reorganize our forces, forming a new grouping of whatever armored vehicles and motorized infantry we can scrape together, then smash what's left of the Russians while closing the gap as quickly as possible. I just pray that the Russians don't pull more reserves out from their asses in order to flank our forces. My fear is that the Steppe was just a ruse to deplete our forces before the actual Russian forces attack our lines. Use the infantry to defend the gap against any attacks, have them get ready to dig trench lines and plant a ton of mines so that the Russians can't attack at that point. Meanwhile, demand as many reinforcements as possible, the Kursk salient is a big place and the Russians can attack from any number of directions, including breaking out from behind in the western part of the salient.

Kommodus
10-12-2005, 15:23
Kommodus, we have to jobs to do: closing the gap and shatter the Steppe. None can wait. Our offensive divisions are not able to do both. So you have to eather split your mobile forces (~:confused: ) or you have to concentrate on one target and leave the other one to the defensive divisions.


You and I are talking about two different things. When I said "the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe", I meant the previous decision, which precipitated the massive tank battle, not the decision we are faced with now. Back then, I was puzzled by your comment that you wanted to sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack us, when you had voted for an option that called for an attack on the Steppe and the 31st at the same time.

Now, of course, the situation is different, and of course you are right - we do have two jobs, just as you said, and our offensive divisions certainly can't do both. What you and I want is in fact very similar - we both want to help Model close the gap, while guarding against the Steppe. The only difference is this:

1. You want to pull all mobile forces away from the Steppe front and let the infantry and artillery hold off the Russians in case of a counterattack. This might be the right decision, but I'm simply concerned that it won't be enough to stop them. The Russians still have a number of tanks left; do we really want to face them with no tanks of our own? I would rather leave some tanks behind to keep that front relatively strong.

2. I want to use two of our armoured divisions (Das Reich and Totenkopf) to close the gap, leaving the forces on the Steppe front where they are. As Kraxis pointed out, they are our strongest remaining armoured divisions. Those on the Steppe front are severely weakened, and I doubt they'd provide much additional offensive impetus anyway. They are all badly mauled and could not be expected to do much on the offensive for some time. That's why I say, let them rest, hold tight, and aid in defense.

In answer to the contention that Das Reich and Totenkopf will not be enough to close the gap - of course this is true. But they won't be alone; they'll simply be aiding Model. It's better than leaving the entire job up to him.

I suppose enough people have voted, and the decision is already made. My dear Franconicus, we will soon find out if you are right or if the battle is lost. :-)

Franconicus
10-12-2005, 16:28
I suppose enough people have voted, and the decision is already made. My dear Franconicus, we will soon find out if you are right or if the battle is lost. :-)
Yes! Let the battle begin ~:cheers:

Ludens
10-13-2005, 13:15
Thanks Franconicus and Kraxis. I still have trouble grasping the situation, but that is probably my own fault for reading just after the lectures. :book: :dizzy2:

Franconicus
10-13-2005, 14:07
Ludens, do not worry! Being confused is the natural state during battle. I doubt that most commanders really know what their armies are doing during battle. ~;)

Although most of our troops are exhausted and we lost most of our tanks there is no reason to be sad. What the hell did we expect. Most important thing is that the enemy is in an even worse condition. Two fronts are broken and actually out of business. Steppe is hit hard. I do not expect them to just have been as strong as one of the two other fronts. And I think we destroyed almost all their tanks. (Well, at least I hope so). Model is still very strong and Manstein should be able to deal with Steppe too. So what we have to do is make our victory a total one. :charge: Close the gap, arrest the forces in there, shatter the rest of the Steppe when they try in vain to break through and then march to the Don and built a new defensive line there.

Franconicus
10-18-2005, 08:49
There were some questions about the goals of this operation. Let me summarize my view – although I guess most of this is obvious.

Hitler’s vision was to conquer the USSR, to erase communism and to kill or enslave the Russian population. He recognized that he could not do this without fighting France. To avoid a war on two fronts he wanted to fight France first. However, he believed to get a gentlemen’s agreement with GB. His first steps should be the reunion of all Germans and the creation of a strong army and the control of central Europe. All these thoughts were done in the 20ies.

1939 - Attacking Poland was his last step to get ready for war. Hitler’s plans were always a win or loose strategy. Due to the performance of the German army and the hesitating French and English he won this war.

1940 – Next on his list was France. Again his campaign was an outstanding success. However, he did not know what to do with GB. He was not prepared and he did not really want to conquer Britain. GB did not want to make peace – so Hitler was forced to change his plans. The new strategy was to attack the USSR within some weeks and then attack GB. With the bigger industry and the back secured the Germans would create a bigger air force and a big submarine force.

1941 – After big successes the German attack was stopped before Moscow. So the German strategy of a short war against Russia failed. GB was getting stronger and the US coming closer to war. Hitler’s strategy had failed. There was no alternative plan how to win the war.

1942 – After losses in winter the Germans tried to beat the Russians this summer. They managed to surprise the Russians by attack on the south front. After successes they had the disaster of Stalingrad. It was clear that a victory in Russia was still far.

1943 – The situation was very critical for the Germans. The Turks made the final decision not to join the war against Russia. German allies thought how they could end the engagement. The USA appeared in Africa and in the sky.
Germany had 159 more or less exhausted divisions at the eastern front. The USSR had 400. So it was impossible to come to a final victory this year. But Hitler needed to have a victory for political reasons.
So the goals of Zitadelle were:
- an impressive military victory to impress other nations
- to take as many Russian units out of the game as possible to avoid a Soviet attack this summer and to release some divisions for the western theatre.
- to gain a good defensive position
The Russians tried to use the same strategy as they did at Moscow and Stalingrad. Start with defensive until the German tank forces are exhausted, then start a big counterattack.

DemonArchangel
10-18-2005, 22:23
Look, the decision is already made. The gap will be closed.... And I fear that it might be impossible to hold. Not with 800,000 desperate Russian soldiers in that pocket and the fact that the Russians will rush as many troops to the Kursk region as possible in order to break the Russians out of the pocket. The pincer at the neck is the anvil, but we lack the hammer.

Franconicus
10-19-2005, 06:53
Kraxis,
what is going on at the front? Is the battle over? Did we win?

discovery1
10-25-2005, 21:37
I'm not too sure you need to worry too much about the russian's inside trying to break out, depending on the strenght of their mobile forces. Russians outside trying to relieve them is another matter. Kraxis, what is the strength of the Russian armor inside the pocket to be and outside for that matter?

And we all love you Kraxis!

Kagemusha
10-26-2005, 01:29
I think why Kraxis have not anawered is that we won the battle in Strategig wiew first time,in his interactitie history,but none of s would like to win in real life .:bow:

Kraxis
10-26-2005, 02:29
Nah... We are dealing with von Manstein, an honourable man (though not perfect). And by limiting it to him we are free... Or at least that is how I think about it.

I will post the next chapter tomorrow.

Kagemusha
10-26-2005, 02:57
Thanks m8!~:)

Franconicus
10-26-2005, 07:04
I will post the next chapter tomorrow.
:cheerleader: :dancing: :dancinglock: :knuddel:

And we all love you Kraxis!
That is true!

Kraxis
10-26-2005, 13:35
A Full Bag or What?

Looking at the map, then over at the lethargic Hoth, then back again you realize you need to finish this now and here. This kind of figthing will just drain you too fast.
The Russians are being counted out as it seems, but they might get onto their feet again. But you argue with yourself that you can't afford to not risk this.

You move the markers for GD, 11th and 3rd Panzers out of the line and towards the north to join up with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is too weak to move and LAH is too immobile, while 3rd Panzer Corps is depleted. To cover the gap in the line you drag the infantry divisions out a bit, ending with the strongest, 255th at the north shoulder, while 3rd Panzer Corps still controls the southern shoulder and LAH is in the ceter with Kampfgrupper Heidekamp in local reserve.
You smile at this. A strong line, made out of weak units, that is always something to be proud of.

You turn to Hoth and gives him his instructions to gather the mobile forces for the drive north. His usual lively reaction does not appear, but at least he looks less gloomy.

During the night GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer files north while the remaining units begin to cover their areas. Due to them being positoned close to each other with no units between them the moveout is smooth and fast. You are not even certain that the Russians know you have repositioned your troops.
When dawn breaks Totenkopf and Das Reich leads the attack, and this time there will no stopping them, they will drive through the night if need be.
Model advances south at a good pace, though he is dogged with fighting retreating Russian columns, but their lack of tanks and ready guns leave them easy prey for the tanks of his Army.

Your own tanks advance fast, brushing aside the light units opposing them, generally recon units in armoured cars, but also cavalry and AA units. The Russian airforces attack them in furious attacks but now that the fighting south have halted your own airforces cover the attacks and the airwar turns intense like nothing before. The Russians know they need to halt the attack while your men know they need to keep it free. The concentration of forces lead to one of the greatest airbattles on the frontlines. More than 1000 German planes defend the attacking columns from more than 1600 Russian planes. The sky is filled with black spots swirling, burning and crashing.
While many attacks make it through the cover they are met by determined AA, and their individual status makes it hard for them to make proper attackruns. At one point the Russians finally seem to get the upper hand and more planes manage to get through, but fate would have it that Model ordered that his own cover to fly south and help out. They arrive just in time to stem the tide until planes returning from rearming and refueling can take over again.

You follow the deadly dogfights with great interest. This is the decisive moment, you can't keep out of it.
Suddenly, just as the assault is getting near to the outskirts of Kursk, around 2 o'clock, reports from the infantry line come in. They are under heavy attacks, infantry, tanks everything you can imagine being used are thrown at them. The attacks are made over a broad front, covering your entire line. Artillerybarrages bombard the entire line, taking the local commanders by surprise. The buildup to the attack had gone unnoticed due to the attentions being fixed on the north.
For hours the attacks keep rolling in. Hundreds of tanks and many thousands of infantry attack headlong at your positions. The entire line is under heavy pressure, but it is holding... Just barely, especially LAH is getting a hammering, but is dishing out serious damage itself and has conseeded not a single position.
You want to pull back some forces to stem the tide, but the lure of Kursk is within your grasp now, and your own attackers have now too met retreating columns of Russian infantry and artillery. While they can afford much resistance it is clear that the Russians are getting well underway to clear out the bulge.

By nighttime your forces have been spread out quite significantly, the northern attack is now a good distance from the fighting down south, while the gap between them and Model's spearheads is a mere 5km, including the vital Kursk railroad, which has been confirmed to be greatly used by now.
What to do?

1a) Your sourthern line is doing well, very well in fact. They can hold on. The Russians are obviously throwing everything at them, and have not managed to break through, so the worst should be over by now.
1b) The same but order a general advance along the entire bulge. This should catch the Russians with their pants down and perhaps cause a collapse, or at least a weakening of the retreating formations. But their positions are still strong.

2) Pull back Das Reich and Totenkopf and hit the attacks in their flanks. They should easily roll up the entire Front. But their punch will be lost when the gap is finally closed. Perhaps Russian forces might escape.

3) Pull back GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer and put them into the line where needed. They are not strong enough for offensive actions against an entire Front. The same problem as in 2 might arise, but this time more pronounce since these forces are more numerous than Das Reich and Totenkopf. But they are less mobile and could perhaps not be able to respond to breakthroughs in the same manner.

Franconicus
10-26-2005, 13:57
1a) even though I am not sure what the order is. I assume it is: go on like planed! ALEA JACTA EST. Let's finish what we started.

AggonyDuck
10-26-2005, 14:49
I suppose 1a is the way to go, having panzer divisions running back and forth does us no good.~:)

Ludens
10-26-2005, 15:03
I prefer 1b since I think the Russians are spent and a general attack should be able to mop them up. But 1a sounds good too.

DemonArchangel
10-27-2005, 01:48
Hmm... difficult to say, the gap has to be closed and it has to be closed immediately, or otherwise, the entire encirclement is shot. The problem is that if the Russian attacks are ignored, they might pull an Ouran on our forces.

Close the gap with DR and Totenkopf, tell the defenders to dig in when the Russians let up. I suspect that the worst hasn't even begun yet...

1a

Reverend Joe
10-27-2005, 02:26
Bring down Manstien's Mjollnir! :medievalcheers:

It has already been decided, but I will reinterate- 1a. The southern lines may be having difficulty, but if they can hold on long enough, the Russians will be cut off, and Model can send his own soldiers south to hit the flanks. After all, he probably has more men, since he started so late.

discovery1
10-27-2005, 03:59
Mjollnir? Oh, Thor's hammer. I see...

And I guess 1b. The attacking troops will hold the russians in place, getting more in the bag. But don't press the attacks, except at the neck of course.

Franconicus
10-28-2005, 08:19
This story is drug. I need my kick every day!

:nurse::wacky:

Kagemusha
10-28-2005, 10:18
While it doesnt mean much,but 1b,1a is good also but lets just crush the buggers.:knight:

Franconicus
10-28-2005, 10:56
By the way, has anybody a feeling about what date we have?

Kommodus
10-28-2005, 16:26
I guess it's now down to 1a or 1b. I think we're very lucky that the southern line is holding, and I certainly have my doubts that it will continue to do so, but it's too late to pull back some of our armoured forces now. You'll recall I wanted to leave GD, 11th, and 3rd in place to begin with, to guard against exactly the situation we're faced with now. I think Kraxis is being rather kind to us by letting the southern line hold even as long as it has. Regardless, we must capture the Kursk railroad before the Russians use it to bring in more reinforcements.

There seems to be little difference between 1a and 1b at this point. The only question is how long to wait before ordering the general advance along the bulge. If we do it now, we may catch some retreating Russian formations unprepared, but we risk facing positions that are still strong. If we wait and do it later, the defensive positions may be weaker, but we'll have a harder time catching up to the retreating Russians. It would help to know the strength of our forces stationed along the bulge.

I suppose I would advise launching the advance now. If the Russians in the pocket are allowed to remain unmolested too long, they may try an organized breakout against our severely weakened positions. It would also be in our best interest to reduce the pocket as quickly as possible, in case the Russians are bringing reinforcements from the east (as they almost certainly are). So I would suggest 1b over 1a.

Nevertheless, 1a got the most votes early on, so it is the choice, and once again my opinion goes unheeded. However, I'm not as worried this time: 1a may not be the best choice, but it doesn't seem to lead to utter catastrophe, as long as the Russians don't break through our southern line. However, if that happens, then 1b would be equally disastrous, and nothing would save us.

DemonArchangel
10-30-2005, 18:45
Kommodus, we just need to close a 5km gap with Model, then Model can keep the gap closed while we take DR and TK and attack the Russians in the flank.

Franconicus
11-02-2005, 10:03
Let's face the truth. We won that battle! Don't hesitate to accept this because your are affraid of some 'virtual' Soviet threat.
All we have to do now is to make it a big victory. So let our tanks close the gap, combine with Model. Then let them drive east to the Don. This will be our new line of defense (Hitler will love that!).
Let our infantry take care of the captured Soviets. You should not underestimate them! Though they are not very mobile they have a good combat skill. Unlike infantry in 1939 they have strong defensive abilities in fighting tanks and planes. Let our tanks move and let the infantry do the rest of the job: defense and cracking of strong enemy positions.

DemonArchangel
11-03-2005, 01:39
No, we haven't won the battle. Again, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses, while the Russians can just bring in more and more men to Kursk, or to any other point on the front. Fighting against so many Russians (and later, the allies) is a losing proposition. All we can do is hold them off for as long as possible.

Franconicus
11-03-2005, 07:52
Demon, Idid not say we won the war, just this battle. Yes, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses. What did you expect? This is a big battle. Even after the French campaign the German forces were tired. But the Russians are in an even worse condition. All their major forces are crushed. All their hopes are shattered. So no reason to hesitate now. If we make this a big victory (capture the Russians in the pocket, beat the remaining Steppe and advance to the Don) Stalin may accept a peace offer. Then we would be able to stop the western allies for years - or at least until they can nuke ~:mecry:
Our infantry divisions are still intact. We did not use them a lot. With their 8.8 flak and the tank destroyers they will give any remaining Steppe unit a warm welcome!

King Kurt
11-03-2005, 14:36
Wow - just come across this thread and have been reading it for 2 days expecting to get to the end of the story - but it is still going.

My view? - well break out the russian phrase books and prepare for a few years in the Siberian summer camps. What if the Germans close the gap - will the 2 men and a dog be able to contain the 800,000 Ruskis in the pocket, while keeping the hordes outside of the pocket out the way as well - I don't think so - the fact that the "defeated Steppe groupe" has been battering the whole line the day after their defeat rather paints the picture. This has Stalingrad written all over it - German army doing well, overreaches itself, Hitler doesn't let them retreat, good night Vienna. This is not the Russian army of 1941, this is the army that has turned the germans back outside Moscow and smashed the 6th Army - and as for breaking through to the Don and Stalin making peace - in your dreams. Uncle Joe didn't think about that when the Germans were at the outskirts of Moscow, so why do it when you know eventually you will win. He wouldn't make peace if the germans made it to Vladivostock.

What is interesting about this alternative Kursk is that potenially it will be more disasterious for the Germans than the original. They are sucked right into the salient and potenially can be enveloped. In the actual they didn't get pulled in so far - the russian defences were much stronger - so they took losses, but when the battle ground to a halt, they were able to extract themselves. So roll on the next episode - I sense impending doom for Manstein and his pals.~:cheers:

Franconicus
11-03-2005, 15:32
Hi King,
welcome to our team! This is a very interesting point of view. If you were right - and you might- Manstein should never tried to attack. I think this is the position of Guderian too.
On the other hand - it looks like the Germans under Kraxis command managed to beat the three strongest fronts the Russians have. Even though the Russians may recover faster than the Germans I guess they need at least half a year to start a major operation. If Germans reach the Don they are quiet close to Moscow and they interrupt the connection between Moscow and Stalingrad. Furthermore they have a very good defensive position so they should be able to stand the winter without trouble.

Will the Germans be able to keep 800,000 Russians in the pocket? Sure. They are beaten and cut off. No problem for German infantry. This is exactly the situation Manstein planed to reach. So why worry now? The hordes outside the pocket? Once the armored divisions of Hgr. Süd and HGr. Mitte are combined they should be able to push the Steppe behind the Don.

If my memory serves I read that there were some kind of peace talks between Ribbentrop and Molotow in spring 1943. They ended because the Soviets wanted the borders of 1941 and the Germans did not want to give up all of the conquered territory. Now after Stalin lost 1,000,000 men and several thousand tanks and Hitler facing the Americans in Italy and after Gomorrha there might have been a chance for peace.~:cheers:

King Kurt
11-04-2005, 14:24
Hi Franconicus

I guess I never see the Russians as the kind of guys to make peace. Their approach to war has always been to exhaust the invader with all that open space. After all Napoleon actually made it to Moscow, but it still didn't do him any good. At best any pact in 1943 would have been a pause, not the end. Stalin's view was that Russia had been invaded from the West 3 times during the 20th century and he wanted a nice ring of barrier states to protect his borders - which is what he got in 1945. Besides the casualties would not have frightened him - after all he killed a fair few of his own people to say the least - all he wanted was security and revenge on the Germans for what they had done to his country.What's more the war was a useful tool to unite the country and for him to impose his stringent central control.

As to the 800,000 troops encircled, my view is that by this period of the war, the russian army was not obsessed with communication links, large numbers of these troops, even if not that well supplied, would have just carried on as partisans, not a massive military threat admittedly, but enough to keep a fair few divisions bogged down keeping the lid on. When the Germans loose their fluidity on the easten front they eventually loose. This happened at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk and big time in the destruction of Army group Centre in 1944. Russia always seems like a sponge, you just keep hitting, you eventually tire then them come back with hordes you didn't know they had. Despite the massive losses of 1941 and 42, the Russians managed to produce the men and material to at least hold their own in 1943 and to sweep the Germans back to Berlin in 1944/5. So I still hold to my premise that Manstein's woes began in the summer of 1941. Mind you, I still can't wait for the next episode!!~:cheers:

Ludens
11-04-2005, 16:07
Perhaps you are right and we are overconfident of our success, but if we don't act we will definetly lose. So I say we keep going. No victory without risk!

Unles you have an alternative strategy, off course. If you can convince me, I will change my vote (if it's allowed ~:cool: ).

King Kurt
11-04-2005, 17:23
Hi Ludens

My strategy as Manstein? - well given a free hand, move all my troops back to about Vienna, but I don't think Hitler will smile on this! So, within more narrow parameters, shorten and reenforce my lines, leave the gap at about 5 kms - the german airforce and artillery will destroy the material, tanks, transport, etc a la Falaise Gap - destroying men will not slow the Russians, but material will. The Russians will also have to attack the strengthened line as well, so more chances to favourably wear down their resources. If something goes wrong - where are the nearest Romanians on the German flanks!! - then their necks are not firmly in the noose and it can be withdrawn.

The premise is that the russians having a disaster will not be a big deal. They will draw breathe, wait for winter and come again next year. If the germans have a disaster, the floodgates open and they arrive in Paris about late 1944 - remember they go from about here to berlin in about 10 months in 1944/5 Now that is an interesting scenario - the Warsaw Pact stretches to the Spanish border and the Channel and all Western Europe starts learning russian - so, still want to press on? History is in your hands!!~:cheers:

Reverend Joe
11-04-2005, 17:44
Now that is an interesting scenario - the Warsaw Pact stretches to the Spanish border and the Channel and all Western Europe starts learning russian - so, still want to press on?

:wideeyed: Heavy! In that case, hell yes- press on! ~:cheers:

Kraxis
11-04-2005, 21:21
King Kurt comes with some very valid points here boys.

But a few facts:

Stalin actually contemplated a seperate peace in early summer of 44... Surprised? I most certainly was. But this was before Bagration and its massive success. Russia was at the time almost bled dry, and another bloody advance could have ended up being just as destructive for Stalin as for the Germans. Besides, Stalin had a evil eye on the western allies for good reason, now it was time for them to bleed. Anyway he discarded the idea as soon as Bagration got underway. So Stalin was not beyond making peace.

The Russian forces contained inside the bulge contained prior to the attack about 70% of the Soviet armoured formations (lesser percentage of tanks though, around 50%) and almost all the Guards formations. This was a carefully built up force, meant to batter the Germans into submission (as history proved it could). Should this elite and wellarmed force get almost humiliated in battle then it qwould be a huge blow to Russian morale
These troops aer not the normal run of the mill Russian conscripts, but the best and most experienced the Soviet Union has to offer. They are not replaceable in the normal sense.

Russian formations were never good at fighting when they got surrounded. Sure individual sections and soldiers fought on, but that is nuisance. The organizations were quickly destroyed, compared to basically every other army out there. The Germans and Japanese being particularly persistant when surrounded.
Even the massive forces (which was actually fairly good) at Kiev broke down within a very short time.
The reason for this? Russian supplydumps were in general quite small, geared for movement (this was actually quite advanced). Each soldier took no more than about 15 rounds with him into battle until around 44, of course submachinegunners carried more and troops in urban environments also carried more. And the artillery was highly expedient of ammo because of the tendency to collect it into massive artillery units (artillery armies were not uncommon).

The forces outside the bulge are for the most part now, infantry as their armoured components have been defeated. They do of course have their own integral armoured units, but the armoured divisions are in general terms spent.
Whether they can push through or not... Well that is to be seen.~;)

DemonArchangel
11-05-2005, 01:40
Yea, but if these guys are "elite", then Russia would spent ALOT of resources trying to break them out. King Kurt has a point, but I think we should close the gap, then attack the bulge first, before opening up the gap again. That way, the Russian troops will be even more eager to start running.

Franconicus
11-07-2005, 09:59
Stalin and his generals never cared about losses, elite or not. They would have tried to rescue them. But they never managed to rescue captured troops. At our Kiew scenario the hardest thing was to break through and then fight the counter offensive. The rest should be rather easy.

I do not know why we discuss the strategic goals now that we hopefully managed to get a tactical victory. If the goal of encircling and demolish the Russian armies at Kursk was wrong. Manstein should never started this operation. Now it is too late to worry about it.


The strategic questions are:

Was the war lost in spring 1943?
If yes - could the Germans realize it?
If yes - what should they have done?

In spring 1943 German military was still at his top. They ruled most parts of Europe. Manstein demonstrated that he was able to stop the Soviets even when he was outnumbered.
The Western Aliies did not do much to worry Germany. All right, the submarine war was lost, Africa was lost and propably Italy would fall. So what. That does not touch the core of German military power. The bombing of the RAF caused lot of damage but did not effect the industry (in fact it increased the willingness of the German population to fight) and the USSAF was far too weak to be a real threat. So why give up.
Manstein wrote after the war the he still believed that the war could be won in 1943.
Beating the Soviets would have had several effects:
The Soviets would have lost many brigades. It would have taken until spring 1944 to replace them. Even in Russia there is a point where the resistance breaks down. The Ukraine lost 25% of the population in that war. Think of WW1. The loss of 600,000 to 900,000 men would have a big psychological impact on the Russian and German soldiers. Of course the Soviet government was much more successful in motivate and equip the Russians but in the end Stalin had to think about revolts, maybe even from members of his own party. So I guess peace was possible, if not likely.
A big peace in the East would have released some experienced divisions and some industrial capacities to fight the Americans. So their bombing war would not have been successful for long and the landing in Normandy would have been postponed to at least 1945. So Germany would have controlled Europe and its resources for another year.
And regarding the alternatives: kill Hitler, beat the Russians and make peace with the US. That is what Manstein should have done!

King Kurt
11-07-2005, 12:08
Well - stirred the pot up here, haven't I!

I hadn't heard about Stalin looking for peace in 1944. However, I still feel that this would have been a pause for breath, as opposed to lasting peace. Historically, Russia had been threatened from the West for centuries, so I am sure that Stalin with his deep paranoia would look to secure his borders with a ring of buffer states. Also you can't overlook the pathalogical hatred the Russians had for the Germans after the excesses that had occured so far in the war. I visited the then Soviet Union in 1968 as a 16 year old schoolboy. One of the strong memories I have of that trip was the pride of the Russians of their achievement in the war and how it was ingrained into their whole way of life.

In the West, we have always assumed that the Russians judge things on the same values that we do, but history, since Alexander Nevesky has shown that they have a dogged determination to wait until they achieve what they want, at what cost.

As for the tactical situation, I have always thought that the secret of attacking is to know when to stop. Better to get into a position where the enemy must attack you and let them crash against our defenses than to carry on attacking until you run out of men and resources.

But, most impotantantly where is the next episode!~:cheers:

DemonArchangel
11-07-2005, 16:36
Kurt, we create the gap AFTER we close it and begin to move in to smash the Russians. By applying pressure on the bulge, they will panic more and be more likely to run than fight.

When they run, start massacring them.

Franconicus
11-07-2005, 16:59
As for the tactical situation, I have always thought that the secret of attacking is to know when to stop.:
You mean like the Germans did at Dunkerque? ~;)

Better to get into a position where the enemy must attack you and let them crash against our defenses than to carry on attacking until you run out of men and resources.:
Like the French did with the Maginot? :hide:

But, most impotantantly where is the next episode!~:cheers: You are absolutely right! ~:cheers:

King Kurt
11-08-2005, 12:56
You mean like the Germans did at Dunkerque? ~;) :


They stopped for several reasons - a bloody nose at Arras from the British Matildas, so a bit of caution - Hitler's interference - also the british were not the main target of the attack, the french were, so defeating them was the main object. However, this time there was no miracle on the Marne. As well, the british lost all their equipment at Dunkerque, so the main objective was achieved - the British army didn't come back for 4 years to mainland Europe. A relation was in the british retreat to Dunkerque - he found out Arras had fallen by switching on a radio in a deserted house, tuning into the BBC and hearing that Arras had fallen. trouble was, he and his mates were in Arras at the time!! They slipped out at night and made it back to the UK vis Dunkerque. He was actually stationed on the White cliffs of Dover when he got back and he often told of the first few weeks that their platoon only had 1 rifle between them all, so they had to share



Like the French did with the Maginot? :hide::
This is a perfect example of what not to do. The Germans had absolutely no reason to attack - they could go round it through Belgium. In our Kursk scenario, the Russians have to attack to get their troops out - that's why the sit and let them attack mode would work.


You are absolutely right! ~:cheers:

And we are still waiting!!!

Kraxis
11-08-2005, 16:52
The Road of Death

You feel the strains of command over the last few weeks. You are severely fatigued, depredations of sleep is finally taking its toll. You shake your head to clear out your thoughts... But the shroud settled almost at once and you give in to the impulse to yawn. At ocne you flex all your muscles to wake up your body and this time the clearness stays on.

Looking at the map you take notice of the heavy attacks on your infantryline. The Russians can't flank you, luckily, but they outnumber you in a great extent and the attacks are persistant. 167th Infantry is being pushed back as enemy formations flow off the wavebraker that is LAH onto it.
You look around the HQ, Hoth is still lethargic, in fact he has gone to sleep in a chair. Apparently his strength has been sapped, he is no good to you for the moment, everybody else seems busy on phones, running around with papers and writing orders. You understand that you can't pull anything out of the attack now, no matter how much you want to. Also doing that would likely just clog up the few roads with troops trying to pass each other on single lanes. No the infantry would have to hold alone... Perhaps not entirely alone... Yes... But Hoth is out for the count, you can't send him, besides his speciality is the attack and his overaggressiveness could cause problems for the defenders. When you think about it, only one candidate is possible, you! But who is going to control the advance?

Suddenly you get a call from the advancing formations. Hausser speaks: "We are encountering heavy resistance. It seems the Russians are putting every tanks and gun in our way to keep us from closing the gap."
That's the guy... You can't believe you had forgoten about the toughneck Hausser, the fatigue must be draining your system.
"Hausser, I'm giving you command of Das Reich, Totenkopf, GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer. I need to go back to the other half of our forces to contain the Russian attacks. Flush out the Russian guns with your infantry, keep the artillery onto the gap. I will send all the planes that can be spared to help you out. Don't push it too hard though, we can't afford to lose too many troops and tanks."
"Yes Herr Field Marshall. And good luck, from what I have heard ou will need it."
"Heh, yes, but aren't I known for my luck?"
"No..."
"Haha... Yeah, I guess so, but that just proves I don't need luck."
You hang up and rush out of the HQ to the staff car. You urge the driver to head southeast to the infantryline.

During the drive through the night, you can hear the rumble of the artillery from the spearheads, and the horizon lights up in flashes. Hausser is carrying out the orders. In front of you you see other flashes, more uncoordinated and more spread out. Clearly a battles between the two sides' artillery, but sadly many of your formations lack artillery. LAH and 167th Infantry have lost theirs, 332nd lost some of theirs early in the battle and 255th never got replacements for the losses they suffered in the winter. At least 3rd Panzer Corps have theirs intact.

Above you, nightfighters and nightbombers play their deadly game of hide-and-seek. Once in a while a streak of flames tumble to the ground. Searchlight on both sides of the front sweep the sky. Tonight the nightbattles are particularly intense, a clear extension of the heavy airbattles of the day. Obviously the Russians are giving it their all, nothing is held back.

When you arrive at your new HQ at Kampgruppe Heidekamp, you instantly begin to demand reports of the divisional commanders. The reports are both depressing and uplifting. Losses are significant, but not in a single place have the line been pierced. The lack of operational armoured forces have meant the Russians haven't been able to put a sufficiently heavy attack onto any specific point. The only concentration of tanks were sent right at LAH and her T-34s, the attack got shredded by the tanks and the AT-guns in support. Clearly the Russians attempted to do the usual of trying to break the central formation, but this time they didn't know that it was in an advanced position and was possibly the strongest in terms of armour.
So all in all your forces have held, and inflicted almost impossible losses on their enemies. One company of 167th Infantry even had to leave their position when their sightlines got blocked by knocked out tanks, trucks and dead, the Russians were deftly using the earlier losses to cover their advance.

The night was long and hard on both you and your troops. Unlike normally, there were no pause betwen attacks, just line after line of attacks. It doesn't look like the nimble and probing work of Rokossovsky. This is an attack of a strong will. You have seen this before... It can't be anything but an urgent demand from Stalin. He must be fuming and boiling in his dacha.

Around the time of dawn you get a break. The attacks peeter out and the front becomes silent. You use the time to redress the lines, shift infantry around to keep the front at full strength. Meanwhile the airbattles come to life with full strength once more, but the low cloudcover and light rains keep the affair from enveloping the groundforces in any significant degree. But at least with the forces under Hausser there is development. The gun-Stukas have a field day shooting up retreating tanks, trucks and trains with their low level attacks. Russian fighters try to drive them out bu the low clouds make great hidingplaces and the Stukas pop in and out. Meanwhile the artillery plays havoc on the retreating Russians, the few roads become a mass of tangled equipment and burning vehicles. But Hausser couldn't budge the blocking forces during the night. Model is having similar troubles, and also has to deal with attacks on his flanks.

Just after breakfast the inferno starts up again. Russian artillery concentrates on the weakened 167th Infantry, and is quickly followed up by a dense mass of tank and infantry, the carnage is extreme as the artillery from the surrounding divisions combine onto this formation. But out of the clouds of dust the Russians appear unscathed and their attack is vicious, the defenders put up a valiant fight but are sent reeling away and in less than an hour 167th is split in half. Despite this it tries to close up again, and now the apparent strength of the Russian attack is shown for what it is, a halfhearted effort. The 167th manage to close the gap, but the remaining tanks andinfantry pour into the rear, fighting with rear area troops, artillery and MPs. The uneven fight is devastating for the already depleted 167th. You saw the trouble even before it unfolded and ordered Kampfgruppe Heidekamp to intercept the enemy. Now it arrives in the nick of time to save the tail of 167th. The heavy tanks rip into the Russian formation, the enemy taken completely by surprise as they had been gleefully cutting down rear area troops. The potential disaster is averted.

For hours the Russians keep up the attacks with masses of infantry, but without their tanks they stand little chance of actually winning. Now it just becomes a costly slaughter, costly for you, a slughter for the Russians. You shake your head even as you send Kampfgruppe Heidekamp onto the offensive, driving through the dense masses of attacking infantry. They leave behind a path of destruction, and at one point the Russians even let their artillery attack the Kampfgruppe in the middle of their own infantry. Two Panthers and a Tiger gets immobilized, a serious loss to the severely depleted Kampfgruppe. But this marks the end of the determined attacks, as you see the opportunity for the tanks and launch all armoured forces left to you. The LAH disgourges all its T-34s and remaining Panzer IVs along with the StuGs of 255th Infantry and the surviving panzer of 3rd Panzer Corps. In total about 250 vehicles rumbles through the Russian infantry, and suddenly they are among the artillery. In their haste to attack the Russians hadn't managed to bring their AT-guns with them in any serious capacity. Your tanks ravage the Russian formations for hours and by dusk they can't find any enemy who hasn't fled.
The attack on the infantryline has been not only halted but absolutely crushed.

Meanwhile Hausser finally broke the gunline with his infantry and manage to sever both the railline (though it was already out of working order with all the wreckage blocking it) and the main road. With this final breakthrough the nothern defenders also broke to the east opening the floodgates to Model.
Around midnight two recon units of each attacking formation meet northeast of Kursk. The bag is closed. Behind them, the former gap is a landscape of destruction.

For days more Russian troops manage to infiltrate through your lines to the freedom of the east, but the panzer divisions quickly spread out and any organized escape it halted. With the back broken of the Steppe Front there is little that can support the trapped troops. Despite this several areas suffer Russian attacks in an attempt to take the attention elsewhere. Especially the Orel sector sees strong attacks from armoured components and for a while it seems that they might in fact break through, but just then the leading elements stumble into the Ferdinands of 9th Army on a vast open plain and the attack is brought to an instant halt, and eventually also cut off as Model rushes reserves to close the breach.
Meanwhile you spread out Army Detachment Kempf's remaining corps' to cover the outer wall of the front as you launch the full attack on the trapped troops.

Unlike previous encircled troops these troops fight with vigour for an entire week. But the result is never in doubt and in the end, on the date of 16th of May the last organized forces surrender inside Kursk. It is a staggering victory, the largest of any army to date.
Inside the pocket a total of 811.000 Soviet soldiers are taken prisoner, of these some 40.000 are Guards, outside the pocket in the Orel sector another 31.000 prisoners were taken and finally in total you captured 92.000 prisoners during your advance and the local encirclements, of these 22.000 were Guards. A grand total of 944.000 prisoners. These are at once tranferred to Speer and his efforts to increase the industrial output, as had been the plan all along.
Besides the amazing number of prisoners, you capture 450 tanks (more than 300 of which are T-34s) inside the pocket and another 240 outside, 5000 heavy guns and hundreds of planes, left behind with no fuel. And another prize is Konstantin Rokosovsky himself, apparently sent inside the pocket to break it out, and possibly to punish him for his failure to halt your advance.

Your own troops suffered heavily too, a grand total of more than 70.000 casualties among yours and Model's forces. Both forces were exhausted in the end.

Expended, the Soviet forces are still and unable to do much. In an effort to close the huge gap behind Kursk other sectors are stripped of troops. And for the entirety of the summer German forces along the eastern front make limited gains and take various important local positions. The most important of these is the shore of Lake Ladoga, linking up with the Finnish forces. Leningrad is thus totally encircled with no more supplies coming in. But besides this nothing else happens of importance as several of your strognest units are pulled back to rest and rearm for thei deployment to Italy and Sicily. Hitler, the fool, had allowed the Afrikakorps to get captured in Tunisia.

During autumn Leningrad finally falls after extreme starvation had set in, depleting the garrison. An attack to open a route to the city had failed in August, and only resulted in the German forces increasing the gap betwen the city and the Soviet lines.

The industrial output soars under the command of Speer, and with the success of the Panther at Kursk it is made the principal tank. For months production is low as factories change to produce the tank, but then in late autumn rates skyrocket. Meanwhile the Russian labour made available increases the German manpowerpool with 500.000 at once.

In Sicily the Allied landings suffer setbacks and heavy losses, but eventually after three months of heavy fighting capture the island. The landings in Italy itself bog down each time, but the Germans fall back on their Gustav line where no attacks can make an impression on them. The Allies tries to outflank the line with a landing near Anzio, but the strong German reserves first contain it, then drive it back into the sea. Capturing 40.000 Allied troops.

In the east the war takes a sudden change as seemingly the Soviet hirachy is in turmoil. After the failed offensive to relieve Leningrad, demanded by Stalin, and the city's fall, which got blamed onto General Frolov who was subsequently executed, Konev and Zhukov saw the dark clouds gather and set their differences aside and marched on Moscow with light forces. Stalin had after Kursk become highly volatile and quite unreliable, finally this was too much for the army. The two marshalls' huge popularity with the military gave them a strong backing in the army. Most of the party top was captured, but Stalin and Molotov escaped, and a limited civil war broke out.
Most of the Russian army stayed put at the front while the two factions fought with a few divisions each. But without a highcommand structure they were not able to mount any attacks on the Germans, but they could defend, and the Germans were willing to let the Russians sit there.

The war turned to the west...

Franconicus
11-08-2005, 17:12
~:cheers: :jumping: :cheerleader: :dancing: :2thumbsup: :thumbsup:

We made it. Can't believe it!

Well, Kraxis, this is really your masterpiece! :bow: Congratulation!!

And thank you!

discovery1
11-08-2005, 17:20
VICTORY! Now for some much needed R&R for the God of War. Wasn't he near having a stroke earlier? Civil war in Russia, limited Allied progress in Italy. Wonder what is up in France, and why are the Germans not taking advantage of the strife in Russia? Seems like it would be harder to mount a coordinated defense.

Great work Kraxis. Brilliant Writting. Thanks for taking the time write this. Again, brilliant.

Kommodus
11-08-2005, 17:32
Well, it looks like that's the end. The result is certainly far better for the Germans than I would have expected. The victory is complete and decisive, despite heavy losses. Russia is effectively knocked out of the war, and it's left to the Western allies to finish off the Germans alone.

I admit that I did not expect the German infantry in the southern line to hold out as well as they did. Apparently they did have a few tanks left with them, which I didn't realize. I also didn't think that the 800,000 Russians surrounded in the bulge would succumb so easily; I expected a bit more from an organized breakout.

One wonders how this might've changed history, of course. I would guess that the Western allies would still have won in the end, albeit after a longer period of time and significantly higher losses. Less influence from the Soviet Union on Eastern Europe after the war, perhaps - no Eastern bloc, no Iron Curtain? But, of course, the dreadful holocaust would have been dragged out as well, causing far more deaths. The outcome would've been horrible no matter what.

Kraxis, you've done an excellent job, and I thank you for much thought-provoking entertainment. Because of you I now know much more than I ever did about the battle of Kursk. :bow:

Finally, I have a question: does anyone have links to the earlier Interactive History threads? I have the one about Antiochus, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the others turned out.

Ludens
11-08-2005, 18:59
Well King Kurt, it appears you were right, though in the end option 1 didn't turn out to be as bad as you predicted.

Kraxis, this is a masterpiece. Very well done! I hope there will be many more Interactive Histories. ~:thumb:


Finally, I have a question: does anyone have links to the earlier Interactive History threads? I have the one about Antiochus, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the others turned out.
I second this request. I searched on both the Org and the Com, but I couldn't find them.

SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA
11-08-2005, 20:45
I may be alittle off topic,but i would like to make a question here since its the only place where matters about WW2 are discussed.
Can anybody know why Germany did not attack Turkey ?Doing so it may have been easier to reach the natural resources(oil etc.) of Iraq and Kaspia?It would be easier because Turkey was no match to the army of the Reich.Attacking Russia was a huge blunder.

AggonyDuck
11-08-2005, 21:11
Thank you for your excellent Interactive History.
It has been great fun for me to participate in the decision making. :bow:

Kagemusha
11-08-2005, 21:20
Victory!!:knight: I salute all off you armchair generals, who contributed to this decisive victory.~:cheers: And to Kraxis, Amazing work mate! I followed this Interactive history from the beginning to end and i cant do anything else but say thank you Kraxis,for this adventure in history.:bow:

Kraxis
11-08-2005, 22:53
Thanks all...~:)
I must admit that this has possibly been the most problematic and stressful of all the stories so far, by a great deal I think. Which is possibly why I had so many breaks in the latter choices.

In answer to what I think most people think, or at least will think after these few lines, yes, I have a plan for a new Interactive History. But it will be different in that it changes a few things in history. So in effect I doubt it could have happend, or even begun to happen. Lets call it Interactive Story instead. But mind you, I might never get it started as I lack the info needed.


I admit that I did not expect the German infantry in the southern line to hold out as well as they did. Apparently they did have a few tanks left with them, which I didn't realize. I also didn't think that the 800,000 Russians surrounded in the bulge would succumb so easily; I expected a bit more from an organized breakout.
The infantryline had quite a few tanks and armoured vehicles, but the formations themselves were either depleted or lacking in mobility, so they couldn't move on. Such formations were still formidable on the defensive, but would have suffered greatly if they had attacked, which could still have lead to a total defeat, more complete than the one Germany suffered in reality. So it was a number of the latest choices that lead to victory.
Russian forces were notoriously bad when encircled, initially in the war they didn't even try to get out and were easily captured when supplies ran out (which they did quite fast due to the limited stockpiles they usually held at the front). In 42 they had learne the lesson well enough and now sought to escape encircling actions by any means, this in turn often resulted in routs, though the Germans couldn't always take advantage of that. This time The Russians saw the trouble arriving and tried to flee out rather than fight their way out. So when the final battle for the pocket was made they were in disarray and already low on supplies. Basically they had shot their chance at actually fighting their way out.


Finally, I have a question: does anyone have links to the earlier Interactive History threads? I have the one about Antiochus, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the others turned out.
I'm sorry to say that they are likely lost for eternity. I wrote them more two years ago if not even longer, I can't remember now.
The basic outline is given in the Antiochus history.

discovery1
11-09-2005, 02:48
Oh, and get Hoth drunk. He needs it.

Reverend Joe
11-09-2005, 03:59
Wow. It's over. "We" won.

Wierd.

AntiochusIII
11-09-2005, 05:26
WOOHOO!!!

VICTORY!!!

I can't believe this thread, and von Manstein's exploits, would finally come to such a glorious ending. The greatest military victory ever achieved in terms of scale... Thanks to von Manstein, all's quiet on the Eastern Front. ~;)

Even though the issue that the armchair generals of the .org were leading the Nazis to victory might disturb some, I recognize the sheer fictional scenario we are in; human lives, in the military campaigns, are pure numbers. Stalin hit the nail in the head for the generals, even though he's completely, utterly wrong in personal levels. Besides, who knows what Manstein will do? Rommel is defeated; I'd say that no one in the entire German High Command could compare to Manstein's shining glory after his successful Kursk campaign. He might as well returned a war hero and delivered a successful coup in which he took over the Third Reich and made peace with the allies...or he might not. Tomorrow's not ours to decide.

CONGRATULATIONS!!! ~:cheers:

Even though I, unfortunately, was out of the war for the later stages, I thank you all generals and observers alike, and especially Kraxis. You have been a wonderfully masterful narrator and coordinator of the Interactive History efforts. This campaign is a masterpiece: despite the fact that most people here would find the details of tactical movements by the World War 2 generals far from interesting compare to the set pieces tactical battles of Alexander the Great, you've managed to keep us all on our toes, wondering what the Russians still had up their sleeves, and how far could we pushed forward "today." Congratulations, again, and thank you.

~:) ~:) ~:) :bow: :bow: :bow: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:grouphug: ~:joker:

Franconicus
11-09-2005, 08:11
I may be alittle off topic,but i would like to make a question here since its the only place where matters about WW2 are discussed.
Can anybody know why Germany did not attack Turkey ?Doing so it may have been easier to reach the natural resources(oil etc.) of Iraq and Kaspia?It would be easier because Turkey was no match to the army of the Reich.Attacking Russia was a huge blunder.
Signifer,

why don't you start a new thread for this topic?

MoROmeTe
11-09-2005, 13:17
Great story, Kraxis! And very in the could-have-happened limits...