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cegorach
09-06-2005, 11:32
Here my proposals for Venetian units for OiM TW mod.

The mod starts in 1569 and Venice is the only italian state represented in the mod.

Please correct me if you find any mistakes. The data will be used to create new models and textures so needs to be as much accurate as possible - any images are more than useful.

In addition I neeed names in Italian both plural and singular forms.




Venetian army could be divided into several branches:

- Venetian 'marines' - units serving aboard and sometimes on the ground,

- venetian national, italian units from the capital and territory around this,

- colonial troops recruited from amongst some natives living in colonial estates,

- mercenaries providing some numbers and also good quality units, sometimes they included volunteers from other countries like the french regiments during the war vs the Ottomans for Crete in the XVIIth century.


1. Marines

I believe that only some units should appear in the game

- Scapoli - volunteers armed with some light weapons. For the purpose of the game I believe they should use swords and nothing else.

see image on the picture below. The pistol/axe should be replaced with more reasonable (for the game purposes) sword

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/scapoliballestri.jpg


- Balestieri - arquebusiers. Even though the name means crossbowmen the old term was used often to describe the arquebusier armed 'marines' and it should stay this way.

- Longbowmen (italian name required) - in the XVIIth century longbow was used again in naval combat. The unit should have decent firepower and rate of fire better than arquebusier armed units.

- Venetian nobles - small units of well armoured nobility armed with swords and shields.

See image below (with the galley slave),

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/bravinoble.jpg


2. This is a little complicated. Some units could be represented, but it is hard to tell if they were mercenaries or ordinary Italians but recruited for the army or their masters.

Infantry:

- Palace Guards - more ceremonial than combat unit. It would be good to find more details about them. Probably halberd armed.

- Bravi - bands of thugs employed by some nobles, formed their personal, private armies.
Appeared rather late. Armed with two weapons. Units should be quite numerous - at least 30 men.

Cavalry:

Light cavalry is of course the famous Stradioti, but their equipment was different at different times. So there shoulf be:

- early Stradioti - armed with sabre and a bow they replaced the original Stradioti armed with the famous two-edged throwing spear at least incontinental Venice.
Should be unavailable when more advanced cavalry appears.

check the images on the page:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_italy.html



- late Stradioti with carbines and wearing a helmet and armour, thay were very similar to german arquebusiers, in my opinion at least.



Heavy cavalry is more complicated. I will caunt the Utili as them, even if they were technically light cavalry compared to the Elmetti.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/utilistradioti.jpg

So we have

- Utili - well armed cavalry with lances,

- early Elmetti - even heavier armour and barbed steeds

later replaced with

- Elmetti - they dropped the lances replacing them with two pistols. Should make early Elmetti unavailable.
I have no idea if they used the barding.


Still heavy cavalry should be very rare in Venice. I believe that Elmetti should appear ONLY as bodyguards and early should be pre-Marius unit.


3. Colonial troops

Usually quite unreliable, worse armed and not armoured. Here are my proposals:

- Colonial Militia (early) - bow armed peasant-like unit. Rather poor quality, but rather cheap.

- late Colonial Militia - for bigger and more advanced cities, should replace the early units. Armed with arquebus, still poor quality, but useful especially in defending fortification.

- Sfakioti - Cretan archers - bandits, marauders and rebels, but quite good unit if recruited. Shouldn't be mercenaries I believe, but ordinary albeit hard to get.
Skilled in guerilla combat, so hiding in long grass etc is definietely a must.



cavalry -

- colonial Stradioti - the core of colonial troops. Decent morale and quite good quality. Although their weaponry was somehow outdated.
Armed with lance, bow and shield. They should not use the throwing spear - far too late for this in my opinion.

See the image above.

- dalmatian Cappeletti - more like hussars or Rac than Stradioti. Available only in Dalmatia and Croatia.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/magyar_huszar_018.jpg



4. Mercenaries

The real backbone of the Venetians.
It was quite sensible. They fought wars they could afford and hiring mercenaries was often the only way. Many different units from italian codotieri to german infantry and even Maltanese knights ( in late war for Morea after 1683).
Generally their territory should be teeming with mercenaries of all kinds. I hope the AI will use it quite well...
We will see.


Please correct any mistakes you find.

regards Cegorach

Shark974
09-17-2005, 15:53
In addition I neeed names in Italian both plural and singular forms.

Venetian army could be divided into several branches:

- Venetian 'marines' - units serving aboard and sometimes on the ground,

- venetian national, italian units from the capital and territory around this,

- colonial troops recruited from amongst some natives living in colonial estates,

- mercenaries providing some numbers and also good quality units, sometimes they included volunteers from other countries like the french regiments during the war vs the Ottomans for Crete in the XVIIth century.


1. Marines

I believe that only some units should appear in the game

- Scapoli - "Scapolo" sing. "Scapoli" plu. volunteers armed with some light weapons. For the purpose of the game I believe they should use swords and nothing else.


- Balestieri - "Balestriere" sing. "Balestrieri" plu.arquebusiers . Even though the name means crossbowmen the old term was used often to describe the arquebusier armed 'marines' and it should stay this way. Right

- Longbowmen (italian name required) - "Arciere" sing. "Arcieri" plu.in the XVIIth century longbow was used again in naval combat. The unit should have decent firepower and rate of fire better than arquebusier armed units.

- Venetian nobles - "Nobile Veziano" sing. "Nobili Veneziani" plu.small units of well armoured nobility armed with swords and shields.

2. This is a little complicated. Some units could be represented, but it is hard to tell if they were mercenaries or ordinary Italians but recruited for the army or their masters.

Infantry:

- Palace Guards "Guardia del palazzo" sing. "Guardie del palazzo" plu. - more ceremonial than combat unit. It would be good to find more details about them. Probably halberd armed.The palace guard was supplied by the Arsenale, usually called Arsenalotti they was more than a cerimonial unit as they was the best equipped motivated and effective infantry unit of Venice

- Bravi - bands of thugs employed by some nobles, formed their personal, private armies.
Appeared rather late. Armed with two weapons. Units should be quite numerous - at least 30 men.Bravi was bodyguards and private killers, skilled in sword and knife duel I doubt they was never employed in field battles

Cavalry:

Light cavalry is of course the famous Stradioti, but their equipment was different at different times. So there shoulf be:

"Stradiotto" sing. "Stradioti" plu.- early Stradioti - armed with sabre and a bow they replaced the original Stradioti armed with the famous two-edged throwing spear at least incontinental Venice.
Should be unavailable when more advanced cavalry appears.

- late Stradioti with carbines and wearing a helmet and armour, thay were very similar to german arquebusiers, in my opinion at least. they was less armoured than german arquebusiers just a frontal plate on torso



Heavy cavalry is more complicated. I will caunt the Utili as them, even if they were technically light cavalry compared to the Elmetti. Utili was heavy cavalry, they wear less expensive and sometime uncompleted armours, b.t.w. as the mod start in 1596 you can overpass the Utili/Elmetti and have one heavy cavalry as general bodyguard, one lighter equipped with lance, upper body armour and not horse bard called "Cavalleggeri", more another cavalry looking like german "Reiters" armoured, two pistols, no horse bard, name is "Corazzieri", finally a mounted infanty unit "Dragoni" they was evolution of mounted arquebusiers, no armour, they shoot dismounted

3. Colonial troops

Usually quite unreliable, worse armed and not armoured. Here are my proposals:

- Colonial Militia (early) "Miliaziano coloniale" sing. "Milizia colonaile" plu.- bow armed peasant-like unit. Rather poor quality, but rather cheap.

- late Colonial Militia - for bigger and more advanced cities, should replace the early units. Armed with arquebus, still poor quality, but useful especially in defending fortification.

- Sfakioti - Cretan archers - bandits, marauders and rebels, but quite good unit if recruited. Shouldn't be mercenaries I believe, but ordinary albeit hard to get.
Skilled in guerilla combat, so hiding in long grass etc is definietely a must.



cavalry -

- colonial Stradioti - the core of colonial troops. Decent morale and quite good quality. Although their weaponry was somehow outdated.
Armed with lance, bow and shield. They should not use the throwing spear - far too late for this in my opinion.


- dalmatian Cappeletti "Cappelletto" sing. "Cappelletti" plu. - more like hussars or Rac than Stradioti. Available only in Dalmatia and Croatia.



4. Mercenaries

The real backbone of the Venetians.
It was quite sensible. They fought wars they could afford and hiring mercenaries was often the only way. Many different units from italian codotieri to german infantry and even Maltanese knights ( in late war for Morea after 1683).
Generally their territory should be teeming with mercenaries of all kinds. I hope the AI will use it quite well...
We will see.


Please correct any mistakes you find.

cegorach
09-24-2005, 12:28
- Palace Guards "Guardia del palazzo" sing. "Guardie del palazzo" plu. - more ceremonial than combat unit. It would be good to find more details about them. Probably halberd armed.The palace guard was supplied by the Arsenale, usually called Arsenalotti they was more than a cerimonial unit as they was the best equipped motivated and effective infantry unit of Venice

- Bravi - bands of thugs employed by some nobles, formed their personal, private armies.
Appeared rather late. Armed with two weapons. Units should be quite numerous - at least 30 men.Bravi was bodyguards and private killers, skilled in sword and knife duel I doubt they was never employed in field battles

---------->

Thank you Shark !

About the Palace Guards - were they using halberds, pikes or muskets ?
Can you give me more details because it seems a very interesting unit.

I think that Bravi will be used like Arcani in RTW - rather small units with limited use on the battlefield.

Regards Cegorach ~;)

Shark974
10-19-2005, 11:29
About the Palace Guards - were they using halberds, pikes or muskets ?
Can you give me more details because it seems a very interesting unit.

http://www.dse.unive.it/storia/Arsenale.htm
Scroll down untill you found a figure armed with halbard, that is an Arsenalotto equipped for "guardia di Palazzo" service, considering the period of you mod that is the best image of Arsenallotto I found.
However if you look for a 100% historical realism there is a problem, following a law of 1568 by senate of Venice, it was forbidden to employ Arsenalotti as fightings units both il land and in sea.

cegorach
10-22-2005, 10:50
Thanks ! :bow: ~:cheers:

Very useful. ~D