View Full Version : Franks (BI faction)
frogbeastegg
10-02-2005, 18:47
Guide.
Craterus
10-02-2005, 20:42
I'm going to start a Frank campaign as my first, would anybody like to join me?
Oh yeah, I got BI!!! Should be installing later, or tomorrow.
Theodoret
10-03-2005, 21:52
Perhaps not a definative guide to the Franks, seeing as I only got hold of the expansion a couple of days ago. More a starting narrative.
The Franks have a starting position both good and bad in equal measure. On the up side, they are some way off the beaten track for Vandal and Hun migrations. On the down side they are close to the heartlands of four Germanic tribes (Saxons, Burgundians, Alemanni and Lombards) which sets the stage for early conflict.
A quick look at the appendices of the game instructions told me that the Saxons are going to be aiming for more or less the same lands (France and the Low Countries) as I am. Therefore I decided that the Saxons were to be the first to die.
I reinforced the army I began with and waited for the Saxons to send an army away from their capital. At the same time I began setting up agreements with my other neighbours to try and discourage any attacks from them. Its worth investing in better walls for the Frankish capital early on as it is fairly exposed.
Once the Saxons were merrily laying siege to the settlement in Frisia, I sent my army north to attack their capital, and took it before their expeditionary force could return. A few turns of consolidation and the Kingdom of the Franks had expanded to contain Saxony, Jutland and Frisia.
Meanwhile the Burgundians and Lombards were engaged in an indecisive conflict, so I began to plot the downfall of the Alemanni. Unfortunately, some wannabe Caesar posted on the Rhine decided to send the Roman Legions to attack me, causing a sharp shift in policy. I had hoped to absorb the weaker Germannic tribes before driving westwards. As it was, I was forced to set my armies against superior Roman numbers.
The Roman army isn't what it once was - think Hastati backed up by archers and town watch. The Frankish host on the other hand is rather effective. The Frankish levys by themselves are no match for Commitates, but they make an effective anvil. Their javalins combined with spears make them rather dangerous to cavalry, and they are very durable formed into a shield wall. The other key element to the early game Frankish army is raider cavalry. Okay, they aren't cataphracts, but they are cheap enough to take in quantity.
Fighting the Romans proved easier than I had feared. They had no cavalry to speak of, so I was able to outmanouvre them break up their battle line and defeat them piecemeal.
Sieges however, are a different matter. The Romans seem to have been continually adding layers to their city walls over the last 363 years, and the Franks don't start out with much in the way of siege troops. Augusta Vindelicorum was my first target. I hired some vetenary legionnaries to give my army some assault punch and used these to scale the walls and tie up the defenders whilst I rushed levy troops through a sapped breach in the wall and to the town square. The main problem with Roman cities in Gaul is the size. It takes ages to get to the town square, all the time being peppered by arrows. In later sieges I used swordsmen and axemen, but I am coming to the conclusion that levies are the best choice to assault as most of your casualties will come from the arrow towers and they don't seem to distinguish much.
What surprises me about the Romans is that once you have crossed the Rhine, its fairly easy going. I made sure that I kept on advancing, as the Roman cities are big enough and advanced enough to produce pretty decent armies if given the time. Gaul is full of mercenaries, so reinforcements are not so great a problem as you might expect. I suspect that if things got more exciting on the Eastern front, then defeating the Romans might be more difficult. I was lucky as the Burgundians and Lombards were at each others throats all the time, and the Alemmani had problems with migrating Sarmatians.
I currently hold all Gaul, along with my Germannic possesions, and I'm preparing my invasion of Britannia. I also need to evict some Sarmatians who seem intent on setting up home in my lands.
Quick summary:
Thin out the ranks of your neighbouring tribes at the outset.
Fortify your cities.
Use levy/cavalry combinations to smash the Roman frontier armies.
Expand rapidly into Gaul before the Romans can pump out new armies.
Use levys to do the fighting in sieges.
Craterus
10-03-2005, 22:04
Well, you started out much the same as I did. I've got the stone wall queued in after Weaponsmith, Hall of Heroes and Cavalry Stables (not sure of exact name of the cav suppliers)
Anyway, my plan is to take the Saxons, and then launch an invasion through the land-now-known-as-Belgium (a la Schlieffen) and maybe send an army or two over the channel while I take Northern France.
Hearing that barbarian alliances tend to hold strong, I have made an alliance with the Alans, and I hope they'll keep to it as I have sent most men up to deal with Saxons. After 3 turns, I came to a battle, and then the CTD. So no more play for a while :bigcry:
Garvanko
10-03-2005, 22:29
Interesting to see you both go for the Saxons straight away. I took a different track.
Merged my Heirs army with the Leader (and retrained them to +3 exp) and went straight across the bridge for the WRE (well I waited till their full stuck went AWOL down south) - I think there was an early rebellion so that helped matters. Quickly took the city then, even more quickly, struck a ceasefire, which the WRE held, while I built up my forces for two other surgical strike on their fortresses up north. Waited again for their full stacks to wander off before I attacked first with my spy at the city above, then with saps on Sambrobriva. Both fell within four turns.
I should mention that I allied with Allemani early to keep my southern border at Vikus Gothi (My starting city) protected. Since Barbarian Alliances hold, it was a necessary strategic decision.
Sambrobriva fell on retaliation, but I wiped out most of the invading army, and was able to retake it a turn later with a relief force I sent up just in case. On the way I recruited a unit Graal Knights for a whopping d2k. I now hold 4 settlements.. I'll probably consolidate up north into Saxon territory and Britain, before I strike south again against the WRE.
The Franks have an excellent upgrades, and their starting city produces exp 3 units. Very, very handy.
PS. Those Comits... Damn them!
Craterus
10-03-2005, 22:33
Hmmm, strange that no-one went for the Alemanni, or is it that everyone else feels they aren't worth bothering with?
My reason for not going after WRE is because I want to see it crumble without the help of a human.
I'm playing without pause (wherever possible) and no "toggle_fow" except maybe to see how the Sassanids are doing etc.
Garvanko
10-04-2005, 12:50
Romans in my campaign are really taking a beating. ERE has lost Constaninople to rebels. Heaven knows what the Sassanids are doing to them! WRE is struggling against the Brits, Berbers, Saxons, and my Franks.
Saxons just upped the ante a bit on my northern frontier..
The_Doctor
10-04-2005, 12:50
I started the game by building a christian temple to upset the population.
Then on the next turned my people into a horde.
On the second turn the Lombards took tribus franki, only to discover a rather angry population, they lost the city and a large stack of rebels appeared to protect it. This was a part of my plan.
I then destroyed the Alemanni and Saxons, and sacked all the cities in Gual. I then took Burdigala, Arles, and Massila(sp), all fleshly sacked.
The Roxolani took Avaricum and Samarobriva.
I was attacked by the Huns, but because of the stupid AI I killed ~4000 of them in seige. Fried Huns.
The Burgundii took Tribus Franki, and the city revolted, again. But this time the rebels joined me. So I rebuilt the pagan temple to stop the happiness.
I have now built a large army and am invading the Burgundii, who rule the Frisii, Saxons and Chatti.
darsalon
10-04-2005, 17:28
Hmmm, strange that no-one went for the Alemanni, or is it that everyone else feels they aren't worth bothering with?
Haven't gone after the Alemanni myself to my huge regret. Tactic I have used is to hold on to Vicus Franki (sp?) and go after the WRE myself. I think the Romans were distracted by something else going on as I was able to walk into the majority of the cities almost uninvited after defeating 2 minor field armies in Gaul. Saxons have proved to be treacherous swine after breaking an alliance but, considering their target aims that didn't surprise me.
As for dealing with hordes well, I haven't had to really until late game as they simply passed through for pillaging the romans. In a couple of cases they've sacked settlements and I've mopped up after them. For me it's dealing with the hordes of Alemanni that are set on my blood. I have them bottled up in the Italian peninsular at the moment but given the riches there it's going to take a while to get them down to a level to make any progress
Franks, as expected, have decent infantry units that are able to hold the line against most other nations except the saxons possibly where I had a couple of close battles and, shock horror, a defeat against them before just overwhelming them with a comparitive tidal wave of people. Even your basic levy spearmen are reasonable with a little bit of backup. Oh yes and get the noble warriors as well as they're pretty good against most of the other barbarian style cavalry you'll meet. Just don't rely on them as your primary attack.
The_Doctor
10-04-2005, 20:34
Welcome darsalon ~:wave:
I discovered that the Franks have to convert to Christianity in order to get paladins. They are availabe at the monerstary and get an experience upgrade at the abbey.
Garvanko
10-04-2005, 21:19
forget it.
Garvanko
10-04-2005, 21:22
ditto.
Garvanko
10-04-2005, 21:34
forget it.
Garvanko
10-04-2005, 21:49
again, forget it.
Garvanko
10-05-2005, 00:17
Wow! My franks campaign has turned into a real dogfight. The Saxons have been throwing stack after stack at me with no end in sight, and all their armies have units full of 6xp infantry and sea raiders. Battles have been fun, but the balance has been tipped by my newly acquired noble cavalry and heerben infantry.
The Lombardi have broken alliance and attacked Vikus Franki. Full stack. My garrison is full of 3xp peasants, so I hope it can hold in case they attack next turn before my big army can arrive to support.
toggle_fow has revealed a roman empire crumbling in the face of huge vandal and hunnic hordes. The ERE has been kicked off Greece, and are heavily involved in a murder-death-kill scrap with the Sassanids. The WRE can't seem to stop the tide of Berbers, Vandals and just about everyone else. Indeed, all the barbarian factions seem to be doing well and expanding, which should make the later game very interesting. The Vandals look like they'll be passing my way in about ten years. Unfortunately, Im piss-poor, and in no proper shape to take them on alongside the Saxons, WRE and the Lombardi.
Bring it on.
Franconicus
10-05-2005, 08:26
Started my campaign last night and here are my first impressions.
You have the Romans on the other side of the Rhine and you have all the other Barb factions on the other side. As far as I see there are three possible strategies:
1. Attack and unify all Germanian tribes. This is the nationalistic approach. However, Germanians were not nationalistic then. And you may have to deal with many wandering tribes including Huns. This may cause a lot of fighting but small gain.
2. Attack the Romans. Their cities are big and rich. And your final targets are in Gaul.
3. Pack your bags, move the complete tribe and invade Gaul.
I chose number 2. (Maybe 3 is more fun. I'll try next time.) I attacked the Roman town right in the west of my home (I guess it is what we call Trier today.) I started the attack as soon as most of the garrison had left the town. They came back and I took the town. Great city with stone walls. Then the Romans came to me and begged and payed for peace. All right! So I turned and attacked the Allemani. I also strengthened the walls of my home town. Now I am ready to start a new attack against the Romans.
What is new?
The towns are bigger than in the old Rome game. This gives you a better start. However, there are so many barbarian competitors that it will be challanging.
Is AI smarter? Maybe! When I attacked the Roman town ther was only the FM inside the town. Several spear units and one archer unit were outside. The gates were open and I started to dig a tunnel to get another entry. The troops outside the town marched to the town but turned before they entered to face my right flank. I had to stop the digging to build a defensive line. I send one levy unit through the gate. They managed to reach the centre, although they lost 100 men in arrow fire. I placed the at the corner of the place and expected the FM to attack. But he withdraw, the place was mine. When I thought that they all run their infantry from outside came in and entered the city centre. I send all the rest of my army to attack them. To my surprise two spear units left the place and tried to hide in the narrow streets. When I attacked the place they tried to flank me. Never saw such thing before. Nevertheless I took the town. There were no Roman survivors.~:cool:
Franconicus
10-05-2005, 08:28
double post!
Franconicus
10-05-2005, 10:22
double post!
Franconicus
10-05-2005, 15:05
:book:
Alexanderofmacedon
10-05-2005, 23:15
I'm not even completely finished with my un-expansionized version (I know it's not a word)! I really need to get going, and I need to save money for new computer parts anyways.
I need new computer parts and BI, but not enough money!:embarassed: :furious3:
I was impressed with being able to use the Paladins and Paladin Bodyguard with the Franks, gave me a taste of the Medieval times during a Dark Age setting ~;) .
Franconicus
10-06-2005, 07:56
:book:
Hey All,
Read these posts with great interest. Got BI just a few days ago and, for some reason, chose the Franks as my first path to glory. It's going well.
Currently it's about 395, I hold 15 provinces stretching from Vicus Franki outwards to the west and south, and I just took the first of the three "homelands" that I need for ultimate victory. Bulgirida and Arle (hmmm, don't have those names right, but perhaps you know what I'm talking about: the central and southern home-cities for the Franks) are next up to go down, though they are guarded by large-sized Roman armies and I'm stretched a bit thin.
Anyway, I started off by going slowly and carefully: made an alliance with the Allemani on the first turn, then over the next few turns poked around to the east and took the two rebel towns (Vicus Marcomanni and... the one just south). At that point, apart from sending out diplomats and getting everybody and his brother to give up trade rights (and I got a few alliances along the way too: with the Lombards and Huns), I just looked around... plotting... planning... I watched the Allemani and Western Romans go at it...then eventually struck Vicus Treverorum and Colonia Agrippa while the Romans were distracted... I also took Conuntrum to the south... Note that nothing much was happening north and east of me: the Burgundii and Lombardii were duking it out, the Saxons were beating up on rebels, the Huns and Vandals and Sarmatians kept finding and losing homelands (I was never threatened by any of them, though thought I would be -- I turned off fow on occasion to check on their progress and look around elsewhere: it's an amazing sight to see those multi-stacks wandering around!).
I next moved west to Samarobriva and north to Frisia (the coastal city in Belgica) and then eventually into modern Denmark, because the Saxons had decided they could take me on...but couldn't. ~;) I also moved into the Italian peninsula after securing alliances with the Vandals and Sarmatians (who had both found homelands by that point). For better for worse, I turned next on my allies, the poor Allemani, whom I basically surrounded at this point, thus they needed to go. (Couldn't have them stabbing me in the back, now could I?) To my credit, I sent a diplomat the turn before I attacked them, cancelling our alliance. The next turn their only two cities were mine.
Since then, it's been a gradual move west and south: I've taken Ravenna and am laying siege to Roma. My homelands are within my grasp, as I mentioned. A great first campaign, which has gone easily, I'd say.
In sum, here's my advice: lay low, be opportunistic, move south and west -- the riches are there.
Cheers, Dub
Some other information that would be helpful, I s'pose:
I'm playing on M/M difficulty. I've mainly utilized Levy Spearmen and Raiders throughout my campaign, with a healthy dose of Hunters, though am starting to replace the former with a mix of Axe and Sword Heerban. Noble Warriors (advanced horsemen) are too expensive for me to make much use of yet. I've done a lot of assassinating to good effect, cutting down most of the diplomats and all of the assassins that wander into my countries. Spies have opened many of the city gates for my attacking armies. I typically exterminate the populace of captured towns. It's bloody, I know, but it's lucrative, and I'm a barbarian, after all. ~;)
Craterus
10-07-2005, 23:40
Hmmm, in the turns before I needed to battle I went for the rebel provinces to the north, but was beaten by the Saxons and the Lombards.
So, at this point, I went towards Colonia Agrippa (?) but that was guarded by a full stack (including Comitatenses) and so I went for the one south and laid siege. Then a stack and another half stack appeared from nowhere. They attacked so I withdrew, only for them to chase me. So it was a stack, a half stack and the garrison vs. my half stack.
At this point, I got the CTD, but I assume I would have won/marginally lost that battle because the odds were apparently even (the half stack and garrison are poor troops).
But anyway, I been enjoying this campaign so far, I just hope I can sort the problem out.
Garvanko
10-07-2005, 23:46
For some reason Vicus Franki is an magnet for Spies, Diplomats and Assassins.
Craterus
10-08-2005, 00:07
That could be why the public order is so low. And I am really low on cash and I need to take a town. But I can't 'cos of the all-knowing Romans.
Oh yeah, and my second son is a Christian?! Should I build a church in Vicus Franki? My two starting characters are to the west.
Garvanko
10-08-2005, 01:50
Horde and move west. Otherwise you'll be seiged turn after turn by Romans, Lombardi, Saxons, etc. The Franks starting position is strategically weak. Vicus Franki is a death trap.
Franconicus
10-10-2005, 09:59
I invaded Gaulat once (+ the Allemanii). I played strategy: vh and battles: m because that seemed to work best on ROME. It was too easy to beat the Western Romans. One or two field battles where I easily bate bigger armies. Their towns are usually defended by a family member only. Only thing that slowed my conquering down was the (un)happiness of the population. Do not have a perfect solution for that. After having conquered half of Gaul plus Augusta Vindelicorum I almost quit, because it was far too easy. Then the Saxons attacked my home town. I coul beat them! At once there was an Burgund army trying to do the same. My army from Augusta Vind. had just reached Mediolanum when I saw the first hord (Vandals). I took Med at once and then they hit me. Two armies with 2,000 - 3,000 men each tried to attack my new town. For haeven's sake I had stonewalls and lots of archers so I could destroy the ram and tower they had and killed thousends of them. But the game is really beginning to challenge me. ~:)
What is your experience?
Arghhhh! Made a terrible mistake. My setup is without time limit. Now Mediolanum was sieged by three Vandal armies with 8,000 men in total. Only one army had siege equipment (two towers and two rams). I still had lots of archers and managed to destroy the rams and one tpwer. However, the remaining tower could not be damaged by my fire arrows, regardless how many I fired at it. So one unit of Vandals after the other climbed up the latters and was killed by my guard or sword ban. Then the next one came. Due to the number of Vandals and the distance the units had to go this was a never ending story. After 2h I broke up (it was 12:pm and I had to go to bed). So I lost this beatiful town.
Ergo: Always play with time limit!
PseRamesses
10-11-2005, 12:41
Arghhhh! Made a terrible mistake. My setup is without time limit. Now Mediolanum was sieged by three Vandal armies with 8,000 men in total. Only one army had siege equipment (two towers and two rams). I still had lots of archers and managed to destroy the rams and one tpwer. However, the remaining tower could not be damaged by my fire arrows, regardless how many I fired at it. So one unit of Vandals after the other climbed up the latters and was killed by my guard or sword ban. Then the next one came. Due to the number of Vandals and the distance the units had to go this was a never ending story. After 2h I broke up (it was 12:pm and I had to go to bed). So I lost this beatiful town.
Ergo: Always play with time limit!
Happened to me too. I just left the game, went to sleep and in the morning the battle was over. My 4 inf units, 2 on each side of the siege tower drop off and on guard-mode had killed 3.300 men!!!~:eek:
PseRamesses
10-11-2005, 12:54
Hmmm, strange that no-one went for the Alemanni, or is it that everyone else feels they aren't worth bothering with?
That´s usually my first priority. Take the Alemanni capitol will eventually spawn one of the three "dormant" factions - hopefully the RB´s or Slavs.
I start my WRE-war by taking the city south of the Alemanni capitol and then move north to take A.T and C.A etc until all of "France" is under my rule. From my capitol I send new units in the same trail as my original army. This way I can reinforce my fort in the alps and hold off any WRE incursions.
With all of France under control you can easily stop the Saxon incursions at the three river-crossings bordering them (if you let them take the two rebel towns south of them). At this point I hold the three river crossings north, the three mouintain passes towards Italy so the only opening is the eastern front but that´s not a worry. With 6 archers in both C.Franki and C.Alemanni you can soak up any incursions fron the east. Now I usually take Iberia and get my empire up to 14 provinces. Pushing the Saxons out of the two former rebel towns in Germany plus taking Italy will get you the 20 provinces needed to win.
I´ve played the Franks both as pagan and christian but prefer the later since I cet the uber-unit: paladins.
Craterus
10-11-2005, 19:18
That´s usually my first priority. Take the Alemanni capitol will eventually spawn one of the three "dormant" factions - hopefully the RB´s or Slavs.
I don't think the RB's will appear by something happening over there. I thought it happened if/when the Saxons go to Britain ~:confused:
PseRamesses
10-12-2005, 12:28
I don't think the RB's will appear by something happening over there. I thought it happened if/when the Saxons go to Britain ~:confused:
You´re right. I meant the Ostrogoths and Slavs. Thx for pointing that out. :bow: RB only emerge as a result of any faction taking Eburacum and Londinium.
Alexanderofmacedon
10-12-2005, 14:46
I started last night, and I am planning on using the strategy to ally with most barbarian factions then move my armies north to attack the Saxons.
Thanks for the help!:balloon2:
Craterus
10-12-2005, 19:54
You´re right. I meant the Ostrogoths and Slavs. Thx for pointing that out. :bow: RB only emerge as a result of any faction taking Eburacum and Londinium.
I believe that the Ostrogoths emerge during a Goth civil war, like the ERER/WRER. Goths are the only other faction where generals have loyalty, and are therefore capable of civil wars. :bow:
So it must be the Slavs. ~;) Maybe someone could check this though?
Simple Consolidiation strategy for keeping Vicus Franki:
1: Ally with both Romes, set up trade rights. Ally with any local barbarians you can except either the Allemani or Saxons. Your primarly goal is pushing to the English Channel as soon as possible. I grabbed the adjacent rebel province then immediately turned on the Allemani, trapped their army outside the city and destroyed it, then seiged the town.
The Lombardi and Burgundii seem to want to fight amongst themselves and you can leave them till later. If you can ally with the Lombardi, you are clear to easily annihilate the Burgundii and use the Lombardi as your horde defense. The Burgundii Horde will probably go into Lombardi terrority after you finish them off.
2: Take Vicus Saxones and push east into Burgundii territory. Take the port west of Saxones if Rome doesn't get it first. You now have a huge cash influx from trade with WRE.
At this point you've probably already won the campaign. You can take your time and finished off the Lombardi and Burgundii, although you'll likely end up having to destroy at least one of the Hordes yourself. It's not hard, you have a lot of space to play with in Eastern Europe and plenty of mercenary cavalry.
3: Head into Rome or Britain, depending on who owns what. The Celts or Romano British will eventually attack you if the take Londinium, beat them to the punch and between Vicus Saxones and Londinium you will have all the trade money you'll ever need.
By the time you head into WRE's holdings in the old Gallic provinces, you'll finally have some real melee units in Fransisca Heerbaans, who are some straight up hardcore thugs (their unit response also comically comes out sounding like "X-men!"). Two lines of FH in fire-at-will mode will utterly destroy any opposing line infantry, and you can use the otherwise weak Levy Spearmen as a cavalry screen for your Fransisca wrecking ball. A proper axe toss can easily net you 40% casualties in an oncoming heavy infantry unit and god help any skirmishers.
Your only potential problem will come from armies with a concentrated heavy cavalry (in my campaign I finally encountere the Vandals in southern France and they took out two stacks worth of decent troops before I finally bled them out) but Rome likely won't have more than one of those. Your own Noble Cavalry is decent but simply can not match all the Imperial German Guard or Steppe Heavy Cavalry, which will likely be substantially more numerous if it shows up.
For the coup de grace on WRE, send one force south to Mediolatum (sp) and hold the mountain passes against Roman reinforcements while you clear out France with whatever is left. You have plenty of space to trade for time in the old Burgundii/Lombardi areas should a horde come calling, and while you may lose a lot of battles it's fairly easy to bleed the horde dry befor they get to anything important.
Barbarian Invasion - meine HORDEN tipps
It looks that I did a complete different approach to the Franks than you guys did. Maybe because I used to play the Goths before (and won)?
The starting location of the Franks is pretty nice. Romans do not attend to attack you and so do the other German tribes around. I learned by using the Goths that it is only a matter of time until the hordes come and to qualify all the small victories you may get against the provinces around you. You may grow when you make a conventional strategy, but you will come into trouble.
I decided to turn into a horde after a few preparations. You are way ahead of the conventional hordes far in the east (Huns, Vandals und soon Sarmatians). You will invade lands FREE of any horde for a long time.
AI of Romans is to defend some key provinces. I did not figure out any of them, but here there are some:
Trier (Augusta Treverorum), Pannonia, Milano, Salona.. Okay, some are not in hand of WRE, but ERE do similar.
* What do you need to become a proper horde?
It is essential that you have eyes to see when troubles come at you. I started to make 3 additional spies and send them across the river Rhine into the WRE. Because I prefer to use archers (Frankish ones suck) and cavalry, I made 2 archers and 2 cavalry units too. I did not build ANY building, because I will forsake the city soon. While the last units will start to get build, I upgraded all of my units too. Do not bother with Rebels in you flat land, but do not expand the taxes that your city will become rebellious!
After that I made a HORDE and crossed the Rhine to fight WRE. Those meanwhile conquered Frisi and made some small army stacks between Treverorum and the Alamanni. Main goal of a HORDE is to make MONEY and to prevent WRE to fix their initial troubles and become a power once again.
I attacked some of the small roman packs and forced them back (they did not accepted the battle, so why should I?). I laid Siege at Treverorum, but I want to reach inner Gaul and loot whatever is possible!
Because defence around Treverorum is reasonable my leaders pack laid siege at Colonia Agrippa and took it by force (only 3 defending units). My first loot came into my pocked.
Having an eye on Romans packs at the Rhine, I went westwards into Belgie. Most cities behind the front line are only defended by 2-3 roman units. This calls for what I call Blitzkrieg. One important point is that you have to deal with your armies carefully, because with no city you cannot replace any losses.
Blitzkrieg
In Blitzkrieg you do not want to face big enemy armies. You will only fight them when they urge you to do so. If you have a chance you avoid them and destroy enemy cities (and money).
Make a fast vanguard out of 1 family member and 5-6 cavalry units. All infantry of yours is in other armies. Then advance like a caterpillar. The slow armies take care for enemy forces and lay sieges until the end. It is a good idea to safe a bridge from time to time when enemies are near with such infantry armies too. The top of your trek is always the cavalry army.
It works like this:
1st Your spy checks the next city. When defension is small, the city will becomes target.
2nd Using a second spy to check the next city if you think you will need your first spy to take the actual city by storm.
3rd Run to the city with your cavalry army and lay siege at it. This way they cannot build more units in there, what will happens if you need many ticks to arrive with a normal army. You can build some siege improvements, no matter that you have only cavalry. Meanwhile send a normal army that is able to take the city over.
4th When the new army arrives, replace your cavalry army with it. Best way is to add one unit of the new army into your besieging cavalry. In the same tick you move your cavalry army to the next target like told in under 3rd. Move the rest of the infantry army into the old position of your cavalry army. The siege time you used with your cavalry army and the entire siege improvements you had build are safe this way.
5th Continue with the next city. :charge:
6th Bring the besieged city down. Either by awaiting the result of your siege or by attacking with forces. Remember: As long as you own no city, you cannot replace any LOSSES. Fight when required, but pass by when possible :duel:
I did not bother in making a new home for my people before me getting enough money and bring down any potential enemy around. This way I pillaged ALL Gaul, Spain and Italy. The WRE had only 1 province left (Frisii) at the European continent. In the year 396 my fat purse had more than 200000 Denari while all the areas I pillaged where in the hand of rebels. Finally I made a new home in Italy (like I did with my Goths in the game before).
This had 2 reasons: I handled Italy with care. I was in front of all other Hordes and with my big armies there at any way into Italy they turned north and left me alone. I managed my sieges, so I took all 3 cities at the same tick and my Horde armies disappeared with this. My new home was:
Ravenna
(Temple with 3 veteran points, fully improved city, full barracks and stables)
Rome
(Complete improved city goodies, maximum smithy, maximum barracks, maximum far distance units = Onagers. No longer endless sieges) ~:cheers:
Milano
(Temple with 3 veteran points, lots of good improvements, no matter that I plundered it some years before)
This gave me a great position for the upcoming normal build up and conquer phase. I was able to build the best units while having enough money to pay for all needs over a long time. I made some forts at the entrance gates into Italy. This kept enemy Hordes away until I was ready to fight them. Southern Italy in Rebels hands was an easy match. My expansion was into Gaul mainly. If you focus for the south and Spain, you will not meet many enemies first. Only the Vandals I had to kill there.
Using this strategy gave me first a lot of money and keeps WRE most out of my way. Then I found a new, really good improved home (thanks to WRE) for the best units. Due to my pillaging before I had no big enemies close to me over a reasonable period what I used to become a big and proper power.
Check it out, it works! ~:cheers:
Sorry when my English is not that great.
Im shocked at how handy it is playing the Franks. Its easier than the Huns position! I just played a fast Frank campaign there, VH/M but autoresolving all the battles just to see how it played out.
I horded straight away and across the bridge smack into Augusta Trevorum. One turn later sacked and split up, two stacks going left to Sambrovia, two taking a detour north to Colonia Aggrippa (?). By turn 3 Colonia was sacked too, and Sambrovia was under threat. I now began a very lucrative operation - blackmailing the WRE for peace. I made 10K for a ceasefire. Next turn I broke the deal, seiged Sambrovia and sacked it. Then we headed south en masse to Avaricarum. Blackmailed the WRE for another 10K. Broke the deal next turn and seiged Avaricarum. Sacked it. Blackmailed the WRE for another 10K (Theyve given me 30K now in 3-4 turns and show no signs of running out of cash). 3 stacks are heading for Burgilda whilst one stack stays to seige Avaricarum.Once Ive sacked Arles and Burgilda Ill take Avaricarum and make it my capital, though who knows, things are going so swimmingly I might as well keep going.
Ive currently got something like 92K in the kitty, and expect to ratchet that up to at least 120K by the time Im ready to settle and more than a few rebel cities between me and my erstwhile barbarian cousins that I can expand into later or use as a buffer zone. Iberia and Italy will soon lie open to me, and and Roman armies from either can be bottled up in the respective mountain passes.
I guess my advice with the Franks would be dont waste time, horde and sack the WRE from turn 1!
Apart of the "case fire" operation you made the same apporeach like I did. I agree, it is very easy.
I get the idea that any fraction in the game has a kind of basic relations to any other fraction. No matter how they act during the game. For example:
WRE 'loves' the Franks, but will always try to bring down the Alamanni...
ERE hates the Goths. While playing the Goths they attacked me with no reason. When hording and only try to cross their lands they threated me and attacked. While starting a few ticks with the Vandals they allowed me to cross all ERE in europe without any word - until I attacked all their cities there at once!
Franconicus
10-17-2005, 07:58
teja, congrat to your strategy! And welcome to the org ~:cheers:
I had a more conventional approach. I attacked the town on the other side of the Rhine (Treverorum) with all available troops and it was not a big thing to get it. The the WRE wanted to make peace and gave me Augusta Vindelicorum for free ~D. The very next turn the WRE changed their minds and broke peace. It is easy to walk through Gaul as teja described it. There are only some field armies and the garrisons are small. You can easily conquer them. I used to kill the pop to get money and keep them happy ~;) .
I took the Alemanni very early to have a connection to Augusta Vind.. Then thegate to Italy is open. I formed a second invasion army and marched to Rome. Not a big deal to get the capitol of the world.
My diplomats were looking for other Germanian tribes and allied as much as possible. This is very important! When I invaded Italy Vandal and Goth hordes crossed my path. But they stayed peaceful!
I got some problems with happiness. I tried to convert all new towns to Christ but it simply did not work. It slowed my invasion in Gaul. So finally I destoyed all churches and the people were happy! I only let my southern town stay Christian (Augusta Vind and all Italian ones.)
Thanks for the welcome Franconicus
Playing the religious card in this game can be very tricky.
Early in the game you are very happy with pagan temples because of their influence while building forces (veteran point’s e.t.c.). Later in the game, when you have more and more populations in your cities an already established Christian religion offers more chances to keep the population happy.
I use having a mix of both over some time. When you start with a Christian fraction it is handy to pack as much of your family members as possible into one army stack. Use it and conquer a city you want to get and to turn into Christianity.
A longer siege will help you. Any Christian character has at lest a bonus of + 5 % converting into Christianity. As long as you are besieging a city, this affects the population around. It may cause unrest in the city against the current owner when he is pagan, but this is not the main use. When finally the city falls in your hand, a lot of people have already turned into Christianity. You can boost it, when your assassin destroys the temple just before the siege.
After the city is yours, destroy the temple and build a church, when Christianity is already big enough. When you have a chance, let your characters stay in this province for using their bonus to speed it up. You will see when time is right, when your Christian population starts to be safety problem. It is not required that your characters stick IN the city, but in the same province to make a use of their religious influence.
I use to turn most cities into Christianity early on. But some great developed cities for best military units will stay pagan for best effective forces.
Ravenna is one of those cities
It works best for Goths and offers a lot of benefits for western fractions like Saxons, Alemanni and (conventional) Franks. As long as you are unable to build big armies, you will use your family members as a big force either way.
Franconicus
10-18-2005, 13:19
teja,
how do you do it with a pagan nation, like the Franks? All my family members are pagan; so if they control a city they are a hurdle for the conversion.
When I conquered a new (pagan) town I killed the population, destroit all temples and started to built churches ... . However there was almost no conversion and there was a lot of troubles with rebellions. My family members never became Christian. After a while I gave up and destroit all churches.
It is more difficult, but it works. Easiest way is when in Horde mode. You only destroy the city and kill population, it turns into a Rebel city - attack and start to kill population again. The lower the population, the smaller the risk of a unrest you can not handle.
About family members you are right: All STARTING members are Pagan. But me, playing the Franks get at least 1 Christian family member later on. No matter that I never did something in favor of Christianity before.
I have no general plan how to turn provinces into other religious believings. I like Hordes, which makes you independence for a reasonable time. I like some Pagan temples, so why shall I change it in general? But I learned to do any of those changes carefully!
Once I had a city I could not hold for some ticks. I destroyed the temple, made a church and then aband it. A Rebellion rose up, what made a better defension but my former garrison formed of 1 cavalry unit. The Sarmatians took the city over and had to deal with all the unrest. Because it had not been a key city I came back much later and conquered a calm, almost christian city.
Maybe you should ask this question in a "roman fraction" thread. I never used them in BI, but romans have those problems from the beginning.
Haudegen
10-18-2005, 22:45
Hi
it is much easier to convert to christianity when not so many pagan provinces are adjacent to yours. Therefore it´s probably best to start this in a small peaceful coast province --> Campus Frisii or Vicus Saxones are quite good for this purpose, islands are even better.
And of course it enhances conversion very much if you convert other neighbouring provinces at the same time. Therefore it isn´t always a successful way if you take a town, burn down the temple, build a church and abandon it to leave it for the rebels. Because the small chruch can not compensate the pagan effects of more than one pagan neighbour province.
Franconicus
10-19-2005, 06:49
Thank you teja and Bastard.
By the way, wwelcome to you too!~:cheers:
Dead Knight of the Living
10-19-2005, 18:05
My question here is for those of you who have played RTR 6.0. I don't have Barbarian Invasion yet. I just want to know if Barbarian Invasion is better than RTR 6.0? Sounds like a pretty exciting MOD, but being a tightwad as I am I'd rather not spend the money if 6.0 is better or as good.
@ Bastard Operator: Welcome here!
I agree to your statement about easier conversation. My story about making a Christian rebel town was a result of a bad intelligence about the Sarmatians that lead into the loss of it no matter if I made the church or not. My army was not handy and I expanded a bit faster but my forces had been able to defend. Whatever I saw it as a good chance to turn the city into Christianity without me having to solve the troubles there ;)
What you say about adjecting provinces is important and shows again the favors of Italy, Spain, Britain and similar locations for changing the religious believings, For other reasons they are fine for trading routes and small frontiers of your empire. All of this are reasons to become the new home of any Horde. For myself military and monetary reasons are more important but religious ones.
@Dead Knight of the Living
Strange that the forum rules force us to talk about such a common point in a Guide thread. Other locations should be better in my eyes.
However I do not own RTW 6.0, but learned about it's changes. As far as I know RTW 6,0 is not working with BI.
So far as I can see RTW 6,0 is a great mod that is working stable and fixed some balance problems in the original game. Some of it's changes are not after my fancy. For example Pontic phalanges should stay with smaller mens but regular ones. In history phalanx formations in eastern areas had always been recruited by people of Macedonian or Hellenic origin and those had been rare in Pontic lands....
Anybody has different ideas about how to please him well.
I for myself see the biggest changes between RTW x.x and BI in 3 points:
a) The historical context
b) The new Horde function. Sometimes it may outbalance the gameplay when you only focus on this, but using with care and fun it is great. Decide for yourself if it is of your liking.
c) The religious card. You can read about problems and changes in religion above. Do you like it? It is a difficult feature. There is no longer a technology breakthrough as Marius reforms are. In a very small base religion can be similar (Do I want to use berseks or priests?). But you better compare it in RTW with the differences between the roman fractions (Julii or Brutii or Scipions) with their special units.
This are the facts. It is on yours to decide. Ah, I forgot to say that BI is a bit expensive for an add on but it features pleases me well.
Maybe this poll will help you to decide?
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33894
I hate it to be unable to delete or edit my own posts! Can somebody do this with my post just above this?
A poll about ratings for BI:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33894
A thread about religion & converting family members into a new fait:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35682
I forgot a new point in what's new in BI compared to RTW. Night battles!
Those look very cool, but are limited to really good commanders while others have not a change to use it.
In fact I am not convinced about it's use. You need to pause a lot to keep track about what is going on at the battlefield. It is not much of a help for armies with big large range weapon contingents. It favors melee units and to undermine city defence towers. Good for western fractions with great infantry, bad for nomad fractions. It helps to kill a single army pack of a Horde fraction, because adjoining armies not lead by those really good commanders will not engage into a night battle as they do at daytime.
I just want to know if Barbarian Invasion is better than RTR 6.0?
I found it overall more entertaining than the RTR mod, though it certainly
could use some realism tuning of its own.
Trithemius
10-26-2005, 00:51
Hi
it is much easier to convert to christianity when not so many pagan provinces are adjacent to yours. Therefore it´s probably best to start this in a small peaceful coast province --> Campus Frisii or Vicus Saxones are quite good for this purpose, islands are even better.
And of course it enhances conversion very much if you convert other neighbouring provinces at the same time. Therefore it isn´t always a successful way if you take a town, burn down the temple, build a church and abandon it to leave it for the rebels. Because the small chruch can not compensate the pagan effects of more than one pagan neighbour province.
I started exterminating everyone (partly to keep their revolts lower in intensity and partly for the cash to fund my church-building spree) and coverting them fairly quickly. I found it was critical to convert only after you have built up some numerous but cheap garrison forces (I used peasants just for the numbers and the cheap maintenance in addition to some real troops) and only after your offensive field-force is out of the province. All those nutcase pagan sons with their handy paladin cavalry are very useful in battle, but they just slow down the conversion rate.
Once you've wiped out and converted some of the neighbouring provinces you'll get the neighbouring province conversion bonus (it's a problem while their pagan, but its a real boon while their Christian). My biggest problem is hordes, even peaceful ones, with their pagan family members, or local pagan tribes having a "diplomatic summit" around one of my newly converted settlements.
I am currently playing a Frank campaign and am about to try an experiment with conversion. I have conquered all of Gaul and have several strong armies able to hold all of my borders. However, before I move on Spain and Britain I want to convert to Christianity. This poses a challenge since all of my cities are 100% pagan. I recently adopted a Christian family member through marriage. He is the only Christian in my family. I made him heir and my current Faction Leader is old. If he does not die on his own soon I may kill him off with a suicide charge. The same turn that my Christian family member becomes King, I will destroy all pagan buildings in ALL of my cities and replace them with churches. There will of course be incredible unrest due to this. However, it is my hope that the cumulative effect of so many provinces flipping at once will provide massive conversion bonuses via the adjacent provinces. I am hoping that if I can keep the cities from rebelling for two to three turns that I will soon have a stable and mostly converted empire.
Haudegen
10-28-2005, 21:27
TinCow,
thats exactly the way I did it. I want to add that you haven´t only to get rid of your king. At the time I started the great conversion I had also seven or eight other pagan family members which are exremely disturbing when parked in your homelands. It´s best to send them westward to keep the WRE busy. Hopefully they can deflect Roman invasions since you will have very little money during those turns. This is because you´ll have to lower the taxes while maintaining large garrisons for public order.
@TinCow:
Please report about your experiences when you are able to.
However I would never want to convert my whole empire to one religion. I still want to get the benefits of all of them: Priests & Experience points
McDoogle
10-30-2005, 01:07
there is on one of those split screen things while loading etc, a group of men in HORNED HELMETS with axes and shields destroying a villiage.
I have search through the custom battle thing and havnt been able to find these units. Does anyone have any ideas as to who they are and who they belong to?
Alright, I converted my faction. After a second turn of revolt, two of my provinces rebelled and one reverted to the WRE. A turn later a third went rebel. Of these four provinces, two (including the WRE) were immediately recaptured by their expelled garrison. The other two were recaptured by other armies within a couple turns. The massive debt hole that I plunged into due to low taxes everywhere and church building expenses meant that I was forced to exterminate the cities that rebelled. However I am now a good 7-8 turns into the conversion and I'm back to normal. One province is still 100% pagan due to a 'faction member only' horde that I cannot seem to dispose of nor force out of the area. However, even this province remains happy despite its official christian religion.
All in all, not too bad and the mass revolt was kind of fun. Makes sense that a significant segment of the population wouldn't agree with the conversion.
As a side note, in order to keep my provinces converting quickly, I moved all pagan family members just over the border into foreign territory. The worst ones I even got killed intentionally and a few others were dispatched by rebels and enemies. Due to the low number of family members, I then got one Man of the Hour and two adoptions very quickly. Interestingly, all three were Christian and this has solved a great deal of my pagan family member problem.
gardibolt
10-31-2005, 18:00
Having just finished my Gallic RTW campaign, I thought I'd try their inheritors, the Franks on M/M in BI. My tack was that since they have a lot of buildings that give bonuses, I'd try to keep the peace for a while and put myself in a position where I could build some uber-buffed units. Started off with Hall of Heroes and archery range in Vicus Franki, and swooped down on the three neighboring rebel provinces before the AI could seize them. Allied with the Saxons and the WRE to give me some time to grow, and sent diplomats everywhere selling trade rights and adding to my stack of alliances. Got a transgression notice from the ERE when I made them pay me tribute for 10 turns at 1800d, but hey, it's business. Since the Alemanni had only one province, I decided to send my new army down to take them on, but their main stack turned out to have been hiding in the woods and young Rodolf was forced to beat a hasty retreat. I've been building and using assassins nonstop, though one kept missing to the point where he lost all of his skills. Urgh.
The Saxons turned on me first, attacking my northernmost province of Chatty Cathy, but they got nowhere. The WRE, seeing an opportunity, also backstabbed me, but rather ineffectually. That was fine with me, since I was running short of cash, and poorly-defended Augusta Tricovrum looked pretty tasty across the river. As I was about ready to take my siege engines in, I was attacked by the full stack of Romans. I went ahead with the siege attack, taking the gateway and allowing my cavalry and a couple pieces of infantry in; the rest were just abandoned to slow down the main WRE forces. The cav charged the main square, and I ended up winning on a TKO despite still being outnumbered 4:1 when the 3:00 timer ran out with the main force having had to run around to another side, stuck about a block from the main square. Heh.
But that left the stack outside, and after a turn or two of retraining and rebuilding (after a fine and profitable extermination to get my cash built up again), I set some hunters on the walls. The WRE stack started to run away! We couldn't have that, so all my cav went out to knock off a straggler or two. That worked, and the main force stopped, and using luring and crashing I ended up routing the entire stack with 4 cavalry, including the general. I also brought some mercs out to warcry, which helped with the routing. Fun! Took the city just to the north too, giving me at long last a seaport (well, after I built one....silly Romans). Even sillier, after I took those two cities, the WRE diplomat demanded that I become their protectorate. I told them to become mine instead, which broke off the diplomacy with an insult. :D
The Saxons continued to attack Chatty Cathy so I sent a force from several cities to wipe out their stacks and their holding in the Low Countries, leaving them just Frisia. I sent a force outnumbering them 2:1 and figured that was in the bag. I don't know if I was tired and getting sloppy or what, but the Saxon king, by himself, annihilated my entire 700 man army, including killing poor Tancred. Meanwhile, the Burgundians have used my alliance with the Lombards as an excuse to attack Chatty Cathy, and my loss in Frisia means I have no way to relive them.
And the Goth hordes, after settling in 2 spots in the ERE, have decided to go on a stroll and have razed my main economic city to the south (actually, once I knew the jig was up I razed much of it myself to get some cash). No idea where they'll go next, though most of the rest of my cities have stone walls so I'm hoping they decide Italy would be a nice place to visit.
The WRE cities for the victory conditions all look to be easily taken, since they're utterly underdefended, but I don't know how long the eastern half of my little empire can hold on. It's 390 AD and I'm about to drop from 7 to 5 territories. A lot depends on which way the Goths head.
And Hunters are a poor followup to Forester Warbands, let me tell you. Does anyone else find that they're really not interested in firing arrows, but instead keep charging targets that they should be firing arrows at? Bug or feature? I think "bug" considering they're set on skirmish and just run away after they charge, never actually accomplishing anything.
And Hunters are a poor followup to Forester Warbands, let me tell you. Does anyone else find that they're really not interested in firing arrows, but instead keep charging targets that they should be firing arrows at? Bug or feature? I think "bug" considering they're set on skirmish and just run away after they charge, never actually accomplishing anything.
Hunters have anemic arrow range and aren't really useful as normal archers, since they can barely fire before infantry enters charge range. I stopped recruiting them entirely and depended on mercenary horse archers for that role. Francisca Heerbans are better defensive skirmishers too. Actually, you could probably get by with an army of nothing but Francisca Heerbans.
Nobody likes an axe to the face.
Hunters have anemic arrow range and aren't really useful as normal archers, since they can barely fire before infantry enters charge range. I stopped recruiting them entirely and depended on mercenary horse archers for that role. Francisca Heerbans are better defensive skirmishers too. Actually, you could probably get by with an army of nothing but Francisca Heerbans.
Nobody likes an axe to the face.
Francisca Heerban will tear through almost any infantry enemy, especially if they get time to throw their axes first. However I've had an army of only very strong (bronze weapon and armor and 1 to 2 silver chevrons each) Franciscas get torn to shreds by horde horse archers. With no light cavalry to chase them and no archers to retaliate at range, they simply whittled the ends of my line down very, very badly. For whatever reason, Francisca Heerban do not seem to handle arrows as well as other shield units. When facing hordes with horse archers, 3-4 groups of Hunters just behind your Heerban line will deplete the enemy fast enough to protect your infantry.
saxon_maik
11-02-2005, 16:55
I want to go christian with the Franks and it's now past 400 AD and still no christian sons in my family. I paid close attention to my family and I did NOT miss the prodigal son. So when do people usually get him?
I tried accelerating this by taking some of my generals on suicidal missions to take out rebels, but this totally backfired. One of my generals survived repeated frontal charges into levy spears, saxon keels and foederati infantry in several battles - he went from no stars to three command stars in just a few turns. He's also deranged now.~;)
Related to this: Is the christian always a direct family member or can he be a recruited general or MOTH?
Haudegen
11-02-2005, 17:21
Look for the "Impious Franks" - Thread in the Colosseum. As player1 points out there, the religion of new family members is a matter of chances. As long as your leader is pagan, each new family members has to pass two tests, each with a chance of 30 %. This adds up to an overall chance of roughly 10 % for christianity. Not too much, hmm? ~:) So it seems you have only had bad luck during your game.
To your second question: A christian heir/leader necesserarily has to be a full member of your royal family. The recruited generals do not fulfill this requirement. However even these generals may get the chance to join your family if you succeed to trigger a Man-of-the-Hour-Event with them after an extraordinary great victory. So it would make sense in your situation to build those generals, hoping that there may a christian among them and throw him into glorious battles until he´s finally made it into the family. ~;)
Check the second post of this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56387
[edit] Sorry for posting the same info, we were typing at the same time.
saxon_maik
11-02-2005, 18:10
Thanks for the info. This was a Franks related question, so it didn't even occur to me to check out the Colosseum. Oh well.
So it seems that my main problem is simply family size: few children and hence not enough chances to get the christian one. I'll give recruiting generals a try.
In my experience the size of your family is directly related to the size of your empire. The more you expand, the more your family expands, either through births or adoptions. You will notice a distinct lack of births when you have stabilized your territory for a long period of time. If you then take several provinces quickly, you will receive a large number of births.
Adoptions and Man of the Hour seem to only happen when you are far below the number of family members that the game thinks you should have with your empire. As such, if you really want to try and manufacture a Christian child, you should continually kill off pagan family members to keep your birth rate up.
saxon_maik
11-02-2005, 20:56
In my experience the size of your family is directly related to the size of your empire. The more you expand, the more your family expands, either through births or adoptions. You will notice a distinct lack of births when you have stabilized your territory for a long period of time. If you then take several provinces quickly, you will receive a large number of births.
Adoptions and Man of the Hour seem to only happen when you are far below the number of family members that the game thinks you should have with your empire. As such, if you really want to try and manufacture a Christian child, you should continually kill off pagan family members to keep your birth rate up.
Interesting. So lack of expansion also contributes to my problem. For the last 10 turns or so I put all available income into building upgardes to get the best infantry and cavalry available. The Saxons and Alemanni are gone, I own everything from the northern Alps to the North Sea (essentially present-day Germany), plus the former WRE towns immediately west of the limes/Rhine river. Those lands produce some serious revenue.
The plan was to hold off on further expansion until I can raise two new and mean armies. Seems like I shot my own foot by doing that~:mecry:. This is all on MM to get a feel for the Franks. I might just save this one for later and start over, this time expanding very aggressively.
Like I said before, killing family members in combat turned out to be rather difficult. My assassins could use some practice targets~D .
gardibolt
11-04-2005, 16:53
Man, the Goths were making mincemeat out of me with their hordes; they pillaged two of my seven cities and then marched on Vicus Franki. So I pulled all my archers into the city before they got there, then had my king do a night battle. I annihilated one of the hordes by just raining down arrows on them and knocked a second down to about 1/3 size, then for good measure assassinated the family member at the head of that stack. The Goths have as a result finally decided that really, the WRE seems more entertaining so they've headed off into Gaul--hopefully leaving a trail of rebellious cities that I can claim in their wake.
The Saxons suddenly died out---I guess their invincible king died of old age or something, and so Frisia is mine for the taking....I think. Anyway, starting to get things back on a reasonable footing again after a couple turns of 100d of income.
Watchman
11-09-2005, 21:28
If you intend to stay rooted in your starting province in the early stages of the game, it's heartily encouraged you plug the bridge over the Rhine right next to you ASAP with a fort and some disposable peasants. If the WRE decide to get opportunistic and break any alliance you might have with them at an inconvenient moment (say, when most of your troops are up north taking out the Saxons and won't be arriving to help in less than three turns), it's nice if they have to stop for a turn at the bridge instead of suddenly laying siege to your capital. I neglected to do this, which resulted in a strange battle of my faction leader and his forty-odd bodyguards, two Hunter units and two units of spearmen sallying out against something like a total of dozen Limitanensis, three Foederati Infantry, two Archers and one Foederati Cavalry.
Given the glaring tactical ineptitude of the AI (which seems to have serious indecisiveness issues about assaulting any semi-decent battleline nevermind the numbers it has), I pretty much annihilated the lot of them for the loss about five Warlord Bodyguards and ten spearmen.
~:handball:
But man, those bodyguards are tough. :knight:
saxon_maik
11-10-2005, 18:14
I agree with Watchman. It is absolutely necessary to plug that Rhine bridge to protect your capital, especially if you move your field army north to take Campus Chattii. Alliance or not, the WRE will attack early.
In order to counter the WRE attack it is crucial to have sword and/or axe heerbanns, so I first upgraded the barracks and then built the stone wall. In my latest H/H campaign I took Campus Chattii first and then Frisii. After that the WRE broke our alliance and attacked my capital and besieged Campus Frisii at the same time. I made the mistake of not plugging that Rhine bridge, but managed to break the siege of my capital.
After retraining my troops I attacked the WRE city immediately west of the Rine bridge. The WRE sallied: I lost that battle, but the WRE also lost a lot of troops and called back the Campus Frisii siege army, thus ending the siege there. At that point the Alemanni attacked my capital and two turns later the plague broke out in my starting city.
The next 10 turns or so were hell, including negative finances for a few turns. I eventually managed to take one WRE town, beat back the second Alemanni attack and not spread the plague to my other cities.
This was one of the hardest campaign beginnings I've had in a while, yet it was also very entertaining.
Next I will punish the Alemanni for their aggression, then take out the Saxons and grab Londinium form the WRE. That should set me up for enough income to seriously upgade my cities an military. In my previous campaign I expanded into France, but this time I'm looking east. I know, that's asking for trouble...
Mouzafphaerre
11-11-2005, 00:59
.
...and trouble is named "Goths". ~;)
.
saxon_maik
11-11-2005, 17:12
.
...and trouble is named "Goths". ~;)
.
Not yet. The Goths already split and the Ostrogoths now own Ravenna. Beyond that no confrontation with either Goth faction.
Instead the Lombardi foolishly thought they could attack Campus Chattii AND get away with it. They volunteered to become my first eastern target.~D Fighting against their berserkers wasn't fun. After taking two of their provinces I now share a border with the Huns...
gardibolt
11-11-2005, 17:28
The Goths have been nasty in my campaign, slaughtering many of my citizens and buying flowers for many of my towns. I did beat them up a bit, and they headed off to the WRE for a while but now they're back (reduced from 2 and 1/2 stacks to 1 and 1/3 stacks--does that mean they settled somewhere, or just that they got pounded by the Romans?). Looks like another job for my general with night battle to pick off that 1/3 stack and then kill this horde.
in my franks campaign i tried out my "lets be friends" stragedy which basicly i initiate friendly diplomatic resolutions with everyone i can... first the local barbarians, then the hordes then i sent out and made alliances with the ERE, when i first started i also sent my army, small as it was to conquer the 2 rebel provinces to the east then after i had my feet strongly planted in the soil i looked for conquest, and the alemenii were fresh ripe, had only 1 province and were enemies of the WRE... and the minute i attacked the alemenii, the WRE opened negotiations for an alliance, i eagerly accepted, being a friend of rome is a great honor, i also knoticed the Burgandii had no friends besides me so i sent a diplomat and cancled my alliance, well i dont wanna be rude ;) and took there capital which was poorly defended due to there conquest expdition in the east and right now i'm marching to there last city... hopefully last faction member too.... during my war with the alemeniis I made sure there family members were dead so i didnt have to deal with an angry horde
Franconicus
11-21-2005, 13:19
I call my strategy 'violence and blackmail'.
First turn I gathered my troops at home to upgrade them. Then I attacked the Roman city right on the other side of the Rhine. My spy was successful and I took the town at once.
Then the Romans came and begged for peace. As I am extremly generous I donated peace and demanded two towns (Cologne and Augusta Vindelicorum) in return. They accepted and so this small campaign brought me another three towns. ~D So I managed to block the Saxons from going to France and I have the door to Italy!
I tried to make alliances with the other barbarians and enforced the capitol. I even made peace with the Alemans, because they paid a lot.~:)
Roman's armies started to hang around my towns and so I started war again. My army (1FM, 4 archers, 2 spears) marched east. I was ambushed and for this time it really looked like an ambush. My troops were marching in one line (FM in front and spears at the rear). On my left there were Roman archers and heavy inf., on my right archers and General, in front of me heavy infantry.
My army was a bit stronger in numbers.
Immidiatelly I attacked the general. After a tough fight he run away and I started killing the archers at this side. Meanwhile my infantry was struggling hard against the Roman infantry. Although I had severe losses I managed to win this battle because my FM could crush all the infantry formations after my archers had softened them.
Then I attacked the next town. The next turn this bloody general from the previous battle came again with loads of mercs and attacked me. Again I was able to beat him. But I have never seen such a bullheaded AI before.
Took the next town and again the Romans asked for peace. I accepted and received another town in France and the Italian town south of A.V..
Soon we were at war again. I took Ravenna and Rome and the rest of the Italian mainland. I controlled also all France except the two southern provinces. Romans had a huge army there and my invation operation failed. And I hadn't seen a single horde so far.
In RTW this would have been enough to win the game. Not in BI. Burgund attacked my hometown. Alemans did the same. I could beat them and took the Aleman hometown. Saxons attacked my northern town and took it. So I had to send an army from the south to punish them.
Then hordes appeared. First Vandals then Roxelans. Until now they did not attack me because my towns are very well defended. If I am lucky they will attack the Romans in France. If not they will turn north to attack my weaker cities in the north. So suddenly a new game started. I am wondering which horde will come next :hide:
Good luck with your game. Remember that it is almost enough to show enemy Hordes armies with lots of men, not quality. This will scare them off in most cases so they will move forward, leaving you alone. This works best at YOUR border! Otherwise try to make diplomaty to let them pass your lands in peace.
Watchman
12-08-2005, 09:55
Hordes also seem to be adverse to forts at strategic chokepoints (which the German forests are lousy with). It doesn't matter if it's just a bunch of scared peasants sitting in there; I've watched the whole Hun horde mill uncertainly about for almost a decade before the few piddling forts I built to stall them. Mind you, just in case I plugged all the gaps in my borders I could - the idea of having a Hun stack circling from the south to besiege Vicus Franki while the armies were elsewhere wasn't very appealing, and they too can use those forest squares to hide their movement.
'Course, when they finally went and laid siege to one, I brought up an army and delivered some severe smiting on them. Say what you will about Hunters, but with the exp plusses from shrines and gold-grade weapons (courtesy of the missile-upgrading temple the Saxon capital had lying around when I took it -the Levy Spearmen could appreaciate the bonuses too) they tend to win firefights with those Horde HAs pretty handily.
I'm a huge fan of the Franks, largely because I hate factions without paved roads. I'm currently trying to horde the Franks and settle them in Britain to start. See the following thread for my experiences and discussion:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57884
saxon_maik
12-09-2005, 17:05
I tried doing the historically correct thing and went horde within a few turns after spending all my money on more troops and upgrades. On my way to southern France I sacked three WRE towns to build up cash reserves.
I made the mistake of taking the three target provinces over the course of several turns, which meant my treasury was drained immediately for army upkeep after taking the first city. After settling in all three places it took less than 5 turns for my cash reserves to be depleted.
That was enough time for the WRE to send armies after me from Spain and Italy. Without my horde units I was low on troops and had a hard time defending my cities while trying to improve my economic situation AND maintain public order.
And then the Lombards took over my starting province and the three sacked WRE towns my horde left behind. Between the Lombards attacking from the west and the relentless WRE I was effectively going nowhere for lack of income and enough troops to expand.
Maybe next time I try to take all of Spain first and consolidate my situation there. That strategic position should be easier to defend against the WRE.
I'm a huge fan of the Franks, largely because I hate factions without paved roads. I'm currently trying to horde the Franks and settle them in Britain to start. See the following thread for my experiences and discussion:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57884
Just some thoughts about the Franks...
Overall, the Franks seem to be one of the better factions for an introduction to BI. They have a good solid selection of units (mostly infantry), good infrastructure, and can form a hoard. As Tincow mentioned, the ability to make paved roads is very useful, particularly once the Franks have expanded; holding together an empire with dirt roads is kinda hard. ~:rolleyes:
Although surrounded by several factions, the Franks tend not to be in immediate danger. Also, I find that starting with a single province and expanding from there is easier than starting with several and trying to keep them. One of their pagan temples provide an experience bonus to all units you produce, 3xp can be a major advantage; although the temple doesn't provide much happiness.
Also, the majority of Frankish units have a combat bonus in woods or snow... and you're in northern Europe. ~D
Levy Spearmen (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_levy_speamen.jpg)
Your first tier infantry unit; a decent unit with a matching price, it's worth learning to use them. They may not stand up long in a fight, but their javelins give them an advantage over other similar units. Be sure to set them an "fire at will" so they will use their javelins, otherwise they just mill around waiting for everyone to get ready; by the time they're ready the enemy is already on them. Large unit size and fairly low cost make them an alternative to peasants for garrison duty if you have the extra cash, since they can actually well... fight. <.<
Hunters (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_hunters.jpg)
As Watchman mentioned, these are actually a pretty good unit; which is good because they are your only archers. Stats are actually pretty close to the stats for levy spearmen. While not very well armored, they have a pretty good melee attack for archers, which makes them useful if you can maneuver them to charge the enemy flanks. But obviously their main use is to shoot little bits of pointy wood at the other guys. ~;p
Axe Heerbann (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_axe_heerbann.jpg)
Your first good solid troops, good moral and defense give the axe heerbann some staying power in a fight. Probably the best unit ability for upkeep cost the Franks have; a good choice if you're struggling economically. Add to this snow and woods combat bonuses and a shield wall, and you've got a good all around unit.
Sword Heerbann (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_sword_heerbann.jpg)
Almost the same as the axe heerbann, the two are pretty much interchangeable in your armies. The sword heerbann has a higher defense skill, but also a higher upkeep. The sword heerbann also has the heavy weapon type instead of light. If you have the resources, go with swords; either way, they're both good solid units to use as the majority of your army.
Francisca Heerbann (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_francisca_heerbann.jpg)
These guys are expensive. Slightly higher attack than sword heerbann, with a lower defense, and a throwing axe attack... for a major increase in cost. Are they worth it? ...it depends. If you can afford the cost, the ranged attack is nice; but sword heerbann do a good enough job as it is. If you decide to use them, be sure to put them on fire at will (and watch that none of your troops charge in front of them ^^;)
Raiders (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_raiders.jpg)
Hope you like these guys, because if you want to use calvary, this is most likely what you'll use. A decent enough unit, it also has the Frankish combat bonus in snow. For some reason these guys really seem to drop like flies under archer fire, so keep an eye on them. Obviously it's always a good idea to have some light calvary along with the army (guys in metal jackets don't run fast for some reason ~;p ) and they get an experience upgrade at the stables. You probably won't field as many as you will heerbann, but they're useful.
Noble Warriors (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Dt3r/RTW%20Franki/Franki_noble_warriors.jpg)
Pretty much standard heavy calvalry, requires a lot of infrastructure and money to train these guys. Use these if you don't want to risk the life of a family member, but you want their heavy calvary. They're strong, but you're probably better off with infantry units as the Franks.
Watchman
12-09-2005, 23:30
You forgot the Paladins. Although they can be a pain - I converted one of the larger WRE towns (the one right west of Vicus Franci, whatever its name now was) to Christianity with an eye of acting as a production center for these guys... and when I finally got the prequisite Monastery level built found out they're not actually that much better as plain vanilla than Noble Cavalry with the +3 exp bonus from shrines (which, naturally, the Paladins don't get, unless you can go and replace the church with the appropriate shrine *after* building the high-level monastery - haven't tried). Bugger. But with the exp bonus from the highest-level monastery they should be good enough for field deployement.
Noble Cavalry are pretty good and well worth the price, especially if paired with Raiders for flanking and pursuit duties. I've noticed that after I started adding those guys into my armies the infantry (the trusty lineholder Levy Spearmen, who've done splendidly against all comers thus far, plus Hunters) tend to end up watching from the sidelines while the cavalry tear the enemy line apart unit by unit. Once the enemy army has thoroughly confused, tired and weakened itself trying to figure out how to approach the textbook spears-centre/cavalry-flanks/archers-behind formation it tends to be almost depressingly easy to roll up the whole lot with well-aimed cavalry assaults. The infantry are mostly necessary for mop-up work at that point, such as taking care of any pesky schiltroms that might be standing around looking all prickly.
Incidentally, is there any reason to use Axe Heerbanns instead of Swords unless you're so desperately short of cash the few dozen denar upkeep difference counts (in which case you probably have rather bigger problems anyway) ? ~:confused:
Good overview D3tr. However, you left out a major unit... and the single greatest reason for ANY barbarian faction to convert to Christianity.
Paladins (https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/paladins.jpg)
The best cavalry available to the Franks. The same base attack as the Noble Warriors, but an extra 4 charge bonus and an extra point in defense. In addition they have higher morale (Good vs. Excellent) and they do not charge without orders. Paladins are a match for any heavy infantry in the game, with the possible exception of the Sassanid, who you are unlikely to encounter. The downside is that you must have a Monastery (lvl 2 of Hermitage) which essentially means that you'll have to convert to Christianity before you can get them. However, the level 3 of that building will give than an extra experience point, increasing their stats over the Noble Warriors even more.
[edit] ack, beaten to the post again. I do think Paladins are better than Watchman gives them credit for. They certainly take a long time to get, but once you have them they are the ultimate mobile flankers. Due to their extremely high morale they will fight much longer than the Noble Warriors and you never need to worry about them going somewhere that you didn't want them to go.
As for the Axe Heerbann, I *think* that the axes are armor piercing, which the swords are not. This means that the Axe Heerbann will perform far better against heavy infantry and cavalry than Sword Heerbann will, despite the lower stats.
Thanks :bow:
I actually forgot about paladins because I never converted to Christianity; the +3xp was too much for me to resist, even with happiness trouble. ^^;
The sword and axe heerbanns are still a little strange... I mean they have the same recruitment cost, and very similar stats. If the axes have armor piercing that would make sense; otherwise I'm not sure what the major difference is. The swords are higher tech and upkeep... is that all for an extra 3 defense skill? ~:confused:
@watchman: yeah, I had some pretty severe cash problems for a while last game. I found that if you field say... a stack worth of axes rather than swords, you save enough to train an extra unit. Not to mention the fact that you don't need to upgrade barracks at each city... saves a few thousand denarii until you can get things back under control. Once I had income again I switched to mass producing sword heerbann.
Oh, and I hope you never have to face the Sassanids as the Franks. The Sassanids expanded out of control in my last game, and I suddenly saw this odd light blue stack of troops... and over 3/4 of it was heavy calvary. O.o
I got slaughtered in my first fight, but I managed to win the second by careful use of the shieldwall formation. All I can say is that cataphracts and clibinarii put up a heck of a fight.
Watchman
12-10-2005, 02:03
Huh. In my game the Axes and Swords seemed to come out from the same level of barracks - the next one was already Franciscas, wasn't it ? And at least according to my export_descr_unit file the axes don't have AP, either.
Aside from the minor difference in upkeep costs (20 denarii base), the only difference I can see is that the Axes get a bonus exp point from the highest-level barracks and the Swords don't...
Mouzafphaerre
12-10-2005, 02:53
.
I think I'll mod the axechaps to have AP instead of getting rid of them. :yes:
.
Huh. In my game the Axes and Swords seemed to come out from the same level of barracks - the next one was already Franciscas, wasn't it ? And at least according to my export_descr_unit file the axes don't have AP, either.
Aside from the minor difference in upkeep costs (20 denarii base), the only difference I can see is that the Axes get a bonus exp point from the highest-level barracks and the Swords don't...
Really? Then there's even less of a difference than I thought...
Do you know if the weapon type plays any significant role?
Watchman
12-11-2005, 12:28
I doubt it. Far as I know it only matters to some *very* specific bonuses from buildings, and I've wondered a bit if it might have some effect on the "wound recovery rate" of casualties.
Anyway, it seems that the game conceptualization requires AP infantry weapons to be either maces (à la Sughdians) or two-handed "mass" weapons like the big axes of the Chosen Axemen or the big clubs of the Hounds of Chulainn - those assorted Germanic berserkers with their big two-handed swords don't have it, for example. Beats me if that's particularly logical, but I assume the designers had some underlying logic for it.
Mouzafphaerre
12-11-2005, 14:30
.
I think I'll mod the axechaps to have AP instead of getting rid of them. :yes:
.
.
Done. They have a reason to exist now.
.
Wilhelm The Mediocre
12-12-2005, 00:58
Well, I have read before that with some armours, more damage is done to the wearer with a hard strike with a large object rather than attempting to pierce it with swords and such. Something about the force of the blow being transferred through to shatter the bones and organs of the victim. Perhaps this is their logic.
Watchman
12-12-2005, 13:45
That's how maces and similar brute-force blunt-instrument weapons work by. Although it's not just "some armours" - more or less all of them are suspectible to greater or lesser degree of impact trauma getting transferred through to the wearer even if the armour isn't actually penetrated as such.
Which is one reason everyone always wore some sort of thick padding under metal armour - it helps absorb the impact.
And as you might imagine a blow strong enough to cause severe damage through honest-to-god solid plate isn't going to much even notice something like mail... but then again those "mass" weapons (axes included) also had a habit of pulverizing shields on solid hits.
paul.muad.dib
12-14-2005, 00:13
Hi, all of you!
Did anyone try to play the franki campain on H/H? I have tried it a few times but it seems to be very challenging.
The problem is the following: You have less income at the beginning and thus can't build a army for an invasion. From the very start, my income is negative. So this first thing i did was to take the rebel town in the North-East. This balanced my financial situation.
But in the following turns it alway becomes negative again. I allway get lots of heirs (around 10) and I can't pay for their upkeep even if I disband all other units.
Well I now managed to conquer cologne and Trier and have kept my capital but lost the rebel town to the saxons. Again my situtiation is critical. Each turn one of my cities is sieged either by the saxons or the WRE. The WRE send great armies against me but as long as my cities are sieged I can't build units my self. I even can't replace my losses.
The WRE just seems to be too powerful with so much ressources to be beaten by my small germanic tribe. For every man I kill they send 3 others.
The other barbarian tribes aren't very helpful too. They are all stuck in South-East Europe and no Threat for WRE.
So did anyone of you play the franks campain at h/h and give me a few hints?
Have you made trade agreements with any other factions? The Franks don't have the best economy at the start, but if you take some cities with ports and have trade agreements you can usually sustain yourself quite well. Even the WRE will trade with you... if you aren't at war.
I'd suggest trying for both Campus Frissi and Campus Chatti, which should both be rebel. You could also try to knock out some competition early on by attacking the Saxons or the Alemanni, both have just one province.
Worst case scenario, if nothing works you can just form a hoard and migrate somewhere better. Sack a few Roman cities and you'll have plenty of money when you settle in a new location.
I beat the Franks on VH/VH without many problems by going straight for the large WRE city west of your starting city. It may be a tough fight, but it can easily be accomplished if you do it with care and keep reinforcing your beseiging army from your capital. During my campaign I allied with all the barbarian factions and expanded almost exclusively at the expense of the WRE until very late in the game.
paul.muad.dib
12-14-2005, 14:25
I started another game and this went much better. I sacked campus chatti (Berlin???). Since I experienced the WRE to atack after only a few turns I posted nearly the whole army from my capital (Frankurt) at the Rhine-bridge. By that I could delay the WRE's attack a few turns. The next years were a constant struggle against the mighty army of the WRE. I could not hold the bridge but finally managed to crush them.
This time they didn't get any reinforcements. Thus, I could conquer Trier and Köln quickly one after another. By now I also sacked campus frisi (Amsterdam?). The saxons have a huge army in the north so they will be the next to deal with. The WRE still atacks me but their amies can easily defeated at the moment.
By these experiences I can give some major hints:
1. Let some of your family members die! This might sound curious as they are your most powerful units. But their upkeep is too expensive at the beginning and you get too much of them. This realy improves your financial situation.
2. Expand to the west ASAP. Don't let the WRE become strong again. You will need at least 3 cities to have enough ressources.
3. The saxons are your enemy. Allthough the WRE is you primary goal you can't coexist with them. Keep them small but don't waste your ressources on them as long as the WRE is still strong.
4. Use the rhine bridge to meet the WRE armies. To beat them, you will need swordsmen as your spearmen are chanceless against their stronger units.
5. Don't go to the east. You will just enage in battles you can avoid. I allied with Allemanni, Burgundi and long-beards.
gardibolt
12-14-2005, 21:07
It's pretty key to avoid fights with factions that can horde too---this means allying with the Burgundians, if at all possible, while the Saxons and the Alemanni are safe to go after. Hitting the Alemanni before they can build too many berserkers is a good idea. I initially allied with the WRE so I could fight and eliminate the Saxons and the Alemanni, and then the treacherous Romans backstabbed me so I could have at them with a clear conscience.
I started another game and this went much better. I sacked campus chatti (Berlin???). Since I experienced the WRE to atack after only a few turns I posted nearly the whole army from my capital (Frankurt) at the Rhine-bridge. By that I could delay the WRE's attack a few turns. The next years were a constant struggle against the mighty army of the WRE. I could not hold the bridge but finally managed to crush them.
This time they didn't get any reinforcements. Thus, I could conquer Trier and Köln quickly one after another. By now I also sacked campus frisi (Amsterdam?). The saxons have a huge army in the north so they will be the next to deal with. The WRE still atacks me but their amies can easily defeated at the moment.
Glad it's going much better for you. ^^
Good news for you... the Saxons have a very nice temple you might want to keep, +3 for missile weapons. And with the territory you have, the Saxon capital is easy to defend.
Now that you fought off the inital attack by the WRE, you should be fine. If they have a civil war you're in a good position to exploit it. Since you said you'll be heading exclusively west, you may want to send one of those extra generals along your eastern border to build watchtowers.
Rodion Romanovich
12-15-2005, 13:23
I think the easiest thing is to go horde first turn, then split up the horde in three parts, laying siege on the two closest roman cities with two of them, and siege on the saxon capital with the third one. Then I assaulted the cities and settled. I converted all the cities to Christianity, and lost two of them because of it, but I could deal with the incoming Roman counter-attacks and retake the lost roman city soon enough. Retaking the saxon city was more difficult. After getting back the lost roman city, I retook my starting city. After that, it was pretty easy. Training mostly cavalry and using the family members and archers a lot made it easy to expand in all directions. As soon as I could, I trained paladins, and paladins + armor + foot archer support and perhaps a few levy spearmen can be quite powerful. Those units sufficed until I had conquered most of modern France and the Italian peninsula. I actually found levy spearmen to be the best infantry available for forming a line in the early stages, but relied more on cavalry and archers in most battles, as the lowest quality infantry was of quite low quality IMO. Not until fransisca heerbann becomes available is there any idea to train more infantry IMO.
If acting quickly enough, the province goal will be completed before the hordes come. If not, I recommend having expanded east in order to be able to hire some vandal foot archer mercenaries, which are good for defending key cities vs the hordes. As the franks IMO lack good infantry before the francisca heerbann, I'd recommend fighting hordes using city defense and sallies rather than fighting them on open ground.
Franconicus
12-15-2005, 13:27
I do not agree. There is no need to horde as Frank. If you katank you can easily take most of Gaul plus Augusta Vindelicorum and all of Italy before the first hords appear. That is quite easy. I never changed to Christianity, only if the town was already Christian (like some towns in Italy).
gardibolt
12-15-2005, 18:32
Yeah, I never bothered converting towns; I just seized the Christian ones in Italy to build paladins and priests. Everything that was pagan was 100% pagan so I didn't see any point to trying to convert (and I never had any Christian family members anyway).
Mouzafphaerre
12-15-2005, 23:45
.
I've never yet come up to any christian towns in Italy or Gaul. :end: All those stupid Mithra temples. I raze them as soon as I retrain my conquering units to get the bonus, because culture penalty is not something you want to live with. I even destroy some level 2 buildings unless I'm in a position to replace them with my level 3 ones.
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gardibolt
12-16-2005, 19:34
Hm, in my game both Rome and Ravenna were Christian.
Hm, in my game both Rome and Ravenna were Christian.
Rome was the only Christian city I took in my game, I never took Ravenna. But yeah, I think most of the WRE is pagan except for a handful of Italian cities. (maybe Tarrentum?)
Mouzafphaerre
12-17-2005, 08:05
.
FKA Ravenna was pagan. ~D I didn't touch Rome. (I think I'm going to sack her. :viking:)
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I don't remember exactly ANY Christian city in the WRE, because I like more the eastern fractions. But it is definitely true that Rome and Tarentum start as christian towns.
If you start a WRE campain just to have a look for that you will see any details. However: In all cities of both Roman Empires you will find some basic Christianity inside theire population. The starting mix of religiones is one of the reasons for their troubles early on.
I thougt it should be told, even when not new.
I'm about to start a Frankish campaign. My plan is to Horde immediatly and get away from all those Germanic tribes, which in turn later in the game usually get the hordes.
So, I'm going to take my Horde and capture the Iberian peninsula, from there I'll push back upwards towards the English channel, taking all of modern France. I'll let you know how I get on.
Ok, early campaign (as I’m only in the very early stages so far).
You need income so need land. There are 5 rebel regions around you so consolidate what troops you have and I recommend striking North into Tribus Chattii. You need to get there before the Saxons start moving South.
Use you’re diplomat and spy. The diplomat, I sent across to the WRE and started negotiating ANYTHING that generates income – they asked me to attack the Allemani, which I accepted once the price became too high to ignore! I also sold Trade Rights for a large lump sum which I immediately spent on queuing up troops and buildings in my Capital.
I am basically sending the small army I started with on a round route to capture the Rebel provinces but have missed out on Tribus Frisii (the WRE repelled the Saxons and took it) so have sent them East. However, the WRE broke another money making deal (Military Access) with me so made themselves targets.
With an army recruited with WRE money I have captured Augusta Treverorum, I was going to just strip it for cash but after slaughtering the population, the happiness is high and its making money per turn…..so I’m going to keep it as a step towards my key goals and it helps to defend my Capital by blocking the bridge. I used my spy to open the gates for me so managed to take the town with only two units of Hunters. I had a full army but decided to not use them once my spy told me who was in the settlement.
I have trained two further diplomats and sent one North and the other East, all to get Trade agreements with whoever they encounter. The upside with taking a Huge city like Augusta Treverorum is that not only is it making money, so boosting my economy but it has a large population (even after the extermination) – something the barbarian factions lack. I now plan to constantly recruit Peasant units form here and feed them into Vicus Franki, which is my main recruitment base at the moment.
This way I can off set the drop in population caused by recruiting warrior units AND increase the population in my main city so I can rapidly get to the higher level buildings.
I did attack the Allemani as the WRE paid me too. I crushed their two armies and brokered a peace (more money to me) so have withdrawn from their lands.
With all this income from diplomatic deals I’ve managed to boost my Capital but with my agreements with the WRE now in tatters it remains to be seen if I’ve stabilised my economy – I’m only approx 10 turns in, so this is very early game.
So far I have: Tribus Franki, Tribus Chattii, Tribus Marcomanni and Germania Superior. I think the WRE may now pose a problem. I am likely to keep any taken cities with their own main religion and if it differs from my main religion I won’t keep a governor in it so as to try and reduce the penalties.
I’m still early in the campaign but have effectively won already. This is mainly due to capturing two key regions:
Tribus Marcomanni & Tribus Quaddi
Both these start out, as Rebel held areas and although I was slow in getting them and hence had to combat the WRE in Quaddi that isn’t much of an issue as you will have to eventually be at war with them to complete your allotted tasks anyway.
These two regions have become large cash generators because I have combined them with diplomatic agreements with the other barbarian tribes in Europe. Because of their location they seem to attract the large amount of trade from the other tribes they are surrounded by.
Obviously, they also are targets and I’ve had minor problems but nothing serious so far. The only major disadvantage to them is also their advantage, location, as it leads them open to any Hordes coming from the East (although most tend to head South into Roman lands initially in my experiences).
One of the difficulties playing the Franks (this may also apply to other Pagan factions) is the number of family members that you have. I’ve found that I’ve had so many that I’ve fielded an army where its only Cavalry IS family members! (4 in one partial stack)
So, I’m lucky that I started off immediately on the Diplomatic course. Now I have trade and better treaties with virtually all the barbarian factions surrounding the Franks. Being centrally placed is ideal if you want to go down the Diplomatic route and your lucky in that the only people you have to wage war on is the WRE.
I didn’t realise that you could ally with a Horde…..until the Goths accepted a proposal of an Alliance, I was confused that the “Trade Agreement” option wasn’t displayed until I noticed they were actually a Horde passing my diplomat! Once they’d settled though it was easy to set up trade with them (as my diplomat had shadowed the horde).
The WRE are not overtly aggressive so have not expanded or even attempted to interrupt my gradual expansion West, although they have a large presence in the regions South of the river (Raetia, Noricum & Pannonia)
I like the way you play the Franks, as it is totally different to the way I got used. Sounds interesting enought to make a trial.. later :)
Keep up to inform us about your progress.
Progress report:
Its approx 393AD. With the Saxons destroyed I’ve been using their enhanced buildings to produce line troops with high weapon upgrades and as of last night I just completed one stack of such troops. These will be shipped down to Vicus Franki to be retrained and receive the +3/+4 experience upgrades from the temples.
This will give Gold weapon, Silver armour and 1 Silver chevron experience Archers and the same with Levy Spearmen for example. Ouch!
Fly’s in my ointment:
War with the Burgundii and Lombardi’s as both went and broke our agreements by attacking Tribus Marcomanni. (Greedy, I call it) I have a near full stack in the region I use against rebels and as a deterrent to the WRE & ERE. I used it to break both sieges.
I felt obliged to then march on into Tribus Burgundii to spank the petulant Burgundii’s
The Burgundii now reside in Locus Barbaricum, I have left the Lombardi in Tribus Vandali – with only one substantial army in the region this needs to be done carefully and I need to ensure a gaggle of diplomats are in the region in case I encounter any Hordes. I won’t march this small army further East except to raid the Lombardi IF they continue to attack me.
…however, the “Ozzy-Goths” are my allies and the Vandals have passed me by. That does leave the Sarmatian’s though….I know they’re about but hope they move South (not sure I could handle their heavy cavalry). My Eastern settlements are moving to build Stone walls and archer/spearmen combos for defence.
The Alemanni dropped their long alliance with me when war broke out with the Burgundians – talk about backing a loosing horse!
I have been preparing for my march on the three key regions I need – I think they’re Lugdinensis, Aquitania & Narbonensis – so have made two full stacks for this purpose (with the stack in progress from Tribus Saxones). One stack for each region needed.
So, once the Alemanni dropped their alliance with me I marched one of them South, destroyed the Alemanni faction on the way then marched through Raetia, Alpes Maritimae Et Cottinae and onto Narbonensis.
When it hit Alpes Maritimae Et Cottinae it encountered the Vandal Horde. The horde attacked but I withdrew towards my target. I had a diplomat in the area (spying out Arles), so I moved him in to ensure good will between us. So, once my army besieged Arles in the next two turns, the Vandal Horde just moved on past my army. Aren’t they nice! They’ve even moved into Goth lands so we’ll see what happens there, if the Vandals can deplete the Goths before I invade all the better………
Another blue-bottle in my cream pie:
The Celts. Although the WRE are happily in control of England the Celts have decided to land forces in Belgica – Twice! I’ve used the army I constructed there (as described above, one of them I’d planed to take my last regions) to repel both invasions with ease. They have nowhere to go so both armies have been utterly destroyed! Twits.
You will note that I have been single-minded and did not take the cities Augusta Vindelicorum or Massilia. This allows for Hordes to play with the WRE rather than me.
Anyway. Things progress, I have several treaties to renegotiate and an Ally in the Goths to betray – they hold both my remaining target regions.
I require Seven regions (including the target ones) to Win and I think I’ll just take those in the Iberian Peninsula as my main armies will be in that area after taking my key regions.
BTW – my original Faction leader died last night. He was 80+ but it means I’ve completed three quarters of the allotted game with the SAME faction leader. I had hoped he’d cling to life to see the end as it’s less than 10 years away (20 turns I’d estimate).
I have not had to cull any family members in this game despite the large number that STILL keep “coming of age”. They make handy cavalry units and as I’m busy raising armies to make my final push they come in handy to lead these new armies AND lead patrol armies against any nosy neighbours on my Eastern borders.
Despite the wars with the Barbarian tribes my income is still between 2-5k profit per month (dependant on Rebel activity) and I’ve found that Tribus Burgundii makes more than 1k per turn!! So that was a nice capture.
Money is so good that I only need one stack of eight cavalry units for anti-rebel duties. I normally just send out a diplomat from one of my settlements to pay them off these days. It’s cheaper than the hit in trade it takes whilst I move an army to fight them.
roman pleb
04-23-2006, 19:09
I picked the franks as my first choice for a BI campaign. I allied with the WRE to hold them off while i took the saxon and alemanni settlements. I don't know what temple the saxons had but now I train gold-sword archers. The WRE turned on me as well as the lombards and burgundii. I hit the WRE with assasins and took out most of their family members before i attacked them. I've already taken 8 of their settlements.
_Maximus_
06-14-2006, 20:36
Playing with the Frank's is a pleasnt expirience! Ona thing that bothers me very much is that barbarian generals have a bad marks,ability's! I was trying to change it but it didn't work out! Because they all have bad habits and they are bloody! You are all familiar with the word "BLOODYHANDED"! And when you at least are sucessfull with upgradeing their attributes, they loose them too soon! I really don't know what to do! I really liked to play with Romans because they generals were outstanding! I am only going to say one thing! academy's! But I can't wait to install some of the patches to repair some bug's in the game,and I am also looking forward to play with MTW 2! I only hope that they will have sense to make some of the little less fractions,good generals! But we will see!
Dead Knight of the Living
07-10-2006, 16:49
I just purchased BI yesterday. I'm a bit behind the times. My first campaign is with the Franks. Since this is Barbarian Invasion, I felt it appropriate to start out as a Barbarian horde.
I retrained all my troops since the capital has a blacksmith. I also trained a second spy. I allied with the Allemani. Second turn I became a Horde. I went straight to Avaricum which was defended by one general and some limitates (spelling). I took that easily. Now Avaricum is mine.
I have another army up north which is going to sack the towns in northern Gaul just for some extra coin. Then I'm going to take the other two towns required for victory (I forgot their names already, but I'm sure you all know the two down in southern France I'm talking about.
AFter that is achieved I'll have a major river as my eastern border and the Pyrennes to the west. I'll put some units on the bridges and passes for defense and begin development.
When I'm happy with the progress of my development (and if I'm still alive) I'll beef up the defenses at the Pyrennes and begin my conquest of Northern Italy and Germany.
This is my plan anyway. Whether it goes this way or not remains to be seen.
And I'm outta here like last year.
Dead Knight of the Living
07-17-2006, 20:50
My plan is experiencing "suck" factor 10 right now. I read in here someone said if you horde and go west you'll be way ahead of the conventional hordes.
Well, maybe my case is the exception, but no sooner did I take Avaricum Burgidala and Arles than the Vandal Horde appeared. They took Avaricum, but lost a crud load of folks doing so, so I took it back easily.
But then the Roxolani arrived and took Burgidala from me. I allied with the Vandals. The Vandals took Burgidala from the Roxolani. The Roxolani horded up and are right now besieging Arles.
Prior to taking Arles, the Roxolani defeated my Faction Leader's full stacked army. He whipped up on me easily with pretty much nothing but horse archers and a few chosen swordsmen units. THe horse archers were too much for me. I ony had 3 units of hunters and one of those were down to 61 from a previous engagement.
So after they whipped me, they besieged Arles where my Faction leader retreated to along with his heir. I have one field army which is only about 70% manned.
No way will I save Arles. Arles is doomed.:skull: But I'm also generating almost no money.
I'm getting my butt kicked. :dizzy2: It's a nightmare folks.
I get so mad reading this thread because I read a lot of you have conquered all of Gaul and are cruising along. I don't suck this bad. I never had problems like this in regular RTW or RTR. But here I am sucking. This sucks. :wall:
I need hunters to counter the Horse Archers.
But again, money is tight.
I see myself rehording and trying to conquer Spain.
But we'll see.
I love this game so far. It's a real challenge for me. So far anyway.
gardibolt
07-18-2006, 17:30
When hording, you're usually better off not settling back down again for quite a while. Consider this plan: After retraining, horde, devastate all Gaul and much of Spain, not occupying, but making a ton of money. This land is no longer attractive to other hordes, since everything is in ruins, and they're likely to turn attention elsewhere. You send your wealthy horde into Italy, and finally settle down in the big, wealthy cities there. Then go back with armies and occupy Gaul and Spain, FTW.
Dead Knight of the Living
07-18-2006, 21:10
When hording, you're usually better off not settling back down again for quite a while. Consider this plan: After retraining, horde, devastate all Gaul and much of Spain, not occupying, but making a ton of money. This land is no longer attractive to other hordes, since everything is in ruins, and they're likely to turn attention elsewhere. You send your wealthy horde into Italy, and finally settle down in the big, wealthy cities there. Then go back with armies and occupy Gaul and Spain, FTW.
That's a good idea. And actually I've been kind of thinking about that. Right now I own Massilia and Avaricum. I've got my one field army at the bridge east of Massilia. And every other turn they're attacked by either the Goths (not horded) or the Roxolani (who is horded right now).
The Roxolani are really making me mad. They've horded and are just hanging out around Gaul. They're not doing anything. THey don't attack cities or anything. THey just send an army to attack me every turn. Their armies must be regenerating. They keep coming back.
I make just enough money to retrain my troops and put them back at that bridge.
Avaricum is completely undefended (not counting 6 peasant units in the city). But nowone is attacking it right now. Kind of weird to me.
I'm going to stick it out and see if I catch a break. The Roxolani and Goths have to go to war with each other eventually. I might be able to take back Arles if that happens. Then I'll see where I can go from there.
Dead Knight of the Living
07-19-2006, 20:56
I lost. STarted over and sacked pretty much all of Gaul. I built up over a 100,000 denarii and have settled down in Spain where I'm kicking butt on some Western Roman Empire Rebels.
It's looking more promising so far.
I just started BI myself this past week, and unfortunately will have to wait until after my graphic card gets back from warranty service to continue. So, I'm just JONESIN' reading alls of these posts! But I digress...
Anyway, I left off during my second attempt at a Frankish empire. I horded right off the bat and plowed through Gaul, finally settling in at the middle one of the three conditional provinces. This may have been a mistake, but I'm going try to salvage the game anyway.
My problem is that I'm losing money right and left. I hold two adjacent provinces right now. I have a port. The saxons are expanding southward. WRE are coming in from Spain and from Arles. So, I'm thinking of hording again. But, before I do that, are there some ways to salvage a bleeding economy that might allow me to stay on the normal conquest track? I'm losing about 400-600 denarii per turn, and most of it seems to be bleeding out of the capital.
So what econonomic things can I do to correct this? I had a better time managing the economy in RTW.
it is so hard for me to turn them into Cristains. They keep revolting and there doesn't seem to be a good time to change it from paganism
Claudius the God
11-24-2006, 23:19
of the five barbarian factions in that region (alemanni, Franks, Lombardii, burgundii, saxons) - only the Franks can build those level 3 roads (highways?)... and later in the game they have access to Onagers (some other barbarian factions do too, but not all)
Roman_Man#3
11-24-2006, 23:49
ya, the franks are one of my favourite campaigns ever, great units, highways, onagers, they are just such a fun campaign to play.
Robespierre
11-28-2006, 18:06
my most recent frank campaign, the tribe horded on turn 1 and has now migrated to asia minor. forget all about those objectives, i think the steppes will look nicer with decent roads! east romans don't seem to handle flying columns of heavy lancers so well....
so far Sinone is the capital, and Caesarea secured. the challange is to hurt the ERE economy so badly they can't keep building new armies, and are forced into a ceasefire.
the frank combination of civilized and barbaric is fun to play, i mean to find out how to mod the game to do something similar with the lombards or the sarmatians.
gardibolt
12-05-2006, 19:28
I never went that far east with the Franks....have you run into any Sassanids yet? They always beat the crap out of me with the ERE, but the Franks might be able to deal with them more effectively.
Severous
01-21-2007, 00:18
A Frank campaign here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77526
Didnt do much. Defended the starting region against all comers.
Personally, on my first turn as Franks I train my second spy in Vicus Franki as well as retrain my meagre garrison.
On the second turn I pack up and head for Rome, sacking everything along my path. Settling in Italy gives me rich, well developed cities that are acquired with absolutely minimal losses: WRE tends to have plenty of troops on the frontier, but its italian provinces are sparcely garrisoned.
With ROme as my capital, I Christianize the rest of Italy, make a whole bunch of paladins and, for the lack of a better word, kick everyone's ass.
I'm currently in 385 AD in my Franks campaign. I've taken all of Gaul, some lands in Central Europe as well as Ravenna and Rome. I'm in the process of taking Sardinia and the Iberian peninsula.
I started off by taking the rebel settlements north of my capital, as well as crush the Saxons early on. The fact that they don't form a horde was a nice bonus. Then, the WRE offered me an alliance in exchange for help against the Alemanni. Seeing as they had taken 2 WRE cities I gladly obliged, adding some nice income to the realm.
After taking the Alemanni down, I noticed a full WRE stack near my capital, as well as a captured WRE spy. I preferred not to wait for them to attack first, so I snuck an army of Levies and Axe/Sword Heerbanns around south to take Augusta Treverorum. Taking that city gave me access to the dreaded Francisca Heerbann units.
Another problem arose in the form a Vandal hordes, who seemed keen on taking the lands of the Lombardi. I forged an alliance with the Vandals, and managed to snag a Lombardi town in the process. But, the Lombardi formed a horde, and laid siege to my capital which was left sorely underdefended by a peasant army and some levies. Luckily I had managed to train some Francisca Heerbann, as well as recruit two units of fearsome Graal Knights. My faction leader and heir marched west, leading a poweful army. After some heated battled, the Lombardi were driven away, and shortly afterwards they drove the Goths away.
My attention shifted to the Romans again. The western barbarians and hordes were duking it out amongst themselves. I kept a stack near my border just in case, though, while I continued to drive back the WRE armies. In less than 10 years, I took most of their settlements, but instead of actively occupying all of them, I exterminated the big ones and kept the smaller cities to myself. Many WRE cities rebelled, which turned out to be a mistake, as the WRE rebels proved unwilling to live in peace. Fortunatly I had gained massive amounts of cash, enough to train scores of Francisca Heerbanns and capture the rebellious cities.
The backbone of the WRE was broken. Their empire was divided, and rebellious Romans expanded their lands in the Italian peninsula... so I went after them as well. In a few bloody dieges I took Mediolanium, Ravenna and Rome... and gained the ability to train Paladins and Paladin Bodyguards with silver equipment.
Soon, the WRE will be crushed under my bootheel. The Franks will swarm Iberia and Italy, Sicilia and Africa, and then it's back to the west to crush the Huns and Vandals!
I'd like to mention that Franks have really crummy archers. Hunters are not worth training except as wall garrisons (to burn rams and towers), and perhaps in the unlikely event that you have to face a Hun/Vandal horde in a field battle.
That's about it. Other than those two cases, Hunters are a waste of a unit slot, since their range is short and their arrows can barely scratch even the lowly WRE Foederatii. Commies and Plumsare pretty much imune to Hunter arrows. Levy Spears and Francisca Heerbann will provide Franks with more than enough missile power while shield wall does a very good job of protecting their spearmen from enemy arrows.
Quintus.JC
01-11-2008, 21:27
The Franks is one of the easiest faction in BI. The only barbarian faction with the ability to form horde, by the end of the campaign i had all of Gaul, Iberia, Britania plus some additional province in Germania. Rome itself was conquered by the Vandals. thought i'd never see that.
gaiusmarius8
02-27-2008, 02:44
When I played the Franks, I killed the Saxons, then took out Lombardi and Burgundii early into their pathetic quibbling. I then took out Alemanni but purposely turned into a horde by the WRE. I then struck hard at home and later shattered WRE all together by taking the Italian Peninsula, Gaul, Spain, Sardinia, and Sicily. I remained to rebuild but I have 2 enemies who are frequently trying to subdue me. Sarmatians who Im beating into my other enemy; Vandals.
Quintus.JC
02-27-2008, 21:59
The Franks have an excellent set of troops, very balanced and powerful.
I play a mod that allows the Saxons, Celts, and Alemanni to horde. Any suggestions as to handling them?
ThePianist
03-05-2008, 02:54
Good overview D3tr. However, you left out a major unit... and the single greatest reason for ANY barbarian faction to convert to Christianity.
And, what other barbarian faction can convert to Christianity? Because I tried one other than the Franks, after destroying the pagan shrine I couldn't build a church.
Quintus.JC
03-05-2008, 21:11
I think the Alemanis are allowed to convert to Christianity. Although this prevent the trainning of the powerful Lambord Berserkers. The Saxon are a pure pagan faction. Celts, Burgundi and Lombardi are non-playable, could be played by changing the files. While Goths and Vandals are counted as Steppes. Although they should be Barbarian factions themselves.
eliterun
05-27-2008, 03:48
I started a campaign with the Franks before I'd played any total war...this was like 2 years ago, I forget exactly what happened, but I allied with the WRE and took the rebel cities around me, then gradually took the allemanni and the saxons...then I waited around for a little bit and the WRE cities next to me were as empty as tombs, so I quickly took Frisii, Trevorum, Vindelicorum.
So I started a new one today, remembered how easy it was to beat the Romans, and so I attacked the Saxons and Alemanni quickly. got two rebel cities (bribed one), then attacked the romans. only this time they had a bunch of stacks hidden in the fog of war. lesson....toggle fow off ;p
lol, no, just wait for the romans to be pre-occupied, I think I attacked them a little to early (368). Just wait until they're attacked on all fronts.
Hi
I started a Franks campaign recently and it's fun. I took the army my faction heir had to attack the rebel town to the east (marcomanni) - the army is easily enough to take the town and it gave me income without building more units. I then moved north from there, taking chatii - unfortunately the saxons beat me to frisii. In the meanwhile I built up an army in my capital and when the first son came of age I took him to lead it against the Alemannii and destroyed that faction by laying siege to their town and keeping their faction heir (he had the field army) busy until they tried to sally, but couldn't break my siege.
In the meantime I allied with the burgunds, lombards, saxons and the WRE - none of them has turned their backs on me yet... I know the saxons will eventually have to die, but as for now they are busy, trying to invade britannia (I use toggle_fow from time to time to keep an eye on the world situation, which is great fun, watching the sassanids beat up the ERE and stuff like that ^^).
Then the Vandals arrived and started going after the WRE towns... they sacked the town in Pannonia (cant think of the name right now) and carnuntum. I took Pannonia but then they turned around, because they seemed to be discouraged by the larger piles the WRE sent through Raetia and I decided they were too big of a threat and attacked with my faction heir. Due to using him in almost every battle since the start (also for the occasional rebel slapping which I tend to do with the general alone most of the time (if the rebels dont feature nasty spear units in which case I usually take an archer unit with me) he had already night fighter, which made it a little easier. The vandals only had one general with 4 stars. I attacked him first of course and since I had a decent army by that time I managed to kill him and in the following turns reduced the vandal horde to some family members that tried to stay alive. all that fighting took place in pannonia... I actually wanted to destroy them but then their faction leader somehow slipped into italy and thus the fow and was never to be seen until now...
I sent my army to retrain (since the pannonia town wasnt upgraded enough I had to send them all the way back to vicus frankii) and then returned to noricum to capture the rebel carnuntum (the vandals sacked it, remember) - I thought: "Fine, in addition to my poor towns in the north this gives me a nice roman addition without ever loosing my alliance with the WRE" - well... the turn I laid siege on carnuntum the huns arrived... and the goths arrived... and the sarmatians arrived - idk... i think the huns horded the sarmatians and the vandals had already horded the goths before they went into my sight, but the goths tried to go a little ERE first... well but they came... I had allied the sarmatians while they were still stationary (they asked for it, sending a diplomat - they offered trade rights, map info and alliance - i asked for some money do agree and got it!) - well it seemes they didnt like me for that bargain and somehow they declared war, though they never attacked me (the little diplomacy thing came, telling me they were at war with me, but nothing happened - they went into the east again - just threatening me for my rudeness in the beginning I guess ;) ) - well the huns and goths weren't so nice... after they fought among themselves for the right to pillage my lands (they engaged in a multi stack fight in southern pannonia - the goths lost and buggered off into the south.... probably too beaten up to bother the ERE... we'll see) the huns marched north, ready to be met by my field army that had abandoned the siege of carnuntum... there I am right now - my faction heir full of scars, command stars and influence, sporting an Ego that would shame Elvis with a nice stack of troops facing these bad ass horseman... i fear for him... they have more than one general with night fighter it seems - after saving i tried to attack, but wherever I did, when I turned night on there were still enough reinforcements to outnumber me quite clearly... and I hate these nasty horse archers, especially when I have an infantry strong army... the problem is, the huns not only have them but also pretty nice close combat cavalry that could rip my battle line apart if I'm not careful... my tactic is to keep the battle line in place (using cavalry (my general, raiders... thats all I have for now) as support where the enemy concentrates) to keep my archers alive that could be my only hope to kill off the enemy horse archers - furtunately I have a good amount of these hunters in my army
So, some questions:
1. will shield wall reduce or add to the chance my battle line resists the cavalry charge? I heard that there are cases where it does more harm than good...
2. fire or plain arrows? fire should make those horses run faster, right?
3. I agree the spearmen do their job, but will they have any staying power against huns chosen warriors? (heavy cavalry) or will they simply be crushed, making my archers vulnerable? (I tend to turn skirmish off, since I prefer my archers doing their job instead of running around follishly... if they are in danger I can micro them away myself)
any experiences, someone?
oh yes I also wanted to ask, how I could convert the franks to christianity but since there were a lot of suggestions in this thread already I'll try those out :)
Quintus.JC
10-11-2008, 13:08
1. will shield wall reduce or add to the chance my battle line resists the cavalry charge? I heard that there are cases where it does more harm than good...
2. fire or plain arrows? fire should make those horses run faster, right?
3. I agree the spearmen do their job, but will they have any staying power against huns chosen warriors? (heavy cavalry) or will they simply be crushed, making my archers vulnerable? (I tend to turn skirmish off, since I prefer my archers doing their job instead of running around follishly... if they are in danger I can micro them away myself)
any experiences, someone?
oh yes I also wanted to ask, how I could convert the franks to christianity but since there were a lot of suggestions in this thread already I'll try those out :)
1. Shieldwall in theory should have better effect resisting cavalry charge than normal formation, but as you said the result tend to be different sometimes. Shieldwall is essiantially a defensive formation, try them in custom battles and see for yourself if they're reliable or not.
2. Fire are less accurate, but more deadly if hit. I normally stick to plain arrors except when there are elephants around.
3. Some spearmen are weaker than others, from memory I think the Franks gets a relatively poor selection of spears. Their archers are quite useless as well. Their main strengh is their powerful swordsmen and Axemen.
You can convert the Franks to christianity by destroying the local Pagan shrine, then you would be given the option of building a Christian chapel on top of it's ruins.
Roslagii Keel
01-11-2009, 10:47
Faction Overview: Franks
A Roslagii Boredom project. This faction has obviously been discussed in detail already, but since I'm doing this for fun I'll write this anyway.
General Overview
The Franks start the game with their own little "Tribus" in germania, crammed together with the Chattii, Lombardi, Allemanni, and the others. The Franks, however, are not content fighting against their neighbours and raiding the romans. They dream of other things, of straight roads and mighty kings, of a realm that will last long and replace the romans as the major power in the west.
The Frankish Army
Franks fight on foot in close formation, and are known for their valor and durability. With the franks, your favorite battle scenario look like this: The enemy are forced to come to you. Your warriors are deployed in a shield wall on a hill. As the enemy charge up the slopes, a hail of javelins and throwing axes further weaken their momentum before battle is joined. After several failed attacks against your shield wall, you unleash your light cavalry on the flanks and paladins in the center, routing the enemy.
Infantry
The franks, like the saxons, train their Levy Spearmen to defend against other infantry rather than form a schiltrom against cavalry. While this makes them relatively steady and reliable fighters, it poses a significant disadvantage to the franks since they have no other spearmen. While durable, levy spearmen often need help from another unit to deal with cavalry. Axe and Sword Heerbanns are steady fighters that complement each other nicely. The sword heerbanns are good all-around fighters while the axe heerbanns are at their best fighting against other units of heavy infantry. In shield wall formation and with decent flank protection, these units are difficult to break. The Fransisca Heerbann is a great supporting unit with many uses, but always coming down to the throwing of those incredibly damaging axes. Compared to the rest of the frankish infantry, fransisca heerbann is an offensive unit that can use warcry before charging home.
Cavalry
Raiders are good for doing the things that only cavalry can do, and very little else. They are on the field to support your infantry, not play heroes. The Noble Warriors are your standard barbarian heavy cavalry - slow moving, headstrong, and deadly. They are best sent at the enemy to distract them when they try to regroup after yet another failed go at your shield wall. Paladins are a special case - tricky to unlock, but fully the equals of the scholae palatine on which they are based. I tend to use them as general troubleshooters so that my general can remain with the infantry. When only the second best will do - send the Paladins instead.
Missile
Hunters are decent archers, but not nearly the equals of lombard archers or the hunters of the saxons (who can often rely on the temples of Ull to equip them with top-notch bows and arrows.) Like the raiders, hunters are on the field to support your infantry. Ballistae and Onagers always come in handy.
Buildings/Technology
This is one of the major advantages of the Franks. Of all the barbarian, steppe, and hun factions only franks can build paved roads. They also have access to all five tiers of farming, and all three tiers of hermitages. The franks are a very efficcient, well fed, and organised faction who can still form a horde when need be. Their tech tree is otherwise the same as most other barbarians.
Diplomacy
Because the franks must control southern Gaul, they often have difficulties making alliances. Southern gaul tends to be the "thrash can" were all steppe hordes end up sooner or later. If you decide to take on your germanic neighbours early in the game the WRE are very interested in any alliance offers, as they will want to take the allemanni out rather than guard the entire border. If you go to war with the saxons or lombardi, and the burgundii have not yet horded, they are usually more than wlling to become your allies. The Allemanni tend to be weak and easily destroyed in AI hands, but if left to grow can pose a significant threat as their armies are more balanced than yours and frequently smart enough to exploit it. In the late game when you control several ports on both coasts, you may be forced to seek trade rights and alliances with such distant factions as the celts and berbers because you are at war with all your neighbours
Campaign Advice
This seems redundant considering the length of this thread. It might be worthwile to not horde early and let some other faction deal with the hordes in gaul before you head for your victory requirements. Because of the neghbouring regions bonus, it is sometimes better to christianize most of your empire all at once. Just make sure there is a lull in the warmaking and that you have decent armies in every city, since you will have to siege, retake and exterminate the populations before you can begin to consolidate christianity. This is the quickest and most bothersome way to christianize the franks, but when it's done it's done and you can focus your attention on traning paladins and other more important issues. Be sure to have a lot of spies out because if you suffer a major horde incursion in the middle of this process you're in a bad spot!
Nice overview, very good for a new member to do :bow:
Quintus.JC
01-11-2009, 18:22
In my Franks campaign I just horded on turn 2. Set my direction to Iberia and sacked any city along the way. Got my base at Carthego Nova and started to expand later, found the campaign rather difficult without hording.
Nice overview though. :yes:
Roslagii Keel
01-18-2009, 20:29
In my Franks campaign I just horded on turn 2. Set my direction to Iberia and sacked any city along the way. Got my base at Carthego Nova and started to expand later, found the campaign rather difficult without hording.
Nice overview though. :yes:
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it:beam:
Taking Iberia sounds like a very smart tactic considering the victory objectives (why didn't I think of that?) I'll definitly try that next time I play the franks. Did you have to chase the Vandals around or did they get bogged down somewhere else? Their hordes can be pretty nasty if they show up with the almighty "bad timing" on their side. In my first campaign I was laying siege to my own cities (hear the word of the Lord!) when the vandals showed up and claimed southern gaul before I could halt their advance. Then I had to spend many turns retaking my cities and drive the vandals into Iberia. At least the citizens were pretty darn christian by then (and a lot fewer...)
Quintus.JC
01-18-2009, 22:33
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it:beam:
Taking Iberia sounds like a very smart tactic considering the victory objectives (why didn't I think of that?) I'll definitly try that next time I play the franks. Did you have to chase the Vandals around or did they get bogged down somewhere else? Their hordes can be pretty nasty if they show up with the almighty "bad timing" on their side. In my first campaign I was laying siege to my own cities (hear the word of the Lord!) when the vandals showed up and claimed southern gaul before I could halt their advance. Then I had to spend many turns retaking my cities and drive the vandals into Iberia. At least the citizens were pretty darn christian by then (and a lot fewer...)
After taking Carthago Nova I started to expand rapidly around the Iberian penisular. After conquering the surrounding provences I decided to consolidate for a little while, building up the backward economic structure left by the Romans, convert all my settlements to Christianity and getting myself a couple stack of army. I pushed upwards into Francia, the Roman garrison was weak and the settlements fell pretty easily. It is then I noticed the massive hordes located around centre Europe; Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards. Vandals pushed themselves into Italy and are pratically eating the WRE alive, Visigoth is wandering aimlessly around Northern Italy, the Lombards occupied all the former Germania. I decided to avoid them and went north and captured Britain; where the Celts still hasn't managed to push the Romans out, both factions were swepped away by my army. Heavy infantry formed the bulk of my army, Swordsmen Heerbaan formed the backbone, Francisca and Axe Herrbaan formed shock infantry, Paladin made the cavalry, spearmen and missile were redundant and unessary, and weak. Lombards and Visigoth eventually pushed into France, forcing me to engage both. I held against the Visigoth while made the offensive against the Lombards to recover my home lands, after capturing Campus Franki the victory condition was met and campaign finished.
Roslagii Keel
01-19-2009, 10:04
Nice. I agree that the frankish hunters could use a sympathy hug. Hey I just got an idea! What if I take Vicus Saxones and instead of razing the Sacred Grove/Sacred Circle of Ull located there turn that settlement into hunter training camp!! :brakelamp:
Quintus.JC
01-19-2009, 20:45
Nice. I agree that the frankish hunters could use a sympathy hug. Hey I just got an idea! What if I take Vicus Saxones and instead of razing the Sacred Grove/Sacred Circle of Ull located there turn that settlement into hunter training camp!! :brakelamp:
You can certainly do that, but I might the Franks best stick with what they're good at, suprem heavy infantry and cavalry. What's the point of trying and failing to shoot your opponents full of holes when you can just ran them over with your supreme heavy infantry?
Roslagii Keel
01-20-2009, 09:34
Yeah, that's probably true. In TW games, it's easy to go overboard and micromanage yourself back into stone age. Perfectionism is not always to one's benefit. :juggle2:
Quintus.JC
01-20-2009, 17:17
Its about balancing the game, few factions in the game could have a perfect unit roster; Saxons are infantry supreme, but lacking in all other areas. Huns are Cavalry supreme, but doesn't fare as good in the infantry bit. With the exception of the two Roman faction and perhaps the Sassanids, all the other factions are either good at this or bad at the other.
coalition
01-22-2009, 07:17
Its about balancing the game, few factions in the game could have a perfect unit roster; Saxons are infantry supreme, but lacking in all other areas. Huns are Cavalry supreme, but doesn't fare as good in the infantry bit. With the exception of the two Roman faction and perhaps the Sassanids, all the other factions are either good at this or bad at the other.
What about the Berbers? :beam:
Roslagii Keel
01-22-2009, 10:49
Yeah, the Berbers are supreme all-around. They could take the Huns without breaking a sweat. :laugh4:
Read my Overview if you don't belive it! The Berbers are my favorite faction in BI, no competition. I'm pretty sure I could take any frank army 1:1 with the berbers... unless they're all paladins.
coalition
01-22-2009, 16:54
Yeah, the Berbers are supreme all-around. They could take the Huns without breaking a sweat. :laugh4:
Read my Overview if you don't belive it! The Berbers are my favorite faction in BI, no competition. I'm pretty sure I could take any frank army 1:1 with the berbers... unless they're all paladins.
Well what I enjoy about the Berbers is that there are 300 years ahead of everyone else. (They are Muslims already) I also enjoy watching my own troops getting slaughtered. The Berbers have a strange building roster though, with Militia Barracks been the highest. I doubt the Berbers would win though, the Berbers wear no armour.....they would get crushed in hand to hand.
But seriously it's because they speak like stereotype Arabs.
Roslagii Keel
01-22-2009, 17:53
Well what I enjoy about the Berbers is that there are 300 years ahead of everyone else. (They are Muslims already) I also enjoy watching my own troops getting slaughtered. The Berbers have a strange building roster though, with Militia Barracks been the highest. I doubt the Berbers would win though, the Berbers wear no armour.....they would get crushed in hand to hand.
But seriously it's because they speak like stereotype Arabs.
You force me to describe in detail how I would go about defeating a frankish army with the berbers.
First things first, the berbers really are christian! Actually I think only the berbers in Tingi were christian, the rest were still worshiping their desert-spirits and whatnots, but since they're not supposed to be playable CA didn't bother with that.
I also assume that the forces are of equal strength here, as they would be in a custom battle. First, I would deploy my force in two equally large groups: The first group is deployed in the back of my deployment zone, and consist of my general and all the infantry; 2/3 of which are axemen, 1/3 hillmen. The second group is deployed further afield, 1/2 moorish raiders and 1/2 desert cavalry.
As the battle starts, I approach the most cavalry-heavy flank of the enemy with my cavalry vanguard. As the arrows start to fall down on their ranks, the franks will be forced to send out their cavalry since a frankish hunter couldn't hit a desert horse archer even if he was stuck to a wall 20 metres away. I avoid combat and fan out, drawing the better part of the enemy cavalry away from the main body of their army, which I assume consists of heavy frankish infantry. Now i turn my cavalry regiments, including the HA, and charge the enemy cavalry from all directions. Even if there are nobles or paladins among them, outflanking, outnumbering and the surprising effectiveness of moorish raiders in prolonged melees WILL rout and kill the frankish cavalry.
Now I can safely return the cavalry to my infantry line and await the remaining franks. As you said berbers are a joke against franks but now:
1) I have the advantage on the flanks.
2) My axemen ignore the franks' heavy armor. So does the frankish axe heerbann but I have none to ignore!
3) By now the enemy units are a lot more tired than mine.
...but that's just against the computer. Against a human victory can never be certain.
coalition
01-22-2009, 21:37
You force me to describe in detail how I would go about defeating a frankish army with the berbers.
First things first, the berbers really are christian! Actually I think only the berbers in Tingi were christian, the rest were still worshiping their desert-spirits and whatnots, but since they're not supposed to be playable CA didn't bother with that.
I also assume that the forces are of equal strength here, as they would be in a custom battle. First, I would deploy my force in two equally large groups: The first group is deployed in the back of my deployment zone, and consist of my general and all the infantry; 2/3 of which are axemen, 1/3 hillmen. The second group is deployed further afield, 1/2 moorish raiders and 1/2 desert cavalry.
As the battle starts, I approach the most cavalry-heavy flank of the enemy with my cavalry vanguard. As the arrows start to fall down on their ranks, the franks will be forced to send out their cavalry since a frankish hunter couldn't hit a desert horse archer even if he was stuck to a wall 20 metres away. I avoid combat and fan out, drawing the better part of the enemy cavalry away from the main body of their army, which I assume consists of heavy frankish infantry. Now i turn my cavalry regiments, including the HA, and charge the enemy cavalry from all directions. Even if there are nobles or paladins among them, outflanking, outnumbering and the surprising effectiveness of moorish raiders in prolonged melees WILL rout and kill the frankish cavalry.
Now I can safely return the cavalry to my infantry line and await the remaining franks. As you said berbers are a joke against franks but now:
1) I have the advantage on the flanks.
2) My axemen ignore the franks' heavy armor. So does the frankish axe heerbann but I have none to ignore!
3) By now the enemy units are a lot more tired than mine.
...but that's just against the computer. Against a human victory can never be certain.
Overwhelming the A.I is one of the ways to achieve victory, providing your troops are above Militia level. Your stragety appears to be effective against armies made of Infantry (That's not to say that there is no cavarly). Berbers do have sucky cavarly too, I mean look at their General stats!
Look closely at the names of the Berber characters, you will find out that they have Muslim names.
Also in a city battle, your in big trouble seeing you cannot use the Cavarly charge advantage.
Roslagii Keel
01-23-2009, 14:59
I see you are quite adamant in your conception of the Berbers as a "sucky" faction, so I will not labour further upon the subject. Regarding the fact that Berbers have muslim names, I think it would be quite difficult to find written sources mentioning authentic north african names from the 4th to 5th centuries AD. If the game was historically accurate, the berbers wouldn't be organized enough to constitute a faction. I think they are there to make north africa more challenging for "real" factions to conquer, not because they were an organized nation at the time (which they weren't.) Now I suggest we end this before the moderators find out we're discussing berbers in the franks thread ~;)
Mek Simmur al Ragaski
03-14-2009, 01:07
Well from what I did read (which isn't much, its like midnight and its all blurry, sorry if this offends anyone) most people seem to have either horded and moved out of Germanica, or tried to go north for the Saxons or south to the WRE. I did things slightly differently. First things first, build up an economy. I took the two rebel cities near me, then stopped to regroup. Then from my capital, I struck down at Alemanni, and wiped their armies out within the first turn. Pop goes Alemanni.
The next thing I tried to do was search for anything that wouldn't get me bogged down in an expensive war. I looked and found several things. Firstly, a WRE city gone rebel south of the river, two rebel cities in northern Germanica, and of course other German tribes. I was also inclined to build up forces around my most eastern cities and strike the Burgundi and the other tribe up north, considering there are no stacks in sight and a poorly defended garrison, easy pickings. This is how far I am so far, only a few cities, but my expansion has been fairly rapid considering my old turtle tactics. I never really gave BI a chance when I got it, but I'm really starting to like this game
A Frankish campaign can be the most boring ever if one hordes immediately and proceeds to Gaul. This is however the quickest route to victory as well. On the way one should take out teh Allemani and the Saxons and then settle in Avaricum or Samarobriva from which he can re-conquer all the cities he left behind including Vicus Frankii, not forgeting the ludicrus Londinium just a short ferry trip accross the channel.
The real enjoyment playing the Franks however (as with other factions that can horde) is to play with the iron man rule, not to horde unless one is really taken over in his last settlement by an enemy.
Then the Frankish campaign can be lots of fun, topsy turvy and occasionally even lost.
I took a somewhat different method,seeing the Bungundri and Lombards wanted to go to war with me I happily obliged them,by sending my faction leader on a spree to take there cities,accompanied by numerous Golden band Mercs,Sarmatian cav archers and a unit of levy spearmen,just for the ability to weaken the enemy with jav fire. After a few hairy battles with 2 opoosing faction bodyguards fortunatley one of them was stupid enough to chase my horse archers around the map,while I dealt with the rest of his army, I am finally laying siege to the final lombard city. Just hoping the horde that comes when it falls doesn't go for one of my cities,but harrass the WRE instead and does my capital ever make a profit? so far it's around -2000 in the hole and going futher into debt with every turn..
Agent Miles
12-22-2011, 18:49
Since this is Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion, it just made sense to me that my Franks should become a barbarian horde, invade Rome and well, make total war. As such, the Franks became a horde on turn two after I had wrecked and sold everything worth anything in their homeland.
The horde units gave me enough for four stacks, each with a family member. Two of the stacks got mostly horde swordsmen and archers for taking settlements and the other two stacks got the horde spearmen and cavalry for support. I then split these into two groups each with a stack for siege and support.
I crossed the Rhine and besieged the WRE settlement to the immediate west. Two stacks make the siege easy to auto-calc, as you have overwhelming numbers, so the losses were minor. While the first group built siege equipment the other group went south with the spy as scout. I sacked the first settlement and continued to sack my way into Italy, plundering Arles, Massilia and Mediolanum as well. Next, I built forts at the three bridges and one bottleneck leading into Italy south and west of Mediolanum and destroyed any WRE forces wandering around. The forts were manned with non-horde units, so that these garrisons would not be disbanded. Finally I set up my attacks and in one turn occupied Ravenna and exterminated Rome and Tarentum.
I quickly built a non-horde army and took Syracuse, Carthage and Caralis and retook Mediolanum and Massilia. I added a few more forts at bridges and bottlenecks which gave me a rich, secure base of operations that supports several strong field armies. Each army consists of a general, six spearman, two sword herbanns, six hunters, four Noble cavalry and an Onager, all with silver weapons and armor and three or more levels of experience. So equipped, all of the units performed adequately.
As a side note, I made Caralis Christian so that I could build Paladins there. This takes about a dozen turns and a good sized garrison. By the time the necessary buildings are done the population is Christian. This doesn’t interfere with the rest of my Pagan Empire since it is on an island.
The Goths arrived, but cannot negotiate my outer perimeter of forts (I destroyed the one stack that did). I’ve taken Lepsis Magna and will conquer the Berbers. I can then take Spain and the three target provinces in Gaul that I need for victory. This strategy avoids conflict with the other hordes that wander around northern Europa.
Vincent Butler
05-20-2014, 02:13
Alemanni aren't worth going after, one more target for Romans, can't really retrain units, not in good money spot.
May I have some help with this faction? I've four settlements at this moment: the capital, Vicus Francorum, and Campus Frisius, Campus Chattium, Campus Burgundiorum. Why the hell the capital always goes down economically? When I had just Vicus, along with Chattium, it started to go down, then I took Frisius and finances went positive, then, after 4-5 turns, down again. So I took Burgundiorum and everything OK.
I've built economic structures, no way... furthermore, Chattium and Frisius are always in revolt. I've made them revolt and then annihilated all the population, within 6-7 turns they've already the red face.
Vincent Butler
10-01-2014, 06:24
WRE is Christian, Franks are pagan. That is a problem. Try for one or the other religion, put pagan family members in pagan towns and Christians in Christian towns. I don't attack Rome right away, I go after the Saxons, and I don't like to go for the rebels to the east, though I usually do. Fight either WRE or WRER, one or the other.
Hi Vincent, you came here too, thanks a lot.:bow:
That problem has been almost fixed, as I converted to Christianity. Listen, now that my whole empire has passed to Christianity, why when I accept new family members they're still pagan?
Vincent Butler
10-01-2014, 21:02
Those rebels who refuse to convert? You could always reject the pagan ones. I guess you would have to look at what percentage of the population of that region where he is is pagan vs Christian. Christianity may be more dominant, but there may still be pagans around. I usually end up with more Pagan. I guess I can control that with churches and such, best done after exterminating. If I don't exterminate, I go with what is predominant. Christianity is nice because with the Franks, you get the Paladin. Also, as I am a Christian, I would prefer that my empire is Christian, even if it is just a game.
Vincent Butler
01-05-2018, 01:36
So I am starting into BI again. Went with the Franks. Do I attack WRE right off the bat? I think so, because they attack you quickly anyway, even though they like to ally at the start. It seems like you are supposed to go after the two rebel towns to the east, but I don't think that is a good idea. Money being the problem.
Or do you attack those towns, and fortify your first town? I think if it is strong Rome will not bother you. Your units can handle theirs on the wall, once you get the Heerbann. Of course, if they have many Comitatenses, you will need lots of Heerbann, since their main infantry unit is an excellent sword unit.
Vincent Butler
01-10-2018, 22:05
So I am starting into BI again. Went with the Franks. Do I attack WRE right off the bat? I think so, because they attack you quickly anyway, even though they like to ally at the start. It seems like you are supposed to go after the two rebel towns to the east, but I don't think that is a good idea. Money being the problem.
Or do you attack those towns, and fortify your first town? I think if it is strong Rome will not bother you. Your units can handle theirs on the wall, once you get the Heerbann. Of course, if they have many Comitatenses, you will need lots of Heerbann, since their main infantry unit is an excellent sword unit.
So I figured out a little strategy. Put Campus Francii to very high taxes, and disband your peasants. Disbanding the peasants will put your population enough to upgrade your city. Try to get map info from WRE, they will offer an alliance; take it. Build a couple of archers and a cav unit, and go after Campus Chatii, and put it to very high taxes. Campus Frisii will put you at odds with Rome too quickly. Let Rome take it, then let it rebel and take out the WRER and crank the taxes up there too. Rome will not bother you as much, it seems. The Saxons are your next target.
If you don't value alliances, you could go after Colonia Agrippina, I don't break alliances so I am going after the Saxons instead. My spy in Colonia Agrippina is not causing a rebellion. Because I know Rome will attack me at the drop of a hat if Campus Francii is weak, I have no problems undermining them, though I will not violate an alliance directly. Their city is upgraded enough to build good units, so I can retrain quickly and figure out my next target. I am surprised Rome has not attacked yet.
I think the computer is giving the Saxons money. They have one settlement, yet were able to upgrade their town, to the level it has a Hundredmen Hall, despite having lots of family members. Well, not anymore. Four attacked Campus Chatii, three did not survive and the fourth fled like a frightened goat.
The reason for cranking up the taxes is to compensate for all the family members you will get, it seems you get a lot in a short amount of time so your finances go south quickly.
Vincent Butler
01-12-2018, 10:07
So an update. Got up to 50,000 denarii, am a bit lower now since Celts came across channel to attack Samarobriva. Eastern Empire is gone (Sassanids and Sarmatians), and in the same turn the ERER were wiped out, so no ERE anymore. Yes, I know that if the ERE gets wiped out, the ERER become the ERE, but both are destroyed. The WRE got wiped out, the Lombardi finished them off, and the WRER rebels are now the WRE. I wiped the Goths out, Ostrogoths popped up and were wiped out in the same turn. Romano British were wiped out by Celts, Slavs are still around, in, guess where?...Campus Iazyges! Where all hordes go, for some reason.:confused:
Am about to cross the channel to deal with the Celts. Francisca Heerbann are awesome, those franciscas wipe out enemy formations. Also, the Paladin Bodyguards are virtually invincible. Are the Axe Heerbann's only advantage over the Sword Heerbann the lower upkeep? They cost the same, but the AH are 20 lower upkeep, and have I think it is 2 less defense. Is there any reason to field AH in addition to the SH, other than upkeep (and to mix up my units a little bit)?
If I recall correctly, axes get the armour-piercing attribute, which halves the effect of enemy armour.
Vincent Butler
01-12-2018, 19:13
If I recall correctly, axes get the armour-piercing attribute, which halves the effect of enemy armour.
I thought it might be that, but I checked the export_descr_unit file, and the axes of the Axe Heerbann do not get the ap attribute. The thrown Franciscas of the Francisca Heerbann are ap, as are the Chosen Axemen of the Saxons and Alemanni. It looks like the same with regular RTW, the hand axes (Germania/Scythia axemen, Desert Axemen) are not ap, but the two-handed axes and axe-armed cavalry are.
Unless someone informs me about any advantage, right now I am fielding more Sword Heerbann where I am likely to face better units (against Rome or hordes), and Axe Heerbann where I will face worse units or deeper in my territories where I am less likely to come under attack. AH are still plenty good enough to handle most things thrown at them anyway. Against units like Steppe Horde Chosen Warriors or Comitatenses or such units, I want the extra defense of the SH.
I thought it might be that, but I checked the export_descr_unit file, and the axes of the Axe Heerbann do not get the ap attribute. The thrown Franciscas of the Francisca Heerbann are ap, as are the Chosen Axemen of the Saxons and Alemanni. It looks like the same with regular RTW, the hand axes (Germania/Scythia axemen, Desert Axemen) are not ap, but the two-handed axes and axe-armed cavalry are.
Oh, right. Guess I was thinking of M:TW. If that's the case, then there is indeed no advantage to Axe Heerbann.
Vincent Butler
01-13-2018, 20:19
Oh, right. Guess I was thinking of M:TW. If that's the case, then there is indeed no advantage to Axe Heerbann.
I guess if you want cheaper upkeep, and aren't worried about the two-defense differential. That difference of 20 upkeep can add up, as your empire grows. Of course, as your empire grows, money should be less of a concern.
So my campaign went south; fortunately I had two save points, and one was at a point where I was still doing fairly well. I use two save points because I have had campaigns where the file got corrupted and I could not open them again. So it is not great, but better. Instead of going after the Celts like I did (who had attacked me but then keep asking for a ceasefire, which I take because I am not going after them right now and need the money), I went after the Lombardi in Augusta Treverorum.
The Vandals are annoying, they have Spain, so they have numerous large armies. I need Burdigala, but am rebuilding my army to go after it. Arles, where my army is stationed, keeps coming under siege, so it is taking a while to reform the army.
So far, my eastern border is secure, though the Sassanids are getting closer. Not looking forward to that, but at least my infantry is much better than theirs, and most fighting will be done in the cities, so on walls. Yeah, I'm winning those fights.
So overall, I like my strategy. It is a good base strategy, the finer points need to be worked out.
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