The Official KoD thread *SPOILERS* [Archive]

SMZ

11-01-2005, 20:20

A few things I noticed:

1. The Band of the Red Hand has changed a good bit with grenade throwing sling-staff men, fast cranking crossbows, flares and more...

2. We got our first up close look at Ogier weapons, in both the Westland variety and the Gardeners.

3. We know to mess with the numbers on effectiveness of projectiles a good bit, it's been remarked in RTW that archers can use every arrow and hardly impact a unit; in WoT however units have repeatedly been shown to get slaughtered to the man by the clever use of projectiles

4. We now know about possible emerging factions like Manetheren and The Golden Crane. We knew people were talking about Perrin raising Manetheren for a while, but now we see how widespread that talk and feeling had gotten. And we can be sure that The Golden Crane is flying by the end of this book.

One note... we should keep things we noticed to things that happened in this book. This mod will be done long before the next book or Guide comes out... so speculation on Mat's "dragons" for instace is no good. We can't include cannon yet... because they don't exist... Aludra may die for all we know...

Oh, that reminds me: We saw a train too! :)

Steppe Merc

11-01-2005, 20:47

I loved it, because it gives a lot more possibelties for horse archer units. Between the Domani, the Tarbon guys fighting for the Seachaen, the Band of the Red Hand, not to mention the Saladaens and the rest of the Borderlands, I think at least one lancer with a bow unit is needed. :charge:

And I'd love to see a a Golden Crane faction, or at least a rebel unit or mercanary unit or something (given the large amount of Malkieri figthing for Borderlanders).

One thing I was confused about. Did Perrin end up being a vassal to the Seachean? He offered it, I know, but when they parted ways the general didn't really make any mention of it.

All in all, deffiently the best in the series for a long time.

SMZ

11-02-2005, 03:26

Barid

11-02-2005, 06:34

yeah... that was a bit confusing... because he didn't really submit to the Seanchan... his offer wasn't lordship of the Two Rivers, but more along the lines of refraining from raising Manetheren's banner in opposition to the Seanchan...

so if the Seanchan never make it that far... as seems likely given Elayne being in Andor with popular support in Cairhein and baby momma to the Dragon freakin Reborn... then I think his offer is considered null and void...

-------

another cool thing I noticed - we got our first look at a Sharan :)

Ok... A Sharan? Did I miss something? Noal? Hell my asstuteness is questionable sometimes... hell I still think it was Semirhage who killed Asmodean.... well, that was my first thought anyway.

A Manethran faction would be cool though.

SMZ

11-02-2005, 09:00

yep, yep - we only see the Sharan for a brief moment however...

When Rand goes to the inn in Tear... as he is entering he hears a fellow with dark skin and tight, curly hair using an "odd musical accent" while talking about obtaining andberry leaves for silk worms he has. The fellow is speaking haltingly... almost as if he was trying to use a language he isn't familiar with :) My money says it's a Sharan. Because a few seconds later, Alivia hears the familiar "drawling accent" of Seanchan and goes into shock. So a fellow using a strange accent and with dark skin has to be either Sea Folk, Seanchan, Sharan or from the Land of Madmen.

Madmen are presumbably madmen. Sea Folk have familiar accents by this time as do Seanchan. Sharans on the other hand do not, AND Shara is the source for silk, and thus silk worms. :)

McFungos

11-02-2005, 09:27

For those who thought that without Mat, the Band would not continue his reforms, they were wrong.

The 4.000 fast reloading crossbows prove it.

I'm relauching the debate : Is the Band an Elite Unit ?
~D

SMZ

11-02-2005, 17:58

Well, I suppose you get the right to brag on yourself a bit...

Don't do too much, or I'll find a technicality to argue about it, just for principal - lol.

And it would appear, that the Band units will indeed be elite level units. We've got grenade throwing sling-staffs, fast-cranking crossbows and horse archers/lancers... Too bad we didn't get a chance to see the rest of the foot... the pikemen may have undergone changes too... Anything else you guys noticed about the Band?

Steppe Merc

11-02-2005, 20:36

I wanted to know how that King guy betrayed them, or whatever.

Oh, I did notice them talking about their core of builders (or something). Mabye they can build watchtowers/forts easier or cheaper (if possible)? Obviously this would have to be for the entire Dragon faciton, but...

Andreas

11-02-2005, 20:51

Masons you mean...we cannot do that, as far as I know...

And the crossbowmen ae still not elire really, they have a techincal lead, and are in good order, better then msot common units, but they will not be better then for example aiel, or generals unit. Somewhere in the middle there....

McFungos

11-02-2005, 21:15

My estimation

A soldier of the Band = 1.2 to 1.3 common soldier

For comparaison :

A Death Guard = 5 to 6 commons soldiers

The bands units deserve the Hardy trait and big moral boost.

Hardy because the Band can make multiples raids and ambushes during a same night.

Big moral because the Band is often outnumbered in tactical and surendered in strategic

They aren't the Aiel sure but they are above any standard unit and by a fair margin.

:bow:

SMZ

11-03-2005, 06:10

The masons and such the Band has along would mostly be a part of their movement bonus. Which that just comes as a trait with Mat or Talmanes or whoever. We'll prolly give em the trait "Engineers Corps" or something and give a siege building bonus and movement bonus from them building bridges and whatnot...

As far as to how the King betrayed them... I would guess that after putting them to use in getting the country under his control he probably wanted a nice resounding victory to put on his record and secure his status as a popular hero. So he prolly asked the Band to do something with the intent of annihilating them, thus making himself popular and erasing all evidence of the ploy he had used on the nobles... Just guesswork, but that's how I would see it...

I agree with Andreas and McFungos... The Band is to normal soldiers as Aiel are to The Band... Given their technology advantage however they'll likely be some of the most valued troops. We're going to have to make their costs high to balance it. The grenades and fast-cranking put them on the path toward Aes Sedai like power... can't have a player with an entire army of Band soldiers...

McFungos

11-03-2005, 09:27

The king Rheodran made a secret dealing with the Band and Talmanes.

Rheodran paid the Band to stay in Murandy to pose as a potential threat while Rheodran gather support against the Band.

The Band leaved Murandy just before king Rheodran was ready to strike them.

It's similar to the deal between Elayne et the Borderlanders army in Andor save the money part.
:bow:

SMZ

11-03-2005, 10:07

yeah - but Rheodran didn't keep his side of the bargain completely... as Talmanes says when he meets Mat. That's why the Band is scattered a bit, because they had to quick march their way out of Murandy to avoid getting backstabbed

Steppe Merc

11-04-2005, 23:58

Oh, and you guys need to have a Zebra mount. Mabye for just the general, or something, but you need at least one Zebra! ~D

SMZ

11-05-2005, 00:30

lol - razors can't be zebras... I don't care what anybody says

Steppe Merc

11-05-2005, 00:48

lol - razors can't be zebras... I don't care what anybody says
What? Why not? The description is exactly matching a zebra. You don't get horses with straight white and black stripes. You can get paliminos, but not like that.

Besides, there are elephants, lions, why not zebras?

SMZ

11-05-2005, 05:21

well - one: zebras are the size of donkeys and this horse was described as being "17 hands" I think... two: zebras for all intents and purposes cannot be domesticated - they just aren't trainable...

iunno... might be some kind of zebra-horse hybrid creature... which would explain their rarity... since the offspring would be sterile

Steppe Merc

11-05-2005, 16:14

Hmm, your right, zebras are only 11-13 hands high, I read...
Though perhaps in the Wheel of Time world, they evolved to be bigger? ~;)

Seriously, I really can't imagine having a horse with that sort of patterns, nor the Domani being so protective of it if it was a normal horse...

Regardless, I would really want to see a Domani general on a razor. ~;)

Andreas

11-06-2005, 10:07

They will have it...

And it's not a zebra, those have vertical lines IIRC, where the razor has horzontal, and the razors line are stright where the zebras are all wavy. They are just very good horse with a cool look.

Steppe Merc

11-06-2005, 21:27

It was horizontal lines? Oh, ok, then they aren't zebras. But they are cool, and I'm glad they will be in. ~D

SMZ

11-10-2005, 17:41

I'm not sure if they're horizontal or verticle... the picture I got in my mind was horizontal at first tho... I don't think Jordan specifically said - unless it's in a interview or book signing quote somewhere?

how I pictured it was:

b=black, w=white

bbbbbbbbbbwwwwwww
wwwwwwbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbwwwwwwwww
wwwwbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbwwwwwwwwwww
wwbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bwwwwwwwwwwwww

-------

It was interesting to learn that the female Choedan Khal melted - previously I'd been assuming that Rand would go looking for another access key (I thought only the key had melted) but with the sa'angreal gone as well... that shrinks Rand's options considerably... maybe Egwene will provide the white rod from the Tower? still, that's a poor substitute...

Steppe Merc

11-10-2005, 18:38

Yeah, with those Sea Folk land people (can't rember there name) all commiting suicide. Did the male version melt as well? I can't remember...
And I was glad there wasn't much emphasis on the Aes Sedai this one, they are so boring to me.

I wonder how Logain will end up serving Rand, or if he betrays him (how does he get his glory?). And what was with Rand's headaches? Could it mean the taint is back? But then, the Aes Sedai who bonded the Ashaman still seem to think its clean.

SMZ

11-10-2005, 19:16

The male version is fine as far as we know... it's just when you're talking about taking on the The Dark One, Sightblinder, etc, etc, The Great Lord of the Dark himself... using both Choedan Khal while linked would've been a big help from any angle we can think of right now... the next most powerful female sa'angreal we know of is that rod in the tower. But like seven Aes Sedai linked while using that had a hard time just fixing Mat's dagger attachment! I can't imagine how much good it'll do against the Dark One.

I think Logain might end up being the next Tamyrlin... or whatever equivalent exists after the Last Battle. I have a feeling Rand is going to get burned out at Tarmon Gaidan.

I think Rand's headaches are another side effect of the balefire streams crossing with Moridin. The two are becoming one somehow... I think Rand is attuned to the True Power somehow now - just he can't access it because the Dark One doesn't grant it. Moridin feels quesy whenever Rand uses the One Power - I think there's an allergic reaction so to speak to using the One Power after prolonged True Power usage. And I think Rand is picking up those effects thru his bond with Moridin.

Andreas

11-10-2005, 22:48

You think that about the TP? And who made you think that???:P

And the male should be fine, the ter'angreal is, and I think they reflect each other...

And rand's sickness has nothing with the taint to do... (From Jordan).

And it says horizontal, with the lines straight as if cut with razors.

(It's ayamar:P)

Edit: A nice sumup of the ituralde attack, if you are interested: http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=268069

SMZ

11-11-2005, 00:24

lol - did I get that from you? I know we talked about it... I can't remember what thoughts are my own and things I picked up elsewhere anymore...

heh - word - credit Andreas with the Rand-Moridin relationship

and that's a nice link there :)

SMZ

11-11-2005, 23:59

Actually, come to think of it... "stripes" is an uncommon way to refer to horizontal lines. Anytime somebody says "stripes" I think it's common to think of verticle lines... and most animals that have "stripes" have verticle lines. ie: tiger stripes, zebra stripes, antelope stripes...

A horizontal series of lines would probably be called "bands".

I'm really uncertain of how that horse looks in Jordan's mind - what did you base your interpretation off of Andreas? I prolly missed something...

I'm kinda liking my idea that the razor is a zebra/horse hybrid though. :)

EDIT: Now that I just said it again - look at this: zebra/horse... "ra-hor" ... hmm... we've all seen Jordan's penchant for reinventing words from the real world... Armageddon = Tarmon Gaidan, etc, etc

I hereby submit that the "razor" is a zebra/horse hybrid and Jordan got the name by combining the two. Then he thought up the clever little "lines like they're sliced by a razor" bit as a better way of explaining the name than his actual method.

Steppe Merc

11-12-2005, 00:24

Possibly. However, if you type in "zorse" into google, you'll see that sometimes the horse is brown (following the horse). I suppose it depends if the zebra or horse is the mother, and the color of the horse.

But the zorse is more likely than a special horse, in my mind. ~;)

CrownOfSwords

11-12-2005, 10:32

Yeah there are a lot of great developments in KOD, I finally feel like the books are getting along again. As for the band being an elite unit I dont think so, I think they should have a huge morale boost for they always believe they will win no matter the odds with Mat at the command, they should be able to hide anywhere which will be great for setting up crossbowman ambushes like Mat does, this is due to their new green armor. The thing thats bugging me is how could we implement the true power of crossbows into RTW, the games only missile really is bows and crossbows are much much more powerful than bows able to punch through armor and the sort, I think to show their damage you would almost want to overwrite javelinmen possibly, this is something to discuss and for someone to test.

As far as we know now Mat may have sealed the Seachan to Rand, he's the prince of ravens or maybe even now like a king of the Seachan or something we are not really told how that works. Im excited to read about the great stump and loial convincing the ogier to go to the last battle im sure that will be a good passage, we also all now want to know about Lan im curious how many men are going to be following him by the end. Rand finally is making decisions and seems to be preparing for the last battle (by sending Tear's troops to the borderlands)

Another question thats been stirring in my mind - we are told humanities only chance is if Rand is at the last battle right? and even if they still may lose. Well with full strength (including Seachan) how many men can be mustered to the borderlands id guess a few million? so if that can be beaten how many friggen trollocs are there and the dreadlords have yet to show themselves we saw what some what 40 asha'man and aes sedai did to thousands and thousands of trollocs..

Tauron

11-12-2005, 22:32

and the dreadlords have yet to show themselves

Think about what Taim said in the end of the book: Let the lord of chaos rule. (or something like that...)
That same thing was used in some former book by some of the Forsaken... Wouldn't that mean those Taim's men are darkfriends or Taim himself at least?

Antagonist

11-12-2005, 23:50

That epilogue was great, I must say. Very well written.

Regarding the Black Tower, I think it's pretty well established that Mazrim Taim is a Bad Guy. I don't know if you've followed the WoT fan community at all, but for a long time (pretty much from when he first appeared in Lord of Chaos) there was a very popular theory that Mazrim Taim was in fact the Forsaken Demandred, although events in Winter's Heart disproved this. I think it was also Winter's Heart that proved that Gedwyn, Torval, Rochaid and Kisman, the four Asha'man who attacked Rand Al'Thor in the book before that were also all Darkfriends. All four of them were Taim's personal "students" and IIRC it actually explicitly states that Taim ordered them to kill Rand.

Also, I'm pretty sure than in the KoD epilogue all the Asha'man present are laughing (hundreds) which is pretty significant. So basically it's like this: Rand Al'Thor established the Black Tower and oversees it in it's infancy, but once the recruitment really gets up and running he just leaves it all to Taim - I don't think he's even visited there since then. In fact his only contact with the Black Tower seems to be to send for more Asha'man occasionally. He has a few of the earliest Asha'man with him (guys like Narishma and Flinn) and they are loyal to him personally, and maybe a few others like Logain, but the rest of the Asha'man have probably never seen Rand Al'Thor, all they know from the Black Tower is Taim. They may nominally swear allegiance to the Dragon Reborn, but their true loyalty is to the M'Hael, Mazrim Taim. And if Mazrim Taim is a Darkfriend.... No doubt it this will make a very interesting plot thread.

I think that's right. I read KoD recently (duh) but it's been a year or more since I read the rest of the series, so I'm probably a bit rusty.

Antagonist

Steppe Merc

11-13-2005, 01:27

Yeah, Taim is deffinetly a Darkfriend. I don't think he's Demodred as many previously thought, because at the showdown in that haunted city (Shahol Ghul?), he didn't recongnize one of Rand's Ashaman.

He was probably trained by one of the Forsaken though, consider how quickly he picks up on a lot of things.

Andreas

11-13-2005, 20:18

And Jordan has said right out that he is not:)

SMZ

11-14-2005, 23:35

Lord Winter

11-18-2005, 02:02

yeah - that epilogue was very cool - I could picture it so vividly...

Anyone else notice the extra chairs in the meeting of the Forsaken? I think the DO has raised new people to Forsaken level and only Moridin knows this. Everything else that Moridin does has symbolic meaning, I'm sure the additional chairs are there for a reason

I'm guessing Taim is now one of the "Chosen". Any specualtion as to who else may be?
Problely just taim because only three have been lost beyond the D.O. reach.
Rahivin and Be'al and the D.O. just is refuseing to reincarnate Asomondan we guess any way.
Interesting Sammual is still alive or so it seems.

Antagonist

11-18-2005, 02:59

Didn't Jordan go on record (at a convention or a signing or something) and state unambiguously that Sammael was dead? That's what I recall, anyway. I think there's something like that in the various FAQ's around.

Antagonist

Lord Winter

11-18-2005, 03:23

Andreas

11-18-2005, 19:17

Yes, he only said he did not survive Shadar Logoth, not that he isn't ressed IIRC.

Steppe Merc

11-19-2005, 19:13

But wasn't balefire used against him?
Mabye someone pretending to be Sammael was commanding those Trollocs they mentioned. That's what I figured, anyway.

Ashton

11-19-2005, 20:55

I believe RJ has said that if the dark one has advanced warning of balefire which shall take place he can be ready to catch the dying person, also it depends on the amount of balefire used.

If we assumed that the Dark One knows what his chapion knows and does similarly to shadar haron, then we can guess he was ready for it as the 2 flows of balefire combine to hit Sammael if it is Mordin's "lance of balefire whihc hits first we could assume the balefire is week and thus the 2 nessesities for the dark one to save Sammael are there.

Steppe Merc

11-19-2005, 21:49

I never got why Morodin would want to kill Sammael...

Andreas

11-20-2005, 14:27

Nope, it was the Mashadar(sp...?) that killed him. Rand directed his bale to kill the maiden instead, to save her form the above mentioned.

And you do not survive bales, no matter the size of them.

Renly

11-21-2005, 01:08

I just finished KoD earlier today. Few things I've noticed, for one, I read an interview with Jordan where he flat out said we'd found out who killed Asmodean in KoD. Looks like he either forgot or just hadn't thought the whole plot out yet. Also, Jordan said he wouldn't go over 12 books, yet I don't see the series ending in one more book. There's just too much left to happen.

Egwene totally has the tower in the palm of her hand, it's only a matter of time before the rebels take the city.

I also thought that one of the most intriguing cliffhangers was Lan's mission in the Borderlands. He's going to do some damage.

Steppe Merc

11-21-2005, 01:52

Renly

11-21-2005, 02:36

Yeah, but I have a feeling that once Egwene convinces enough sisters to her cause, they'll take Elaida down, maybe even without an assault.

SMZ

11-21-2005, 04:33

Yeah - it's amazing that she has anybody supporting her in such a short time...

The sisters rarely show what they're thinking - but given the amount of support the novices and Accepted are showing - you've got to wonder what is going on in the sisters heads... They're all worried about the decaying situation in the tower with the Ajahs splitting... and the news of Elaidas various bunglings - how many of them are thinking that maybe that "other" Amyrlin might be a better choice... remember it was a sister that compared her to Cadsuane

The Mistress of Novices is a powerful position - and support from her can gather a good backing - Egwene came to power among the rebels with support from their Mistress...

---

If anyone saw something NEW about Asmodean - I wanna know - lol... and I mean NEW... not the same old theories...

---

Personally I'm hoping RJ goes for 13 books. It'll have more symbolism - and let him complete everything nicely... there's still so much to be done

Lord Winter

11-21-2005, 16:16

I understand that RJ has admitted he has to extend the books. As for Asmodean, it wasn't cleared up, unless I missed anything.

As for Egwene, I don't get why they haven't assaulted the Tower. I fail to see how gathering a few novices and Aes Sedai can help make her Aymaril. Surely Gareth will need to assault the Tower, otherwise why is he even there?
Surly he dosn't want too many causulties. You have to relize with tar valon you cant use seige towers and can only asulut the walls above the bridges. It will not be an esay seige.
As for Asmodean maybe he reveiled somthing in the diriction of sermighedge(just a feeling)

Ripipip

11-21-2005, 16:19

But why can´t they will just travel inside the walls at night when nobody is prepered. Surely they would win quite easy?

Steppe Merc

11-21-2005, 19:02

Yeah. Travel inside, slit Elaida's throat (or still her), and any other major leaders, shield or still the rest of the Aes Sedai, and raise Egwene again.

Renly

11-21-2005, 21:09

That would work. But I still feel that Egwene wants a completely non-violent end to the conflict. You can definetly see the Mistress of Novices (Can't remember the name) starting to drift over to Egwene's side, simply because she won't give in.

moreb_benhk

11-22-2005, 22:57

Regardless of whether that worked or not, it would kill a very large number of sisters, and the White Tower cannot afford to lose any more numbers. There is also the possibility that would fail too (however slight), which would definately screw the Tower over. Between the 'negotiations' and the hunt for the Black Ajah and Egwene, I'm thinking a non-violent resolution (heh, atleast for the non-Blacks) of the split can easily be achieved.

Steppe Merc

11-23-2005, 01:40

Well I hate the Aes Sedai, so I'm not that understanding of their plots. ~;)

Andreas

11-23-2005, 09:30

I understand that RJ has admitted he has to extend the books.
I do not think so, since he has said he will make it 3000 pages of that is needed. He says he cannot write to complete books, it will be like splitting a normal book to one part with no real ending, it will just stop.

SMZ

11-23-2005, 18:08

wordems - I hope that he will write such a massive story - that the publishers will have to split it

Andreas

11-23-2005, 20:27

That could cause problems... He seems like wanting to get his way

SMZ

11-23-2005, 20:39

yeah - but it's impossible to print a 3000 page story

it would have to come in leather-bound edition only... and even that would be pushing it...

I just hope he doesn't shove it all in 700 pages... I'm pretty sure the story would suffer

moreb_benhk

11-23-2005, 22:08

Heh. Or maybe they'd just release the last book all at the same time, in ~900 page parts. The publishers would sure love that.

cdaulepp

12-11-2005, 19:55

I wanted to continue a discussion with Andreas from another thread, but since our discussion wasn't about the Campaign Map and since it contains KoD spoilers I thought this would be a good place to continue.

I agree with you that Seanchan can't field 1 million soldiers. I don't think New_Name was saying that either. I'll have to go back and look, but I think he has the Seanchan at roughly 600,000 soldiers by the end of KoD. That includes all the Seanchan native troops along with all of the conscripts they've had join from Tarabon, Almoth Plain, Amador, and Altara in the past couple years.

I agree with you that 1 million is probably too many soldiers for the Seanchan to have, but I think New_Name's estimate of 600K is about right. How do you feel about 600 K soldiers? (I think the Seanchan have about 250-350 K native soldiers and about 300K enlistees from Randland).

cdaulepp

Werthead

12-11-2005, 21:23

300K from Seanchan sounds about right. Luthair took 300K with him across the Aryth to conquer Seanchan in the first place and that took about 3000 ships, so the descriptions of the hundreds and hundreds of ships at Ebou Dar (and even more at Tanchico according to Winter's Heart), plus the fact that the Forerunners seemed to have 200-500 ships by themselves in Great Hunt would seem to move into that ball park. I'm guessing the settlers came across seperately but shortly afterwards (although this dovetails into the colossal distance from Randland to Seanchan, which is another subject altogether).

Andreas

12-11-2005, 21:38

Uhm, 600K could be fair enough... 300K from seanchan at least... I doubt they would be able to produce 300K westland soldiers in an actual fight though:)

cdaulepp

12-12-2005, 04:11

I was actually leaning towards the Seanchan having more Randland men than regular men if anything.

Do you remember when Banner General Furyk Karede meets with whatever that one Seanchan guy's name is (in KoD) and Karede figures out Mat is heading for the Malvide Gap. That one general tells Furyk Karede that General Chisen's army is 100 K men and half of them are Seanchan. All of the other Seanchan armies that Mat has been beating up in Altara were 90% local conscripts or higher. All along the road from Ebou Dar to northeastern Altara Mat and company see way more locals who have signed up with the Seanchan than they actually see Seanchan men.

The same is true of Rodel Ituralde's portion of the book. The supply camp he raids has only a few Seanchan. The majority are taraboners and Amadicians that signed up with the Seanchan.

I might be wrong, but I always assumed that by now the Seanchan had at least several hundred thousand local enlistees.

Andreas

12-12-2005, 20:32

I think you are right in the nubmer of locals soldiers, but i think when Rand and Ituralde will be able to put up a more solid resistance, many will drop off for them. When they were attacked by a couple of hundred soldiers, they stayed with the senachn, but imagine when i force of hundred of thousands will emerge, wanting to free their native lands. I would surely switch side;)

Steppe Merc

12-15-2005, 01:50

Hmm... keeping on the Seanchan's side and fighting Ashaman or joining Rand and fighting Damane... Not good choices. :san_tongue:

no1jeebes

12-15-2005, 04:22

ok i have a few things...first off, Rand loses his hand!?!!? I didnt see that one coming, no sir lol That sucks so much i dont know if he should have included that in the book... another thing which i thought was really cool was how Lan is riding through the borderlands, seriously the part when nynave is talkin to the malkieri then when they all stood up was the best part of the book lol....another thing is i found this interview with RJ

""""" At one point RJ gave a cryptic message to us about Knife of Dreams. RJ Said:"Something that has previously happened in the series is going to be revealed to have a terrible cost." He added, "When you read it your reaction will be, 'Gasp. How horrible!'" """"

Ok maybe i missed it but what could that be about? i really have no idea lol if u have any idea please tell me

SMZ

12-15-2005, 05:33

The event we all cheered was the cleansing of saidin. The event that was revealed to be the terrible cost was the mass suicide of the Amayar, the people who lived on the islands owned by the Sea Folk. The cleansing caused the female ter'angreal to melt remember? We found out in KoD that the female Choedan Kal had melted as well. The Amayar prophecies told them that this heralded the end of the world... and so they left this mortal coil...

Sad certainly, but seeing as we haven't seen anything of the Amayar before really, it didn't have as much impact with me as Jordan seemed to think it would.

And word @ Rand losing his hand. That was a shocker. I hadn't expected to see him seriously hurt like that... I mean he's had the wounds on his side... but I just always expected those to be healed eventually.

And the rising of the Golden Crane was dope indeed. Nyvanae's sacrafice and deception were the first good things we've seen from her in a long time.

no1jeebes

12-15-2005, 18:18

OOOOhhhh yea I didnt even realize with the Amayar...thanx man

Steppe Merc

12-15-2005, 19:01

I know there were fan speculations that Rand would lose his hand, due to one of Min's fortelling or Egwene's dreams (can't rember which).

Andreas

12-15-2005, 19:50

Yes, Min had one about a red hot iron and stuff... There was a dream too, the first one might not have been fulfilled yet (it was over elayne, a hand but not hers, a red hot iron and something more).

Steppe Merc

12-15-2005, 21:27

Heh, almost posted this in the Campaign map thread, but I stopped myself.
Someone talked about the numbers of Seanchan left behind.

How many troops were on the Seanchan land that were left? I mean if the death of the Emperess and her Heirs plunged everything into total devestation...

Andreas

12-15-2005, 22:16

I would say at least the half of their aremd forces were left their, and with provisory militias that would make between 300K and 500K? Many of them will be dead by now though, IMO...

SMZ

12-16-2005, 00:54

word - with various nobles trying to sieze power... everything probably fell apart down to the provincial level, so you've got a lot of private armies all clashing for one huge reward, the Crystal Throne... has to be a lot of death

On the note about rand's hand - he's supposed to identify with the character of the Fisher in Ishmael's game - I believe I remember the Fisher lacking a hand and being blind... which bodes badly for Rand's eyes... lol

4th Dimension

12-16-2005, 02:08

Well put it simpli now Rand is in contition of a train wreck. He cant properly chanel (partial blindnes and sicknes) he can't use the sword (he got only one hand and basicaly all sword forms rely on two hands).

And yes in Seanchan is happening what happened after AH's death in Randland, war of 100 years.

SMZ

12-16-2005, 04:40

even worse than the war of 100 years, because at least then, there was powerful nobles in charge of things - so you had basically nations fighting each other... since the whole Imperial Court was wiped out... there's no important people left - that means the fighting is every thug who can gather a few men, grasping for power

and word - Rand is in a horrible postition - all of his power is now reliant on the service of others... his own power is negligable

no1jeebes

12-16-2005, 06:23

Holy crap your right...he's gonna have to pull a fast one at the Last Battle lol I hope he does I want to see him go all out and actually be in some sort of shape to do it and not all crapped out like he is now...It's just not fitting for the Dragon Reborn to be like that idk how good of an idea it was to make that all happen to him unless Jordan has something up his sleeve...

4th Dimension

12-16-2005, 23:44

Well either Nynaeve or even Semihage (the best healer ever) is going to heal him (I wander what price would Semihage demand, a private sesion with Rand perhaps :D) or he is going on a suicide mission all or nothing in TG.

Well nobiles were viped out, but field comanders arent. Every army now responds for itself. Sul'dam may get upper hand because they got dammaine and more firepower than else.

Steppe Merc

12-17-2005, 02:53

Well Rand has always thought he would die. And judging by his past interpretations of prophecy, I'm leaning towards that he will survive.

Though it is just a hand... he doesn't need it to channel. I know he has that after afect of Morodin's messing him up, but if he somehow removed that (killing Morodin?) I think he would do a lot better, especially with some sa'angreal.

4th Dimension

12-17-2005, 15:42

Problem with healing Rand is not in lack of strenght of healer (they got Nynaeve) but that no body knows how. Maby only Semihage.

Andreas

12-17-2005, 16:05

What they had not was Damer Flinn, and maybe to reconstruct a hand you would need both male and female healers, and I guess there is no one better at healing then those two, except Semirhage and the Kin woman.

And I also think rand will survive, with only one personality. And that might be an important part of the final battle, to cheat LTT and NOT die, only let him die and not the soul of the dragon.

And I think he can channel with the phantom hand he has now, it is only the image of the motion, not the motion it self that is neede IMO.

Renly

12-17-2005, 21:25

I think he'll get his hand back, some way or another. I remember Rand thinking that he could still his fingers bending when he bent them, but his hand wasn't there. I think he'll have some sort of super 'power-wrought' hand or something.

A little OT, but something I just remembered. I'm very glad Tam got back into the story. I was almost afraid that RJ had forgotten about Tam, and he'd never mention him again. Maybe a reunion with Tam and Rand could spark some new strategies and maybe soften Rand up a bit? Eh?

Andreas

12-17-2005, 22:25

Yes, that about Tam is a idea I have had for some time, a reuniting and a relizing what is important more then saving the world, to save him, if not for himself for the man who took him of a battlefield to keep him alive. And why is that OT? Everything about KOD is alowed here:)

Lord Winter

12-17-2005, 22:34

Tam and rand will probably meet soon. Mat perrin and rand cant stay apart for long the pattern will draw them back together and since Tam is with perrin they should meet before the last battle.

Andreas

12-17-2005, 22:47

That is, if Perrin do not send him back to the two rivers again....

Steppe Merc

12-17-2005, 23:34

Yeah, I'm afraid that Elayne will end up sending some soldiers to kill the Two Rivers "rebellion". Though I think Perrin should rule all of Andor, Elayne was foolish to not accept the support of the superior Aiel, Borderland and Dragonsworn soldiers. Admidetly it did work out alright, but it would have been a lot faster with using real warriors.
Or Rand should marry Elayne and become King of Andor. :san_grin:

Lord Winter

12-17-2005, 23:47

I dont think Elyane would send soliders before perrin was firmly warned, If she attacked she might lose the support of the tower too

Andreas

12-17-2005, 23:47

4th Dimension

12-18-2005, 01:21

Perin is more fittet to cut trough enemy ranks.

But I can imagine Elayne's siege of TR.
It would be un utter fiasco.

Steppe Merc

12-18-2005, 01:50

The problem with accepting their support is that she would appear weak in others eyes, and what would have happened when they left? Just look at the iraq situation, if US left now the country would fall over since there isn't a strong government. It might have taken longer time this, way but now she has the country.
But if she declared for the Dragon, then it wouldn't be an issue especially if the training ground of Dragonsworn continued to be there. Especially if she married Rand or became his consort or something. She would get the support of the other Dragon sworn nations, and instead of having to rely on the Andorian soldiers, she could use Dragonsworn (I doubt Rand wouldn't give her permanet troops, better than the ones she has now).
Besides, she's an Aes Sedai, it will be seen that she had outside help anyway.

And I think Perrin as a leader would be fatal, since he don't want to rule and don't know how to do it. And Faile will get her nation soon enough anyway, now that Davram is dragonsworn and all. And I think perrin is more fitted for a borderland court anyway.
But if her father was cut out of the succession, wouldn't she be as well? Especially with the temper of the Queen of Saladea.

SMZ

12-18-2005, 07:40

the thing being - there is no guarantee that Rand will survive the Last Battle... so pinning your hopes on Dragonsworn may not be a good idea

no1jeebes

12-18-2005, 09:34

Yes, I was also VERY glad that Tam came back into the story, I think he will meet with Rand and let Rand know that he is human and eas him up a bit. I think that Rand will make some sort of power-wrought hand as well and I think RAND will survive Tarmon Gaiden, but the LEWS THERIN inside him will die...Maybe Lews Therin will take control, burn himself out and destroy himself and the dark one in the process, leaving Rand still alive tho....Think about it, if Rand all out died, look how many people would be affected by it...RJ couldn't leave the books like that...Elayne Aviendha Min Mat Perrin Tam and a countless list of other would feel a part of them die well you know what I mean you can't leave a fantasy epic like that lol

"Christ, girls are uselss enough already...What the hell is the point of lesbians?!?!" - Jeebes

trojan_upsetter

12-18-2005, 13:29

i got a feeling rand will die at tarmon gaidon... the dragon has to be reborn again.. the wheel of time turns and etc etc so i think at the end another golden age will come and the two towers will join together as they once were people will live happy for a few hundred years and then it will all come crashing down again.....and about how all rands buddies feel when he dies i think that will give him some space to wrap up the saga and gives us all a bit of closure for the loss of rand... thats just my guess (and rant) anyway..............keep up the good work!!

Steppe Merc

12-18-2005, 15:28

Think about it, if Rand all out died, look how many people would be affected by it...RJ couldn't leave the books like that...Elayne Aviendha Min Mat Perrin Tam and a countless list of other would feel a part of them die well you know what I mean you can't leave a fantasy epic like that lol
You've obviously never read Song of Ice and Fire...

4th Dimension

12-18-2005, 16:07

Yup, but RJ ain't GRRM. RJ kills his characters with great dificulty. So far of main characters only Moraine "died" and was dead for only a couple books.

Rand will probably frein his death. Remember that all agreements with him last only untill TG and only fiew until his death. All those people that Rand made angry will want revenge. So he will have to frein death and continue living peacefuly somewhere, while only fiew people will know that he is alive (Avi, Min, Ely and maby Mat and Perin, and maby Egwene (because of power) or Logain (he is closely tied in that prophesy to live you must die. Egwene dreamed him stepping over Rand's body while knowing that he is alive, he will probably be the witnes of his "death")), so for general population he will be dead, while he is alive, to live you must die.

Or that prophesy os only about dying and rebirth. That is to get reborn you must die.

Steppe Merc

12-19-2005, 01:33

Well he said fantasy. And all great fantasy has major characters dying. Look at Lord of the Rings, I mean Frodo ends up leaving Middle Earth for goodness sakes! Not to mention Boromir, Gandalf (for a little bit), Theoden...

SMZ

12-19-2005, 02:10

Ehh. None of the main, main characters dies. Boromir only had a bit part, and his bad side got shown so that his dying wouldn't impact us as much. Yeah Gandalf does, but as we all know, he comes back. Theoden was a bit part too. If Gimli or Legolas or Aragorn or Merry or Pippen had died... that would've been comparable to how GRRM writes.

His story starts with the Starks. Papa Stark gets killed as a traitor; Mama Stark gets killed and comes back kinda, but none of that 'more beautiful than ever' stuff like Gandalf, she's been trashed; Rob dies at the dinner table; Jon Snow gets exiled; Sansa is a sniveling wreck; Arya has been put thru the wringer too; Bran is crippeled; Rickon is half retarded... and the direwolves which were found so uniquely and I know I thought were almost magical have gotten merked similarly. GRRM has just been brutal to this family. And they were the hereos with the special sign at the beginning.

I know in the chapter where it made it looked like Arya had died... I almost put the books down - it was just crushing. No other author has made me feel like that. No other author treats his characters like that. Nobody is sacred. I know Rand will find a way to win and will live happily ever after with his three wives in some way. I know it. I knew Frodo was going to overcome and vanquish the Dark Lord somehow. I knew it. I don't know what's going to happen in GRRM's world. And that in the end, makes it much more interesting. I just hope it will turn out good.

Lord Winter

12-19-2005, 03:22

SMZ please use spoiler tags for those who are currently reading ASoFaI

SMZ

12-19-2005, 04:53

doh! sorry, sorry and sorry

I haven't read "A Feast for Crows" yet myself, so none of that is from the newest... but I just ruined about a dozen surprises... many apologies Destroyer - I wasn't even thinking - I just got used to thinking of this as the "spoiler" thread...

Lord Winter

12-19-2005, 05:59

Thanks Just wanted you to know
DoH

Steppe Merc

12-20-2005, 20:30

Lord Winter

12-20-2005, 20:44

Heh, I was about to mention more suprises from Feast for Crows, so it's a good thing you mentioned it.

I like Martin's style, it's a lot more realistic. In real life, often the good guys don't win, or they go through hell to do so.
Jordan doesn't kill off enough characters its almost to the point were its unrealistic. Hes only killed off 3 of the forsken. Jorden does not like parting from his characters. The only non forsaken character he has killed off is tyrillen(Sp?) the atlara queen.

Steppe Merc

12-21-2005, 02:29

Yeah, I agree. I get attached to characters, but I get even more attached to the survivors when some are killed off. Like I think Elayne, Egwene, and Nynanve, and... hmm, trying to think of a boring male character so I don't seem sexist.
Problem is, I like Mat, and Rand can't die until the end (if then). Mabye Perrin... then Faile would have to take over the Two Rivers. Or Faile should have died in the Aiel Camp, or ran off and married that tall Aiel fellow (the one that Perrin killed, I think...)

SMZ

12-21-2005, 04:48

Heh, I was about to mention more suprises from Feast for Crows, so it's a good thing you mentioned it.

I like Martin's style, it's a lot more realistic. In real life, often the good guys don't win, or they go through hell to do so.
Word. And just like real life, in Martin's world - it's hard to tell who the "good guys" are sometimes.

There are lots of characters striving for the same goal, or at least opposing ones, and I don't know really who to throw my sympathies in with.

Steppe Merc

12-21-2005, 12:59

Exactly. I mean, is Tyrion really bad? Or even Jaime? Is Stannis good? What about Dany?

cdaulepp

12-21-2005, 16:53

Why are you discussing other books in the KoD thread?

cdaulepp

SMZ

12-21-2005, 17:11

Yeah... lol @ this becoming a GRRM thread...

It was easy to hate Jamie, then karma hit him and now he doesn't seem so bad. The only characters I can really think of that I hate or think as of evil are Gregor (but he got his too), that red woman (ok - we need more info on her), Lady Starks sister (not evil per say - but I hate her anyway), and Theon (ingrate). And even none of them is presented as some wholly evil person.

EDIT: the convo just drifted that way... nobody's been saying anything about KoD for a minute anyway - if anyone's got something to say about KoD, this is still the place tho - just butt in..

Werthead

12-22-2005, 03:01

RJ has killed off a few characters, mainly minor villains: Lord Turak Aladon, Barthanes Damodred, Jaichim Carridin, Eamon Valda, plus a few other ones like Geofram Bornhald, Pedron Niall (before he could carry out his plan to kick the Seanchan back into the ocean) etc. Nothing like GRRM-level though. Steven Erikson also kills off characters in his series (Malazan Book of the Fallen), but has a tendency to bring them back through resurrection, reincarnation, ascendence to godhood etc.

SMZ

12-22-2005, 05:59

Lord Winter

12-22-2005, 06:19

yeah - too many have some sort of cop-out... they always try to show that good is rewarded tangibly and evil is tangibly penalized

Pedron Niall's gotta be the most important character to go down that wasn't up to his neck in the side of the Shadow... He was pretty cool, but I guess the way had to be made for Galad =/
Niall Integer Bornhald and the altarn queen are the only non shadow characters that have died. Now the question is are the characters just going to start dying in the last book. A few boarderlanders are probably going to die when the trollocs break through ( things are starting to look bad for fallies family and Lan:san_sad: )

Andreas

12-22-2005, 16:06

Nah, not really. I would say Ingtar was the first one, and the one I was most sorry to see dead. I know he was a DF, but it fealt like he turned when he met Rand. Also, a lot of Aes Sedai has died (one at the cleansing), an Aiel wise one, dreamwalker, and soem minor importantes (he kills of maidens easily:)). But still, no major guys. I was hoping for the death of Lan in this, book I had heard he would die, it would have been nice...

Antagonist

12-22-2005, 18:09

Ingtar Shinowa (the Shienarian) was quite important, I was sorry to see him die. And quite a lot of Aes Sedai have bitten the dust too at some point or other. Off hand I particularly remember Anaiya, I think she is killed in CoT. Not really an important character as far as the narrative is concerned, but she always seemed like an extremely nice person (not at all typical of Aes Sedai IMO, most of them could be called "good" maybe, but very few "nice" or "pleasant" to outsiders) and I was saddened when it was mentioned that she had been assassinated. Quite a few Aiel, too, and there are a couple of other good characters who died, like Herid Fel the philosopher.

I do agree that Jordan could stand to be a bit less protective of the main characters though, it's becoming really noticable to me recently (especially in comparison with things like ASOIAF) and it kind of saps some of the tension out of the narrative. I was actually hoping that Rand's meeting with the Seanchant (Semhirage's trap) would go badly for him and he'd be captured by the Forsaken, I was actually disappointed that she was dealt with so easily (except for the hand thing)

Antagonist

EDIT: ....*cough* I kind of left this thread open in a tab for several hours before I had time to reply, didn't think to refresh it, Andreas pointed out most of what I had to say...

4th Dimension

12-22-2005, 19:12

If Lan had died it would have been the end of the world, a new Breaking will begin because Nynaeve would go postal and kill everything in sight. Ah if she only snaped in presence of enemy more.

Oh I too liked Pedron Nial a lot. He is one of rare male characters who realy thinks with his head

Steppe Merc

12-22-2005, 20:31

I liked Nial, even though I hate the Whitecloaks.

And they shouldn't kill Lan, he's actually interesting. Like I said, kill the annoying ones. And I vote that Rand should die, and Logain becomes Dragon. :san_grin:

4th Dimension

12-23-2005, 14:02

Rand should live but should be sent to the Land of madmen. A madmen to rule madmen.

Antagonist

12-23-2005, 18:47

I kept hoping Cadsuane would die. I don't know why, but characters in her approximate mold (vaguely omniscient matriarchs who are powerful magic-users and are constantly sticking their noses into all the other characters' affairs) show up quite a lot in fantasy novels and for some reason I have developed an irrational dislike for them.

Antagonist

Andreas

12-23-2005, 19:41

Well, I like Lan too, the reason I would have liked him dying would be that it would have moved some plots, I think. I thik Radn would have felt forced to do something, and maybe others too. What happend now was nice though. I would not have been sad to see the death of Perrin, or Min...

4th Dimension

12-24-2005, 00:26

Somewhere it is written taht lot of people say Cadsuande will live as long as there are adventures. So there are two ways of her death.

1. Glorious hero death including mountains of dead Troloc around her and fiw Dreadlords, while holding some strategic point, or while saving Rand.
2. She will live to see world setteled after TG, rebilding of Towers ect. An after all taht finishes she will die as a relict of a time long gone.

Renly

12-26-2005, 01:50

Or Faile should have died in the Aiel Camp, or ran off and married that tall Aiel fellow (the one that Perrin killed, I think...)

I was thinking about that when I was reading. Perrin just sniped that guy and he was never mentioned again. I thought that he played a bigger role than that and was expecting a little more dramatic showdown.

4th Dimension

12-26-2005, 15:38

If you haven't yet noticed RJ has significaly boosted the speed of the story. If that Aiel hadn't died there he would take another 100 pages of book at least.
Remember how RJ just pulled Avieinda out of Cyemlin, that's because he had to reduce the number of characters and with that descriptions or he would never end it.

Orb

12-31-2005, 23:36

Read KoD today. I noticed how he sped it up too much but I think it would be a lot more focused to simply kill off most of the Aes Sedai by getting the rebels to attack the tower or the blacks to attempt to seize the tower.

Steppe Merc

01-01-2006, 17:11

The Blacks seizing the tower would be difficult, if only because of the investigation into them and the fact that what's her name is no longer the Keeper. I can imagine them trying to do so in juction with the rebel attack, though...

4th Dimension

01-02-2006, 00:12

Yes and if they sieze the tower that would mean disposing Elaida which will shurely give room for rebels to act. It is in Forsaken's interest for Tower to remain broken. Part of Let the Lord of Chaos rule plan

Myrddraal

01-03-2006, 04:13

Guys, what about Herid Fel? What about VANDENE! She died so suddenly, that shocked me to the bones. Vandene to me seemed unstoppable, its just that her character made me think that she would never end. That chapter really made me sit up. "A present from Aldeas"

I think Rand will survive the last battle, but I also think he will die shortly afterwards, probably in hiding. Avienda, Min and Elayne will all outlive him, remember mins viewing of three women in black mourning clothes attending Rands funeral.

And poor old Aiel guy. It was so bad when Perrin took him down, why? because the Aiel guy let him. The Aiel guy just let Perrin kill him so that he didn't have to kill Perrin. Remember, he hesitates when Faile calls out to Perrin, and thats long enough for Perrins hammer to smash him.

Taim is most definately a Darkfriend. Its basically confirmed in the earlier books, and if his special 'students' in his palace aren't darkfriends as well, I'll eat my hat. Taim says: "Remember the old saying: Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

If you remember in the book Lord of Chaos, those are the exact words of the instruction the DO gives to the forsaken. And ALL the ashaman laugh, every last one of them. I think that Logain mentiones that the only people who wear the Dragon who aren't Taims personal 'students' are those Rand has raised, and Logain, probably because Taim couldn't get away with not raising someone so skilled in the power as Logain. The Dreadlords aren't hiding in the blight or anything, they're biding their time in the Black Tower...

A very good read. 3000 pages eh, well it had better be that long if he's going to limit the books. Tairmon Gaidon has so much potential. Why? Because RJ has written 11 books. He's had so much time to develop the culture and the background of the world, and when the world rides to Tairmon Gaidon, all those cultures will ride together. How awesome could it be.....

Now listen to this theory. I subscribe 100% to this one.

Remember when Rand takes Caemlyn from Rahvin. Some time after that in the Royal Palace, Taim is brought to him, and Taim brings with him a gift to try to prove his allegiance. He brings one of the Seals on the DO's prison. When Rand has it in his hand, Lews Therin almost takes over completely, and then you have the scene with Rand holding the seal above his head, everyone else in the room trying to hold his arms in place, screaming: BREAK THE SEALS, BREAK THE SEALS.

Maybe Lews Therin isn't mad at all, maybe the things he does which seem completely mad are actually the way to go. Remember, Lews was not mad when he died.

Herid Fel gets killed because of his discussions with Rand. Herid Fel finds out something important, and dies for it. Just before he dies, he sends Rand a note, saying don't bring min because she's too pretty, he must speak with him. Its something about clearing away the rubble before you can rebuild.

The Seals on the DO's prison are weakening, but the weaker the get, the more the world gets screwed. Remember that Arangar and Osangar are the names of duelling knives covered in poison, a game that became popular in the buildup to the War of Shadow in the AoL, when the bore existed, but the DO hadn't revealed himself yet. That was the DO touching the world. Think of the arsons in Caemlyn. Elayne is surprised that the arson attacks do not diminish with the end of the siege. Personally I think the DO is doing more than making the world shift and the dead walk, he's changing the way men think too. People who are more inclined towards bad deeds are committing them. How long before people are duelling in the streets with poisoned daggers? Rand can't wait for the last battle, or humanity may no longer be strong enough to resist.

Have you ever thought about what will happen at the Las Battle to the DO's prison. Its assumed that the bore will not be resealed, but completely fixed, restored to the way it was when the creator made it. How the hell is Rand supposed to do that? He's not the creator, he can't make the prison as well as the creator did, so how will it work? Now this is where the really clever theory kicks in.

Remember the description of the boring into the darkones prison in the AoL. Well the theory goes something like this: The people in the university (i.e. Lanfear, thought they had detected a new source of power, one that both men and women could use. That power was the True Power, the power of the Dark One. The bore is a weave of the one power, woven by the people of that university of the AoL. Nobody knew at the time how it happened, except that afterwards there is a massive war, Aes Sedai (both men and women) on both sides, and the Dark One touching the world. Massive Saangreal are built to fight the Dark One, but Lews Therin comes up with a daring plan to seal the DO's prison. The female Aes Sedai object, saying that the plan is foolish, and they should use the two statue Saangreal to fight the DO. The female Aes Sedai boycotte the plan, and Lews Therin gives up his plan, as he thinks he will need women in circles to place the seals on the DO's prison.

The Saangreal get lost in terrain now occupied by the Shadow, and Lews Therin decides to carry out his plan without the women, resulting with the taint, and the 7 seals as we know them.

That much comes straight from the history, its not theory at all. The only theory in there which isn't confirmed is that the bore is in fact not a 'hole' in the DO's prison, but in fact a weave of the one power that allows the DO to touch the world.

This is the nifty bit: The Seals are the rubble, which must be cleared away before you can rebuild. Rand will start the last battle, not the Dark One. Rand will smash the seals, and they will battle to undo the weave which is the bore. They will succeed of course, but how?

I think this theory has hit the nail on the head, and to be honest, I can't wait :evilgrin:

SMZ

01-03-2006, 04:32

cool theory - woot @ you finally getting caught up - lol

and I mean, yeah Herid Fel was important, yeah we saw Vandene for a bit, and Faile's almost Aiel lover... but none of those were MAIN characters - ya kno?

The damage to Rand is the most severe, apparently permanent, things we've seen happen to a main character. Shocking and very cool imo. I agree wholeheartedly with Taim and Co. being Darkfriends. Personally I think Taim is a new Chosen, the first raised from this age... I think there is one more too - but I'm not sure who.

4th Dimension

01-03-2006, 13:48

Well about the seals. One of more reasonable theories is that seals are preventing the wheel from resealing DO prison. While they exist Wheel can not fully close the bore.

And about the DO touching the world. DO had less influence during the fall of Aol (lasted about 100 years I think) which was before War of Shadow. War of Shadow erupted when DO followers attempted to largen the Bore.

From Beginning of WoP to the Breaking strenght of DO grew.
And so is now.
It should already be at AoL (before WoP) level.

Rand will break the seals in order to have a lear acess to the bore. Now how will he seal it (will Creator intervene, which I doubt) I don't know.

Myrddraal

01-03-2006, 15:15

hmm, thats why I quite like the theory that the bore is a weave rather than an actual hole in anything. If that weave is sliced, then the prison is restored, to exactly as it was before it was bored into.

I also think that if a main character dies, it will probably be Egwene

4th Dimension

01-04-2006, 00:05

Well I would like a lot of things but they aint going to happen. If you break the seals you simply restore the bore to it's state before the sealing(tough it is possible that the shock of them breaking either seals it (if they block the Wheel from closing it an DO is using them in order not to spend his force in keeping the bore open) ir it can rip it more apparat (if it is as many belive in Ranland that only seals keep DO from overrunning the world)).

Egwene?
I don't think so. She is too much into that crap all power to women for RJ to allow it.

Myrddraal

01-04-2006, 02:25

Well I would like a lot of things but they aint going to happen. If you break the seals you simply restore the bore to it's state before the sealing(tough it is possible that the shock of them breaking either seals it (if they block the Wheel from closing it an DO is using them in order not to spend his force in keeping the bore open) ir it can rip it more apparat (if it is as many belive in Ranland that only seals keep DO from overrunning the world)).

What do you mean by that? I'm almost sure that Rand will break the seals...

SMZ

01-04-2006, 11:53

Or that they are already broken... some think the three waves of reality flickering which were felt was the DO flexing and breaking the last three seals.

4th Dimension

01-04-2006, 13:08

Oh and I'm also shure that he will break them. But I don't think that after he breaks them bore would close because of some weave thing.

Yeah and I know about that theory also. But problem is that it has been foreshadowed a couple times (Fell note, Egvene's dream) that Rand will break seals and begin TG.

Myrddraal

01-04-2006, 23:10

Oh and I'm also shure that he will break them. But I don't think that after he breaks them bore would close because of some weave thing.

I never said that. I said that the bore is a weave. To seal the bore Rand has to slice the weave. The seals are on top of that weave.

I'm not saying its a simple matter of breaking the seals. That would be kinda crap....

4th Dimension

01-05-2006, 00:43

ah that's what you meant.
Well, nice theory but it kinda lacks evidence. We know Merion drilled the pattern, then the bore was the weave. But that weave was broken when DO unleashed TP on it and from that moment Do had control over it.

Think about it as a gate to the place where Titans are imprisoned as on Greek mythology. You need insider (someone from real world) help to break out (or in, the matter of perspective). Merion was needed to open the gate which only mortals (insiders) can do, but once the gate was at least partially open DO could hold it open. But door has it's sel healing (closing ) mehanisyms. Remember why Wheel spawns ta'veren? They are spun to correct pattern. Our three ta'veren would need to be present at SG and a distraction should be made so that Do lessens it's grip on the entrance and alow Wheel plus pull from three ta'veren to heal the gap.

This is just my thoughts this moment.
I am shure what will happen will be either something simple and something rarely someone expected.

Andreas

01-08-2006, 15:51

So, with all this talk 'bout the books, maybe we should add some connection to the mod... I was wondering what parts of the book you think we can use in the mod. Here is a lsit of things I can think of right now:
* Increased fire rate for the bands crossbows
* Razors for domani nobles
* Seanchan use more crossbows then archers
* Seanchan use a mix of homeland and protectorate troops

More?

Also, I would like quotes you like from the book. Not to long mind....

Steppe Merc

01-08-2006, 16:26

More horse archers. Deffinetly for Domani, the Borderlands etc. Then the best ones should get a unique horse archer unit (Saladeans).
And lancer/archers...

cdaulepp

01-08-2006, 20:33

-I don't know what size you are planning on making each unit, but the band of the Red Hand's units are split into banners. 1 banner of horse = 1500 horse. (see the big white book and KoD ) 1 banner of foot = 3,000 men.

The seanchan use the same standards that Mat uses. They are more organized though, already having banner generals, lieutenant generals, and captain generals set up to command the armies. The other nations in Randland don't follow any type of organization other than every noble tries to get as many men as he/she can.

-The range on the two rivers bows should be longer than anyone else has.

-The taraboners that are in the Seanchan army seem totally loyal to the Seanchan. When General Galgan is getting reports about Ituralde's attack, at first they think that the conscripts they've signed had turned coat on them, but they find that it was Ituralde who had disguised his men. The Taraboners are very loyal to the Seanchan and even like them. Taraboner units in the Seanchan army or Taraboner generals in the Seanchan army should be very loyal.

-Amadician generals and Altaran generals in the Seanchan army don't seem as loyal. The Children, led by Galad, rebel against the Seanchan. Those men captured by the Seanchan when the fortress of light was taken are being worked like animals and they would flee and fight the Seanchan if they could. Beslan (Tylin's son) leads an uprising in Ebou Dar to allow the Seafolk Windfinders to escape and to allow Mat to escape. Also, the group of 10,000 men who attack Mat are Altarans. They are trying to kill the daughter of the nine moons. So I get the impression that the Amadicians and Altarans under Seanchan rule don't have the same loyalty that the Taraboners do. Although in other spots it is mentioned that the local conscripts fight with honor for the Seanchan.

-Mercenaries seem to be in abundance. Elayne mentions at least 6 different companies under her employ (3 turned on her and 3 remained loyal), and implies that there are a great many more. Arymilla has just as many under her own employ. She mentions she doesn't care that she is losing men, because the men she loses are mercenaries, not any of her own men. I would make mercenaries widely available, and have more than just 2 or 3 types of units. I would have at least 3 mercenary units available to recruit in each province and in the larger provinces/more populated provinces I'd have more than 3.

-Andor makes the best steel. Every local trader claims their weapons are either homemade or from Andor steel. Perhaps Andor should start with 1 upgrade to their weapons?

Steppe Merc

01-09-2006, 00:34

-The range on the two rivers bows should be longer than anyone else has.
Not by much. They were on a hill when they were firing on the Aiel, who would be able to fire almost as long and faster with their shorter composite bows (which have always been better than selfbows).

4th Dimension

01-09-2006, 01:01

Well yes and no. Two rivers archers only fire when they can aim and hit that target. Theri actual range is even longer. They nealy never fire in arcs.
And also they punch trough armour at ranges normal archers can't hit a target.

Disloyalty seems to be the trait for entire Altaran nation, as it is to Murandians. IF it can be made, Muranians an Altarans should have serious disloyalty issue, making their ocupation a werry dificult action.

And it would be shame if in demo I wouldnto see the quote "When Nial smiles, he's goin for the throat" or something like that.

SMZ

01-09-2006, 04:01

cdaulepp

01-09-2006, 04:15

good points about the mercenaries and the andorian steel cdaulepp =]

and to Steppe Merc - I did a breakdown on suggested missile stats before - you're right that in our world, composite bows are always better than any kind of self bow - but Jordan doesn't seem to apply those rules to his world - the Two Rivers bows are better than the Aiel bows in his world... at least in range and power... whether this is purposeful or a misunderstanding I'm not sure... but given his military background - I've got to assume that he just intentionally has a different design perhaps in mind for his Aiel bows that isn't as effective as that which was found in the Earth steppes

I don't think it was an error on RJ's part. The reason the Aiel composite bows have a shorter range is because they are not made to full scale like a Two Rivers Bow.

The Aiel carry three or more spears, a small shield, a horn bow, one or more daggers, and arrows. Wearing a full size bow on your back, extra spears, and a quiver with arrows, while trying to fight with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other would be terribly inhibitive. I always imagined the Aiel composite bows were smaller, scaled down versions of a full bow. I thought that was what caused them to have a shorter distance.

cdaulepp

SMZ

01-09-2006, 05:03

they are smaller - but so were the bows of Earth's nomads - they were using the bows from horseback after all...

it's just in the composition of the bow - composite bows are much better than self bows - by layering different materials you get a lot more potential energy - thus composite bows outshoot even the famed long bows, despite being smaller, faster and easier to use

ppl used what they had - in the western parts of europe there was plenty of wood - so to get a better bow - you made a bigger one

in the east - there wasn't an abundance of wood - so they figured out an even better way to make a bow using horn and animal sinew

that's why yew bows were famed - because yew wood, just in the way it grows, is kinda a natural composite... but still - you can see that a piece of horn that gets bent will release more energy than a piece of wood that gets bent, when they both snap back

I'm sure RJ's gotta know all that - so like I say, I'm guessing the Aiel bows aren't quite made the same way that ppl make composite bows in our world.

EDIT: To make an analogy: Somebody hitting you with a huge bag of feathers is going to hurt more than a little bag. But getting hit with a baseball hurts even more. The long bow is like increasing the size of the bag of feathers... the composite bow, is like finding something better to hit people with.

4th Dimension

01-10-2006, 13:10

Is there a possibility to add false dragons to spawn once in time as rebels?

Myrddraal

01-10-2006, 21:36

Yes it is though they'd just be rebels... No special flag or anything

4th Dimension

01-11-2006, 01:31

yes that's what I wanted a rebel general who can chanel.

beaverprophet

01-12-2006, 01:00

Hmm, sounds fine by me, just one thing though, from what i've seen, i think you want to stick as close to the books as possible?

I may have misunderstood though, but if that is so, then, having false dragons spawn is probably a bad idea, i seem to remember something being said about the pattern not allowing any more false dragons to proclaim themselves once Rand has done so.

so if you want to stick with the booksthen, having false dragons spawning with rebel armies probably isn't a good idea, if you can consider deviating a bit from what the books say, then i say, go for it.

SMZ

01-12-2006, 04:49

Actually, we'll be able to have it both ways. One of the choices we made was to have two eras. The first, The Flame of Tar Valon Era, will take place while there is still a Malkier, and the Forsaken are locked away, the Seanchan are a myth and the White Tower is the lands foremost power. In this era, false dragons could pop up.

The second era is titled, The Dragon's Fang Era. This Era begins with the Seanchan Invasion, so The People of the Dragon will be active, and no false dragons will be popping up. Good point tho - thnx for mentioning it. =]

beaverprophet

01-12-2006, 14:33

Right, i had forgotten that you were doing two different eras, no problem then.

Antagonist

01-12-2006, 15:21

The possibility of a False Dragon appearing in the Early era of the mod would definately spice things up :2thumbsup: It sounds like a bit of a challenge to implement though. It wouldn't seem right to have them like bandits or something, cropping up in the wilds every few years. Maybe through scripting?

I don't know if it's possible to implement this, but one thing that would be really cool would be to simulate False Dragon's significantly increasing their support when they win battles. It seems to me from the history in the books that if a FD declares himself but is then immediately crushed, he is forgotten by history, but if he consistently succeeds in battle he starts rapidly gaining support as more and more people are persuaded that he's the Real Deal. They would start out as a relatively minor danger, but if ignored or not taken seriously you might end up with somebody like Guaire Amalasan, with hundreds of thousands of followers sweeping over entire nations. Ideally having them trying to capture Tear would be really great.

That's probably too sophisticated to feasibly implement, but just throwing out some ideas.

One other small question I'm not clear on: Will the Shadow feature and/or be playable in the Early Era, or are you concentrating on the interaction between the human nations?

Antagonist

Andreas

01-12-2006, 19:06

The Shadow will be featured in both eras...

Steppe Merc

01-12-2006, 21:05

Well in Early era, will their be Two Rivers longbowmen? Don't they only start to moblize after Rand?

As for composite bows, I do think that Jordan has made a mistake, either through choice or ignorance. So I guess the longbow should have a longer range, since you want to be true to the books or whatever. But please don't screw over the Northern and Western (seems these guys like horsebows the most) recurved horse bows, and especially the Aiel bows (infantry composite is always longer, and has better range and penetration).
Longbows also tend to rely more on the weight of the arrow rather than the compression of the bow for pentration (and longbows were slower to fire and took more to draw to the ear).

4th Dimension

01-14-2006, 01:12

One question. Which year does the first era start?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

01-14-2006, 17:24

About longbows, I don't think the wierdness is with the Aeil, I think its in the Two Rivers, the "black yew" they use is, I think actually different to real yew. It sounds like the trees have evolved over 3,000 years. Don't forget crossbows have greater range and power anyway, Mat says that at one point.

About the seals, Rand has to break them because I suspect that otherwise more taint could get leached onto Saidan. Also I don't really see how things could get that much worse.

Just a thought, would it be possible to script the emergance of a Malkiri Horde, with the sole purpose of fighting the Shadow?

Andreas

01-14-2006, 17:56

We have talked about making The Golden Crane a playable faction in the late era.

As for when the early era will start, we do not have a absolute number for that yet, but it might be somewhere around 100 yeares before the aiel war. The late will start with the fall of cairhien.

4th Dimension

01-15-2006, 01:08

I asked because you bould script False Dragons as hordes, let them appear with armies. They should be scripted to appear more and more until the end of era.
I know it is too much complicated but just a tought.

McFungos

01-15-2006, 09:29

Please use Gameplay Discussion: Campaign Map of the message board to discuss this subject.

Andreas

01-15-2006, 20:10

Yes, I agree with McFungos. I created those two topics for things like that, this is a kod thread after all. We will try to adress any questions there, so every thing not related to KOD should be put there.

4th Dimension

01-16-2006, 01:22

So what were we disusing about KOD :D

Andreas

01-16-2006, 12:02

The seals...

CrownOfSwords

01-17-2006, 08:41

Im almost curious why he is so careful about breaking the seals, it mentions that he plans to seal the darkone's chamber like the creator did so long ago so why would he care about the seals if he isnt going to use them? I almost wish there were 2 more books I hope they go into detail about preparing for the lastbatlle basically it only mentions him sending the Tairens to the borderlands. Im also curious how Mat plays into the Seachan and how an alliance is possible to fight the shadow. Ive been wondering why Rand seems to be playing with the Seachan he could ultimately crush them pretty easily I believe, but he doesnt maybe he is just trying to delay them until the last battle so their personal war will be over and they will both have full strength against the borderlands?

I think Rand needs to educate Tuon about Trollocks since it mentions she doesnt believe in them or something, Tuon needs to bring more of the Empires strength to fight the last battle.

Ive also thought about the last battle, if Rand really calls on every man to fight he has a few million soldiers so how many damned Trollocks are there going to be, I believe we know who alot of the dreadlords are already I believe Taim's little crew will show their true shade soon, even so hopefully Rand also has the Aes Sedai's support along with the damane of the Seachan I almost wonder how the last battle could go wrong?

Sorry about any any gramatical errors, I basically empyted my head of thoughts about KoD

4th Dimension

01-17-2006, 14:19

He still cares about the seals because however weak they do still hold DO's prison closed. He WILL break them if he means to reseal it the right way, but for now, for as long as they exist, DO is sealed.

Seanchan DO know about trolocs. They have a Blight of their own in north of Seanchan. Tough it is pretty weak because S using their beasts eradicated nearly all Shadowspawn from it, but there are still some (Draghtars for example). What they do not belive is that Trolocs are dangerous.

There will be at least as many trolocs as Rand's normal troopers, and as many Dreadlords as his chanalers, tough I think Shadow will have numerical superiority. Also DF will be put to work. They will owerthrow law and order. Make haos in Rands comunication and suply lines ect.

CrownOfSwords

01-18-2006, 06:14

Gosh they could write a whole book just about the last battle...

4th Dimension

01-18-2006, 12:53

I tought it would be like that. But seeing what yet needs to happen.
Well... dark times for WoTes are comming

DragonR.

01-21-2006, 17:28

Gosh they could write a whole book just about the last battle...

I certainly hope so...

4th Dimension

01-21-2006, 23:43

Hope is one thing...
HArsh reality is a whole another thing.
Lot's of things need to happen before or at least during initial stages of TG

DragonR.

01-22-2006, 00:01

Well, I want at least a 1000 pages of TG, other 2000 can go for plot development....

4th Dimension

01-22-2006, 14:40

Aha. And how much time do you think will it take fo RJ to write those 3000 pages?

CrownOfSwords

01-23-2006, 06:25

Seems that a book is released every 2 years... which also means that a new sword of truth book comes out next yearwoohoo lol but we have 2 until the last wot book comes. And think what we will have in 2 years WOT RTW, maybe even something for MTW 2 oh boy.

Myrddraal

01-23-2006, 15:56

Umm, I was pretty sure that Trollocs were so rare in Seanchan that the Seanchan considered them myths...

wertdengrumme

01-23-2006, 16:16

arent they extinct in seanchen because the seanchen killed all shadowspawn in their blight (except for a few draghkar)

DragonR.

01-23-2006, 16:43

I think they said they had no Trollocks, but they did have other kinds of shadowspawn...

beaverprophet

01-23-2006, 21:07

I think they said they had no Trollocks, but they did have other kinds of shadowspawn...

Yeah, that's what i thought too.

4th Dimension

01-24-2006, 12:54

Yes the have no Trolocs but have other ones. But if those exist they know others exist too. The yonly havent battled them in a long time that's why they underetimate them.

Werthead

01-24-2006, 21:08

Draghkar, Darkhounds and Worms still exist in the Lesser Blight (in the north of the Seanchan continent) beyond the western Mountains of Dhoom (which apparently encircle the entire north of the planet, both above ground and underwater), but the northern frontier is extremely distant from the major cities. Also, the landmass with the Lesser Blight is totally seperated from the southern landmass, which contains Seandar. The situation in Seanchan is probably that the northern guard posts battle Draghkar and Darkhound incursions every now and then, but nothing more than the odd rumour makes it out to the common people of the Empire. Thus even the Shadowspawn that do exist in Seanchan are considered myths by everyone save the military and the Empress. Those that aren't there at all (Myrddraal and Trollocs) are probably considered to be myths by everyone.

Rand doesn't want to crush the Seanchan because he knows it would bleed his armies and weaken them for the Last Battle. In addition, he knows by now that the Prophecies state that he will bind the Nine Moons to him, so his interest is now in winning an alliance with the Seanchan. Such an alliance could numerically increase his army's size by 30% or more, and add another thousand channellers to his ranks, something not to be dismissed lightly.