Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR [Archive]

Franconicus

11-11-2005, 14:44

Do you remember this?

Chapter 1

PREVIOUS HISTORY

As Speer talks about the Panther you can see how Hitler is impressed and almost like a little boy when he finds a new toy. He tried to rush past the trouble of the reliability of the Panther, but you jump at it.

"Mein Führer, the Panther is obviously going to be a superb tank in battle, and I woul lov to have it with me when we attack." You turn to Speer. "I urge you Minister Speer, to get as many as possible out on the front at once."
Hitler looks back and forth between the two of you, clearly filled with joy, but before he can say anything you do what must be done. "I want all the tanks you have at the moment, right now! The problems of the tanks going up in flames for no apparent reason is debilitating, I want that ironed out as soon as possible. And we all know that the best way to test a tank is on the battlefield. Send a lot of technicians as well." Now Hitler is less joyful.

"Wait a second Herr Field Marshall." Ow, when he uses titles it can't be good. "The Panther should stay in stock where the technicians can work on it, and it will remain a secret. It is important that we do not let this advantage slip."
"If we had time I would agree, but since time is of the essence we must send it out right away. The quirks and problems arise much faster at the front and can thus much easier be corrected, besides the time will not allow the Russians to react to the Panther, now will they need to as there won't be that many."
"Hmmm... I'm not happy about such a case. Remember what happened with the Tiger when my generals wanted it fast at the front?" You remember clearly what happened to it, though the general had a very small part in it.
"Yes, I remember. But this is an entirely new case. The Tiger was meant to be a rude shock, the Panther is meant to be a main battle tank, hiding it won't help much really."
"Very well, I can accept that, but you better not squander them."
Right then Speer joins in. "But we haven't produced more than some 20 operational tanks, what are they worth? Such a low number would be problematic for the logistics." Hitler of course favours Speer. "I hadn't thought of that, yes hold them back."
"No... The minor problem with the logistics will be overcome, we are already having several other trial units. What about von Richthofens' cannon Stukas? There are what, 6 of them? Have the Luftwaffe complained about that? In any case, we have to do this. I can't imagine the trouble if we lost some 100 tanks because of reliability in a major battle. This way we risk less, we are already far behind in tank numbers, we can't afford to have all the important tanks break down."
Speer nods, seeing your argument. And with his agreement Hitler is once again put in a tough spot, he has no more rational points to make. For another couple of minutes you fight Hitler over the issue, going through the entire range of mental states, you rage, argue, begs, urge, demands and even threaten to resign. In the end you are exhausted, but Hitler is even more so. He waves you off with a short comment. "Fine, have it your way!"

Yes, it is stolen from Kraxis~;p
It is the start of his trip through history asuming Manstein tries to win the war with Hitler. I'd like to go another way, trying to win (or at least end) the war without Hitler.

Please note that I am not Kraxis. So please do not expect me to do a story as accurate and brilliant as he did. I even won't do it as interactive as he did.

Of course I have a rough idea how the story begins. But then, there are too many questions and I am sure I will need your help. And who could help better then the MONASTERIES? So let's have fun!

So my question for the weekend:
When do you think is the time that Manstein has to make the decision to oppone Hitler?

P.S.: Did I mention that my English isnot very good?~:mecry:
Have a nice weekend ~;)

Moderator, could you please make it sticky? Thank you!:bow:

King Kurt

11-11-2005, 16:31

Franconicus

11-11-2005, 16:50

I think we should have him bump into a dissident general - what about Rommel, snatched back from Tunisia, disgruntled with being left in the lurch in North Africa - or one of the other generals in the 1944 plot. That would give him the thought which can be mulled over during operations around Kursk.

If we contribute - do we get to share the movie rights???!!!! - I see lots more long periods of mulling over "what if options" - looking forward to being invoved from the begining~:cheers:

King,
The question today is: When is the time for M. to decide to get rid of A.H.?
About your share: Of course you will have to share the fees for Kraxis ~;)
And this is your extra bonus: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Karte_Ukraine.png

Kagemusha

11-11-2005, 17:14

Great this came soon Franconicus sama! For your question,first we have to create a web around hitler in order to decide when we can end his regime.We should contact trustworthy people.
BTW if King Kurt gets Ukraina what is here to gain for Kagemusha?~;)

King Kurt

11-11-2005, 17:18

I don't see Manstein having a Damascas moment and suddenly deciding - I see it as an idea which is planted - by say meeting a dissident general - and he grapples with the idea against the background of the Kursk battle. This way, we add an additional collection of "what ifs" - should he do it or not, the dissident general - is he for real or is he a double agent, does M do it off his own back or does he become a figurehead of a broader movement. The Kursk thread was good because, although we all thought we knew what would happen, Kraxis had us guessing to the end - so we should provoke lots of possible directions for the story to go. I'm off for the weekend - look forward to seeing some material on Monday.~:cheers:

As for my share - I can almost see those endless fields of wheat - criss-crossed with tank tracks.~:joker:

Franconicus

11-14-2005, 08:26

Chapter 2

PRELUDE

After your meeting with Hitler you decide not to return to Russia immediately. Now that the offensive is postponed you want to refresh contacts at home. Maybe you can get more support. Further more you want to try to get a better view of the overall strategic situation.

You have another meeting with Speer. He wants to talk about the eastern front. You tell him about the increasing strength of the Red Army and he promises to do the best he can to improve the equipment and supply of your troops. According to his plans the output of tanks and planes will increase significantly in 1943.

He tells you about his concerns about the air raids over Germany. So far, the RAF could not affect the production although the losses among civilians are high. But our night fighters are getting stronger now and Göring told him that the Tommies cannot pay the price much longer. Speer is more worried about the activities of the USAAF. Day attacks could become a problem when 4 Mots start to come in bigger numbers.

Afterwards you have a long meeting with the Inspector-General of the Armoured Troops Guderian. You speak about the events in the last six months:
November - British and US troops landed in Western Africa
January - Conference of Casablanca with the demand of an unconditional surrender
February - the disaster of Stalingrad; then the Soviet attacks on the Heeresgruppe Süd and the success at Charkow to stop the Russians.
the build up of the Heeresgruppe Afrika
the operation to take Tunis
the battle at the Kasserine. Now the Heeresgruppe is heavily struggling in defense.

Guderian tells you that there is no plan to get the soldiers out of Africa. Rommel will give his commandership to General von Arnim. This is a sign that the Heeresgruppe won’t be able to stand much longer.
Finally you talk about the situation in Russia. Guderian does not agree to attack this summer. He prefers building a good defensive line with strong independent tank formations behind it. That is the only way to stop a Soviet attack in winter and to build a big tank force to respond any invasion of the western allies. On the whole you agree. But you’d rather fight the Soviets in summer than to wait until winter. You still have the idea to destroy so many Soviet armies that they cannot start a new attack this winter. Then troops would be released to fight the Western allies. Guderian give you a warning. He fears that the eastern armies will get into the same trap as they did last year. Exhausted by the attempt to break strong defensive lines crushed by a Soviet counter strike. That is what happened at Moscow and Stalingrad. Once again you realize that Guderian is an excellent expert of the eastern front. You remember that it was him who closed the gap at Kiew in 1941 and captured more than 660 thousand Russians there. He also fought the battle at Bryansk with another 600 thousand prisoners.

Guderian tells you that Rommel will come to Berlin soon. He will get the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. Guderian will arrange a meeting with him.
Of course you also have to meet Keitel. When you visit him in his office you find Zeitzler with him. Keitel does not ask for information about the situation in Russia. He just repeats the point of views you already heard from Hitler. He also starts demanding a total victory in the east and expresses his confession that the Endsieg is near. You start getting bored. Zeitzler is ordered to make a plan for operation Zitadelle. He wants to discuss some details. You invite him to visit the front. He tells you that he is indispensable. When you leave Keitel tells you that Hitler will give you the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves.
So you meet Hitler again at March 14th. When he gives you the decoration he tells you that you are one of his best generals and that he relies on you. “With generals like you”, he said, “nothing can stop me from beating its enemies and to create a new, shiny Germany”. Once more you feel that he is very charismatic. However, you remember how he influenced the operations in Russia and all the recriminations and insults.

After the ceremony Goebbels and Rommel appear. Goebbels wants to take a few propaganda pictures of Rommel and you with your new Knight’s crosses. After that Goebbels invites you to have dinner with him.

You meet Rommel and Guderian this evening. Rommel tells you about lessons learned in Africa. You hear the frustration when he talks about allied air power. From his point of view the US troops are inferior to the Germans. They lack of experience, spirit and discipline. Their leadership is poor. The German tanks can easily deal with the Sherman. However, this tank is better than the British. The only problem is the allied air power. They attack everything they see. Without supply and air support his troops had no choice but to retreat.

The Italians will not fight much longer. They are tired of this war. He even suspects the Italian Supreme Command to have rattened his efforts.

Rommel speaks bitter about Hitler. He says he had to fight in Africa without support from home. All he received were accuses and stupid orders. At El Alamein he even had to retreat against Hitler’s orders to rescue his troops. Now they are trapped at Tunis and there is probably no way to get them back. They will stand for the next two months maybe but then they will have to capitulate. This will be a military disaster as big as Stalingrad.

Then he calls on you let them know something more about Stalingrad. You say that it is a similar story. Hitler’s orders made the Heeresgruppe Süd stretch their lines and gave the Soviets the opportunity to close the 6th army in. Even then Hoth would have rescued them if Hitler only made them sally. He is responsible for the loss of a complete army. You also report of the defensive operations in spring. You tell them that you had to fight against the Soviets and Hitler’s ideas. One example is the fall of Charkow. The town was held by SS troops. When the Soviets attacked Hitler told them to stay and fight until the end. Everybody saw that this was nonsense and so the SS leader Paul Hauser ordered his troops to retreat. Two weeks later your counter strike took the town back. Hitler would have victimized his SS troops for nothing.

All three of you feel that Germany is about to loose the war. Germany is still powerful enough to stop any attack from east or west. But it is Hitler himself who makes the fight futile. It is getting late and you all have a bit too much of that French Cognac. You start playing mind games. What would be if Hitler was gone. Would there be a civil war? How could Germany stand that with enemies in the east and west? On the other hand, is there a chance to win the war with Hitler? Or at least come to a good end? What would the US do? Would they insist on a capitulation? Or would they even join the war against communism? Guderian says that there is nothing he could do against Hitler. His code of honor as a Prussian officer makes this impossible. You ask him: ”Isn’t there a point were your honor calls you for more than just following orders. I am a German officer, not a Nazi follower. I am committed to the German people.” Rommel says: “Erich, what do you think will happen if Hitler is dead? There will be a civil war. The fronts will collapse. Million of innocent will die. Everything we want to avoid will happen. You will be blamed for that.” “Doing nothing is not acceptable for me. I have to do the best I can to prevent Germany from any damage. And yes, I will take the responsibility for all that will happen.” Guderian and Rommel get upset and when you leave you have the feeling that there is a shadow over your friendship.

Next evening you spend with Goebbels. Once again you realize that he is a fascinating man. He can manipulate the people like no one else. But he is also a brainless follower of the Führer. He has no doubt about the Endsieg. He suppresses the possibility that Germany may not win. You feel that under his false front he is filled with horror what might happen to him when he found out he betted on the wrong horse.

After two weeks in Berlin you feel it is time to return to your troops. At your hotel you meet Sepp Dietrich, commander of the Leibstandarte SS ‘Adolf Hitler’ (LSSAH). He received his oak leaves two days after you. You decide to fly back together. Guderian drives you to the airport. Before the plane starts he takes you aside and says: “Erich, I cannot help. I must follow Hitler. He is my commander. Hope you understand. Once he is gone the situation is different. Then you can count on me, whatever you want me to do.” You shake his hand. “I know, Heinz. Be sure, there will a time Germany needs you; even more than it needs you now.”
On your flight back to the front there are a lot of things going through your head. Is there a chance to end this war without loosing every thing? Will Hitler find a way? Is Heinz right? Does it make sense to attack the Soviets? Or should you wait? Can you afford to wait while the Amis are getting stronger and stronger? Isn’t it time to end this war by diplomatic means? Will anybody make peace with Hitler? Is there a time when a general has to turn against his leader? And what will be then? Civil war? Will the allies destroy Germany and enslave the population? Will the communists rule?
Like Rommel said: The dead Hitler is more dangerous than the living one?
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1. How can you convince Guderian and Rommel? Who else do you need?
2. How can you replace Hitler without starting a civil war?

King Kurt

11-14-2005, 16:02

The seeds are being laid nicely.
Some pointers:
1) Guderian looks too loyal - I have been doing some surfing on him and he looks too loyal to Hitler to join any revolt - but he might come in when Hitler was dead.
2) To stop civil war, Hitler's death should be an "accident". A possibility here is that Rommel was commander of Hitler's personal bodyguard in the late 30's - so some possible links there. Also, Canaris - head of German intellegence - was quite active in the resistance to Hitler - so maybe some dirty tricks personel could be made available.
3) Looking into the July the 20th plot, there were several attempts on Hitler's life and several small revolts/ coups etc - good link is

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html

This provides lots of details and possible strands/ ideas.

4) For a real wacky idea, how about Hitler's plane being ambushed and shot down by the allies. With info from ULTRA and long range fighters - P38's? - you could come up with a scenario. This is not so far fetched - it was how the Americans killed Admiral Yamoto. When Hitler visits Army group Centre he is only 60 kms from the front.
5) Another alternative would be Goering - he was nominaly number 2 in the Reich, but if Hitler died, Himmler was much more likely to take over. So what about using him, either as a possible part of the plot or a fall guy as a decoy for the real ploters.
6) Another sight with some good biographies of German generals is

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/intro.htm
So food for thought - isn't it time this thread was made sticky?~:cheers:

Franconicus

11-15-2005, 08:34

Nice thoughts! Looks like this is going to be a duet instead of a symphony! But as long as you keep being that inspiring I don't mind.

The seeds are being laid nicely.
Some pointers:
1) Guderian looks too loyal - I have been doing some surfing on him and he looks too loyal to Hitler to join any revolt - but he might come in when Hitler was dead.
Maybe you are right. I think he had some quarrel with A.H. and with other commanders, but in the end he was loyal. But I agree with your conclusion. In fact Manstein does not have many alternatives.
2) To stop civil war, Hitler's death should be an "accident". A possibility here is that Rommel was commander of Hitler's personal bodyguard in the late 30's - so some possible links there. Also, Canaris - head of German intellegence - was quite active in the resistance to Hitler - so maybe some dirty tricks personel could be made available.
I do not trust Canaris. He is laying his own game. And I am sure that the SD and Gestapo are watching him closely!
3) Looking into the July the 20th plot, there were several attempts on Hitler's life and several small revolts/ coups etc - good link is

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html

This provides lots of details and possible strands/ ideas.
You are right. July 20th was a complete desaster. We have to make it better. We have to plan carefully how to kill A.H., how to get rid of the Nazi power, how to prevent a civil war. This is a very difficult job to do. If we make a mistake the result will be disastrous.
4) For a real wacky idea, how about Hitler's plane being ambushed and shot down by the allies. With info from ULTRA and long range fighters - P38's? - you could come up with a scenario. This is not so far fetched - it was how the Americans killed Admiral Yamoto. When Hitler visits Army group Centre he is only 60 kms from the front.
Great idea! But I think that it is too uncertain. Hitler did not visit the front for Zitadelle. So we must give him an additional reason. Then he is not so foreseeable as Yamamoto. I might change his plan twice a day. Then I doubt that he will come so close to the front. And if he does how do we get the information to the Soviets. Will they cooperate. Killing enemies commanders is not part of Soviet tradition. They usually kill their own commanders. And even if we manage to get help from Soviets this is propably something a German general would not do! And even if the Soviets attack, the Luftwaffe is still strong and Hitler's plane will be good protected.
Nebertheless - I really like the idea. Maybe we can modify it ~;)
5) Another alternative would be Goering - he was nominaly number 2 in the Reich, but if Hitler died, Himmler was much more likely to take over. So what about using him, either as a possible part of the plot or a fall guy as a decoy for the real ploters.
I will think about that!

So food for thought - isn't it time this thread was made sticky?~:cheers:
Asked for it! Did not work so far!

Kagemusha

11-15-2005, 10:51

Im going to reply but the questions are so much wider so i need to do little research before answering.~:)

Franconicus

11-15-2005, 12:51

Yeah, it is not easy to free the world from the little tramp!

BACK IN RUSSIA

When your plane finally touches ground Hoth is already waiting. Before he drives you to your head quarter Dietrich says good bye. His unit is already in combat. Back at your head quarter Hoth gives you an overview. According to your instructions the SS formation were pulled off the front and are now operating in the partisan areas. The intelligence expects almost 100,000 partisans behind your lines. They have already a strong impact on your supply and you have the concern that they will become more active when you start your offensive. So this is just a part of your preparation. The SS formations work together with special SS task forces. The SS has cleared an area of some hundreds of square kilometers. However, they have only caught several hundred partisans. The rest disappeared in some other areas.

The front itself is quiet. But reconnaissance shows that the Soviet cart galore troops to the front. And they prepare for a deep staggered defense. The Russian air force made an attack against air fields. 200 planes are crushed or damaged. Obviously the Soviets have gotten wind of your intentions. Again you think of Guderian. Is there really a chance to make a decisive victory? Or are you only going to waste the valuable resources you will need in winter time?

As the front is quiet you use the time to fly back to Germany to have a small surgery. Beginning of April Hitler calls you to a conference to Munich. Kluge and Model are there too. You discuss the situation in the east. Model wants to wait. He says that he is not strong enough now and needs more troops, especially tanks. Kluge and you disagree. You both tell Hitler that the Russian reinforcements come faster than the German ones. Everyday the ratio is getting worse for the Germans. Hitler looks uncertain. You add that the situation in Africa is getting critical. There will soon be troops needed to stop the Americans to invade Europe. Then it is too late to attack in the east. Hitler shakes his head. “Do not worry! It will take months until the Americans and English will be ready to attack us there. Before this will happen we are finished with the communists. Well I have to think about the situation. Go back to your armies, Gentlemen. Keitel will send you my decision.” A week later Keitel sends you news, the operation is postponed.

End of April you return to Berlin. Hitler wants to give some additional instructions for the upcoming operation. Before you leave the front you give Hoth final instructions. The SS division will return to their assembly areas. Two infantry divisions will try to suppress the partisans. Hoth will increase reconnaissance. The last raiding patrols brought more information and some prisoners. Obviously there are at least two Soviet fronts in front of us. There are three fortified lines with anti tank guns and artillery, all entrenched. The Soviets even dug their tanks. Well, your troops are ready to strike and with respect of the Soviet build up now is the time to attack. The Luftwaffe already started her operations. They are attacking the railway net. Further more they are attacking the tractor factory ‘Molotow’, where 800 T34 are produced every week.

FINAL PREPARATIONS

On the way to Berlin you catch Galland, Inspector of the fighters. The picture he gives of the air war is bleak. Lack of planes and pilots everywhere. He expects a heavy bomber offensive over the Reich soon. He is confident that the fighters will be able to stop the Flying Fortresses as long as there are no escort fighters. But he is sure that the Amis will soon have long range fighters. The defense over the Reich is not prepared for that at all. All efforts should be put in an increase of our air defense. But defense does not fit into Hitler’s concept. He only allows to attack and so the bomber program has higher priority than the fighter program. You are really pleased about the conversation. Galland seems one of few who dare to speak frankly. His personal courage is beyond any doubt. Although he is a general he takes every opportunity to fly missions against the RAF or the USAAF.

After your arrival in Berlin you meet with Guderian and Rommel. They tell bad news. The losses of submarines are so severe that the navy decided to stop the missions for a while. New technologies will bring better opportunities - hopefully. The situation in Africa is desperate. The Heeresgruppe Afrika is pulled back to a small area near Tunis. They are under constant air attacks. There is almost no supply coming to them.

You tell about the situation in the east. You tell about the strong position of the Soviets right where you want to attack. Even if you succeed the losses will be too high to compensate. And every day that is wasted makes the situation even more futile.

You tell Rommel and Guderian that you do not want to proceed like this. Your soldiers are fighting for their country. They rely on you. You won’t let them down. If no one else has the courage to do so you will do what has do be done. All you ask them for is to support in case Hitler is gone. Then it is the task of the army to prevent a civil war and to make a peace that guarantees Germany a good future.

Rommel and Guderian do not look happy at all. For a while there is silence. Then Rommel says: “I see! I go crazy when I think that my brave men get lost for nothing at all, just because of the ignorance of one man. Erich, if you need me, count on me!” Guderian sighs and nods.

You have to wait a few days to see Hitler. You play scenarios of what would be if something happened to Hitler.

Franconicus

11-16-2005, 15:21

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Guderian and Rommel are finally willing to support you. But it is clear that it is your job to kill A.H.. So what you need right now is a good plan.

1. Kill him in his HQ.
i) Go in there and shoot him. So you can be sure that the job will be done right. However you really must have a good plan to get out alive and then to keep control of the situation.
ii) Go there and put a bomb in the room. So you can get out alive. And maybe you also kill some other Nazi leaders. But the result is uncertain.
iii) Find someone who is willing to kill him. Of course you loose control and have to fear treason. But you will be free to arrange everything. It will be much easier to keep control of the situation after the assassination.
2. Lure him to the front. There are many ways to kill him there. It could be an ‘accident’. However it is hard to get Hitler to the front. He rather leads from the capitol. And killing Hitler in Russia would mean that you are far away from the capitol. In this case you depend on Guderian.
3. Forget it! Any putsch against A.H. is too risky!

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MoROmeTe

11-16-2005, 16:44

2. Get him to fly to the front and leak some info to the Russians. They'll kill him for you and then I'm sure everyone will be behind the General's Triumvirate of Manstein, Guderian and Goebels...

Franconicus

11-17-2005, 08:03

Moromete,
Welcome to our story. I need all the help I can get to kill A.H. and end the war!

Lets lure him to the front. Just have to find a way to make him come. And then, how will he be killed? I do not trust the Russian option. First, how can you be sure that this will work. He will be heaviliy guarded and the communication with the Soviets will be difficult. Second, if the other generals find out that you co-operate with the Soviets to kill Hitler - that is the end of your operation. Third, Hitler killed at the front by Russians at the top of his military success - this could make him a national hero.
Like Rommel said. The dead Hitler could be more dangerous than the living one.

We also should start thinking about the time after A.H.. I like the idea of a triumvirate with Goebbels. We might need a straw man from the NSDAP to keep the SS quiet. However, we must get rid of him when we want to negotiate with the US and GB.

Franconicus

11-18-2005, 08:48

Chapter 4:

MEETING HITLER

May 13th. Finally you meet Hitler. When you enter the headquarter you feel something has happened. You feel tension. Nobody is talking to you, nobody even looks. Finally Keitel comes and brings you to the Führer. Before you enter the room he says: “Be careful. He just received the message that Afrika surrendered”.

Hitler stands among a group of generals. You hardly recognize him. He murmurs about treason and cowardice. He looks tired and it takes a few minutes until he realizes that you stand in front of him. He looks at you: “Feldmarschall, we have to postpone the start of our attack until July. First of all I have to fix some problems in the south. I guess I’ll have to take some reinforcements away from you. Keitel will give you more details later.” Obviously the audition is over. You make a last attempt and start: “My Führer, the situation in the east is getting worse every day. We have to face more than a million Russian soldiers, with 3,000 tanks, 4,000 planes. They are entrenched and waiting for our attack. Everyday new divisions enforce the enemy. If we do not attack them now the whole operation will fail. We have to start right now or forget about it.” You realize that your voice was louder than usual. Hitler looks at you with anger. Then he explodes: “Millions of enemies, thousands of tanks and planes? That is ridiculous. My generals always give me wrong numbers to increase their merits and cloud their incompetence. Russia would be an empty dessert now if all numbers you gave me were right. Your numbers are pure phantasm. I tell you the Russians are whacked. Russia will collapse as soon as Zitadelle starts. You always talk about numbers; numbers of men, numbers of tanks, numbers of planes. I give you numbers, real numbers. For your attack you have the same number of planes and tanks we had in 1941 for the whole invasion of Russia. But you only have to do an operation on a local scale. But still you moan.
And I tell you one thing: nothing of it all really matters. Nothing but WILL. When I started my career did I count my opponents? No. I had nothing but will and I will dominate the world soon. The will of the German soldiers will make the victory over the barbarian hordes from the east. And it will make them crush the armies of the decadent western democracies, too. So do not waste my time with numbers. If you do not have the courage to follow me to victory then you are not worth commanding my brave soldiers.”
On the spur of the moment you say: “Forgive me, mein Führer, I am wrong, you are right. How could I doubt? We will win. We will crush the Soviets completely. Will is all that matters. That is true. How often have you shown this that this is true? But please do me a favor. Come to the front! Talk to your soldiers! Inspire them! Let them participate in your will. They love you and they will fight for you. Nothing will be able to stop them then.” Suddenly it is quiet. Everybody is staring at you. You see the furiousness in Keitel’s face. Hitler looks blank. He reflects what you said. Then he raises his head and nods. “You are right, Feldmarschall. My men need me. I will go to my armies and I will lead them to victory.” Abruptly he turns around. Now the audience is finished. You leave as fast as you can. You go directly to Guderian and tell him about your plan. Reluctantly he agrees. When you go back to your hotel you get a call from Goebbels. He is jubilant about your proposal. He tells you that he will make a big propaganda event of this. He wants to talk about details but you tell him to talk with Keitel and his staff.
Next day you call Himmler and ask him for a meeting. He says that he could arrange to have lunch with you. When you meet you ask for support for Zitadelle. His SS troops will be crucial for success. He promises to do the best he can. Casually you tell him that Hitler will visit the front and that Goebbels wants to make a big propaganda event. At once he says that he wanted to inspect his divisions for a long time. He will come with Hitler. You tell him that you think this is a good idea.
The following week you spend a lot of time with Guderian, discussing the details of your plan. Guderian also tells you that Keitel wanted to change Hitler’s mind about the trip to the front. But Hitler is obsessed by the idea. He tells everybody that he will be among his soldiers when the attack starts.

Now there are two options:
1) Stick together, go on and kill A.H.
2) Step aside and let Kraxis do his next interactive

Kagemusha

11-23-2005, 03:23

1) Kill him.

Franconicus

11-23-2005, 13:52

kagemusha-san,

Thank you for your detailed reply!

I wonder if I go on with this story. I do not want to spam the monastry. And to be honest - soon I'll be at my wits' end!

But alright! Let's kill A.H..

Chapter 5:

ALEA IACTA EST

On your way back to Russia you think about the situation. Although you made up your mind, you are not sure that you do the right thing. Is a commander allowed to decide that the fight is lost? Is it really up to you to try and change the situation? Do you even have a chance? Or are you going to spoil everything?

It will be your job to kill Hitler and to keep control of the front troops. But you have to rely on Guderian to get control of the capital. Can you rely on him? Will he be able to execute your plan?

When you touch ground at Kiev your mind is made up. Although you worry how to get control of the situation once Hitler is gone you see no way back.

You stay one day at Kiev. The town is the logistic centre for the upcoming operations. And you know very well that logistic is a key to success for any operation in Russia. You also meet the town major and the commanders of the air fleets Dessloch and von Greim.

Returned to the front you find everything prepared. The Panzerkorps are in place. The Infantry Divisions are ready. Two of them, however, are still in the partisan area. The Luftwaffe is already attacking the transport network. The Red Air Force responds with attacks against German air fields and railway stations.

The following weeks you spend more time in planning Hitler’s trip than in preparing the military operation. But finally everything is done. The visit is scheduled for June 30th. Hitler will arrive at a small airport 150 miles behind the front. ‘Totenkopf’ will secure within a radius of 30 km. Units of the Flak will protect the air field.

Hitler will speak to selected soldiers of SS and Wehrmacht. Every soldier will have to give his ammo away before he will meet Hitler. Then Hitler will honor some soldiers. Finally there will be conference with the commanders who are part of operation Zitadelle.

Along with Hitler come Keitel and Zeitzler from the head quarter. Göring insisted to join the visit, too. He obviously wants to use this opportunity to make amends – after his fatal error concerning the supply of Stalingrad. Himmler also announced his visit. He wants to join the conference and then inspect the SS troops.

One week before the visit the propaganda crews arrive and disarrange everything. You start for a short trip to Romania. You receive some decorations and there is a lot of press there. You see that you have a very good reputation. People did not forget that you stopped the Soviet after Stalingrad. The Romanian leader tells you additional Romanian infantry divisions are on the way to enforce your Heeresgruppe.

You are back in Russia on May 28th. Himmler arrives at the same day. Then everybody is waiting for the Führer. In the afternoon of the arrival day you get a radio message from the air control at Kiev. They received a message of one of the escort fighters. He reports that the pilot of Hitler’s plane had obviously problems with his engines. He tried to touch down. When he landed the pilot of the escort plane could see an explosion. After this there was no more contact with the passengers. You ask where the accident happened and get a detailed description. When you look at the map you see that the plane touched down in the partisan territory. Fortunately one of your infantry divisions is close. You send them the order to go there and scan the area. Then you call Kiev airport again. They tell you that Hitler was on board together with Keitel, Zeitzler, Göring and some adjutants.

Next thing you do is inform Himmler. When he hears the news he gets very nervous. “Reichsführer”, you say, “We must keep our balance now. And we have to reflect very carefully our next steps. Hitler is missed, maybe dead.” After a short discussion he agrees to your proposals. The whole story has to be kept secret. He will only inform the leader of the SD in Berlin, Kaltenbrunner. Kaltenbrunner will take care what happens in the capital. You will inform Guderian in the army head quarter. Himmler will return to Berlin tomorrow morning. You will stay at the front to find Hitler. The operation Zitadelle is stopped. You will change your formation to defense.
After that you send a message to Guderian telling him what happened. Your business is at the front. After Himmler’s departure next morning you call for the SS leaders: Paul Hausser, 2. SS Panzerkorps, Sepp Dietrich, 1.SS Panzerdivision (LSSAH), Walter Krüger, 2.SS Panzerdivision ‘Das Reich’, Max Simon 3. SS Panzerdivision ‘Totenkopf’. You explain the situation to them. They are shocked by the eventuality that Hitler is gone. Simon is very upset: “We must return to Berlin at once! We must fight for the Nationalsozialismus.” Sepp Dietrich shakes his head: “No! We cannot do anything there, now. This is the job of the SS at home. Our duty is to fight the Soviets. And this is more important now than it was before.” You agree: “Think what the Russians will do when they find out. And they will, sooner or later. Maybe they know already! We have to be prepared to stop any Russian attack. Gentlemen, I count on you.” You look at the four men and each of them nods. Hausser says: “Count on us!”

When the meeting is over Dietrich stays for a moment: “Manstein, you can count on me. I know you will do your best to save Germany. So regardless what you intend to do, I will be on your side. I’d even protect you against other Nazi formations!” Then he leaves the room.

Afterwards you arrange a conference with all of your commanders. Before it starts you get a message from the divisions in the partisan territory. They found the plane. It is crashed. Everybody inside is dead. The plane exploded when it touched ground. Probably there had been a bomb on board.
You talk to your division leaders. You tell them the news. Operation Zitadelle is stopped. Your army has to prepare a defensive battle now. The Panzerkorps including the SS divisions will be drawn behind the front. Your infantry divisions will fortify their positions.
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Now that you started you have to act fast and decided. Your first goals are to avoid a civil war, to assume power and to deprive the Nazis of power.

You do not have much time. You have to act before the news is spread. And you have to rely on Guderian:

Guderian will order tank units to occupy Berlin and arrest the leaders of the Nazi party. Then he will talk to the nation in a radio message.

Guderian will shift the blame on Himmler. He will find leaders of the SS and the NSDAP to support him to arrest or kill Himmler and start looking for his accessories. So he will paralyze the system while keeping up appearance.

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King Kurt

11-23-2005, 15:40

It has got to be 2 - if 1 happens all the SS etc will unite to take over and oppose Guderian.
There must be a lot of divide and rule here to keep people guessing. Also, the SS divisions at the front must be weakened or destroyed - a "missjudged "Kursk operation might provide the cover with the key units being overstretched and left stranded with no support would do - Manstein could even use political interference by Hitler/Himmler as an excuse. The German Army has the strength to keep the lid on everything, provided the SS can be neutered. The other factor could be some form of revelation about the Final Solution - this could be used to provoke a sense of horror in the Army - maybe even use it to split the nazi party between those who support it and those who are worried about the long term implications.~:cheers:

Kagemusha

11-23-2005, 16:32

Number two. But Himmler have to be captured before we can announce that he is guilty.If he is loose when we put the blame on him there will be civil war.
Now is the time to contact the major commanders of Wermacht and prepare to take care of the SS if necessary on one huge strike like the Nazis destroyed their own SA troops in the thirties. Also it would be good to reveal the holocaust so we can really show what kind of Demon SS and the reisfuhrer Himler are.
If there are more loyal SS commanders like Sep Dietrich those should be used against the other SS. No is the time to move fast and decisevily.:bow:

Franconicus

11-23-2005, 16:41

Playing the Holocaust card is a two edged sword. M ost of the people won't believe it is true. And many people would be angry if the Jews, communists and criminals were set free. After all they are still under the influence of Nazi propagande and influence. I think this would increase the danger of a civil war!

Kagemusha

11-23-2005, 16:50

I understand your point Franc, but the telling the Holocaust exists doesnt mean that we even can release the people right away, instead we have to chance the camps from concentration camps to refugee camps. And the criminal camps into work camps. One great thing we could establish on probaganda section could be to put Sepp Dietrich in the radio after we blame Himmler. I can see the the text in my eyes already. Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler wants to revenge the Fuhrers death to those who murdered the Fuhrer.
We could turn this fight between the dead Hitler and Himmler, by using the Nazi probaganda machine against itself.I think this would give us the support of many SS divisions. Let Hitler do something good in death, becouse in life he could not.
We can tell the thruth later.~D

Franconicus

11-23-2005, 17:11

Good points!
As far as I know there was no difference between 'normal' concentration camps and working camps for criminals. They were all disguised as working camps. Most of the Germans believed that all the people in the camps were criminals somehow.
Regarding Sepp Dietrich: First of all you have to find out if you can trust him or not. After all he is a Nazi and if he finds out that you killed A.H. he may get dangerous. Then he is more a soldier than a politician. He may fight for you but I doubt that you can use him for propaganda.
I think that you do not time to get all the Waffen-SS divisions and the other formations on your side. You must take them by surprise and have the power before they realize that you are a danger.

We can tell the thruth later. You sound like Gawain! ~D

Kagemusha

11-23-2005, 17:31

About Dietrich i base my propaganda plan on this sentence from Dietrich:

When the meeting is over Dietrich stays for a moment: “Manstein, you can count on me. I know you will do your best to save Germany. So regardless what you intend to do, I will be on your side. I’d even protect you against other Nazi formations!” Then he leaves the room.

If you can convince its good for the Germany to turn against Himmler, i think he will do it.~:)
In the Finnish tribe of Savo, we have a saying that truth is so precious thing that you shouldnt use it too much or you run out of it.~;)

Franconicus

11-24-2005, 09:37

THE CAPITOL

30th June. When Guderian gets your message he knows what to do. Hitler is gone. Guderian has to get the initiative and “blitz” over the Berlin. Even though Guderian does not feel very comfortable he is bent on doing it.

First of all he contacts Generalmajor Fritz Bayerlein.

At the same time another person sits in his Berlin office thinking about the message he received today. It is SS Obergruppenführer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, chief of dreaded SD. He is thinking about the news Himmler gave him today. If it is true there will be tremendous changes in the country. Hitler dead? Göring dead? Who will be the next Führer? Himmler, of course! If Himmler gets promoted he, Kaltenbrunner, will be promoted too. All he has to do is keep the situation under control until Himmler’s arrival.

The phone rings. It is the officer on duty. He apologizes to heckle but he received just a call from a whistle blower. He told him that he heard through the grapevine that some communists are trying to start a subversive action this night. The rumor says that they will occupy the new Reichskanzlei and proclaim a democratic republic.

Kaltenbrunner shakes his head. Is this a joke? However - if Hitler was killed by political enemies…? Maybe they try to use the confusion for a revolution. Of course they do not have the slightest chance to succeed. The whole country is under control of the SS. But anyway – this might be a chance for Kaltenbrunner to demonstrate his loyalty. Himmler told him not to talk to anybody about Hitler’s disappearance. Alright! Then he will make it alone.

He calls the SD Task Force. 50 men, well trained and equipped, ready to do anything Kaltenbrunner asks them to. He leads them directly to the new Reichskanzlei.

In the middle of the night Guderian knocks at the door of Goebbel’s house. The servants try to reject him but he claims to have very important news. So he finally sits face to face with Goebbels. Goebbels is very confused that the general visits him so late at night and what he hears makes him even more confused. Guderian tells him that the Führer is dead, probably killed. What does that mean? Can the Führer die at all? Who killed him? All his enemies are dead or imprisoned. Guderian tells him that Kaltenbrunner and a task force of the SD was about to occupy the Reichskanzlei. He thinks that there is a putsch of parts of the SS. A putsch? From a group inside the party? That is the only explanation. But if Kaltenbrunner is involved Himmler is too.

Guderian keeps on talking. Together with Hitler there was Göring and Keitel. Göring? He was the political heir of Hitler. So who will be the next in the succession? Himmler?

Guderian challenges Goebbels to take the interim leadership. The situation is about to get out of control. The Führer is dead. His heir is dead. The leaders of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe are dead. Himmler is trying to get the leadership. And one thing is certain: If Himmler makes a putsch without the involvement of Goebbels Goebbels’ life is not worth a dime if he succeeds. Goebbels finally resigns and asks Guderian what he wants him to do. Guderian puts a document on the table and says: ‘Sign this! It makes me the high commander of Wehrmacht and gives me the order to hold up order. It orders all authorities to obey and support me.’ Goebbels signs without contradiction. Then Guderian takes the phone and calls SS-Obergruppenführer Gottlob Berger, head of the SS Hauptamt. A couple of minutes later the man arrives. Guderian explains the situation. He demands him to support to keep order and to arrest the murderers of Hitler. Berger agrees.

In the meantime the SD task force had reached the Reichskanzlei. To their surprise they were surrounded by soldiers of the tank troops. They were arrested without any resistance. After that soldiers of the Panzerlehrdivision PLD occupy all relevant places in the town, stations, airports, crossings and broadcast stations. The PLD was formed just a couple of week ago. It consists of the tank training units Panzer-Lehr-Regiment 130, Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regiment 901, Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regiment 902, Panzer-Artillerie-Lehr-Regiment 130, Infantrie Regiment 9. They were relocated to Berlin during the last weeks. All officers were carefully selected by Guderian himself. The commander of the division is Generalmajor Fritz Bayerlein. He served with Guderian and Rommel and both rely on him.

After meeting Goebbels Guderian calls Bayerlein. Soon afterwards tank soldiers guard the house of Goebbels. The imprisoned SD men are thrown into a SS prison. They are guarded by soldiers of the SS and the Wehrmacht.

Guderian is satisfied with the result of this evening. The night is almost gone and his men control the town. He decides to sleep for a couple of hours.

Early next morning Bayerlein wakes him up. He tells Guderian that there was an accident last night. The SS guards heard that Hitler was murdered and that Kaltenbrunner was involved. The guards stormed Kaltenbrunner’s cell and killed him. The Wehrmacht soldiers could not stop them.

Bayerlein has started questioning the captured SD men. When they heard what happened to Kaltenbrunner they confess the conspiracy. Soon there are enough evidences against Himmler. You tell Bayerlein to proceed. You need more names of SS leaders. Then you call Manstein to inform him about the situation.

In the afternoon Himmler arrives at the airport. He is accompanied by a couple of SS men. When the Wehrmacht soldiers try to arrest them they start to shot. The machine gun of an armored personnel carrier ends the lives of Himmler and his men.

1st July. In the evening Goebbels makes a radio speech. He tells the people that Hitler is dead and that he now leads the government until a new one is formed. He also tells the people that the murder is part of a SS putsch.

During the next hours leaders of the SS, especially Gestapo and SD are arrested all over the country. Berger leads the interrogations with maximum brutality. Most of the prisoners confess. Although they claim that they were not directly involved they admit that they knew about the putsch and tell their guards names of other participants, who were more involved than them. So the list of convictable SS leaders is rapidly getting longer.

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Now the news is spread. How do you think the Allies will react? Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill? What about the Axis?

Kraxis

11-24-2005, 17:08

Churchill and Stalin will not like this at all. A clear enemy is better than a reforming Germany, that might or might not continue the current situation.
Churchill will also hate this for the possible chances of a civil war, in which case the Russians might gobble up all of Europe easily.
Both of them can be expected to gear up their warefforts to take advantage of this, in the hope that the coup fails or the new government is weak and thus can't fight well.
Roosevelt, the naive and gullible man, will be gently pleased with this. He sees this as an end to the most troubling horrors. Chances are that he as a person might soften a bit towards Germany, being perhaps less inclined to accept the heavy strategic bombing.

Japan will hardly be bothered with this. They will stay their hand until Germany is stable, then send their assurances of continued alliance. They care little for internal German problems, as long as Germany is active and an ally.

Italy, and Moussolini in particular will definately not like this. Moussolini has come to depend more and more on the power and confidence of Hitler. He lacks a strong powerbase in Italy, so Hitler represented an assurance of his position in Italy. The Italian population on the other hand might actually be pleased, but they will not likely be more staunch in the war unless the coup is perhaps 'exported' to Italy. Problem is just that Italy lacks any successful commander that can nominally take over, so it seems slim that the Italians will actually continue when the invasion comes.
A strong backing for Moussolini is likely the best at the moment for our little coup.

Hungaria's leader, Admiral Horthy (yes an Hungarian admiral) will be shocked at the very least. He was relatively close to Hitler, and it was 'only' his personal relationship that assured Hungarian troops would participate in the east. This might change now... Unless good old Manstein can personally meet him and form a new personal bond.

Rumania is a tough one. The leadership is fairly weak, and might feel pressured to leave the war now that the looming presence of Hitler is gone. That can't be good, given the importance of the Ploesti oilfields. A new very friendly and more open relationship might just be able to salvage the situation there.

Finland couldn't be bothered less politically and personally (in regards to Hitler), but militarily it will clench it's jaw. As long as Germany fights strongly, she is happy. So any reaction for the Finns would be more of fear of Germany breaking down. You can expect swift backing for the new leadership from Finland for the sake of stabilisation.

The various localized Nazi parties in the occupied countries will most likely scream murder (fair enough actually), but they will be of little consequence as they have very little backing.

Sweden might actually become more friendly again, but don't expect any great leaps of trust. The Soviet Union is just over the horizon for them, they won't antagonize them. You might expect some unofficial recognition from them (along the lines of "thank God you got rid of that guy").

Switzerland will follow you with great interest. A fair bit of fear from invasion have been present, but with more sane people at the helm she might ralax a bit. But she will still be staunchly neutral, though Swiss volounteers might increase a bit.

Kagemusha

11-24-2005, 23:00

I think Kraxis pointed out the foreign politics very accurately and i agree with him. But how to continue from this point forwards. That is the tough question.
Now we have the power and and the SS have been neutralized. But the Nazi party is still in power.
So we need to think how to continue this coup and get rid of the Party. So we need a military coup now. Since we lack the Troops to take over whole Germany. I have an pretty radical idea. Since we need to show to the western allies that we want to get peace with them and we also need troops to prevent the Nazi party from getting its act together. I suggest we make a oneside ceasefire with the Western Allies and pull our military out of France.Netherlands and Belgium. It will create an power vacuum there and since many of the resistance groups are communists.It will lead into somekind of Communist coupe in the occupied France.That the Western Allies cant and wont allow.
For the German people we have to say loud and clear: The Soviets and Communism is our enemy.So we need to crack Goebbels to do that. Allies have to interfere into situation in France, and voila we have an common enemy,the communists and the Soviet Union. We also get our Western troops in Germany and after that we can do what we want with the Nazis. In East we have to remain in defence.But we dont need to have a static defence there anymore that Hitler insisted. We can actually start using some Strategy again in our manouvers.
Also we have to brake our alliance with the Japanese.Damned this is getting complicated.
exellent story Franconicus- san.:bow:

Franconicus

11-25-2005, 08:02

Welcome Kraxis! It is a honor and a pleasure to see you here!:bow:

I agree with your analysis about Rosevelt and Churchill. The big question is if they still insist on their 'unconditional surrender'? This is one thing the German generals would never accept.
I agree that Churchill will want to accelerate the attacks on Germany. However, what can he do? British strategy is not very flexible, more planned on the long run. I do not think he will land in France in 1943.
Roosevelt? Does he want to fight the Germans any longer. Risk the blood of US soldiers - what for? Maybe heavy bombing is enough?

The eastern countries are not a big issue. Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Finland, what are their options. If Germany looses the Soviets will eat them alive. No matter if they try to change sides. And if the Germans and Soviets find an agreement - this might be even worse.
Maybe I am wrong: :scared: http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1943/jul1943/f01jul43.htm

Japan does not bother me at all. Let them do their war.

kagemusha,

Together with the SS the NSDAP lost most of its power. Please note that all the police was controlled by the SS. That is past. There is no clear leader of the Nazis. We still need Goebbels to keep the party quiet. But we have to install a government as well. There should be some democrats in it.

What are the goals of Guderian and Manstein. Well, compared to Hitler they are saints, but they are still - let's say - German patriots. So they want to have a German domination in Europe. Hell, they fought a lot for that and now they should give it up? Remember that they still believe in a German victory.

Germany has two options. First, make peace with the US and GB. However, both will not accept that easiliy. First you have to get rid of Goebbels and second you must show them that Germany is willing and able to fight until the end.
The second option is to find an arrangement with Stalin. Maybe not your first choice, but if the western allies do not want to co-operate? But to come to an agreeement with Stalin you need a big victory first too.

Anyway, to make peace you have to beat the Soviets!

Leaving the occupied countries in the west is an interesting option. Of course this has to be carefully planned. And you must have the right timing! Or this will lead to a desaster!!

There are two other issues:
What are we going to do with the prisoners in the KZ? If we release them this might cause a civil war. Or at least weaken the will to fight. If we do not - then we are not better than the Nazis.
What are we going to do about the foreign workers? We need them to increase our production.~:confused:

Franconicus

11-28-2005, 09:39

Chapter 7:

THE DUCE

July 1st. In Rome there is Benito Mussolini thinking what the news mean to him. He knew that the situation was critical before. He was wondering how to break the alliance with Hitler and make peace with the Allied. He knows that he will never win the empire he dreamed of. In this war, he can only loose. And he does not know if he can rely on his people or even on his own party.
Now Hitler is dead, murdered by his own people. Mussolini really does not know what to do. Late at night a crowd of people come to his house. It is Marshall Pietro Badoglio and some other members of the Fascistic Council. They tell him that the council decided to end this war. Now that Hitler is gone they do not feel the need to keep the alliance with Germany. They want Mussolini’s demission and tell him that the king already agreed. Mussolini shows no reaction at all. He follows Badoglio. However on the way to the residence of the king the car is stopped by a passenger car and two trucks. German paratroops leave the trucks and encircle Bodoglio’s car. A German general comes out of the car to Mussolini. It is General Student. He says: “Duce, may I bring you back to your office? My men will guard you. We already arrested the members of the Fascist Council. Marshal Badoglio, would you please follow these men?”
Next morning Mussolini makes a radio speech. He assures the new German government the full support and calls the Italian people to fight side by side with their German comrades against the enemy.

STALIN

When Stalin gets the news about Hitler he is shocked. How could this happen? He calls for General Onjanow, Director Intelligence Germany.

When the intelligence officer enters Stalin asks:
“Did you hear the latest news from Germany, Onjanow?”
“Yes, Comrade Stalin, Hitler is dead!”
“Excellent! Now tell me how this happened!”
“Well, we do not know exactly what happened, as yet. Obviously he wanted to visit the troops at the Kursk front. We knew that several important persons were on their way, but we thought it was only Himmler and Keitel.”
“Ah, you thought! And what does the Director Intelligence Germany think about his death?”
“Well, to be honest, we have no explanation so far.”
“No explanation? Could it be that German communists did it?”
“No, not as far as we know.”
“Not as far as you know? What about German conservatives, or military?”
“We have no indices for that.”
“Did we get any information from London?”
“No! The latest information was about the beginning of the German operations at Kursk. They told us they would start at July 5th.”
“So you do not know anything at all!”
“Maybe it was just an accident!”
“Comrade General, go home right now and stay there. You are under arrest.”
”Yes, Comrade Stalin!” The man salutes and leaves the office.

Stalin is very angry. Once more he feels that he is surrounded by incompetence.
Hitler is dead and he has no information what is going on. Well, at least it is clear that it was not a communist action. So it must have been the conservatives. Military or even men from the Nazi party. If this is right then they have contacted the Anglo-Americans first. Maybe it was engineered by the Brits? Doesn’t it look like a Churchill plan? Then his Western Allies may soon make peace with the Germans. Stalin knows very well that they never were in a hurry to attack Germany. And he knows that Churchill hates communists even more than fascists. Sure, they send weapons. But the reason for this is that they are happy that Germans and Russians are killing each others. How many allied soldiers died in the war? And how many were British or Americans?
What if the Americans and the British make peace while the German armies are still in Russia? Then the Soviets will have to fight alone. Maybe even against the British and the Americans, too. They could use this chance to wipe out communism.

The more he thinks about it the more he sees how dangerous the situation is.

In the afternoon the Soviet General Staff Stavka meets. Stalin looks at his commanders. General Zhukov explains the situation at the Central and Woronesch Front. He says that the expected attack did not take place. Instead the Germans are pulling their tank formations back. Partisans observed big railway traffic bringing tanks to the west. There are also rumors that new infantry divisions arrive. Perhaps these are Rumanians. All those facts lead to the conclusion that the Germans are changing to a defensive formation.

Stalin stands up and says: “Comrades, now that Hitler is dead we have a complete different scenario. We do not know what is going on exactly. But we must expect the worst. Now is a time of confusion, not only for us but also for the Germans and the western countries. It might happen that our western allies will find an agreement with the German fascists and will attack us together with them. Our only chance is to use the current confusion and attack the German before they rearrange. We must throw them out of our country before they have time to find an arrangement against us.
I want the Stavka to prepare operation plans to push the Germans out of the country. I want a joint strike of all fronts. These operations have to start within two weeks.”
Zhukov replies: “Comrade Stalin, it is impossible to start an operation of this size within two weeks. Most of our troops are concentrated in the Central, the Woronesch and the Steppe Front. 20 percent of our field divisions, 35 percent of our tanks and 27 percent of our planes are concentrated at this small area. And these forces are not prepared for an offensive operation.”
Stalin remains silent for a moment. Then he says with a soft voice: “Comrade Zhukov, if you are not able someone else will! I expect to see your plans within a week. The meeting is over!”

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CHURCHILL

At the same time there are emergency sessions at London. Also here intelligence has not given any advance warning.

Churchill comes pretty fast to the conclusion that Himmler was the driver of this putsch. But Himmler is dead too. So, who will be the new German leader?

There are two possible scenarios – and Churchill fears both of them:
German army collapses. Then the Soviet will advance rapidly and probably control all Central Europe including Germany. A communist controlled super Europe – that is Churchill’s nightmare.
Germany and Russia find an agreement. They did it before and why shouldn’t they do it again, now that Hitler is gone. Then Germany will concentrate its forces against Britain. And Britain will have to enforce his armies in India and Iraq too. Though Churchill does not doubt that GB will win this war he knows that it will take a long time. But how long will the British be willing to fight, now that the enemy is no longer a cruel fascist dictator? And what about the allies? Canada, Australia, South Africa? When will they be tired of this war? And the US?

How does the new situation affect the war? Right now the Allies accumulate troops for the invasion of Sicily. Extended bombing raids against German towns are planned for the near future. And the battle in the Atlantic is still not over – even though the Krauts are very quiet there in the moment.

Churchill feels that this is a critical moment. His decisions will change the course of the world. He has to find a way to parry every move of the Germans or Russians. Suddenly he has an idea. Still dim but it is getting clearer and clearer.

Britain has to be ready to stop the Soviets in case Germany collapses. It also must have a plan to attack Germany immediately in case Russia quits the alliance. Attacking Italy does not thread the Germans. And the invasion of France is too difficult. The Krauts had three years to fortify the coast. But why not attack the Germans where they are weak?

What if the troops who are now waiting in Northern Africa were redirected to the Black Sea? If they attack Bulgaria instead of Italy? Bulgaria would not try to resist. They would be happy to leave the axis and be protected against the Soviets. Romania would follow as well. The German eastern front would collapse and the British and US troops could march north to take Hungary and Poland. Controlling the Romanian oil and attacking Germany from two sides would bring the Allies in a position where they can end the war without the support of the Russians.

But is this feasible? If Turkey can be argued in it then the British navy would control the sea. Of course there would be some trouble with the German air force. But Germany would be taken by surprise and before they know what is going on the Allies would control a big part of Bulgaria.

Churchill calls his staff and asks them about their opinions. In general, they agree, but they raise some pleas. What to do if the Turks will not cooperate? And how to convince the Americans? The Yanks would like to attack the Germans at there strongest point and then march straight to Berlin. Churchill shakes his head. So much power and no idea about strategy. But the Americans demand the leadership of the European operation, although it is the British who are fighting for years now and know the situation in Europe so well.

After the discussion there are three options:

Follow Churchill’s plans. Stop Husky and negotiate with Turkey! If they agree attack the German flank by landing at Bulgaria. However, this may stress the relation to America.
Like 1.. But also prepare a landing at Greece just in case the Turks will not cooperate. However, marching through Greece will be much harder.
Forget Churchill’s idea. Nor Turkey neither the US will agree. So go on as planned and execute Husky.

Kraxis

11-28-2005, 15:06

So now we are the Allies?

#2 seems the best... Husky is too easily halted.

Kagemusha

11-28-2005, 16:04

Aargh! This is coming more and more complicated. I would say number 1). But this is complitely biased answer towards Germans. Landing in the Bulgaria will lead in problems with the Soviets in the long run becouse they think Bulgaria is on their power circle. :bow:

Franconicus

11-29-2005, 08:26

Kagemusha,
Who said it would be easy to kill A.H. and end war?
Regarding the Soviets? Churchill surely expects trouble. Poland will cause trouble, because it is in the power circle of both. Churchill is not the kind of man who wants to avoid trouble. The only issue is trying to avoid trouble until Germany is done or not?

Kraxis,
Maybe I should have posted the ‘rules’ before.

The purpose of this story is to think about how Manstein could have ended the war. I know that I cannot rewrite history, but I want to find a possible or even likely scenario.

This is the agenda:
1) Find a way to kill A.H. and do it
2) Get control over Germany
3) Make the new strategic setup for the other nations
4) Go back on the battle field and fight the decisive battle
5) End

Although I have an agenda this does not mean that the story is already written. In fact I do not know exactly what the next steps are or if the story will really follow the agenda at all. And the end is completely open.

This is a kind of brain storm. So to proceed I need input, lots of input. Sometime I may ask for general information, sometimes I may give different options. The MONASTARY can provide the different views of people from a lot of different countries. This is what I need to avoid writing a ‘German’ story.

But without feedback, this story will soon end. Without kagemusha Hitler would still be alive! Thanks kage!!:bow:

I think as soon as the fighting starts again the story should stay at one side.

For those who want to jump on our little mind game here a short status:

Hitler is dead. The SS is neutralized. At the moment Manstein, Guderian and Rommel control the government. Zitadelle has been stopped. Italian government is controlled by the Germans. Stalin already decided to attack asap. Churchill was wondering if he should change the strategy. So far the result of the poll is ‘undecided’.

Kagemusha

11-29-2005, 10:34

Thanks for the kind words Franconicus.:bow: How i see this is that its essential for the survival of the Germany and whole East Europe to turn The Allies against eachother. Now that there is no more idealogigal war between Germany and the Western allies. We should try to pursuit peace negotiations with the Western allies. Maybe Finland could help, becouse they had an diplomatic contact to United States through the whole war provided by Sweden.
Btw i disagree on the Italian coup.I think the only way to open the Western eyes towards our cause is to show them that there might be even worse ruling parties, then German military.(Read communist coup)~;)

King Kurt

11-29-2005, 11:39

Franconius - sorry there has been no input from me recently - too busy at work!!
My thoughts;

1) Stalin's sounds about right - I think that Zukov would be more aggressive, throw everything against the roumanians, attack every where, encourage all communist resistance groups across Europe to step up activities to keep the pot boiling.

2) Italy sounds right - I am sure that Mussolini still will have his date with a lamp post.

3) Churchill sounds wrong - I can't see him going for Bulgaria - the scar of the Dardenelles must still be on his mind. Even if the Turks agreed passage, assistance etc - not that likely I would say, memories of WW1, strong links with Germany etc - any invasion force going through the Dardenelles would be a sitting duck for air and sub attack. So I see the following as more likely.
Churchill likes the soft southern belly approach, so what about attacks on some of the following - Sardina, Corsica for air bases to cover the invasion of Southern France, Greece - Churchill was fascinated with it and surpressed the Communist revolt at the end of the war - again for airbases to cover an invasion of yugoslavia to link up with the partisans. Historical hindsight says that invading Scilly and Italy were, on the whole, a bit of a waste - very defensable ground all the way to Switzaland. It's only use is to take Italy out the war - and that effectively happened with Mussolini needing student's assistance as the Italian forces are obliviously falling apart. If i was Churchill, I would also order another, bigger, Dieppe style raid - (hopefully with all the lessons of the previous year remembered) to see what transpires. Churchill, I think, would still see the defeat of Germany as the main aim of their war effort. The memories of the last 4 years would not dissappear overnight - he would worry about the soviets - don't want to change Europe dominated by Germany to Europe dominated by russia - but the Soviets are still facing the vast majority of the German forces and the German mobile forces are required to respond to uprisings in Germany and the occupied territories as well as the inevietable Soviet attack (Churchill's intellegence would be very aware of that)
4) The unknown is the Americans. Mid 43 sees them worried about Japan - Guadacanal etc - and they need the Brits for all of that, if only for the bases of India and Austrailia. Also, as more emerges about the final solution, the Americans will want to bring Germany to book. Finally, they need a Europe which is in their sphere for trade - the European market is still the principle place for American goods, so I see them as keeping the pressure on through bombing and working with the Brits.

So - a few thoughts to keep the pot boiling. The problem Manstein has is that all over Europe everybody has millions of reasons to mistrust and hate the Germans, so the " Hitler was a bad man and we were only obeying orders, so let's be friends" approach is not going to work. 43 was the period of the war when the Allies "unconditional surrender" approach appears, so I see tough times ahead for Manstein.~:cheers:

Franconicus

11-30-2005, 09:07

Franconicus

11-30-2005, 09:47

Chapter 8:

THE WESTERN ALLIES

Same time Roosevelt and his Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall have a conference Washington. Roosevelt wonders if it is possible to find an agreement with the new German government. Maybe it is not necessary to invade the European mainland. That would reduce the cost of American lives and the military could focus on Japan. He wants to stop all activities of the army. The bombing should be enough at the moment.

Marshall tells him that it is far too late to stop ‘Husky’. Everything is ready and scheduled.

Roosevelt gives in. So the landing in Sicily will take place. Regarding Normandy he postpones any decision. Staff shall prepare everything. No one knows which way Germany will go actually. Maybe it is good to have the option to attack the German forces directly at France and then go straight to Berlin. Marshall agrees.

Marshall reminds the president that the British still oppose the French plans and favor operations in the Med.. Roosevelt smiles: “I know. Our British friends love to beat about the bush. Now that Hitler is gone there is absolutely no reason to go a long way round. If necessary we will go straight to Berlin. This I promise to you. And I have no doubt that Winston has the same opinion. I will call him this evening. Maybe we should consult Uncle Joe immediately, too!”

Late in the evening Roosevelt and Churchill have a long phone conference. After a long controversial discussion they agree to land in Sicily according plan. The US and British staff will discuss where the next operations will take place.

Churchill and Roosevelt agree to meet mid of July to make the final decision and to adjust the new strategy, the conditions for peace talks and the relationship to Stalin. Before that there will be no direct consultations with Stalin.

Roosevelt insists to contact the new German government as soon as possible. Churchill rushes him not to start any consultations as long as the British American conditions are not arranged.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ZHUKOV

July 8th. After the meeting with Stalin Zhukov wonders what to do. Most of the Soviet forces are concentrated at the Kursk area. And those are not prepared for any prompt offensive operation.

Stalin expects the German to be in confusion. Maybe he is right. Maybe now is the time to attack.

Zhukov meets the commanders of the three Kursk fronts, Rokkosovsky, Vatutin and Konew. They tell him that recon shows that the Germans are leaving. It seems that the Germans are pulling their tank divisions back. Partisans report of an endless stream of German troops heading west. The whole HGr. Süd is on the move. At Kursk Romanian divisions replace German. Latest reports tell that the same happens at HGr. Mitte. Same reports from the North Caucasus and South Fronts. In the south the Germans seem to prepare the clearance of the Kuban mouth and maybe even Crimea. From north to south the German lines are getting thinner and thinner.

What are the intentions of the fascists? Are they retreating? Are they going to fight an invasion of the Americans? Are they going back to Germany to fight a civil war? Did the new German government decide to leave Russia? Or – is this nothing but a big trap?

Zhukov hates the situation. He does not know who is leading the German forces now. What are his plans? He feels a bit helpless. Twice the Germans managed to take the Russians by surprise. In 1941 when nobody expected a German invasion and in 1942 when they attacked at the southern section instead attacking Moscow for the second time. Both times the Russians paid a huge price. And when they finally thought they could chase the Germans after the battle of Stalingrad this Manstein suddenly conjured up some tank corps and turned the Russian invasion into a bloody disaster.

Anyway, Zhukov remembers Stalin’s words and he knows that he has no choice. He has to attack and hope for the best. So he reminds his commander of Stalin’s order and demands their proposals.

Rokkosovsky makes his proposal: “Let the entire south wing attack. This includes 7 fronts from Bryansk to North Caucasus. Each front is stronger than its German opponent. We will chase the Germans out of Ukraine.”

Zhukov shakes his head: “This is far too dangerous. We do not know where the German tanks are. If we act without care we may run into a trap like we did this spring.”

Vatutin agrees: “Your right, General Zhukov! The most dangerous parts of the German army are the tank corps. Intelligence reports that they have new improved tank models. Maybe the T34 is outgunned now. We must beat them before we launch a big invasion. But how can we beat them if we do not know where they are? Let’s see if comrade Konew knows the answer!”

“Of course I do, Vatutin! We have to attack something that is so precious to the Germans that they will attack us. Then we can use our advantage regarding ATGs, too.”

“I see we have the same idea.” Vatutin replies. “So let us start the operation with our three fronts. We have the most tank units in the whole army. And thousands of ATGs. Let’s break through the German lines. Then stop Central and Voronesz while Steppe turns south to attack Charkow. If we are lucky we can encircle the 8th army! I bet Fritz will attack us then!”

Konew disagrees: “No, no, no! Charkow is nothing but ruins. I doubt that the Germans will try to defend it. And I doubt that Stalin wants only one front to attack. No! We must think big! Let’s break through the lines and then keep on pushing straight westwards! Voronesz will go straight to Kiev while the other fronts secure the flanks. The Germans will try to stop us. Kiev is too valuable to loose. Then we have all three fronts ready for the big strike. Once we defeated the German tanks Voronesz and Central can take Kiev while Steppe heads for Tscherkassy and crosses the Dnjepr there. The other fronts – Bryansk, Southwestern, South and North Caucasus can then join the attack. And while they attack the Germans frontal Steppe will break in their rear and take Odessa. Central and Voronesz can assist and cover this operation. Finally we will cut off the entire Heeresgruppe Süd!”

Now Zhukov has to decide.

Rokkosovsky’s proposal: Attack at the entire front. If the Germans are really in disorder this might be the best decision. However you have no idea where those damned German tanks are. If they ambush you this operation could end as a big fiasco.
Vatutin’s plan: Start with a small scale attack. Taking Charkow would certainly threaten the Donesz area and give you a good position for further attacks. However, Stalin will not be very happy to see only one front fight.
Konew’s plan: Cutting off the entire Heeresgruppe! Stalin will love this plan. It would defeat the Germans at the southern area completely and open the door to Romania. This could end the war. But isn’t this too daring?

King Kurt

11-30-2005, 13:21

Franconicus

11-30-2005, 15:51

Now this is tricky. If we act as Russians, we probably choose 1 or 3 with 1 being favourite as this is similar to what happened in 1944. It also seems the more cautious, all out attack version. With our inside knowledge maybe 2 is better - an initial strong probe, some sucess then possible exploitation - but the Russians don't know the true picture.

So I think 1 - it seems the most Russian and Rokkosovsky was Zhukov's (and mine!) favorite general.

As for Churchill, I think a large scale Dieppe raid would appeal to him. It could stir up a hornet's nest and if things go well, then it could be expanded. If it goes badly then just withdraw. Its main use would be to draw a response from the Germans - and the Vichy French - would the Vichy government see it as an opportunity to cut their losses and come back to the Allies? Memories of Oran might be a problem - but they didn't put up a fight to Torch did they.~:cheers:
King,

1) is what they did after Kursk, when the German tank divisions were exhausted and German troops were send to the western fronts. So our scenario is a bit different. ~:)
3) is similar to the operation early this year when Manstein managed to stop them. So I would not call it 'Not Russian'!
But I do not want to influence you. Aren't you called 'hammer of the east'?~:cheers:

Regarding Vichy: Petain has nothing to win when the Allies take France and bring de Gaule. Though he will not support the Germans I doubt that he will ever fight with the Allies. His army is a different thing. Most of his troops wont fight the allies if they attack France. Some may even join them.

Dieppe: What can Churchill win with another small landing? Although he controls the sea the Grman Luftwaffe is still fighting and the German army in France is strong enough to fight a small scale invasion. Probably the German staff would call some units from Russia to enforce France; but that is not what Churchill wants right now. And theUS would be angry too.

King Kurt

11-30-2005, 18:01

King,

1) is what they did after Kursk, when the German tank divisions were exhausted and German troops were send to the western fronts. So our scenario is a bit different. ~:)
3) is similar to the operation early this year when Manstein managed to stop them. So I would not call it 'Not Russian'!
But I do not want to influence you. Aren't you called 'hammer of the east'?~:cheers:.

Both seem quite Russian to me, but the more Russian seems 1) - attack all along the line and find the weakness as opposed to long sweeping encircling attacks. As for the "Hammer of the East" - that is from my MTW exploits as the English in a recent campaign as opposed to anything deeper!! After more recent exploits, it should be changed to destroyer of the Welsh!!

Regarding Vichy: Petain has nothing to win when the Allies take France and bring de Gaule. Though he will not support the Germans I doubt that he will ever fight with the Allies. His army is a different thing. Most of his troops wont fight the allies if they attack France. Some may even join them..

I just see the Vichy involvement as another angle - sort of rats leaving the sinking ship etc - Petain wouldn't welcome DeGaulle, but a coup or revolt - who knows??

Dieppe: What can Churchill win with another small landing? Although he controls the sea the Grman Luftwaffe is still fighting and the German army in France is strong enough to fight a small scale invasion. Probably the German staff would call some units from Russia to enforce France; but that is not what Churchill wants right now. And theUS would be angry too.

I threw Dieppe in as another possibility - Churchill seemed to love these sort of adventures and it could spark a French/ Vichy uprising, especially if the germans become embroiled in some form of struggle in Germany.

Overall, I think the allies would seek to keep the germans off balance and exploit what happens.~:cheers:

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 08:37

Churchill already has a new operation against Germany on stock: GOMORRHA. It is already prepared and ready to launch. In combination with Husky - let's see how the Krauts react!

In Germany there is now a kind of hidden military government, formed by Guderian, Rommel and Manstein. Just like this story is ruled by the three K's: King Kurt, kagemusha and Kraxis. ~:joker: I wonder what strategy the other two prefer for the Russians.

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 11:17

kagemusha,
I do not think that it is easy to find an agreement with US and GB - though not impossible either. You cannot say, well the Nazis were the bad guys who bombed your towns and sunk your ships, but we are German military and we are different. The best card is the fear of communism. At least Churchill does not want to have a communist European mainland. Roosevelt - I guess he does not care.
Another option is to make peace with Stalin. Although our three generals would not like that this option would increase the pressure on the US.
Please do not forget that the German military wants to have a German domination in Europe.

I think at this time after the Stalingrad and US joining on the war.Any field Marshall with half of brains know that the military victory for Germany is out of the question.
I believe that the most areas Germany could claim in a peace would the Eastern Prussia,Sudeten land,Elsas Lothringen and maybe that the Austria would unite with the Germany.
Our military is too stretched at the moment.We should leave from the areas that are not essential to our survival and protect the Fatherland.
Only way we can think that the Western Allies are willing to make peace with us is to make the Communist threat more scary then us.
I think we should continue the fight against Soviets.And infact i would be pleased to see a major Soviet attack against our forces at this stage.At the moment we still have the forces Germany possessed prior to the Battle of Kursk,and major Soviet attack against these forces could lead even more devastating defeat for the Soviets then our defeat against them in Stalingrad.
If they think they have impressive antitank guns,let them attack against our 88mm tank killers.:knight:

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 11:24

kagemusha,

1) Which areas would you give up? And what exactly would you do to make peace with the US?

2) Which option do you chose for Zhukov?

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 12:23

kagemusha,

1) Which areas would you give up? And what exactly would you do to make peace with the US?

2) Which option do you chose for Zhukov?

1) France.The Communist coup after the withdraw of our our forces it would be more then likely that an communist coup would accur there. Also the Western Allies have no capacity in this point to immediately send in enough soldiers to take control of the area.And if they do,would they like to take the casulties for crossing the Canal and Mediterranian, under our attacks becouse they just dont want make a cease fire with us based on principle.
We would still hold Netherlands,Belgium,Denmark and Norway for stakes for better conditions in the possible peace negotations.

2) option number 1)If the Soviets assault every where they dont stand a chance. Without a concentrated attack on some weak point it will be like the wawes against a beach rock.(Notice its completely biased answer towards the Germans).~;)

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 12:48

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 16:54

1) I will think about it! I guess I have to prepare a peace offer, but first I have to install a government ~;)
2) Please try to chose what is best and mostlikely for the Russians. I want this scenario to be as plausible as possible. It is a pity that we do not have any Russian or American members on board.

Ok Franconicus - san.~:) If i were the Russian commander i would choose the option 2) The Vatutins plan. A small class attack would not lead into big catastrophy,and if the Germans would be stupid enough they could even start an counter attack and be lured into trap.

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 17:01

So one vote for Rokkosovsky's plan, one vote for Vatutin and no vote for Konew.
We have not enough votes for a good democracy ~:cool:

Kraxis

12-01-2005, 17:02

Hmmm... Zhukov was a bright man who didn't like Stalin's idea one bit, but he did them to his best ability.

So Stalin want #1, but Zhukov is very much against that, so it is out. #2 is moer what Zhukov wants. A limited offensive to test the Germans and prepare. But here Stalin will object too much for safety.

#3 on the other hand will be so-so with both thus it is the only option Zhukov will entertain to any degree. But trouble is that it is Konev that proposed it (I would swap persons on #1 and #2, Rokossovsky was a brilliant tactician while Vatutin was more classical Russian), and Zhukov wasn't too keen on him.

#3 it has to be.

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 17:06

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 17:07

So now we have one vote for each.Who is going to give the decisive vote?:duel:
Edit:GAH!Franc beated me.~:mecry:

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 17:10

No I didn't!
Maybe you should take a look at the map. I think the strategic plan is very important. So we better think twice (or threetimes) ~:cheers: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Karte_Ukraine.png

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 17:21

You are right.~:cheers: Here is a link that shows the Kursk Operation and also almost the whole Eastern Front in 1943.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Eastern_Front_1943-02_to_1943-08.png

JimBob

12-02-2005, 01:56

Konew’s plan: Cutting off the entire Heeresgruppe! Stalin will love this plan. It would defeat the Germans at the southern area completely and open the door to Romania. This could end the war. But isn’t this too daring?
Stalin would leap at this plan. He would see it as a second Uranus and would likely be giddy (not often do I describe dictators as giddy) at how a victory like that would look. And since it is Stalin's decision, #3.

Franconicus

12-02-2005, 08:19

Thank you JimBob, you really saved my day ~:cheers:
It's good to have an American on board. Maybe you can help us with the next question?

So after a strong finish number three made it: Konew's plan. So let's give Zhukov a break to think about the details. We have to fix some details before the fighting can start again:

THE NEW GERMAN GOVERNMENT

Just a couple of hours after Himmler’s death you arrive. You talk with Guderian and Rommel. You are very satisfied with the situation so far. In fact it is just the three of you that rule the country now. July 2nd you have a meeting of the new formed government formed:

Goebbels, pro forma Kanzler
Guderian, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
von Manstein, Commander-in-Chief East, responsible for the operations against Russia
Rommel, Commander-in-Chief West, responsible for all fronts against the western allies
Galland, Commander of the Luftwaffe
Dönitz, Großadmiral of the Kriegsmarine
Speer, Armament Minister
Ameluxen, Interior Minister
Adenauer, Foreign Minister
Graf Schwerin von Krosigk, Finance Minister

Rudolf Amelunxen and Konrad Adenauer are former members of the Zentrum party. Adenauer has excellent connections to the Vatican and to the Ford Motor Company.

Guderian opens the first meeting. He explains the goals: Keep the order, install a constitutional state, end the war against the US and GB, defeat the Soviets and install a German state in the borders of 1939.

He shortly summarizes the activities since Hitler’s death. The leaders of the putsch are arrested; the structures of the SS are battered. The next steps will be the execution of the SS as a political organization.

Rommel and you report of the situation at the fronts. You estimate that the Russians will soon attack with the emphasis at the south.

Rommel talks about the threat of an Allied landing in the next of weeks. Possible targets are Greece, Italy or Southern France.

Dönitz describes the naval situation. The Med is under control of the western allies. The big surface ships cannot operate any longer. Radar technology and very long range planes made the losses of the submarines raise dramatically, while their successes are decreasing. He ordered to stop the fighting until new improved submarine types are available. Only a small number is currently attacking ‘soft spots’.

Galland’s analysis of the air war is not pleasant. The Luftwaffe is in defense everywhere. The losses in Africa and in Russia are devastating. At no front the Luftwaffe is able to keep initiative. And Germany will soon have to face a new Allied offensive over the home territory. The Luftwaffe is not prepared for this challenge. Galland demands to put a strong focus on the fighter production. The bombing of GB leads to nothing. Resources must be taken from the bombers. You contradict. You need more support on the Russian battle ground. But Galland insists: If we do not try to get back the domination in the air now, we will loose it forever. Speer and Rommel support his position. Galland also says that he is enthused by the new jet fighter of Messerschmidt. This is the weapon to stop the Allied bomber armadas. One jet will be worth 4 conventional fighters.

Speer promises to increase the production of tanks and planes. His target is a 50% increase in 1943 and the same in 1944. This will include new technology weapons like the Tiger or Panther tank. The Me262 had already its start of production. Other weapons are in development.

To increase the production Speer demands support to reach his goals. Massive bomb raids at day must be prevented. Additionally he needs hundred thousands of slave labors.

Adenauer gives an overview of the external situation. Stalingrad has damaged the image of Germany. Istanbul finally decided not to join the war against Russia. Should the Germans loose Crimea they might even join the Allies.

The situation in Rumania is very critical. The government there will probably try to make peace with Russia in case Germany looses Crimea. Hungary and Finland are still on our side. Adenauer will meet the ambassadors tomorrow. Manstein offers to visit Romania on his way back. He will ensure the Romanian leader that he will keep beat the Soviets.

Italy is most critical. The government of Mussolini is not strong. Further more the Duce is capricious and may try to make peace himself. The Italian army is neither willing nor able to fight the Western Allies. Two German divisions are currently supporting the Italian troops at Sicily: The Panzerdivision ‘Hermann Göring’ and a Panzergrenadierdivision. General Student concentrated 20,000 paratroops in the surroundings of Rome. Since last night Student and his men control Rome and the Italian government.

At the first meeting you make some important decisions:

1. Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.
2. All prisons including the KZ will be under control of the Interior Minister. For a period the Wehrmacht will guard the prisoners and take care of food and medical care.
3. All executions have to be approved by the Interior Minister. Excluded are all convictions from the military courts.
4. Manstein will prepare a defensive operation to stop the foreseeable Russian invasion. The eastern front has priority. The goal is a decisive victory against the Russians and a good defensive line for the winter. Then troops will be released for other fronts.
5. Rommel will hold off any operations of the allies in the Med. He will also assure that the Italian government stays at the side of Germany.
6. The submarines will return to their bases and the bomb raids against GB will be stopped at once. The fighters will continue to repel Allies’ bomber raids.
7. The production of tanks and planes will be increased. Speer promises an increase of at least 50% in 1943 and in 1944.
8. The production of fighters and the training of fighter pilots have priority. The production of the Me262 will be accelerated. The organization for an effective home defense will be implemented at once.
9. A peace offer will be prepared. Diplomatic contacts will be built up to London and Washington immediately.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

WAR vs. BUSINESS

While the new German government starts to work the President of the United States meets representatives of the industry. The delegation is composed of Thomas J. Watson, IBM and President of the International Chamber of Commerce, ‘General’ William S. Knudson, former GM, now member of the National Defense Advisory Commission, Alfred Pritchard Sloan, Jr. (GM), Walter C. Teagle (Standard Oil), Prescott Bush and Henry Ford (Ford Motor Company). These men represent the biggest American industry companies.
Sloan starts the talking: ‘Mister President, first of all let me thank you that you for greeting us. You know all of us and know that we are strong American patriots. You know that we did the best we could to supply our boys with the equipment they need to fight fascism. We asked for this meeting because we all are concerned of the latest development in Europe and we would like to offer the government our advice and support to react in an appropriate way. But before we start the conversation please let me give you the best regards from Mr. Rockefeller. He shares our concerns and supports our visit.’
Roosevelt looks surprised: “Well, gentlemen, I thank you for your offer. What exactly are your concerns?”
Ford piped out: “The new situation in Europe. Hitler is dead. Isn’t it time to adjust the American foreign policy? We think that there is a good chance to come to an agreement with the German government. Most of the Germans are not mad fascists but reasonable businessmen. So I guess there should be a way to end this crazy war. Of course the Germans are worried about communism. But who would not in their position? I always thought that it was wrong for the US to support stalinism.”
Knudson cuts in on him: ‘’Ford wants to say that destroying Germany may not be the best strategy for America now. If Germany accepts a Europe of free and democratic nations and a free market, why should be bomb them? Do not forget that Germany is a strong bastion against communism, Mr. President. So why weaken them? If we find an arrangement with the Germans we could easily control the Soviets and we could concentrate our military efforts on Japan“.

“Germany would have to proof that it wants to return to a democracy of cause, Mr. President. And it would have to make concessions regarding the conquered territory. But an agreement is feasible. We could help you to contact the right persons at Berlin. It would be honor to serve our country this way”.
“Gentlemen, thank you all for your visit! I will think about your offer. If I made up my mind I will tell!”
What is Roosevelt going to do?

Keep on fighting until the unconditional surrender of Germany.
Listen to the advice, contact the Germans and send them the conditions for peace negotiations.
Wait until the situation is clearer and, first of all, consult Churchill and Stalin.

King Kurt

12-02-2005, 12:03

No truck with these appeasers - press on for unconditional surrender. Twice in the last 30 years the germans have thrown Europe in to choas with their militaristic ambitions, why let them off the hook now. Germany and Russia can exhaust themselves in the east and the US has a massive market they can dominate with their untouched economy while Europe's shattered economy will be totally reliant on the US for recovery. 40 years after the war ends every body will drink Coke a cola (hang on isn't that what happened in real life???) Twice this century Americans have had to die in Europe to solve its problems, to leave a strong Germany risks coming back again.~:cheers:

Kagemusha

12-02-2005, 12:11

I think the Tycoons have a point.But my answer will be number 3). At the moment US is still at war with the Germany and we should not send separate peace offerings without GB and other Western Allies knowing about it.We should contact Churchill and other Western allies leaders maybe in a secret meeting. At the moment we should also try to keep Stalin under the belief that everything is going as promised. In a military side we should postpone any major operations before the situation clears up. We should also contact someone in the German government secretly,so we could really find out whats happening there.
Incase that the Germans are turning away from facism,we should really think who is the bigger threat Germany without Nazi leadership or the communist dictatorship of Soviet Union.
If the German government is willing to pull back in the 1939 borders in the West and shows it can stop the Soviet attacks against it.it would really make sense to make peace with them. US wouldn not have to send more of its troops in Europe.We could concentrate on Fighting of The Japanese. And our indystry could make sure that the Germans and their Eastern allies can keep Europe free from communism.As i stated before What is worse a strong Germany in the Middle Europe or Soviet Empire in the Eastern Europe?

Kraxis

12-02-2005, 14:34

The situation is changed from 39... Germany will not have a 'we were stabbed in the back' excuse for a new war, in fact she will be allowed to fight her war to the end (against the SU). This is a prudent direction of power... And it is controlled by the Allies, it can't be any more perfect than this. Fascism is 'dead' and communism has certainly not strengthened. Western ideas will prevail if Germany can become a democracy again.

#3, Churchill needs to be in, besides Roosevelt wouldn't do any major deal without talking to him at least. If anything Mr. R. was a personal person, he believed in personal relations, thus Churchill needs to be contacted.
The trouble is Stalin... Roosevelt was not too distant from him, sure he was a leader of communism but Roosevelt again tried to play the personal card, and Stalin jumped at it, securing a lot in return.
I think he lacked the cynicism to ignore Stalin, but this time I think all his advisors will be able to pull him away.

discovery1

12-02-2005, 17:48

I would suggest that you consult Churchill, but leave Stalin in the cold. Baring that, #3. The German military seems to be throwing off it's tradition apoltical stance, and it seems to be in the Wests favor. Who knows, maybe Germany will become a democracy, which, with the support of the military, would be most stable. Maybe make that a condition for peace? The drafting of a democratic constitution. Cease fire, of a sort, until then.

Hmmm, maybe Manstein will set up that backhand blow?

Kraxis

12-02-2005, 22:31

Hmmm, maybe Manstein will set up that backhand blow?
Shhhh... Don't expose my little plan here.~;) ~D

Franconicus

12-04-2005, 10:51

discovery1

12-04-2005, 21:22

discovery1

12-05-2005, 07:02

No one ese is replying...

I guess I'd better answer Churchills reqs.
Hmmm, Definitely pull out of Western Europe and Italy. Maybe Greece and Yugo too. Guarantee free and open elections in parts of Eastern Europe that have been occupied by Germany postwar. AND NO PEACE WITH THE SOVIETS! DEATH TO COMMUNISM!

Oh, and Churchill may also want some looks at Germany's lattest goodies, or at least the Me262.

Has the killing of 'undiserables' stopped? It seems to me that you don't make that clear in the latest post.

Franconicus

12-05-2005, 08:39

1. Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.
2. All prisons including the KZ will be under control of the Interior Minister. For a period the Wehrmacht will guard the prisoners and take care of food and medical care.
3. All executions have to be approved by the Interior Minister. Excluded are all convictions from the military courts.

Undesireables? If you mean SS leaders, Gestapo and all those criminals - not yet. Regarding KZ - Jews, politlcal criminals (beside Nazis) - yes. All prisons are now guarded by Wehrmacht soldiers. They guanrantee food and medical care. And they are under the control of the Interior Minister, a democrat. However, they are still not free!

'Manstein is a fairly honorable chap, yes?'
Manstein is still in the fog. :hide: He is just leader of the easern armies. Kanzler is Goebbels!

discovery1

12-05-2005, 08:44

Undesireables? If you mean SS leaders, Gestapo and all those criminals - not yet. Regarding KZ - Jews, politlcal criminals (beside Nazis) - yes. All prisons are now guarded by Wehrmacht soldiers. They guanrantee food and medical care. And they are under the control of the Interior Minister, a democrat. However, they are still not free!

K. thanks. I saw the part about food and medicine and changing of the guards, but didn't interpret that to mean that the killing had stopped. Even Autzwitz had a medical bay for the prisoners, not very good but there was one.

Manstein is still in the fog. He is just leader of the easern armies. Kanzler is Goebbels!

Oh, right. Don't know much about Goebbels, other than he has a wife and a lot of kids. The wife dated a promonent zionist for a while, btw.

King Kurt

12-05-2005, 10:43

I think we have to be careful that we don't judge events with the benefit of hindsight of what happened after the war - ie the cold war etc. We have to view it in the circumstances of the time. Why should the allies - ie UK and USA suddenly change sides and throw in with the Germans against the Soviets. Germany has been waging a savage war against all of Europe for nearly 4 years, their horrendious treatment of the occupied countries and the Jews is already well known and all will remember that the Prussian Militaristic tradition which has taken over from Hitler was the driving force behind WW1 and every town in England has a memorial to that folly. Manstein's actions are those of a desparate man who knows he and Germany are loosing, so like a desparate football club chairman, they have sacked the manager and now hope that every thing is all right. The no conditional surrender stance adopted by the Allies was based on sound political reasoning - they wanted to ensure Germany was completely beaten and that it's militaristic stance was completely smashed. The UK and USA were no doubt worried about Communism, but were happy to see the Germans and Soviets exhausting themselves in their struggle on the Easten front.

So my stance remains the same - the Allies would not take the foot off the pedal, but would press home the advantage where ever they saw the opportunity - a strong Germany means more trouble in the future, and I am sure they would grab any opportunity to beat Germany into surrender. Churchill had his opportunity for peace with Germany to let them fight Communism in 1940 and he choose to fight on when all looked hopeless - so why should he give up now, when Germany is on the ropes.~:cheers:

Franconicus

12-05-2005, 11:49

The question is, what are the Allies fighting for, isn't it? The answer may not be the same for the UK and the US.

As far as I see (but please correct me if I am wrong)

- Churchill does not want to have a fascist Germany
- He does not want to have a German domination
- He wants to have balance in Europe
- He wants to make sure that there will not be a WW2
- He wants to keep the British Empire as a dominant power in the world
- He does not want to have an increased Soviet influence

- Roosevelt wants to secure Britains independance
- end fascism
- make the US the dominant power
- increase the power of the US industry
- avoid losses of American life
- maybe somekind of UN under US dominance to avoid further WWs.
- a cooperation with the Soviets

- Stalin wants to get his country back
- revenge
- control of central Europe to secure his empire
- being recongnized as equal partner of GB and the US

King Kurt

12-05-2005, 12:29

Franconicus

Seems on the money to me - maybe we need a similar list for the Germans - or is their wish simply to stop the war because they see nothing but defeat in the long run. Trouble is - in the words of Basil Faulty - "you started it, you invaded Poland"

The more I think about this, the more difficult Manstein's position is. To preserve Germany, he needs to return to 1939 borders, "say sorry" - ie massive demilitarisation, disbanding of most his armies, some form of justice for the victims of German aggression and oppression and some form of economic redress - but learning the lessons of post 1918. But this is probably too much for him or anybody to do - from a tradition point of view and the inevietable opposition from the significant portions of Germany who still believe in their invincability. Also would that be enough for the Allies?

Perhaps Manstien needs a significant gesture to back up his position - how about giving up Italy? - It doesn't have a great strategic use - as opposed to say Romania with its oil - and there is a natural defensive line along the Italian border. Also, the power vacuum and resulting chaos might distract the Allies for some time.~:cheers:

Franconicus

12-05-2005, 13:42

Right!

This could be the position of Germany based on the assumption that the war is not lost.
1) Germany wants to have a peace.
2) Germany should verted into a democracy, a moderate one. One man one vote, but with limitations for the smaller parties and laws against radical groups esp. communists. Maybe even a kind of 'House of the Lords'?
3) Territorial aspects: Keep Austria, this is German! Keep Sudetenland, as it is German too. Get the territories in Poland that were lost in WW1. Maybe Poland can get some compensation. Maybe a weak claim on Elsac and Lothrain. You could ask the people there.
4) Keep the other nations in the east and southeast as small as possible. Insist on the right of every nation to have a state. Esp. the Balticum, Balcan, Slowakia ...

Lessons learned from WW1: That is an issue for the allies too! What are their lessons learned? Kill as many Germans as possible and then reduce industry to a 3rd world country? Not good for exports! Weaken them, demilitarize them - not good for a strong democracy. Did not work after WW1.

So what is the vision of Churchill? I know he would not have mind if all Germans were killed, but I guess he would not have been pleased with Central Europe being empty and open fot the Sovites.

Kagemusha

12-05-2005, 14:04

So most of you want peace talks. At least one success for Manstein! But that leads to a couple of other questions:

1. What would be the requirements of Roosevelt for making peace?
2. What would be the requirements of Churchill?
(I know very well the position of the Germans and I can guess what Stalin wants!)

3. Include Stalin
3.a. Yes
3.b. No
3.c. Churchill and Roosevelt wouldn`t care if Germany goes on fighting the Soviets.

4. Postpone the attacks on Sicily and the bombing?
4.1. Yes.
4.2 No. Proceed as planned
4.3 Increase the attacks! This will show the Krauts that they have no other option than to do what the Western Allies want.

I know a lot of questions. Maybe I can give you the next chapter tomorrow!

Ok.Here are my answers:

1. I think that the main consern for US is to get peace in Europe and to secure its markets there.

2.For Churchill,during this war the GB have realized the power of US and they will shift their main alliance from France to US,no matter the outcome of the war.So basicly if the Germany can make peace with the US.GB will come along.The best way to assure US of Germanys intentions would be to resingn the alliance with Japan.

3.) option c) We still have to remember that GB and France were very close of declaring war to Soviet Union on Winter 1940,because of the Soviet war against Finland. Also the first reaction from US in the start of Operation Barbarossa,was not very shocked at all. We have to remember that we are not talking about which country likes witch but these are real politics.Cold calculations.

4. option 1. We have to know what is happening. If germany would just retreat from every where what would that do to political balance of the Europe?Do we want to have an Soviet occupation on whole of the Eastern Europe,if Germany is ready to pull of from Western Europe. What about the Northern Europe?

There are lot of tough questions there.As from the Western Alied point of wiev.If we have an option to stop the war with the Axis and regain the territory that Germany have occupied without fighting it back.Why should we not take that option.If Germany would continue to fight the Soviets, they would not have the resources to attack the Western Europe again. We have to remember that Germans have not invaded most of the Eastern Europe.Infact those countries are their allies.And about the Poland.Also Soviet Union invaded Poland. And the Baltics,Romania and Finland before the Operation Barbarossa. How i see this,this is the perfect opportunity to control the Soviet ambience without declaring war to them.Also we can control the Germany because they cant go on fighting Soviets without our industrys help for a long time. The best possible outcome from this could be that the Soviets and the Germans exhaust them selves fighting eachothers and finally leave the Western allies as the most powerfull factor in the Europe.:bow:

Franconicus

12-05-2005, 14:31

PREPARATONS

4th July. Now that the situation at home is stable you fly back to Russia to meet all commanders of the Heeresgruppen, Luftflotten, armies and squadrons in the east.

“Gentlemen, you all received new orders in the last days and most of you may be confused. Well let me explain our plan.

We expect the Russians to attack soon, maybe within the next two weeks. The Russians have most of their troops at the Kursk area, so most probably they will attack at the seam of HGr. Mitte and HGr. Süd. There is little doubt that the center of the attack will be in the south. Please do not cherish any illusion – the Soviets will want to bring about a decision and they will carry everything they have to the south.

The main shock armies will be the Central Front, the Woronesch Front and the Steppe Front. Central and Woronesch have in total 1.3 million soldiers, 3,400 armored vehicles and 19,000 guns and grenade launchers. Steppe is weaker. They have 600,000 men, 1,200 tanks and 9,000 guns. These three fronts are supported by 2,400 planes.

As you see the Russians are strong, at least at numbers. That should not worry us much. We know that our tanks are better. If the new models and the modifications of the old model IV keep the promises the advantage of the Russians is compensated. We have a remarkable lack of infantry, especially mobile divisions, and a lack of artillery, especially heavy guns. The Russians have a huge advantage in ATGs.

We must keep in mind the Russians have better weapons and equipments than during the last years. Their moral is good and the commanders of the fronts are very experienced. However, most of the units come straight off the training camps and the soldiers and the lower ranks have never seen a battle before.

In the air the Russian dominance is not that big. We should be able to cancel this.

The strategic goal of this operation is the destruction of the Russian offensive armies in the south. This should give the new government the leeway to find a diplomatic solution.

The name of the operation is ‘Catalaunian’. It is divided in several phases. Phase 1 is operation Goth, the redeployment of our armies to the Gothenwall.

I want to thank General Kluge and General Model for the excellent planning of operation Goth. Model will give you now details.”

“Thank you, Feldmarschall! Gentlemen, let me start with some changes of the organisation. The commander of the 2nd Army is the new military governor of Ukraine. For the upcoming operations the 2nd Army will be under my command. The army will get some reinforcements: Two Romanian divisions, which will form together with the 1st Hungarian the XXXI. Army Corps. Additionally it gets the XX. Army Corps of the 9th Army.

Operation Goth consists three steps:

1. Shortening of our position. Currently 4th army is clearing Bryansk. The retreat of Charkow bow is prepared. 1st Tank Army and 6th Army will retreat to the Gothenwall as soon as there is a Soviet attack.
2. This releases our tank formations and we will pull them back. I know that our lines are very thin then.
3. Finally all our armies will take their positions at the Gothenwall.

I know that this is a very complex operation. Discipline and mobility are the key to success. Be aware that the Russian will attack you during your manoeuvre with superior tank and air force units.

You find the complete operational plan on your desk. Do you have any questions so far?”

Mackensen, commander of the 1st Tank Army: “Model, do you really think we can execute this manoeuvre while the Russians attack?”

“Yes, although I know it will be tough. But some units are already on the way and we have probably another two weeks before the Russians attack. I know it will be tough but if you get in trouble Army Group will find a way to quarry you out!”

“Why do you think we can beat the Soviets? They have so much more tanks and armored vehicles than ever before. Their divisions are fully motorized with brand new American trucks.”

Manstein stands up and smiles: “That is right! That will lead to their disaster!”

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Finally Zhukov has made up his mind. If the Germans are in confusion and starting to retreat then it is time for a massive and decisive strike.

On July 9th he presents his plan to Stalin and the Stavka:

“These are the Fronts that will participate at the operations:

Bryansk Front (Gen. Popow)
Former Central Front (Gen. Rokossovsky) renamed to Belarusian Front
Former Voronesz Front (Gen. Vatutin) renamed to 1. Ukrainian Front
Former Steppe Front (Gen. Konew) renamed to 2. Ukrainian Front
Former Southwestern Front (Gen. Malinowski) renamed to 3. Ukrainian Front
Former Southern Front (Gen. Talbuchin) renamed to 4. Ukrainian Front
North Caucasus Front (Gen. Petrow)

Goal of this operation is to destroy the German tank reserves, to encircle the HGr. Süd and HGr. A, to liberate the Ukraine and Belarus and to reach the western borders of the USSR.
The objectives are Gomel, Kiev, and Odessa.

The Fronts are renamed according to their objectives. Belarusian Front and 1. Ukrainian Front will start the invasion. Once they break through the German lines the 2. Ukrainian will join the attack and take Sumy. These three strong fronts operating behind the German lines will force the Germans to deploy their reserves. So two weeks after the beginning of the operation a big tank battle is expected north of Sumy. At the same time Bryansk Front in the north and 3. Ukrainian Front in the south will join the attack and break through the German lines too. Once the German tank divisions are destroyed Belarusian and 1. Ukrainian Front will march towards Kiev. 2. Ukrainian will cross the Dnjepr at Tcherkassy. Bryansk Front will cover the northern front and march towards Gomel. 3. Ukrainian will attack Charkow and then march to Dnjepropetrowsk. It will cover the southern flank. 4. Ukrainian will attack as soon as the German try to withdraw the 6. Armee. They will besiege Stalino. North Caucasus will put the German forces at the Kuban under pressure. Air armies and Black Sea Fleet will support the operations.

In a second phase we start to cut off the German southern army groups. 1. and 2. Ukrainian will go south to reach the Black Sea at Odessa. Belarus will cover their northern flank. 3. Ukrainian will meet 4. Ukrainian at Saporischja. Then 3. will march along the northern border of the Dnjepr to reach Cherson. 4. will march along the southern border with the same objective. North Caucasus will execute naval landings at Crimea and Odessa. Once this is done the complete German right wing is sacked.

Stalin listens to the explanations of Zhukov. Although he does not understand all the details of the plan he realizes that - if the operations are successful – the Germans will loose big parts of their armies and he will get back White Russia and the Ukraine. “What is about the north? Don’t we attack there, too?”

“No”, Zhukov replies, “once the German forces in the south are crashed their northern position will collapse all by themselves. We will be able to disperse them easily. Our plan can only succeed if we focus our armies at the left wing.”
“When will the operations start?”
“July 18th. The units need time to reach their positions.”
“All right! What will be the name of this operation?”
“Kutusow!”

Stalin is pleased with Zhukov’s suggestions and accepts them. ”Zhukov, I want you to coordinate the attack of Belarus, 1st and 2nd Ukrainian. You are responsible for the success. The other fronts will be steered by Stavka.

After the meeting Stalin talks to General Timoshenkov: “The Americans and the British suspended their deliveries. They pretend to have logistic problems. We have to consider that the Anglo-Americans might change sides. I want you to make a plan for this. You know we need all troops to fight the fascists now. But we can prepare everything to fight the other imperialists too.”

Now Zhukov has to take care about the tactical details of the operation. From recon reports he sees that the Germans have at least two lines of defense. At least the first one seems to be quite thin. Many positions are filled by Hungarians and Romanians. The reports tell that there are still many transports from east to west.

How are the Russians starting their attack?

After artillery fire attack with tanks and infantry. So they will easily break through the German lines.
Attack with infantry and artillery only. That is enough. In case that there is a German counterstrike or some German tanks the air force will do close support. The tanks will be needed as soon as the Russians broke through.

Kagemusha

12-05-2005, 15:10

Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)

Kraxis

12-05-2005, 16:13

#1

That is the usual Russian doctrine. Employ the strongest attack right away, unless topography and such are in the way of the tanks.
The Russians got 'scared' when they suffered those impossible losses eariler in the war by using infantry supported by artillery. They know that tanks lessens the losses for the attacker.

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 11:49

Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)
Sorry, kagemusha san, Here is a short cesura before we can start ~;)

HUSKY AND THE PEACE PLAN

July 14th. Red carpet rolled out at your HQ. Guderian and Galland come to visit. They want to get information about the upcoming fights at the eastern front and want to discuss news from home.

You tell them the preparations are in schedule. You received a Soviet radio massage giving a code word to the partisans. You expect the Soviet operation within a week.

Guderian tells you about the allied landing at Sicily. They have a huge advantage in numbers, especially in planes and ships. Italian navy did not fight at all. Most army units run. The German Panzerdivision and Panzergrenadierdivision stopped the chaos and are now retreating to the mainland. Even though the invasion could not be prevented things are not so bad. Guderian thinks that the German troops can hold the front in southern Italy for a while. Due to Student’s paratroops the Italians are still fighting. Kesselring is the new commander for Italy.

After all the loss of Sicily is not a severe disaster. A landing at Greece would have been worse because it would have affected the eastern front directly. So Guderian can even remove the 1. Panzerdivision from Greece and send it to Russia.

Italians will retreat their army from Balkan. German mountain infantry will replace them with Russian auxiliaries and Bulgarians.

In the Reich the situation is under control. The SS is disbanded. Berger did a good job. 432 former SS members were executed immediately. More than 7,000 were captured. Guderian finally had to stop the operation. The captured were pardoned. They are now in so called probation companies and have the chance to redeem them. Half of them is on the way to Naples, the rest is on the transport to Kiev.

The KZ guards were replaced by Wehrmacht’s units. They are on the way to the front, too. They will reinforce Hausser’s SS Corps.

Berger is now leading the transformation of all other SS formations to combat units. In six weeks the first units will be sent to the front.

Ameluxen is busy reorganizing the police. He is trying to get as many former officers as possible. The situation in the KZ is worse than expected. Wehrmacht now tries to give every prisoner enough food and medical care. All work has been stopped.

This of course is a problem for Speer. He already has a severe lack of workers. Guderian and you decide that the POWs of the upcoming operation should be asked whether they volunteer for work in Germany or for the Russian Liberation Army.

Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:

1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
 to adjust future conflicts,
 to create more wealth through a common economy,
 to fight communism

Guderian wants to have a media campaign showing the crimes of the Nazis. If this is done he will disband the NSDAP and fill all political positions with members of former democratic parties. Goebbels will resign. He will do it if Guderian guarantees him safety and exemption from punishment. Then a big victory against the Soviets and the peace initiative will be send to Roosevelt and Churchill.

So once more it is evident that the victory in the east is the main precondition for the success.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

WASHINGTON AND LONDON

Media celebrate the successful landing in Sicily. Undefined sources of the White House are quoted. They say that war in Europe will soon be over. Roosevelt will soon find an agreement with Germany.
The papers praise Roosevelt’s wise strategy and call him the greatest president of all times.

Stalin sends a letter to Roosevelt and Churchill. He congratulates to their successful landing. He is very impressed of the naval superior in the Med and expresses his hopes that the landing in France will follow soon.

He also reminds the western leaders that the Black Sea is Soviet sphere and that activities of the western allies in this area would not be according to the alliance.

Kraxis

12-07-2005, 16:00

The Allies aren't going to agree to that, but hey, to get what you want you have to aim higher from the outset.

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 16:13

Which parts do you think they wont agree to?

Kraxis

12-07-2005, 16:18

2, 3 and 4... They will need to be tweaked at the very least.

They don't want to make it so that it payed off for Germany to have gone to war like this. Effectively it is peace that says Germany won.

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 16:21

I think we can find an arrangement about 2 and 4. Isn't 3 an opportunity for Poland. Maybe better than things went in reality?

Kagemusha

12-07-2005, 16:37

Kraxis

12-08-2005, 01:35

As for Austria, this would be a good time to show that the new German leadership is found on democracy.We could promise the Western Allies that the Austrians could vote whether they want to be a part of the Germany.If the cease fire is signed.~;)
Actually they already did that with the Anschluss... It might not be very well known but those elections were 'fair'. What wasn't fair was how the election was forced onto the Austrian government with threats and how the Nazis were rather aggressive in the street prior to the election, but they were comparably silent on the night itself (by the standards of the day, even by other Western standards, it was a quiet election).

I don't think the Allies might be that inclined to try to get money out of Germany, but they will not want to pay for what Germany did. So Germany will have to pay the lesser countries itself. Since Germany actually rebuilt France and the Allies haven't bombed it back to the Stone Age yet there is little more than pride to go for there. One could say that Germany has already paid France (the French will of course object strongly but are of little consequence and are in general ignored in these cases).

3 isn't much of an opportunity for Poland really as the areas in the SU that could rightly be considered Polish are vastly smaller than the areas lost to Germany. The 1914 borders would be almost over Warsaw and the entire Polish industrial capacity would be lost as well. The Poles would not go for this.
A fairer claim would be to demand a referendum, the Germans in Poland still remain and few new Germans have moved in yet. This would likely result in the Danzig sector falling to Germany and some limited gains along the southern border. This would satisfy both German and Polish demands to an extent. Poland gain a lot in the east and loses fairly insignificant areas in the west.
This should of course be offered up on the second round as a "we have made a compromise, now it is your turn."

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 08:09

I agree with Kraxis. This is something we can start with.I think that the Allies demand that Germany have to pay for the GB,France and the Occupied Countries compensations.
I also think that the whole Poland situation should not be concluded in the peace process because Poland is also in war with Soviet Union.( A smart Stategig move would be to try to make a ceparate cease fire with the Polish.That would leave the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in a difficult situation in their relationships).
Clever! One problem is that there is no Polish partner for those negotiations. Doesn't the Polish government sit at London. Of course Germans could install one, same will Soviets do. But the Allies would never respect a seperate peace treaty. Like they ignored the ceasefire between Germany and Vichy!

kagemusha, the German government discussed your proposal regarding giving up territory to show good will all night long. Retreating from Italy would lead to nothing. Italy is not occupied country but more an ally. So German troops in Italy are surely not a root for this war. Giving up France? Petain would gain control but the Allies would attack him soon and his army would change sides. So as a result the Allies would rapidly stand at the Rhine. And the war would have been lost.
Giving up Poland would be a strong sign, because that is the main reason for this war. But how can that be done as long as the German armies are in the middle of Russia?
So leaving Russia is the only option. But before the government makes this desicion it has to think twice about it!

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 10:09

KUTUSOW

July 22nd, briefing at the HQ of Vatutin, commander of the 1. Ukrainian Front. Zhukov stands in front of his Front Commanders: “Comrades, let me give you Stalin’s congratulations to the successful opening of Kutusow. Konstantin, can you give me more details about the progress of the operation of Belarus and 1st Ukrainian?”
“Yes, comrade Zhukov! As you know it started to rain at July 17th. Due to this and the bad condition of the streets not all units and equipment reached their positions in time. But the rain also covered our preparations and helped us to take the Germans by surprise.
The operation was opened by our air force on July 17th. It bombed Konotop, a railway station 70 km behind the front, to interrupt the German connections to the rear. As soon as night fell the partisans started their operations. They assaulted the railroad network and managed to interrupt it more than 300 times. The traffic in the whole area is still blocked. They also attacked Konotop. They managed to penetrate and there was street fighting all night long. When the new day came the partisan retreated and left a destructed and burning town. However, due to short preparation time not all groups were able to reach their operational area.

At the crack of dawn of July 18th our bombers attacked the fascistic airfields. They were very successful. They destroyed more than 200 planes. Until now there are only little activities of German planes over the battle field. However, the night before our attack the Germans bombed Kursk at sundown. They used fire bombs. They repeated their attack twice that night and the quarters near the station was aflame. The railway facilities were damaged and many depots burned down.

At 5:00 a.m. the artillery started firing. 3,000 guns joined the bombardment, including heavy artillery and Katyushas. We had managed to bring all guns in position. However, we did not have as many shells as we planned. Time for preparation was too short. So the drumfire had to end after three hours. Then 60th and 70th army of Belarus and 38th and 40th army of 1st Ukrainian started to attack at 8:15. According to the plan the infantry had close support by the tanks. They overrun the first German line of defense. Losses were low, very low. The German artillery was soon silenced by our brave ground attack aircrafts. In the afternoon we hit the second German line. After a short strike of our artillery the assault teams attacked again. This time the German resistance was much stronger. Their infantry was supported by ATGs and assault guns. We had to regroup and attacked again. At sundown we broke through. Raiding patrols kept fighting the whole night through and in the morning the German resistance collapsed completely.

The Germans are running away. Information from POWs give us a good picture of the enemy. Belarus fought the 35th Corps and 1st Ukrainian the 31st Corps. 31st was formed by Romanian and Hungarian infantry. It does not exist any longer. 35th had severe losses and is now retreating across the Desna. Prisoners told us that the Germans have orders to retreat to a so called Gothenwall.
At July 20th Belarus advanced to Glukhov and took the town. Now it is moving forward to river Desna. We will reach the river tomorrow.”
Vatutin adds: “1st Ukrainian will reach Konotop this evening. We already succeeded to advance 70 km. This will be the first objective. Our initially plan was to reach Konotop at August 16th.
In this first phase the Germans lost 30,000 men, 30 ATG and more than 200 planes. 1st Ukrainian and Belarus lost 800 men, 18 ATGs and 47 tanks. Our air armies lost 67 planes. Germans 2nd Army is on the run and not able to stop our advance.”
“Excellent”, Zhukov is pleased. “Konew, how is the 2nd Ukrainian doing?”
“We started our operations at July 20th, when the other fronts had managed to break through. We started a frontal attack on Suny. We had to fight the 13th Corps. Unlike everywhere else, there was heavy resistance and we had to clear every single street. Fighting is still going on, but we control 70% of the town now and we will clear the rest until July 24th.
Due to the heavy fighting we lost 9,000 men, 8 ATGs and 32 tanks. Germans lost some 20,000 men.”
“All three fronts did a very good job! Stalin is pleased. Before we discuss how to go on let me tell you news from the other fronts.
Germans left Orel. Popov’s Front took the chance and occupied the town. This is an outstanding success. Germans are also retreating from Belgorod and they take back the Mius front. 3rd and 4th Ukrainian follow them.
There is also news from the intelligence. Our special agent tells us that the Germans started to pull back their armies from Russia. Churchill forwarded an intelligence report telling that the Germans position big formation behind the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev. And German newspapers tell stories about a so called Gothenwall, which will protect Germany from all attacks of the Soviets.
So, comrades! This is the situation today. Now I’d like to hear your opinion how to proceed. Nikolai Fyodorovich, what do you think? ”
Vatutin thinks or a while before he answers: “Our biggest problem is not the German army or the German air force. Both are not able to slow our advance. The problem is the infrastructure. The streets in the operational area are bad, hardly sufficient for civil purpose. Now they have to carry three fronts with 2 million soldiers and thousands of tanks, trucks and guns. The railroad net is slightly better. However, after all the destructions from both sides it collapsed completely. It will take at least two weeks before it will work again.
So my proposal is to put the tank formations in front of our army groups. They can operate despite the bad streets. Let them chase the crippled 2nd Army. We can catch it before it reaches the Dnjepr.”
Rokkosovsky agrees: “Nikolai Fyodorovich is right. We must catch the 2nd Army before it reaches the Dnjepr. But what is even more important, we have to cross that river as soon as possible. Isn’t it clear that the Germans try to built a new line of defense along the Dnjepr. This must be the ‘Gothenwall’. We have to break through before they have time to entrench.
So this is my proposal. Let me and Belarus attack along the southern bank of the river Desna until we reach Kiev. Like Nikolai Fyodorovich proposed the tanks formation will advance as fast as possible while the rest follows. Let Konew’s 2nd Ukrainian do the same in the south. Let Vatutin’s 1st march slow behind the German 2nd Army. Do not put too much pressure on them. If everything goes right we can cross the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev and attack the town from the rear. Then we catch the 2nd Army, too.”
Konew disagrees: “Why do you want to change the plan? Didn’t we agree that the German tank formation would start a counterstrike if we march west? And that we have to keep our forces together to win this decisive battle? Why divert? We haven’t seen a single German tank so far. Let’s keep the armies together. Let’s have the combined force of tanks, infantry and artillery. Let us slowly move forward to Kiev. Once the German tanks are beaten we can still chase the Germans.”

What will Zhukov decide?

1) Let the tanks off the chain and chase the German 2nd Army?
2) Let the armies in the north and south speed up while Vatutin will slow his march? Try to cross the Dnjeor as fast as possible and cut off the German 2nd Army?
3) Follow Konew’s advice. Slow down the advance to keep the armies together and to be prepared to fight a German counterstrike?

What are the orders for the air armies?
a) Attack the 2nd Army and stop her retreat.
b) Support our spearheads. This includes protection, recon and support attacks.
c) Cover all edges. Fight any German plane and tank which tries to approach our armies.

King Kurt

12-08-2005, 14:02

Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:

1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
 to adjust future conflicts,
 to create more wealth through a common economy,
 to fight communism

.[/I][/B]

Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick. Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!! Overall, this proposal leaves a far too stronger Germany and it would not be acceptable to the West. The best plan for the US and the UK is to let the Germans and Russians slug it out and for them to pick up the pieces. Also, what about Poland. Considering that this what the UK went to war for, are they likely to accept the German puppet state that is proposed? - I don't think so. For the purposes of the story, there is nothing wrong in the Germans proposing it, but I think it would make the west more likely to dig in and hold on for unconditional surrender.

As for the russian choices - this is difficult. I think 2 for the ground forces and 3 for the air. The key is to cross the Dnjepr - this must be the basis of the German's defence. No point of going hell for leather for the German 2nd army - it is mainly their allies and poorer quality- getting over the river is key and the close support of the airforce will be the Russians eyes and shield. If the Gothenwall is compromised, the masterplan is undone. ~:cheers:

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 17:28

Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick. Hope you are well now! Do you agree with the chosen Soviet tactics?

Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!!
In 1943 this is not so obvious. Germany still occupies most of Europe. The industrial potential is bigger than before and its main armies are still unbeaten - despite Stalingrad and Tunis. If they cannot win they will try do make a remis at least.
On the other hand: German government needs the agreement of the German public. And it has to avoid a situation like after WW1. So all critical issues have to be solved - especially with Poland.
Poland has a very difficult future. 1939 has shown that an alliance with France and Britain will not save the country if it is attacked by Germany or Russia. So it has to ally with one of both. Not an easy choice.
Germany has to avoid that Poland allies with Russia or with France. So it will be very difficult to find a stable order in Europe, regardless who wins.

Kagemusha

12-08-2005, 21:22

Clever! One problem is that there is no Polish partner for those negotiations. Doesn't the Polish government sit at London. Of course Germans could install one, same will Soviets do. But the Allies would never respect a seperate peace treaty. Like they ignored the ceasefire between Germany and Vichy!

kagemusha, the German government discussed your proposal regarding giving up territory to show good will all night long. Retreating from Italy would lead to nothing. Italy is not occupied country but more an ally. So German troops in Italy are surely not a root for this war. Giving up France? Petain would gain control but the Allies would attack him soon and his army would change sides. So as a result the Allies would rapidly stand at the Rhine. And the war would have been lost.
Giving up Poland would be a strong sign, because that is the main reason for this war. But how can that be done as long as the German armies are in the middle of Russia?
So leaving Russia is the only option. But before the government makes this desicion it has to think twice about it!

I think we should contact the Polands refugee government in London. I understand the stand of the German government.And the option of retreating from Russia is not even a option how i see it.If we retreat the SU says thank you stupid Germans and follows our retreat into Berlin.~D What we need to do is to get the contact to Western allies and start negotiating.And in the East we should teach the Russians a lesson of Mobile Strategig defence.Maybe after that the Western allies also will revaluate their plans concernig our faith.~:)

Options for the Russian Attack:
Options 1 and 2 would be exactly what the Germans want.I choose option 3 keep the Attack together and use our numbers.If we get separate,the Germans destroy our spearheads.

Orders for air armies option c)

It seems that the Germans are using their Allied forces as a bate. The casulties on Soviet side are simply too low.:bow:

Kraxis

12-08-2005, 22:24

Options for the Russian Attack:
Options 1 and 2 would be exactly what the Germans want.I choose option 3 keep the Attack together and use our numbers.If we get separate,the Germans destroy our spearheads.

Orders for air armies option c)

It seems that the Germans are using their Allied forces as a bate. The casulties on Soviet side are simply too low.:bow:
Remember that the Russians are highly impetuous now... Trying to hold them back would result in chaos. The units are poised to strike. Russian doctrine is everything for fast advacnes, trying to do somethign that would fit the British more would not be very effective. The Russians simply aren't trained or used to this.
Don't forget the impact on morale... Now the morale is good, but the Russian soldier is fickle and will break if he doesn't feel it goes well.

The Russians have learned a lot from the Germans in terms of strategic movement and capturing slower enemies, their days of gung-ho charges and linear attacks are gone.

Btw the losses should be considered somewhat inflated. It was good for promotion if you could supply the leaders with good results, and for lesser officers there would be only one way to do that, present good number of kills to own losses. Even these Marshalls weren't immune to it, and it is also why it is hard to use the Russian souces for actual losses.

So given all these things there can only be two real options.
That is 2 and b.

Franconicus

12-09-2005, 12:50

Let me summarize! We have 2c, 3c and 2b.~:confused:
Zhukov would be pleased if you could find a common approach!

King Kurt

12-09-2005, 13:18

Let me summarize! We have 2c, 3c and 2b.~:confused:
Zhukov would be pleased if you could find a common approach!
I think that Kraxis is saying preety much the same as me - my air approach is to use the airforce to guard my flanks and watch for the elusive German armour, which could be the same as protecting the spearheads. if it helps Zhukov make his mind up, I could change to 2b.

I also think that the Germans main aim is to establish a strong defensive line on the Dnjepr, not necessarily to engage in a large mobile battle with the Russians - better to retreat to a strong line with the armour intact, than to risk a mobile battle with the Russians and loose the Dnjepr line. The Germans would like a victory, but time is more important.~:cheers:

Kagemusha

12-09-2005, 13:22

I base my thoughts of the German strategy mainly on this little sentence from from General War Marshall Von Mannstein:~;)
“Why do you think we can beat the Soviets? They have so much more tanks and armored vehicles than ever before. Their divisions are fully motorized with brand new American trucks.”

Manstein stands up and smiles: “That is right! That will lead to their disaster!”

Franconicus

12-09-2005, 14:23

You all are right. Maybe you can discuss this over the weekend ~:cool:
Zhukov can postpone the decision until Monday!!

Here is another part with another difficult desicion ~D

THE ISLAND CONFERENCE
In the shadow of the dramatic political and military changes Roosevelt and Churchill meet at the Island Conference on July 23rd. Their attendants are the US generals Eisenhower and Marshall and the British generals Montgomery and Alexander.
First topic on the agenda is Husky. Everything goes according plan. The allied forces demonstrate their ability to execute huge and complex landing operations. Husky will bring new conclusions for further operations.
Next they discuss the situation in Russia. The Russian invasion was another surprise. Stalin did not tell anybody in advance. It looks as if the operations started very successful. German armies withdraw to the Dnjepr. Roosevelt thinks that this is very good news because it means that the war in Europe may come to an end soon. Churchill has another view. If the Russians manage to break through the Dnjepr line too, then nothing will be able to stop them. They will reach the Romanian and Polish border before winter. Churchill feels the need to start a western operation as soon as possible to minimize the communist influence on postwar Europe.
At this point the generals were asked to present the military options. Eisenhower says, that a big part of the fleet, especially the special landing vessels currently are bound to operation Husky and planned operations at the Italian mainland. Same applies for the air force. So at the moment Husky requires so many resources that another immediate operation cannot be done.
If the operations in Italy are done according the plan the resources for a new big amphibious operation will be available in spring. If the operation against the Italian mainland will be cancelled another operation could be started in autumn.
The staff discussed several scenarios. According to Churchill’s proposal they investigated the pros and cons of an operation against Bulgaria. Due to the undecided position of the Turks and the clear opposition of the Soviets this plan does not seem to be feasible. The fast advance of the Soviets could make it senseless.
An operation against Greece is very difficult. The territory does not promote a fast advance. It is very likely that the Russians will invade Poland and Romania while the Western Allies still fight through the Greek mountains.
The American staff still favors an operation against North France. It would have the support of the whole air force and once the troops are landed they can easily advance to Germany. However, France is still occupied by strong German forces and the preparations haven’t even started. So the big operation will not be possible before 1944. However, a small scale landing could be done, very similar to the Dnjepr.
The British staff favors the Italian option. Land at the Italian mainland and push north. This would make the Italian government collapse and finally lead to Germany too.
After this presentation the two heads of governments adjourn to the drawing room to have a face to face discussion. Churchill seems to be very depressed: “Husky was a big mistake. We simply bet on the wrong horse. How could we know that the Russians would be able to break through so quick? If the Germans cannot stop the Russians at the Dnjepr they will roll over central Europe. And there is nothing we can do about it.”
“You see pink elephants, Winston!” Roosevelt replies. “Uncle Joe is our ally and Jerry is the enemy. Be happy that the war will be over soon. We will find an arrangement with Uncle Joe. After all we have done to support him.”
“After all the blood and pain the Russians paid in this war he will not want to make arrangements. And if he can sack Central Europe he does not have to. We started the war to protect the independence of Poland. What do you think the Soviets will do when they banished the Germans?”
“O.k.! So what can we do? What if we increase the air raids and make a small scale landing in France. That would be at least something we can do.”
“Yes sure! But that would weaken the German and help the Russians!”
“So what would you propose, Winston?”
“We have two options. We can let the Russians take Central Europe and hope that they will be willing to accept our wishes. Realistically this means that we betray the Polish. Or we try to find an arrangement with the Germans. They should know now that they are in trouble. Maybe we can find a good compromise. But that would mean that we betray our Russian partner. I cannot say that I like one of these options. But I guess we have to make a decision right now. Do not forget that the bombardments will soon reach a new dimension.”
Churchill and Roosevelt are well aware that they have to decide now and that their decision will change the future of Europe and maybe the world:

Enforce the attack against Germany. Increase the air raids and make a small scale landing in France and proceed in Italy. Make an announcement that you will not accept anything less than the unconditional surrender. Now that you are on the street to victory you do not have to make a compromise. This would be a strong signal to the American public, the Russians and the German government that the western allies are not going to change their way.
Break off the friendship with the Soviets. Stop all attacks against Germany and make tell them your conditions for peace. This way the end of the war would be a compromise instead of a victory, but it might save Central Europe from communism.
Do the best to catch up the Soviets: more intense bombing, accelerated operations in Italy and the landing in France in spring 1944.

Kagemusha

12-09-2005, 15:46

This is a tough decision to the Allies indeed. Do we want to crush Germany and let the Russians become the most powerfull factor in Europe?And if the Russians brake the Germans at Dniepr,where will the Russians Stop? I would choose the option number 2.Simply becouse the communist dictatorship sould not take over in Eastern and Central Europe.
First conditions for Germany if it wants a ceace fire should be Braking all ties to Imperial Japan.Stop supporting the Fascist government of Italy.Retreat from France and the benelux countries.We have to remember what we are talking about here is not an alliance with Germany but possible peace treaty.Even Stalin is not that mad that he would declare war on us if we break of from the Alliance with the Russians.Let the Germans and her allies fight with the Soviets and later if it seems necessary we can take action on one side or another.:bow:

King Kurt

12-09-2005, 16:57

I would plump for a version of 1. The allies need unconditional surrender or there will be 2 powerhouses in Europe not 1. Central Europe is lost whatever happens - Poland is either as a German puppet state while they fight on against the Russians or is a Russian barrier state against the west. So up the bombing, land in France as soon as possible and don't bother with Italy - it is a sideshow. I would also work on Vichy - talk of war crimes trials for helping with the extermination of the Jews if they do not declare for the Allies etc. Also would the British and American public really go with a betrayal of the Russians - who had been lauded as heroes for the last 2 years for their fight against Facism - especially to join forces with the evil Germans who have bombed us and slaughtered millions of civilians. We shouldn't let our knowledge of what happened after the war colour how we tell the story, we should try to think as people did in 1943.~:cheers:

Kagemusha

12-09-2005, 21:10

discovery1

12-09-2005, 23:14

2. Break off with the sovs. Churchill knows they are terrible, as does a large chunk of America(Patton to name onem I think). Just because RDF made the naive and gulible choice in otl....

Kraxis

12-10-2005, 00:37

Honestly I would go for a combination of 2 and 3. Give it all you have to put pressure on the Germans, for as it seems now the Germans might think they are strong enough to force a 'White Peace'. One has to back up demands with force when it coems to war.

If Italy recieves ALL the attention the secondary landings might very well become strong enough to not have Salerno and Anzio happen. That could mean a more fluid action. The Germans would still have to guard France very well, but the Allies wouldn't have to engage them there (divide and conquer).
At the same time the Russian are quite threatening as it is, and now an opening has presented itself to break off the alliance.

Of course the interaction should be secret...

discovery1

12-10-2005, 06:18

What would qualify as a "White Peace" as opposed to what we have suggested above?

Kraxis

12-10-2005, 14:35

A white peace is a return to status quo or a peace that is very close to it...

discovery1

12-10-2005, 17:01

A white peace is a return to status quo or a peace that is very close to it...

A white peace then isn't possible unless the sovs are no longer at war. But in the west, I fail to see how anythinbg other than a white peace COUKD happen. they aren't going to curve up much anyway. Lots of new states, but aside from that.

What are the allied terms anyway, or at least how do they differ from those proposed on page 3?

King Kurt

12-12-2005, 10:54

Sorry King Kurt i have to disagree.Nations cant afford to think whats good or evil.Instead what is the best intrest of the Nation.Under the Nazi government Germany never even officially sued for peace.Becouse there was a lunatic in control.Destroying of Germany should not be the aim what ever the conditions.If you put yourself in the boots of Churchill or Roosewalt,would you not like two powerhouses in the Europe that are hostile towards each other and the Third western European powerhouse who would only benefit from this situation,becouse it would rise them for the most powerfull of the three?:bow:

This is not about good or evil - the best interest of the UK and the USA is to see Germany smashed. Between 1870 and 1939 - barely 70 years - germany had been responsible for the 3 major wars on main land Europe - one of the reasons we have not had one since is because Germany was well beaten and it has been fully intergrated into Europe - and controled by the EC. As for the USA, they want to dominate world markets, so why let one of its biggest rivals off the hook when they are on the ropes.

My point about public opinion is that the UK and the USA had heard nothing but good about the Russians since 1941 - my father was a teenager in the war and he had a poster of a Black sea marine on his wall, not General Patton. The UK in the war developed a strong Socialistic feeling - all in it together etc - and this was evidenced by the election of the Labour party in 1945 at the expense of Churchill. So there would have been a strong resistance to any change of face amongst the Allies.:san_grin:

Franconicus

12-12-2005, 11:05

This is really a surprise to me? You want to make peace with Germany? Are you serious or is this just your pre-christmas mood? :san_smiley:

This changes a lot and so I have to ask for our help again!:san_tongue:

PARANTHESIS - THE ISLAND AGENDA
After a sleepless night the two heads of governments come to a decision. They will contact the German government and try to find an agreement. In the meanwhile they will meet Stalin and discuss the map of future Europe. If he does not guarantee the freedom and independency of the Central Europe nations, especially Poland, this will give reason to break the pact.
Roosevelt does not feel very comfortable with this plan, but finally he agrees. He worries about the impact on the pacific war. The Soviet Unit could strengthen the Japanese position. So he wants to redirect most of the bomber squadrons from Europe to Asia. Churchill does not agree. He wants to end war against Germany first.
Here are the options:

Follow Roosevelt’s plan: Stop all attacks against Germany (war in Italy can go on), move most of the air force from Europe to the Asian theatre. Throttle the deliveries for Russia and redirect them to China. Britain will increase their military strength in India and Burma.
Churchill’s plan: Negotiate and fight – go on with the attacks as planned while you negotiate with the Germans.
The compromise: Stop the operations against Germany but keep on building your forces in England. This will keep the pressure on Germany. And you could also use it against Stalin – you never know!

P.S.: Could I ask for a favour? Could someone prepare the peace talks preconditions and maybe a peace proposal for the Western Allies, please?

discovery1

12-12-2005, 14:00

Send all of Russia's aid to China, definetly. And ease up the bombing a little, it's not like it did anything irl. And keep building up your forces in GB.

And how could the USA not dominate world markets? Our economy is so huge.

Franconicus

12-12-2005, 14:42

Between 1870 and 1939 - barely 70 years - germany had been responsible for the 3 major wars on main land Europe.

I do not agree that Germany was respnosible all alone. I think Europe is a very sensitive construct. It easily gets out of balance. But maybe we should discuss this in another thread.

But I agree that it is essential - esp. for GB - tha there is a balance in Europe. But how can you get one?

Franconicus

12-12-2005, 14:47

And how could the USA not dominate world markets? Our economy is so huge.
Lets pretend taht Germany controls mainland Europe without Russia and GB. Then it has maybe 100 million citizens and controls a market of 300,000,000 to 500,000,000. If memory serves Germany had the biggest or second biggest trade marine before WW1. In the late 1970ies Germany raised to become the biggest exporting nation - although it had lost the war.

On the other hand: US companies like Ford, GM, Standard Oil or IBM could have participated in this trade. :san_cool:

Kraxis

12-12-2005, 15:23

Churchills plan... If the Ruskis happens to agree then there will be no real trouble. If we already divert resources Stalin won't ever grant us a single point.

We have to assume that the Allies WANT to stay together but the circumstances are against it right now.
Besides, Germany needs to feel the pressure for her to grant us as many points as possible. This is going to be diplomacy at a gunpoint, often a very effective form of diplomacy.

King Kurt

12-12-2005, 15:59

My hundredth post!!

I feel like a voice in the wilderness, but I would go for number 2 - carry on the fight and open negociations. As for terms and conditions, this is difficult. You want Germany to disband most of its military machine, but they will still be fighting the Soviets. You want a free Poland, but how can that be if the war continues in the east? It all boils down to can there be peace while the war in the east continues? So maybe, start with unconditional surrender!

One thought that has crossed my mind is that perhaps the Germans best option is to make peace with the Russians and ignore the UK and the USA. Some division of the spoils of Easten Europe would be possible and Stalin, as an absolute dictator, is in a far better position to do this than say the UK and the USA. German war aims were driven by land not a crusade against Communism and now Hitler has gone, why not. The Germans could play the " they never fought by you and were prepared to let you do all the major fighting" card while the Russians could offer a "you have the West, we will have the East approach". Now - there is a thought.:san_rolleyes: Manstein must know that militarily he has 2 long term options - a defensive posture to keep them at bay or some form of total defeat of the Russians by a furthur invasion. In reality, are either of these an answer? Nobody has ever managed to totally subdue the Russians going back to the Mongols and a defensive posture commits the Germans to years of fighting. Even with tactit support from the UK and the USA, does Germany have the resources to do this? Would the result be an exhausted Germany, ripe for exploitation by the UK and USA who had been waiting on the sidelines?:san_smiley:

Franconicus

12-12-2005, 16:15

My hundredth post!! Congrat!

I feel like a voice in the wilderness, but I would go for number 2 - carry on the fight and open negociations. As for terms and conditions, this is difficult. You want Germany to disband most of its military machine, but they will still be fighting the Soviets. You want a free Poland, but how can that be if the war continues in the east? It all boils down to can there be peace while the war in the east continues? So maybe, start with unconditional surrender! Another option would have been a European peace, including the SU.Like Kraxis said, the fundament would be prewar Europe with some new states in the middle. This would maybe closer to the balance that putting Germany down. However, the future of the states between Moscow and Berlin is still uncertain.

One thought that has crossed my mind is that perhaps the Germans best option is to make peace with the Russians and ignore the UK and the USA. Some division of the spoils of Easten Europe would be possible and Stalin, as an absolute dictator, is in a far better position to do this than say the UK and the USA. German war aims were driven by land not a crusade against Communism and now Hitler has gone, why not. The Germans could play the " they never fought by you and were prepared to let you do all the major fighting" card while the Russians could offer a "you have the West, we will have the East approach". Now - there is a thought.:san_rolleyes: I guess Manstein has the same idea. :san_cool: Although German military does not like communism and although there were so much murders and crime in Russia - this is one option if the Western democracies will not cooperate.

Manstein must know that militarily he has 2 long term options - a defensive posture to keep them at bay or some form of total defeat of the Russians by a furthur invasion. In reality, are either of these an answer? Nobody has ever managed to totally subdue the Russians going back to the Mongols and a defensive posture commits the Germans to years of fighting. Even with tactit support from the UK and the USA, does Germany have the resources to do this? Would the result be an exhausted Germany, ripe for exploitation by the UK and USA who had been waiting on the sidelines?:san_smiley:
Germany could hope that the USSR will fall apart. Or that there will be a revolution like in 1917. However, Germany without the Nazi ideology does not have a lot to win in Russia. So I guess he is looking for the exit.

I use a map in a powerpoint file to follow the movements of the Russians. If someone is able to explain me how to post this as a picture I could share it with you!

Franconicus

12-13-2005, 11:40

OPERATION HANNIBAL

Juli 27th. Radio message from HQ 9th Army to Antitank Detachment 653: “Hannibal”.

Juli 29th, HQ of General Rokossovsky, Belarsian Front. Rokossovsky welcomes his chief, Zhukov. “Comrade General, welcome back at the front. Do you bring any news from Stavka?”
“Yes, Konstantin, Stalin is still very pleased! The Germans contacted him to propose a meeting to discuss the chances to end the war. They proposed to meet at Ancara.”
“What did Stalin reply?”
“He said: Why should we meet there? Zhukov will come to Berlin soon!”
“Good reply!”
“Right! And so he ordered me to accelerate the operations. And I forward the order to you!”
Rokossovsky sighs.
“And there is another thing. Churchill and Roosevelt want to meet Stalin too. Looks like the imperialists finally decided to keep on fighting the Germans. Of course Stalin needs a big victory to impress them.”
”Of course!”
“So, Konstantin, what is going on here?”
“We pursued our advance according plan. We were marching along the Desna River and now passed half the distance to Kiev. There is hardly any resistance from the Germans. 60th and 70th Army are our spearheads. 65th, 48th, 13th are covering the flank along the river. 2nd Tank Army is reserve.
Vatutin slowed his advance. He took Konotop and is repairing the railroads. He also gathers his front there.
Koniev is advancing in the south. He got stuck at Sumy. But he tries to catch up.
I asked the commander of the 70th, Galatin, to join us. He can give you more details about the progress.” He opens the door and calls the commander of the 70th Army.
“Galatin, General Zhukov wants to know when you will arrive at Berlin.”
“Well, General Zhukov, until yesterday the Germans did not do much to bother us. In fact we did not see a lot of them last week. We reached the Desna River and followed its banks to the south west. The Germans tried to slow our advance by damaging the roads and using mines. Further more they destructed as much as possible. There is hardly a house or farm or anything else left in the area we operate. Though my tanks can easily pass all obstacles supply cannot. So lack of fuel is limiting our progress. According to the order the advance of the tanks has the highest priority. So infantry, artillery and ATGs fell far behind. My army is now spread over more than 100 km. Some equipment is still at Kursk.
On July 27th we passed the Seim River, a small arm of the Desna. There was a short fight with German antitank units. But we could outmaneuver them and continue our march. However we lost two tanks – two of these new British ones – when we had to go through a swamp.
We started the operation with 125 tanks. We lost ten when for the brake through and since then another 8. Additionally 32 tanks are broken down. Due to the overload of the streets our service company has not been able to repair them. So the combat strength on July 27th was 75 tanks.
All along the march we were under the umbrella of our air army. There was little activity from the Germans. But the more we leave our starting position the thinner is the shield of our air force. German airplanes were not very active. Just two or three planes that followed our advance without attacking. At July 27th the first air attack hit our supply convoys. Although our fighters tried to engage the enemy the supply route was blocked for several hours.
Yesterday we hit strong German resistance for the first time. Our forward troop with 15 tanks was pound of a small forest. They called their commander at once. He decided to attack the German position with 30 tanks while another group of 17 tanks tried to get on the left side of the Germans.
When the frontal attack started it was soon clear that it was a strong position with 15 to 20 guns. The first tanks were destroyed at a distance of 2,000 m. So the commander estimated that the Germans used their 8,8 guns. He emerged the tanks and they run at full speed to get close to the German position. When he was closer he realized that the Germans used a kind of assault guns, at least armored vehicles without turret. Although we had already lost 7 tanks we started firing at the Germans. We saw that several tanks were hit but there was no damage to observe. They kept on firing. When we had lost already 15 tanks the commander ordered to retreat, hoping that our second group was luckier. But although they managed to approach the Germans from the side they could not make it. Just when they wanted to fire at the German tanks a second German formation came out of an ambush and attacked the tanks from the rear. The second German group consisted of 7 Mark III tanks.
Before our tanks could turn they were beaten. In this fight we lost 32 tanks, although 4 are only damaged.
I called for air support but when our planes arrived the enemy was already gone. We occupied the battlefield to secure the damaged tanks. Fortunately the Germans did not attack during night.
70th army’s current combat strength is 43 tanks. Infantry and artillery are far behind.
To answer your question, General, I think it will take some time to reach Berlin.”
Rokossovsky looks sheepish. Zhukov asks: “Tell me more about the German tanks. The first group, are you sure that this is a new type?”
”At least I have never seen them before. Our T34 were almost 500 m in front of them but still they were not able to penetrate them. The other group was the well-known Mark III tanks.”
“How many of these new tanks ambushed you?”
“15 to 20. Plus seven Mark III.”
“Thank you! Return to your army now and get them ready as soon as possible!”
When he left Zhukov turned to Rokossovsky: “What do you think about this?”
“We knew the German had new tank types and these seem to be very effective. At least we should never try to attack them frontal.”
“Right! I wonder if this was just an ambush to stop our advance or the start of the expected German counterstrike.”
Rokossovsky shakes his head. “Would the Germans use their latest and best tanks only for an ambush? Who says that there are not others behind? We know that the Germans still have thousands of tanks.”
“But why then didn’t they attack afterwards. They could have smashed the 70th Army easily?”
“Maybe they were taken by surprise, too. Or they are not fully deployed.”
“Anyway, I must have one of those tanks. Give a warning to all armies and air armies. They shall bring me one and maybe some prisoners too. But they have to be careful. Never attack them head-on. Never attack them if the situation is unclear or if we do not have superior numbers. And use air power!”
“What are your orders now, General Zhukov?”
What is Zhukov going to order?

Advance further! The objective is still to cross the Dnjepr as fast as possible. A hand full of German tanks will not stop us. Let the 60th and 70th reach the Dnjepr north of Kiev.
Give them a break. Let the armies repair their tanks and get the infantry and artillery to the front. And move your 2nd Tank Army forward to enforce the spearhead. Then advance again.
Stop your advance at once. Take a defensive position, take your infantry and ATGs in and entrench. Give the same orders to 2nd Ukrainian and let 1st Ukrainian close ranks.

Kagemusha

12-13-2005, 12:43

Number 1).No Soviet Army commander would stop his attack on A skirmish like this.:san_wink:
Franconicus San you are moving fast:san_grin: .My answer to the earlier question the Island agenda is number 2).

King Kurt

12-13-2005, 14:26

I am torn between 1 and 2. The Russians need to get to the Dnjepr as soon as possible, but they do seem to be outstripping their supports. I suppose as we are trying to act in character, they would press ahead. Perhaps we could attempt to get more air support to the spearheads and maybe some infantry for tank riding - the Russians must meet some German Infantry based defdence soon - and the Ferdinands were suspect to infantry attack.:san_rolleyes:
So I go for a slightly modified 1:san_grin:

discovery1

12-13-2005, 16:53

Change foward with all haste. So 1.

Kraxis

12-13-2005, 17:09

Gah!

Zhukov was a keen mind... He would never order a continued attack given the circumstances. He knew when to stop usually (though Seelöw Heights comes to mind). We know what might come now, but Zhukov was much better at this than any of us, so I think we are giving him too little credit here.

But he would never halt completely. Thus #2 is what I believe he would have ordered.

Franconicus

12-13-2005, 17:19

Just some more information to you:
70th Army has cureently 79 tanks, 60th Army has 67 (they started with less).
About 50% are ready for combat. Rokossovsky's strongets tank unit is 2nd Tank Army of course with 456 tanks.

I still could not find a way to post my PowerPoint maps. If anybody wants my strategic maps send me your mail adress and I'll send you the files.:san_smiley:

Franconicus San you are moving fast
Didn't I say that this is a very mobile war?

Franconicus

12-14-2005, 11:37

OPERATION GOMHORRA
July 28th. Despite the ongoing operation at the Eastern Theatre Guderian calls you to an urgent conference to the capitol. On the flight you read about the allied attack against Hamburg. The reports are confusing but it is clear that something terrible happened.
When you touch ground you go straight to the conference of the government. When you look at the other participants you see that some are depressed, some are furious, some are perplexed.
Ameluxen, the Minister of Interior, gives a report about the situation at Hamburg. The town is destroyed completely. The whole infrastructure and administration collapsed. From all over Germany rescue teams are trying to retrieve the cadavers. The survivors took flight and are now spreading all over Germany. It is not possible to determine how many civilians were killed. Maybe between 30,000 and 50,000.
Galland gives a report about the raiders. The first attack was made by the night bombers of the Royal Air Force. They used a new mean to blind our radar. So our night fighters could not find the invaders and the town was almost undefended. The British used a well calculated mixture of demolition bombs and firebombs. This caused a firestorm which run from the center to the outer region. British timing was perfect. People in the shelters choked. Some tried to escape by jumping into wells. They were boiled alive. The town is filled with cadavers.
USAAF and RAF bombers repeated the attack during the next days and nights.
German defense failed completely. This was a bad surprise because the night fighters had been very successful before. But the new mean to block the radar was very effective.
Guderian asks Galland what he intends to do to prevent situations like that in the future.
“Our engineers are frenetic working on a solution. We are sure that our radar will work again soon. We will also increase our home defense forces. Here is my action plan. We have to have a clear priority in fighting the allied air raids. Some of our bomber models like the Ju88 are also very capable night fighters. I want to convert some bomber squadrons into night fighters. We know that bomber pilots can be trained easily to night fighters. Further more we will halve the bomber production to increase the fighter output. And we will train more pilots. During the last 3 days 20,000 young men volunteered to join our fighter squadrons. They only want to stop the bombers from causing more damage and to take revenge.”
Manstein replies: “If you cut the bomber production, this will have a negative effect to our eastern campaign. We need bombers there.”
“We already stopped the bombing of England. That releases some bomber units. There is a complete squadron on the way to the eastern front. But you are right. On the long run you will have fewer bombers. But what are the bombers good for if you do not have fighters to protect them? What are they good for if we cannot stop the allied from destroying our towns?”
Guderian: “Speer, what is the Me262 doing?”
Speer: “We have some technical problems with the turbines. This caused a delay in production. But we will soon be able to equip a test squadron.”
“How will the attack on Hamburg effect the production?”
“Not much! Main target was the population. Of course there is a loss of labor force and the infrastructure was hit. But we can handle this. Together with Ameluxen we will start to move most of the population out of the big cities. And we already started a program to move the production facilities to the western provinces where they cannot be attacked by the British or US bombers.”
Guderian now asks Goebbels how the attack affected the sentiment of the population.
“We made a poll two weeks ago and we repeated it last week. The situation changed significantly. Two weeks ago the people hoped that we could find an agreement with western democracies to end the war. Now they do not see this as a realistic option. They even think that the western nations are worse enemies than the Soviet Union. Most people agree that there is little chance for an early end of war. They think that Germany has to keep on fighting to get better oportunities.
While many people had discussed the option to make a ceasefire in the west or even capitulate this option is gone now. Everybody is sure that GB and the US would not show any mercy and that they would insist on condition even worse than Versailles. Some even think that the British want to exterminate the German population.
Two weeks ago most people were sad that Hitler was gone but they hoped that this would open new opportunities to end the war. Today this has changed. Many people think that Hitler was able to stop the bomb raids or that the allies never dared to attack Hamburg if Hitler was still there. Most people wish that Hitler was still there. They do not believe that the new government will solve the problems.
At Munich and some other towns in the south there were protest demonstrations against the British. People wore their Nazi uniforms and carried Nazi flags”
Suddenly Dönitz bursts in: “It is my entire fault! If I hadn’t stopped the submarine war the British would not have been able to send so many bombers. Many of them had naval equipment. We must start with our attacks at once! The navy will do its duty!”
Guderian replies: “Großadmiral, we have to hear all facts before we decide what to do. But I’d like to make a break right now! I want to discuss a few things with Rommel and Manstein. Let’s meet again this evening.”
When the others were gone Guderian asks you and Rommel: “What do you think about it?”
Rommel replies: “The attack is the most outrageous event in history. I fought the British in Africa. It was always a hard fight – war is never a children’s game – but both sides kept the rules. I cannot understand how they could do it. This attack had only one goal, kill as many civilians as possible. Disgusting!”
Guderian: “Erwin, do not forget that we bombed London and other English towns.”
“I know and that was wrong! But the attack on Hamburg is something else. This is not war, this is not even terror, this is mass murder! If we only could find a way to catch the responsible persons and bring them to trial.”
“Gentlemen, I have to tell you that an American contacted us and offered his help to induce peace talks with the US.”
Manstein: “You mean they want to talk about peace while they kill our people?”
“Yes! What do you want me to answer him?”
Manstein: “Let’s first look at our options. Shall we start to bomb the British towns, again?”
Rommel: “No. Although I would like to strike back, we are not strong enough to impress them.”
Manstein: “Shall we send our submarines again?”
Guderian: “Well, that would force them to use more planes to fight the Battle of the Atlantic. But the losses were too high and situation has not changed. No, let us invest our resources in the fighter program.”
Manstein: “So there is nothing we can do to punish the British right now?” “No.”
Manstein: “So all we can do is to make future raids costly. I think Galland has the right ideas. We must defend our home now. And to this American emissary – tell him that we are willing to negotiate as soon as GB and US cease bombing!”
Guderian: “I agree. It does not make much sense to talk about peace now. German people would not agree to make peace with GB now. We have to bet on the other horse. I think we have to make peace with the Russians. Although Stalin is not willing to make an agreement now, I do not think that the chances are bad. We still occupy a lot of his territory. We can offer it in return for peace. We only have to convince him that he will not be able to get it back with his own forces. Erich, what is ‘Catalaunian’ doing?”
Manstein: “Up to now everything goes right. Model is doing an excellent job. The retreat of the 2nd Army is his masterpiece. Currently it takes the position at Kiev. They destroyed the infrastructure to slow the advance of the Soviets and so far it worked very well. The 2nd Army has only few losses, mainly due to night bombers. But Night Fighter Squadron 5 interferes now and the situation is getting better. I will appoint List as the new commander of the 2nd. Then Model will be able to concentrate on the 9th Army again. I think that Model could be commander of the Heeresgruppe Süd, as soon as the operations are done.
Guderian: “I hope you have success. I do not have to repeat how important these operations are. How are the new tanks doing?”
Manstein: “The Elephants passed their fire test. Model taught the Russians a lesson. However there are still a lot of technical problems. Only half of them are ready for combat, the others are in the garage. I do not think that we can use them in a mobile combat. But we will use them somehow. The Panthers and Tigers have not been involved so far. I hold them back for another surprise! How is the situation in Italy?”
Rommel: “We will have to face an Allied landing at the Italian mainland soon. We are gathering new troops, mainly from France. Sooner or later we will need reinforcements from Russia too.”
Manstein: “I know, but now ‘Catalaunian’ has priority. But I think I will be able to send you the 2nd Army end of September.”
Guderian:”I have another issue I want to talk to you. As Goebbels said the German public is very upset about the British bombings. Some even want the Nazis back. This is very dangerous. I think now it is time to change our politics. I think Goebbels should start the political campaign right now. We will show the crimes of the Nazis. Especially the treatment of political enemies in the KZ. Of course we will also show what they did to the Jews and other nations but the focus will be what the Nazis did to their own fellow countrymen. Next Goebbels will disband the NSDAP and all Nazi organizations. He will retire and give his job to Ameluxen. Then we will try to form new parties and trade units at a local scale and make communal elections. This will help us to secure order and make peace negotiations easier.”
Rommel: “Heinz, you are right. Do it the way you want it. But I have another idea. Take the British POWs and let them straighten Hamburg. I think this will teach them a good lesson.”

No desicions needed today. So relax and enjoy your day!:san_wink:

King Kurt

12-14-2005, 13:27

Franconicus

I love the OPERATION GOMHORRA post. It opens up a whole new line - or is it lines - for the story to go. Potentially loads of decisions - subs or fighters, bombers or fighters, east or west, remove the Nazis or renaisance of the Nazis. If the Germans manage to bloody the Russian nose and create a defensive line, the possibility of a German Soviet peace is a possibity with the Germans turning on the UK/ USA - Bomber Harris might have a lot to answer to:san_rolleyes:

I had thought the tread had been becoming a bit predictable, but this changes it all. It had looked all comfortable with all the troops home by Christmas (2005!) but now I can see this running and running. Well done, I can't wait to make some decisions

Kraxis

12-14-2005, 22:28

Good chapter... I didn't agree with a lot of the details, but they fit your ideas good so no point in complaining about that, they only open up more juicy options.

And that last one would be good... "Look at what your friends did. Now you get to clean up."

Franconicus

12-15-2005, 08:22

Look at this! 35,000 civilians killed and everybody is happy! :san_cry:

- Bomber Harris might have a lot to answer to:san_rolleyes:

Listen, King. The Germans know that four men made the decision for the attack. They still do not know who they are, but they know their code names at least: Kagemusha, King Kurt, discovery1, Kraxis. So you better beware:eeeek:

I didn't agree with a lot of the details
Which ones?

King Kurt

12-15-2005, 10:25

:san_cry:

Listen, King. The Germans know that four men made the decision for the attack. They still do not know who they are, but they know their code names at least: Kagemusha, King Kurt, discovery1, Kraxis. So you better beware:eeeek:

I believe the standard excuse was "I was only obeying orders":san_rolleyes:

Franconicus

12-15-2005, 15:30

I believe the standard sentence is death.:san_shocked:

ROKKOSOVSKI
After Zhukov left Rokossovsky reflects the situation. He knows how important it is to cross the Dnjepr as soon as possible. Germans may not get time to enforce their positions.
Rokossovsky stares at the maps. His front is advancing along the Desna. The river covers the right flank. Belarusian has the longest flank of all. Now they put half of the distance to Kiev behind. It is getting harder to keep the supply coming. And the Germans are still quiet. If they attack now his front will be in trouble.
Vatutin’s 1st Ukrainian has a much better position. He gathers his troops near Konotop and has no open flanks. Konev’s 2nd Ukrainian is still behind plan.
Rokossovsky thinks about his opponents. The Germans still did not face up. This is very unusual. Do they wait at the Dnjepr? Or are they really leaving the country. Rokossovsky shakes his head. After all these hard battles? The Germans won’t give up like that.
The Dnjepr is a very wide river, ideal for defense. There are only few crossings that can be used by an army: Kiev, Tscherkassy, Kremenchug, Dnjepropetrowsk, Saporischja. If the Germans want to withdraw behind the Dnjepr, they have to use those. And if the Soviets want to catch them, they need at least one of them. And Kiev is the most important.
And to get Kiev is his job. He has to follow the Desna, cross it north of Kiew and then cross the Dnjepr too. It would be a big surprise if the Germans are not waiting there. On the way to Kiev he will pass Tschernihiw, a town at the Desna. Maybe the Germans will be there too.
After these reflections Rokossovsky calls his adjutant and gives him orders. The engineers will try to improve the roads and get the supply running. Rokossovsky orders to use a big amount of his AAA to protect the supply routes but even then the air defense shield will be very thin. 65th Army has to send 60 tanks to the 70th. In reply they get the damaged ones. 70th army will advance along the Desna until they reach Tschernihiw, 60th will cut off the bow of the river and go straight to Kiev. The air force will have support groups of fighters and ground attack planes for each spearhead. Additionally each spearhead gets a Cossack unit to reconnoiter behind the German lines.
To Rokossovsky’s surprise everything goes well. Led by the Cossacks 60th and 70th Army advance without meeting German forces. At August 3rd the cavalry espies German fortifications at the entrance of Tschernihiw. They report of strong German forces in the surrounding of the town.
At August 4th the German air force begins a massive strike against the supply convoys north of Konotop. Despite the desperate fight of the AAAs and fighter patrols the German attack leads to high losses and a complete chaos. There is an almost 100km long traffic jam. The Soviets have to use their tanks to clear the street from burned trucks.
At August 5th heavy rain slows the air attacks down. However, rain does not decrease the logistic problems.
At August 5th the 70th Army is only 20 km away from Tschernihiw. The 60th has only 70 km left until they reach Kiev. However, the Cossacks spot a strong defense ring 50 km east of Kiev. It goes from the Dnjepr in the south to the Desna in the north. Both armies had to stop their advance because they had to wait for fuel.
The commander of the 70th Galanin and the commander of the 60th Chernyakhovski ask their commander for more supply and new orders.

Rokossovsky sees these options:

Tell the 70th Army to attack Tschernihiw. This town with the crossing is too important to ignore it. Tell the 70th Army to build a defensive ring at the south side of Tschernihiw. It is sufficient to seal the town and its river crossing. Any attack would only divert forces from the main target.
Advance forward to Kiev. Tschernihiw is not important. Let the other armies do the job.

a) Tell the 60th to bypass the German position and to cross the Desna north of them.
b) Tell the 60th to break through the German lines.
c) Tell the 60th to wait for reinforcements. Send either the 70th (in case of 3.) or the 2nd Tank Army. Though you loose time the 60th could use it to bring its infantry and artillery as well as engineering equipment to the front.

Kagemusha

12-15-2005, 15:57

And The deciseve battle begins..:san_wink: First number 1.) .We have to make space If we lump all our forces together We are in the world of hurt,we need operational space. second option c) Call the 2.nd Tank army forward so we can start the main assault against Kiev. Im afraid that we are trapped already.Our right flank is open and the German passivity is suggesting that we are about to witness the biggest back hand attack from Germans in the whole war.But there is no turning back anymore.We have a 100km traffic jam behind us so the only option is to punch straight through the German defensive line.Are there any news from the Partisans in the depth of the German defense.What divisions are spotted and where?

Franconicus

12-15-2005, 17:28

Kagemusha,
Most of the partisans were located between Kursk and Kiev. So in fact they are behind the Soviet front now.

Of course we have some information from the Cossacks, the air force, POWs and intelligence. I try to give you a summary.

North of the Desna from Bryansk to Tschernihiw there is the 35th, 53rd and 55th Corps of the 2nd Tank Army (although they do not seem to have many tanks).

At Tschernihiw there seems to be another corps. Of cause we have very little information what is in the rear.

The Germans have their position all along the western bank of the Dnjepr. Kiev is full of troops. They seem to belong to the 2nd Army. It is not clear if they will stay there or if they just cross the river and move somewhere else.
Another corps of the 2nd (13th) is still southeast of Kiev. They move to the town too and are followed by Konev.

There is still another corps (7th) of the 2nd Aermy still at Charkov.

South of Charkov there is the 1st Tank Army, further south the 6th Army.

We will send more planes to search the big German tank formations. Give you more info soon.

Do you still have a general view? :san_wink:

discovery1

12-15-2005, 19:12

1b. KILLL GERMANS!

Kagemusha

12-15-2005, 19:20

discovery1

12-15-2005, 21:57

Franconicus, could you email me those power point slides? my hotmail should be in my profile. Thanks.

Kraxis

12-16-2005, 06:06

We are bound now... So we have to make the choices that the Russians would.

1 and c. Everything seems to go well, so some sort of advance must be made, but now is the time for a 'rest' to letthe infantry catch up for the proper attacks. Since the Germans are already well placed it would be foolish to attack them piecemeal, unless there is a local superiority.

The details I do not agree with:
The 20,000 volounteers. Germany had few reserves left by then, men would not be allowed to just volounteer from their civil jobs (Total War now).

The Germans would not change their stance in regards to the Allies. They would hate them for what they did, but surprisingly they haven't since held a true grudge for anything but the last few attacks (Dresden the most infamous). They would never jump into the other boat and dislike the Russians less, propaganda has kept the contempt, fear and anger pretty high. Besides the Germans were staunch... the bombing only made them rally around their leaders and themselves. If anything the bombing made them tougher and more liekly to resist the Allies (though you have factored that, you have it come from a fear prospect rather than from a sense of duty).

The German leaders would never consider their own bombings to be terrorbombing outright. The practice was to bomb when an enemy was on the verge of breaking, so a need for a costly citybattle was averted. In Britain it was a little different, here the Lufwaffe actiavely tried to hit the industry. Coventry was important in the this regard, and in London they targeted the docks with their large stores of supplies and such. To them the industry and other strategic targets were first, any loss of life (and thus a lowering of morale) was just a bonus so to say. The Allies was directly opposite, kill civilians, destroyed industry was just added benefit.

Also they would not turn tail too and look to the east. They would still want a peace with the west. Whiel they did not have the pathological hatred of the Communists that Hitler had, they most certainly were Paternal Autocrats (played HOI you know what I mean). They didn't like the Russians and Communists either, thinking they were going to be wholly unreasonable and brutal. They would jsut have preferred to stay well away from war with the SU alltogether, but now it is the priority.
They would understand that the bombing was only a means to get a stronger bargainingchip, that the Allies would prosecute a strong war for as long as the war was on.

King Kurt

12-16-2005, 12:35

Quick post as I am off on the work's Christmas lunch!!

I am at one with Kraxis I think. We must secure the bridgehead but we need to exercise a little caution while we regroup.

I will slightly disagree with Kraxis about German reaction to Allied bombing. There were instances of the population taking revenge on shot down airmen for example. Also, the post war reaction was coloured by the then political situation - the UK/USA were initially the occupying force, were also seen as co defenders against the Soviets during the Cold War etc. Also the west did pour resources into the rebuilding of Europe - the Marshall plan etc - so surely there was a great deal of not biting the hand that feeds you.:san_laugh:

Kraxis

12-16-2005, 15:24

I will slightly disagree with Kraxis about German reaction to Allied bombing. There were instances of the population taking revenge on shot down airmen for example. Also, the post war reaction was coloured by the then political situation - the UK/USA were initially the occupying force, were also seen as co defenders against the Soviets during the Cold War etc. Also the west did pour resources into the rebuilding of Europe - the Marshall plan etc - so surely there was a great deal of not biting the hand that feeds you.:san_laugh:
Of course not... But just because one side does something bad doesn't mean that the other side suddenly looks good. It was mostly civilians who killed the aircrews, and who can blame them really? I mean from their point of view it was murder. But they did not kill fighter pilots or other prisoners they got their hands on. They had a directred hatred, which wasn't pointed at the Allies in general but the bombers.

Franconicus

12-17-2005, 22:20

The details I do not agree with:
The 20,000 volounteers. Germany had few reserves left by then, men would not be allowed to just volounteer from their civil jobs (Total War now).
You think 20,000 are too much? Appr. Germany had a population of some 100 million, so ca. 50 million men. If you divide that to 100 birth years (1844, 1845 , ... 1943) then you have 500,000 men per year. If the military only recruited every second of them then they got 25,000 brand new recruits per month.

If memory serves the fighter pilots (and the crews of the subs) were mainly volunteers. There was a big propaganda going on to get young men to the fighters. Marseille, Galland, Priem, Kretschmer .... they were the idols of this generation. And it was much more adorable to become a fighter ass than to fight in the dirt of Russia. If I remember many of the historical volunteers came from other weapons (bombers, marine ....) so not all of them had to be new recruits.

Back to our story. The Nazi party is knocked and I would believe that many of the active members (at least the s,art ones) would be glad to find a place to disappear. Why not in the fighter squadrons. You go as Nazi9 and you come back as hero.

So I do not think that 20,000 volunteers is too much. But do not be afraid; that does not mean that Germany has 20,000 new pilots over night. The training camps would not have been able to train them and after all you need more than pilots.

The Germans would not change their stance in regards to the Allies. They would hate them for what they did, but surprisingly they haven't since held a true grudge for anything but the last few attacks (Dresden the most infamous). They would never jump into the other boat and dislike the Russians less, propaganda has kept the contempt, fear and anger pretty high. Besides the Germans were staunch... the bombing only made them rally around their leaders and themselves. If anything the bombing made them tougher and more liekly to resist the Allies (though you have factored that, you have it come from a fear prospect rather than from a sense of duty).

The opinion of the postwar Germans about the bombing is very difficult and a bit absurd. You should not judge the war Germans by that!

What was the stance of the Germans? The Entende nations put all the blame of WW1 on Germany (which Germans did not agree) and punished them by Versailles. The conditions of Versailles were very hard – Germany should never be able to become a power again. Although many Germans may have thought that WW2 was necessary they surely had no illusions that the Allies would give them the blame again and that they would try to punish Germany even harder.

Although it was not obvious in 1943 that Germany had lost the war people started to think what would be if ... ..

Because of propaganda and because of the terrible war crimes Germans did in Russia they could expect that the Soviets would have bloody revenge. So they feared Russia more than the western allies. Germany had not done much against GB (compared to other nations) and nothing against the US. Both were civilised nations like Germany. So maybe there could be a compromise.

Hamburg showed that the western allies were not only trying to fight the German army but also to kill as many Germans as possible. Hamburg was not an accident, it was well planed and the target was the population. So if Germany would surrender it was very likely that the Allies would try to kill the German population completely. It sounds strange but you know there were plans in this direction.

Another point: Stalingrad was a nightmare, but the Wolga is hundreds of km away. Hamburg is not. Millions of refugees run all over Germany and spread the news. So the thread from the bombers was much more real than the thread from the Russian tanks.

The German leaders would never consider their own bombings to be terrorbombing outright. The practice was to bomb when an enemy was on the verge of breaking, so a need for a costly citybattle was averted. In Britain it was a little different, here the Lufwaffe actiavely tried to hit the industry. Coventry was important in the this regard, and in London they targeted the docks with their large stores of supplies and such. To them the industry and other strategic targets were first, any loss of life (and thus a lowering of morale) was just a bonus so to say. The Allies was directly opposite, kill civilians, destroyed industry was just added benefit.

At the beginning. Yes. After the attack against Berlin Hitler announced and started terror attacks. Finally the V1 and V2 were only for revengeand so they were named. (Vergeltung)

Also they would not turn tail too and look to the east. They would still want a peace with the west. Whiel they did not have the pathological hatred of the Communists that Hitler had, they most certainly were Paternal Autocrats (played HOI you know what I mean). They didn't like the Russians and Communists either, thinking they were going to be wholly unreasonable and brutal. They would jsut have preferred to stay well away from war with the SU alltogether, but now it is the priority.
They would not care about communism. It was much easier to make peace with the Russians. If the Germans were able to beat the Red Army Stalin would probably have had to agree. The Germans could fight the Russians. That was the difference. There was little they could do against GB and the US. The bombing of London was ridiculous compared to the raids of the RAF. The submarine war was lost. So best case scenario would have been a victory in Italy.

I think a peace with Russia was more likely. A peace with the Western Allies was much easier after a peace with Stalin.

They would understand that the bombing was only a means to get a stronger bargainingchip, that the Allies would prosecute a strong war for as long as the war was on.

No. Bombing never helped to get peace. This is what the Germans understood: the Allies want a unconditional surrender and they want to kill as many Germans as possible. So guess what they will do if we capitulate?

The Allies attacked Hamburg after Hitler was gone, after the Germans had stopped the war of the Atlantic and the raids over Britain.

If they wanted to improve their chances they could have demonstrated their military strength in Italy.

We have now the situation that both sides want to have peace. However there is a lot of mistrust on both sides. And the Western Allies do not have a clear concept for the post war architecture. So they keep on bombing hoping that would solve their problem. And both sides think they can improve their position by military means. So right now I think there are little chances for peace. That does not mean that the door is closed for all times.

Franconicus

12-17-2005, 22:28

Here is a little map i drew about the Soviet situation:(Franc is this completely wrong?I think i know where the center of the attack is but im not so sure about the flanks):san_wink:

https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/1034/situation0su.jpg

Not exactly. Rokossovsky is north, the Vatutin and in the south Konev.

Our sector is much smaler. Charkow is still occupied by the Germans!

How can you post this map. Can you teach me? Or can you post mine? I think it would be great if we all had the same picture!

Franconicus

12-17-2005, 22:33

Franconicus, could you email me those power point slides? my hotmail should be in my profile. Thanks.
Sure! I will send them on Monday or Tuesday.
Free delivery for Christmas:san_cool:

discovery1

12-18-2005, 09:49

Thanks Franconicus!. Oh, and the only way I know of(yeah I'm a powerpoint novice) would be to take a screenshot of the slide and then host it using, say, imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us/)

Franconicus

12-19-2005, 09:06

This is the past:
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie11zd.jpg
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie23gf.jpg
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie35rd.jpg

And this is present:
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie41hz.jpg

Hope everybody can see it!

Thanx discovery!

STALIN IS COMING!
August 9th. Zhukov and the leaders of the three Fronts meet to discuss the situation.
“Comrades! I just had a phone call from Stalin. He urges us to cross the Dnjepr and to take Kiev as fast as possible. He wants to have the town before he meets Churchill and Roosevelt. He will visit us next week to observe our progress. I’d like to discuss what plan we want to show him. But before we talk about strategy give me a status report.”
Rokossovsky: “General Zhukov! On Friday and Saturday there was heavy rain. On Sunday it stopped raining but it was still very cloudy. Today’s forecast is more sun shine and during the week it will become warmer. So we will have ideal weather for air operations.
During the last days there was little activities of our air armies. Despite the rains our engineers managed to keep supply running. The railroads are fixed now. The front troops have now infantry and artillery. The lost tanks are replaced by new ones from the front reserve.
I gave the 70th Army order to attack Tschernihiw. There first group reached the German positions at the evening of August 5th. It attacked the German line immediately and managed to take the Germans by surprise. It broke through. It kept on pushing all night long, penetrated the town and managed to take the road bridge. The Germans tried to blast it but there is only little damage.
Next day we tried to bring reinforcements cross the river and repair the bridge so that it can carry tanks too. During the whole day the bridge and both sides were under constant fire. The Germans have a lot of artillery. The Germany also attacked with infantry and there were severe losses on both sides. In the evening of August 6th the first tanks crossed the bridge. The next two day we tried to enlarge the bridgehead, but in vane. The Germans, the 47th Tank Corps of the 9th Army, are very strong. We think that they have 50,000 men in or near the town. They have a lot of artillery but did not use tanks so far. They fight our tanks with ATGs and mines. Currently we have POWs of the 6th Infantry Division and the 245 and 904 Assault Tank Det 904.
70th Army destroyed 11 Assault Tanks. It lost 6,000 men and 28 tanks. The current combat strength is 90000 men, 1660 guns, 97 tanks.
The Germans have still most of the northern part of the town as well as the railroad bridge and the some houses at the southern bank. We will start a new attack today and hope that the air force can give us enough support to break the German resistance. But I doubt that we are strong enough to take the town quickly. Germans are strong and they are willing to give us a fight now.
60th and 2nd Tank Army are ready to attack. They are rested and have enough fuel, ammo and fuel to start an attack. However our stock is still small. Together the have 130,000 men, 2,000 guns and 580 tanks.”
Vatutin: “1st Ukrainian reached the Kiev front too. Our spearhead is the 38th and 40th with 140,000 men, 2,800 guns and 390 tanks. Behind them there are two Guard Armies, the 6th and the 7th with 160,000 men, 3200 guns, 42 SPG and 139 MLRs. The reserve is formed by the 69th and 1st Tank Army, 90,000 men, 1,300 guns and 630 tanks. All these armies are well equipped and ready to attack.”
“Excellent! Konev, what is the 2nd Ukrainian doing?”
“We finally reached the Dnjepr too. 5th Guard Army and 5th Guard Tank Army are ready to strike. They have 130,000 men, 1800 guns, 800 tanks, 26 SPGs and 92 MRLs.”
“Brilliant! So everything is ready for the big strike! Before I fix our strategy I want to hear your proposals.”
Rokossovsky: “All of our troops are ready to attack Kiev, which is definitely the key to success in this campaign. So let us stick to our plan. Let me cross the Dnjepr in the north and Konev in the south of Kiev. We will cut off the town while Vatutin starts a frontal attack. If the Germans will not run away we will own this town within two weeks!”
Vatutin does not agree:”Rokossovsky, we have three fronts here with more than half a million men concentrated in a small area. We do not need them all to attack one single town. And we should disperse our troops. So this is my proposal. Let Rokossovsky’s 60th and 2nd Army turn northwards and cross the Desna right in the middle between Kiev and Tschernihiw. The German position will not be very strong there. Then they can cross the Dnjepr too and even support the Tschernihiw battle. And the German will have to remove troops from the Kiev front.
Additionally let Konev turn south. Let him cross the river north of Tscherkassy and the attack this town from both sides. In the meanwhile I will attack Kiev frontal. I have enough men, guns and tanks for a successful fight in the town. And once Rokossovsky and Konev are on the right bank of the Dnjepr the battle will be won.”
Rokossovsky replies: “No, that is far too dangerous. We may not splinter our forces. Did you think what would happen if we cross the river so far in the north and you are attacked by the German Tank Armies?”
Vatutin: “Sure! I would stand until you are in their back!”
Zhukov asks Konev: “What do you think?”
“I think Vatutin is right. But his plan is not ambitious enough and he forgets one thing. Our flanks are vulnerable. Belarusian front and mine have a flank of more than 250km each. The enemy must be foolish if he does not see. So this is my proposal. Let Belarus turn north, cross the Desna, the Dnjepr and the Prypjat. Let them take Tschernihiw. Then they can turn south to help Vatutin or they can turn east to meat Popow’s Bryansk Front. In the meantime I will cross the Dnjepr and take Tscherkassy as Vatutin propose. But then I will turn south and cross the Bug as soon as possible. I will operate in the rear of the German Heeresgruppe Süd. While their right wing collapses Vatutin will take Kiew and the Germans are lost.”
Rokossovsky: “Didn’t you say that our flanks are vulnerable. What you want to do is suicide!”
Konev: “Wait a second. If you take Tschernihiw this would help to secure our north flank. But of course I know we have to do something to make them stronger. So listen! First, order 3rd Ukrainian Front to attack Charkow. This would shorten my flank, ease supply and pin additional German forces. Then my flank four armies will move south to the line Charkov, Polatawa, Tscherkassy. Again this will ease supply and raise pressure on the German troops, especially the 1st Tank Army and the 6th Army. Then transfer the 1st GdTk Corps and the 20th Tk Corps from Bryansk Front to our corridor. Of we use them as a strategic reserve they can stabilize both flanks.”
Zhukov: “This is really a very interesting plan. But isn’t it too ambitious. I doubt that our air force will be able to support all of these operations. And if we take the two corps away from Bryansk Front they would loose all their offensive capabilities.”
Konev: “So what? Belarus operating at their open left flank, 1st Ukrainian taking Kiev and 2nd Ukrainian running in their rear and advancing to the sea, that should be enough offensive even for Stalin. But we can change the plan. Leave the two tank corps where they are but order Popow to advance to Gomel.”
Zhukov shakes his head: “Thank you for your ideas. I will think about it and tell you our strategy this evening. Please do not forget Stalin. I want you to prepare detailled information about combat strength and all intelligence information.”

What will Zhukov order?
1. The Rokossovsky Plan: Make a concentric attack on Kiev?
2. Vatutin’s Plan: Let Rokossovsky cross the Desna between Kiev and Tschernihiw and let Konew cross the Dnjepr between Tscherkassy and Kiev. Then let them take Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy and turn to Kiev. In the meantime Vatutin will attack the town from the east side.
3. Konev’s plan: Let Rokossovsky turn north and cross the rivers. Let Vatutin take Kiev. Let Konev cross the Dnjepr between Kiev and Tscherkassy. Then let him advance as fast as possible south to cross the Bug and finally reach the sea.
3a. Order the 3rd Ukrainian to attack Charkov. Call for reinforcements from Bryansk Front.
3b. Order Bryansk and 3rd Ukrainian to attack.
3c. Let both stay where they are. Let us first kill defeat the German tank armies. Then it is time for the other fronts to join.

discovery1

12-20-2005, 04:32

1) Decisive strength at the decisive point

King Kurt

12-20-2005, 14:26

I think I would go for 1 as well. This is as much about politics as it is about military achievement. Stalin sees Kiev as key for political pressure on the Allies, so let's concentrate on getting across the Dnjepr and taking Kiev.

My main concern is the southern flank of the drive to Kiev. It looks a bit open. There appears to be no german troops there - a big gap between the 13th and the 7th - but that might not be the case. Perhaps we should get the 2nd and 3rd Ukranian to investigate and, if there is a gap, exploit it to pull troops from Kiev. However, keeping the troops as concentrated as possible is critical, as there has still to be a major battle with the Germans.:san_grin:

Kagemusha

12-20-2005, 15:05

Thanks for the maps Franc! I believe Stalin wont accept any other plan then number 1).So number 1 it is.:san_wink:

Franconicus

12-20-2005, 16:01

Do I hear one voice? Must be the Christmas mood :san_laugh:
Let's see if Kraxis agrees :san_undecided:

King Kurt

12-20-2005, 16:29

Do I hear one voice? Must be the Christmas mood :san_laugh:
:
Three wise men just before Christmas....spooky!!!:san_laugh:

Franconicus

12-21-2005, 15:20

:san_wink: Kraxis is too late. So he has to accept the desicion :san_grin:

THE SILENCE IS OVER

July 29th: German government starts a propaganda campaign regarding crimes of the government of Adolf Hitler.

August 6th: Italian workers strike at Torino and Milano.

August 9th: German 17th Army starts operation ‘Kriemhild’, the clearance of the Kuban bridgehead.

August 10th: Stalin visits the front at Kursk. He says: “Victory is close! Days of fascism are numbered. They are retreating everywhere. Now there is no time to hesitate and worry about victims! Now it is time to act and win the war” He insists that 1st Ukrainian penetrates the city until August 20th. He will meet Churchill and Roosevelt at Stalingrad on September 1st. Then Kiev has to be liberated.

August 10th and 11th:
Fighting all along the front line hits its first peak. The Soviet armies start their operations to liberate Kiev. German troops start a counter operation at the northern sector. Hundreds of airplanes on both sides try to support their ground forces and there are dog fights everywhere.
At Tschernihiw the 70th Army tries to enlarge the bridgehead. The operation is stopped by German infantry. German Stukas (StG2) attack the artillery positions of the 70th Army. The situation becomes critical when infantry of the German 46th Tank Corps cross the Desna at the seam of the 70th Army and the 65th Army and threatens the rear of the 70th. They can be stopped by artillery fire and reserves of the 70th Army. 47th Tank Corps suddenly attacks the Russians in the town. It brakes through the Russian lines and pushes into the artillery positions. A brave counter attack of the 65th Army manages to stop the Germans and rescues the rest of the 70th Army.
North of Kiev the 60th Army attacks the German 23rd Corps on the other side of the Desna. Il2 and level bombers support the operation. The 60th Army manages to cross the river and built a makeshift bridge. 2nd Tank Army prepares to cross too. 23rd Corps withdraws.
East of Kiev 40th and 38th Army bombard the defensive position of the 31st Corps. Soviet level bombers join. The city of Kiev is bombed too.
South of Kiev the 5th Guard Army crosses the Dnjepr. They get strong support by the air armies. The German 13th Corps is forced to retreat. 5th Guard Tank Army waits for there operation. They are attacked by the Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 ‘Immelmann’. Hauptmann Rudel and his comrades destroy 20 Soviet tanks.
The armies of the 2nd Ukrainian which form the southern front advance south. Their target is the line Tscherkassy, Poltawa, Charkow. Their recon detachments spot German units near Tscherkassy and Poltawa.
The Red Air Armies’ focus is the support of the river crossing operations and the bombing of Kiev. The bombers are attacked by German interceptors of the JG51 and 52 during their approach and departure. The German bomber squadrons KG4 and KG51 bomb the railroad system in and near Konotop. KG1 and KG3 attack roads and installations in the rear.
Zhukov discusses the situation with his staff at Vatutin’s HQ near Kiev.
“Excellent news, Gentlemen! Stalin is gone and the battle finally started. From the prisoners we took during the last days we have a much better picture of the German positions. Look, the 9th Army is here, north of Kiev on the other side of Desna. The area of Kiev is occupied by the 2nd Army. 4th Tank Army is still missing. Probably it is south of Kiev.
Our offensive against Kiev goes very well. Congratulation to Belarus and 2nd Ukrainian for the crossings of the Desna and Dnjepr. Well done! We are in the ‘Gothenwall’. Now we have to bring our tank armies across the river and push through the German defence. Vatutin is ready for the frontal attack, too. I guess, it won’t take long until we take Kiev.
Belarusian Front has some problems at Tschernihiw. We must keep an eye on it!”
Rokossovsky adds: “We may not underrate the German operation in the north. 70th and 65th Army may not be able to hold it for long. 70th is crippled and 65th enfeebled. We have to send reinforcements. Belarusian cannot continue to raid against Kiev and defend his northern flank. We need some help. I ask Vatutin to send me the 1st Tank army and the 69th army. Then we can repel the Germans.”
Vatutin: “We should not touch our reserves before the battle started. I have to make a frontal attack. God knows how big the casualties will be. I do not want to get stuck because we diversified our reserve. Why don’t we call the air force to solve this little problem?”
Rokossovsky: “You know that the air force is already overextended. They have to support the river crossings, the frontal assault and to protect our flanks and the supply. They cannot fulfil every task. They suffered severe casualties during the last day and if we overtax them they will soon be exhausted.”
Konev: “Rokossovsky is right. We have to protect our flanks. And please do not forget the south! We spotted some German units there but we still do not know what is going on there. So this is what we should do: Send the 1st Tank Army north to repel the German attack. Send the 69th south to reinforce our armies there. Let the 3rd Ukrainian attack Charkow now. Charkow is almost cut off. We should easily take the town. This will help us in the south. And let the air force concentrate on Kiev and on the supply!”
Vatutin: “No! That would be a big mistake! Do not dissolve the reserve. If we follow your plan we all our forces would be engaged. We would have nothing to react!”
Konew: “Well, we could ask Stavka to send us new armies. If we transfer the 1st GdTk Corps and the 20th Tk Corps from Bryansk Front and get 35th Guard from Stavka reserve we could build a strong task force which we could place south of Konotop.”
Zhukov sighs: “Stalin will not be happy if we demand more troops! This would also mean to use all of our reserves at Kiev.”
What are your judgement?
I. The Soviet generals are underrating the German operation at our northern wing. We should call back the armies which are currently crossing the Desna and the Dnjepr.
II. No, they are right! The Soviets are strong enough to repel any German attack. We have to take Kiev!
1. Rokossovsky’s plan: Transfer two armies from 1st Ukrainian to support your right wing.
2. Vatutin’s plan: Keep your reserve and let the air force handle the German attack.
3. Konev’s plan: Transfer one army to the north and one to the south. Let 3rd Ukrainian start their operation to Charkow.
a) Ask Stavka for more armies.
b) No we have more than enough!

https://img358.imageshack.us/img358/3346/prsentationhandout9mh.jpg

I wish you a peaceful christmas :san_wink:

Kraxis

12-21-2005, 16:27

The Russian way...

II

3b
It is obvious the Germans will do something, or else they wouldn't have sent 47th in this early. It would never have been able to do anything more than local achievements alone in its secotr (too far from the decisive point), clearly it is a start of something bigger.

Kagemusha

12-21-2005, 16:37

I think Kraxis is right.I choose 3b also. The Germans seem to be way too static on their defence. Btw when do we get to play the Germans again?:san_wink:

Franconicus

12-21-2005, 16:38

The Russian way...

I (ehhh what does this do?)
2nd Tank Army and 5th Guard Tank Army won't cross the rivers; 60th Army and 5th Guard Army will come back. That means Belarusian Front and 2nd Ukrainian stop attacking Kiev.

Kraxis

12-21-2005, 16:44

Oh in that case I reverse the first...

The Russians haev never been good at stopping their own attacks when they went well. They would protect the attacks but not halt them completely.

Franconicus

12-21-2005, 16:51

I think Kraxis is right.I choose 3b also. The Germans seem to be way too static on their defence.You are really fast today. But do you chose I or II?:san_huh:

Btw when do we get to play the Germans again?:san_wink:
You have to stay with the Russians until I do not know what to with the Germans. :san_grin:
By the way, in Kraxis play you made Hitler win the war. Now do the same for Stalin :san_tongue:

Kagemusha

12-21-2005, 17:07

I take the option II.~:) There is no turning back at this point now. But i would still like to express my worries.Soon we are starting an frontal assault on Kiev and we are making those bridgeheads on both sides also.If i think myself as an German commander i would infact let the Russians cross the rivers and becouse the bridgeheads will be hard to defend and supply those can be turned into deathtraps.If the German center at Kiev can stop our center(Which i think is highly possible). A gathered Assault on our flank can lead to an biggest encirclement in the whole war.We have to remeber that our armies are between two major rivers.If i would worry about our flank it would be the Southern flank.:bow:

discovery1

12-21-2005, 21:16

II and 3b

Franconicus

12-22-2005, 08:17

Unity is strength. Now in the middle of the roaring cannons you make quick and consistant decisions. Congrat! Hope they are right too :san_laugh:

kage, you sound just like Model. I strongly support the plan - but I have strong worries just in case we will fail :san_grin:

King Kurt

12-22-2005, 11:15

I have a day off work and the main battle begins.

I am in broad agreement with everybody. I to have concerns about the southern flank - not a lot of information. However we must remember that the German line is stretched from what it was due to the large salient created. So press on, but be aware of what might happen. Also, remember, the political objective is Kiev and crossing the Dnjepr.

Christmas greetings to everybody - are we having a holiday, or do we have to sneak off to the computer occasionally!!:san_laugh:

Franconicus

12-22-2005, 13:20

I did not want to post another one this year. But due to your quick response here is the next one.
I do not think thatthere will be another one this year. So relax and enjoy your holiday. Of course I would be pleased if the discussion goes on.
By the way: you not only can chose 1, 2, ... you can also make own proposals.

So mery christmas :san_smiley:

STRIKE AND COUTERSTRIKE

August 12th. Zhukov decided in favour of Konev’s proposal. The coming days will show if he was right.

The struggle with Kiev is getting bigger and bigger.

The 60th Army completely transferred to the right bank of the Desna. Although the German 23rd Corp tries to repel it they can even expand the bridgehead and reach the Dnjepr. A first push across this river failed but 60th will try it again this night. 2nd Tank Army will start to cross the river Desna tomorrow. All operations are strongly supported and shielded by the Russian air force.

In the south the 5th Guard Army finishes to cross over the Dnjepr. Although they are attacked from the 13th Corp in the north and 52nd in the south they manage to stand up. This bridgehead is supported by strong air units too. More troops are crossing the river. The 5th Guard Tank Army is supposed to cross tomorrow. German aircrafts make massive raids against both armies and the bridge. German Stukas attacks the 5th Guard Tank Army all day long. During night level bombers attacks both banks and damaged the pontoon bridge. The bridgehead is under constant fire of the German artillery.

1st Ukrainian finally starts the frontal attack. Two days of bombardment destroyed the barb wire barricades, demolished the mines and demolished the positions of the defenders. The defenders, one Hungarian and two Romanian divisions struggle hard against the Russian assault. They are supported by strong artillery fire. Especially the Nebelwerfer tear holes in the rows of the Soviet assault groups. In the afternoon the Soviets break in. An immediate counter strike of German reserve clears the situation. At night the artilleries of both sides fire on the enemy’s position again. Tomorrow 40th and 38th Army will continue to attack.

Soviet air force tries to support these operations as good as possible. Ground support planes attack the German artillery positions while level bombers attack the city. The German concentrates a lot of AAA at the Kiev area, casualties are high.

In the north the German tank forces continue their advance. 70th Army and 65th Army can not stop the German tanks. German Luftwaffe constantly attacks the Russian armies. After high casualties they have to withdraw eastwards. During night the 1st Tank Army arrives and is ready to step in tomorrow.

In the south our armies reach the German positions at Tscherkassy and Poltawa. The Germans repel an attack at Poltawa. The Russian army, which does not have the order to take Poltawa, retreats. 69th Army is marching south to strengthen the southern flank. Air patrols spot German troops with tanks moving in Tscherkassy. They probably get ready for an attack towards Kiev.

The German bombers interrupt the railroads round Konotop. The Soviet fighters are not able to stop the Germans attacking our convoys. Many planes are shot down on both sides. At the moment it is impossible to get adequate supply.

A German fighter manages to shoot down seven Soviet planes during three sorties at one day. Due to the painting on his plane his Soviet opponents call him ‘Black Devil’. They try to avoid crossing his path.

3rd Ukrainian starts the operations to conquer Charkow. Malinowsky’s troops reach the gates of the town.

Konev looks at the daily reports. The 5th Guard Army is doing a good job. The crossing of the Dnjepr was much easier than expected. Rokossovsky is still on the other side. If he orders the 5th Guard to advance they may be the first to reach Kiev and to take the town. Stalin would be pleased.

On the other side it might be better to wait for the 5th Guard Tank army. With the combined force of the two Guard armies success is certain. But that means that the 5th has to stay in the narrow bridgehead for two more days. And the Germans try everything to weaken this army. Bombing and artillery bombardment causes already casualties.

And what about the news of German tanks at Tscherkassy. Maybe it is not true. Konev knows that rumours and wrong messages belong to every operation. But if there is a strong tank unit at his left flank this may cause a lot of trouble. Maybe he should fix this problem first. And if he took Tscherkassy he would control a strategic bridge. However, this could take some time. And probably Rokossovsky will win the race to Kiev.

1. We must leave the bridgehead before the German Luftwaffe tears us limb from limb. Order the 5th Guard Army to break through in western direction while the 5th Guard Tank army crosses the river.

2. There are German tanks near Tscherkassy. We have to eliminate them before we attack Kiev. Order the 5th Guard Army to advance south along the bank of Dnjepr and attack Tscherkassy. Order the 5th Guard Tank Army to turn south, too, to march along the left bank and attack Tscherkassy from the other side.

3. We should not start the decisive operation before we have all our forces crossed the river. Order the 5th Guard Army to wait until the 5th Guard Tank is at the right bank.

https://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie61yu.jpg

King Kurt

12-22-2005, 16:26

Kagemusha

12-22-2005, 17:08

I also pick the option number 2. Merry christmas and happy new year fellow arm chair generals!:medievalcheers:

discovery1

12-22-2005, 17:27

The tanks are just a rumor. Go with 1, and charge foward.

Kraxis

12-22-2005, 18:19

It seems odd really... The Germans are using what appears to be two Corps in the north and what I guess to be another two in the south. They can't possibly be enough to cut off this many Russian forces.

UNLESS!!!! Unless they are the 'forgotten' armoured SS troops. We haven't heard of them since the great pullback.

So the problem is that we don't know what is down there. If they are just some generic panzer formations it is not likely they can do enough damage, and it could even be a great benefit that they are not in the way of the attack. But if they are the three strong SS divisions plus whatever, then it could turn into a major disaster.

What to do... what to do...

Well, there was a notion that the SS forces were going to Italy and Germany.

I chance it and say #1.

King Kurt

12-23-2005, 11:12

UNLESS!!!! Unless they are the 'forgotten' armoured SS troops. We haven't heard of them since the great pullback.

#1.
I thought they had been spread around the other armoured units - Manstein would need to dilute this Hitlerite powerbase. but I still wonder about the southern flank.:san_smiley:

Kraxis

12-23-2005, 15:39

I thought they had been spread around the other armoured units - Manstein would need to dilute this Hitlerite powerbase. but I still wonder about the southern flank.:san_smiley:
That was part of my reasoning for #1, but it is too uncertain. Sending some to Italy would be a way to spread them out. But remember loyal Sepp Dietrich, he had a strong will (and that was pretty much it for him) and a good deal of loyalty in his men. I'm sure he could have kept them together.

JimBob

12-23-2005, 17:10

On the subject of the SS-reading through the previous segment I believe the SS isn't there. They will remain together
Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.. Many went to 'probhation companies' now Franconicus said that
The captured were pardoned. They are now in so called probation companies and have the chance to redeem them. Half of them is on the way to Naples, the rest is on the transport to Kiev. If that means probhation companies then you have a group of 3500 SS troops who may not even be together. But if that means total SS Divisions(I have doubts to that) then you have a bigger problem. But we also have this little tidbit
Berger is now leading the transformation of all other SS formations to combat units. In six weeks the first units will be sent to the front.-That's July 14. This segment is dated Aug. 12 that is about 4 weeks. So the Russians have 2 weeks to operate before any signifigantly powerful SS units show up.

So I'm with Kraxis-#1, I don't believe we're facing enough to create a serious threat of encirclement-but if good Franconicus would be willing to give us a general idea of what's in the area. (Germans a short list of corps-panzer/infantry/motorized Russians a list of armies- Guard/Regular Tank/Infantry)

Franconicus

12-23-2005, 22:13

JimBob, it is nice to see that somebody reads my story carefully. :san_wink:

Those of the SS who where found guilty of murdering Hitler and where not executed already are now at the front: 3,500 near Naples and 3,500 near Kiev.

The non Waffen-SS members were transfered into Waffen-SS. All of them had a basic military training before. But it will take some time to form new divisions. The new formations will have Wehrmachts-officers and will be integrated into the Wehrmacht-organisation.

Regarding the existing SS divisons: Manstein needs them. They are strong formations. He will surely avoid to send them back home. So he can either send them to Italy - to teach the Angl-Americans a lesson - or he can use them in Russia.

Regarding the formations: O the maps there are all German and Russian formations that are visible to the Soviets. But of cause they know what you know - that the strongest German formations before Zitadelle were the 9th Army, the 4th Tank Army and Army Detechment Kempf. You find all informations about them and their Soviet counterparts in the internet.

What you and Zhukov do not know is whether the Germans did send some units to Germany or if they changed Corps between the armies.

By the way: I think Kraxis is right. During a battle you get so many information, some important, some not, some true some wrong. But that is normal :san_grin:

Franconicus

12-23-2005, 22:21

For me - a version of 2. Expand the bridgehead, pushing south and west, while getting the 5th Guard tank over the river as well. To push for Kiev full on while still so stretched is foolhardy. Like I have said before, I worry about the southern flank - I want to know what is there. Hurry up the 3rd Ukrainian as well.

Merry Christmas to every body and a Happy New Year - let battle recommence in early January.:san_smiley:
Kurt, just to make this clear: 2 means that the 5th guard tank stays at the east bank. It attacks Tscherkassy from the east while the 5th Guard stays at the western bank and attacks Tscherkassy from there. After they took the town the Tank Army will cross the river.

Franconicus

12-24-2005, 22:08

STALIN'S GIFT

Stalin wants to ipress Churchill and Roosevelt. When they meet he wants to demonstrate them that the Red Army is able to do campaign with airborne operations, just like the ones the Western Allies did at Sicily. So he offers Zhukov some 3,500 men of an elite airborne detachment. They are ready for combat at August 15th.

Zhukov are completly free how to use them. Stalin just wants them to see at a desicive operation and he wants them in action until August 20th.

How do you want to use them?

discovery1

12-25-2005, 00:15

use them to try and secure key bridgeheads in Kiev maybe? although that does sound just a bit suicidal.....

Kagemusha

12-27-2005, 14:11

Drop them behind Kiev and lets see what Germans have in reserve.:san_grin:

Kraxis

12-28-2005, 15:11

Yup, they are too weak to be sent deep into the rear, or even close for that matter in the contested area. They will have to be used in an area where fairly rapid advances are to be expected.

Thus it seem they can only be dropped behind Kiev or one of the bridgeheads.
Since they are mostly for show (Stalin's pets playing in a big game to give him prestige internationally), they need to be protected. Thus I think the northern bidgehead is the best option. To the south are unknown enemy formations, too risky. Kiev is possible but too centrally placed on the line. Wouldn't want the paras to get a pasting by AA, would we now. So only the northern sector remains. A small victory here would not do much, but the propaganda from it would be superb and the impact could easily be played up for the benefit of Stalin.

Franconicus

01-02-2006, 13:40

SOME DOCUMENTS

Although the battle is raging Zhukov has to fly to Moscow to meet Stalin and the STAVKA.. On the way he has time to read some documents he received lately from his commanders and the intelligence.

First Document: Foreign Intelligence – Section Germany – TOP SECRET

Strength of the German Armies in the area of operation (as at July 1st)
2nd Army (General Weiß) 100,000 soldiers, 100 Assault Tanks
XIII. Army Corp 46,000 + 45 AT
VII. Army Corps 50,000 + 55 AT
+ 1 Hungarian Division

9th Army (General Model) 295,000, 658 tanks, 463 AT
XXIII. Army Corp 75,000, 72 AT
XXXXI. Tank Corp, 55,000,133 tanks, 257 AT
XXXXVII. Tank Corp, 65,000, 332 tanks 94 AT
XXXXVI. Tank Corp 60,000, no tanks
XX. Army Corps 40,000, 40 AT
Army Det. Kempf (General Kempf), (126,000, 357 tanks, 155 AT)
XXXXII. Army Corp, 65,000, 80 AT
III. Tank Corp, 35,000, 357 tanks, 25 AT
XI. Army Corps, 26,000, 50 AT

4th Tank Army (General Hoth), 224,000, 1063 tanks, 172 AT
2nd SS Tank Corp 100,000, 494 tanks, 104 AT
LII. Army Corp, 44,000
XXXXVIII Tank Corp, 80,000, 569 tanks, 68 AT

Second Doncument: REPORT OF THE OKW:

The OKW discloses: The enemy continued to attack our positions near Kiev. The deeds of the Romanian and Hungarian divisions must be highlighted. Although outnumbered by 1:20 the defenders managed to hold their positions. The Russians lost 173 tanks and 20,000 men near Kiev.
The Soviets also tried again to cross the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev. 9th Army managed to repel them at the northern sector. In the south the Russians managed to build a small bridge head. They are under constant attacks of the 2nd Army and 4th Tank Army.
At the entire front the Russians lost 358 tanks yesterday. The Luftwaffe managed to fire off 197 planes. Our casualties are 43 planes.

Third Document: Combat Reports – August 13th.

Belarusian Front:
South of Tschernihiw the 1st Tank Army attacks the German 47th Corps and manages to stop it. In the evening the Germans start to withdraw. Casualties are high on both sides. Soviet forces loose 168 tanks, the Germans loose about 100 tanks and ATs.
North of Kiev the 60th Army and the 2nd Tank Army try again to cross the River Dnjepr. After preparation with heavy artillery bombardment the assault divisions have to stand the defence fire from the German 41st Tank Corps. The German have fortified positions and are supported by hundreds of heavy tanks and assault guns. The attacks fail all day long. During night the 60th tries again and manages to build a small bridge head.
Casualties are very high. The 60th has lost most of its combat strength.

1st Ukrainian:
38th and 40th Army finally managed to break through the German lines. The Romanian/Hungarian 31st Corps is on the run. The next German line of defence is 10 km east of Kiev. It is fortified and occupied by the 20th Corp. Tomorrow the 38th and 40th will break through this line, too. Then their forces are exhausted and 6th Guard Army and 7th Guard Army will break into the town.

2nd Ukrainian:
5th Guard Army manages to break out of the bridgehead and pushes west. It is now 50 km southwest of Kiev. After the break through there is only little German resistance. However it is under constant attacks of German Stukas. 5th Guard manages to take a small airport and to destroy some fighter planes. It also manages to take a small fuel stack.
5th Guard Tank Army has almost finished crossing the Dnjepr. Only the heavy artillery is still on the left bank. The 5th Guard tank is under constant artillery bombardment and air attacks. The German attack at the seam of 5th Guard and 5th Guard Tank from the north with the 13th Corp and from the south with the 52nd.
North of Tscherkassy the German 2nd SS Tank Corps start a counter offensive. The 1st Army is taken by surprise. SS division ‘Totenkopf breaks through and gets into the rear of the Soviets. The casualties are very high. Soviet resistance collapses and the Russians retreat.

Air Armies:
The Soviet Air Armies support the operations of the field armies. The focus of the air force is Kiev and the area north of Kiev and south of Tschernihiw. It also covers the supply routes. The Germans air force is very active south of Kiev, especially at the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank Army. They also support the SS Corps. Once more they bomb our supply lines.

Fourth Document: Status Reports (as at August 13th)

Belarusian Front started the operations with 710,000 soldiers, 11,000 guns, 1,700 tanks, 91 SPG and 246 MRLs. These are the casualties: soldiers 11%, guns 12%, and tanks 17%. The 70th Army is in a very bad condition, 60th and 65th Army are weakened. Most armies get enough supply, although it is hard to get enough for the 2nd Tank Army. There are not enough capacities to bring replacements for the casualties to the front.
1st Ukrainian Front started with 626,000 soldiers, 8,700 guns, 1,660 tanks, 42 SPG and 272 MRLs. It lost 5% of the soldiers, 2% of the guns, and 19% of the tanks. 38th and 40th Army are weakened, 1st Tank Army is currently supporting Belarusian, and 69th Army is supporting the 2nd Ukrainian. Supply is tight, especially shells for the artillery near Kiev. We had to decrease the bombardment.

2nd Ukrainian Front started with 573,000 soldiers, 8,500 guns, 1,513 tanks, 126 SPG and 92 MRLs. Casualties are: 8% soldiers, 8% guns, 12 % tanks, 13% SPG and 19 % MRLs. It is very hard to supply the 5th Guard and the 5th Tank Guard. Trucks can only drive at night. Otherwise the German fighters shoot them.
The Air Armies had 2,400 planes, when the campaign started. They have lost 30% during the fighting. The actual combat strength is only 800 planes. Air Armies could use a break of a day or two. And they need replacements.
Zhukov thinks about the situation. The own operations are going well. It seems like Vatutin will soon reach Kiev while Konev is already in the rear of the Germans. Only Rokossovsky has problems reaching his goals. But if everything goes right Kiev will be Russian again soon.

The Germans finally put their cards on the table. Their tank operations coming from Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy hit the Russian flanks. After some troubles the situation in the north is under control again. 1st Tank Army managed to stop the Germans there. In the south the situation is still cloudy.

The SS Corps managed to break Konev’s lines. If they turn west they could cut off the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank Army. If they advance further north they could try to reach the German forces coming from the north. If they succeed this would stop the operations against Kiev.

Now Zhukov has to choose one of these options:

Go on. Let the 5th Guard Army and the 5th Tank Army finish the surrounding. They will turn north to cut off the roads and rails west of Kiev, then advance further to reach the Dnjepr and combine the Armies of Belarusian. 1st Ukrainian will go on attacking Kiev. The 69th Army will attack the flank of the SS Corps and secure the southern flank.
We have to find a balance between offensive and defensive. Let the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank cut off the supply lines west of Kiev. Let the 60th hold their position while the 2nd goes back behind the River Densa. So it can either help against the 47th Corp or support the frontal attack against Kiev. Give the 6th Guard, the 7th Guard and the 69th Army order to attack the SS Corp.
We have to be defensive until the German counter strike is stopped. We have to get more supply and get reinforcements to the armies before we start to attack again. So let the 5th Guard stop and the 5th Guard Tank Army go back to the left bank. Let the 6th Guard Army and the 7th Guard army entrench. Let the 69th stay were it is in case that there are more German attacks from the south. Call back the 60th Army and the 2nd Tank Army. We need them on the left bank of the Desna.

When Zhukov finally reaches Moscow all the bells are ringing: Malinowski liberated Charkow.

Kraxis

01-02-2006, 15:52

There can be little doubt that Stalin would never agree to 3. He would rather risk a lot of cut-off troops, even good ones, than halt a good offensive. Zhukov on the other hand is as always keen on his men's situation, so he would like to blunt to the German attacks by soaking up their strength.

Obviously they would have to agree on #2.

discovery1

01-02-2006, 16:11

1) Hoth will be caught off balance by an attack on his flanks. Thus I think the 69th should be enough.

And what are 'assault tanks'? Assault guns?

Kagemusha

01-02-2006, 18:12

I agree with Kraxis.Option 2).The 69th Army cant stop the SS Corps alone.If we destroy it then the Germans cant stop us.

Franconicus

01-03-2006, 08:23

Kraxis:

I am not sure about this statement:
There can be little doubt that Stalin would never agree to 3.Stalin had to learn the lesson in 1941 and 1942. Unlike Hitler he rarely interfered in tactical things. He trusted Zhukov. Of course he would have urged him to advance, but I doubt that he would have insisted. Look at Stalingrad, where the Soviets waited a long time to start their counter strike. Amazing how patient Stalin was!

Discovery1:

69th Army is the weakest one. It seems like it did not get any reinforcements after the spring war. Konev was crazy that Vatutin did send him his poorest army with 60,000 soldiers and 890 guns. No tanks! So he had to fill it with troops of his own front reserve: 30,000 men, 140 guns, 100 tanks and 15 SPG.

4th Tank Army (Hoth) has more than 1,000 tanks. The SS Corps (Hausser) alone has some 500 tanks (including 36 Tigers) and 100 assault tanks. 48th Tank Corps (von Choltitz) is even stronger – and they have Panthers.

And what are 'assault tanks'? Assault guns?
I think they are. This is the story as far as I understood: The German (Guderian’s) tank strategy did not want to use the tanks to support the infantry. Tanks should attack only after the break through and then operate in the rear. Infantry should do the break through and then attack fortified positions. After the first experience Manstein proposed to develop an armored gun to support the infantry. That could also help the infantry division, which had to follow the tanks. Their standard artillery was too vulnerable and to slow to support the tank divisions. These assault tanks had no turret, there main armor was at the front side – so they were cheaper.

In Russia the Germans needed more tanks to stop the Russians and so the assault guns often were used to stop the Russian tanks. Some models were called Jagdpanzer (tank destroyer) or assault tanks.

And I think the Soviet SPG (self propelled guns) were similar.

King Kurt

01-03-2006, 10:38

Happy New Year everybody!

i think that I agree with Kraxis - the Soviets should keep up the pressure, but fend off the counterattacks. Also we must urge Malinowski to press on as we must put pressure on that suthern flank.:stupido:

Franconicus

01-03-2006, 12:56

STALIN’S PLAN
On the way to Kremlin Zhukov gives his orders. The SS Corps has to be blasted. This is the most important thing to do at the moment. Once it is gone nothing will be able to stop the Soviet advance. All fronts have to concentrate on that. The air armies will focus on the SS troops, too.
Zhukov also makes a decision concerning the paratroopers. They will touch ground west of Kiev, block the road and rail and wait for the 5th Guard Army to quarry them out. Although they are not ready for combat the operation has to take place this night.
At the Kremlin Stalin calls you in immediately: “Ah, Tovarish Zhukov! Welcome back! Did you hear the news? Charkow is liberated, Bryansk is liberated and Kiev will be free within a few days. This is great. We will scare the Fascists off. You did a great job! Now it is time to think of the next steps to liberate mother Russia!
Only Petrow did a bad job. He let the German 17th Army escape to Crimea. Well, I made a plan together with Timoshenko to give him a chance to make amends: North Caucasus Front will make an amphibian operation to take Odessa.”
Stalin looks at Zhukov’s reactions.
“Er, this sounds very interesting! But are we strong enough?”
“We will be! We start with the preparations immediately. Petrow is already collecting ships. The Black Sea Fleet will support him. He will get Marines. We will send as much tanks and planes as possible. You do not need them to take Kiev. The air forces will start to attack Crimea in the next days. We will pretend that we are planning an operation against Crimea. The Germans will concentrate their troops there.
As soon as you take Kiev (or at least cut them off) let Konev advance as soon as possible to Odessa. At the same time 3rd and 4th Ukrainian will advance to Saporischja and Cerson. Then Petrow will take Odessa and the Germans are cut off!”
Stalin is very enthusiastic. It is hard for Zhukov to share it: “Don’t we need more time for preparations?”
“No! Thanks to your outstanding success we do not expect much resistance. I will teach the British and their American friends that it does not take several years to prepare an amphibious operation.”
At this moment the door opens and Stalin’s secretary enters: “News from Italy. Mussolini resigns and goes into exile in Switzerland. Marshal Badoglio forms a new government.”
“Really? Even more good news! The Fascistic block falls to pieces!”
The news gives Zhukov time to think about Stalin’s plan. Maybe Stalin is a bit too optimistic about the Kiev operations. From Zhukov’s point of view the battle is not won, yet.

Tell Stalin that the operation at Kiev is in a critical phase. You need all the support you can get; your armies need replacements for planes and tanks. Maybe Stalin will be angry then, maybe he will refuse and intervene more. But you have to give it a try.
Agree with Stalin. The idea is not bad. The battle of Kiev is over anyway before you get your reinforcements to the front. If Stalin is busy playing at the sea he won’t care about your business.

Kagemusha

01-03-2006, 13:11

number 1) Though i dont think that Stalin listens.:no: If Stalin thinks that the Battle of Kiev is over.I think he is very wrong.:shame:

Kraxis

01-03-2006, 14:22

King Kurt

01-03-2006, 17:53

1 for me as well. The Black Sea operation sounds full of pitfalls and one to steer clear of. Kiev is the jewel in the crown, the Crimera a sideshow - risk unle joe's wrath and press on to Kiev. We also have the paratroopers to think of - we don't want it to be a bridgeski too far. Talking of paratroopers, weren't the russian airbourne used in support of a big operation in 43. I used to have a boardgame called Kanev which depicted it.~:cheers:

Franconicus

01-04-2006, 07:40

K.K.
I think there was an airborne operation when the Russians crossed the Dnjepr. The paras were slaughters but the army won time to cross the river. I think there were amphibious operations in the south (Kertsch).

Regarding Malinowski: Do not expect too much. You cannot compare his front with one of our. In the preparation of Zitadelle the Soviets focused everything at Kursk - just like the Germans did. So the decition will be made with these troops.

Franconicus

01-04-2006, 14:16

ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE

Zhukov turns to Stalin: “We should not do it, not now. Not until we really won the battle of Kiev.”
Stalin is irritated: “But I thought the Germans are already beaten.”
Zhukov: “Not at all. During the last weeks we made good progress – because the Germans let us. But now the fight has begun. The Germans defend every inch of Kiev. Their tank formations are currently attacking our flanks. We managed to stop them in the north. But yesterday German SS units started a new attack on our southern flank and broke through. We must stop them or the battle will be lost. So I think it is time to concentrate on Kiev and send all our reserves there. Once we have Kiev, the rest will follow.”
Stalin has lost all his enthusiasm: “Er, alright! Tell Timoshenko what you need! You get everything you want, but beat the Germans and give me back Kiev. We must have a victory. I rely on you!”

Stalin turns around and leaves. When Zhukov passes the antechamber he sees Timoshenko. He reports him the result of his meeting with Stalin and asks him to send him as much help as possible: “The Kiev Fronts need planes at once. And supply. Try to get as much as possible. We also could need some new armies to exchange the exhausted ones.”
Timoshenko promises to do his best: “Zhukov, I just want to go to Stalin to tell him the news. Maybe you know that Mussolini resigned yesterday. Today there is news about riots in Hungary. Workers and soldiers demonstrate at Budapest. Maybe the war is over soon.”
“Let’s hope for the best!” Although it is late at night Zhukov hurries back to the airport. He feels that something is going on at the front and he needs to be there.

Zhukov goes directly to Konev’s HQ. Konev is not there. He is at the 69th Army to organize the counter strike. Unfortunately the 69th is still hundred kilometres east of the operational area. It will take the night to get them fully operational. Then it will march west and gather all other troops that are on their way. Konev also sends replacements to the 1st Army. Both will be ready to attack on August 15th.

Zhukov receives the first message of the airborne troops. They started with some delay. Some transport planes did not take off because of technical problems. On their way to the operational area they had to bypass the AAA ring around Kiev. Unfortunately they impinged on some German night fighters. Although they could escape the formation broke apart. Some planes even flew over the German AA positions and were shot. The rest landed but the squad was dispersed. An officer managed to gather 300 men and to block the main road to Kiev. The Germans are obviously taken by surprise. There is no resistance so far. The paratroops managed to destroy a German convoy and have some POWs.

Zhukov’s sends a radio message to the 5th Guard. Although it is night and it is risky to operate in the rear of the Germans they are ordered to advance as fast as possible.

Soon the day breaks, it is August 14th. Zhukov wonders what the day will bring.

9:00 - Germans attack the paratroops with light alert forces. They are supported FW190 planes. The paratroops have to retreat to a better position. 5th Guard Army is still 15 km away.

The 5th Guard Tank Army starts the attack to enlarge the bridgehead and to get connection to the 5th Guard again.

11:00 The 5th Guard reaches the position of the paratroops. There are 600
paras holding the line. The rest is lost or missed. The 5th Guard Army pushes the Germans back to the road. The next goal is the railroad.

The 5th Guard Tank’s attack is successful. It can push back the German 13th Corps to Kiev and the 52nd towards Tscherkassy. It also gets connection to the 5th Guard Army. Both Guards are attacked by Ju 87 of the St.G. 2 and by FW 190 and Hs 123 of the Sch.G. 1. Both suffer high casualties.

11:30 The 7th Guard Army attacks the SS Corps. Both sides are supported by tactical bombers and fighters. The 7th Guard Army can stop the Germans for 2 hours. Then it has to march north to unite with the 6th Guard Army. German Luftwaffe is slowly getting the upper hand.

12:00 Cry for help from the east side of the Dnjepr. German Tigers of the 48th Corps are in the rear of the 5th Guard Tank Army. This one cannot help because it is engaged on the other side of the river. The German tanks attack is massive with several hundred of tanks and it hits the supply of the 5th Guard and 5th Guard tank which is waiting there to cross the river. Only a couple of AA guns try to stop the Germans. It is a massacre.

12:00 Another cry for help. Tigers north of Poltawa! A massive attack of German forces hits the 3rd Army. They cannot hold the line. The German tanks, 300 or more, break through and advance north.
Tigers all along the southern flank! Zhukov calls Vatutin. The front at Kiev is quiet. Vatutin stopped the attack to refill his armies and to bring supply. 6th Guard Army and 7th Guard Army are in combat with the SS Corps.

Another call gives the update from Rokossovsky. The Belarusian Front is quiet. The 2nd Tank Army has crossed the river. Rokossovski uses the break to refill his armies with troops of his front reserve. All armies except the 70th Army will have almost their nominal strength by tomorrow. It will take a couple of days to reorganize the 70th. The German 47th Corps is quiet, but they get constantly new tanks.

15:00 5th Guard Army has reached and blocked the railroad to Kiev. The city is cut off from its western connections. The Army demolishes several supply and communication facilities of the German 2nd Army. They catch 300 German soldiers plus one Romanian General. 5th Guard Army cables that it is low on fuel.

15:30 Call from Timoshenko. 1st Guard Tank Army and 20th Tank Army are on the way. They will arrive in a week. Also some squadrons of Iljuschin 2 and Jag and Mig fighters will transfer from Moscow and from North Caucasus Front. The first units will be ready within two days.
16:00 After heavy combat the 6th and 7th Guard Armies have to retreat. The SS Corps has more and better tanks and they are supported by German planes.

19:00 Tigers at the flank of the 38th Army. Still it is only an advanced group and they turn around when the Soviet artillery sends its greetings.
21:00 At the southern section the Soviet soldiers are happy when night falls. During night messages of casualties arrive at the HQs. It has been a hard day for the Soviets. But Zhukov knows that there is no time to complain. He has to make a plan to stand the German attack and start to regroup his armies this night.

The Germans have three main lines of attack. First, coming from Tscherkassy along the east bank of the Dnjepr to Kiew, the 48th Tank Corps. Second, coming from Tscherkassy, too, the SS Corps, with direction to Tschernihiw to unite with the 47th Tank Corps. Third, the 3rd Tank Corps north of Poltawa advancing northwards. Additionally the 47th seems to be reinforced and ready to strike again. And during the night the 5th Guard Army notifies the sound of track vehicles in the north of its position.

REPORT OF THE OKW:
The OKW discloses: After the hard defence of the last week the German army started the operation Cerberus, a combined attack of German tank corps against the northern and southern flanks of the Soviets. All assault groups managed to break into the positions of the Soviets. They were supported by big formations of the air force. The Soviets lost a lot of tanks and soldiers and are retreating all along their southern front. Several Soviet formations are cut off.

Radio Beromünster (Switzerland) sends an interview with German Minister Amelunxen. He says that Fascism caused a lot of pain and misery all over Europe. He expresses his hope to overcome this evil ideology. If all peace loving and democratic forces in Europe and America cooperate Fascism will soon be gone and Europe will become the home of free and sovereign nations again.
https://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie70lg.jpg

This time you are completely free to decide what is best for the Russians.

Have a nice evening ~:cheers:

discovery1

01-04-2006, 16:43

How many Russian's are on the West side of the Dnieper, apparently cuttoff?
If alot, bail them out.

Franconicus

01-05-2006, 08:49

Here are the numbers as Zhukov receives them in his HQ:

Zhadov’s 5th Guard Army’s combat strength is 70,000 soldiers, 1450 guns, 90 tanks, 20 SPG, 72 MLRs. It has been in combat since August 11th. The men were under constant artillery and air bombardment. So they are a bit tired. But – they are Guard! They have also 300 POWs. Ammo is low, but still sufficient for a couple of days. Fuel is a problem.
The 5th Guard Tank Army (Rotmistrov) has 37,000 soldiers, 100 guns and 608 tanks. It also lost a good part of its men and guns due to air raids and artillery, but its tank force is intact. So the two armies are a very strong formation.
North of the SS Corps you have the 6th and 7th Guard Army. They have 149,000 soldiers, 2,970 guns, 240 tanks, 38 SPG and 137 MRLs.
East of the SS Corps there is the 69th ((82,000 men, 1030 guns, 100 tanks and 15 SPG ) and the 1st Army (66000, 800 guns, 45 tanks and 10 SPG).

In front of Kiev there are the 38th (60,000, 1170 guns, 150 tanks, 0 SPG, 32 MRL) and the 40th Army (75,000, 1600 guns, 233 tanks). Moskalenkov is the commander of both armies. They have the 48th Tank Corps at their left flank and the SS Corps in the rear.
You also have two other strong formations in the north:
The 1st Tank Army (Katukov) has 75,000 soldiers, 1600 guns, and 233 tanks
The 2nd Tank Army (Rodin) has 33,000 soldiers, 340 guns and 441 tanks.
Both are refilled and ready for combat.

Finally there is the 60th Army (Chernyakhovski) located north of Kiev between Desna and Dnjepr. Its combat strength is 92,000, 1185 guns, 70 tanks. They have only little supply and are a bit demoralized.

Do you need any other details?

We need a good plan. All units in the southern section are struggling and have German tanks at their flanks or rears. The armies at Kievs can be flanked too. There is also the threat that the Germans cut off all three fronts.

So what do you suggest? The plan must be fixed and communicated until next morning. (The sooner the better. Maybe you want to regroup during night):sweatdrop:

King Kurt

01-05-2006, 17:13

Here is my thoughts:
1 - Press on to Kiev - it must be taken, but maybe more from the north
2- Our southernmost forces should press on to Tscherkassy - 2 SS is the danger, but it is very exposed.
3- Concentrate all our air assets on attacking 2 SS.
Cautious aggression is what is needed - we must not loose our nerve.:sweatdrop:

discovery1

01-05-2006, 21:52

I guess the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies are the ones trapped on the west side?

Break them out.

Kagemusha

01-05-2006, 23:01

To be honest.I think we are screwed. 6th and 7th Guards army couldnt stop the SS corps.I have to gongratulate the man who made this plan.This is how i think this will turn out.First we have no serios reserves, our strongest unit the 5th Guards tank army(Romistrov) and his 600 tanks are South to Kiev and its tied up there on both sides of the bloody river.I think its more then possible that the 48th German tank corps will roll over the 38th and 40th army,and hits Romistrov on the left flank and rear.Then we have the SS corps.We can hit it with 6th & 7th from the North and 69 th army from the east.But i dont simply think that the 100 tanks of the 69th will help 6th and 7th guards much to destroy the SS corps.They tryed it already without succes.And then there is the 3th German tank corps in North of Pultava,ready to hit our troops in the rear.Last we have the 47th German tank corps in the north.Waiting for its options.If our strong formations in the North 1st and 2nd tank army are ordered to attack elsewhere and not tie it up.Following things can happen: first if we deploy the 1st to attack the SS corps it can hit it on the rear.If we use the 2nd on same purpose it can hit the 5th guard army on the right flank and in the rear.
So what to do...:sweatdrop:
I think that if we wont to save ourselves from a absolute catastrophy.We halt the assault and dig in for defense.Pull of the 5th guard army and 5th guards tank army from both sides of Kiev and pull them inside your armies as reserve.the 2nd Tank army can then withdraw so it has contact on the 1st tank army.Order 38th and 40th army to pull out to the north so if the German 48th tank army follows the 2nd tank army can stop it.1st tank army should remain on its place and stop the attempts of the 47th german tank corps.6th and 7th guards armies should dig in and fight even for the last man to wear out the SS corps.Move the 69th army so it can slow down the 3th German tank corps if it breaks out near Pultava we just have to throw everything we can to stop the Germans.And pray that the reinforcements come in soon.~:mecry:

Kraxis

01-07-2006, 01:21

I'm much with Kage here... The situation seems royally screwed, despite our relatively cautious behaviour to the German movements.

We shouldn't do a Hitler/Stalin and rage that the troops should just press on or similar. I think we have to assume the battle is lost and do damage control right away.
Our northern shoulder seems stronger, while the southern shoulder is reeling.

If we do nothing to halt the attacks in the south we will lose all. The northern attack seems blunted and will not reappear again for some time. Thus we must shift every available tank, gun and plane to the south. Yes, that involves stripping the tanks of the armies on the northern shoulder.

If the southern attack can thus be blunted enough, it might falter, or at least buy us time to pull out. The nothern attack will come, but as with Kurks it will eventually fail if we can halt the southern one first. Thus we can turn the tanks back again.

Obviously the two 5th Guards armies need to do a turn about.
Leave their infantry in place, pin the German forces there, as well as putting the German garrison of Kiev under pressure. But send the tanks back. It does not matter that this will take some time, in fact it might be good as the Germans might advance too far themselves. So when the tanks are ready they will slice into the rear of the SS formations, while their tanks are are not readily available to repel the attack.

Could this end in victory for us? Hardly. Will there be immense losses? You bet. But we have little choice here. We must sacrifice men and materiel for time to even preserve a semblance of a coherent frontline.

discovery1

01-07-2006, 02:18

Uh, aren't the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies traped on the wrong side of the Dnieper?

Kraxis

01-07-2006, 02:26

Uh, aren't the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies traped on the wrong side of the Dnieper?
Not wholly, besides they still have the bridges. Sure it will be both problematic and costly to move the tanks back, and it will give off the plan, but the Germans will thus be forced to react to it. Either slow down and move some advancing troops to oppose them, or move other troops up (which they don't seem to have). Neither is a good choice for them in the long run.

The mere presence of strong flanking formations of armour would be scary, and could save the Fronts from complete failure.

Kagemusha

01-07-2006, 02:51

I think Kraxis idea of moving the armor back is good.What im worried about is that do we have time to do that.This Monster is attacking on the left side of the SS Corps, to the North: XXXXVIII Tank Corp, 80,000, 569 tanks, 68 AT. It has almost the same amount of armour then the SS corps.Also the river is protecting its left flank and on its right is the SS Corps.So it will be pushing with full steam straigth towards us.:sweatdrop:
Edit: Infact the 48th tank corps has more armor then the SS Corps.

Kraxis

01-09-2006, 02:30

Well they are not SS, not nearly as Elite. But the truth is that our tanks are simply in the wrong place and we need them in the right place right away.

As it is we can't stop the Germans from winning a victory. Meaning Kiev is lost currently. But we can perhaps save the Fronts and perhaps even retain most of the land we have regained. And that is not bad in itself as there are many thousands of partisans ready to join up in the army right away, and further resources of men to be called up later, not ot mention the amount of farmland regained. This is no small matter when the western Allies so 'nobly' sacrifices food and materiel for Russia (and makes sure to mention it whenever comrade Stalin mentions the dreaded 'second front'), and Russian actually needs it.

Kagemusha

01-09-2006, 02:37

Agreed.I cant wait what the Krauts will do next.It has been a loooong night to wait their next move.~;)

Franconicus

01-09-2006, 08:10

I do not agree. SS was elite, but more in a political sense. Yes, they had better weapons and fought until they were dead, but the casualties were always so high that they were not able to stand for longer longer campaigns. And most of the soldiers had not much experience and were not well trained (in a military sense).

The XXXVIII has the Panzergreadierdivision "Großdeutschland" which was the very best unit of the Wehrmacht, real elite. It had the same amount of Tiger as a SS Division (14). And they had Tank Detachments 51 (104 Panther) and 52 (100 Panther). I know you are all waiting for the wildcats to roar!

Franconicus

01-09-2006, 09:59

ON A KNIFE’S EDGE
Continuously the phone rings and the commanders of the armies give updates or ask for new orders. Zhukov knows that he has to make a decision that could decide the battle and that will influence the whole war. His commanders and their soldiers rely on him. Well, that is the fate of a General. However, he still hesitates, hoping that someone would bring news that makes the decision easier.
In fact the Generals Nikolai Bulganin and Alexandr Vassilevski appear at your HQ. They were sent from Stalin to ‘support’ Zhukov. Both ask for an update. Bulganin reports about the efforts of Timoshenko. 1st Guard Tank Army and 20th Tank Army are on the way. They will arrive in a week. Also some squadrons of Iljuschin 2 and Jag and Mig fighters will transfer from Moscow and from North Caucasus Front. The first units will be ready within two days. Timoshenko will also send planes to help fill the gaps of the squadrons that are already in combat. And the 35 Guard Reserve Army will be converted and increased to a regular Guard Army.
Bulganin proposes to retreat to the line Tscherkassy – Tschernihiw and to place the two tank armies behind. Then it should be possible to hold the line until the reinforcements arrive. The two 5ths could get lost although. You could either order them to stay and keep the Fascists busy or order them to fight their way back. You could form a strong reserve with the 1st Guard Tank Army, the 20th Tank Army, the 35th Guard Army and the reorganized 70th Army. With this force you could try to take Kiev again. The air armies could attack Kempf and slow him down.
Vassilevski disagrees. The German tanks would massacre the armies while they regroup. First of all the German Tank Corps have to be neutralized. So he proposes to let the 2nd Tank Army attack the 48th Corps and the 1st Tank Army attack the SS Corps. All other armies and the air force should support the attack. Once the German Corps are eliminated the Tank Armies could turn north again. 5th Guard should stand but send its tanks to the 5th Guard Tank Army. This one should try to cross the river and attack the 48th from behind.
Zhukov wonders if it is really necessary to give up attacking Kiev. The town is cut off from three sides. A concentric attack (5th Guard from the west, 5th Guard Tank from the south, 38 and 40 from the east and 60 from the north) supported by the air armies could make it. Having the town with its bridges would change the situation completely. 6th and 7th Guard could try to slow the SS Corps, 1 and 69 could attack its flank. 2nd Tank marches southeast to attack the SS too. If this plan succeeds both Guard Armies could be saved and the battle would result in a victory.
While the three Generals are still discussing Konev appears. He is tired and excited. He was on a recon plane to look for the 5th Guard Army: ‘We could not get on the other side of the Dnjepr. German planes everywhere. Fritz has also occupied the eastern bank of the river, so the two Guard armies are cut off. Thy have tanks, ATG and lot of FLAK there. We have no direct contact to the 5th Guard. But we can communicate via 5th Guard Tank Army.”
You tell Konev about the proposal you discussed before. He does not agree: “You have no conception! This battle is lost only if we give up. Our armies are still intact. Kiev is in our hands. We have to attack instead of retreat.”
Zhukov: “Konev, don’t you see the German tank corps? They can destroy our complete army.”
Konev: “Well, to be honest, it has been a long time since German tanks made me cry. What is up with you? Let the 5th Guard march north east to get contact with the 60th. Let the 5th Guard Tank and the 69th take Tscherkassy. Then the surrounding of Kiev is complete and the SS Corps and the 48th Corps are cut off. Let the 38th, 6th Guard, 7th Guard, and the 1st attack the German Tank Corps. Call the 2nd Tank Army too. Let the air force give full support against the SS and the 48th. Let’s care about Kempf afterwards. If you are overcautious let the 5th Guard entrench were they are.”
Another person enters the room, the commander of the air armies. He needs new orders for the next day.
So Zhukov has to decide right now.

Follow Bulganin and retreat to the Tscherkassy – Tschernihiw line.
Follow Vassilevski and attack the German Corps.
Make a concentric operation to occupy Kiev.
Follow Konev and encircle Kiev and cut off the German tank army.
a)Let the 5th Guard and the 60th Army attack
b)Let the 5th Guard entrench.

Kagemusha

01-09-2006, 12:13

Option 1. We can either take a slap on the cheek and loose up to 4 armies.Or in worst case scenario be annihalated as a front.If the germans are already behind The 5th guards tank army.Should we assume that 38th and 40th armies have been destroyed already?In that case the battle of Kiev is indeed lost.

Franconicus

01-09-2006, 14:57

Kagemusha

01-09-2006, 15:39

:book: The two 5th Guards crossed the river south of Kiev. The 38th and 40th are further north close at Kiev. The German 48th managed to block the ponton bridges of the Guards, so they are trapped. The advanced platoons of the 48th already met the 38th Army positions.

In that case the both 5th Guards should be ordered to leave some troops in their positions to fool the Germans that they are still in their position and hit Kiev with all out assault.I dont believe that Germans would suspect that kind of assault at this point.Meanwhile on the East bank of the river order 38th and 40th to dig in for defence ready to defend against attacks of the 48th German tank corps.Also 40th army could carry out a false attack before the assault against Kiev before of the both 5th hit Kiev all out.If we succeed in this we would first accuire our mission target Kiev.And also chance the position of both 5th guards from encircled troops to spearhead of our defence.Also there are many bridges in Kiev that we can use to move the tanks of the 5th guards tank army to help our other armies. I know this is gamble,but i think its better to take the risk then to stay in place and rot there.

Franconicus

01-09-2006, 15:49

So it is 3) now?

P.S.: I made a mistake with the options. I changed that!

Kagemusha

01-09-2006, 16:04

Franconicus

01-09-2006, 17:11

Well its tricky.:sweatdrop: I dont like the part in 3) That we should release the 1st tank army from the North to engage the SS corps.That way will soon find the German 47th tank corps in the middle of our front.Also we cant just take both 38th and 40th armies and attack Kiev.The German 48th tank corps follows us and hits us in the rear.I really dont like the situation at all.~:(
Edit :Also what about the 3rd German tank corps What is it doing and what are we going to do to it?
A bit confusing! This is plan 3):
A concentric attack (5th Guard from the west, 5th Guard Tank from the south, 38 and 40 from the east and 60 from the north) supported by the air armies could make it. Having the town with its bridges would change the situation completely. 6th and 7th Guard could try to slow the SS Corps, 1 and 69 could attack its flank. 2nd Tank marches southeast to attack the SS too. If this plan succeeds both Guard Armies could be saved and the battle would result in a victory.
It is 1st Army (not 1st Tank Army) that attacks the SS along with the 69th. So the 1st Tank Army keeps in place(in this plan). It is the 2nd Tank Army that marches from north to south.
Of cause it is a bit gambling. Soviets have to take the town before the Germans can react

discovery1

01-09-2006, 21:04

3) throw everything at Kiev.

King Kurt

01-10-2006, 14:29

I plump for 3 as well. We have to get back the initative and if we take Kiev, we do that. Can I also do a big told you so about the southern flank - I have been bothered about that for ages.~:cheers:

Franconicus

01-10-2006, 14:32

:dizzy2:
What did you propose to secure this flank?

Kagemusha

01-10-2006, 16:36

Allright i also go with the option 3.Alltough this can be the end of our front. But i urge you to leave the 2nd tank army in its place and drop the attack against SS corps.If we hit the SS corps with the 69th and the 1st army from the east,the 3rd German tank corps will hit those troops in the rear.Also we should leave the 40th army to slow down the 48th German tank army.:bow:

Franconicus

01-10-2006, 16:51

Kagemusha

01-10-2006, 17:16

So you suggest to leave the 1st Tank, 2nd Tank, the 40th, the 69th and the 1st army where they are and launch the attack against Kiev with the two 5th Guards, the 60th and the 38th, don't you? The 6th Guard and 7th Guard entrench and try to hold the SS?
What do you intend to do with the German 3rd and 48th Corps? What is the main target for your air force?

Do the others agree?

Yes.Attack Kiev With both 5th guards,60th and 38th.Use 40th to slow down German 48th corps and also leave a few of the 5th Guards tank army behind.So the 48th may think that the 5th remains in its place and creates a threat to its flank.Dig in 6th and 7th guards to hold SS corp.And entrech the 1st army on its flank to posses a threat there.Move 69th to the North east to counter if the 3th German tank corps attacks there.Concentrate your Air power to attack the 3th,SS and 48th corps.So it slows them down.

Franconicus

01-10-2006, 17:21

Well, that is finally a plan. :2thumbsup: No air raids against Kiev?

Let's give the others time until tomorrow to make comments.

Kagemusha

01-10-2006, 17:29

Ok. I think that if we concentrate our Airpower to Attack elsewhere it could give the Germans in Kiev a false feeling of security and the suprise of our Assault could be more devastating.Lets see what the others think of this.~:)

Kraxis

01-11-2006, 03:28

Well the airforces should most certainly not be used against Kiev.
The Germans have most likely amassed lots and lots of AA in the city and along the perimiter (and I fear they have quite a few 88s), that is indicated by the strong AA in the rear of the 5ths. Besides, tactically bombing in cities is not very good. It causes little damage, and creates a lot of easily defended ruins, exactly where you don't want them.

No blast the spearheads to bits. This is afterall a game of time, and we need to make sure the Germans lose that game. Armies on the move, especially armoured formations, are fairly easy targets from the air, and they lack the defensive strength of static AA like the 88s. Of course chances are that they have their own aircover, but we will soon get plenty of reinforcements in the air. I doubt the Germans can keep up for much longer.

Franconicus

01-11-2006, 12:21

ASSAULT OF KIEV

It is 23:00 when Zhukov ends the discussion: “We attack Kiev and we have to take the bridges within 48 hours. We can score it if we take the Germans by surprise.”
As soon as the decision is made Zhukov sends orders to the armies:
60th Army – attack Kiev
38th Army – attack Kiev
5th Guard Army – attack Kiev but leave a strong rearguard where you are now
5th Guard Tank Army – attack Kiev but leave a rearguard at the Dnjepr to pretend the Army is still there
40th Army – cover the flank of the 38th Army
6th and 7th Guard Army – entrench and repel any attack from the SS Corps
69th Army – march northeast as fast as possible to fight the 3rd Corps
Air Armies – Attack the SS Corps, the 3rd and the 48th Corps
Midnight – to take the Germans by surprise the 5th Guard Army marches at night. It wants to reach the outskirts of Kiev in the morning. The rearguard with 20,000 soldiers and 700 guns stays under the commander Victor Leonov. While they have strong AAA the remaining fuel is taken by the assault force.
Just when General Zhadov decamps German night bombers attack. After this raid German artillery north of the position opens fire. Task Force Leonov replies. Zhadov takes advantage of the noise and starts his march towards Kiev.
At the same time the 60th tries to march south unseen. They want to reach their area of operation before break of day too. Meanwhile the 38th started to bombard the German position east of Kiev. They want to distract Fritz from what is going on at his rear.
The 69th Army makes a forced night march to come closer to the German 3rd Corps. However, the distance is 140 km, so it is unlikely that they will meet before afternoon.
The 6th and 7th Guard Armies register artillery fire from the SS Corps. They reply with their superior artillery.
Zhukov also receives a new message from Timoshenko. It is a detailed report about the promised reinforcements:
- 1st GdTk Corps: 13,000 men and 200tanks
- 20th Tk Corps: 12,000 men and 180 tanks
- 3rd GdTk Army 37.000 men, 492 guns, 699 tanks and 32 SPG
Additionally Timoshenko can send you 500,000 soldiers, 2,000 tanks and 5,000 guns from training camps to refit your units. He asks you where you want to have them. You get also 2,000 planes, from which 400 will come during the next day. This is all he can do to help Zhukov and he should not expect to get more.
When day breaks Zhukov also receives a note from intelligence. The Germans get reinforcements too: 700 planes, some 1,000 tanks and 100,000 men. Some of the planes are already ready for combat; the rest will arrive during the next couple of days.

ION ANTONESCU

Although the 2nd Battle of Kiev has reached the critical phase Manstein is forced to take a trip to Bucharest
Together with Ameluxen and Adenauer you visit Marshall Antonescu. The Romanian leader is very concerned about the political and military situation.
Antonescu: “Gentlemen, I wonder what is going on in my neighbour countries. Hitler is dead, murdered by officers of his own party. Mussolini resigned and moved to Switzerland. There are strikes and riots at Budapest. I ask you: What are the activities of the German government to keep the Axis intact and to avoid further riots?”
Ameluxen: “Marshall Antonescu, be sure that everything is under control. The new Italian government acts in close adjustment with us. Mussolini had lost control and had to be replaced. He is safe in Switzerland now. The uprising at Budapest was a bad surprise. Fortunately the 1st Tank Division was marching through Hungary. They were turned around and occupied the town. The situation is under control again.”
Antonescu: “And what about Germany? The SS is disbanded and there is a campaign against the NSDAP. So where is Germany going to?”
Ameluxen: “I think we all agree that we have to find a way to end this war. The Western Allies will never accept to negotiate with a German fascist government. So we have to disband all fascistic organisations. On the other hand we still have to protect our country and our allies against Bolshevism. So we need to have a strong government.”
Antonescu: “End this war? How do you think to manage this?”
Adenauer: “We need a military victory against the Soviets. Then we can make peace with them under our conditions. This would mean that Stalin has to guarantee the old frontiers of Romania as well as the German sphere of interest. This would mean that Bolshevism is banned in Central Europe. Then we can start to negotiate with the Americans.”
Antonescu: “Er, a military victory? Here is a report of my general’s. It says that the Axis’ troops lost a lot of ground, that the Soviets crossed the Dnjepr and almost encircled Kiev. The Romanian Corps suffered high casualties and is trapped at Kiev now.”
Manstein: “That is only half of the truth. The Russians advanced because we want them to. Two Guard armies crossed the Dnjepr – and are trapped themselves now. Our tank corps are currently attacking the Russian flanks. They broke through and soon we will cut off three Soviet fronts. So far everything went according plan. The Romanian Corps suffered casualties because it fought in the first line. And may I add, the Romanian fought very brave. It is only because of their success that we are in this excellent position now. But now it has finished its job. I will pull it behind Kiev as soon as possible. It can be refitted there and guard the Soviet POWs.
This is the main reason why I visit you today. We expect to have so many prisoners soon that we cannot handle them. Could we send some to Romania, maybe 100,000?”
Antonescu: “Yes, sure! When do you expect this victory?”
Manstein: “The Soviet troops will be battered within the next two weeks. It will take some time to break the final resistance and to collect everything. So the POW’s would arrive in September, I guess. We will loot a lot of equipment, too. Tanks, guns, trucks and so on. We could equip the Romanian divisions and transfer the corps into a tank corps after refitting. There is another thing we have to talk about. The Americans deploy heavy bombers at Northern Africa. They will try to attack the Romanian oil fields. We will increase their cover by sending additional flak units and fighters.”
Will the Romanian leader believe his German visitors?

Yes! He believes Manstein, who saved the Eastern Front before. And – Antonescu has no other option.
No! He will start secret negotiations with the British.
No! He will break the alliance at once, pull back the Romanian forces and then try to find an agreement with Stalin.

Kagemusha

01-11-2006, 12:43

Number 1) He has no choice but to trust on Germans.He knows that the British cant help him.If the Russians beat the Germans,its up to SU what happends to the Romania.I see that Soviets used my plan.I hope that poor old Kagemusha is not court marshalled if it fails.:hide:

King Kurt

01-11-2006, 14:43

Got to be 3 - let's put the cat amongst the pigeons!!
If I was Roumania, I would be suspicious. The Hungary experience sounds like a German puppet state. The Kiev situation sounds like a Russian victory, not a German one - would you believe somebody who says I have sacrificed your troops and hundreds of square miles of teritory to get the Russians where I want them. All I would see was that the Russians were a lot nearer than before. And then to casually say, oh by the way the Americans are are about to start bombing you. Time to call the boys back home and find out the Russian for peace talks - and if Manstein plays up - switch off the oil - burn the fields if necessary.~:cheers:

Kraxis

01-11-2006, 15:56

Unfortunately he hasn't got much choice.
While he might not believe Manstein, he will at the same time not believe the Germans have changed much. Thus an abandonment of the Axis will be payed for dearly, especially when the Russians are still some distance away.

Had the Russians been sitting near Odessa, then I bleieve choice 3 would be the most likely course of action. But currently he will grudgingly play along. Remember, he is himself a semi-fascist, and knows he will get little mercy from the Russians. He will try to save his own hide as well.

So while he might not believe Manstein he will hope, and he hopes dearly.

Choice 1!

discovery1

01-11-2006, 18:15

Choice 1. It's not like the Sovs are interested in peace anyway.

Franconicus

01-12-2006, 11:06

ANTE PORTAS

August 15th. At the crack of dawn the fighting starts again. Zhukov waits desperately for news from his armies. The 5th Guard Army’s attack hit the Romanian troops west of Kiev without any warning. The 5th Guard advances quickly and reaches the periphery before there is organized German resistance. On the way it captures 4,000 soldiers, mainly Romanians and Hungarians.
Task Force Leonov reports of artillery fire and air attacks. German tanks and infantry approach from north and west. At 11:00 the connection drops out.
The 5th Guard Tank Army starts the assault too. However, as the day breaks, there are German Stukas and they accompany the army the whole morning. Nevertheless the 5th Guard Tank manages to repress the 13th German Corps to the gates of Kiev. Then resistance is getting stiffer.
The 60th Army also starts to assault Kiev coming from the north. But as soon as the German realize this threat the 60th gets bombardment from three sides and has to entrench. At noon it has to repel an attack at its northern flank.
The 38th is still only using its artillery to worry the Germans. Its infantry get ready to assault the town in the afternoon. It is only 10 km east of the river. However, the area they have to cross is cut by several channels and seas and has strong fortifications.
All told the assault makes good progress. Now Zhukov needs news from the southern area.
The 6th and 7th Guard report that everything is quiet there. Then there is a cry for help from the 1st Army. It is attacked at its right flank by hundreds of German tanks – Tigers! Obviously the German SS Corps changed the direction of their offensive. 1st Army cannot hold the line. Its 50 tanks have no chance against the Tigers.
Zhukov orders all armies in this sector to do more recon. At 10:00 the air force arrives; 60 Iljuschins 2 and 40 fighters. Immediately 60 German interceptors appear and the fighting begins. Despite of the fighters and the stiff AA fire some Iljuschins manage to attack the German tanks. More planes from both sides join the fight and in the end there are 250 planes in a big dogfight.
Recon shows that the SS Corps regrouped over night too. While the SS division ‘Totenkopf’ is still in front of the two Guard armies ‘LSSAH’ and ‘Das Reich’ turned left.
69th Army marched all night long. It did not expect to meet an enemy, as the 3rd Corps ought to be 50 to 100 km further north. So it was badly surprised as it hit German tanks in the morning; the 3rd Corps had turned west and marched through the night too. Fortunately the Germans were not fully deployed too. General Kryuchenkin orders his tanks to attack the Germans. Although badly outnumbers they hold the fort until the ATG are in place. So the 69th manages to stop the Germans at the moment.
Zhukov’s HQ also receives a call from the 1st Tank Army at the northern sector. It is attacked by a big number of Tigers of the 47th Corps.
At 12:00 another call from the 40th Army. They are attacked by hundreds of German tanks, most of them Tigers, supported by ground attack planes. They call for air support. Zhukov calls the air control. The General there tells him that all planes are in action. But the German planes are everywhere. Today they gain control of the skies. Nevertheless the Soviet fighters and bombers are looking for their chance and keep on trying to break through the German screen.

15:00 Kiev Front
Still no news from Leonov. 5th Guard makes a reckless assault and occupies the first houses of Kiev. From now on there is street fighting. Germans defend every house. They block the roads with barricades and mines and fire out of the windows. Zhadov’s soldiers advance slowly as they have only few tanks. Casualties are high.
From the south the 5th Guard Tank penetrates the city. The 18th Tank Corps manages to occupy several blocks. It has enough tanks but not enough infantry to clear the barricades and occupy the houses. The German defenders fight the Soviet tanks with Elephants, 8,8 guns and hand-to-hand combat forces.
In the north the 60th Army is still pinned down.
38th Army started the assault. Germans hold the fort, casualties are high.

15:00 Northern Front:
The German tanks keep on attacking the 1st Tank Army, but it is still standing.

15:00 Southern Front:
Stiff fighting between the 40th Army and the German 48th Corps. The 40th has a strong tank force (more than 230) and a lot of artillery and ATG but the Germans have more and better tanks and are supported by the Luftwaffe. Although the Germans advance the 40th still holds the fort.
In the southeast the 1st Army has to evade the pressure of the SS divisions and is pushed southeast. When the 69th hears about the retreat of the first and knows that the SS Corps is in its rear it gives up its position and retreats too. At the same time the 2nd and 3rd Army are attacked by German infantry divisions too.
The SS Corps and the 3rd Corps are broken through. And 4 Soviet armies are cut off now. Zhukov has no other option, he orders the 6th and 7th Guard Army to attack the SS Corps.
Evening – Kiev Front
All four armies have reached the periphery or even penetrated the town. The defenders are cut off completely. The two guard armies report that they are short of ammo and fuel. Tomorrow morning they will start the decisive assault to get the needed bridges.
15:00 Northern Front:
The German tanks keep on attacking the 1st Tank Army, but it is still standing.

Evening – Southern Front:
40th Army cannot stand the pressure any longer and will retreat northwards during night.
The 6th and 7th Guard Army are slowly advancing against the SS Corps. Army Detachment Kempf attacks the trapped armies. They try to defend desperately but resistance is getting weaker.
When night falls fighting slows down. Zhukov receives a call from the commander of the air armies. Reinforcements arrived. 400 brand new planes are ready to interfere tomorrow.
While the assault of Kiev makes some progress Zhukov has to see his southern front fall apart. Risk is very high that the complete fronts get lost. He has to decide for tomorrow:

Keep on with the assault of Kiev. We must have the bridges tomorrow. Let the 6th and the 7th Guard attack the SS Corps and free the trapped armies. Order those armies to break out, too.
The battle is lost. Any further attack will only increase the danger to loose the entire fronts. So call back every army. The new defence line is Sumy – Charkov. The two tank armies have to be the rearguard. The 6th and 7th Guard are the first to retreat. They will occupy the new position and catch the other units. All others have to fight the way back. Air armies have to screen them and slow the Germans down.

https://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie8a4dc.jpg

https://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie83kf.jpg

P.S. Where do you want your reinf?

King Kurt

01-12-2006, 13:47

We can't stop now. How can we retreat to positions with the Germans amongst us. So it has to be 1. Take Kiev and the bridges. Throw all the air against the SS corps. Push towards the river between the SS corps and the 48th - attempt to cut them off. Also - where have all these Tigers come from? We, in the long term have more resources than the Germans. If we (as Zukov) hold Kiev, Stalin will do his damnest to ensure we hold it. We have 400 more planes tomorrow and more troops are on the way. It all depends how you look at it - from 1 point of view, the SS corps is in our rear - from another point of view, we nearly have it surrounded. Victory or the Gulag awaits - on to victory!!!

Kagemusha

01-12-2006, 14:31

Are there any figures on casulties on the German side?

Kraxis

01-12-2006, 15:10

In the words of Zhukov as he learned of the battle's progress...

*ahem*

"CRAP!!!!"

Now is the time for me to say "I told you so", even if it doesn't fit that well. We really should have pulled the 5ths' tanks across the river once more and attacked the SS forces. Rigth now they are presenting their rear to the position the tanks would have occupied. So either the tanks would have had a very good target to attack or else the Germans wouldn't have encircled the other forces that easily. Besides, tanks aren't that important in cities...

But now we have to look at the current situation. And I must say it looks like 2 year-old's painting, blurry, a mess and out of control.

There is little we can do other than 1. 2 would be too dangerous for the Red Army in general. To retreat while we could still fight, and leave some of the most carefully hoarded elite troops in the army, to the fate of prisoners. Especially now that they have begun to fight in Kiev, we can't leave a half-fought battle.

How this smells like Stalingrad in reverse. A thin attack onto a specific target that holds out against quite elite forces, which eventually gets cut off by attacks on it's long flanks.

Franconicus

01-12-2006, 15:57

Are there any figures on casulties on the German side?

Hard to say. The Corps of the 2nd Army suffered a lot, 31st Corps disbands (Manstein wanted to withdraw it from the battle but the 5th Guard catched it on the way!).
The German Tank formations are still working. They did not do more than 2-3 days fighting and received reinforcements already. New reinforcements will come during the next days so they are as strong as ever. But the reinforcements will be much lower than what zhukov will get.

The Luftwaffe has high casualties, but not as high as the Soviets. But with the reinforcements the Red Air Force may be surperior again.

Also - where have all these Tigers come from?:idea2:

Kagemusha

01-12-2006, 17:07

The fat lady havent sing yet.Option 1) Now that the 40th and 38th army stand side by side,order them to fight the 48th German tank corps.Those should slow it down until Kiev is ours. Both 5th continue the Assault against Kiev with 60th.KIEV must be taken tomorrow.Now that we see that the 1st tank army can stop the 47th.We will destroy the SS corps.Order the 2nd tank army together with 7th and 6th guards army to attack the SScorps from the North Let it be SS Totenkopf but one division cant Stop the Attack of a Tank army and two Guards armies.After that they should continue and hit the rest of the SS corps into rear.Order the 1st army to tie up the rest of the SScorps.Concentrate all your Airpower against the SS corps the 400 hundred new plains included.72th ,73th and 69th should continue tenacious defence against 11th ,42th and 3th tank.Do we have any other reserves then the new planes?If not now is the time to cry out for Stavka that we need everything here!

Franconicus

01-12-2006, 17:18

Kagemusha

01-12-2006, 17:29

Help is on the way, but it will take some time:

- 1st GdTk Corps: 13,000 men and 200tanks
- 20th Tk Corps: 12,000 men and 180 tanks
- 3rd GdTk Army 37.000 men, 492 guns, 699 tanks and 32 SPG
Additionally Timoshenko can send you 500,000 soldiers, 2,000 tanks and 5,000 guns from training camps to refit your units.

Where do you want them to be?

Here is the latest intelligence report for you (4 spies died for it):

German losses:
In total: 110,000 soldiers, 237 AT and 350 Tanks and 630 planes

In detail:

2. Armee: 42,000 men 57 AT
9. Armee: 38,000 men 141 AT 100 Tanks
Kempf: 9,000 men, 30 AT, 52 Tanks
4. Panzerarmee: 22,000 men, 9 AT, 198 Tanks

Don't forget that Fritz gets reinforcements too:

AT:
100 Hetzer
50 Wespe
250 StuG III
50 StuG IV

Tanks:
300 Mark IV
250 Panther
50 Tiger

Well if everything goes down the toilet.This will be our new front line:

- 1st GdTk Corps: 13,000 men and 200tanks
- 20th Tk Corps: 12,000 men and 180 tanks
- 3rd GdTk Army 37.000 men, 492 guns, 699 tanks and 32 SPG
Additionally Timoshenko can send you 500,000 soldiers, 2,000 tanks and 5,000 guns from training camps to refit your units.

If we succeed on the Operation against the SScorps.With these new armies we can do them what they are doing to us We have many anvils ready against the German formations.But no hammers now except the 2nd tank army.

discovery1

01-12-2006, 19:05

1) Keep attacking, we can't stop now.

Are the Jerries bringing in supplies to Kiev via the Dnieper?

Franconicus

01-13-2006, 11:10

No, they bring it to Kiev via train and then distribute is via train or road. They would have used the Dnjepr too, but it is closed now.

discovery1

01-13-2006, 18:59

Ah k. Ty. ANd they aren't even trying to smuggle stuff in via the Dnieper under the cover of darkness. Seems like it's the only possible way in.

Franconicus

01-13-2006, 21:53

Well, Kiev is cut off for three days now. It has more supply than the two 5th Guards :laugh4:
There is a strong tank corps west of the river and a strong tank corps east of it. So no need to worry.

Franconicus

01-16-2006, 14:44

THE GUARD DIES …

August 16th – London. Marshallo Badoglio asks Great Britain for peace talks.

August 16th – night and morning
Kiev
According to Zhukov’s decision his armies continue to assault Kiev. The 5th Guard Army knows very well that its fate depends on the success of the next morning. So even during night the fighting never stopped. Assault teams advance from house to house. Artillery shoots its last bullets to break the German resistance. But the Germans are not passive, or even beaten. Again and again they make counter attacks to recapture a house or a block.
In the morning the big attack begins. Without support of tanks or artillery the Russian infantries run through the streets trying to reach the bridges. Although they have high casualties they seem to be unstoppable.
In the south the 5th Guard Tank Army did not dare to make an attack during night with its tanks. When morning breaks they get reinforcements: Leonov joins with the rest of his Task Force - 8,000 men and 20 guns. Rotmistrov orders to attack. The Guard soldiers have to learn that the Germans used night to fortify their positions. All roads are blocked with blockades and mines. A couple of hidden 8,8 cm Flak and Elefants fire at the Rotmistrov’s tanks. Soon the streets are closed with tank wrecks. Infantry tries to overcome the barricades and overbear some guns and assault guns, but the attack soon gets stuck.
From the north the 60th Army starts its attack too. Again they get fire from three sides. An attack from the 23rd Corps forces them to retreat on the other side of the Desna.
The 38th and 40th keep their defensive position. In the morning everything is quiet there.

South
At the southern section the 6th Guard and 7th Guard start their operation to release the trapped armies. The German divisions give way and march northeast. The trapped armies can leave the encirclement though the 11th and 42nd Corps chase them hard. The area northwest of Poltawa is the stage for a hard aerial combat, again. The Soviets have refilled their rows and give the Germans a hard fight. Numbers are equal. While the Germans have more fighters the Soviets bring more ground attack planes. Both sides have casualties; both sides manage to damage the ground forces of the enemies.
North
The 1st Tank keeps in place, but there is no German attack. The 2nd Tank Army already started to march southeast during night.

East
57th Corps and 7th Corps start an operation against the 4th Army. Together with the 57th Army the Soviets manage to hold the fort.

August 16th – noon
Kiev
5th Guard Army manages to reach the river. With a desperate assault they take the southern bridge. Now it is 7 km apart from the position of the 38th. Suddenly the 41st Corps attacks from the west and breaks into the units that are still outside of the river – staff, communication, supply, artillery. The men run away and try to reach the bridge. There the 20th Corps tries to regain the bridge but the 5th Guard repels the attack.
The 5th Guard Tank still does not get going. All roads are blocked. It is attacked by Stukas. Fuel is low and ammo is running out.
On the other side of the Dnjepr the 48th Corps is finally starting to attack the 40th and 38th Army. 38th is retreating while the 40th hold the fort.
South
While the Soviets try to build a continuous front line the German Tank Corps advance further north. Air attacks cause casualties on both sides.

August 16th – 15:00
The soldiers that escaped the German tank corps arrive at the bridge and cause some confusion. General Zhadov is wounded at its shoulder. He does not get any news from the 5th Guard Tank and does not see much chance to hold the bridge much longer. So he orders to leave the bridge and assault the German position in the eastern periphery. 38th Army receives the call from the 5th Guard and assaults too. At 17:00 the two armies meet. 5th Guard evacuates Kiev. However, several thousands of the Guard soldiers are still trapped inside of Kiev. They keep on defended some blocks at the centre.
Rotmistrov tries everything to get his tanks to the bridge. Disesteeming the casualties he tries to break through the German lines. It is a bloody hand to hand combat. At 16:00 Rotmistrov gets the message that strong German tank forces attack him at the periphery. Then the news is spread that the 5th Guard gave up the bridge. The Soviet soldiers panic. Some try to swim across the Dnjepr, some surrender, some run into the fire of the German machine guns. Rotmistrov cannot stop them. When he sees that his army is lost he enters a tank and attacks the German forces. At 17:30 his tank is hit. Rotmistrov survives and is arrested by German grenadiers.

When night falls the fronts are getting quiet. Only at Kiev there is heavy fighting between the trapped Guard members and the Germans, especially SS troops from the probation companies.
When Zhukov’s makes the survey of the day he has to see that two Guard Armies are gone while four trapped armies are back again. However, the German tank forces in the rear are frightening and the fall of Kiev will certainly release some German formations. So he makes his orders for the next day:

Give order to the 1st and 2nd Tank Army to place east and attack the SS Corps on August 18th. Order the rest to prepare a retreat towards east.
Order every army to form a continuous line of defence. Place the two tank armies east. When the reinforcements come the Soviets can attack the SS Corps from two sides.
There is still a corridor open. Give every army order to fight its way back.

Timoshenko needs to know where he should send the reinforcements. Keep in mind that there are:
1st GdTk Corps: 13,000 men and 200tanks
20th Tk Corps: 12,000 men and 180 tanks
3rd GdTk Army 37.000 men, 492 guns, 699 tanks and 32 SPG
as well as 500,000 soldiers, 2,000 tanks and 5,000 guns.
While the first are elite divisions the rest are reinforcements to replace casualties. So they have no organisation. The 1st GdTk Corps and the 20th GdTk Corps will be at Kursk tomorrow.

Send them to the front as soon as they arrive. Zhukov needs everything he can get.
Form a new group with the 35th Gd Army, the two Guard Corps and the 3rd Guard Tank Army. Deploy them as soon as they are all ready for combat. Leave the rest further east. They can prepare a new line of defence and can fill the armies when they retreated.
Use everything to make a line of defence. The battle of Kiev is lost and we must stop the Krauts somewhere or we will have to fight the battle of Moscow soon.

https://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie90xe.jpg

King Kurt

01-16-2006, 16:10

Mixed news it seems. Shame about Kiev, but 2 SS looks more isolated.
First - option 2 grab a breathing space then attack 2 SS. Our aim now is to make the front line the river Degna to the north and the Diepnr to the west. This threaten all of the german southern front and they would have to retreat to the river line. We regain vast areas of mother Russia and close the gap on Roumania and all the pressure that brings. We have significant reserves on the way which leads to item 2.
I would opted for a variant of 2. Gather the group to attack 2 SS while getting the other reserves to help stabilise the fronts. In particular there is an interesting gap between the German 11th and 48th - we should press into there to speed up the isolation of 2 SS.
We can still win a victory here - not as big as taking Kiev, but still substanial.~:cheers:

Kraxis

01-17-2006, 14:39

How many Guards made it out? 5th Guards Army seems to have escaped to an extent, that must be a substantial number of good soldiers. They can become vital later on.

Hmm... Option 1 is a basic one, no gain but little chance of losing any more. Option 2 is risky. If we can't beat the German flanks then we willl ose the rest of the three Fronts. Very bad, but chances are there for a major victory that might even open up the chances for retaking Kiev again. Option 3 will likely save more troops and equipment, but then we would enter a battle of maneuver which the Germans are still better at than us. Risky...

I would say that given the rough handling we have been given we should go for #1, we need safety first, victory can come later.

The second choice...
Given how I have chosen safety, I dare to presume that the front will hold if somewhat further east than we would like, thus it seems a strong reserve would be good. Option 2 fits choice 1's option 2 good, but I wonder why the replacements can't be sent to the front while the formed formations can be in tactical reserve? I mean unformed reserves are really really bad, in fact worse than worthless, they will soak up space and supplies but won't really add anything to a battle but dead bodies.
So I say strengthen the now weakened front formations with replacements, and position the three corps in reserve to hit the Germans where they might break through.

Franconicus

01-17-2006, 14:51

How many Guards made it out? 5th Guards Army seems to have escaped to an extent, that must be a substantial number of good soldiers. They can become vital later on.
7000 men, 3 guns. Moral is low!

I wonder why the replacements can't be sent to the front while the formed formations can be in tactical reserve
The connection of the front units with the rear is threatened by the Krauts already. I thought it was a bit risky to send the unformed replacements through the corridor. But if you wish, it is alright.

Kagemusha

01-17-2006, 15:59

When i look at the Strategig battle map.It seems obvious that the Germans are now trying to encircle our whole front.Either SS corps or 3rd tank corps will try to cut of the corridor.Its good that we are getting reinforcements,but what is delaying 3rd Gd Tank army?So the orders.First option 2.Dig in.Atleast now we have first time some depth in our defensive after the German counter attack begun.Inform every unit to prepare to fight on every direction.
Second option.Modified option 1.Send everything you can too the front as soon as you can,but i believe that there is not long anymore a corridor to use for refilling our armies.In the worst case SS corps will attack our supply train when they try to move through the corridor.So create new units from the replacements troops.If our front is surrounded tomorrow or the next day.We can still continue to fight for a long time.Time is on our side.When the 3rd Gd Tank army arrives we will crush the Southern German spearhead.

Franconicus

01-17-2006, 16:11

...what is delaying 3rd Gd Tank army?
It takes some time to transfer a complete tank army. It is supposed to arrive at August 21st, but there could be a delay of a day or two.
More planes will be available tomorrow.

Another report of the intelligence. Germans already received or will receive during the next days reenforcements:
2. Armee 20,000 50 AT
9. Armee 30,000 150 AT 250 (Mark IV)
4. PArmee 30,000 100AT 200 Tanks (200 Panther)
Kempf 20,000 150 AT 100 Tanks (50 Panther 50 Mark IV)
57 Corps 50 Tanks (50 Tiger)

Army Detachment Kempf, 7th Army Corps and 57th Tank Corps will form the new 8th Tank Army under General Kempf.

57th Corps has
• 17. Panzer-Division
• 23. Panzer-Division
• 111. Infanterie-Division
• SS-Division Wiking
• Sturmgeschütz-Detachment 203
• Sturmgeschütz-Detachment 243

Kagemusha

01-17-2006, 16:29

Do we have any numbers of 57th corps strength?Another german Tank corps.This is turning into nightmare.~:mecry:

Franconicus

01-17-2006, 16:47

Do we have any numbers of 57th corps strength?Another german Tank corps.This is turning into nightmare.~:mecry:
Maybe 60,000 men and 300-400 tanks and a couple of AT. They have 50 Tigers, most of the tanks are upgraded Mark IV, also some older models (Mark I, II III). One division is SS ('Wiking').

They are not new. They have been part pf the 1st Tank Army. During Zitadelle Manstein often called for the 'Wiking' but they would not give it to him. Now he has the power to order it. Like the Soviet Manstein mobilizes all his reserves. Looks like the fat lady will sing soon :inquisitive:

Kagemusha

01-17-2006, 16:57

Yep.I know very well the Wiking.All of the Finnish SS soldiers fought in that division.Also Felix Steiner was maybe one of the most able SS Division commanders.That is one of the reasons why i feel like crying.:sweatdrop:

Franconicus

01-17-2006, 17:45

Finnish to the front :laugh4:

Franconicus

01-19-2006, 11:26

So this is what you want?

Let the three fronts form a continous line and entrench
place the two tank armies east
bring in as much replacements as possible
form a strong reserve

Right?

Kagemusha

01-19-2006, 12:08

So this is what you want?

Let the three fronts form a continous line and entrench
place the two tank armies east
bring in as much replacements as possible
form a strong reserve

Right?

Yes.I would say more like a circle.Place infantry in the rounds on the circle and the tank armies in the center.If the Germans want to crack their heads against that let them do that.With current troops we cant play offensive anymore,but atleast when more armored reserves appear.We can get out If the Germans want encircle us.their troops will be very thin and we can brake their encirclement where we want with concentrated effort.:wall:

Franconicus

01-19-2006, 16:29

BREAK

After two weeks of hard fights, which culminated in the destruction of two guard armies, the battle eases off. The Soviet forces close the gaps in their line of defence and upgrade their positions. The two tank armies march eastwards. They advance slower than expected because the tanks have to cleave through other units.

The German tank corps shows little activities, too. The SS Corps sends small reconnaissance troops in every direction. A vanguard reaches the railroad west of Konotop. It picks off a supply train. Another vanguard comes close to Konotop.

In the west the German 41st Tank Corps starts crossing the Dnjepr.
Reconnaissance reports that the Germans bring reinforcements and supply to their corps.

The Soviets try to get as much reinforcements to their armies as possible. 5,000 soldiers and 90 tanks reach their new units. Now that the connection is blocked supply and reinforcements accumulate at Konotop. The commander of Konotop, a very gifted political officer, knows that the Germans are near and asks for orders. He has currently 10,000 men of the reinforcements, 150 tanks, 50 guns, ammo, fuel and other supply as well as some railroad engineers, sappers, supply and communication troops, MP and air defence units.

While the war on the ground makes a break the air war slows down too. It is getting cloudier and in the afternoon a storm front crosses the battle field. In the morning a group of Iljuschins is lucky. When they dive below the clouds they find a convoy of German assault tanks. No interceptors or air defence near or far. So they attack the undefended tanks and when they finally break up they leave 47 burning wrecks.

The Germans bomb Konotop. Stukas and other ground attackers circuit the 1st and 2nd Tank Army using every chance to attack.

At the evening of August 18th Zhukov looks at the reports:
In the west the 41st Tank Corps has almost crossed the river and joins the 48th Tank Corps. In the north the 47th Tank Corps is still where it was. In the east the SS Corps and the 3rd Tank Corps show little activities. They received supply and reinforcements. It looks like they are waiting for the Soviet tank armies.
His own armies are finally ready. The two tank armies are waiting for the order to attack.
Zhukov received several reports telling him that he temporary encirclement of four armies, the downfall of two guard armies and the news that the fronts are cut off has sapped the moral of the soldiers. Most of them lost their confidence. Although desertion is still small the numbers are increasing.
The 1st GdTk Corps is already on the way to the front. The 20th Tk Corps arrived at Kursk. Additional planes will come at August 20th.

Zhukov has to give orders to the commander of Konotop and to his tank armies:

A1: Defend Konotop to a man.
A2: Evacuate Konotop. Try to carry as much as possible with you and destroy the rest.

B1: Order the 1st and 2nd Tank Army to attack immediately. Let them both attack the SS Corps and then rescue Konotop.
B2: Order them to attack, but let the 1st attack the SS, the 2nd attacks the 3rd Tank Corps.
B3: Let them wait until the eastern tank force is complete.

C1: Let the eastern force (70.A, 48.A, 35 Gd.A., 1Gd.C) attack at once. The target is Konotop.
C2: Let the eastern force attack at August 20th. The target is the SS Corps.
C3: Let them wait until the rest of the tanks arrives. It will be August 22nd or 23rd.

Kraxis

01-19-2006, 17:18

Hmmm...

Well, it seems the Germans aren't going to press the issue about Konotop if we defend it (recon units aren't fighters), so I go for A1. 150 tanks should easily be able to defend a town against spearheads and recon forces, even if they are unformed. Besides the local commander seems to be a good fellow.

If I say B3 will the two Tank Armies attack when the eastern force attack? I mean I'm having a preference for the C2 option, but that is incompatible with the other two options for the Tank Armies (they will attack right away). And we need weight of numbers and coordination. If we attack a little here and there we will never win.

But I can say that I will not like C3 at all. Russian morale is a fickle thing, so when it begins to break down it soon becomes a torrent. We will need to act before it reaches that point, and I fear C3 is just beyond that. Besides the Germans will just have that much stronger defenses.

So for the moment I A1, B3 and C2, but I reverse the last two to B1 and C1 if the first doesn't mean a combined attack.

King Kurt

01-19-2006, 17:31

As often happens, I broadly agree with Kraxis. it seems both sides are exhausted and there are signs of the germans being spread a bit thin - the sucessful air attack, 2 SS not pressing on. The broad plan should still be to stabilise the northern flank and to push into the southern flank, cutting off 2 SS and establishing the river line to cause the retreat of the German's southern part of the whole front. It is still victory or the Gulag - let'e go for it.~:cheers:

Kagemusha

01-19-2006, 18:07

I agree with Kraxis on all points.But like Kraxis sayed.We shouldnt just throw rocks on the SScorps.Hit them both from East and west.1st and 2nd from the west.And also the forces on the east.:knight:

Franconicus

01-20-2006, 09:28

Here is more precise info about your eastern forces:
The 1st GdTk Corps will arrive during August 19th together with the 70.A, 48.A, 35 Gd.A. While the 1st Guard Tk Corps is elite, 48th Army is standard, the rest are only 2nd class armies (rapidly refitted).The 20th Tk Corps is proposed to arrive at August 20th at the front. Additional planes will come at August 20th, too. Your strongest unit, the Guard Tank Army will not arrive before 22rd or 24th.
Your western forces are ready to strike. Both tank armies had some casualties and suffer lack of fuel (the 1st also has limited ammo) but it should be enough to fight the Krauts and break through.

So feel free to adjust your timing!!

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 12:40

My points stand... Attack on the 20th. It just seems the best time.

Franconicus

01-23-2006, 10:51

ARLINGTON, LONDON, MOSCOW AND SCHYTOMYR
August 18th, Arlington. Pentagon receives a report of the latest operations against Germany, operation ‘Double Strike’. This bomb raid against targets in Southeast Germany looks like a big failure: 60 Flying Fortresses and some fighters picked off, 600 US soldiers dead, 176 bombers damaged. 41 of these bombers shot down by German fighters. German air force had only little casualties. At least the fighter production at Regensburg is disrupted for the next 9 months.
This is the second time the bomber command has high casualties. At August 1st there was a raid against the Romanian oilfields at Polesti with 177 B-24 Liberators. 53 were picked off and another 55 heavily damaged.
The commanding general holds responsible the strength of the German fighters and the lack of American long range escort fighters. The P-47 Thunderbolts had to return at the German border. Afterwards the Germans could pick off one bomber after the other.
This situation makes it impossible to make further raids against targets deep in Germany. The general hopes that the situation will improve significantly when the American will introduce a new long range escort fighter – the P-51 Mustang. This will not happen before December.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
August 18th, London: While he prepares his trip to Alexandria Churchill reviews the reports of his admirals, generals and intelligence officers.
The Battle of the Atlantic is still quiet. Most of the German submarines have left the battlefields and the convoys cross the Western Approach without a fight. Admiralty asks if they shall end the convoy bondage. This would increase transport capacity significantly. Churchill refuses. He still does not believe that the German navy is completely defeated.
The situation in Italy is unclear. Husky is finished and Sicily is occupied. However, most of the Axis armies were able to evacuate. Mussolini has resigned and the new government asked for peace, but the Italians are still fighting. Germans bring new troops to Italy. At September 3rd there will be the Allied landing at the Italian mainland. Churchill hopes that it will be successful. This time the Germans will hardly be taken by surprise. Churchill wonders what to do with the new Italian government. If they change sides this would give the Allied news options in the Med. He resolves to discuss this with Roosevelt.
Churchill reads the latest news from Russia. He frowns. The news is inconsistent. Russians report that they invaded Kiev and even took one of the big bridges. Germans report that they repelled the attack and even captured two guard armies. Obviously the Soviets have some problems. Well, a delayed Soviet victory can only help the Western Allies. Churchill received a note from Stalin. He urges him to increase the efforts against Germany and to create the second front as soon as possible. He also asks to increase the deliveries of war material again. Is the situation of the Russian more critical than he thought? Or is Stalin just emphasising once more the efforts of the Soviets?
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
August 18th, Moscow
Stalin meets his generals Nikolai Bulganin and Alexandr Vasilevski at the Kremlin. After hearing their reports Stalin says: “Comrades, I think the situation at Kiev is very critical and I wonder if Zhukov can handle the situation. Alexandr, I want you to get back to Zhukov’s HQ. I give you these documents with orders. In case that the break through operation fails or that the situation worsens you will take the lead and get my armies back. I give you plenty of rope.”
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
August 18th, Schytomyr: Guderian, Rommel, Galland and Ameluxen visit the Eastern Front. Manstein presents the latest operations: “We are going to start the final steps to destruct three entire fronts – one third of the Soviet western armies. The Soviet leaders are still paralyzed; they do little to save their armies. All they did so far is sending some reinforcements and to send their remaining tank armies to the eastern edge. They prepare to break through our tank corps – but they will fail! I expect that the battle will be over in two weeks. So we have to discuss now our future plans regarding military and diplomatic operations.”
Guderian is very pleased with the results: “Erich, this is outstanding. I agree that the Soviets are finished. It reminds me of the 1st Battle of Kiev. Well done.”
Manstein: “What is the situation at home and at Italy?”
Galland: “We had some success against the US bombers. Although they managed to bomb Regensburg they had to pay a high prize. I doubt that they will return before they have enough long-range fighters to protect them. This may give us the breathing time we need.
Currently we are evacuating the big towns. Speer dislocates the production eastwards and the population, especially the children, are sent to the country.
The Me262 is developing very well. Pre-series started and we could already equip a testing squadron. They test new tactics and weapons and try to fix the technical problems we still have with the turbos. The pilots are enthusiastic. They picked off a Mosquito – these planes were almost impossible to get before.
We also started to train pilots. We decided to equip the new fighters with experts only. So we can introduce them more rapidly and with bigger effect. The inexperienced pilots will still start with Me 109 or FW 190.
Soon we will have the first combat units ready. Speer promised to increase the production to 1,000 units per month. Then we will have the weapon to blow the bombers off the sky even if they send escort fighters.”
Rommel: “The situation at Italy is critical but under control. The Italians are still fighting, although their moral is very low. The Italian government started negotiations with the Allies – we are prepared for everything. The Allies will soon land at the Italian mainland. Due to their dominance at sea and in the sky we will have to retreat again.”
Guderian: “At home we are doing everything to help the armies at the fronts. The production increases as Speer promised. He is really a good man. Sometimes I wonder how the world would look like if we increased our production years before.
The conversion of the SS into military units is proceeding. Right now there are two new divisions – ‘Karl der Große’ and ‘Hohenstauffen’ – training at France. They will be ready for combat end of the year. Together with Wiking they could form another SS Corps. Several other divisions are currently formed now that the SS men passed the fundamental training program.”
Manstein: “All right. This is good news. So we have to discuss our next steps. I think the options are obvious:

A) Military operations:

Once the Battle of Kiev is over the Germans should continue their operations against the Soviets. The Soviets are weakened and there will never be a better chance to take them out of the war.
Once the battle is over the Germans should stop their troops and give them a break. This could be used for negotiations.
Once the battle is over, send troops to Italy, including the SS Corps and units of the Luftwaffe. It will take some time before the Russians are able to attack again. Now it is time to teach the Western Allies a lesson.

B) Diplomacy:

As soon as the battle is over, negotiate with the Russians. They should understand now that it is better for them to end war.
Negotiate with the Anglo-Americans.
Negotiate with both sides simultaneously.
Wait. The military situation is getting better and better. If the Germans wait the conditions will improve.
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Kraxis

01-23-2006, 15:21

Hmmm... Both A1 and A3 are tasty... But I get the feeling that A3 will leave the job unfinished as it has been so many times since 41.

A1!!!

The other one... Well since the pressure is put on the Ruskis I think it would be better to feel them out. By starting negotiations with them now we can put a pressure on the alliance, and they simply won't like being the only ones that takes losses. Out of spite (for the western allies) they could very well form a deal.

B1...

discovery1

01-23-2006, 16:57

A1 time for the knockout punch.

hmmmm

B1. Lets aim for breaking up the USSR into is component republics.Leave them with Russia proper.

Kagemusha

01-23-2006, 20:08

Agreed A1 and B1.:bow:

Franconicus

01-24-2006, 11:00

OFFICER’S HONOR

August 19th, 3 am, Eastern Front

SS Oberstgruppenführer “Sepp” Dietrich is smoking a cigarette and looking into the night. This day will see the decisive operation for the ‘Leibstandarte’ as well as for the other tank divisions. This time they will attack strong tank formations.

Dietrich reflects about the change of situation during the last weeks; Hitler’s assassination, the change of operation plans, the long retreat. More than once he had been wondering if the plan would work and if they would really be able to stop the Soviets at the Dnjepr. But Manstein’s ingenious plan worked, although these two guard armies advanced further than planned. But then the Soviet attack was blocked and the German counter strike took them by surprise. The SS Corps could easily break through the weak flank guard.
Since then they avoided to attack strong positions and tried to outmanoeuvre the enemies. Until now very successful. Casualties have been low and the three Soviet fronts are almost cut off.

Today the SS Corps will attack the 1st Tank Army, while the 3rd Corps will attack the 2nd. These are the strongest armies the Soviets have left. Simultaneously the two western and the northern tank corps will attack too and blast the Russian line of defence. If operations are successful, the resistance of the rest will break down soon. Well, Dietrich and his men had two days rest; the casualties of the last days have been replaced. And the SS Corps received 150 brand-new Panther to replace the lost 10 Tiger.
Soviet ground attack planes are a pain. But the German air defence has been increased and the Luftwaffe will do everything to keep the Soviets away.

If Zitadalle would have become reality he and his men would have had to face the same enemy, but with another scenario. The Kursk area was one big fortress and the Russians were prepared: ATG’s, heavy artillery, entrenched tanks, mines, tank traps …. Now the battle will take place in an open area, ideal for tank operations; ideal for German tanks. It will be a tank fight, guns and infantry will be less important.

Dietrich also thinks about the assassination. He talked with the team of the Kiev airport. He even met some of the SS soldiers of the punishment units. And he does not believe the official version of the story any more. But anyway, things changed for good and maybe today the Russians will get the defeat they need to agree a peace offer.

At the break of dawn German bombers fly over the front at lowest level. They attack the Soviet lines, especially the artillery positions and the HQ.

Then ‘Leibstandarte’, ‘Das Reich’ and ‘Totenkopf’ mount and advance while artillery bombards the Russian positions. Soon the German tanks meet their Soviet counterparts of the 1st Tank Army and the tank battle begins. 565 tanks and assault tanks meet 485 Soviet tanks.

At the same time further south the 3rd Tank Corps attacks the 2nd Tank Army. Numbers are almost equal here as the German 405 tanks and 20 assault tanks fight 451 Soviet tanks.

In the southwest the German 48th Tank Corps and the 41st Tank Corps start isochronous a combined operation with 800 tanks and 300 AT against the 3rd Army (82,000 men, 1150 guns, 50 tanks and 12 SPG).

At the northern sector, south of Tschernihiw, the refitted 47th Tank Corps attacks with 400 Tanks and AT the 69th Army. Though this army was reinforced after the hard fights too, they have only 730 guns and 30 tanks.

At the southwest the 3rd Army cannot stand the pressure of the Germans and breaks apart. Although the political officers try to make the soldiers stay they flee from the German tanks. The German spearheads break through, o
overrun the artillery positions and advance further.

In the north the 47th Tank Corps gets soon the upper hand too. General Kryuchenkin manages to avoid a panic and to collect the rest of the 69th.
In the meantime at the eastern front the SS is slowly advancing The German tanks, the upgraded Mark IV, the Tigers and especially the Panther outgun their opponents in this filed battle. At the 3rd Corps the battle is moving back and forth. Both air forces join the battle.

In the afternoon it comes to a decision. With the German 47th Tank Corps in the rear and the SS in front the 1st Tank Army gives up the fort. The SS turns south and advances the flank of the 2nd Tank Army, which breaks up the fight. Many Soviet soldiers give up or try to escape the German clinch all by themselves.

The 48th Tank Corps and the 41st Tank Corps advance through the centre of the Russian position and the Soviets forces are almost split. The German division don’t even take time to capture Soviet soldiers. They just send them back.

More bad news arrives Zhukov’s HQ. The 35th Corps starts to cross the Desna and the 7th Corps and the 57th Tank Corps advance to Charkow.
Zhukov sees his armies fall apart. The new tank armies are still too far away to attack. They can interfere tomorrow, but that is far too late. Zhukov looks desperately at Rokossovsky, Vatutin and Konev: “Comrades, do you have any proposals?” No one replies. Instead of that General Vasilevski having taken a back seat, steps in front of Zhukov:” Zhukov, Stalin asked me to give you this!”
Zhukov opens the documents and skims over the text:”Vassilevski, you know the content?”
Vassilevski: “Yes! Stalin divests you of all your offices. He appoints me commander-in-chief.”
Zhukov: “Do you know what he expects me to do?”
Vassilevski: “He wants you to come to Moscow at once!”
Zhukov: “And what do you expect me to do?”
Vassilevski: “I expect you to do what your officer’s honor requires!”
Zhukov: “Thank you!”
Zhukov leaves the room. A couple of minutes later the other generals hear a shot; Zhukov is dead.

Vassilevski: “Comrades, first of all the three fronts are combined to the new Central Front. Rokossovski, I want you to get the discipline straight again. You are the commander of the trapped armies. Get them ready for a break through. Vatutin, you fly to Kursk. We have to build a new line of defence. Take everyone you can get. Form new units. Build barricades. And be fast or the Germans will advance to Moscow. Konev, you leave and take command of the eastern forces. Built a force and keep the Germans busy for a while. You must give Vatutin time! ”

The three generals salute and turn away. Before he leaves Konev stops and turns at Vassilevski again: “Er, what about the planned operations for tomorrow. Shall the eastern forces with the 1st Gd Tk Corps, the 35 Gd Army, the 48th and the 70th Army, attack the SS Corps as planned or do you want them to retreat?”

Vassilevski hesitates for a moment. What will he order?

1) Let them attack the SS. Their line is expanded and they are not ready to repel an attack from the east. Although this manoeuvre is risky it is the last chance to get some of your boys out of the trap.

2) Let them retreat. The trapped units are lost anyway. Use the time to build a new line of defence in the east.

Kraxis

01-24-2006, 14:46

1

I doubt they can break through, but they can at least force the Germans to focus their efforts in another place, giving time to the trapped forces. Thus giving time to themselves. It will be nothing more than a delaying action, but that is what is needed.

Kagemusha

01-24-2006, 16:05

Once again i agree with Kraxis.Indeed now i can say that the fat lady has sang.option 1.:bow:

King Kurt

01-25-2006, 10:38

Been away for a bit - so much has happened - I go for 1 as well. For the previous, I would attack in Italy - more pressure on the West and I still think you can not knock the Russians out - and negociate with both sides.

Franconicus

01-25-2006, 16:11

THE FAT LADY SINGS

August 20th; Northwest of Sumy

General Konev leads the 1st Gd Tank Corps through the night. This corps spearheads his new force. With its 13,000 guard soldiers and 200 tanks it is his best unit he has got. He knows that the 35th Guard Army marches at his right side. Although it is a guard army it has been filled during the last days and is not well trained. Although it has 75,000 soldiers and almost 1,200 guns it has only 55 tanks. So it will not help a lot once they will attack the German tank corps. Maybe it can screen the flank. On his right there is the 70th Army. It had been crushed almost completely at the beginning of the Battle of Kiev and has been refitted during the last week. It is not well trained and he knows that its moral is low. Nominal, it is his strongest formation with 96,000 men, 1,600 guns and 115 tanks. At least that was the strength when they started to advance. Konev is sure that some of the men already run away. Well, maybe they will be caught by the 48th Army, Konev’s last army. It is his rearguard. It has 84,000 men, 1,450 guns, 134 tanks and 44 SPGs. The 48th used to protect the northern flank of the Belarusian Front. The Germans did not attack there, so the army has still its full strength. If he looks at his weak forces he realizes how much things have changed. Last time they had three proud fronts; and what is left?

Konev’s plan is simple. He hopes to find the joint between the 3rd and the 2nd SS Tank Corps. The 1st GdTk Corps will attack first and try to surprise the Fascists. Then the 48th will join. Konev does not cherish an illusion. He knows that it is not very likely to get through the German formation. But he also knows that this is the last chance, not only for the encircled troops – Konev does not care a lot about them – but for his own fate. Stalin will not forget that he was the commander of the right wing front, where the Germans broke through to sack three entire fonts. But if he succeeds today and releases the trapped armies he could become the hero of this battle. And he is not afraid of scarifying his forces to reach this goal.

At two o’clock Konev’s force passes the first refugees of the former Soviet fronts. Konev let them pass. They would not be able to help him. But he knows they will decrease the moral of his men.

At 3:30 his fore guard meets a big marching column; about 10,000 men under the leadership of a young political commissar named Leonid Brezhnev. After the lost tank battle Brezhnev decided to evacuate Konotop. The Germans destroyed the rails so they have to march. Brezhnev is able to give Konev detailed information about the German tanks. Obviously they are spread over a wide area and still busy chasing the rest of the Russian tank armies.

At 4:15 the Konev’s forces pass by the signs of the tank battle; burned tanks and killed men everywhere. Now the enemy is close. Konev decides to shorten his line and to give the soldiers a short break. He gives his commanders final orders. Galanin, the commander of the 70th tells him that many soldiers deserted over night.

5:30; the 1st Guard Tank Corps meets German tanks and attacks them at once. After a short gunfight the Germans retreat. Konev’s force advances further. Now that the Germans know that he is here he expects a counter strike. But obviously the Germans are taken by surprise. His convoy meets a couple of ATG positions but the Guard tanks clear the situation and the Russians advance.

6:15; the head of the 1st Gd. Tk. Corps meets a group of 15 tanks. After a short gunfight they realize that these are Russians too. Konev has made it. His force has made contact with the rest of the 1st Tank Army. Immediately he sends this message to the HQ. Together with the tanks of the 1st Tank Army Konev builds a line of defence and starts the evacuation.

7:30 35th Guard Army and 70th Army register the noise of tanks north and south of Konev’s force. Recon teams report that German tanks march eastwards.

General Katukov, the leader of the 1st Tank Army reaches Konev’s command post. He is very glad to see Konev, because he had not expected to get help from outside. His own army is shattered. It is surrounded by 5 German tank corps and attacked from two sides. The 2nd Tank Army is not doing better. For the first time Konev realizes that he has to deal with five instead of two German tank corps. The western and northern corps crossed the trap. Konev understands that he cannot hold the corridor for long and that he has to retreat as soon as possible. Katukov urges him to wait and to give the wounded ones a chance to leave the trap. Right then Konev gets the news that his rearguard is attacked from north and south. Short time later he hears that German tanks attack him from west too. Between the millstones formed of five German tank corps Konev force gets pulverized. At 9:30 the HQ receives the last cry for help from Konev’s force disbands.

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QUINTILI VARE, LEGIONES REDDE!

August 21st; Tula - Russia

Once again Stalin meets his generals Nikolai Bulganin and Alexandr Vasilevski at the Kremlin. Vasilevski gives an update: “The encircled men are lost. They are disorganized and separated. The communication system broke down. There are some separated units still fighting. But there is no chance for them to break out. The German infantry corps are tightening the snare. Konev’s release force is lost too. We do not know how, but he was trapped by the Germans. We have some armies, including a Guard Tank Army east of the trap. They will try to slow the Germans down and give Vatutin time to form a new line of defence at the Kursk area.”

Stalin:” So all three fronts are lost completely? How could this happen? Weren’t we much stronger than the Germans? Weren’t we sure confident to win?”

Vasilevski shakes his head: “It is not time to wonder why. It is time to wonder how we can stop the Germans. I hope it will take some time until the Germans start a new operation. We must do everything to build a new line of defence. Right now we have a gap of several hundred kilometres only filled with some inexperienced, uncoordinated units.”

Bulganin: “We have to stop the Germans and we will do it again. Remember 1941. The first Battle of Kiev was the same disaster and there was not much left between Moscow and the Fascistic hordes. But did the capture the town? No! The Red Army and the Soviet people stopped them. Why shouldn’t we be able to do it again?”

Stalin: “This is not 1941. Not even 1942. We have already lost or missed in combat 15 million soldiers. We have 14 million wounded. And we have lost a big part of our country. Where do you think that the new soldiers will come? Last time we received reinforcements from Asia. But these armies are already reduced to the minimum.”

Vasilevski: “You are right. Nevertheless we are not finished. We have seen bad days before. I think we should talk with our allies. They will send us more weapons.”

Stalin: “I doubt they will! But what worries me even more is the political situation. How long do you think will the people go on working like slaves and fill the armies with weapons and soldiers when they are defeated each time? My staffs have failed completely! We must be aware that there will be riots as soon as the news about Kiev is spread!”

Bulganin: “The trouble has already begun. Today I received information about a strike at the tractor factory ‘Molotow’. As you know, this is our biggest production line for the T34. The workers refuse to work. They demand to end war.”

Stalin: “Why didn’t you call the army?”

Bulganin: “I did! I called Vatutin! He said he could send some companies but he doubts this would help. He has the same problems. The new recruits refuse to fight. Many of them desert.”

Stalin: “We have two options:

A1) We try to find an arrangement with the Germans. Now they have a new government. Maybe there is a chance for acceptable conditions.

A2) We collect all our forces and keep on fighting. We have to ask the allies for more help and – most important – for the second front. And lets hope winter comes early this year.”

B) Answer Stalin’s question: What is responsible for the Kiev disaster?