Soviet forces structure

[Franconicus]

Sorry to start a second thread on this topic. But I still do not understand the Soviet org completely.

What I know is the German structure with:

Division (smallest independent unit)
Corps
Army
Heeresgruppe

I know that the tanks are concentrated in extra divisions (Panzerdivision, Panzerkorps, Panzerarmee).

How about the Soviets?

They have

Corps
Army
Front

But how can you compare the German units with the Soviet. I assume that front is somehow smaller than HGr.

And what is the difference of Army, Tank Army, Guard Army?~:confused:

[Grey_Fox]

Any unit that is called 'Guards' is a unit that has distinguished itself on the battlefield.

A Soviet Front is several Army Groups.

A Soviet Division is half the size of it's Allied counterparts.

That's all I can recall at the moment.

[Franconicus]

Any unit that is called 'Guards' is a unit that has distinguished itself on the battlefield.
Did they have better equipment?


A Soviet Front is several Army Groups.
Really? There were three German army groups but 11 Soviet fronts in Russia in 1943 (if I count right).


A Soviet Division is half the size of it's Allied counterparts. So maybe 5,000 to 10,000 soldiers?

[Grey_Fox]

Did they have better equipment?

Not necessarily. It was like a Soviet version of the US's Presidential Unit Citation.

Really? There were three German army groups but 11 Soviet fronts in Russia in 1943 (if I count right).

The Soviets had three or four men for every one German, so that could explain the difference.

So maybe 5,000 to 10,000 soldiers?

Say about 8,000-10,000 men at full strenght.

[CBR]

A soviet rifle division was something like 50-70% of a German infantry division. Depending a bit on what year as both nations reduced the strength as they could not replace losses.

Their armies varied in size but would be like 1-2 German corps. Fronts varied in size too so could be anywhere between a German army and army group.

http://www.angelfire.com/wi2/foto/ww2/proh/page4.html Thats an overview of the Soviet and German forces for Kursk, Orel and Belgorod-Kharkov operations.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/stuff/bayonet_strength.htm A bit of info on battalion and division strength


CBR

[Kraxis]

German formations were in general larger. A Russian Corps was seldomly more than two divisions (in Guards they were often three though) and Armies were around 3 Corps while German Corps could contain up to 5 divisions and their Armies up to 5 Corps.

A Front was similar to an Army Group as Armies were collected into Fronts. But the Russian formations were less individual than their German counterparts. There were specific Artillery Armies and so on downwards, making the structure extremely top-heavy.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think this explains some of it: http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/jun41/f22jun41.htm

(it's a good chronology too btw, I read through it entirely)

[Franconicus]

Excellent information! Thank you all!:bow:

[Rosacrux redux]

Topic's covered for the greater part by the links, only one minor nitpick: the Guard units would be the first to get new equipment and they'd also have priority in support.

[Kraxis]

Topic's covered for the greater part by the links, only one minor nitpick: the Guard units would be the first to get new equipment and they'd also have priority in support.
Agreed... They were more than 'just' units with a citation, more along the lines of the German Volksgrenadiers (before Hitler began forming new half-crap units called that). They are a sort of Heer elite units that also had priority to an extent.

[Franconicus]

What is a Volksgrenadier? I know Panzergrenadier (which means motorized infantry) and Volkssturm (which means cannon fodder).

[Rodion Romanovich]

If I remember correctly one of the Soviet Guard brigades reinforced the Stalingrad factory area at a crucial moment, when the Soviet Operation Uranus was about to be launched. Holding the city and thus the line in front of the German 6th Army city was important for Operation Uranus to be as successful as it was. That's probably one of the more important tasks where Soviet Guards brigades were involved during ww2.

[Kraxis]

What is a Volksgrenadier? I know Panzergrenadier (which means motorized infantry) and Volkssturm (which means cannon fodder).
They started out as a given name to infantrydivisions that did very good in battle. But over time Hitler thought it was good to expand their ranks, and gave the name to pretty much every division he liked to. And finally a whole structure was built up around that, so that the Volksgrenadier divisions were more like weakened infantrydivisions filled with worst of the accepted soldiers.

The soldiers were enrolled in the army unlike the Volksturm and they had a real command structure and divisional level equipment, something the Volksturm always lacked.
In battle these formations were meant to soak up allied or Russian attacks so that the real army units could move in and deal with them. A very wasteful strategy, but it actually worked quite well in the east.

[JimBob]

If I remember correctly one of the Soviet Guard brigades reinforced the Stalingrad factory area at a crucial moment, when the Soviet Operation Uranus was about to be launched. Holding the city and thus the line in front of the German 6th Army city was important for Operation Uranus to be as successful as it was. That's probably one of the more important tasks where Soviet Guards brigades were involved during ww2.
Rodmitsev's 13th Guards Division. They landed to the south and saved the rail station. The lead units took 30% casualties going up the riverbank alone. That was earlier, by Uranus 62nd was getting only the minimum it needed to not be overrun. The factories were held primarily by Batyuk's 286th Siberean Division.

Fun facts to break out at parties.

[Randarkmaan]

Here's some good info on the Red Army structure and TO&E

General info about the Red army of WWII
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/red_army.htm

Russian Rifle Battalion
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/russian_rifle_battalion.htm

Reduced Strength Rifle Battalions
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/reduced_strength_rifle_battalion.htm

The Russian Motor Rifle Battalion
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/russian_motor_rifle_battalion.htm

The Russian Ski Battalion
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/russian_ski_battalion.htm

The Russian Tank Battalion
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Armour/russian_tank_battalion.htm

Russian Divisional Organisations
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/RedArmy/russian_divisional_organisations.htm

Red Army TO&E, info about ranks and stuff
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/RedRifle/battalion.htm

Rifle Company TO&E
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/RedRifle/Rifle%20Company.htm

Support Company TO&E
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/RedRifle/support_companies.htm

Battalion Headquarters TO&E
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/RedRifle/battalion%20headquarters.htm

If you want to see the structure and TO&E of more WWII armies, here's the site's index...
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/index.htm

[Redleg]

I was going to add some information - but the links provide do a decent job and saves me from having to type.

Good info on the Guards Divisions and Stalingrad Jimbob.