How to keep the late game interesting

[antisocialmunky]

I'm wondering how we could keep the late game, 50%+ of the map is conquered by one faction, interesting. I'm wondering if we could script triggers to better enemy generals or something. What about you guys?

[Kagemusha]

I think its an big problem on all campaigns.How to make the player intrested to the end. Honestly i dont have a clue how to achieve that.:san_embarassed:

[antisocialmunky]

I think we could figure out a way to script it so that the AI begins getting really good generals at certain points in the game...

In the study I did, after a certain point(a very early point), the amount of farm land controlled withing a given perimeter, can sustain all garrison and border armies. There's nothing economic we can really do with the late game so... I dunno really.

[hellenes]

I think we could figure out a way to script it so that the AI begins getting really good generals at certain points in the game...

In the study I did, after a certain point(a very early point), the amount of farm land controlled withing a given perimeter, can sustain all garrison and border armies. There's nothing economic we can really do with the late game so... I dunno really.

Civil wars...
That what made me on my toes in MTW espessially as HRE...
If you can afford the faction slots...

Hellenes

[antisocialmunky]

We really can't, we might start modifying rebellion triggers as the game moves on, but RTW doesn't support civil war, except the scripted ones we have.

[hellenes]

We really can't, we might start modifying rebellion triggers as the game moves on, but RTW doesn't support civil war, except the scripted ones we have.

Isnt this mod for BI?
Then why dont you use the Roman culture that HAS rebellions and civil wars...
I just dont know if you can make all factions roman culture and create their half rebel factions...

Hellenes

[antisocialmunky]

I think only two factions can have civil wars. It's hard coded :(. Right now, those are being used for the emergence of Tokugawa and Toyotomi's Sucession if I have it correct.

[antisocialmunky]

Just a little double post. I've started a parallel thread in our parent forum here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39976

And a seperate idea:

[quote]If we really wanted to, we could always add in the Korean Mainland as a diversion from conquering Japan.

It'd be interesting we could script an optional Korean Conquest Victory Condition. I would be very supportive of that, even if Korea is just filled with 'Ming' rebels and is damn near impossible to hold due to culture and loyalty issues.

This is how Micropose made Master of Orion 2 fun, they made a victory condition that allowed the player to invade the crazy powerful(only when you start playing it) Antarian homeworld for the most prestigious win.

It was a good way to avoid the boredom of xenocide.
[quote]

[beauchamp]

Dude....its far more fun if the game is difficult, besides, the Oda will find ways to fall. Take History for example, THEY didnt end up running the country... in the end.

It just means that if you play as the Oda, you will have a better chance of winning, if your playing as any of the other clans, prepare for war!

[soibean]

if you could script some way to decrease the public order percentage after a certain number of provinces are taken over...

[jean_s]

could be after you have conquered over 70% of the map:

your faction to split between you and your best general (including the provices) ...like a betrayal...

...and after that a really great war (considering that he will take you also some of the best units you have and also provinces).

probably the best you can get is to give him an udivided teritory...

...it was just an ideea :)

[Helgi]

[quote]If we really wanted to, we could always add in the Korean Mainland as a diversion from conquering Japan.

It'd be interesting we could script an optional Korean Conquest Victory Condition. I would be very supportive of that, even if Korea is just filled with 'Ming' rebels and is damn near impossible to hold due to culture and loyalty issues.

This is how Micropose made Master of Orion 2 fun, they made a victory condition that allowed the player to invade the crazy powerful(only when you start playing it) Antarian homeworld for the most prestigious win.

It was a good way to avoid the boredom of xenocide.
[quote]

A invasion of the Korean Peninsula as a prestigious win, would make the make it not only more fun but historically correct. The thing is though, you would need to have Korea and Ming China as a non-playable faction or as rebels.
:ave:
The Antarian idea would extend it and present a nice challange after committing Genocide on your Japanese rivals:viking: :eeeek:

[Kagemusha]

I cant do that at this moment.If we hawe 20 plus one rebel faction.Thats about that.:blankg:

[antisocialmunky]

We can name the rebel factiosn remember?

[alahir]

i dont think civil war would be right
no samurai would EVER turn on their lord

so only non- samurai troops would turn and none of your existing leaders

[soibean]

well maybe they wouldnt turn against their lord but there would be rival forces within the same faction
My example would be from the book Shogun by James Clavell
you could script a division within the factions, but the best you could offer was using a faction slot as the rebels... or maybe using a faction that would definately be dominated every time come back out
only problem is if you're playing as that faction

I can really only see the introduction of a new faction with sufficient force or a superior location as a threat. If you did introduce something like that, say when you own 70% of the land if thats possible, then you could have all AI factions ally with it upon appearance, if possible again.
Im just rambling now sorry

[alahir]

why not make an invasion from the mongols like in mtw when the golden horde come in

that kept mtw interesting

[alahir]

why not make an invasion from the mongols like in mtw when the golden horde come in

that kept mtw interesting

[Lord_Morningstar]

I'd be more in favour of the Korean peninsula than any of the other options, even if one of the Japanese factions needed to bite the dust in the end to do it (although it would work with rebels). Making the game harder to manage economically at a stage where you hold dozens of provinces sounds like sadomasochism to me, and a civil war would simply mean that you have end up conquering half the same cities again.

[Dermeister]

yea um in my personal opinion the rebelign of cities that u took over elryer just to make it more hard ... is not a good idea id like much better the korean penesula idea or somthing els all together or why not just let the game go as it shoueld and do nothing to make it harder .. jsut put al lthe dificulty sliders at max if the player chooses to do so.I think id remain interested if its a good map and froem the japan map iv see nits impresive.. alot of clans... good 3d models and nice descriptions of eahc clan to let u immers ur self in that clan :) cant wait to get that mod.

[alahir]

why not make it when you take half the map all enemy make a anti you army and join together into 1 faction

[Dermeister]

So ok all ur alies woueld turn on u??? how honorable is that of them?? u take half the map and ur close freidns uv alied wivv will jsut go agaisnt u instead of helping u?? i think thats not a very good idea soem clans tho might of ben back stabers but not all.. maby an alliance of al lthe clans ur at war with unit for a comon cause... but not ur alies.. and maby some of the nutrals pick 1 side or choose to remain nutral.. but i think its ridiculus to have al lthe clans go against u. that is my opinion, maby just not bother at al labout how the player wil lstill get chalange half way through and concentrate on finish the mod they allready started instead of keeping adding and adding ?i dunno its just how i feel about it. ounce its finished maby the mods will be more inspired on a way to keep things interestign with out making a mess of it..

[trlz]

Distance from capital penalty should keep things interesting.

or

A law of diminishing return where each extra province you own contributes less to the empire once the empire is past a certain size. Like modeling increasing corruption/maintenance costs for a large empire. Make it so some one with 50 provinces has only a 10% advantage compared to 30 provinces.

[ratbarf]

Hmm... When I played MTW for the first time I was the english. I pretty much conqured most of northern europe and the spanish peninsula. But when I got to eastern Europe the Byzantines were waiting. On some fluke they had managed to grab about half the freaking map under one empire. We had an awsome fight which ended in a stalemate until the mongols came along and massacered them... But since they managed to conquer almost half of the map it made it quite interesting to continue since they could field large armies in multiple provinces. Maybe you should script it so that one clan will rise to dominance among the surrounding clans. Then Japan would be split into at least two large factions and several small ones to snap at any shown weakness.

ANyways I just thought that would be cool. Also you could introduce the Korean peninsula like that aztecs are introduced in MTW2.

Greate work guys can't wait!!!

[Dexter]

I played the original Shogun 10x1000 times .. and i always did fight to the last battle ... it is question of endurence and perseverence ... if the mod comes out ... well bie bie hard drive ... welkome coffe LoL

[by jove!]

It was always the best moment when the two factions dominating the maps would invade the bordering provinces in STW! The Mori clan did my cheese in!
:beam:

[Raz]

I like the idea by Dermeister. How all your enemies unite against you.

... That is all. :laugh4:

[HKagemusha]

Well if this becomes an issue after the launch of the mod, the two things you could look at are religion and succession wars.

In the case of religion, as you come close to conquering japan those opposed to your religious ideology will undoubtedly mass defect against you. If you are christian, massive ikko ikki rebellions popping up, not just in traditional ikko ikki territories, but in farther off provinces where buddhist minorities are being repressed as well as they team up with local ronin and other dissatisfied locals. If you are buddhist, all coastal provinces should be hit hard by christian rebellions. Perhaps you could even create a Western marine-type unit for this specific purpose. The potential of a STRONG and WELL ARMORED rifle unit that can also fight in melee.

The way you could avoid these two outcomes is to follow shinto beliefs, but in that case you miss out on much larger advantages of being buddhist or christian.

As for succession wars, well that was always the most difficult part about unifying any country so it would only make sense. When a big conquering leader dies (regardless of how much of japan you own) you should enter a period of succession wars. As for how to implement this, well you could simply spawn rebels, you could script massive loyalty plunges in certain units, perhaps even based on religion? I don't know how else you might be able to implement this, but spawning a horde of some sort could also work (I don't know if rebels can horde as I own BI but have hardly played it)

[ares117]

hi, im new to this forum and mod.
As an idea, how about when you have conquered 70% of the map, the imperial army goes agaisnt you and all remaining clans ally with it? it's not as if there was no emperor. well, just an idea.

[LennStar]

There was an emperor, but
1. without much power or army and
2. the SHOGUN (means hopefully you) is the leader of the "imperial army".

In this time you can forget the imperial family. The sengoku jidai was for finding who the shogun is, its not that the emperor had much to say who "his" first man would be. It was mostly the question of who hold Kyoto.
(Thats the reason why there was the Meijji "Restauration" 1868 to bring back the emperor to power.)

Uniting all enemy clans at this point would be the best way (or better, at 50%), for a in-game Sekigahara, with some spawned armies (which you have to defeat all), but I don't think thats possible?

[Theif55]

only warrior dont turn on their master but non warrior like smuriai will !

[Thermal]

when it comes down to it i think historical accuracy could be sacificed to a certain extent if it meant better gameplay, keep lots of clans with 1 well-developed region each maybe (even if they werent historically around at that time) and the big clan could hav undeveloped countries

another idea, add clan specific japanese units in the late one, mostly for the clans with a disadvantage, though that would mean more work for you, anyway im sure the 70% domination could be scaled down to 50% without too many noticing ;)

[aimlesswanderer]

I agree that there is a need to make it more difficult near the end, however, you don't want it to be so annoying that you just couldn't be bothered to finish the game. Maybe a bit more corruption to constrain revenue. The old STW "re emergence of faction" perhaps, if that can be arranged, as long as the armies aren't too large, since you can't teleport (ship) your armies the length of the country any more.

What you don't want is piles of extremely annoying rebels popping up all over the place, and you spending most of your time getting rid of them. Especially since there is so much forest, they could hide out there for decades and not be noticed.

[antisocialmunky]

Sadly, what I wanted to do could be done in MIITW, namely open up Korea -> Beijing as a place to invade just for fun. Expand the map on the year when Toyotomi Hideyoshi. I would love to fight upstream against the Ming spam.