Alternate History:The Thirty Years War

[Lord Winter]

I thought I would start a new alternate history about the 30 years war The Rules will be very similar to King Henry V alternate history. First three post decide with the tie going to the first post. First two posters can suggest other options. Any comments on writing style, relism or hitorical accuracy are welcomed.

Historically The 30 years war marked the end of the Holy Roman Empire as a major power. The war was fought under the banner of religion between the Catholics and the Protestants although many rulers used it for political means. The right decision could change the outcome of the war however.




You are Ferdinand II Holy Roman Emperor. Since the start of your reign five years ago the Empire had been engaged in civil war against the Protestant elector Fredrick V this rebellion has been crushed but the future of the Holy Roman Empire is far from certain. Religious unrest is widespread as Catholics and Protestants fight each other in the over their religion. France, the Dutch and England have all expressed there hate against your house, the Hapsburgs. Europe is dived into to two leagues: the Catholic league you are apart of and the Protestant league which your enemies belong too. War is now imminent and if the Holy Roman Empire is too survive swift action needs to be taken.

It is a typical meeting between you the electors of the Holy Roman Empire and the ambassadors from Spain and the Catholic league. The standard maneuvering for political advantage sometimes makes you sick. But nether-the-less you feel it is just one of the things you must put up with for the sake of the Empire.

As the last of the council sorts into the room you stand to make the opening speech:

“Honorable Electors and ambassadors, as you all know the realm and the Catholic league are far from safe, a collation of nations has formed against the great power of the Holy Roman Empire and her rulers the Hapsburgs. We must now decide our next step of action, I am open to suggestions”

“Christian of Denmark has been known to speak about his wish of challenging the catholic league; if we were to presumptively invade Denmark it would limit the damage the war would cause and give us a foothold in the mostly protestant Baltic”, the elector of Saxony suggested.

“My lord, as you know your cousin has requested your help against the Dutch. By helping the Spanish you would free more of her forces if you need Spain’s help again,” your cousin’s ambassador voiced. You see some promise in helping your cousin for you have favors to repay for his help against Fredrick V. The Dutch have also been trying to rally many of the German princes in rebellion against the Catholic League.

“May I suggest allying with Poland? By doing so we would gain an ally who may help us if Sweden invades.” Maximillian of Bavaria, leader of the Catholic alliance and your chief ally suggests. You also see advantages in this plan. Gustavus Adolphus the king of Sweden has wished many times that he wasn’t at war at Poland so he could play the role of champion to the protestant cause.
It is now time for you to decide



1. Presumptively invade Denmark, doing so would keep the devastating impacts of war off Hapsburg land and would give you a foothold in the Baltic.

2. Attack the Dutch at Spain’s request: this would free up additional Spanish forces and get rid of a member of the anti Hapsburg league.

3. Ally in Poland in hopes of gaining support in the event of an Swedish invasion.

[Franconicus]

Destroyer, thanks for this new story and good luck!
What year do we start?

I would prefer 2 and 3. Attack the Dutch and secure your rear with an alliance. But if I have to chose it is 3. Before we start a war, let's find allies!

May Habsburg rule forever!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Ferdinand2.jpg/180px-Ferdinand2.jpg

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree, 3 is my choice, own alliances are always good, when enemies ally against you. Poland being catholic can still keep good relations with the pope and catholic side, which would make it politically tougher for the hostile alliance to justify an attack, although far from impossible. On the other hand this stiffens relations with the protestants, but it's probably worse with a potential war with the catholic nations. In any case Poland also shares interests by wanting to defend against a possible Swedish alliance, so without making any real choices of side in the religious aspect, it's possible to ally with Poland.

The second option is no. 2, but as it involves choosing side religiously, it's less desirable. On the other hand, if it turns out impossible to balance between the religions and at the same time meet demands of the protestants and those of the catholics, choosing side in the religious aspect is necessary. Then, the catholic side would be preferable, due to numbers, and it seems slightly more strongly united than the protestant side. Denmark and Sweden for instance don't seem to care much for peace internally, despite both being protestants. Then, the Dutch seem the best target, as they're trying to rally help from German provinces, which may turn out dangerous. Freeing up troops is always a good thing, also. Hopefully the war can be won before the Swedish or others invade, and if not, the Spanish have at least done fairly well in the war so far, so there's no hurry sending back German troops to the Dutch front after a Swedish attack has been dealt with, especially not if the German attack can cause enough damage to the Dutch fighting forces, and not just their morale.

By the way no. 1 would potentially hurt an important opponent of Sweden. To even make Denmark fight Sweden as an ally of us, if possible, would be useful to arrange.

Edit: corrected a mistake

[Franconicus]

To my understanding: We are already part of the Catholic League - maybe even the leader - aren't we? So sides are clear. And our political goal is to regain the power and the unity of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, right? That means, whipe out protestantism!

Wait a monment! What amI doing here. I am a Lutheran myself :san_shocked:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, I realized I was unclear at that point. What I meant was that religion itself is in this case just a political tool :evil:. We're allied to the catholic league militarily, but that doesn't necessarily force us to be good catholics and fight all who are protestants. The protestants who aren't protestants but just rebels but claim protestantism for the sake of forming a strong alliance for their own causes, can for instance be separated from those who are more strongly supporting the protestantism. If the protestantic faith could be fought while meeting some demands of those claiming to be protestants, the pope would be happy, and many rebels would lose incentive for their rebellion (of course this must be done in a clever and careful way, not making the rebels feel their uprising or lack of strength to subdue them caused it, if possible - so the no.2, dutch choice, might be preferable. A great victory there followed by fairly just terms would work fine IMO). If at the same time keeping the prestige and respect of the army and strength of the empire high, it would be a good procedure. So that was my thought... when the protestants are true protestants there's no interest for us in fighting them, but if they're claiming to be protestants to join "the protestantic side" militarily to go against us, then we fight them. If they uphold the illusion of being protestants, so much better for us, because then the pope can't do anything but smile and thank us for having defeated some of the "protestantism" :evil:

[cegorach]

There is another factor you should consider:

Polish king already helped the Hapsburgs sending mercenary army in 1619 lifting the siege of Vienna, still Hapsburgs were very unpopular in Poland since they tried to enforce its elected candidate for a king in 1588 - so beeing cautious is wise. :san_wink:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, that's interesting. However, if the Swedish attack hits Poland first, I'm sure they'll be thankful for an alliance. Our benefit from it is clear in that we can then hopefully stop the Swedish army before it reaches German lands, and that two armies are stronger than one. My suggestion is that we go for the Polish alliance, but keep in mind that it might be broken at the most inappropriate time. But actually when I think about it the optimal thing seems to be to go for both 2 and 3, if possible.

I'm sorry, this is my first alternative history, so I don't know the exact rules. :sorry: Are we allowed to choose more than one option in cases where they aren't mutually exclusive?

[Franconicus]

Sorry Legio, I do not agree. We have to erase Protestantism! We need one empire with one religion. Everything else can only be a temporary, tactical compromise.

[King Kurt]

Looks like the begining of another great thread - what with rewriting WW2 history and helping King Stephen, how am I going to get any work done!

I say go with the Poles. Militarily they are strong , and they bring some contrasting troop types to the party. Their central European position also makes them strategically very important.:san_smiley:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sorry Legio, I do not agree. We have to erase Protestantism! We need one empire with one religion. Everything else can only be a temporary, tactical compromise.

Ok then, I'm in a giving mood today so I'll change my plans according to your wish :san_grin: But it'll make things much more difficult...

Either way my choice remains a combination of no. 2 and no. 3 or one of them if a combination is impossible...

[Kagemusha]

Great! A new alternate history!Wait, we are the Habsburgs,Aargh now i have to go to war against my Finish country men fighting for the Swedish King.:san_shocked: Hmm.. anyway, I choose the option number 3.~;)

[Kraxis]

Good to see people have a good sense of strategy.:san_grin:

To attack Denmark looks like an easy option, the Catholic armies should fairly easily win against the Danish field armies... or so we would believe, but the battle of Lüberger Heide was extremely close and was mainly lost because Christian had only weeks ahead fallen from the battlements of Rendsborg, and it seems lost part of his sanity as a result of the impact. Also Denmark was at the time riddled with fortifications and had a very strong fleet that the HRE has no chance of opposing propely, so it would be Jutland alone after problematic assaults and sieges. Not good at all, but it gets worse.

Denmark and Sweden are not exactly at war, but it could hardly be closer to it (as usual at the time), not only would an attack rid us of the chance to ally with either against the other, but it would in fact put both on the same side. Sweden would likely jump at the chance to 'save' Denmark and thus appear that much better.

Lastly, the attack into Jutland would bottle up important armies in an easily blockaded peninsula. If the Swedish finished up in Poland, or made a seperate peace they would be in a superb position to take Hamburg and Lübeck cutting off the HRE army in Jutland, and with the Danish (and possibly the Swedish) Navy keeping taps on the sea traffic the army would have to surrender at some point.

[Lord Winter]

The year is 1623

To my understanding: We are already part of the Catholic League - maybe even the leader - aren't we? So sides are clear. And our political goal is to regain the power and the unity of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, right? That means, whipe out protestantism!
That is basically the goal. Officially Maximillian of Baviria is the leader, but you are leader in all but name. I don't see any way of Ferdinand converting even for politics. he had to be one of the most conservative catholics out there.

@Leigo you could go with two options but it looks like you are out voted.

As for Sweden and the poles the only reason Gustavus hasn't invaded the HRE yet is because of his war in Poland. so we'll see how Sweden and Poland reacts. Thank you for all of your support
DoH

[Watchman]

Historically, Poland stayed the heck away from the war in Germany. They didn't really have any reason to get involved anyway, if only because military adventurism wasn't a big hit amongst the ruling class (who were doing pretty well as was, and busy dividing Ukraine) and the drawn-out mess didn't exactly offer very good expense-profit projections. And I don't think there was any love lost between the Habsburgs and the Polish Vasas either; the Poles had a long history of seeing off German expansionism...

As far as religious divides go, keep in mind that the patently Catholic French monarchs were only too happy to help Protestants, or for that matter anyone else, against their old (and also patently Catholic) Habsburg arch-fiends... although they spent most of the war providing financial support; when they finally joined in openly they had some catching-up to do in military matters (not having fought a major war in quite a while, and hence a tad behind the times), but were soon able to pretty much knock Spain out of the equation and cause considerable problems to Imperial regions in Western parts of Germany.

Invading the Netherlands would have been more than little pointless. The Spanish had been warring there for decades already, to rather little avail - the TYW was one of those periods when fortifications *really* counted, and tended to utterly frusrate many an ambitious campaign. Sending German troops there would merely have diverted resources from fighting the Emperor's domestic foes and bogged them down in the morass. Heck, despite having to maintain pressure on the Dutch front the Spanish Habsburgs were nonetheless perfectly capable of sending substantial troops and other resources to the aid of their German kinsmen anyway...

The Emperor could most likely have walked all over Denmark if he wanted to - indeed, I seem to recall there having been a brief skirmish between the Danes and the Imperials, which persuaded the former to remain uninvolved - but would then run into the exact same problem as the Swedes did late in the war when war broke out between them and the Danes. The hardened Swedish main field army in Germany, quick-marched to the Baltic, brushed aside all resistance with contemptuous ease... until they arrived at the shore. The thing is, the Danish "heartlands" were on the islands; and they were *the* naval superpower in the Baltic. Having a land army zillion times as strong as theirs didn't amount to zilch if you couldn't ship all those buggers over the straits in the face of the Danish navy...

In a sense the "teams" were rather set from the start of the war, and there was likely very little the Holy Roman Emperor could do to alter them. He was pretty much quaranteed the aid of his Habsburg kin in other realms, notably Spain and Austria, so much as their own issues (like the Spanish war in the Netherlands) allowed them to spare. The French Bourbons were pretty much quaranteed to happily support just about any enemy of the rival dynasty. The Swedish entry into the war, while not exactly quaranteed, was highly likely given the ambitions of its leaders and its rising stars; that that entry, should it happen, would be to the detriment of the Habsburgs, *was* a given, and the interests of the two dynasties were too diametrically opposed for there to be much possibility of "talking it out". The Danish were opportunists; mostly they were content to tax the trade passing through the straits, but weren't adverse to some military adventurism if they figured they could get away with it - both the Imperials and the Swedes had to divert armies to see off these ambitions on occasion. The Poles didn't really even care; I understand the reigning king would have been quite keen on meddling in the German war, but was bluntly overruled by the nobility who could see no point in such risky and expensive projects. The Dutch, well, they had their hands full holding off the Spanish, but other than that they made an absolute killing selling supplies to the foes of the Habsburgs... The English seem to have maintained a total hands-off approach to the Continental troubles.

And the political map of the Holy Roman Empire itself was an utter mess even at the best of times, with endless petty freetowns, baronies, sprawling fiefdoms, Papal holdings and God only knows what else with their monumental tangle of privileges, agreements, dues and so on making it hard to keep track of and steer in some common direction even when half of it wasn't in direct armed rebellion against the Emperor... Catholic lordlings tended to side with the Emperor, and Protestant ones usually sided with each other against him, but that wasn't even close to a given (many were only too happy to sit in the sidelines and try to pick the winning side) and the sheer naked political opportunism involved would have made Macchiavelli lift a quizzical eyebrow.

[cegorach]

With full knowledge of Polish internal and external situation I would choose option 3, but with some modifications:

1. Mutual help, but rather in the form of money for Poland - imperial tropps usually caused more problems than they solved and their forces marching through Poland would cause some anti-Hapsburg feelings, especially if you consider the appaling lack of discipline at that time.
In return some form of Polish 'mercenary legion' would be a good option - in similar way to 1680s when before the official Polish army arrived Lubomirski's mercenary troops were already engaged.

2. Poland is already at war vs. Sweden and there is a growing tension with Russia and the Ottomans. For this reason money would be good as soon as possible to prolong the conflict with Sweden.

3. Some diplomatic efforts in fending off French diplomacy trying to mediate and to encourage Swedes to invade Germany is required. Countering French efforts is required the most.

Of course if I can propose something like this. :san_wink:

Regards Cegorach

[Kraxis]

The Emperor could most likely have walked all over Denmark if he wanted to - indeed, I seem to recall there having been a brief skirmish between the Danes and the Imperials, which persuaded the former to remain uninvolved - but would then run into the exact same problem as the Swedes did late in the war when war broke out between them and the Danes. The hardened Swedish main field army in Germany, quick-marched to the Baltic, brushed aside all resistance with contemptuous ease... until they arrived at the shore. The thing is, the Danish "heartlands" were on the islands; and they were *the* naval superpower in the Baltic. Having a land army zillion times as strong as theirs didn't amount to zilch if you couldn't ship all those buggers over the straits in the face of the Danish navy...
Good analysis, similar to my own.:san_wink:
But you downplay the Batle of Lutter am Barenberg, it was a full battle and it was extremely close. It was indeed a Danish defeat, but it could as easily have gone the other way. Had that happened then who know what had happened... But it didn't and the Danish army was basically lost (mercenaries tend to not hang around after defeats).

[Lord Winter]

With your decision made you begin to speech: “I will go with the advice of my ally Maximillian of Bavaria, the Holy Roman Empire will seek an alliance with the ruler of Poland.”

Out the corner of your eye you see Maximillian smile. You study the reactions of the other electors. One in particular jumps out to you; the elector of Saxony looks frustrated; his lands are closest to the Danish boarder. Making a note to do something about him you listen to the rest of the electors argue out the vices and virtues of the alliance.

After a short debate the majority of the electors agree to carry out your plan. The meeting is dismissed upon the pretext that you will organize all the details. You now must decide the fine points of the alliance.

1. On how the negations will be handled.

A. Go your self, it would probably be the most efficient but it would leave you in a position where you could not be able to contact the Holy Roman Empire without some delay in the case of the pending crisis with the Protestants.

B. Send Maximillian, he is the head of the catholic league after-all and may carry more weight in the negations to join the league if you chose to go that way.

C. Send one of the other electors of the Holy Roman Empire, you may want Maximillian advise latter and you may not be able to spare yourself now.

2. On how to support Poland

A. Keep the alliance secret and only send money in the hope of prolonging the conflict with Sweden.
B. Incorporate them in to the catholic league; they would then be able to request soldiers and funds. You could maybe get more of the league to pay and not just the Holy Roman Empire.
C. Directly declare war against Sweden and send in soldiers in support. While you would probably need the soldiers latter, there is the hope that with the extra soldiers you could decisively defeat the Swedes in battle,


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Just a note historicly Denmark invades you in around 6 months so they have the majority of there forces ready and could very well invade if they saw a weakness or thought they could bribe someone to join there cause.

[IrishMike]

Sorry to join in this after the first round.

I would say that going in person would be most unwise with denmark still a considerable threat. Therefore it would be best to stay. I'd say option B with sending Maximillian would be best. It would give poland a sense of importance and perhaps help bolster them a bit.

Secondly I'd go option B in Incorporating them. If you go overboard it may cost you too much. If you don't help enough they feel disenfranchised and not be so helpful later on. So once again the middle route appears to be the best.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I don't know who to send, but going myself could be risky, for various reasons. But for 2, I suggest a new idea not mentioned (see at the bottom of post if you don't want to read all the following text).

Paying money in secret won't give us any credit for our helpfulness, and not score us a point in popularity with the Polish people. The Polish leaders could therefore, should they defeat the Swedish, use the money against us.

Incorporating the Polish into the catholic league strengthens the league militarily, but also unnerves the protestants, feeling their support being limited, and the majority of countries and people being against them in their ideological war. By incorporating them in the league, it could be possible to arrange for several to send aid to the Polish, and perhaps in some way get the pope to preach in favor of all true catholics to send at least something to aid the Polish in Poland. That would take a possible future conflict from the German lands, as well. But we don't want the pope to go too far and require all true catholics to send troops into Poland. We don't want troops there in case the Danish attack, or the by Dutch rallied rebels attack somewhere. Therefore, we must be careful in trying to convice others to join.

There are so many outside threats that one of them needs to be knocked out quickly. By strategical principle, the weakest should be dealt with first, to free up troops quickly for the other fronts/threats. Although the Swedish are probably one of the stronger, an offensive into Denmark is dangerous, for above mentioned reasons. The Dutch should be considered an enemy too. Because when I think about it, it's difficult to convince the catholic league nations to see a benefit in helping the empire against the Swedish if the Swedish seem too weak to be able to continue far further than Polish or German lands. If the conflict is carried out on German soil, it might even benefit some of them. So we can't trust our allies to the west. In fact, if we score popularity points in the right way, our most reliable ally could in fact even turn out to be Poland, despite earlier conflicts.

Directly declaring war on Sweden and trying some offensive move is dangerous, and may draw us sooner into a conflict which we would otherwise be able to avoid (unlikely) or at least postpone. But it's unlikely they will be done with the Polish quickly enough to send an offensive into German lands, and the sudden increase in strength of the opposition - and unity - would probably lower their morale a lot. The declaration should be made, but no military action immediately. We should start by aid in the form of money, or money in the form of a mercenary force.

An attack on the Dutch still seems reasonable IMO. As we didn't attack the Dutch earlier, we might have lost valuable time there. Having dealt with some of the Dutch would stop important trade that would have benefitted our enemies, and the Dutch also have little strength to oppose us offensively in counter-moves, should we need to withdraw most of our troops from the Dutch front (before having defeated the Dutch) and have to face the Swedish if their attack would come sooner than expected. Fortresses in the Netherlands are difficult to deal with, yes, but plundering can lure the enemy out of their fortresses. After all, the richess of the Dutch is the main problem, and some of their trading the problem that strenghtens our enemies. Although horrible and with severe consequences in popularity, I still support the idea of attacking the Dutch in a cruel manner with plundering and burning. The undisciplined soldiers won't be a problem in a war where plundering is one of the main ideas. We can then weaken a source of valuable things to our enemies, and make an example for protestants and rebel rallying attempts. But it all depends on how long it takes for the Swedish to deal with Poland and come to our lands. Ideally, we'd want to be ready with the Dutch before the Swedish come, but it isn't necessary. And I suspect money aid to Poland will delay the Swedish.

Hm, attacking the Swedish in Poland would threaten the Polish alliance, and leave the Dutch as a problem not yet dealt with, and the give Danish a more open northern front. Schorched earth would be a good policy against the Swedish in Poland, as they're far from home, but schorching the Polish earth isn't even to consider for popularity and practical reasons.

So I suggest attacking the Dutch to make an example (they're after all trying to rally Germans to aid their rebellion), score points with the pope (if we officially declare it a war against their protestantism), hurt a source of weapons, morale and rebelliousness and other things that could end up in the hands of our other enemies, and free up Spanish troops, while only sending money to the Polish, but sending that money openly (so we can take credit for it, to show what a defender of catholic faith we are - the Dutch war is a good explanation on why we can't send troops to Poland right away), and at the same time declaring war on Sweden, to show that we aren't the least scared of them (even though that might be a lie). Their declaration of war will come sooner or later anyway, and they're mostly tied up in Poland at the moment. If we do it first, we show that we have no respect for their armies, and it'll make them nervous in Poland, realizing the Polish aren't their only immediate opponent. If possible, at the same time make Poland a part of the catholic league. This alternative would be a good choice in both improving the morale situation and the military strategical position. We need the Spanish troops freed up so they can continue to be a threat for the French and British, and possibly even send aid to us later. We need some sort of breakthrough against the Dutch before the Swedish have done too much harm on the Polish, but such a breakthrough can be achieved through shocking amounts of plundering and other demoralizing actions in the early stages (ideally we need some really scary and unusual weapons, how about some nasty type of artillery?). At least a few forts will fall that way. We should of course offer nice ceasefire terms with them so they are conviced to surrender - and keep that promise should they surrender, in order to make the Polish and other allies trust our honor as keepers of promises. Then we should intercept the Swedish shortly before they reach German soil (we officially declare this action, when carried out, as in increase in our helpfulness towards our ally Poland, and an act in defense of the catholic faith). No need to intercept too early. If we fail a breakthrough in the Netherlands, we just leave the Spanish to continue. The Spanish can hold out defensively without us, especially if you offensive inflicted enough defeats on the Dutch to weaken them. When we're done with the Swedish we can continue with the Dutch if needed. The Danish threat is smaller here, as we have our troops closer to Denmark if going for the Dutch.

So here's my choices:
- send someone, but not myself, to discuss terms with the Polish. i.e. B or C. Edit: ColdKnight is right, B it is.
- declare war on the Dutch, make the Polish part of catholic league, send money (openly) to them, and declare war on Sweden (only nominally, and carry out no military actions against them). (i.e. I choose a new option D)

[Ironside]

1.B and 2.A

I don't think the Poles would be exactly overjoyed by getting incorperated. Same with giving away Imperial troops and that will weaken our current defence too and with the Danes looking aggresive, it's not the smartest move.

At this point I don't think the Swedes were considered a large threat anyway.

[AntiochusIII]

1 B and 2 B

Maximillian of Bavaria, as the nominal leader of the Catholic League, would prove to be an excellent negotiator for this upcoming negotiation. Besides, he seems pleased with the choice. The Polish won't be offended by the negotiator choice, either, since he is supposedly an important figure. Hopefully a successful, favorable deal will be made. You yourself can't be tied up far away from the heated locations and other electors won't have that much interest in the alliance.

Even though the Polish won't be that happy to be in the Catholic League (and thus involved in the grand scheme of Europe which they'd rather avoid) we need to declare ourselves as full supporters of Poland, while not actually support them fully. :san_wink: As the Holy Roman Empire (and the Hapsburg), you have much in terms of duty. One of these, unfortunately, is a religious obligation for the Catholics. Money alone in secret won't do you any good in the diplomatic scene, even though it will no doubt slow down Swedish advance. Fully support them with troops would only annoy the Polish and leave you vulnerable to attacks by your many enemies and vassals.

That Dutch invasion idea seems interesting. If it happens, it will be hard, though, as the Dutch are experienced and well-fortified from their long struggle against the Spanish, and the German princes might in fact rebel against you early if you press the initiative too hard.

[Mr White]

It's quite clear that we should send Maximillian for obvious reasons. What he should offer is a different matter. As many pointed out politics and image are very important so secret aide won't help us much and could even work against us. Sending our own men in Poland isn't an option either as this will anger the polish population.

If we want to be seen by the world as the protectors of catholisism, help has to be offered. I would offer the poles some mercenary troops, as mentioned above, under Polish command of course and the promise of support of our own troops if the Polish King would find it necessary. In this way the whole world can see that the HRE is willing to help Catholic countries with no strings attached. In the worst case scenario: Poland stands on the verge of defeat and calls upon our oath to help them defend against the 'evil' Swedes. In case of misbehaving German soldiers the Polish population can't but blame their king as he specifically asked for our troops to come to Poland.

We could be on the verge of an all out war between catholicism and protestantism. How we are seen by other nations is now of the utmost importance. Doing nothing, or appearing to do nothing, isn't an option as this will make us seem weak, undecisive or indifferent.
Immediate military action will portray us as aggressive and a threat. This will isolate us from our allies and potential allies. The possibility of aggression against the HRE will also rise.
Offering help to all who need it and ask for it ( within reason of course) will help us build our image as champion of the catholic values. This will secure support if we ourselves should need it.

[Kraxis]

Maximillian and the money...

Can't leave the border open, and open war with Sweden would be too dangerous now. Devide and conquer! By keeping Sweden tied up in Poland, Denmark should be fairly easily contained when it attacks (I don't like that we have been informed Denmark will attack, Ferdinand didn't know it, so we shouldn't know it for certain).

[Franconicus]

Agreed! Let's contain Denmark!

[Rodion Romanovich]

But what if the Danish hold their attack until the Swedish are through with Poland, and there's a two-pronged assault? The Dutch are still causing problems with their revolt instigation and by tying up our Spanish allies, who are further threatened by England. In the worst case, all three enemies will strike at the same time! I still favor an attack on the Dutch while trying to use deception to keep the Swedish and Danish think we're stronger than we are. The Swedish can't hurt us until Poland is down anyway, and the Danish have too weak ground forces to be able to advance far should they attack now. As I see it, waiting without doing anything can only make the situation get worse. An attack on the Dutch would probably improve the situation a lot. Most of their troops have been drawn to face the Spanish, so it might be possible to advance quite far without running into stronger resistance. A breakthrough there would put us in a position where we can demand their forces to surrender, but we should at the same time offer acceptable terms that recognizes the sovereignity of the 17 provinces, but limits protestantism and trade with our enemies, and gives us control over some key forts in the area for the coming few decades to be able to prevent them from counter-offensives in the nearest future.

On the other hand, if we fail to break through and suffer defeats, we can just retreat to our own territory - the Dutch can't fight both the Spanish and us offensively. We might even tempt the Danish to attack us before the Swedish are done with Poland.

Both of these possiblities would be very useful.

The worst possible scenario that could come from an attack on the Dutch would be that the Dutch would defeat us greatly, and thus gain prestige and manage to rally more provinces to their rebellion, while at the same time Denmark and Sweden strikes. But the risks for that scenario are minimal IMO. The money to Poland will delay the Swedish, and when the Swedish hear that we support Poland, and could theoretically send our own troops to support the Polish, they'll probably get nervous and make mistakes in their desire to breakthrough quickly in Poland.

We must attack the Dutch! :charge: If we just offer surrender terms acceptable to both the Spanish and the Dutch, there's a great chance that conflict in the region will end, and the prestige of us and our Spanish allies will be kept. And we have a stronger nation that can resist the infidels ~:) to the north and east...

[IrishMike]

The Dutch Option needs to be explored much more than just implusive action. Also how much would we commit to the attack with Denmark threatening. Do we have any large defensive fortifications to halt Denmark with minimal troops if they attack? If we are successful though many resources and money could be freed to throw against Sweeden and eventually Denmark.

[Kraxis]

Viable complaints Legio, but the 'fact' is that the Danish and Swedish kings dislike each other so badly that they are racing to the head of the war. They will not work together unless forced to, and their disunity will cause them to try to head the other off.

In history it was the Danish king Christian IV that managed to get the time and money to wage war first. It took some more time before Gustav II Adolph could turn his attention to the west.
Had Christian been bright he would have worked together with Gustav, but as it happened he himself wanted to lead the Protestants, and so did Gustav.

But force a war on either and the other will happily jump in and appear to be some saviour. Imagine the propaganda coup either would get from rescuing the other from their common enemy. It would help a whole lot in determining the leader.

[Lord Winter]

(I don't like that we have been informed Denmark will attack, Ferdinand didn't know it, so we shouldn't know it for certain).
Yes that was introduced very badly. It is hard to stay out of the debate sometimes. Looking back it should of seemed like that therestrong suspicions that the next attack would come from Denmark or another nation in the league. Thanks for the feed back :bow:
DoH

[Kagemusha]

1.B and 2.A.Trip to Poland could be hazardious to your health.~;) Also Poles have the menpower to fight with the Swedes.But they need money.Its better to have the war in Poland then in Germany.Swedes have a great army,but they cant bare too heavy losses.So lets support Poland with money and prepair our own troops to the battle ahead.

[Lord Winter]

You decide to send Maximillian. He will carry enough influence with the polish were they wont feel shunned, while you can deal with more important matters in the Empire.
Before leaving Maximillian pulls you aside:

“The world is not a safe place anymore and you are leaving your self defenseless you need to raise a private army. With the Dutch, the Danes, France and England threaten us we need all the men we can get.”

Turning away he walks down the hall.

The next week Maximillian departs with an escort of 40 men towards Poland, bringing with him enough funds to bribe the Poles if necessary. Many of the Electors however think that this is a waste of time. “Why give our gold to Poland, when we have four other nations that are poised to invade,” they ask. The politics of the Empire are never simple and many an emperor had been overthrown when he had failed to keep the German Princes in check.

Meanwhile you have other matters to attend too. The Spanish are besieging the great Dutch fortress of Breda. Cardinal Richelieu has been appointed to the Royal council of France and is now directing an aggressive anti Hapsburg policy. Maybe Maximillian is right you may need a private army. An empire has never fallen because someone was over cautious. There are some funds coming from your lands which may be put to use for an army. Now all that is needed is a commander.

You begin to research the idea and come up with a list of men who will rise at your request and of course, a bit of funding.

1. Albrechct Von’ Wallenstein has already supported you in your past wars against the Fredrick. Wallenstein has offered to pay the cost to raise the army as long as you pay the upkeep. Rumors of fraud and a craving for power surround him.

2. Hire the Belgian general Karel Bonaventura Buquoy, he has proven himself loyal as the former commander under the old emperor Mathiais. It would however be more expensive since you would have to pay for the whole recruiting process.

3. Gottfried Heinrich Pappenheim is currently in the service of the Cathloic league but could probably be spared if the right of amount of money was paid. Pappenheim is one of the best calvary generals of the catholic league but the league may see it as a sign of aggression if you take him from there service.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
@Coldknight there are some fortifications on the danish boarder to the point were you could hold for a couple weeks with retivly few troops.

[Flavius Clemens]

I've been following with interest, though I haven't posted yet, but having read the latest I think it has to be option 2. Proven loyalty is worth the price - especially when the politics are complex and allegiances can can shift. Von Wallenstein's moitives must be suspect, and no sense in risking offence to the Catholic League if there is a good alternative in Buquoy.

[AntiochusIII]

Agreed. Wallenstein will not benefit you in the long run. Better build an army now which you can use and trust instead of having to get rid of it in the future.

The Catholic League's support for you is vital to your empire's success. We should not risk incurring needless injuries on the relations. You are already its practical leader, why weaken it for your benefit?

Choice 2. Like Flavius said, loyalty is worth the price.

[IrishMike]

Yes by far option 2 is the safest way. We need somebody we can count on later when things might become tough.

[Franconicus]

2) A Belgium General for the Dutch operations! :idea2:
Wallenstein is not as bad as you all may think. He is a genious and he is able to raise abd feed troops out of nothing! But that is exactly what we need in case we get in trouble. So give him respect, maybe more land and a cousin to marry and keep him as reserve.

[Rodion Romanovich]

2) A Belgium General for the Dutch operations! :idea2:
Wallenstein is not as bad as you all may think. He is a genious and he is able to raise abd feed troops out of nothing! But that is exactly what we need in case we get in trouble. So give him respect, maybe more land and a cousin to marry and keep him as reserve.

I agree, no. 2 but still keep Wallenstein happy

[Kagemusha]

I disagree.Option 1. Do we want to have ourselves a lapdog or a General.We are facing one of the greatest,if not greatest military mind of his time Gustavus Adolphus.What we need is a military genius.Wallenstein.

[King Kurt]

I say go for Wallenstein as well. Rumours of fraud and a lust for power - sounds like our sort of guy!! hey this is the 30 year's war! Belgium is famous for chocolate not generals.~:cheers:

[Mr White]

Belgium is famous for chocolate not generals.~:cheers:

Chocolate and beer my friend, chocolate and beer

[Flavius Clemens]

Chocolate and beer my friend, chocolate and beer
and with him under our tutelage, by the time we've finished, generals too! ~:)

[King Kurt]

Chocolate and beer my friend, chocolate and beer
How could I overlook Stella Artois - how remiss of me!!
They also gave the world the idea of having mayo with chips - a surprisingly good combination.~:cheers:

[Mr White]

please don't get me started on the whole french fries thingy. Just because some Americans saw some Walloons ( French speaking Belgians) making fries they thought it was a French invention.

And on the beer thing, Stella is just one of our beers. Try some Leffe or Duvel. Or voted the best beer in the world (but almost impossible to get because it is brewed by monks who only brew enough to live off) West-Vleteren. No offence but until you drink a real Belgian beer and not a normal ale you don't know what good beer is.

[Kraxis]

Argh, I would have voted for Wallenstein. He was a most gifted general and was really only matched when Sweden entered the war. If the war is going to be as tough as we suspect he would have enough to do than scheme against you.

Mr. White give me a sharp bitter Pilsner anyday over a the overly sweet liquid fruit brews...
A beer is only as good as the taster thinks. Just like truffles, and Beluga kaviar is not tasty to most of us, but some it is.

[AntiochusIII]

Very wellm I am convinced, please disregard my vote in the first post, though I'll vote an inconsequential one here for Wallenstein. I suppose we can take the risk, though I suggest keeping a very close eye on him.

What would be the details of the deal? About the extend of Wallenstein's soldiers' "rights?" It might affect the looting and foraging and such.

[cegorach]

I would opt for no 1 - Wallenstein, mostly since he is a genious when it comes to recruiting and maintaining large armies. Still I would keep him under controll, constantly.

Another thing - I think that if the previous option is kept in good way i.e. less formal alliance with Poland and some 'real' money for recruitment etc. Sweden can be eliminated from the 30 years war completely, in fact Gustavus Adolphus can never leave its territory dying somewhere ( he was wounded twice, and almost captured twice as well during the war vs. Poland).

The confined, swamp-like ( so called Zulawy in Vistula's mounth were very similar to the Netherlands - in fact Dutch settlers and refugees were living here) area of Royal Prussia can become the grave of the Swedish army.

Without numerous German mercenaries Swedes cannot even dream of winning a decisive battle and by keeping them busy in Germany you can cut offf this source.

BTW Maybe my impression is wrong, but it seems that some of you believe that overwhelming Poland is a question of time.. :no:

Sweden alone cannot even dream of it, in fact very limited victory in the war vs. Poland ( 1625-29) was pretty suprising and came as a result of numerous off-battle reasons including French diplomacy.
Accoring to the Swedish sources I have read Sweden lost more than 40 000 dead during this war comparing to the 50 000 lost during the whole 30-years war ! Of course the seconfd number doesn't possibly include the losses among the German mercenaries, but still it was a hard war and a standstill in military terms. :wall:

Regards Cegorach :book:

P.S. I need someone from Finland to do few easy translations for Pike and Musket mod - any volunteers ?

[Psiloi]

The spanish experience with the dutch show that is not a good option. LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix has proposed good plans against the dutch but the surprise always jump: because is a slow war, another enemy can attack when we are weakened, and we can lost an effort of years in few days. Don't think that a combined force of imperial and spanish armies can break the dutch resistence, they are of iron, their lines of defence are a very strong combination of rivers, dikes, canals and fortress, and the lost of a few fortress is not important for they, as you see, when Spinola taked Breda it was irrelevant for the war, and Breda was one of the most important fortress!! Another example, when Louis XIV attack to the dutch the french army was defeated because the dutch broke the dikes, and the army of the Sun was by far more powerful than the armies of the TYW . For defeat to the dutch, we need a fleet (for brown water and for blue water), and the spanish are weak in that front (powerful, but they need cover thousand milles of sea, weak in the northern seas)
I can see to Wallestein and Spinola lost their time in a mudy swamp.

The best option is Poland.

[Lord Winter]

A messenger is sent out to Karel Bonaventura Buquoy to offer the position of commander of the imperial forces. Within a week you hear back from the messenger that Buquoy will meet with you by the end of the month.

Meanwhile you receive news from Maximillian that the negations are mixed. The Poles seem open minded yet still they are suspicious of your intentions.

Three weeks latter. Personally going out to greet him you reevaluate your decision. Was this the right general? But in war you can not go back once you’re committed down one path.

You meet with Buquoy the next day. Tilly the commander of the forces of the Catholic league is camped outside the Lower Saxon Circle, an area loyal to Christen IV. Tensions are high and you begain to think the army may be needed soon.

“My Emperor, it is good to see you again, it has been along time since White Mountain”, Buquoy stated, opening the meeting.

“Indeed it has, and now we stand against an alliance of nations determined to pursue our destruction. I need your service as a general, you have served me faithfully before. I pay well; at the end of this you will have new lands and fortunes.”

“Standard terms?”

You pause to think, the standard terms he is talking about is the right to plunder any hostile area once the order for invasion has been issued along with your financial support.

“Yes”, you respond plundering could cut the cost and worst case you can give orders to leave the province untouched.

“Good, I accept, now how many men do you want me to raise”

Now is where you decide your strength. A bigger army would be more powerful yet have more complicated supply issues and upkeep. Were a small army would be much cheaper.

1. Raise 15,000 men a small army which would properly take up around 1/4 of your treasury yearly to raise and pay upkeep.
2. Raise 20,000 men an medium size army which could pose a threat to any germen princes and some national armies. Upkeep would be around 3/8 of your treasury
3. Raise 30,000 men taking up 2/3rds of your treasury. This could pose a large threat to any army if commanded by the right general.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
there are still some problems with that the conversation is nowere near were i wanted it to be, but i couldnt improve it in any other way.

[Rodion Romanovich]

No. 2 seems enough if we pursue a defensive strategy. Then we can fill up with mercenary forces in a matter of a few months if needed, and there's no need to use more money than necessary at this stage. No. 1 is too small IMO, we need regulars too, no. 3 seems a little too much for the treasury, especially as we're already sending money to support the Polish.

If we however choose some offensive operations in the Netherlands no. 3 seems good. The Dutch regions are rich and could possibly give some money in return from plundering, but now that we've decided to let the general and soldiers have everything they can find and plunder, the no. 3 option would mean a severe blow to finances and possibly also remove the possibility of hiring any larger force of mercenaries later. The question then seems to be: 1. should we carry out any operations against the Dutch? and 2. would an offensive against the Dutch with large parts of a 20k man army be enough to achieve any results at all? 3. is our fleet good enough for the type of war that would await in the Netherlands, should we decide to attack? 4. are our forts along the Dutch border strong enough to hold (without too many men) a Dutch counter-offensive if we would be forced to withdraw and face enemies on another front (for example Denmark)?

If it's ok I'll leave the decision on whether I'll choose 2 or 3 until I've found more information about our fleet, the possibilites of an offensive against the Dutch, and whether the others would support my plan. But IMO 15k men is in any case too little.

[King Henry V]

I would go forr no. 2. 20,000 is a standard sized army for the day, not too small to be overwhelmed and not too large that it will drain your country of all your ressources.

[Kraxis]

Agreed, with #2 we get both men and keep significant amounts of money. That is important when we don't really know what we will face, or even where we will face it.

[Flavius Clemens]

I'd second option 2 - at this stage we need to keep some flexibility, and committing more of the treasury would be a risk, but we do need enough of an army to make an impression.

[Rodion Romanovich]

After some consideration I decide to settle with no. 2. Even if we go to war with the Dutch no. 2 is better than no. 3. So there's actually no urgent need for any more information for making this decision.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with the guys above option 2.

[AntiochusIII]

Good reasons. Let's follow the path of the Buddha and go with moderation: No.2. Standard and not overwhelming, flexible, but not weak. In cases of danger we can always hire more.

[Ludens]

I think this question should not be asked alone. To decide how powerful an army must be we need to know what we are going to do with it, but that seems undecided as yet.

[Franconicus]

Good arguments!
I go for 1). Keep the army as small as possible. We haven't decided what we need it for. If we attack anyone we will have allies and mercs. What we really need is money! So keep the army as small as possible.

Maybe this war is one by the person who can afford an army at the end!

[Lord Winter]

I am changing the rules so that there is no post limit for deciding which choice to go with so feel free to post even if your not in the first three.

[Lord Winter]

“Around 20,000 men, I want enough funds to hire mercenaries if need be,” You reply.

“A fitting number my lord enough to crush the heretics and finally purify Christianity, with the help of the catholic league.”

“Be worn destroying the heretics will still be difficult at best”
“I am always careful. With your permission my emperor I have other matters to attend to”

“Dismissed”, you answer.

Slowly but surly your army is built over the months. Your treasury takes a large hit as you pay the cost to raise your army, Frustrations in Poland emerge as Maximillian reports that they refuse to form an alliance unless if you personally meet with the polish king.

Rumors surround the country side of France, Mansfeldt, a renowned mercenary captain, is rumored to be raising a army for the English.

Mean while the Danes are trying to rally some of the German Princes in the Lower Saxon circle. A grave thing especially if they succeed.

You now much decide.

1) On the Poles
A. Go your self, You could finally secure the alliance that you feel you need. The only worry is that the nobles might take it as a sign of weakness.
B. Insist on Maximillian finishing the negations, you risk losing the poles cooperation but they could be made to decide.
C. Call Maximillian back and end any negations the price might be too much.

2) On the Germen Princes
A. Outlaw any Germen prince negating with the Danes, It would be harsh but it may be necessary.
B. Demand Denmark stop on threat of war. War will come any way since Christian is the proclaimed champion of Protestantism.
C. Do nothing

--------------------------------------
Sorry this one took so long, Real life had kept me busy with the end of semester and all.

[King Kurt]

1 C Do we really need these upity Poles - they will fight the Swedes anyway, so snub them - that will get them to the table when they need our help. Any way, cash is getting short - better it was spent at home.

2 A Time to whip these minor Princes into shape - let's have a little iron hand in iron glove.~:cheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

1 C Do we really need these upity Poles - they will fight the Swedes anyway, so snub them - that will get them to the table when they need our help. Any way, cash is getting short - better it was spent at home.

2 A Time to whip these minor Princes into shape - let's have a little iron hand in iron glove.~:cheers:

I agree with 1C 2A. 2A might except the reasons mentioned abgove also show the princes that the Danes aren't trustworthy as allies, or alternatively it'll force Denmark to attack us to show they're trustworthy allies. In the former case we score, in the latter case we also score - we don't have to worry too much about Danes in a land war, and hopefully the danish will weaken themselves so much that they won't be back in in a long time. It's a good way of avoiding a coordinated attack between several protestantic countries later, with the Swedish or Danish stepping in to help the other and appear as a savior. 2B - going against the Danes with threat of war - would be an empty threat as they know we can't hurt their heartlands on the islands. Empty threats will just weaken the respect for us.

[Flavius Clemens]

1 C - Can't risk being away negotiating with the Poles while the situation is heating up, need to be at the centre. And if they haven't agreed with Maximillian yet there seems little point in leaving him to continue with the discussions - we don't want people to assume they can just tie up our time with meaningless negotiations - eventually they have to make up their mind.

2 A - Assert our authority over the princes. Either a or b could end up with war against the Danes and princes, (and opting for C would be a complete surrender of authority) but a seems better at reducing the Danes' chance to gain allies.

[Lord Winter]

Not sure if this will influence any of your decisions but Christen V is a Prince of the empire.

[AntiochusIII]

No, it won't. :2thumbsup: A traitor, be it prince or emperor, is a traitor all the same.

While I'd rather choose 1B for the negotiations with the Poles, still waiting to see how It'd go, Maximilian is needed to return to gather the Bavarian forces for your support. This campaign needs to be done quickly lest it escalates too far, so we would require all the fists we have. Call him back: 1C.

2A: Let there be war. If Denmark is too well-fortified to be attacked directly, lure the cunning Danes out. Take this opportunity and solve some of the quagmire of the Imperial administrations, too -- after conquering each rebellious prince's territory, of course. A United Holy Roman Empire is something Europe hadn't see for centuries, and would be formidable indeed. Right now, too many taxes flow into the princes' coffers, and too many souls swear the wrong oath of loyalty. If we bring them back to the fold, we are unstoppable.

[Franconicus]

1) On the Poles

C. Call Maximillian back and end any negations the price might be too much.

2) On the Germen Princes

B. Demand Denmark stop on threat of war. War will come any way since Christian is the proclaimed champion of Protestantism.

[Lord Winter]

You sigh it seems that war can no longer be delayed. The Danes have interfered with your authority before, but this time they have stepped to far. You cannot let them usurper your authority anymore so you call for writing materials and write out an edict:

Hence forth all sovereign princes of the empire found dealing with the Danes will be outlawed. The Empire demands a halt on all diplomatic activity on the part of Denmark.
Frederiand II
Holy Roman Emperor, Elector of Bohemia, Archduke of Styria, and King of Hungray

On the whole Germen princes hate it when the Emperor interferes, and this time proves to be no exception. The Lower Saxon Circle are enraged and makes clear that they no longer consider you there liege. As if on cue Denmark declares war to “liberate” Germany of your rule.

Meanwhile Count Tilly request permission to move into the Lower Saxon Circle it would bring the standard devastation of war it could be worth it in the face of a
possibility crush the Rebels.

The recruitment of your forces is not quite finished, but the 16,000 already raised could be made ready to move once supplies are dealt with. But the month in the half march means that there won’t be much time to do anything but find winter quarters before the cold snows of December fall.

The Henistic league is a matter of concern. Should they side with the rebels it would constitute a serious threat. Your advisers however, are confident that a hefty bribe can stop any Henistic interest in this war.

There are mercenaries available for hire in the region. Your treasury is limited but if you decide to carry out the bribe you could realistically hire 2,000-3,000 troops instead of the 7,000-10,000 mercenaries you could currently sustain now.

1) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross
B. Don’t cross

2) The movement of your army
A. Wait for the supplies to be arrange then order Buquoy to the Lower Saxon circle to support Tilly. The result of the war is not going to be changed with a few weeks delay.
B. March out immediately and live off the land while the supplies are arranged farther ahead.
C. Keep the army in reserve, After all there is still the French and English to be worried about.

3) On the Henistic League
A. Send an diplomat and try to convince the Henistic league that they have nothing to gain in the war. (no bribes or blackmail)
B. Send a diplomat to bribe the league to stay neutral.
C. Go your self
D. Send Maximillian

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
A. Hire 500 Greek light Calvary, Greek light Calvary are considered some of the best in the world and will certainly help against the Swedes, if war comes.
B. Hire 1,000 Spanish mercenaries, The Spanish Tercio are some of the best trained infantry in the world.
C. Hire 1,000 Swiss pike-men, Very well trained infantry they are well worth there cost in the face of Calvary.
D. Hire 700 germen Calvary pistolers. Good Calvary but most of your Calvary force is similar.
E. Hire 2,000 germen pikemen, Even thou there less experienced then the Swiss, there still soild pikemen at a low cost.

[Knight Templar]

1A If Saxonian duke is not punished, other electrors could also turn back.
2A
3B it's not wise to have one more enemy if it can be avoided
4B and A. Well trained and disciplined army can be key to victory in any battle.

[King Henry V]

I would cross into the Lower Saxon Circle. These impudent Saxons need to be taught a lesson, so that they may think twice before defying His Imperial Majesty. However, it must be remembered that it is the princes', not the people's fault, so I advise against living off the land. However, this problem need to be dealt with, so it will have to be delayed for supplies to arrive.
I presume you refer to the Hanseatic League, as I have found no results on Google for Henistic League.
The Hanseatic League is on its last legs and has been in decline ever since the 16th century. It is imploding, Holland and England are fierce competitors, and their southern trade routes have been threatened by the Turks. I suggest therefore that the Emperor goes himself to Lübeck to talk with the Hanseatic League, and make it clear that though the Empire has no wish for war with the most venerable league, but should they oppose his illustrious majesty during the coming campaign against the rebellious Saxons, then he will have no choice but to wage war against the Hanse, with all the consequences that may entail. Lübeck is also near to where the real action will be taking place.
For the mercenaries, I would hire the German pikemen and the Greek cavalry, as numbers (twice the size in this case) are sometimes more important than experience.

[AntiochusIII]

What are the Spanish mercenaries? Are they swordsmen, pikemen, or gunmen? What are their strengths?

1A: The Emperor is supreme. Anyone who is against him seeks death and punishment. Let there be war, I say.

2A: Though the nobles have rebelled, Saxony is still an Imperial territory, so I'd rather have supplies prepared than pillage the land. After all, look at what the real war did to the real Germany...

3C: I agree with King Henry, the Hanseatic League isn't the power that it once was. They should be wise to support us, especially since your presence will force their decision immediately. Should they rise up against us, the new army would still be in the area for a punitive campaign against them.

4...not sure yet, because I don't know what the Spanish troops are...

However, I'd like to recruit:

A, the Greek mercenaries will provide excellent light cavalry as reserve, tactical maneuvers, skirmish, and reconnaissance.

This one not sure yet...but C would be my choice if the Spanish aren't more useful. The Swiss has a reputation, tradition, and martial prowess of centuries behind them: in battle, routs are the cause of most deaths and defeats. The Germans might not be so inclined to fight their countrymen compare to the professional Swiss forces. And I don't think we need more cavalry than we already do. The Greeks and what we've already raised would probably do fine.

Should Swedish cavalry comes, they will face a worthy foe in them.

[Kraxis]

Tilly is a good general... And he is willing to fight for you currently. Let him go.
1A

Since Tilly will be making trouble up there and waving the Imperial flag for you, there is hardly any need for the Imperial army currently. It can wait until it is ready, no need to risk it in the winter and understrength. Keep it at 2C.

The League... Well, their money might help, but their fleet might help even more against Denmark and Sweden (while Denmark is the strongest, Sweden is not to be trifled with either on the waves). Send Maxi since he is doing nothing at the moment. 3D

Ah the mercs... I haven't understood exactly how many we can hire since obviously they cost different amounts.
But is clear the Greek lights are important, so get those, but besides them we need punch! And that means numbers. Get the German pikemen, they are cheap but should still be good enough, and in time when we have plundered Saxony we could hire the Swiss. Not to forget that large numbers of pikes will help a great deal against the Swedish cavalry, letting our own cavlry win.
So it is 4A and E

[King Kurt]

On the whole - I agree with Kraxis's analysis. My only disagreement - I would for 1,000 Spanish as opposed to 2,000 German pike - I think 1,000 quality troops are better than 2,000 OK ones.~:cheers:

[Franconicus]

Here is my decision:
1) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross
We have to show them who is their master!

2) The movement of your army
C. Keep the army in reserve,
This is not a sprint, this is a marathon.

3) On the Henistic League
D. Send Maximillian

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
I would prefer to save the money and hire none at all. Is this an option?
If not then take:
E. Hire 2,000 germen pikemen, Even thou there less experienced then the Swiss, there still soild pikemen at a low cost.
Number counts. And they are Germans, so our army will be more homogeneous. However, it will be harder to supply them!
And the Greek cavalry!

[King Kurt]

2) The movement of your army
C. Keep the army in reserve,
This is not a sprint, this is a marathon.
[B]


Franc

Glad to see you are paying attention to my posts in other threads!!

[Franconicus]

It is always good to quote great persons! :bow:

I forgot to mention: we must get information what is going on in other countries. Are they hiring mercs, are the armies ready?

[Kraxis]

On the whole - I agree with Kraxis's analysis. My only disagreement - I would for 1,000 Spanish as opposed to 2,000 German pike - I think 1,000 quality troops are better than 2,000 OK ones.~:cheers:
Well, against Denmark we will need numbers. We are simply too even in strength. We have likely the edge with generals, but they have the troops. Good generals with lesser troops almost always beat lesser generals with better troops.
Besides, we will need the pikes later against Sweden. The more troops their cavalry can't attack easily the better for us. The Spanish troops will get eaten for lunch by the Swedish cavalry (the Greeks won't be enough to counter them). Not good if they are going to be important to us.
Besides the Germans are still good (not some kind of levy) just not as good as the Swiss. And personally if it comes down to the difference in will the battle is likely already lost for us.
Also Germans will likely be more willing to fight invaders than Spanish or Swiss.

[Lord Winter]

There have been some misunderstandings, the elector of Saxony him self is not in rebellion (he is Protestant thou). It is just an area by Saxony know as the lower Saxon circle.

The Spanish mercenary are a elite muskets and pikes, along with some sword and buckler infantry.
@Franconicus Doing nothing is always an option

As for information on other armies there is rumors that the English are raising an army, The Danes have an army of around 20,000 now and are rapidly recruiting with the support of the rest of the LSC.

[Kraxis]

My points stand... The Spanish seems to be too few to properly form a 'small' army of their own. Either arm will be too weak to do it's job. And with Denmark rapidly increasing it's strength we need to follow suit with numbers at least. Solid pikes always anchor the line well.

[King Kurt]

My points stand... The Spanish seems to be too few to properly form a 'small' army of their own. Either arm will be too weak to do it's job. And with Denmark rapidly increasing it's strength we need to follow suit with numbers at least. Solid pikes always anchor the line well.
I assume that we are adding to the 7-10,000 mercanaries we already have. I still think a 1,000 strong tercio is desirable over 2,000 average pikes - numbers only work if they don't run away! Also the mixed nature of the tercio - pikes, muskets and sword and buckler men - is more versatile. As for the swedes - I would worry more about their infantry and volley firing than their cavalry - not that their cavalry is to be sniffed at mind you.
The debate on numbers vs quality is always keen and close - it is just that my feeling is always for quality over quantity.~:cheers:

[Kalle]

I dont believe 1000 men is enough to form a tercio??

Anyways, the Swedes excelled at taking down these cumbersome inflexible formations and adding more of that will not help if its the Swedes we worry about, doesnt matter if its spanish or germans forming the tercio.

Gustavus II Adolphus won most of his international fame through the battle of Breitenfeld where he proved the spanish school of fighting obsolete.

Of course we wouldnt know this if we roleplay us back in time but with hindsight we know it and if hindsight is ok to use then we need to recruit something else or develop our battlefieldtactics.

The Danes are not to be taken lightly either. They still are ranked as baltic power nr 1 and are rich due to the rather newly recieved "Älvsborgs lösen" (payed by sweden with great effort) and the cashcow of "öresundstullen".

Kalle

[Kraxis]

'Øresundstolden' thank you.~;p

The Germans aren't bad, just not as good as the Swiss.
I'm normally a sucker for quality, but our regular army should be good enough. We just need strength in fairly good numbers to make sure we are not going to be outnumbered and thus easily outflanked.
We have to assume that Denmark goes for quality, but with less impressive commandship their best bet is the most simple way of winning fast, overlapping. We must stop that.

And while I couldn't remember it, there was something that had been nagging me about the Spanish, and it is likely what Kalle said, the outdatedness of their system. And I said before that 1000 would be too few for a proper tercio.

[Ironside]

And while I couldn't remember it, there was something that had been nagging me about the Spanish, and it is likely what Kalle said, the outdatedness of their system. And I said before that 1000 would be too few for a proper tercio.

Well the tercio still rules supreme at the current time IIRC. The numbers is still an issue though.

1A
Cross. Not attacking won't gain anything as it's doubtful that the rebels will have a change of heart and it's better to strike now than after they've prepared.

2C
Better check what the enemy will do as you can't really use it yet and summon it together will deplete it by default (diseases). Tilly is up there anyway.

3D
Poor Maximillian running around like this. Simply keeping them away from the war should be enough and the cost/benefit ratio for bribing seems too high in this case.

4 A and E
Good harrasing cav is always useful, especially if the enemy isn't used to them. And a large number of decent quality pikes is quite useful.

[Psiloi]

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

Historically the division of our game in "spears, swords..." with the swords eat spear without problems is not true. At the beginning of the XVI century the spanish had swordsmen (rodeleros), but by 1550 the rodeleros (and the halberdiers) dissapeared; the Pikemen with sword could assume the role of universal shock units.

The regular Tercio had 3000 men, but, there were many tercios with only 1000 men, curiously the perfect Tercio that we need was fighting in Germany at 1622: the Tercio of Lombardía http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/organisationUK.html with 1175 men in 16 companies of 83 men. We should think that the numbers of weapon was the standard by that time in the spanish army: 30% pikemen and 60% gunmen (plus officers)

As we see, the deployment of the troops was in the XVII century a centre of pikemen and only two "mangas" of gunmen (four in the XVI century)

The tercio of 1601 (the entire army of Flandes, only spanish)

6000 men

10% officers
33,4 % Pikemen
35'5 % Arquebusiers
20% Musketeers

A tercio of 1630 (5.4 Evolution of the tactic of the Tercios in the XVII century) http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TactiqueUk.html had

370 Pikemen
120 Arquebusiers
550 Musketeers


Our Tercio of Lombardía should be in the middle of both.


Right guys, those are our spanish friends.

[Incongruous]

) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross, a quick decisive strike against Denmark in anyway is good and would give you stability on the northern frontier with Denmark giving you all the bargaining chips.


2) The movement of your army
A. Wait for the supplies to be arrange then order Buquoy to the Lower Saxon circle to support Tilly. The result of the war is not going to be changed with a few weeks delay. As you are moving first play it safe and ry not to upset the local protestants.
3) On the Henistic League
D. Send Maximillian, make it look like you really care by sending you're second in command

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
B. Hire 1,000 Spanish mercenaries, The Spanish Tercio are some of the best trained infantry in the world. Veterans can often knock out twice their number in green troops. They would be usefull ina quick strike into LSC or Denmark.

[Ludens]

Destroyer of Hope, is Interactive History still running?

[Lord Winter]

I am afraid i am going to have to abandon it. I have had little time to write and research due to School. Also i feel like i have chosen one of the worst viewpoints and start times, Tilly or Wallenstein would probably been the better. I would like to thank every one who participated in this. :bow:

[Kraxis]

Hmm... that's sad...

But given the room we have here, you can always return to it without people actually having forgotten it.

[Ludens]

Pity. Well, at least you lived up to your name ~D .
:bow: