Interactive History V: The Duel of the Sea [Archive]

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Kraxis

01-11-2006, 18:40

19th of February 1918.

Standing atop the battleship Baden's bridge you look out on the fleet around you. This is new to you.
Coming from the old pre-Dreadnought battleships, you were sure that your position was at a dead-end after Jutland. But somehow the Admiralty felt that new blood was need at the top, and your progressive and at times demanding ideas brought you to the forefront.

Walking to the bridgewing you take in the harbour air. It is rank with inactivity!
The Admiralty has sent orders that the High Seas Fleet must do something soon, and something important. You are certain this has something to do with the upcoming events on land. While German troops are currently superior in numbers that will change soon enough with the Americans coming over in numbers. Something major is about to happen on the front, and apparently the fleet is supposed to do something to help.
The previous commanders were too timid to do something, or at least that is what the Admiralty thought, and now you are here.

You have tried to press for the reassignment of U-boats to the High Seas Fleet, if only temporary, but the Admiralty has denied that. The submarine warfare is more important than ever with the Americans coming in. And you have to reluctantly agree since the USN have not entered the British naval ports in support of their forces. Why that is you don't know, but the Admiralty thinks it is because of the U-boats and they will not back down.

Laying here in the port of Wilhelmshaven and in nearby Cuxhaven you have a total of 17 dreadnought battleships, 5 battlecruisers, 17 light cruisers and some 70 torpedoboats (you smile at this, the British call their torpedoboats ' torpedoboat destroyers' but experience has shown them to be evenly matched) of capable standards. In the north Baltic fighting in support of the Finnish revolution are the two old dreadnought battleships Rheinland and Westfalen plus a number of torpedoboats. Arrayed around in smaller ports nearby and in the two main ports you also have a host of pre-dreadnought battleships and outdated armoured and light cruisers acting as coastal defense, barracks, training and various other secondary duties. Perhaps it is time they resumed active duties?

You know that your forces are welltrained in maneuvers, well at least your heavy units, and it is believed they have an edge in accuracy over the British. You still remember how the entire line managed the 'gefechtkertwendung' at Jutland. It was a marvelous sight in face of the British crossing the 'T'. You hope that the 'lazy' time spent in port haven't eroded that advantage. But what you do know is that the bored and inactive crews have become somewhat less enthusiastic about the war, rumours prevail about revolutionary thoguhts and activities. That is not good, and you believe something needs to be done about it. Idle hands...

The intelligence on the British is to be fair rather limited. You only know for certain that no new battleships or battlecruisers have been built since Jutland and that the Vanguard blew up at Scapa Flow in July 1917, but they still retain a rather impressive advantage in numbers of 34 battleships and 8 battlecruisers, thus about double your force. So you know that you need to do something about that... Somehow. Reports says nothing about big ships in docks, but does mention that the HMAS Australia (battlecruiser) might be on convoy duty and others not impossible either, some might even be in the Mediterranean. A grand total of some 47 light cruisers are supposed to be ready in home waters or nearby, but it is assumed that almost 20 of them are outdated and many others are not assigned the Grand Fleet, perhaps only 20 can realiably be assumed to join the Grand Fleet. The armoured cruisers of which your own navy has almost removed totally the intelligence mentions to have a few active units ready at hand for the Grand Fleet, and the destroyers are assumed to have an advantage of at least 1.5:1 over your torpedoboats. Intelligence is certain that the British are currently refitting a very large cruiser to an aircraft carrier.

You know that British intelligence is good. The British forces have too often managed to see through German plans. Jutland in particular is too big for a coincident. But you do not know where it comes from, or how to deal with it.

Luckily for you, you have quite a few zeppeliners ready. They don't have much in terms of weapons, and the advent of AA guns on ships would also make it far too dangerous to attack ships. But their long range and relatively large crews means they are very good at spotting ships and identifying them. Also if weather is fairly bad, as it is in spring in the North Sea, their dropping gondolas can be used safely for both spotting and bombing (zeppeliner stays in cover while small gondola acts as eyes and bombadier). But they are very weak should the British attack with airplanes. You also know that the British do not have a similar force attached to the Grand Fleet.

Having stood in your own thoughts looking over Wilhelmshaven and the fleet you haven't appreciated the look of the ships themselves. The big ships look so clean and sleek, ready for battle. Small boats hustle about inside the harbour, tugs move a light cruiser around, you identify it as the Brummer, one of the successful convoyraiders of last autumn. It is likely it's action that caused the British to guard the scandinavian convoys so strongly.
You turn back inside the enclosed bridge and from there you alk to the antechamber to contemplate what to do.

The morale of the fleet is low, and bad behaviour is rife. You think over the options. You could begin a tough physical program, with a lot of intership competitions. Especially the engineers and ammohandlers would benefit from this. You are certain that this would help with the morale.
But you also think that maneuvers and gunnerypractice could help, but given the higher regard to gunners, bridgecrew and firedirectors it would hardly impact the others, who are noted to be the worst of the 'revolutionaries'. But this would likely help retain the sharp edge of the fleet.
Lastly you could send out a battlegroup to bombard Dover, which you know have only weak forces covering it. A few sunk destroyers and a bombarded town should highten the mood a good deal, but you fear that the battlegroup should get ambushed as the British has been good at. Which would turn the mood down as well as weakening you. Should it be the faster battlecruisers with a few light cruisers or some of the heavier battleships to deal with stronger opposition (also the battlecruisers are less affected by the low mood) but guarded by torpedoboats. Or maybe a strike at the scandinavian convoys?

British intelligence is good, you need to do something, but what?
You could close off the harbours with heavy guard, but that would likely lower the mood even more as the crews could not went steam in town. But you could also begin to train on relying less on wireless. Trouble is just that the Admiralty would still use it.

Also should the zeppeliners be sent out right away to scout out the British? You would like to but fear they mgiht give off the fact that you are planning something big.

Lastly should the pre-dreadnoughts, armoured cruisers and outdated light cruisers be formed into active forces again? They would be fairly badly crewed given their previous assignments and their battleworthyness is not too great, and lastly they might also give away your intentions.

So what will it be? Pick one of each.

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

AggonyDuck

01-11-2006, 20:58

1) B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale. We can't risk a fleet action yet I think and especially the maneuver training will be important in the coming fight.

2) B: Scale down usage on wireless. Not much to be said really, seems like the better choice to me.

3) B: Keep them at home for the time being. We're not launching any attacks at the moment, so keeping them at home might be wise. Although they might be able to provide us with some information, but I think it might be better to let them rest for our coming operation.

4) B: Keep them at home. They will only slow us down and will be no help against the Royal Navy. Also if we face battle their losses will be extremely high with a big loss of men too. Better to keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet. We need every available gun that's on a fast and powerful ship, even if they might be slightly outdated. Anyways the Finns don't actually need any naval support and if they really do we could possible use a couple of pre-dreadnoughts in that role. ~;)

Btw Kraxis what is the possibility for us to pass on false intelligence to the Brits?

discovery1

01-11-2006, 21:08

1) We''ve spent a long time in port. We may not be as skilled at sea as we once were. Perhpas it would be best to train at sea, although that might tip off the Reds. Then again, I doubt intership competitions are enough to overcome them either. Hmmm
GO for the at sea training. Being reminded of how good they are I think would help morale more and in a more fundamental way than simply distracting them.

2) I would suggest you change your encryption scheme. Barring that, scale back on wireless.

3)Send out the Sepplins, even if we don't leave for a few weeks. Find out about British patrols, and possibly put them on alert, whihc if it last long enough will wear down British Moral.

4) Leave the old ships at home. No one wants to be cannon fodder.

5)Recall the Batlic Fleet, unless they are significantly slower than the rest of the fleet.

Oh and Kraxis:
WE LOVE YOU!!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Kraxis

01-11-2006, 21:28

Just want to point out that every post counts (as long as it isn't another from the same person). So do not feel that you shouldn't post. In case of ties, it will be the best argument and if I can't find one that is good enough I will just pick as per seniority.

So you must keep arguments good (keeping in line with the idea that you are all different personalities of our admiral arguing with the main personality).

Uesugi Kenshin

01-11-2006, 23:39

1)C, send out a quick battlecruiser force to smash a Scandinavian convoy or two. This is less likely to get you in trouble than an attack on Dover and will both hone their skills and greatly improve morale, as long as things don't turn sour anyway...

2)B, scale back wireless or change encryption schemes. It won't stop the sailors from screwing around while on shore leave, but will help to break the monotony, perhaps improving morale or at least their mental edge, and be beneficial to future operations.

3)A or B, if the final decision is to attack a Sandinavian convoy or Dover definately send out the zeppelins, you will already have shown that you are up to something so there is no great risk in sending out the zeppelins. Otherwise keep them at home for now.

4)Keep the old ships at home for now, but don't completely resign them to the mothballs, they could be handy later on as a diversionary force.

5) Definately recall the Baltic fleet, they are good enough to help alleviate the English navy's sheer weight of numbers.

Flavius Clemens

01-12-2006, 00:34

1 B) Whilst I'm tempted by the option of a quick win convoy raid, as a new commander I'd rather gain more familiarity with the fleet first and be sure that skills haven't gone rusty since Jutland. And training keeps the whole fleet busy, whereas the raid options will only occupy part of it, leaving the rest still prey to thoughts of revolution.

2 B) Same arguments as the other posts. But, if we do opt for a raid on Dover or the convoys, then try and throw the Brits off the scent by making the limited wireless traffic and direction of steaming the target we haven't chosen. The Captains then turn to the real target, which only they know in advance.

3 B) No major scouting - keep them in reserve for the future. (I take it from the description that training and morale aren't a problem for them.)

4 Agree with Uesugi Kenshin - Keep the old ships at home for now, but don't completely resign them to the mothballs, they could be handy later on as a diversionary force.

5) A. Every ship that can make a serious contribution is needed.

discovery1

01-12-2006, 02:26

Raids are a terrible idea. The Brits can read our wireless transmissions, otherwish Jutland wouldn't have happened. ANy raid would be doomed.

AntiochusIII

01-12-2006, 04:38

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.1: A is the way to go. B won't solve any problem and with few true assets. C is way too early and the British could easily intercept us with their intelligence all over us.

2: There is no real question except to choose B. I second the notion of changing the passwords, however, at least internally if the High Command refuses. It'll keep the code guys active, too, and delay the British intelligence.

3: Hard choice...but I'd go for B and keep them fresh and safe for now at home. Whatever scouting benefits, however useful, might cause us some unnecessary -- and potentially weakening -- loss of zeppelins, whether from real damage or exhaustion.

4: B, Keep them at home, but not dismantle them. We cannot waste our resources on them right now with the chance of raising an alarm all too early for no benefits, but we might need them later in desperate cases or tactical maneuver.

5: A, return and refit the Rheinland and Westfalen for full service. Every big gun in big ships hold benefits in our outnumbered, defensive position. Do the Finns really need help?

King Kurt

01-12-2006, 11:01

I believe we should work towards a raid on Dover, but not now as we should do some training at sea. We should establish a pattern of training at sea to a certain timetable so we can turn a training exercise into the raid. So A for 1.
Dover is important as the base against the U Boats, so an attack on there is important. Also the grand Fleet is based in Scarpa Flow in scotland, so it has a distance to cover to intercept our forces who raid Dover.
2 - scale down wireless - so we can use it to decieve in the future.
3 - Zepplins to the North sea - but only the northern area. Also they should practice cooperation with our sea forces, especially the light cruisers.
4- Refit the secondary forces - we have use for them and training/ refitting will keep the crews active. These forces will be used as deception forces and for specialised attacks on bases - I have a cunning plan - the predrednaughts would be excellent block ships to be used like the British raid on Zebrugge, so we should get them fit for action with that in mind.
5- Recall the Rheinland and Westfalen - we need all we can get.

Our focus should be on the Channel with a view to disrupt sea movements between England and France prior to the big offensive. however we should fient North before we strike south.

Franconicus

01-12-2006, 11:22

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.

We have to prepare the operation. So no raid now.

2) B: Scale down usage on wireless.
Will not use a lot. But anyway.
3) B: Keep them at home for the time being.
Let them do excersice with our light ships. We cannot afford to loose them before the battle starts.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
This will give more options. We can decide later if we use them.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.

This will give more options. We can decide later if we use them.

I agree with Kurt: We must have a plan before we start Kraxis' day tp day planing.

I am certainly no expert to naval warfare. But here are some thoughts:

What is the goal of the operation? I see two options. 1st, we could cut off the connection between England and France. This would help the army, raise our prestige, but would not change much on the long run. 2nd, defeat the Royal Navy. This will be hard, but if we make it the connection to France would be our prize too. Of cause the Royal Navy would be able to replace their home fleet sooner or later, but we could gain more time.

We have to split the Home Fleet or lure it away from the area of operation. If we decide that the Navy is the target, then we can only lure parts of it.

How can we split the Roval Navy? Kraxis offers us the Brummer, so we could use this convoy raider. We could also use our old and slow ships to form a second fleet as lure. Make the 2nd fleet leave the harbor for training. Let the first fleet leave a couple of days later. The spies will tell it London. Then let the 2nd fleet go to the channel and pretend that they are going to attack Dover. The Royal Fleet will come from dover. Then the 2nd fleet can retreat and the 1st fleet can attack - whatever?

Alright, the plan is not finished.:sweatdrop: But let's discuss our strategy!

King Kurt

01-12-2006, 14:16

KING KURT'S CUNNING PLAN

We must face facts - we will not defeat the grand fleet in an open clash - we are outnumbered 2 to 1. The English never split their fleet during operations. The only inderpendant force was occasionally the battlecruisers and may be the squadron based on the QE class with them. Jellico and Beaty know they can loose the war in an afternoon. So the basis of a plan must be to disrupt cross channel communications in preparation of the big offensive due in the Spring. So we should raid and block using the old battleships ports between say Harwich and Dover. Our fleet can overwhelm the local forces - especially if we steal a march by surprising them and the grand fleet will be pulled down into the restricted waters off the Thames esturary and the Dover straights where our light forces can press home torpedo attacks and we might get lucky with mines etc. imagine the PR effect of getting an old battleship 1/2 way up the Thames and scuttling it in the main channel.

So, how do we do it?
1) We train, train, train.
2) We feint all our attention on the north of the north sea - maybe a couple of Scandanavian convoy raids with light forces etc
3) We train on the same days of the week, returning to port at dusk. We launch our major raid by sailing for England as dusk sets - thus getting a jump start.
4) We raid 3 or 4 ports at once - light forces and old ships close in, then the battlecruisers, then the main fleet as a shield.
5) The Zeps and some light forces operate in the North Sea to give us good warning on the Grand Fleet's movements.
How is that for a start?

Kraxis

01-12-2006, 14:54

Oh forgot to mention that your esteemed opponents are not Beatty. He had a run-in with the Admiralty and Jellicoe over Jutland and that promted him to resign. The new admiral is untested and has a history of a Admiralty lapdog, but perhaps this major advance has shaken him up. He was at Jutland and he seems to have taken a fancy to the battle, trying to find faults and the like.

So far the results are:

1) A: 3
B: 3
C: 1

2) B!!!!

3) A: 2
B: 4

4) A: 2
B: 5

5) A!!!!

So, so far only 1 is really possible for change.

AggonyDuck

01-12-2006, 15:16

I'm not that sure raiding ports with our old ships is a good idea. Speed is essential for a successful raid and that is what these older ships do not have. They might be able to do the raid, but I'm not sure that they would actually make it back to the port.

Especially with the fact that the British battlecruisers are stationed in Rosyth, easily within range to intercept us on the way back. Add that with the fact that the Brits have an uncanny ability to predict our operations, I can assume that we will just be sending those old ships and their crews to their deaths. That's not a good way to build up morale.

On the other hand sending one battlecruiser to raid convoys could easily tie up about two or three times of enemy battlecruisers. There's just the problem that the British battlecruisers have better speed, which makes using our battlecruisers as convoy raiders risky. :wall:

King Kurt

01-12-2006, 15:41

RabidGibbon

01-12-2006, 15:50

1: A - The superior British intelligence makes any sort of Raid by part of the fleet extremly risky. We need to be dividing the British Fleet, not our own. As for training at sea..... Its war out there. Outnumbered as we are we simply cannot risk one of our big ships running into a mine or submarine, lets keep them safely in harbour until we need them. So B, lets distract the men and give them something to aim for in the short term.

I think everything else is pretty much decided so I'll be lazy and just give letters.

2: B

3: B

4: B

5: A

Kraxis

01-12-2006, 15:55

Ehm... 1 A is staying in port, 1 B is going onto the Heligoland Bight for training, well within the minefields.

The minefields are the only places where there is continual combat. It mgiht not be with guns, but at day the British lay mines and at night your clear them while they hunt for the minesweepers. There is not much you can do about it per se, but chances might appear.

RabidGibbon

01-12-2006, 16:56

Whoops, careless of me, I'll change the post.

Thanks for pointing that out.... :embarassed:

Kagemusha

01-12-2006, 17:58

Ok here are my answers:

1.Option A) Get the men out from their arses.

2.Option B) We wiil never get the spyes out.of our harbors.

3.Option B) Keep them at home for the time being.

4.Option A): Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.More ships more tactical choises.

5.Option B)Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

discovery1

01-12-2006, 19:04

Rodion Romanovich

01-12-2006, 19:55

Very interesting. I think I agree with the choices already mentioned, but King Kurts cunning plan seems interesting. However we need to time the Thames blocking at a time when, if possible, much of the British fleet is trapped inside. If there are only smaller forces left outside we can try to engage them, or if that is impossible, try to raid the coasts and destroy docks and harbor facilities. But if our choice of time for the operation is ill chosen we have only lost a useful ship - if we're really unlucky the escorts too, and further helped strengthening the British odds. Plus we must analyze the terrain carefully on our maps. Perhaps it's easier for the British to just dig a channel beside instead of trying to move the scuttled ship if we pick a part of the river with too soft ground on the sides. While a channel takes time to fix in any case, it's difficult to predict what labor force the British might muster for such a project in war time. My knowledge about the Thames geography is limited, has anyone got information on whether there are any appropriate spots that Operation King Kurt can target with the desired effect?

For the questions I vote:
1 - A or B (does that count as A 0.5 and B 0.5? ~:)). I refrain from voting in a more detailed way, both options A and B seem good and it's difficult to choose. C seems bad, we need all ships for operation King Kurt :2thumbsup:
2 - B, with same motivation as Kagemusha suggested
3 - own option. Difficult choice, scouting is always valuable, but it's possible we reveal our plans in advance. Maybe scouting, but scouting out another area than the one we plan for our operation? Could be a diversion, and be a very positive form of scouting at the same time - if we know how many ships AREN'T in the area we scout, we also know how many, at the most, might be in the place we attack. I suggest with the Zeps scouting a rather undefended area far from where we are going to attack, but if I have to choice among the existing choices it's stay at home at the moment.

4 - A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more seems a good idea, as we lack numbers.

5 - I refrain from voting: Difficult choice. We need numbers desperately, but the old ships might not be that useful. Would it hurt morale much if they got sunk? Would it boost morale to see the old beasts still doing fine in battle? I trust the other participants to make the right decision.

Mongoose

01-12-2006, 20:14

So what will it be? Pick one of each.

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

1( A

Needed because of the Loyalty problems.

2( A

Forified cost would be a good thing

3( A

more recon to see how many of the british ships are in service.

4( A

To decrease the enemies advantage in numbers.

5( B

See above.

Kommodus

01-12-2006, 20:18

Since all but one of the choices are already decided, in ways that I more or less agree with, I'll comment on the remaining choice. For choice 1, my selection is... B!

We'll soon have some large operations to conduct, and we need to be in tip-top shape for them. We won't get there by playing a bunch of games. While A is not a terrible choice, therefore, it's basically a waste of time. There may be a few disentious ideas out there, but once we get into combat, the men will pull together for their collective survival. I'd say the risk of something as drastic as, say, mutiny, is minimal, as is the risk of running into a mine or a British ship while training at sea.

AggonyDuck

01-12-2006, 21:25

The old ships aren't coming back! - the aim is to send them with skeleton crews to use their big guns to support the attack but then they will be scuttled in pinch points in the chanels serving the port to block access. The British actually did this to Zeebruge during WW1 and more famously with HMS Camperdown at St Nazarre during WW2 when it was used to block the only dry dock capable of taking the Turpitz on the Atlantic coast. The crews will be taken off by destroyer or light cruiser. Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

How about combining this attack with a feint maneuver by the Dreadnoughts and most of the Hochseeflotte?

We could lure their larger capital ships away from the Thames Estuary by sailing towards north in force and seem to offer a battle over there. We should head north and not really keep it too secret, so that they will actually head to intercept us over there. Although a proper recon by the Zeppelins is a must during this operation, to ensure that we don't accidentally run into the Home Fleet. Also the men shouldn't be told the truth about the operation, before we've sailed from the port, to ensure maximum secrecy about the true role of the operation.

At the same time while most of the British capital ships are away pursuing the battleships, our strike force that is protected by our battlecruisers is heading to the Thames Estuary. The battlecruisers should be sufficient in handling most of the lighter forces situated around the area. This requires complete surprise and the plan should be kept a secret at all costs though, because total surprise is our best advantage in this plan.

Flavius Clemens

01-12-2006, 23:08

Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

Agree with that, and as a further plus point the humiliation could provoke a shamed Admiralty and their inexperienced admiral into rash responses that we might exploit.

But on the practical side of achieving it:
a) Do we know how much else we would be up against besides the Royal Navy - are there shore batteries, mines, aircraft & airships to worry about?
b) Can we get a battleship far enough up the Thames to reach a suitable bottleneck without a river pilot? I guess we have good charts of open water, but what's our detailed knowledge of the tidal river? Can we navigate the river at night, can the ship survive more than a few miles if we try it during daylight? Even if it is feasible I suspect we'll be tied to a few days when the tides and light are suitable, so timing will be crucial.

AggonyDuck

01-12-2006, 23:31

But on the practical side of achieving it:
a) Do we know how much else we would be up against besides the Royal Navy - are there shore batteries, mines, aircraft & airships to worry about?
b) Can we get a battleship far enough up the Thames to reach a suitable bottleneck without a river pilot? I guess we have good charts of open water, but what's our detailed knowledge of the tidal river? Can we navigate the river at night, can the ship survive more than a few miles if we try it during daylight? Even if it is feasible I suspect we'll be tied to a few days when the tides and light are suitable, so timing will be crucial.

Well I'm not sure about coastal batteries, but I don't think that we'll have to worry about mines in the Thames Estuary. Once we get out of the Bight, mines should be quite rare I think. I also don't think that aircraft or airships are really capable of proving to be a serious threat to our ships.

About B, I dunno really. Perhaps a english fella could help us with info about the Thames River and the Thames Estuary.

King Kurt

01-13-2006, 10:23

Glad to see my cunning plan is gaining favour.

The thames operation is probably more PR than useful. However blockading Dover, Calais, Bolougne, Folkstone for example would disrupt the flow of material in support of the Spring offensive.
One point to pick up - there was no big ships based down south, so we will not be trapping the Grand fleet in the Thames! In fact, one of the strengths of the operation is that the English fleet is based in Scarpa Flow at the northern tip of Scotland so they would have to get steam up then sail the length of the North Sea to intercept any attack on the Channel/ Dover Straights area. That is why the deception part of the plan is so important.~:cheers:

English assassin

01-13-2006, 12:40

About B, I dunno really. Perhaps a english fella could help us with info about the Thames River and the Thames Estuary

Thames estuary looks like a big expanse of water on a map, but is in fact mostly shallow with shifting sandbanks. There are IIRC five main channels out and a deep draught vessel would be severely restricted in her ability to manouvre. It is not trivial even today even in a small boat. A typical depth of water over the banks would be only a few metres, more or less depending on the tide.

The tidal streams can also be complex.

However the port of London is (was) about the largest in the world and good charts and tidal data for the estuary would have been readily available up until 1914. Very probably a siginficant number of the German merchant marine would be familiar with the apporaches to London in peacetime. Of course channels do silt up or shift.

Kraxis

01-13-2006, 15:08

Guys, I know too little for what you propose, at least for the Thames, where I know the Dutch had plenty trouble when they did their 'little' raid and stole the flagship in the second English-Dutch War. Many of their ships ran aground and it took far too long compared to what we should use. Of course they had sailships but we have no knowledge of the drifting sand. I think it is impossible currently.

About heavy ships in the Channel. Do not think that there might not be some, intelligence has indicated that a number of ships are not at their usual stations in Scapa Flow or Rosyth. They think three things might be the case, either they are in the Med., sitting in a Channel port or protecting the minefields in the Bight, or of course a combination.

Please do not base your choices on Operation King Kurt, but be advised that I am keeping it in mind. We might get a chance to do it later.

It is now:

1)
A:6
B:4
C:1

2)
B! But with a minority of one for A.

3)
A:3
B:6

4)
A:5
B:6

5)
A so far but a minority of two wants the two dreadnoughts to stay with the Finns (could that have an impact on your voting Kage?~;p)

The results will soon be played out of these choices, but the others aren't as numerous and fast as you (they have just moved forum so some might not have been able to post).

Franconicus

01-13-2006, 15:15

King Kurt

01-13-2006, 16:02

Can I echo Franconicus - I do enjoy these interactive histories - shame that work gets in the way!!

Can I ask a question to the Interactive masters - how do you work out what happens next? Do you work out a consequence for each option? Do you have a storyline as a background? Do you just react to the combined thoughts of the participants? It struck me that it would be great to relate this to a game of some sort - not necessaryily a PC game - to give some more unknowns.

Keep up the good work boys - and Kraxis - my apologies about the interest in the Thames, I saw it as a sideshow or a bit of colour alongside raids on the channel ports, but people just seem to have become swept along with it - who knows, they might even have the German Fleet sailing in line past Big Ben!!~:cheers:

Kagemusha

01-13-2006, 16:12

A so far but a minority of two wants the two dreadnoughts to stay with the Finns (could that have an impact on your voting Kage?)

Ahem..My thoughts are only concerned to those forces that landed in Finnland and their safety...:saint:

Kraxis

01-13-2006, 18:19

Kraxis,
how do you manage to motivate so many people to participate in your Interactive. Amazing! Congrat!!

Please do not base your choices on Operation King Kurt, but be advised that I am keeping it in mind. We might get a chance to do it later.
I think we have to have a strategy if we want to win. Just choosing the alternatives wont get us very far. The boundaries are too tough. So could you give us all likitations, so we can discuss a plan?
I did not wish to keep you from formulating future plans, not at all. But all choices need to be taken in the immediate context aswell as a more broad future context.

So formulating plans, and trying to keep them secret (good idea) but at the cost of intelligence and then blundering out might not be good for the near future.

Mind you I am not picking goods and wrongs here as that is determined by the collective answers of both teams over time. And that might answer your question King Kurt. I always have a broad plan, where do I want to go? And try to stick to it. But any specifics I always leave up to my audience. And those details might very well lead to disaster, but at times I am forced to veer from the course, for instance Antiochus' Dilemma was one such case. Usually I have 'right' and 'wrong' options but they are of course gone here, all choices have benefits and penalties.

To say it shortly, I make up each chapter as I go, each option's result being made up in advance. But there is a general guideline, in the case of Antiochus' Dilemma it was a major showdown with the Romans, but in that case the audience was a bit too intimidated.

SwordsMaster

01-14-2006, 03:43

MAybe you should set up an actual command system. With a Grand Admiral, his HQ, several Admirals, and chosen ship captains....

That'd push the level of immersion.

Kraxis

01-14-2006, 04:48

Yes, but it would lead to a case of people arguing over seniority, 'should this person know this' ect ect... It would become a mess for me to control and would lead to people taking over themselves.

I have been in this over at the .com where we had an RPG thread where each contributor was a medieval king/leader and the big boss was the Pope. Trust me, it had to be kept at a humerous level or else people would be killing each other. There was a snowball's chance in hell to be really serious. For instance I was the High Inquisitor of Poland and a hidden enemy of the Pope (in the political game, eventually I did attack militarily) and yet I launched a crusade to Edessa while my inquisition burned across eastern Europe. Meanwhile Russia and Byzantium kept invading and reinvading each other like there was no tomorrow. It was silly to be honest, fun but silly.
Here I try to keep it as simple, yet as immersive and plausible as possible, and that is best done if we look at it from a singler person's view, at least each time (Fronconicus has shown that differing viewpoints might create interesting debates).

The window for choices is closed... I need to post two chapters so in the meantime people can upset what I write if they come and change the selection of choices. So after this post and before the next chapter nothing can impact it.

Kraxis

01-15-2006, 17:42

26th of February

For just over a week you have been having especially the enlisted men in the very confined areas of the ships do serious physical workouts, with competions between the ships. Boxing, wrestling, running of various distances, and most importantly football matches. At first the crews weren't too keen on this, but by now they relish at the chances to beat each other at various sports. And initially there was little noise from the revolutionaries but as the workout began to gain popularity they began to become noisier and noisier. Trying to stirr the crews they have provoked fighting in town. To the casual observer it would seem that a full scale mutiny is on the verge of happening, but you have kept an eye on the men. Officers and NCOs have kept a clear record of who has been saying what and when, and it beomes clear that the crews themselves have not been particulary revolutionary, they have merely followed the best alternative to boredom. A small core of about 57 sailors have been identified as the worst rabblerousers.
Another benefit of this program has been the physical part of the crews have become not only stronger and better (obviously) they are also getting healthier and more satisfied withtheir lousy jobs of shoveling coal or handling ammo.

You also recalled Rheinland and Westfalen. Both the Finns and the crews of the two ships didn't like this, but there was little the ships were doing in Finland. And on the way back escorted by 6 torpedoboats they stumbled into a British convoy just north of the Danish island of Bornholm in the Baltic. The two heavy ships quickly sent the escorts to the bottom of the sea, then the torpedoboats helped in herding the merchants to German ports. An entire convoy captured, containing steel, coal, food and timber. A valuable haul.
While the Admiralty was overjoyed, and you gained valuable influence with them, you were not. You had painstakingly made sure to keep the transfer secret from British Intelligence, but this chance encounter exposed the move. But at least the crews of the two ships got some needed training in gunnery and their moraly has soared from this 'success'.

This was only part of your large scheme to keep the British in the dark of your ideas of winning the sea, if only temporarily. The wireless messages have been kept to a minimum, and only containing unimportant reports and requests. The Admiralty while not directly against this excercise haven't been to keen on keeping this up, and you know at some point they will start to blabber out your plans once more. You are certain that the wireless is the center of British Intelligence.
Also, while you had the chance to scout out the North Sea with zeppelieners, you chose not to, to keep everything secret. As well as keepign the secondary forces in their limited service, but both forces are kept ready to deploy, especially the airships.

Intelligence has indicated that the British battlecruisers left Rosyth the 18th, and the next day spies in Scapa Flow informed that heavy gunfire was heard from the large harbour. Presumably the British were training gunnery. You are not certain where the battlecruisers have gone, though traffic in Spaca has increased. Meanwhile you got a report on the number of enemy heavy units in Scapa Flow from the 18th, and other intelligence sources indicated that three or four heavy units are currently in Portsmouth. The numbes doesn't add up, even if you consider the Australia on convoy duty there is still a lack of three to six dreadnought (the reports are shaky on the precise numbers in Scapa). Intelligence has indicated that attention has been shown to the Med., but you are not sure of that as there is hardly any need for that. They HAVE to be here in the north, but where...
As you think on it, it might be a good to find them. If they are nearby you can perhaps catch a limited force alone, and if they are farther away you might disrupt some shipping with raiders.
But how should it be done? You could attempt to scout the near sea with small forces of ships, but should those be light cruisers, torpedoboats or perhaps even smaller vessels such as minesweepers and attackboats? Scout at night ot day? Of course the zeppeliners are a choice as well.

You also think on what to do specifically with the revolutionaries. Imprisonment? Could be dangerous as the others crewmembers might get 'that' feeling back, but the Admiralty would like that a lot. A sneaky transfer to the secondary forces? Might just cause a revolution on those ships. Send them to the front? But it isn't likely that the Army will recieve them freely, you might have to pull some influence with the Admiralty.

Also, now that the physical workout has done it's primary job, you don't know if it should be continued. Yes there is still much to be gained from it, but you would also like to trained the crews at sea. Especially the crews of Hindenburg wants to get to grips with the British, even if only in training, they are mainly the survivors of Lützow lost after Jutland due to the damage she had suffered. And both Baden and Bayern are fairly untested in larger manaeuvers, though trained well enough.

So what will it be?

1) The search for the lost British units.
A) Send out ships to find them, you get to pick the composition (light cruisers and torpedoboats, small vessels for a shortrange search, heavy units to engage them... ect ect..)
B) Use the zeppeliners. Define the searcharea for them, it can be all from 'everywhere' to a single zeppeliner just looking off your harbours (remember this is not an indication that you chose badly before just that the zeppeliners are on standby ready to do their job whenever you wish it, expect them to pop up as a choice for practically every chapter).
C) Do not look at all. They should present themselves in time, also such active searches might expose something bad.

2) The revolutionaries.
A) Lock 'em up! This will likely generate influence from not only the Admiralty but also the Emperor himself. This can be very good indeed. But the regualr crews might not take to this very kindly.
B) Ship them off to the secondary forces. This way they will be gone, yet not affect the regular crews with their 'martyrdom'. But they mgiht cause revolutionary thinking in the secondary units, which are even worse off with boredom.
C) Use what little influence you have with the Admiralty to send them to the Western Front. That should make short work of them. They will never return.

3) General maneuvers.
A) Continue the physical program. Will lead to faster reloading and less tiring in battle, but little else. But you also risk nothing.
B) Set out to train maneuvers and gunnery in the close waters. Small risk of running into a few mines but also makes the fleet ready to set after any enemy force nearby.
C) You own choice, but remember nothing too complicated as you are still fairly new to the fleet as Admiral. They need to get to know you. Also each choice that is different from what ahs previously been suggested will be considered another seperate choice, effectively creating a D, an E and F and so on. You need to chose among youselves if you go with this. If all have one and doesn't agree it is up to the arguments.

Kagemusha

01-15-2006, 17:58

1) The search for the lost British units.B) Use the zeppeliners. Send zeppelins out to look for them but stay away from British fighters if possible.

2) The revolutionaries.C) I think the men can talk less and do more in the trenches of the Western front.

3) General maneuvers.B) Set out to train maneuvers and gunnery in the close waters.Now that the basic health is getting better we can start the training the crews in their posts.

Kraxis

01-15-2006, 18:22

1B... Where should they search?

Rodion Romanovich

01-15-2006, 18:31

1 - B, use the zeppeliners to search everywhere it's possible without risking losses for them. If we find them early and close to the North sea coast we can engage them right away with a force chosen to handle exactly the opposition the zeppeliners spotted (and some more to be safe).

2 - how big revolutionaries are they, what have they done exactly? And how many are they?

3 - B, risks of mines are small and we're expecting some incoming enemies, aren't we? ~:)

AntiochusIII

01-15-2006, 23:17

1. B: Zeppelins. Search wherever it is deemed relatively safe from British fighters. No need to sacrifice our valuable Zeppelins yet. If we find the missing ships isolated we might be able to deal a crippling blow on the other forum's morale. If not, then it's valuable intelligence with few risks. ~:)

2. C: Keep'em Quiet On the Western Front. Lock them up is martyrdom, the best of all rabblerousing techniques seen throughout history. Send them to secondary forces basically allow them to sow more trouble than they should. Get them on the Western Front might help fill the trenches with their corpses and feed the rats. Let them die heroes of the Old Second Reich and nothing more. :shame:

3. B: Maneuvers and gunnery. The troops are in good enough condition now; they're not in the gyms, they're in the war. This, as you've stated, also keeps us ready to use our fleets in short notice: the missing ships could be anywhere doing anything, especially harmful things to our plans. Why, it seems the soldiers would now fancy a little gunnery that reminds them of glorious memories past, especially the Jutland veterans, and a small advantage in this matter might help in a pitched naval battle.

Basically I agree with Kagemusha in all things.

Kraxis

01-16-2006, 00:12

2 - how big revolutionaries are they, what have they done exactly? And how many are they?
There are 57 of them (as I wrote earlier). It is uncertain what they have done as the rest of the enlisted men keep quiet out of loyalty, but their actions durings the last week has shown them to be less than loyal and rather destructive for morale. It is believed that they are communists and willing to let Germany lose the war, which is treason (in an autocratic state a lot of things are treason).

discovery1

01-16-2006, 03:05

1) Send out the zeps. Scout away from fighter bases.

2) Exile to the Western Front is good. defered shawow death sentence.

3)Manuvers. We need the practice.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-16-2006, 03:27

1)B, send them out, but make sure they avoid fighter bases and instruct them to use the weather to their advantage when possible.

2) I think I'd go with C, they get their punishment and the oppurtunity to serve the reich.

3)B, practice for the crews will help them hone their gunnery skills, we can't afford to miss. Also reloading in simulated battle should help improve their reloading time as well and the fleet needs to be ready to pounce on the Brits.

RabidGibbon

01-16-2006, 04:00

1: B Use the Zeppliners, study the norway to scotland route - I suspect the missing battleships are covering that route.

2: B We need to save our admiltary influence for when it is important. If they want to cause revolution with the lesser forces then so be it. But perhaps their influence will be diluted when they are transferred.

3: A Continue the physical training exercise

Franconicus

01-16-2006, 09:11

[QUOTE=Kraxis][B]1) The search for the lost British units.
B) Use the zeppeliners, study the norway to scotland route C) Do not look at all. They should present themselves in time, also such active searches might expose something bad.

2) The revolutionaries.
B) Ship them off to the secondary forces. Even though I do not like that. We should send them somewhere else, to the mine sweeper for example. This are very small boats, so they cannot do much damage and the sweepers have casualties too. Maybe we can send them to small units and arrest them after a while. So nobody would notice it.

3) General maneuvers.
B) Set out to train maneuvers and gunnery in the close waters.

Rodion Romanovich

01-16-2006, 09:48

There are 57 of them (as I wrote earlier). It is uncertain what they have done as the rest of the enlisted men keep quiet out of loyalty, but their actions durings the last week has shown them to be less than loyal and rather destructive for morale. It is believed that they are communists and willing to let Germany lose the war, which is treason (in an autocratic state a lot of things are treason).

Ok, then they're probably too big revolutionaries to dare using on our main forces. The other enlisted men seem difficult to judge - they may or may not be as much revolutionaries, so splitting the revolutionaries up among the others probably isn't enough to avoid mutiny or similar. I think I agree with Franconius about sending them to rather unimportant, small ships if possible, where they can't cause too much harm. My reason for wanting more detailed info on their actions was simply that if they're too many it would weaken the crews if they were moved away from the fleet, so if they could be redistributed among the crews in a way that would prevent mutiny and other critical things from happening at the moment of action, we wouldn't lose men. Both men and ships seem to be in shortage, after all. But 57 is a fairly low number. I still vote for keeping them in smaller ships though, where they can't cause as much harm should they choose mutiny. If they're on a very slow, very small ship, they'd need to be fools to attempt mutiny among our other ships.

King Kurt

01-16-2006, 12:05

The battleships and possibly the battlecruisers must be in a port big enough for them. That means Portsmouth, London (but unlikely), Harwich or Rosyth - so our Zepplins should look there first. They should attempt to arrive over the port at dawn to give the best light while minimising the possibility of interception by fighters. If that comes up negative, then general sweeps of the North Sea is important. I think out recent sucess against the convoy may have flushed them out so we should start our search in that area. By the way, well done Kraxis on this part - naval wargaming is always characterised by initial frantic searching as information is power, so we should concentrate on finding this force.
The revolutionaries? - I was tempted to suggest put all on a destroyer and put it on long patrols, but off to the Western front is the best idea. The unrest will undoubtedly return, but our activities over the next few months will slow that process down.
We must start training at sea to improve our efficency. Also, it will provide a cover for the launch of our operation.

Finally - an excellent source of info on the German navy http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/index.html It provides info on all the ships as well as some historical background.~:cheers:

English assassin

01-17-2006, 11:21

IMHO:

Revolutionaries and crews don't mix. Especially bored crews in second line ships. if treatuing them harshly may lead to more trouble, leaving them around to work their mischief and THEN treating them harshly will only be worse. Since it seems we can't just shoot them, we need them out of the way, either locked up or at the western front. I don't think the navy should ask the army to do its laundry for it, its just not right, so lock em up.

Poor morale is down to boredom. Therefore I think some medium range destroyer sweeps into the southern north sea (edit: oops, I mean German Ocean ;-)) might improve morale, seamanship, and, who knows, tell us where the british ships are not. Orders should be not to engage a superior force, but to feel free to mix it if they encounter a destroyer flotilla, minelayers, or the like. I don't think the force should be supported by any heavier units as this will lead to a temptation for "mission creep" if the enemy are encountered, and the next thing we will know we will have Beattie on our necks with half a dozen battlecruiers, although stationing a few U boats on the destroyers line of withdrawal could do no harm. (NB need to make sure the U boat captains brush up on the boat recognition, possibly our boats should display some obvious recognition signal when they pass through U boat patrol area.)

I'm not sure how vulnerable the zeppelins are to mechanical failure (fairly, I suspect) or to enemy action (very, I imagine) but my guess is they will degrade with use quickly. IMHO they would be better saved for when their information could be of real tactical use, either by scouting in front of the fleet or by appearing where the fleet is not as a deception.

Using them now will wind up telling us, at best, where the British used to be when the time comes to put to sea.

And manouevres for the remainder of the fleet.

Kraxis

01-17-2006, 15:05

Short info (for EA in particular):

Beatty has resigned completely. The new battlecruiser commander is Vice-Admiral Pakenham (a divisional commander subordinate of Beatty when he held that command).
You have no control over the U-boats at all. They have a specific command of their own, in fact you have only got control of the High Seas Fleet, meaning the minelayers/sweepers are not even under your control, though they will of course follow your directions if you request it, but nominally they are seperate.

The zeppeliners are pretty reliable, but very easy to shoot down (hydrogen). They don't like strong winds of course, but the weather is a stable slow western wind with an almost full overcast, or at least that is what can be determined.
As long as they do not meet fighters or get too close to enemy ships they should be fairly safe, and they have a very long range, making them alble to fly for long periods of time. But their numbers are fairly limited (no set number but if losses are too heavy the Admiralty might take them away).

Results so far:

1) B:8 (with a majority wanting a wide search clear of enemy airforces, meaning land), A:1 (King Kurt I suppose that is what you meant)

2) C:5, B:3, A:1 (this can be turned if you are quick)

3) B:8, A:1

Will soon update.

English assassin

01-17-2006, 15:11

Doh, sorry, maybe I should actually read all the posts...

Franconicus

01-17-2006, 15:32

Kraxis

01-17-2006, 15:57

Couldn't we send some of our fighters or bombers over the Channel instead of the Zeps?
A possibility, but that fact remains that the airforces are the territory of the Army. And given how hard pressed they are in the air currently, the chance of them actually being willing to 'waste' time and fuel looking for something that might not even be there is very small. Later perhaps there is a chance to use influence (if it has been gained) to get planes.

You have a small number of floatplanes, but their range is lousy and were developed to be used in conjunction with a tender.

Rodion Romanovich

01-17-2006, 16:13

King Kurt

01-17-2006, 17:39

Results so far:

1) B:8 (with a majority wanting a wide search clear of enemy airforces, meaning land), A:1 (King Kurt I suppose that is what you meant)

.
No - I am a Zepplin man - but I tried to be a bit more specific over what I wanted them to do. We must look at the ports - I am sure that can be done without putting them at too great a risk. I would also suggest that ships do not pose much threat to the Zeps. My grandfather served on HMS Dragon - a light cruiser - from about 1920 to 1925 and I remember him saying their only AA weapon was a Lewis gun in the Crow's nest! I do think we should show some agression and a little less caution - Beaty going is interesting - he had some of the Nelson touch - but was also rather likely to dive in where others would be more cautious - so the new man will be less predictable.~:cheers:

Kraxis

01-17-2006, 23:14

Well by this time, in real history, Beatty was the Grand Fleet commander, the new one is your esteemed opponents.

The ships were perhaps not too great a danger unless the zeps got close but several did get shot down as most of the heavier units beginning to carry a few big AA guns, and as you know even a fiarly close burst would be enough to risk the zep. In fact I think one of the BBs did bag a zep.

Flavius Clemens

01-17-2006, 23:32

As per the majority views - use the Zeppelinsfor a widespread search, and go for fleet maneouvers and gunnery training.
The tougher question is the punishment for the revolutionaries. I don't particularly want to use up our influence with the powers that be, but it's probably a safer option to get them transfered to the Western Front - and at least that way they get to do their bit for the Fatherland. With luck we'll soon be restoring our influence with some more British scalps.

Kraxis

01-18-2006, 20:05

After thinking it over for a while you come to a few conclusions about what to do, but before you do anything else you send a very proper request to the Admiralty to take the revolutionaries off your hand. They might be a risk to future operations you argue, and then hope that they will no longer be your problem. In case they might not be willing to do this for you you plan on transferring them to the minesweepers.

After you have sent off the message you call in Captain Fuchs and order him to send a further message to the zeppeliner bases that they are to go on full patrol as soon as possible, covering the North Sea from Heligoland to western Norway and as far west as to cover Dover as well.

Then you begin to formulate the orders for the coming trials and training.
Within the hour quartermasters begin to load on food, water and other supplies and even before you leave port there are requests for restocking of munitions. The trains should arrive in a few days.
For hours the dockworkers and crews labour with loading the ships with corditebags, heavy shells and plenty of light ammunition for the lighters guns. You expect the fleet will be ready to sail the following morning.

Already a few hours after launch you get the first report from the southernmost zeppeliner, V91. It has sighted four heavy and three medium units 35 nautical miles northwest of Heligoland. The captain is certain that it has not been spotted due to the heavy cloudcover, and even offers to bomb the ships. You order it to keep on station for the time being, and await replacement forthe watch.
In the morning you get another report, this time from zeppeliner Z22, covering the deep expanse northwest of Jutland. It has spotted a convoy heading towards what it expects to be Hartlepool, that is heavily escorted by three heavy units and a number of smaller units. It will try to get closer but the strong winds might expose the airship, so the captain can't say for sure that it is unseen.
This is followed by the answer from the Admiralty:
"Vice-Admiral
We find it interesting that you wish to get rid of the 'unwanted' crewmen by sending them to the front. We expected that you would have deal with treason in a more stately and military fashion, trial and imprisonment/execution.
But we find that your choice might have some merit, so we have contacted the Army and they are willing to recieve the rabblerousers. Hopefully this will be the end of the issue."
You read between the lines that the Admiralty was very annoyed with this request but that it couldn't just brush you off. You get the feeling that you will not be able to do much until you have won some influence again.

Just as you sail out with all heavy ships, but Rheinland and Westfalen, which both needed some rest after their prolonged stay at sea, you recieve yet another report, this time from V43, stating that three heavy units have just entered the port of Dover. Because of the proximity to the English coast the captain says that he is forced to retreat as both fighters and AA guns dot the area. He is afraid that he has been spotted and won't be returning the next days at the very least.
Z22 then reports in again. It has managed to get closer to the convoy. It seems to be sailing at a mere 4 knots. Observation has convinced the captain that the three heavy units are two battleships and a battlecruiser, perhaps of the Invincible or Indefatigable class. But he dares not get closer, and instead has opted to return to refuel.
As the fleet exit port you plot in the positions of the enemy forces. It seems they are within range of each other to reinforce at least the force near Heligoland but not too soon. This is a great opportunity.

Blasting ahead to the eastern gap between Heligoland and Jutland, you begin to formulate plans with Vice-Admiral Bodicker of the battlecruisers. You quickly end up with a couple of plans and variations of them.
First plan, made by Bodicker, is a bold and speedy attack on the convoy with the battlecruisers and light cruisers to deal with destroyers and merchants. They should be stronger than the British force alone. Meanwhile the battleships would position themselves between the forward force and crush them as they raced to intercept the retreating battlecruisers (would have to assume the British would launch their own battlecruisers and that you would expect that and run for home. Risky if the British are aware where your are.
The second, of your own planning is an attack on the forward force, of which there are a couple of variations:
The first is a slow deliberate attack by the entire fleet, no fancy stuff, but it is unlikely that the light forces or minelayers will be affected at all, and the large force could get a bit problematic to maneuver around. And of course larger numbers means bigger cahnce of something going wrong (mines, grounding, collision ect).
The second is a sneaky attack by three of the best battlecruisers from the north intent on destroying minelayers and light units, then they are supposed to be 'surprised' by the strong enemy force and flee northeast into the arms of the strongest nine battlships and the remaining two battlecruisers. The others would be put in reserve further to the southeast. Tomorrow morning would be a good choice for this as it would make the enemy gunnery harder, yours easier and the light would also shroud the battlefleet from longe range spotting.
Hopefully these two actions will send the other two groups to the rescue, or perhaps the British battlecruisers. But even if it is not then you will still have gotten rid of four heavy units for little cost to yourself.
Of course you also consider not engaging at all and just follow on with your plans of maneuvers and gunnery.

You also consider what to do with the zeppeliners.
You could let the covering zeppeliner try and bomb the British forward force and actively scout the sea towards Scapa Flow.
You could also create a screen of airships halfway across the North Sea, while keeping taps on the forward force.
Lastly you can let them continue as they are now (follow the forward force and the convoy at range).

What will it be?

1) A: Attack the convoy with the battlecruisers and ambush the forward force.
B: Plow ahead with the entire force and overwhelm the forward force.
C: Be sneaky by luring the forward force away to it's destruction.
D: Drop any thought of attacks and carry out the training south of Heligoland.

2) A: Let the zeppeliners be more active.
B: Create a screen across the North Sea.
C: Be more reserved with their use.

AggonyDuck

01-18-2006, 21:14

1) A

It seems like the best choice to me. :)

2) B

Kagemusha

01-18-2006, 21:22

Ok.We have to remember we are dealing with sneaky bunch of people here.:inquisitive: Option 1) D.Lets practice first and then start doing our fancy manouvers.
Option 2)A.Knowledge is power.But dont let them be too active.We dont want to get them killed.~;)

Flavius Clemens

01-18-2006, 21:35

1 C. This seems to me to have the best chance of surprise. After the accidental sucess by Rheinland and Westfalen the British may be assuming we're starting a programme of convoy raids and deliberately setting out this convoy as bait. Also from the Zep reports there is more chance the convoy has spotted its shadower. So if they are expecting an attack on the convoy better to go for the forward force instead. As we haven't had time for practice manoevers, throwing all the fleet in at once might end up in chaos. Plan C isn't too complicated and keeps our ships in more manageable divisions.

2 C. No bombing of the forward force, it would let them know we know they're there and loose the benefit of surprise, but do need to keep an eye on the targets in case the RN turns out to have something up its sleeve that we haven't thought of.

Flavius Clemens

01-18-2006, 21:40

Though it now occurs to me that given our suspicions that the British are reading our radio signals, the reconnaissance reports from the Zeppelins might already have been picked up, in which case we don't quite have the element of surprise we might have hoped for... Hmm...

Uesugi Kenshin

01-18-2006, 22:07

1) C for the previously stated reasons, and doing nothing is folly IMHO because we need to get the crews' morale up and if we can destroy even the forward force we will have gotten a victory for the whole fleet. Also we may still be able to smash the convoy afterwards.

2) B, we can't afford to have the British sneak anything through, we need to know if more ships are coming this way and they will also hopefully keep from alerting the British with more active searches.

King Kurt

01-19-2006, 10:44

A is too risky, especially as we need more training. The lack of training rules out B as well - also we need to act swiftly, and the whole fleet is very ungainly. So it has to be C - we need some qudos with the Admiralty - and it is a good plan, relatively simple and we can withdraw if things don't go our way.
We need the Zeps for info only so it has to B with an emphasis on keeping a close eye on the convoy and covering force.

Our fleet should operate as much as possible under radio silence. The hunt begins!~:cheers:

Franconicus

01-19-2006, 11:19

I agree with Kurt. Maybe the Zep can throw some bombs on the convoy, from big height and during bad weather. Let the English now that we saw the convoi and let us pretend that we will attack it soon.

How can we mask our moovement?

Ludens

01-19-2006, 13:47

1C) A and B are a bit too bold for an untrained fleet, but I think a sneaky attack should rid us of two battleships. It will also gain us some prestige with the admirality. However, if there are more English in the region, proceeding with the training might be a better idea.

2B) There is still at least one or perhaps more English battleships missing, but we should be careful with our zeppelings. Also, the English gunnery training may have been a feint, to mask their fleet's departure.

Kraxis

01-19-2006, 15:36

Results so far...

1) A:1, C:4, D:1

2) A:1, B:4, C:1

The fleet is not untrained, just a bit rusty, and even for the best trained fleet there will be mistakes and/or accidents.

Rodion Romanovich

01-19-2006, 20:09

I think the lightly guarded convoy might very well be used for baiting to lure us into a trap. I'd say - try to destroy as much as possible of the convoy but use zeppelins and everything possible to cover the possible approaches of enemy reinforcements, and withdraw the ships at the slightest sign of trouble, or when they're too far from our own harbors and places where they can retreat to in the case of the emergence of a huge British fleet trying to trap us. Also, make sure the Zeppelins cover all possible ways the British can sail to cut off our retreat to our own harbors. They might be trying to lure us out in too deep water too far from our harbors, so that they can effectively put their own fleet between our strike force and the coast. With their speed, they should have a good chance at sailing out towards our strike force and destroy it before any reinforcements from the coast would have any hope of getting close enough to help them. If so, we could lose a huge amount of ships and be so much weakened that the British could even stand a good chance of defeating our remaining forces in the North Sea afterwards.

So for choices I say:
1 C - try to lure part of them away from the convoy. We mustn't choose A, which means splitting up and putting us in disarray when/if the enemy has a larger force in reserve out there. We mustn't choose B, as it is too risky and might result in losing everthing - we're also not trained well yet so we should avoid the inevitable major engagement, that'll eventually come, until much later. I however think D is a little too cowardly - we want to take every chance we can to destroy ships of theirs.

2 B - create a huge screen. Concentrate on covering all areas around the enemy convoy, to look for ambush forces there, AND all possible ways a British force trying to cut the strike force off from the coast would take. No need to put as much effort into covering the other areas.

Kommodus

01-19-2006, 22:02

Hardly necessary for me to vote here, but I'd go with:

1. C
2. B

I have to wonder what those 4 heavy and 3 medium units are doing at Heligoland. I wouldn't be surprised to see them simply retreat when the realize the true strength of our attack, but we may do some damage regardless.

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 00:02

Legio, 1C means attacking the force near Heligoland. The convoy is somewhat further north of it. So if you want to change your choices, then do it, but I doubt it will have much impact really.

Lord Winter

01-20-2006, 02:19

1c 2b

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 03:22

Talk at length with Bodicker about the plans and in the end he agrees that a sneaky attack might just be the best option. You smile and tell him to prepare Hindenburg, Derfflinger and Seydlitz to act as bait. As he leaves you send off the new directions to the zeppelieners, that they should form a screen as far to the west as possible while keeping a single airship near the forward force. This will cover a lot of ground but there will also be many gaps.

During the night the zeppeliners Z14 and Z21 report seeing many gunflashes and for hours on end on the horizon coming closer. You estimate that the British are in fact training gunnery at night and at sea, but you are disturbed at the lack of info regarding the size of the enemy force.

As the first light sneaks over the horizon all three battlecruisers begin their run to the south. It is now 6:11. At 6:22 you recieve a message from V90, the zeppeliner on station near the enemy forward force. She has just been rammed by an unknown airship and taken extensive damage in her rear sections, but the smaller enemy blimp has broken it's back and is on fire after a burst of machinegunfire punctured her. She is attempting to reach Heligoland, but she is already dipping below the clouds, clearly spotted.
You frown... The British are using airships? And they know you are aware of their force, they might even know of your line of battleships. For how long have they known this? You think not too long as the collision indicate that they didn't know the zeppeliner was on station. Also now you have lost the advantage of rangespotting from the air. Despite these possible problems you carry on with the plan, turning your ships into a line north-northwest.

At 6:32 Bodicker reports contact with enemy light forces, two light cruisers, four destroyers and six minelayers. With guns blasing they rip the smaller ships to pieces as they try to defend themselves. At 6:52 the first smoke is visible from the south and at 7:26 the British battleships open fire. By then both light cruisers were burning wrecks and the destroyers were sunk while three of the minelayers were gone the the other three fleeing at westerly directions. Very satisfied Bodicker, steams at full speed northeast, towards the spot where you will be soon enough. The exchange of fire goes up into full and during the flight Derfflinger is hit in a boiler, dropping her speed to 22 knots, keeping her well within the range of the battleships' guns. Bodicker opts to stay with Derfflinger, spreading out into line abreast. It takes a while before the British copies this, and several serious hits are observed on the leading ship. The British gunners are good and keep straddling the battlecruisers and hit them now and then.

Finally, at 8:12 the main line is in range and Bodicker sverves to the southeast, presenting his broadsides and heading for the rear where Moltke and Von der Tann resides.
The vast amount of shells pound the four British ships equally it seems. All four are hit quite a few times. The guns of Baden and Bayern do greater damage on the former leader, and while the other three are also seriously hit they manage to turn away safely. As they flee the last battleship can't keep up and falls behind seeking a new direction to the west, while her comrades head northwest, she doesn't even fire back anymore. In the confusion three smaller ships, estimated to be armoured cruisers, are seen heading west-southwest.

You order damaged Derfflinger and 5 torpedoboats to chase down the stricken battleship, and order the other four battlecruisers to speed up the port flank to get alongside and perhaps in front of the British.

Just then the returning zeppeliner Z14 reports that it has spotted a line of 8 heavy units bearing down on you from the north, and V11 reports thatthe formerly wellguarded convoy now has only got two units left, currently turning on a southeasterly course, away from the convoy.

At 8:59 you are informed that another ship is coming from the northwest, and at 9:25 she opens up with her guns, while zig-zagging to present her broadside as much as possible while still keeping up with the three battleships, clearly she is a battlecruiser.
The captain of the last batleship is bright and uses all the tools in his arsenal to protect his and the other ships, venting surplus steam to cloud the ships, over stack the boilers with coal for denser smoke and a series of small maneuvers (indicating that this ship is faster) that lets her fire more guns.
Strikes are observed often enough on all British ships, while Baden and Bayern suffer only a few hits, but Hindenburg and Von der Tann suffer several critical hits and Von der Tann suffers a cordite explosion in one of her secondary guns, effectively shutting down her starboard centerturret.

At 9:13 Derfflinger reported that the enemy, now identified as Dreadnought, was dead in the water and not firing any more, and her destroyers were taking on survivors. At 9:42 she rolls over and sinks.

You feel the info from the zeppeliners is disturbing. Clearly the enemy is sending more and more forces into the battle. Already a battlecruiser has arrived, and soon another two battleships will arrive, making a full 5 battleships (of which three are quite damaged). Not long after you expect to see 8 further enemy ships. What type they are you don't know, as the zeppeliner didn't have the fuel to linger over them.

You think over your options... What will you do?

1) Drive on! Soon one or more battleships will not be able to keep up and will fall back to face destruction, easily making up for the battlecruiser and perhaps soon the two extra battleships coming down. And finally the 8 enemy ships seems to be coming at the flank, effectively letting you cross their 'T'. The current forces of 9 battleships and 4 battlecruisers (Derfflinger is not ready just yet) are more than enough.

2) Same as above with the twist of calling in the remaining 8 battleships to come up behind the enemy ships, and also break your line into three lines of three (and a line of four battlecruisers to the side). This should provide you with flexibility and firepower currently.

3) You are not certain that the 8 ships in the big line are alone.
While you are slowly closing on the enemy, you feel that you need more. Let slip the convention of the battleline and let each ship sail at best speed, then when the larger enemy formation is visible you turn around and escape, hopefully after destroying a ship or two more.

4) Continue as now, but order the remaining battleships to form a battleline going west then as the enemy heavy force arrives you turn around and retreat to the line of battleships to the south.

5) Call off the attack, the sinking of a battleship and quite a few smaller ships can easily be considered a success, though somewhat limited given you had such strength at sea, but who knows what is out there?

RabidGibbon

01-20-2006, 03:26

Not quite sure how to put this but I'd like to charge in with everything at the forward force (B) or everything thats at sea practiscing gunnery.

Whilst flinging up a screen of zeppliens across the likely approach points ie: the entire north sea (B)

And as soon as the (RN) forward force is resting on the bottom or the zepplins report that the Royal navy is en route we leg it back to Kiel. Or werether we live.

discovery1

01-20-2006, 04:04

Where are we relative to the convoy? and the other ships in the area? Are the two incoming battle ships between us and the convoy?

Uesugi Kenshin

01-20-2006, 04:08

Franconicus

01-20-2006, 09:14

I think we should break off and head for the convoy. It has only two heavy units left and so should be easy to smash. We should then run immediately for port to escape what I think is a closing British trap. This way we can get a little bit more experience in for our crews and another (hopefully) relatively bloodless victory.
I think we have to calculate exactly what we can attack withoiut being caught by the Brits. I cannot do it but I think Kurt is the right person for it.

Even a small victory would help, esp. if we can damage the convoy too. The RN would desperatly search for an opportunity for revenge and then we could possibly trap them.

I was thinking about the radio massages. I know thatthe marine has a very good discipline in this issue (compared with the air force), but it is critical anyway. So if we cannot avoid it completly why not make some faked messages. We have the Zeps out there and maybe we could ask the subs for this favour too. Let them pretend they all are man-o-wars or groups of battleships. This could cover the real messages. :idea2:

AggonyDuck

01-20-2006, 11:11

Well I'd either prefer 2 or 3, but I think we will see the RN coming up with all the forces they can muster. So that's why I prefer nr.3 for now. Try to inflict some more losses to the Brits and pull back when they 8 ships arrive.

King Kurt

01-20-2006, 11:33

Initially my thoughts were to pursue the English forces, but on reflection it is time to head for port. We must always remember that we are not in an even fight - the english fleet outnumbers us nearly 2 to 1, so if we loose 3 ships to their 5 it hurts us more than the English. Let's look at the score currently - we have sunk an old battleship, some light forces and badly damaged 3 other battleships - probably old ones as they are with Drednaught. We have damage to 3 battlecruisers which will put them out of action for a few weeks.
We have 9 battleships and 4 battlecruisers - 5 if you count derrflinger. To our knowledge, the english have 5 battleships (3 damaged) and a battlecruiser with 8 more units on the way. My guess is that those ships are 4 battlecruisers and 4 QE class battleships. The QEs are particuarly dangerious, being the best the english have - at least comprable to our baden class. So all of a sudden we are in at best an even fight - all for the possibility of sinking 3 old battleships - ships that would be out of action for months due to their damage.
So, let us take the plaudits for a sucessful action, we are in front in the sinking and damage stakes, the PR will boost our standing and fleet morale and the whole action has been excellent "on the job" training. Perhaps our light forces could be aggressive towards the damaged units - but it is the morning - different if it was night and if the english blunder after us they might even stumble on to our minefields.~:cheers:

Franconicus

01-20-2006, 12:50

agreed!
We are outnumbered; so our strategy should be 'Hit and Run'.
So far: well done!

Ludens

01-20-2006, 12:53

The British ships are faster than ours, so aborting the action when they finally show up is a bad idea. I therefor agree with King Kurt (though I admit the situation is not entirely clear to me).

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 13:07

Observe my 1337 skills with Paint...

https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4934/battle0kz.th.jpg (https://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=battle0kz.jpg)
So you see you can't head for the convoy as you are already doing that. But remember that the scale is not correct. THe enemy large force and battleships are still outside sightingrange.

The British battleships are not faster than yours, their battlescruisers are and the battleship Canada (24 knots).

Dreadnought was old (the oldest), but you have determined that the group also contained Orion and Monarch, and what seems to be Neptune. The first two are pretty modern, with superfiring turrets, from 1912, while Neptune is perhaps not much older but of an inferior design where only the rear turrets are superfiring.

So far:

3: 1 (1pain1duck) and 5: 1 (King Kurt)

Franconicus

01-20-2006, 13:12

Looking at this excellent tactical map it is clear that we have to retreat. Maybe we can tell the HQ the position of the English ships, esp. the convoy. Maybe a submarine is near. (Yeah, I know we cannot command them, but we can help them, can't we?)

King Kurt

01-20-2006, 13:45

The map confirms my thoughts - any pursuit pulls us more westwards with the northern force threatening to cut off our route to port. We have bloodyed the nose and now it is time to quit while we are ahead.~:cheers:

discovery1

01-20-2006, 13:49

Oh. Yeah, it would be a good time to get going. 5

Mr White

01-20-2006, 13:57

As have been said before, losing ships is a bigger loss to us than to the RN so we should be conservative with them. Is it worth risking a substantial part of our fleet to sink ships who'll be out for months? We have to remember that we are playing against human opponents! They won't just risk losing ships without some chance of a return.

I say withdraw and wait for a new opportunity.

BTW good thinking Franconicus, every sunken ship is a victory for us.

Rodion Romanovich

01-20-2006, 14:15

I agree, our best option is no. 5, to retreat with the major ships.

The interesting question is however any of our "support units" of different kinds could do any damage to follow up the success so far. That is, if zeppelins or smaller ships could achieve anything while our main ships retreat to port.

I didn't really understand above whether our zeppelin problems involved just one zeppeliner or if it forced the entire force of them to fall back soon. But if some of them have still got the resources to do so, we might be able to use them for bombing the now unguarded enemy convoy. As far as I recall convoy ships weren't that well armed in the period, and lacked anti-aircraft weaponry completely? If so, the zeppelins could perhaps manage to carry out some limited bombing operations over the convoy without risking to take losses. While it probably won't cause any noteworthy damage, we might score a lucky hit, or if not, nothing is really lost.

As for the smaller ships it seems from above info that they can't readily be manouvered to do anything due to the daylight as King Kurt pointed out, and the position of the convoy and damaged enemy ships makes it really difficult to access them without risking their safety, and maybe they won't even be able to get close to the damaged enemies at all in which case it would only be negative for us.

Kagemusha

01-20-2006, 14:17

I agree numer 5.The morale should be boosted with our minor victory.Lets go home now.Let them English chace us and sail to our mines.

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 14:36

Only a single zeppeliner was struck, and has since ditched off Heligoland. A complete loss but at least the crew was saved.

I guess I can let you give the info to the Admiralty which will perhaps then give it on to the U-Boat service.
Also if you want I could let a couple zeppeliners bomb the convoy...

Rodion Romanovich

01-20-2006, 15:08

Also if you want I could let a couple zeppeliners bomb the convoy...

Yes please :2thumbsup:

Ludens

01-20-2006, 15:12

Thanks, Kraxis.

I go with the general opinion and say we withdraw. However, I would like to know our options for doing some more damage to either battleships or convoy with our supporting units. Can we send out a force of destroyers without too much risk of losing them?

King Kurt

01-20-2006, 15:40

Idealy our light forces should move to the North east to attempt a torpedo attack on the 8 units coming from the north. This might get a lucky hit, but more likely it will force them to turn towards the west/north west, forcing them away from our retreating fleet. Personally, I would not attack with the Zeps - they are unlikely to do any damage and may be damaged themselves - we should protect this asset and use it for its primary use - recon.~:cheers:

Lord Winter

01-20-2006, 17:20

Don't attack with the zeppelins lets retreat and not risk anymore losses. If an opportunity presents it self we should take it thou.
So 5

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 17:33

Satisfaction

You look on for a few minutes, noting with a good deal of pleasure that the gunners of Baden and Bayern are quite accurate. By now they hit the last ship in the line, Orion, repeatedly. Meanwhile the battlecruiers have spread out their fire with Hindenburg dealing with the battlecruiser, identified with Australia, and the others firing at the enemy ships in succession with both Seydlitz and Von der Tann dealing with the first battleship, Neptune.
But you have that tingling feeling that it is time to pull back, the enemy might have more forces on station than you know of, and with the large formation to the north, plowing at you, you are certain: It is time to end this.
You order a 16 point (180 degrees) tack to starboard, meaning each ship will turn at the point you began to turn thus keeping the formation intact, if somewhat slow.
You order the zeppelieners near the convoy to attempt bombing, perhaps it will throw off the British, perhaps even sinking a few ships. You also inform the Admiralty that three or four enemy heavy ships are wounded, heading for Scapa Flow. If there are any U-Boats nearby they would present a favourable target.

In between your forces the light forces of both sides play their deadly game. The enemy destroyers attempt at laying down a smokescreen while your topedoboats and light cruisers attempt to stop them. The last two enemy light cruisers try to cover the destroyers but your light cruisers are overwhelming them.

As you tack to starboard you get to fire with all guns in succession, Orion taking the brunt of the punishment, meanwhile your secondary guns target the enemy detroyers and light cruisers. Next Bayern completes her turn also ripping into Orion and the light forces. As the fourth ship, Grosser Kurfürst completes her turn and Markgraf fires off a broadside you see Orion suffer a serious explosion in her rear turrets.

Meanwhile the battlecruisers have also turned to give broadsides for as long as possible. Australia turning with them, protecting the battleships suffer a succession of hits, and eventually her rear superstructure is burning seriously, corditefire perhaps and she has a list. But her own broadsides hit Von der Tann several times with plenty damage as a result.
Neptune having suffered greatly in the first contact with your main force begin a lazy turn, but then she is obscured by smoke. And the fire is directed at Monarch.

At 10:22 you finally break off contact and behind you the two British light cruisers are flaming wrecks along with two destroyers in a slowly sinking state, but one of your light cruisers, Pillau has been seriously damaged, as she took three hits from a big ship, and she can't keep up. You station three somewhat damaged torpedoboats with her as they move to the east.
Just then your rearmost ship, Moltke, reports that she has spotted two ships from the northwest and others coming down from the north. The enemy is here.

At 10:45 Pillau reports being taken under fire from enemy ships coming at her rapidly. She has ordered the torpedoboats to run while she lays down smoke and expects to get sunk.
For minutes you follow this action to the rear of you and it seems fo a while that Pillau will make it, as her smoke obscures her. But then after 15 mintes she suffers a long succession of hits which brings her to a halt.

At 10:54 you meet up with Derfflinger and her destroyers coming to meet you.

Feeling the enemy might chase you to the world's end you call up the reserve force and order them to meet you, but it will take some time before they will be able to help you.
For an hour the chase is kept up, but the enemy comes closer rapidly. You don't know how many they are, but it is obvious that they are battlecruisers.
Trying to keep damage to the least you position your own battlecruisers in the front while you expect Kaiserin and König Albert to take the fight up with their three available turrets facing rearwards.

At 11:29 you get a report from Z22 and V86 that they have begun to bomb the convoy. It is responding as if it is under attack from heavy ships, the destroyers fanning out to findthe hidden assailant, but they have only struck a small merchant.

At 11:41 the lead enemy ship opens up, but her shots are falling short, and at 11:56 Kaiserin finally responds with König Albert following suit three minutes later. The fight is equal enough when the second British ship opens up and the first hit is scored on Kaiserin at 12:13 followed quickly but a rapid succession of hits on the lead British ship. This goes on for half an hour, with more ships joining in.

At 12:15 Derfflinger observes smoke to the southeast, and at 12:45 it is clear that another three battleships are coming at you. Derfflinger and Hindenburg open up on them and they respond in kind, but your ships can let at them with their broadsides while they can only present their forward guns.
Instead of turning to follow you they charge at your line for many minutes, enduring accurate fire. Finally at 13:02 they turn onto your course, by then they are supported by an airship, spotting for them.
You curse this, and order the nearest zeppeliner to head for you at once, even if it is low on fuel. You tell it you will tow it should it run out. But it will still take a considerable time before it can reach you, and meanwhile you observe as Derfflinger, Hindenburg and Moltke are straddled.
You order everything not engaging the British battlecruisers to open up on these three ships at once. The staggered splashes indicate some confusion, but sadly has no impact on the British firing as the airship still spots for them, negating the need for a clear sight to the targets.
At 13:20 they hit Moltke several times, knocking out the forward turret. And not untill 13:27 comes the first hit on them. The middle ship is struck by three 15 inch shells, and now you have the range perfectly and straddle them. For several minutes the the three battleships are struck time and again by several ships, until they finally break off. Meanwhile the British coming up from the rear break off too, tacking to starboard.

You take this chance to turn towards the reserve force, meanwhile you count the enemy force. 8 ships... And then you wonder if perhaps not they have the weakest ships to the rear. Perhaps it is possible to damage them?

The tally is good, Dreadnought sunk along with four light cruisers and six destroyers. Serious damage is estimated on five battleships and a battlecruiser while less damage is estimated on a battleship and three battlecruisers.
Your losses is the light cruiser Pillau, serious damage to two battlecruisers and lighter damage to three battleships and a battlecruiser.

What will you do?

A)
1: Reengage the force that is obviously smaller and has been recieving serious damage (you hope) to the frist three ships.
2: Turn to engage the smaller threeship force. Send the battlecruisers (less Derfflinger) to tie and perhaps slow them down so the main force can deal with them. The enemy battlecruisers have obviously become aware that you are much stronger andwill not likely engage you.
3: Go home and lick your wounds. A few ships have suffered quite a bit of damage.
4: Send home the most damaged ships, Hindenburg, Derfflinger, Von der Tann and Kaiserin. The rest will keep their distance and let the British run. Then they will head for the convoy with a lead of three light cruisers and four torpedoboats.

B)
1: Recall the zeppeliners in full.
2: Recall them but keep an eye on the convoy, the smaller force and the battlecruisers.
3: Keep the screen out in place, follow potential targets.
(mind you the weather is slowly clearing up, so they zeppeliners might not be able to stay hidden).

AggonyDuck

01-20-2006, 18:22

A) 4

B) 3

Kommodus

01-20-2006, 19:30

My goodness you guys are timid. Retreat now, with a chance to deal a crippling blow to the British navy? I understand the reasons for this, and they are logical, but I would opt for a bolder tactic. For the present situation, I like option #2. In addition to hopefully sinking more of the fleeing British ships, it gives us a chance to catch even more enemy ships between two of our forces.

Granted, it's risky. If the British have more ships nearby than the ones we know about, it could turn out particularly bad for us. But if the British are more spread out, as I suspect they are, we can deal with them piecemeal as they arrive.

Edit: Oh dang, while I was typing this Kraxis posted an update. Ah well.

Rodion Romanovich

01-20-2006, 19:32

Tough one this time...

For A, I think no. 2 seems to risky. Trying to slow down some of their faster ships until our reinforcements arrive could end in two ways - either the enemy stays until our reinforcements arrive, and then escape, or they escape right away, with the result that we possibly get our battle cruisers damaged without achieving too much. No. 4 isn't a good idea either IMO, as the convoy is still quite far out and the enemy might be able to regroup their retreating forces out there, possibly joining them with some reinforcements we don't know about yet, and will be able to strike the forces we send after the convoy. The zeppeliners might also have fooled them to think we've got a force out there that we're trying to use to trap them. When they find out there's no force out there - and the clearer weather will reveal that to them soon enough - they'll probably be able to destroy our weakened force if it goes after the convoy having sent home the damaged ships.

The question is no.1 or no.3 - should we follow up these successes or retreat? As I see it, going after the three ship force would allow us to cause some damage, but in return that forces us to keep the zeppeliner screen out to make sure the enemy aren't regrouping and reinforcing in preparation for another strike. Keeping the zeppeliners out will probably reveal to the British how we achieved this victory, and also make it impossible to later use them as effectively for recon or deception (they thought the zeppeliners at the convoy were ships), and it will also be possible that our zeppeliners suffer losses in the clear weather. If we retreat we can call back all zeppeliners for refueling etc, and the enemy will hopefully not realize how effective they were to us in terms of deception and recon, plus there's minimal risk of losses for them.

So it's a tie between A1 B3 and A3 B1. Looking once more at the results of the day settles it - we've had enough successes today. We should repair our ships and train gunnery and similar in preparation for the - I assume - inevitable British revenge.

My choices are: A3 B1

aw89

01-20-2006, 19:58

A) This could be a golden opportunity to even the odds, but with some care, I think 2. would be best.

B) Even if the weather is clearing some intelligence is needed, especially against a trap, so my choice is 2.

Kommodus

01-20-2006, 20:41

I'm gonna go with:

A) 4
B) 2

I think this gives us the best chance to do more significant damage today without risking too much. If the British are regrouping near the convoy and/or bringing in more reinforcements, we'll know about it through the zeppelins and therefore won't be caught walking into a trap. It keeps the zeppelins from the worst dangers while continuing to make them useful.

Kraxis

01-20-2006, 23:32

Results so far:

A) 2:1, 3:1, 4:2 (ok... I will revert to numericals and figures in that order next time)

B) 1:1, 2:2, 3:1

A4 B2 is winning but everything can change with so many possible posters out there.

You can always change your mind, but be sure to say to which options (that way you can help out a minority you would rather like to win, even if you don't like it that much), and if you happen to do that while I'm posting and update... Then that is just tough luck.

Kagemusha

01-20-2006, 23:57

I would say A:3) and B:2).We dont have anykind of tactical edge anymore so we shouldnt stay in a slug fest with the British.Also Protect the Zeppeliners,they are for gathering info and so they shouldnt be put in harms way.

Flavius Clemens

01-21-2006, 01:13

A2, B2
Try for a further quick win against the 3 ship force before we finally scoot for home. If I have followed the directions right, attacking the larger force takes us further away from home, and attacking the convoy even more so. Defeating the 8 ships will take time, and we can only push our luck so long before the various British detachments will be concentrated against us. However I think the risk of taking on the 3 ships is worthwhile, as we will outnumber them heavily for a while. Don't want to hang around too long and let the British regroup though, so any delays or problems and it's time to head for home and a celebration.

Lord Winter

01-21-2006, 02:12

A3 B2 Lets leave now the British navy can take more loses then us without the same effect plus they could turn the tide of the battle around and realy due some damage to us. We did what we came to do lets leave and regroup. If we lose here we have a great chance of losing the interactive history.

Kraxis

01-21-2006, 02:49

Uesugi Kenshin

01-21-2006, 03:04

I'd say we've taken enough risks and proven ourselves worthy foes, but for now we must head home and refit. Hopefully those damages British ships will be out of it long enough to be effectively removed from any future engagements and we can strike them again, at our convenience instead of being drawn into a trap like we have. There is always tomorrow and for now we should have gained some more influence with the higher ups and have certainly achieved a profitable loss to gain ratio.

3 and 2.

discovery1

01-21-2006, 06:39

We've done enough for this day. Let's head home. And recall the zep for rest and refit.

Lord Winter

01-21-2006, 07:47

OT but what was Interactive histories I-III about?

Mr White

01-21-2006, 10:03

Let us see what we've accomplished today:
We've accomplished a victory, far from a crippling one but still. This will grant us better morale with the troops, more influence with the admirality and a somewhat better balance between our numbers and theirs ( still greatly in the NR's advantage).

Why did we accomplish this?
Better gunnery, better tactics and most of all better intelligence.

The Brits have an edge on us on nearly every terrain. The only real advantage we have is our intelligence at sea (= the zeppelins) only the NR doesn't know that. So if we want to keep this advantage we should keep the Brits ignorant ( As Legio said). Withdraw everything now and let the NR lick its wounds if we want to use our zepps safely again. Opportunities will rise again as the Brits will want take revenge.

Ludens

01-21-2006, 14:03

Yes, I think we have done well enough for day 1. I don't fancy getting into an (roughly) even fight with the British - we are disadvantaged enough as it is - and I can't help but think that they have more ships available. So option A3 it is.

I also think we should conserve our zeppelin, and since the Brits might not be aware of them (or at least the fact that we are using them extensively) we should recall them all. No need to scout if we are safe. I go for option B1. I do wonder, though: you make it sounds as if every blimp was sent to sea. Don't we have a reserve?

Kraxis

01-21-2006, 15:31

OT but what was Interactive histories I-III about?
Hehe... I and II was about Hannibal, the first started after Cannae and ended with a forced peace on Rome. II was after a victorious Zama and the story was about to take us into Hispania once more, but then I couldn't go on.

Long pause...

III was Antiochus' Dilemma, you can search for it here. It started just prior to the battle of Thermopylae in 191BC (but in this case the battle never happened), through a lot of convoluted maneuverings the large Seleucid army marched through Thrace and Macedonia until sitting in Epirus while the Romans ravaged Asia Minor and an imposter took power in Antioch. Eventually Antiochus got killed by his own generals as they had long realzed he was only leading them to doom.

All the zeps you had ready were at sea (with a number at home acting as replacements for refueling zeps). Thus you can't demand a more active search...

Flavius Clemens

01-21-2006, 16:09

Flavius, all attackvectors will take you away from safety. The threeship group is running to the west, the 8-ship group is running northerly and the convoy is about northwest. Home is east, then south (southeast is uncleared minefields). In any case I take it doesn't change your choices.

I had assumed the smaller group had turned east to get away from us and would then have to manoeuver round to get home. In these circumstances, and having slept on it, I'll change to head for home now and withdraw the Zeppelins, and hope a lucky U-boat or two adds icing to the cake by finishing off one of the damaged vessels before it makes it home.

I'm not sure we can assume the Brits won't already have put two and two together and realised we were using Zeppelins for scouting. They must realise we've either been lucky or have good intelligence.

Ludens

01-21-2006, 16:49

All the zeps you had ready were at sea (with a number at home acting as replacements for refueling zeps). Thus you can't demand a more active search...
Excellent. I was afraid that there would be no replacements so our screen would fall apart when the zeps run out of fuel.

Kraxis

01-21-2006, 19:19

Battle Finished

Watching the enemy disengage you come to the realization that the battlecruisers might just be a lure. Just like your own had been earlier today. You order the reserve force to meet you as you speed for the Heligoland gap.
From the rear Kaiserin reports that the three smoking enemy battleships have disengaged competely.

So the battle is over you think. Time to consider what to do with the zeps.
Their info has been invaluable in the recent battle, in fact you get the feeling they saved you from a considerable cost when they spotted the British battlecruisers coming at you. There is no telling what might have happened if they had crossed your 'T'... At the same time you perfectly understand that the British must not know that your zeps have been this effective, but you hold no illusions that the British are unaware of them. Both the scouting of Dover and the collision over the British forward force made it clear to both sides thatthe zeps were out.
But maybe that can used to your advantage? You think so, while you rest the British will be watching the skies, looking for zeps. Yes... You order the recall of the zeppeliners but keep three on station to watch the convoy, the large and the small force. Perhaps this will give off valuable info.

At 13:49 the British battlecruisers are finally out of range of all guns and the sea becomes silent once more. You call for a score from Kaiserin and König Albert. It takes a few minutes before Kaiserin reports that it has been hit 9 times, and König Albert reports 5 hits, but neither ship are sure how many times they or the ships in front of them hit the British battlecruisers.

Sailing at 21 knots you press your ships, but you seriously don't want another engagement now. You are up on points and want to keep it that way. Estimates say that your losses will quickly be repaired, no need to make it take longer.
Suddenly Kaiserin reports seing the British airship head for you, following you at a distance. Shortly after, the light cruiser Brummer reports the plume of smoke to the northwest are in fact not moving away but getting closer. Apparently the British have once more turned around and are again chasing you actively.

You think it over. The British are outnumbered and have less armour, they can't possibly win, so they must have stronger forces nearby, but then why haven't the zeppeliners noticed that? Hm... There is not time for such considerations, now you have to deal with an enemy coming from behind.
Since you are sailing on a direct course for the reserve force there should be no problems if you were to lead from the rear. That way you can bring the weaker and damaged Kaiserin and König Albert to the fore while your own Baden along wih Bayern take up stations at the rear. Yes, that will be the plan. To go into battleline would only bring the stronger enemy forces closer and that would be dangerous.

Within a few minutes the four ships have changed positions, and you are now sailing on the second ship from the rear. The British ships are coming closer still, and at 14:16 Bayern opens up. When her third salvo splashes near the front enemy ship she responds, quickly followed by the second ship and then your own Baden joins in.
These rearchases are confusing and not very easy to conduct, but at 14:27 and impact is seen on the third British ship that is not able to repond. But the British have their airship spotting for them, and splashes are surrounding your two ships. You are straddled.

This goes on until 14:43 when the British look like they are turning to port, but end up creating a fourship line abreast. You notice that two of the ships has a small collision and three hits are recorded on the ship moving to the port side. But now the enemy has numbers on her side and it becomes increasingly hard to keep the range with the splashes disrupting the view of the enemy.
It becomes increasingly troublesome and you fear a hit to the engines or screwpropellers. Finally Bayern suffers a hit, this time to her casemate to the rear of the her 'C' turret. This takes out two 5.9 inch guns, but has no impact on her capacity to fight currently. You quickly make up your mind to do something and orders the two relatively unscathed battlecruisers Moltke and Seydlitz to move off to the side and present their broadsides, and move ahead again when they recieve attention.
They move out and blast away with their full broadsides, and incredibly one of them hit the portmost British ship under the waterline. Quickly they come under fire and as they turn and retreat again Moltke is hit.
Continually for an hour this keeps up with your battlecrusiers going back and forth. The dimming lights and shifting targets makes it almost as hard for the British to fire accurately as it is for you. And at 15:50 the British finally break off, just as the reserve force was about to enter the battle, clearly the airship warned them.

Tired after a long day you join up with the reserve force and head back to port. The zeppeliners on station report that the British are returning to port as well. About this time the zeppeliner trcking the three battleships head home as the British coast is getting close and the chance of fighters is getting high.
Late in the evening you get a message from U-22:
"Observed four battleships, three seriously damaged, just as indicated. Fired a spread of four torpedoes. Observed two hits on trailing ship and one on middle-rear ship. Trailing ship halted and listing heavily, will sink. Fear detection."
The zeppeliner charged with following the battlecruisers noticed this and reports that the trailing battleship indeed sank later, but also that the British found the U-boat and forced it to surrender.

You enter port late in the night, no crowds recieve you, but you are too tired to even notice or care. You quickly disembark and turn in in your office landside.
In the morning you wake up to an orderly shaking you. As you sit up he hands you a number of messages. The first is from the Admiralty, they can hardly contain their joy, but they wonder why you didn't finish the wounded forces, both times or even turn on the battlecruisers. They are also disturbed that now the British are using airships to such an effect, but sadly they promiss you nothing, mentioning the upcoming 'operation' is going to take it all. But you get the destinct feeling that they are much more open to your ideas now.

After that you go through the lists of ammo-expenditure, losses and time to repair ships. You are pleasantly surprised that Derfflinger will not need much time in dock, but then again she was practically pulled from the battle early on.
Derfflinger: Will need two weeks in drydock.
Moltke: Will need two weeks of repairs. Can sail right away.
Von der Tann: Will need a month in drydock.
Hindenburg: Will need three weeks of repairs. Can sail right away.
Seydlitz: Minor repairs. Can sail right away.
Baden: Minor repairs. Can sail right away.
Bayern: A week of serious repairs to superstructure. Can sail right away.
Kaiserin: One month in drydock.
König Albert: Two weeks of repairs. Can sail right away.

Your losses are 1052 killed and wounded in total. 442 are from Pillau alone, any survivors are expected to be in POW camps by now. Just like the 459 survivors of Dreadnought.

The morale of the ships is high and the mood is light despite the losses. The battle also gave your crews needed practice in maneuvers and gunnery.

What will you do?

1) Manpowersituation. Sadly you can't rearrange the crews from lesser to superior positions, but 100 sailors are ready right away. You lack 510 sailors.
A: Pull them from the trainingunits. This will impact future replacements, but they are well trained and ready to serve. Will cost influence.
B: Pull them from the non-finished sailors from the trainingunits.
C: Take them from the secondary forces. They are trained sailors and might know some of the systems, but in general they are unfamiliar with the equipment.
D: Let the replacements take the time they need.

2) Ships and repairs.
A: You need as many ships sailing and battleready as soon as possible. Pull influence to give the sailing units priority over the docked units.
B: You need everything you can get as fast as possible, and the docked units are important. Pull influence to give the docked units priority over the sailing units for repairs.
C: Don't try to affect the repairs.

3) Warsituation.
A: Lead the 9 battleships of the reserve force on maneuvers and gunnerypractice. They never got any training while you fought your battle.
B: Stay home for the time being. Your men need some time to rest and brag.
C: Lead out Baden and Bayern along with 9 unharmed battleships. Take advantage of the high mood and attack any British force nearby. They won't expect such a move so soon after a battle. Will sail in four days.

4) Zeppeliners. The remaining zeppeliners returned home in the night after their targets got too far away.
A: Let them rest for four days and ten send them out once more. Full search.
B: Limited search over the Heligoland Bight. See if you have captured it.
C: Remain at home for the time being.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-21-2006, 19:46

Sweet we sank their battleship!:2thumbsup: Do we have any information on what type of battleship the U-Boat sank, or at the very least how modern it is?

1) Not sure what we should do about this, Kraxis please don't count a vote from me on this yet, I'll let you know if I change my mind.

2)Probably C, but I'm not 100%, I'd like to wait and see what others have to say about this, don't count a vote yet.

3)C, the Tommies should be in port licking their wounds and if we send the Zeppelins out we should be able to avoid getting trapped as we did with the previous engagement.

4)A, get them out there to spot for the Battleship force, they will be essential to the safety of our battleships and hopefully we'll be able to spot a convoy to raid or something.

Kraxis if I haven't said anything between now and 11pm GMT-5 (or whenever you update) take these votes, I want to see what others have to say if I can and then possibly change my votes. Thanks

Kraxis

01-21-2006, 20:02

You don't know which ship got sunk, but if you look over the last few chapters you might be able to string together which ship it is.

You know this: There were four of them, they were seriously damaged and the sunk ship was last in the line.

Rodion Romanovich

01-21-2006, 22:42

- 1C - taking them from the secondary forces enables us to get going quickly if needed. I think we can expect a British large-scale revenge operation soon so we can't wait too long. If we take them from the secondary forces we also probably get the most skilled replacements we can get at this time, which is probably quite useful. New recruits and trainees will then eventually fill up the vacancies created among the secondary forces for us
- 2A - I think it's important to get these ships ready quickly, the British response may come very soon, earlier than we expect
- 3A - Despite the possible gains we could get, I'm against going out again right away - the British might think the same way we are - that the opposition won't expect a response so soon. Maybe they'll send out a large fleet to prepare a revenge very soon. If we're carrying out some insignificant raid we'll not be able to mount a very good response to such an attack, and the British may use their speed to isolate the raiding force from the main force in which case we'll take very critical losses. It's also important for the forces to get at least a little time for celebration for the sake of morale. I suggest keeping most units at home while letting the units who stayed at home get some training at gunnery and manouvering, giving the heroes a chance to rest and celebrate. If our zeppeliners cover the approaches to them we'll know if any chance to redirect them to action will be possible, in which case we should again let the zeppeliners go out in full force so we know what we've got to deal with.
- 4 new option D - if we are only training, resting and repairing in preparation for a British larger-scale attack we don't need that much coverage, but I suggest a limited coverage of approaches to our training units and our main harbors, after all we don't want to risk anything and what to find out early if any enemy is approaching. But be ready to develop full coverage again if we see any British activity at all.

Kraxis

01-21-2006, 23:45

AntiochusIII

01-22-2006, 00:06

Kraxis, if we do not affect the recruitment and repairs, what is expected to happen to these quarters? I assume the repairs will be finished as listed above, correct? What about the recruitment?

For now, though, my choice will be:

1. C) Learning the system isn't too hard especially since the ships that need the crews themselves will be out of operation for a while, adequate time to make the experienced crews from the secondary units familiar with how the ships work. The secondary units will replenish their crews in time with new recruits. The primary units come first since we're actively fighting the now-vengeful British fleet. Seamanship takes much longer time to learn.

2. C) For now, my choice will be this. I'd like to preserve the influence for future uses as small-scale victories that give us these influences will not likely be achieved for a while with the other side becoming naturally much more cautious.

3. A) Those ships did not have a chance for gunnery practice at all. This is our edge and we need them to be skilled. Besides, the reserve forces will then be ready for any small scale maneuvers and operations that might need to be conducted if the British decide for an early revenge counter-attack. The crews in the battles, on the other hand, will need to rest and brag for future battles to come.

4. B) Since Kraxis states that this choice means limited short-range scouting that also keep an eye on the reserve forces in training, and we don't want our training ships being catched off-guard, this choice will be. Make sure they get much rest, however, we don't need information THAT much with no active operations in the German Ocean.

Flavius Clemens

01-22-2006, 00:23

Do we know how long 1 D would take?

2 - Still chewing this over, but inclined to go for C.

3 - A. We need the reserves able to make the best contribution possible, and the crews who have seen action deserve R&R.

4 - Agree with AntiochusIII B) Since Kraxis states that this choice means limited short-range scouting that also keep an eye on the reserve forces in training, and we don't want our training ships being catched off-guard, this choice will be. Make sure they get much rest, however, we don't need information THAT much with no active operations in the German Ocean.

Beyond this, I think we need to start considering what we might do about the increased British use of airships. Can we improvise some enhanced AA equipment on our ships? Do we have any chance of deploying aircraft (not necessarily specialist fighters given that the targets are large and not maneourverable)?

Kagemusha

01-22-2006, 00:44

Nice to see we got out from the Sea in one peace and with a minor victory in our pocket.~:cheers: 1.C) Those guys have been in the secondary vessels for long enough.Now its their time to get on the big boats.These guys should be motivated,becouse we trust them and the veterans can show them the ropes.
2.A) repair first the ones that can sail.So we have always maximum use on our ships.
3.B)If the Zeppelins are home the boats should be too.We dont want to sail in English trap.
4.A Let the Zeppelin crews rest and inspect the ships if there are any damages.

Kraxis

01-22-2006, 00:46

All the ships in need of repairs have lost crewmembers, though Baden and Seydlitz got theirs from the 100 ready sailors as they only needed a few men.

If you do nothing to either ships and crews they will slowly proceed. The ships will be finished around the time indicated, and cremembers will refill their ships at a rate of about 100 every week.

Your battleships all carry AA in some meassure, not much in general, from two 88mm guns to around six on the later battleships. Most of the newer light cruisers also carry a few 88s. But it must be considered rather limited what there is of AA. Also it must be assumed that the airships will know to stay away far enough. Like yours have (though it has not been needed with the clouds).

There are a few seaplane tenders but I can't find any info on them being used. It seems they are in fact unuseable.
But be mindful that the British light cruiser Furious is currently being converted to a carrier...

Kagemusha

01-22-2006, 01:00

So we have full crews in 5 weeks?

Rodion Romanovich

01-22-2006, 08:31

Legio, the zeppeliner option B is basically a cover of the approaches to the harbours. But they will also see if the British have conceeded the Bight to you. In practical terms the will only fly a short distance out to sea, stationed around Heligoland (a nice spot to seek safety in case of trouble).

Ok, then I mean 4B.

Two interesting thought have occured to me:
- maybe next time we should attach a couple of zeppeliners directly to the ship force. They could be an effective way of dealing with British using airships for spotting, which was critical in the last battle
- In ships sunk we're leading, but in ships damaged the British are leading. This means the British still have the initiative during the coming three weeks. We can probably expect them very soon.

Finally the news about Furious are more than just a little unnerving. Since our AA is limited we need to think of a special way of countering the carrier. The carrier can not only effectively be used to hunt down our scouting zeppeliners, but also give them an extra advantage in the normal ship to ship engagements. We need to find a way of somehow isolating the carrier. Do we know anything about it's possible weaknesses? Speed, armament in terms of guns, armor quality etc.?

Ludens

01-22-2006, 11:48

1C
2C
3A
4B

I think now would be a good time to resume our long-term strategy discussion. We've won a minor victory, but If we try to sink the British one battleship at a time, the war will be over before we are finished. Does anyone have an idea about what the British strategy is, based on their actions during our last engagement?

Kraxis

01-22-2006, 14:31

You only know that Furious is an odd ship. She is a Large Light Cruiser, almost as big as some battleships, weighing in at 22,000 tons fully loaded. And that her original armament was to be two 18 inch guns. You also know that her capacity won't be great.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-22-2006, 15:18

Well it seems like the British want to lead a large portion of our force out into empty water and then trap it, even if they have to take initial heavy losses. Since they have the advantage in terms of numbers they can afford to trade a couple of ships for the chance to encircle, trap, and annihilate us.

Then again their recent failure could convince them to try something different, or they could decide that two battleships is a small price to pay for a near encirclement of much of our heavy surface forces.

Flavius Clemens

01-22-2006, 15:30

But be mindful that the British light cruiser Furious is currently being converted to a carrier...

I believe historically the Ark Royal was in the Med at this time. Do we have any indication if that's still the case, given that we're causing more trouble than we did in real life? If I were the RN team I'd be trying to get it to the North Sea, just like we've been trying to influence the use of the U-boat fleet.

I like the idea of attaching a Zep or two for air defence and spotting next time we aim for a fleet engagement.

Given the rate of crew replacement and repair times I'd like to go for a roughly 50:50 mix of 1 C and D - this should be enough to get all the ships fully manned by the time they are repaired.

Considering the British strategy - do they need to do anything other than contain us to win? Unless we actively pose a threat to them they have no real motivation to risk battle with us, so the onus remains on us to provoke them, but on our terms. Though it may be the opposing team wants glory and will therefore be aggressive.

Kraxis

01-22-2006, 23:22

I believe historically the Ark Royal was in the Med at this time. Do we have any indication if that's still the case, given that we're causing more trouble than we did in real life? If I were the RN team I'd be trying to get it to the North Sea, just like we've been trying to influence the use of the U-boat fleet.
Indeed, but it is still there. As you the British commadner has no direct control over deployment over the forces outside the Grand Fleet, but like you he might use influence to gain special favours.

discovery1

01-23-2006, 03:31

how is the AA coverage of our naval bases and zep hangers?

Franconicus

01-23-2006, 08:18

Some comments:
1) Kraxis, you are really fast. One lazy weekend and I missed the whole battle!
2) Hail to our submarines!!
3) Don't worry about the carrier. This is not WW2, it is still WW1. They can be a pain for our Zeps but I do not think they can bother our ships.

Answers:
1) Manpowersituation. B: Pull them from the non-finished sailors from the trainingunits. We will be some weeks in the harbor and the ships will train them as good as possible!

2) Ships and repairs.

B: The sailings need two weeks and the docks four. Giving the docks priority could mean three weeks for all - perfect!

3) Warsituation.
A: Lead the 9 battleships of the reserve force on maneuvers and gunnerypractice. They never got any training while you fought your battle.

4) Zeppeliners.
A: Let them rest for four days and ten send them out once more. Full search.
The English are furious. They will make a mistake! We just have to wait and see. (Maybe a cup of tea or two!:laugh4: )

King Kurt

01-23-2006, 12:09

Quick post - no time. We should regroup over the next couple of weeks. Don't take crew from the light forces - they are too vital - if necessary use crew from ships under repair. Keep the Zeps on patrol - knowledge is power. Restart training - we can't overtrain.

Kraxis

01-25-2006, 03:45

2nd of March

Yesterday contained a lot of decisions for you, but you felt that you needed to deal with your problems fast, and as such you quickly ordered the proper replacements from the secondary forces. The first sailors arrived this morning. Their grizzled looks and powerful demeanor made it obvious they were engineers. While you don't know how they will do their morale, and that of the rest of the fleet is superb. Fewer than normal troubles are reported from the brothels and bars, everybody being quite happy.

While you would love to get the ships out faster, you know that the resources would be pulled from another place, and that it wouldn't be likely that any ships would be repaired faster. So you decided to just let the ships be repaired in time.
The unengaged forces from last battle were still in need of much needed maneuvers and gunnery practice, so you decided to take them out to do what you had intended to do last time.
While the crews of the other ships are satisfied and proud these ships are filled with crewmen spoiling for a fight, determined to do their best. Pride swelled in your heart when you boarded Kaiser and saw the sailors standing rank and strong and their officers crisply saluting you.

At midday you began to set out at the head of the line, but before you did you sent instruction to the zepperliner commander, Colonel von Brasch, that his forces are to rest mainly and only patrol the Heligolan Bight for British forces.
At evening you enter the traininggrounds and gunneryrange. You start out by practicing the Gefechtkertswendung, used so well at Jutland thrice. On the first turn the ships only just manage it, showing their rusty abilities. But by the third turn the ships fall into line easily.
This maneuver is only practical when the entire formation needs to turn 180 degrees quickly, and you realize that it might still be rather rigid. You end up improving on it by having every second ship turn opposite of the others, effectively creating two lines. This presents more guns on the turn and more targets for the enemy to fire at, and of course would be more confusing for the enemy. Afterwards the two lines could then act independantly or join up again. You practice the two forms during the night and both eventually turn out to be handled quite well. As you thought, the crews merely needed a recap of their previously trained abilities.

The entire day of the 3rd you practice gunnery, especially accuracy. While good your gunners tend to lose their targets after achieving hits, their straddles being too loose, at least compared to what you saw from the British battleships. So you focus on that for the next day. On that day you recieve a message from the zeppeliner V23 that it has spotted a British line of ships, unkown composition and size, though it estimates perhaps as many as 10 heavy ships and as few as five, sailing slowly across the Bight, clearly strutting their stuff. The zeppeliner stays with them until nightfall, itself almost immediately spotted due to the lack of clouds now that the air comes from the south.
The same day a torpedoboat steams up at you with a report from Intelligence about the British ships.
The spies across Britain has noted a lot of ships going into drydock, or being tied down for fairly long work. Three ships are at the London docks, two in drydock and in the north, between Firth of Forth and Scapa Flow another five ships are docked or in drydock. While in Scapa Flow the spies have detected barges with equipment and special crews for repairs on moveable ships. They also report that Scapa Flow reverberates with heavy gunfire once more.
On the 5th, after resuplying ammo you begin to train loading heavily, and then firing while performing battlemaneuvers, including the two defensive maneuvers. You think they might become important later.

On the morning of the 6th of March the zeppeliner V86 on the way to its patrol area that it has spotted an airship headed for you, about 20 nautical miles northeast of you. The enemy airship flees on a northeasterly direction. The zeppelinr captain is certain that it has spotted you given his own clear view of your smokecolumns, but he is also pretty certain that it doesn't know how big a force you have.
The zeppeliner Z22 has kept a watch on the British group at a great distance, and it does look like it might be moving again, but because of the lack of clouds he is heading away.
Now is a critical time once more. You have nine battleships, eager and proud, and also welldrilled from the last few days. But they are not your most powerful ships. But these guys might need a victory as well.
Directly east of your position in the Heligoland Gap, the only secure break in the minefields.
Unfortunately the rest of the fleet is completely unready to be called out. At best two light cruisers and five torpedoboats can reach you in time.

So what will you do?

1) The zeppeliners.
A: Have V86 do it's utmost to chase down the enemy airship, but have Z22 keep it's distance from the British forces. Let them believe V86 is the only zeppeliner out there.
B: Don't bother with deception. Send Z22 in closer, but the almost clear air might result in it getting shot down.
C: Halt V86, and keep it close (will be in a very good position for spotting later as well as being in a good position to chase the enemy airship off if it returns from another angle).

2) The surface force. You have 9 battleships, 8 light cruisers and 16 torpedoboats.
A: Continue with your practice. The British will not attack an unknown force.
B: Break out! The enemy won't suspect that, and even if he does you have a good chance of getting out of the Gap before he get there, letting you cross his 'T'.
C: Speed to the Gap but stay on the inside covering it with your line. But unfortunately the southern wind will play in favour of the British in terms of spotting (your smoke), but the low winter sun will help you as it too is to the south. Of course that only matters if they come at you.

Lord Winter

01-25-2006, 05:36

1.B
2.B
We are outnumbered and the only way we are going to win is if we take chances. But if things go wrong then we should withdraw.
audacity above all :charge:

Franconicus

01-25-2006, 08:33

[B] Fewer than normal troubles are reported from the brothels and bars, ...

Come on Kraxis. that is very unlikely. Usually sailors destroy bars after a victory. If they are really quiet, this is an alarm sign :inquisitive:

What do the other think about the strength of the Tommies?

King Kurt

01-25-2006, 10:58

We should engage, but on our terms so C - the other Zep is shadowing the English and close air support will help with spotting and keep the English airship away - and B. However, we must be cautious - these are our best ships and we have not yet come across the better English ships - the QEs and the R class.
The reports of all the damaged English ships shows the sucess of the operation - but I think it is overstated - I don't think we damaged that many ships. So, if this operation damages some more, then we are working towards parity. Our oponents are being too gung ho - we must exploit this.

i am worried by the weakening of the light forces by moving the crews - we must keep a close watch on this.~:cheers:

Mr White

01-25-2006, 12:36

Ludens

01-25-2006, 12:58

Mind you I haven't made my mind up just yet about what to do,but it just feels like a trap to me (I know I'm allways to cautious but hey we're in a group and there should always be someone pointing out the risks). So we should have an escape plan of some sort.
Agreed. I don't think the British are too enthusiastic about the conclusion to our last encounter. Sure, we fled the field, but they lost far more than we did. Unles their intelligence is inaccurate (unlikely) or they think we are cowards, they should not send a weak group to our waters. We need to know how powerful this British group is and whether there are any others nearby.

1C (seems like the best of both options)
2C

Kagemusha

01-25-2006, 13:10

I agree with Ludens 1.c) and 2.c).We need to know what we are up against.

Franconicus

01-25-2006, 13:14

1 C
2 B
Let's hope for the best. These are not our best ships! Maybe they can win anyway.
Concerning the mine field: How big is it, how big is the gap, can we lay some more mines, how can we lure the English into the mines, how can we escape in case we have to?

Kraxis

01-25-2006, 14:40

Come on Kraxis. that is very unlikely. Usually sailors destroy bars after a victory. If they are really quiet, this is an alarm sign :inquisitive:
Not at all. It isn't as if they have been quiet, just not as troublesome as before. Sullen drunk sailors tend to be more easily provoked than happy drunk sailors.

The minefield is in fact British, but they have by now laid so many mines that they themselves consider it dangerous. Besides they have previously lost ships to their own mines, so it is a big no-no for them.

The Gap is not a set thing, it moves about, but it is mainly to the east of the island of Heligoland. Your sweepers keep a stretch of water clean, about 2km wide. The British know just as well as you where it is mostly, but they can't afford to try to block it as it moves about.

Kommodus

01-25-2006, 16:21

1. C

If we are heading for another engagement (as it looks like we are), we'll need it for spotting.

2. B

I'd rather not risk getting such a large portion of our force bottled up inside the minefields. We need to keep our smaller fleet more concentrated than the enemy's larger fleet. Besides, we may or may not be outnumbered - we only know the enemy has between 5 and 10 heavies. If they have fewer, this may be a chance to chalk up another minor victory. If they have more, at least we should be able to inflict some damage as we escape.

Concerning the question of the British strategy, I find it interesting that in the first engagement they were quite spread out - some ships escorting a convoy, some in harbor, others sailing around in small to medium-sized groups, presumably on patrol. They may have been trying to lure us out in order to surround us, but they may have been simply trying to cover all their bases. Either way, their losses may have convinced them to concentrate their forces a little more.

However, with so many of their ships damaged, the force in Heligoland Bight is unlikely to receive large numbers of reinforcements quickly. That's yet another reason why we should make a break for it quickly.

King Kurt

01-25-2006, 17:30

1. C

Concerning the question of the British strategy, I find it interesting that in the first engagement they were quite spread out - some ships escorting a convoy, some in harbor, others sailing around in small to medium-sized groups, presumably on patrol. They may have been trying to lure us out in order to surround us, but they may have been simply trying to cover all their bases. Either way, their losses may have convinced them to concentrate their forces a little more.

.

Kommodus is right - we should give our enemy some thought. I think their strategy was to lure us out and surround us - if we had been more adventurious that was what would have happened. The big question to my mind is where are the English's best ships - the clash last week was with the "2nd division forces" - where are the QEs and R class and the better battlecruisers like the Lion. Maybe these are the forces training at Scapa Flow - are they training towards a more specific task? - or did they expect us to put a smaller force out to intercept the convoy and were unfortunate to run into the whole fleet. This all shows that currently we should broadly keep our forces together and remain cautious and wear down the English piecemeal. When we have come close to parity then we strike at the Channel ports with the King Kurt cunning plan!!~:cheers:

Rodion Romanovich

01-25-2006, 18:57

1C
2C

2C because staying inside the gap makes it difficult for the British to use flanking manouvers. If we lie long enough inside the gap we have some room to push forward slightly before presenting our broadsides to them, giving us an ability to counter our lack of range, plus we have a very good chance of a successful retreat even if we take much damage during the engagement. The engagement will thus be on our terms not theirs. In conclusion - a good chance to hurt them without losing too much on our own. But - and this is quite important - how many days have past since the last engagement? How many of our damaged ships have been repaired? Enemy spies on land should know how many ships we have in repair docks by now and possibly also how long it'll take to repair them. If we take too much damage today we might end up with too much of our fleet damaged to be able to counter a larger British attack. But we have to take some risks or we'll achieve nothing before the war ends, so an engagement on our terms although it could lead to problems, is something I have to favor.

The disadvantage in wind has to be compensated though, which is why we need to choose 1C to have some counter-measures against the enemy airship. I think we should however bring some more zeppeliners closer to have some more in case the enemy brings more airships to the place, but we shouldn't bring so many that the recon is compromised.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-25-2006, 23:21

1)c

2)c

Lord Winter

01-26-2006, 00:59

I agree legio 2c it is if i can change it

discovery1

01-26-2006, 01:42

1)c
2)c

We Need Better Intel!

AntiochusIII

01-26-2006, 10:04

1) C: V86 will be needed to keep an eye on the movement of British forces. I suggest bringing one more Zeppelin into the area in case the British launching more airships to spy on us, though keep its profile low so the British won't realize the number of our Zeppelins. Z22 should also keep its distance at a respectable range. Be sure to have at least some of the rest of the Zeppelins ready for use in short notice.

2) The British, I assume, is enraged at our past victory and will be concentrating their forces on revenge and careful-but-aggressive attacks (or some grand plans?). I don't fully understand the choices but it seems to me that C is the compromise between the careless A and the overly cautious B, which might affect the eager sailors' morale -- after all, they come all this far, have been sharpening their teeth for the last few days, only to run from an unknown enemy? I presume C is the choice for us to prepare for battle, but also for maneuvers away from the British force if they prove to be overwhelmingly large, right?

Have the (a little impoverished) secondary forces ready for rescue operation, too, in case the up-and-coming possible engagement with this unknown force turns out to be a disaster. They can be sacrificed if it would save our major force.

Franconicus

01-26-2006, 10:24

Let us summarize:

A part of the RN is sunk or damaged.
Another part is out again. This gives us the chance to do more harm to them; by the way we will only play with our second class chips.
So after the battle the RN propably has a shortage of active ships.
We should use this in case our first class force is ready for another strike. We could start our operation with the Brummer. He could try to break through to the Atlantic. The Brits will surely try to catch it. So they have to send a couple of ships. This will reduce their reaction forces once more. Then we could strike. Attack the channel!!:2thumbsup:

King Kurt

01-26-2006, 10:43

Ludens

01-26-2006, 12:04

I don't like the idea of trying to hide behind the minefield - it puts us at a severe tactical disadvantage - our manouvering abiliity is severely hindered as we will be almost static, our smoke will hinder our firing, the English will have the tactical upperhand giving them the choice of weither to attack or not and the possibility of concentrating on part of our line, if we are realatively static that will help the English shooting - faster ships are harder to hit - and finally the light forces will not be able to operate effectively as a screen. The gap is only 2 km - in naval terms that is like trying to fit a battalion in a phone box - we need room to move - the mines give us a safe haven, so with the Zep in close attendance we will be able to keep track of what is happening and repeat the sucess of our first engagement - a swift bloody nose then withdraw.~:cheers:
I am bit confused about what we are actually going to do. I thought option C means to head towards the gap, but do not enter it unless the British turn out to be too powerful for us. That means the British will have an easier time spotting us, but will have to look into the sun to hit us. We cannot afford to be caught in the open by a stronger force, but we also need to take opportunities when they present themselves. In this case, I think the British are trying for battle, so we should place ourselves in a position where we can easily extract from battle if things go wrong.

Anyway, I do think we should get the two light cruisers and the destroyers here. At worst, they will provide something foir the British to shoot at while our Battleships make a run for it, at best they will make the British think more reinforcements are coming up.

Kraxis

01-26-2006, 15:01

Kommodus

01-26-2006, 15:30

See, the reason I object to 2) C is because the British might not attack us. We don't even know for sure if they outnumber us. However, if both sides reach the gap but stand off, then our options suddenly become very limited. Even if they end up having a smaller force, we won't be able to attack effectively through the gap - it would be like a TW bridge battle. That leaves half of our heavy forces essentially trapped, bottled up inside the minefields. This is great for the British, as they would have managed to split our fleet in two. They can just leave their ships in position until they bring up more of their much larger fleet.

I wouldn't assume the British are spoiling for a fight yet. They may be angered by the bloody nose we just gave them, but they also may be sobered and more cautious, wary of engagements in which they are unsure of victory, just as we are.

Kraxis

01-26-2006, 15:57

I will have to deal with the situations as they come... Since this very complex I am a bit under pressure. But not to worry, the broard plans are fanning out for both sides.

Though I'm beginning to understand the mentality of both sides now. I will have to cater to that

Besides, I passed my last exam for this semester today. YAY!:2thumbsup: But tomorrow morning I'm going on a cultural trip to Canazei in the Dolomites. I'm going to study the bavious of the elusive Homo Sapiens as it for no apparent reason goes up and down mountainsides. Of course I'm going to experiment a little with that myself.

King Kurt

01-26-2006, 16:01

I can't see the English coming through the gap - to what purpose? They are not going to attack our base and would not want to engage our forces with the minefield at their back - especially as it is dark in a few hours. So let's get out there and shake it up a bit.

Kraxis

01-26-2006, 16:07

It is still morning, 8:15. So you have at least until 16:00 to do battle. That is well enough.

A British incentive to come and do battle would be, revenge, possibly catching some of your forces out or even just because it can be done. And if they are lucky they can catch you with your back to the minefield constricting your ability to maneuver.

There are a lot of options and incentives for the British.
Btw, remember when I say this, I'm not giving you clues about their options or choices or even what I mgiht have them do should they do this or that.

Franconicus

01-26-2006, 16:11

Enough talking! Let's fight!!:boxing:
We should end this battle before weekend!

Have a nice trip, Kraxis! How will you keep this story running?

Kraxis

01-26-2006, 16:19

I will perhaps manage to give you another chapter tonight, then you will have to wait until I'm home again, next sunday.

King Kurt

01-26-2006, 16:31

Kraxis - sorry I got the time of day wrong - I remembered all the stuff about low sun etc and assumed it was the end of the day!
Like Franconicus I want to fight, I need to feel the deck move under my feet and the salt spray on my face - so let us get some sea room and show these English what the IGN can do.

Ludens

01-26-2006, 18:33

C means you will cover the 'only' vector the British might have through the minefield. The Gap is quite narrow in terms of battlelines, so if the British find themselves inside it and you plugging their exit with a crossed 'T'... Well I leave you to your imagination.
Okay, now I am really confused: do you mean the British are inside the minefields? :dizzy2: I assumed we were south of the British because you said the low sun would help us, but by the way several members talk it's the British that will be cutting our retreat (and vice versa). This could get nasty if they have more reinforcements out there.

Oh, well, I still don't fancy option B because they may be more powerful, and staying where we are is a liability for the same reason. Let's fight!

Kommodus

01-26-2006, 21:30

Okay, now I am really confused: do you mean the British are inside the minefields? :dizzy2: I assumed we were south of the British because you said the low sun would help us, but by the way several members talk it's the British that will be cutting our retreat (and vice versa). This could get nasty if they have more reinforcements out there.

Oh, well, I still don't fancy option B because they may be more powerful, and staying where we are is a liability for the same reason. Let's fight!

Ludens, I think the situation is this: our ships are inside the minefields. The gap in the minefields is to the north, and the British ships are further north, presumably heading south towards the gap. Thus, your original assumption was correct.

The reason I mentioned the possibility of the British cutting off our retreat is that if they get to the gap and stop, and we are still inside the minefields, then how would we get out? Those who have advocated option C (sail to the gap but stop just inside of it) generally assume the British will attack as soon as they arrive. If they do, they'll be bunched up in the narrow gap with the front of their ships facing our broadsides (that's the crossed T). We'd have a huge advantage in such a fight.

However, this goes both ways. If the British don't attack, then we essentially have a stalemate, because we won't be able to effectively attack them through the gap for the same reason they won't be able to attack us. This is really bad for us, because then our fleet is cut in two with half of it not being very useful.

That's why I advocate option B (get out of the minefields quickly). We would probably run into the British but the fight is just as likely to go our way as theirs. If things go awry, we'd at least be out of the minefields with a chance to extract ourselves and get back to safety.

Rodion Romanovich

01-26-2006, 21:43

Oh, now I understand what was meant, I too misunderstood at first. So I think I'll change to option B. Dunno if it matters by now, but anyway...

Flavius Clemens

01-26-2006, 21:47

As I see it, either the British force is a deterrent / bluff there with the intention of keeping us at home while they lick their wounds and re-group, or it's another lure for a battle they expect to win. If the former then charging out to do as much damage as possible is the best idea. If the latter they have something that will swing things their way. Given our recon assessment that the known force has a maximum of 10 battleships I doubt the RN would consider that sufficiently superior to our possible numbers to go for another battle so soon - even if they are their best ships. So if they are trying to lure us out, either
i) there are re-inforcements within steaming range (I make it that in our first battle we didn't engage much more than about half their ships, so this seems feasible). If so, dashing through the gap will probably leave us outnumbered and maybe cut off from our retreat back through the minefield.
or
ii) maybe they've managed to get submarines deployed at the edge of the gap in the minefield so as we emerge we find ourselves side on to a shoal of torpedoes. This would be apt revenge for our U boat's sucess - and I suspect very tempting for the Brits.

Much as I'd like to call their bluff and risk 2B, my head says go for 2C, and keep V86 with us, while Z22 keeps a distant eye on the British without risking being shot down.

Flavius Clemens

01-26-2006, 21:56

That's why I advocate option B (get out of the minefields quickly). We would probably run into the British but the fight is just as likely to go our way as theirs. If things go awry, we'd at least be out of the minefields with a chance to extract ourselves and get back to safety.

I may be misunderstanding this - I've been searching without success for a map of the minefields - but I thought the minefields surround our home bases, so all our ships are inside the minefield - some back at base, some close to the edge - and getting through the gap takes us away from safety rather than towards it. If I'm wrong, then I would go for option 2B (but with all precautions that we can take against possible submarines) if not I still go for 2C.

If anyone does know of a map outlining the general position of the minefields relative to Wilheimshaven, Cuxhaven etc I'm sure we'd all find it useful,

Rodion Romanovich

01-26-2006, 21:56

Gah! Now I'm really confused! My choice is to go for a safe engagement with a possibility for a safe retreat if necessary without risk of being cut off from land (that was obviously the intention of the enemy in the last engagement). But after reading the stuff above I'm not sure whether that would be B or C...

Kommodus

01-26-2006, 22:14

I may be misunderstanding this - I've been searching without success for a map of the minefields - but I thought the minefields surround our home bases, so all our ships are inside the minefield

Hrm, you know, I assumed just the opposite - that our ports were in fact outside the minefields. If I'm wrong in this, I would also change my vote to 2C, since this would eliminate my fear of getting our fleet divided. Kraxis, how about an answer here?

Looking back over the current situation, I also realize that the gap is in fact to our east, not to our north. This doesn't make much difference, except that it explains why option B gives us a chance to cross the T of British forces coming from the north, assuming we reached the gap and burst out of it just as the British were arriving. It also better explains why, under option C, the British would have a hard time targeting, as they would be looking into the setting sun in the west.

The more I think about it, the more I think you may be right - that our ports are inside the minefields - in which case 2C is the right option. Hopefully we can settle this soon.

Kraxis

01-27-2006, 01:27

Lord Winter

01-27-2006, 01:55

We should force them to fight were we chose. B is not an option simply because they could cut off our retreat or slaughter us if they catch us inside the gap when wer actuly are retreating. Not to mention if we miss them and they bypass our defences and take the port. Game over ethier way. If we find them crossing the gap we can slaughter them. If not we can just sit out of range and maybe request some U boats to torpedo them to force there hand. We do not have to act here we just have to stop them from gaining the port with the least damage to our fleet as possiable.

Kommodus

01-27-2006, 16:45

2C it is then! I misunderstood the location of our bases in relation to the minefields. The British will probably not attack, but just in case they do, we'll be ready for them.

Ludens

01-27-2006, 18:54

Easy boys!

The bases are all inside the minefields, meaning there is a ring of mines surrounding you, but with enough space on the inside to perform maneuvers and gunnerypractice.

Here is a map of a comparable situation. Do not take it to be relative to size, numbers or even distance (you are in fact not sitting at the edge of the Gap). It is just to give a feeling of where you are and what the various options mean.
https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6605/unavngivet9mq.th.jpg (https://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unavngivet9mq.jpg)
Thanks. Breaking out is the most adventurous option, but I am quite sure the British are out there in force. Either this is another attempt to lure us, or, as I now consider possible, an attempt to bottle us up near our own harbour. However, it should be quite easy to open another gap and break out there. After all, if it was that simple to pin the German fleet, why haven't the British done it before? Stay on our side (preferbly out of sight of the British), and close in should they be brave enough to reach our side.

Rodion Romanovich

01-27-2006, 20:12

Ok now I understand the situation. I agree with Ludens, to stay some distance inside, ready to rush for the gap if the British close in, but not rush there until there are signs of the British going through the gap, as it may make them retreat and we would then miss a good opportunity. Keep zeppeliners to scout and some attached to the force for spotting and hunting enemy airships. As soon as we get signs that they're going through the gap we move forward and engage them. But we must also keep our umbrella of zeppeliners out to make sure they aren't flanking us with another force. They could be, as Ludens suggested, clearing another gap elsewhere and be sending more troops through elsewhere to go around our force and cut us off from the shore. That's a manouver they might think we won't expect. And if it gets too hot we should retreat to the harbors, we've got too many ships damaged to want to get many damaged or sunk ships in this engagement - if most of our ships are going through repairs we haven't got much if they decide to attack with a larger force.

Ludens

01-27-2006, 20:31

Blast, I forgot about the smoke. The British will realize we are there once they see the plumes. Anybody has an idea for a feint?

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, I think most of our Zeps are at the ground. However, I agree we should keep a steady watch. That said, I doubt the British are de-mining, it so close to our harbours the zeps would have noticed, and the minesweepers would make fine target practice for our battleships. I suggested that we do it in case the British would bottle us inside our harbour.

King Kurt

01-30-2006, 12:38

Kraxis is presumably now on the piste - how can he leave our fleet teetering on the edge of the minefields, poised for action - how can we stand the pressure?? - I am off for a long lay down:help:

Kraxis

02-06-2006, 13:34

Kraxis is presumably now on the piste - how can he leave our fleet teetering on the edge of the minefields, poised for action - how can we stand the pressure?? - I am off for a long lay down:help:
Correction... I left at the appointed time, got down there at the right time early saturday morning. Oh joy oh joy! Jumped out with my snowboard and had the best day ever on the mountain. Canazei is possibly the best place I have ever been to, it had just snowed perfectly and it had a perfect -2 centigrades. My new clothes and the buffed boards was working perfectly...

Sounds good eh? Well, it was good. Too good in fact! And the goddess of Luck thought I had had enough and tripped me at about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Despite my strong kneepads (both in pants and strap-ons) I suffered a very unlucky hit to my left knee that turned out to be a stretched ligament. No more boarding for me that week. Even now I still suffer from it.
Unlike last year where people were somewhat lazy this year they all stayed out from 9 to 5 each day... The perfect trip and I was there, yet still wasn't there. Talk about horrible holiday for me!
Then add insult to injury, I got ill the last few days and now I also suffer from something that can't decide wether it is a cold or a throat infection!

I will get at posting the chapter today, very soon.

Btw, I actually posted the chapter before I left, but problems on the other board deleted that part so I saved the one here. Meaning your choices are set at plugging the Gap. Sorry if that conflicts with your stances now.

Kraxis

02-06-2006, 16:09

Smoke on the Water

The British force is possibly gunning for the Gap. I can't let that happen.
Realizing that you might be in for an engagement you recall V86, so that she can provide you with good spotting, and orders Z22 to keep watch at a distance, but she is already on her way home. Sadly since the zeppeliners are on low guard, it will take some hours before a new watch can be made, and by that time the British will likely already sail on the inside of the minefield. And since they are gunning for the Gap, they must be pretty certain they can beat any likely force you would have out, you do not believe that Z22 is correct in it's accessment of the enemy force. Luckily you have a stronger than normally force out, but it is still not strong enough. You argue that you have only got a single chance, to block the Gap so the British, in case they enter will be trapped between mines and guns, with no chance but to retreat, by a 16 point linetack. At this thought you smile, you can't help but love the Gefechtkertswendung, it would save your own force a lot of trouble, especially if you used a the double variant. But luckily it is not for you this time.

You order the squadron to head for the Gap at once and set up a line across it's mouth. Meanwhile you order the small cover squadron, that is already leaving Cuxhaven, to scout the area to your west before joining up.
You recieve the answer from V86 that she has broken off the chase, but her captain is less than happy. Here his crew had a golden chance to in fact be the hunter rather than the hunted as always, and he was sure he would have caught the smaller British airship soon enough.

At 9:43 you finally let the ships slow down, so as not to cross the mouth too soon. You cross back and forth a number of times until at 10:21 you get a report from V86 that the enemy is at the other end. A mere nine nautical miles away. You are tempted to open up at once, but he has not fired either. Could it be he can't see you? You think it might be the case, and hold your fire.
The British mill about a bit, then send two ships at you. Their airship close by but also edging closer. At 10:44 Thüringen, quickly followed by Posen and Fredrich der Grosse, open up on them. With the help of V86 they quickly straddle the British ships. Clearly outnumbered and outgunned the two scouts turn back but a few hits are scored, though seemingly unimportant, just as their three destroyers lay down a limited smokescreen.

As they return to their line, the little airship turns towards you once more and creeps closer. You order V86 to intercept from below, then you wait and wait and wait for the British to discover you. And suddenly they open up, like a fire that moves along the horizon like a wave. You order your ships to return fire, the game is on.
Line of battleships against line of battleships, the spectacle is aweinspiring and deafening to the senses. The British fire, at first scattered and uncoordinated soon becomes much more accurate, at least the fire against your own Kaiser, Helgoland and Fredrich der Grosse, their airship must be directing them. But that should soon end... Suddenly you are jolted from your feet, a strike nearby, but with no explosion. The armour held. You get to your feet.

Out in front of you V86 suddenly stabs upwards from her low altitude. A few secodns later a number of heavy shells fall in her area. The British airship is taken by surprise, even thinking she was a ship. Then it realizes the mistake, turns and speeds up, but your faster, bigger zeppeliner is hot on its tail, the first trails of machinegunfire spreading out.
You keep your eyes set on the two airships, but you notice the British accuracy has dropped seriously, while V86 keeps you informed of your own splashes around what appears to be two modern battleships.

Suddenly the smaller airship opens up to release a massive yellow flame, before sinking to the sea, stern first. V86, her job done and now in danger herself furiously turn around to head for safety, but soon small puffs of smoke pop up around her. AA fire from the ships. While few in number and fairly inaccurate, they do have a very large target to shoot at, and true enough, soon V86 begins a nosedive. Her last report states "hit in frontal gasbag, leaking rapidly, can't maintain height." Then just above the surface she explodes.

The British try to do a proper exchange with you for a few minutes but hits on their ships quickly has them pulling back. At 11:31 the last splash is observed to their rear.
You smile. While not exactly a massive battle with lots og fire and hits you have chased the British off, not even knowing their size properly. In all your ships fired off 346 shells, and got in 19 hits. Not good, but considering the bad visibility perfectly acceptable. In return the British hit your ships a mere 6 times. Not bad at all, especially considering 4 of those bounced off the armour and the two penetrating hits were minor.

After the British pull back you stay around untill darkness falls. The new zep keeps a fair distance of the British to report that they halt some distance to the north-west. Easily able to intercept you if you break out. Thus you keep at home.
As the cover force arrives they signal a message:
"His Royal Highness Kaiser Wilhelm II will arrive in three days to inspect the fleet. He has been most impressed with the recent achievements. Both battles interest him greatly. He expects to go over them with you."
You squint your eyes... That means a period of downtime. Perhaps good, perhaps bad. You don't know.
But what you do know is that all heavy ships have now tasted battle, that they have proven to you that they are ready to fight and that their can fight good. Also their morale is great, two won battles and negliable losses. Though you have to admit that the loss of the experienced V86 is not good. You return to port.

It is dark as you arrive and you have spent the time in to ponder as to what to do while Kaiser Wilhelm is around, hopefully only a few hours, but he has a special and odd love for the sea.

1) The Bight
A: Patrol the Bight aggressively with three elderly battleships and two battlecruisers. Might be disliked by the Admiralty, but perhaps liked by the Kaiser (perhaps he would like that you take such precautions to protect him?).
B: The same but only the battleships. Same consequences as before but lesser chance and effects.
C: Step up the light forces on patrol. Send out five light cruisers and ten torpedoboats to cover the minesweepers.
D: Keep it normal. Two light cruisers and five torpedoboats protecting the minesweepers and attack boats (similar to the E-boats of WWII) covering the near area.

2) Special Operations, might very well require influence and can thus fail to happen.
A: Sneak out a force of four light cruisers to intercept the British minelayers during the night.
B: Attack the British convoys from Gothenburg and southern Norway with every available battlecruiser at your disposal. Sneak out through the Kiel Canal and strike up through the Danish waters. Will certainly cost influence.
C: Simlar but with a force of six light cruisers. Problematic if you have already chosen the other options for light cruisers, in that case it will also cost a lot of influence (no more light cruisers at home).

3) Zeppeliners
A: Continue to cover the Bight as before.
B: The same but step it up and call them out of rest.
C: Fan out the cover to see what is going on at sea.
D: Recall them, that might rest them enough, while keeping the British guessing.

Kommodus

02-06-2006, 16:55

1) B

I don't think this risks much, and it should please the Kaiser. However, I'd prefer to save the battlecruisers for...

2) B

It's risky, but what can I say? We're the underdogs in this fight and have to try something bold once in a while.

Voice of Denethor: "Much must be risked in war..."

3) C

If we're going out to attack the convoys, we'll need to cover more than just the Bight, and I think it's time to send our airships back out there. We wouldn't want our battlecruiser force to be surprised by a larger British squadron.

Rodion Romanovich

02-06-2006, 21:10

1B

2A - shouldn't be too risky with our good zeppelin coverage and would tease the enemy a lot if we could act freely where the last battle was. Hopefully it's also the last place they'll expect us to be in.

3C - good recon is everything, especially when we're carrying out various activities

Uesugi Kenshin

02-06-2006, 22:02

I'm sorry to hear you missed your vacation Kraxis. Thanks for giving us our fix!

1) Definately B, we can afford to put a few elderly battleships out to "protect" the Kaiser.

2)B, we can't keep hitting the same place. The British can probably afford to defend the gap, and will probably expect something tricky. Besides I've always had a thing for convoy raiding.

3)C, we need to see the big picture before we send our fleet out in strength again.

AntiochusIII

02-07-2006, 04:09

1B: The Kaiser's favor is most useful, and we wouldn't alienate the Admirality too much. A is a little more forceful than I want, and the other choices might have the Kaiser raising eyebrows, wondering if you know who He is.

2...not sure. I'll wait for opinions and arguments before choosing. Personally I fear the British trap--they must've considered us a bunch of overaggressive, but lucky, players by now, considering our risk-taking, so they must've been preparing something for us--but the urge...of destruction...

3C: Definitely search out. Might get some golden opportunities of isolated bunch of British ships to hunt. Though be careful and retreat from British sight at first comparable danger. We want them to think we are lacking in Zeppelins.

Kommodus

02-07-2006, 04:44

2...not sure. I'll wait for opinions and arguments before choosing. Personally I fear the British trap--they must've considered us a bunch of overaggressive, but lucky, players by now, considering our risk-taking, so they must've been preparing something for us--but the urge...of destruction...

Ah yes, we have been a reckless bunch, haven't we? Fleeing repeatedly in the face of golden opportunities, hiding behind minefields, and keeping our zeps to ourselves like polite little Krauts... I imagine them shrinking back in terror from our audacious show of aggression!

The way I see it, we'll always have cause to fear a British trap, but we have to try some daring moves if we want to accomplish anything. I believe our battlecruisers can be deal a solid blow here, and can escape if challenged by heavier British forces.

'Course, I've been wrong before... :book:

AntiochusIII

02-07-2006, 05:19

Ah yes, we have been a reckless bunch, haven't we? Fleeing repeatedly in the face of golden opportunities, hiding behind minefields, and keeping our zeps to ourselves like polite little Krauts... I imagine them shrinking back in terror from our audacious show of aggression!

The way I see it, we'll always have cause to fear a British trap, but we have to try some daring moves if we want to accomplish anything. I believe our battlecruisers can be deal a solid blow here, and can escape if challenged by heavier British forces.

'Course, I've been wrong before... :book:I forgot to put this in, but I evaluated it from the British point of view: the Germans raided the convoy (though that was Kraxis' "opening event"), then they raided another convoy, then they dared to stand up against "our" force, and completely beat the pulp out of us, etc...

So I'm concerned they might "realize" we "have a thing for convoys." As they don't really know of our choices and what we "could've done" had we been more aggressive, and that they don't (I *think*) really know about the size of our Zeppelin squadron.

But of course, I'm open to the idea of an attack. I'm as bloodthirsty a sea dog as they come...in the internet. :P

Kagemusha

02-07-2006, 06:17

1B lets keep everybody happy.

2B I think British wont expect this kind of bold move from us.Its time to push them off balance by irritating them.

3C Order the Zeppeliners out to spot targets for our raiders.

Franconicus

02-07-2006, 09:47

Smoke on the Water - and fire in the sky :laugh4:

This is my analysis (though I might be wrong): The Brits tried something and reveived a minor defeat. Now it is night. I do not believe that their operation is done. They are still out there and they have something in their backhand.
On the other side we are getting stronger and stronger. Our damaged ships will be fit soon, our crews have experience and moral is good.
We should gather all of our forces and get them ready for the big strike. After all these minor battles the RN will not expect that. So no more gambling now.

1) The Bight
I say 1D). Let's pretend we are careless and satisfied, maybe even tired of fighting!

2) Special Operations, might very well require influence and can thus fail to happen.
I say nothing at all. No more special operations. It is time to take the gloves off!
But if I am forced to choose I will take C:

3) Zeppeliners
A: Continue to cover the Bight as before.
That is enough for the moment. Watch and start our operation as soon as the Brits retreat. We need the Zeps later.

I think the Kaiser will order a big operation. So we should be prepared. All big ships and Zeps have to be allert. Let King Kurt make an operational plan.

Kraxis, I am sure you informed the subs that the Brits are out there, did you?

Kraxis

02-07-2006, 12:54

Guys, I was in a hurry to post, so I forgot to add to option 2 an option to not do anything (that is alsmost always possible in case I forget in the future, I don't like to force your hand when I don't have to). I take it Franc want that option. Anybody else please make a comment on it if you wish to change your choices.

Franc, given the lack of wireless you only informed home about it when you returned. While U-Boats generally travel the area they are not too keen on attacking heavily escorted task forces. Remember that they are in fact very slow and their torpedoes are not very good. It is very dangerous to proceed with an attack. The first was a half success because the British was scattered and their wounded battlewagons were limping home with too few escorts. U-Boats can only ever come in as a chance encounter under the best circumstances.

Franconicus

02-07-2006, 13:32

King Kurt

02-07-2006, 14:16

I think we still have to build to a large offensive as we have to wear the enemy down more. I think our initial strategy should be to make the Bight ours - it will be difficult to do any operation with the English on our doorstep, so I would propose
1 - C - let's be more aggressive in our close operations - also it will keep our light forces in good shape, especially after we stripped them of some good men to make up losses on the battlewaggons.
2- A - Let us make the minelayers life a misery and a costly exercise - it would possibly pull in some larger units for us to attack.
3 - A - Let us keep a focus on the Bight. Knowledge is power

Once the Battle of the Bight has been won, we can look farther afield. We can alude to a longer strategy for the Kaiser's visit and that might bring more support from high places. I also think that the convoy attack is a bad idea - sinking merchant ships will not win us the war - and we have been to that trough a couple of times - enough to keep some English resources pinned down protecting them. Also if we attack with a couple of battlecruisers we risk some our precious main assets - at best we sink a few merchants, at worst we have to fight a large covering force, resulting in loss or damage to our units.~:cheers:

Ludens

02-07-2006, 14:31

I agree with Franconicus: the British attack doesn't make sense. Why did they try to get a relatively small group into our waters? Possibly, it was a feint to distract us or to lull us into contemplacy. Perhaps we can return the favour, though:

1B
2 do nothing, or perhaps A if we are reasonably sure there are no British nearby
3B If it is a trap, I'd like to see what is happening

In retrospect: we should have ordered V86 to destroy the British blimp immediatly. Doing this when enemy ships are present is too risky. As for defending the gap, we cannot say anything about until we can guess the British strenght and intent. V86 reported that two of the British ships looked like modern battleships, so their strength was possibly substantial.

Kraxis

02-07-2006, 16:48

King Kurt, the crewmen were taken from the secondary forces not the light forces. That means the sailors of the pre-dreadnoughts, armoured cruisers and outdated light cruisers. This has of course impacted the time needed for them to be readied for battle once more.

Ludens, take note that the British hardly attacked you. In fact they seemed to do exactly what you did...

Franconicus

02-07-2006, 16:53

Maybe the Tommies want to lock us away. Do they plan anything and try to keep us busy?

Kraxis

02-07-2006, 17:03

Ah ah ah! I'm not going to tell you anything more than I have written (or that you obviously can be allowed to know).

But I think you have to wait for the next installment.
Their forum has for the third time in a short period crashed and been forced to relocate. While the info has been saved people will still have to create new accounts once more, and given their relatively small number and the fact that they do not spend as much time online as you guys it might be a while before a sufficeint number has answered the choices.

Flavius Clemens

02-07-2006, 21:24

Kraxis,
Welcome back, and commiserations on the injury. (Was that by chance the blow that knocked us to our feet without piercing the armour ~:) ?)

When the cover force passed on the message about the Kaiser's visit, how did it get to our home base in the first place? If by radio then we have to assume the British intercepted it and are therefore expecting the fleet to be in port for the inspection. As this might give us an extra edge of surprise in 2B, that would influence my decision.

For 1 is (A or B) and C together be an option? Not knowing what the British are planning around the gap I'd like to have flexible options.

And another thought for the future. As a back up to our zeppelins, can we use tethered observation balloons from our ships - maybe taking one or two of the older vessels along specifically for this purpose? Zeps are obviously preferable, but if we loose one in combat having a back up is better than nothing.

Lord Winter

02-08-2006, 01:52

Hmm. Tough choice
While a major scale operation may upset the Kaiser(if we're running around and leaving a port were he will be visiting under defended or if our troops are to tire to look there best in front of the Kaiser) the admiralty will want us to follow up the victory. But we also have our reputation as a admiral to keep up. So i say a quick raid at the minesweepers will look impressive.
So
1)A
2)A
3)C

Franconicus

02-08-2006, 08:32

I am always loosing my feeling for time. What day is today and when will our armada be complete and allert again?

King Kurt

02-08-2006, 11:15

Kraxis - first of all, belated commiserations on the lack of snowboarding and a cold during your holiday - from my memories of winter holidays you have nearly as much fun off the piste as you do on - normaly involving several glasses of mulled wine!! - but I assume the cold even curtailed that.

Can I add weight to franc's question - what is the date and when will we be back to full strength? Personally, I think we should build slowly - this is a marathon not a sprint - if we jump in too early, we risk being overwhelmed. It is not in my nature to be too cautious in these matters, but after our debacle in the battle of Kiev - see Officer's Honour - I am exercising a little more caution!!!~:cheers:

Ludens

02-08-2006, 13:18

Maybe the Tommies want to lock us away. Do they plan anything and try to keep us busy?
Spies reported many British ships going into the drydocks, which suggest that they won't carry out any major operations soon (but given their numerical advantage this may not be true) so I think you may be right. Else it could be that their fleet attempted to surprise ours during training (but I thought Kraxis wrote something that suggested they were not moving fast).

Whatever it is, I'd like to know why there are no options dealing with this enemy fleet. At the very least it is possible they might try to cross the minefield again, or that they hoover nearby to prevent us crossing.

Kraxis

02-08-2006, 15:18

Thanks guys... But it was not too fun when you can't walk about to the bars, and the town was virtually closed between 12 and 4 in the afternoon.

It is now the 7th of March... The last engagement was on the 6th (if you look back on when it began it said so). So the Kaiser will arrive on the 9th.

Derfflinger, Moltke and König Albert are nearing completion, while Bayern, Baden and Seydlitz are more or less finished and ready for operations.
That leaves Von der Tann, Hindenburg and Kaiserin still out of the game, though Hindenburg can sail and fight. But she still needs repairs to various lesser areas.

The real reason for your new 'offensive' is the upcoming Kaiserschlacht, the great German springoffensive of 1918. Of course you don't know that specifically, only that something big will happen soon and you are supposed to do all to help it.
Ultimately it is hoped that you might sever the connection between Britain and France, keeping the US troops out.

Franconicus

02-08-2006, 16:44

Thank you! Now it is clear! The Kaiser will order a decisive operation against the Channel. Our fleet is almost ready. So let's keep them together, start reconnaisance abnd start making plans.

Tell Brummer to get ready, too!

King Kurt

02-09-2006, 10:19

More than ever it is important to clear the Bight - so let's get after those minelayers and not bother with these convoy distractions.~:cheers:

Ludens

02-09-2006, 14:03

I guess I'll change my vote:

1C - Simply put: if the British try something, the old battleships are not going to stop them.
2A - because I prefer it to B and C
3B - I am still not convinced the British are gone, but I don't want to exhaust the zeps prematurely either

Kraxis

02-09-2006, 19:37

Since the problems continue in the other place I guess I have to let you do something in the meanwhile.

4) Dealing with Kaiser Wilhelm
You really want to do your best as he is very firm on people doing their best, but you don't know what to do, or even if you want to impress him with things he like. He might stay longer than you want him to... This is not going to be easy at a time like this.
1: Wilhelm really like discipline and what you can achieve with it. When he arrives you will take him to the bridge, then use several hours for various in-port onboard maneuvers. From the simple going to port maneuver, over battlestations to the outrageous Repel Boarders maneuver. The crew of Baden will rush from position to position and Wilhelm will be able to see it all from various positions within the ship and how well the crew reacts. Afterwards in the afternoon you will take him to your cabin where you will go over the two recent battles in detail.
2: Kaiser Wilhelm oddly enough loves the sea and sailing. You know that he has never sailed with a battleship, so you want to take him for a little ride onboard Baden. You will only sail a short distance out, escorted by strong detachments of torpedoboats, attack boats and light cruisers, then you will do maneuvers such as gunnery, torpedo evasion (prompted by the torpedoboats, which will then be chased off by the light cruisers and your secondary guns), high speed turns and multiple target gunnery. Then you will sail home. While sailing to and from the area you will go over the recent battles.
3: The Kaiser is a sucker for technology, it fascinates him. Big guns and big engines.
You will give him the grand tour of Baden, focusing especially on the upper structures, such as the gunturrets, rangefinders, firedirectors and the bridge and secondary gunpositions. But the engines will also get a great deal of attention. This should easily take quite a few hours. Perhaps he will get a bit bored and will leave after you have discussed the battles at your portside office.

AggonyDuck

02-09-2006, 21:47

Definately number 2!:2thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich

02-09-2006, 22:04

I think we should show his as little as possible that he could be impressed by. I don't think we'd want to make him overestimate our strength. On the contrary I think we should have a nice show for him to show we honor him, but not make him too impressed. We should explain that our situation is strategically difficult, but also explain how discipline and leadership has given a brilliant victory in one medium battle and a tie in one minor skirmish. Might keep him from forcing too much from us in the upcoming spring offensive. I vote for option no. 1.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-09-2006, 22:57

2, having the Kaiser in our pocket will definately give us some pull at the admiralty. Besdes he's never sailed with a battleship before, we might as well make his last year or so of command more memorable.

Kraxis

02-10-2006, 00:00

Btw, just telling you guys, the Kaiser choice will give you a special chapter just for fun, though it might of course have some impact on the future.
At the moment that chapter won't end with choices, but who knows what my inspiration might give me.

AntiochusIII

02-10-2006, 00:19

1. Let he see some maneuvers. It could be a nice little training, and the crews get a chance to showoff to their glorious Imperial Majesty. And it would put the Kaiser in the mood for military discussion.

Choice two might make him happy, or not, but it probably would brought his mind away from a possibly worthwhile discussion on objectives of this campaign.

He'll probably get bored with the technological tour, which is never good, and I don't think going out for sailing is a good impression on Kaiser Wilhelm IF he happens to come here "with an objective."

Flavius Clemens

02-10-2006, 00:52

Catching up on both the last two questions:

1) A I'd like some deterent out there in case the Brits are planning something sneaky.

2) A Main advantage of convoy raiding is if we get the chance to take out an isolated capital ship escourt, or force the British to use more capital ships on convoy duty and then we attack elsewhere. Cruisers wouldn't achieve that, and I don't think the risk to the battlecruisers and loss of influence is worth it. On the other hand the more we minimise the risk of mines when we do need to head out of the gap again, the better.

3) B Need to get all the info we can on what's going on round the Blight and the RN force out there.

4) 2 Looks good to the Kaiser and gives us more practice. I'm sure option 1 would just annoy the crew.

Ludens

02-10-2006, 19:09

D2: the first option sounds nice for an hour, but after that I think the Kaiser would get bored and the crew annoyed. Let's show him our discipline where it matters.

Kraxis

02-11-2006, 13:34

Haven't the rest of the regular got an opinion on choice 4? Franc, kagemusha, King Kurt, Kommodus, Destroyer of Hope?

Lord Winter

02-11-2006, 20:22

I agree with Ludens,
2

Kommodus

02-11-2006, 22:28

I guess my gut is to go with 2 - it just seems the coolest. I'm not terribly worried about impressing him too much. I'd rather just make sure he's not bored. Perhaps it'll come back to bite us if he asks too much of us later on, but even if it does, I doubt it will cause significant harm.

So I'll go with my gut: #2.

Franconicus

02-12-2006, 12:59

Haven't the rest of the regular got an opinion on choice 4? Franc, kagemusha, King Kurt, Kommodus, Destroyer of Hope?
Sure! Take the last one! Show him big guns and engines and talk about the advantade of having `made in Germany`weapons. Krupp guns and MAN engines!!!

However, this will not change anything! The Kaiser will tell you what he wants to see!
And in 1918 the Kaiser has nothing to say anymore, atleast regarding the big war.
Best case: he needs some pictures for the papers and disappears soon.
worst case: He will prove that his Navy isn`t just a useless pet and start his own war. This would cause blood. Or he gives the order to send all sailors to the army.:skull:
By the way, who is coming with him? Hindenburg, Ludendorff?

Kraxis

02-12-2006, 13:33

Just a bunch of useless staffers from both Army and Navy. 'Yesmen' would be a good term.

King Kurt

02-12-2006, 22:04

Definately take him to sea. The Kaiser often sailed at Cowes just up the road from me, staying with Victoria at Osborne House, so let's get the wind in his hair.

Franconicus

02-13-2006, 08:12

Kurt, you are kiddin? Imagine the Kaiser gets sick and ... . We might get executed!

Kagemusha

02-13-2006, 10:03

2.To the Sea.If he gets sea sick maybe he decides its better to leave the sailing to the Sailors.But always when the big honchos come they want to see what we are doing out here.So little cruise is the best option.~:)

King Kurt

02-13-2006, 11:13

Sick - on a battleship!! - we are going round the bay, not the Horn. Unless he has some bad shellfish for lunch, I don't think we need worry about seasickness:2thumbsup:

Kraxis

02-20-2006, 05:46

The Kaiser comes! The Kaiser comes!!!

Eventhough it is late as you arrive, the last rays of light are playing across the bumbling clouds, you decide to set up everything needed for the near future right away.
You call all the important officers to your office, quatermasters, the band officer, master of the guard (commander of the troops protecting the port) and the ranking captains and admirals, including the captain of Baden.

First you order food for the cellected officers and aides, in all 18 people, and as you eat you discuss what to do next. You offer up your thoughts on the matter as those you considered on the way in, and it is soon clear that the naval officers, honourbound as they are see the protection of the Kaiser as important as you do. There is no choice but to send out Rheinland, Westfalen and Nassau to patrol the Bight. You are certain that it will not be liked by the economically minded Admiralty, but you won't let that stop you.
The talks are very devided on the matter of what kind of action should be taken against the British. You really want to be able to tell the Kaiser that you are actively seeking out fights, he is after all a hotheaded fellow. Finally you cut through the chatter: "Gentlemen, stop it. You are sounding like old women at a teaclub. We will send out Brummer, Bremse, Frankfurt and the new Emden, hopefully it won't suffer the fate of her older namesake. They should get an escort of six topedoboats, we need to keep the size of the force small. Then they will sneak out and intercept the British minelayers and escorts."
You see a range of nods from the naval officers, even the quatermasters seem satisfied with it.
Then you turn to the matter of the reception of Kaiser Wilhelm, and it is soon clear that the captain of Baden is eager to take a short trip with the Kaiser out onto the Bight. He argues that with three battleships protecting him it should be fairly safe. You can't help but agree, the Kaiser does love the sea a lot and this could very well earn you a lot of favour with him, though you fear he might take to play admiral himself if he gets too much of a liking for sailing on the big boats.

For hours you iron out the details, go over the plans for the honour guard, both of sailors and troops and such things. The night quickly passes and at 6 in the morning you finally end the meeting. Hopefully everything has been gone over and decided on. You sigh loudly, you already hate this kind of royal attention, then you scuttle over to the bunk in the back of your office and lay down to sleep.

Your dreams are heavy and slow, lots of images of guns firing and splashing water, you notice that your hands are of metal, shaping into great gunbarrels, but it does not disturb you. Suddenly you are alone on the water, you are confused, but when you look around you you see nothing but frothing seas, you look down your body and now you are a battleship, a great battleship, lots of guns everywhere. There is thunder and you look up, twirling black clouds greet you. A stab of pain and you can feel your body shake, another stab and another! Around you the water is acting crazy, shooting at the sky, shooting back at the lightining from above. As you look up you notice a tiny shape moving... It streaks across the sky, slowing down and getting larger, around it you see several other shapes, all moving in unison... Moving right at you! You gasp as you realize what they are, GUNSHELLS! The initial shell you noticed falls right towards your head, you scream!
... and wakes up from your loud yell. You breathe heavily and is drenched in sweat. For several minutes you just sit on the bunk trying to shake the image of the enemy gunsells heading for you, the feeling of utter dread still lingers in you.
You look at the watch, it is nearly 11 in the late morning. You shake your head, get up completely and get to work, grabbing the phone at your desk. You call Colonel von Brasch of the zeppeliner force and order him to fan out his zeppeliners to search the North Sea. He complains that the crews are tired and the engines need proper repairs, he also comments that the crews are disturbed by the losses of two of the more experienced zeppeliners. While the crew of the first was largely saved they were shaken by their collision and have nothing better to do than to sit around and tell stories.
You order him to simply comply and he shuts up, you don't have time to argue with a minor officer, but you take to heart the problems and tell yourself to remember to ship a few crates of schnaps to them, perhaps even some wine, they have deserved it.

The days until the arrival of the Kaiser sees a buzz of activity in the port of Wilhelmshaven, everything is cleaned up, troops ans crews are drilled and a whole range of lesser touch-ups are made on the run. You are surprised that you even find the time to not only send a report to th Admiralty of your plans but also to argue with them when they want to complain about the 'misuse' of three important battleships, and the 'reckless endangering' of four vital light cruisers. Especially the aquisitioning of a lot of searchlights and smaller guns to be mounted on the raiders have them balking, but in the end you manage to end the discussion with a comment that it is the time for smaller action until you can fight fully again.

Finally, at 9 in the morning of the 9th of March the Royal train enters the port station, and despite the distance to Baden is a mere couple hundred meters the Kaiser and his aides are taken aboard a line of splendid cars.
When the cars come to a halt on the pier right in front of Baden and on the other side of the pier Markgraf, you watch from the deck how the aides file out while the Kaiser seems highly interested in the great ships around him. Finally he leaves the car escorted by the aides, and walks up the gangway to the deck of Baden. There you greet him with a dense honourguard of sailors on both sides. The non-vital crewmembers are all lined up on the deck while the cooks are preparing a feast for lunch.
You throw the Kaiser a crisp salute and with a loud clack the entire crew comes to attention. The bearded man smiles at you then he returns the salute, though it is hardly of military standard.
"Welcome aboard Your latest and most modern battleship Your Majesty!"
"Thank you Admiral, it is always a pleasure to come and see these most impressive ships close up."
You smile at the comment, clear smalltalk. You refuse the attempt and merely says: "If Your Majesty would let me escort You to the bridge, we have some plans we believe Your Majesty would find quite interesting ready."
The older man lights up with the prospects of something impulsive. He takes a few steps toward, you step to his left to let him past, he halts for a moment, then the both of you, confused, move towards the opening in the honourguard. You feverishly try to get on his left side to guide him the easiest way to the bridge, meanwhile he clearly does not want that. You can't walk in front of him as he is royalty, and you can't have him turn back every now and then to get directions.
This jostling for positions keeps up as you lead the, now smaller group, towards the main entrance of the superstructure. Finally at the hatch you step to the right side to keep hatch open and Kaiser Wilhelm gladly enters. You frown at this, and as you move to get in behind him, the naval aide, a Kapitän zur See, grabs you by the arm and whispers. "Do not get on his left side Admiral!" Your frown just deepens and you shake your head.
At the bridge you finally notice the problem and you are tempted to slap yourself across the forehead. How could I have been that stupid?! The Kaiser's underdeveloped left arm! Always hidden away, always kept from the eyes of beholders from outside the most intimate clique. Kaiser Wilhelm suffers from a massive inferioritycomplex because of it, some have even commented that this entire war is because he needs to show the other royalty that he is their equal. This got off to a good start...
"So what are your plans Admiral?"
The question jolts you back to the moment. "Well, it has come to our attention that Your Majesty hasn't sailed on a battleship before, so we thought this might be a good time for doing that. That way we can show you a lot of what it takes to run such a ship as well give a small demonstration of tactics and gunnery. Would that be to Your Majesty's liking?"
The middleaged man suddenly turns into something more akin to a giddy schoolboy. "It certainly would! And please stop all this 'Your Majesty' nonsense. If you must, just say 'My Lord'. But what about the discussion of the two recent battles? I have not had it from a man who was present." He said throwing a glance at the naval aide.
You nod. "My Lord, it was the plan that I would go over it with You in my cabin while we sailed out onto the training grounds. I doubt that it should take too long as they were relatively simple affairs."
"Very well, let's get to it then."
"Yes My Lord!" You turn to the bridgecrew and begin to give off orders, needless orders, as they know exactly what they are supposed to do. The claxon sounds to call the crew to their portmaneuver stations. Within a few minutes the great ship is being edged out of its berthing by a number of smaller tugs. All the while the Kaiser almosts runs around the bridge to get views of everything that is going on. "I had no idea it took so much effort to just get out of the berthing." You manage to intercept questions for the younger officers so they do not get distracted, for while it is something the tugs have done many times there is no need to foul up now becase a young officer didn't pay attention at th right time.
Soon Baden, with her escort of light cruisers and torpedoboats, edge it's way out of the port and you retire with the Kaiser and his aides to your cramped cabin.
Inside the entire layout has been changed by the removal of the couch, small sofa and table, and the addition of a larger table and a number of chairs. On the table is a map with grids and small figures of ships. You had ordered a table setup with the layout of the situation just prior to the breakout at the Great Run.
While the ship plows out to sea you move the figures while you explain how the action went, at least how you knew it to go. Rather surprisingly the Kaiser is silent and so are his aides, he just stands there, elbow on the table head resting on his fist attentively following your tale on the table.
When you finish the naval aide speaks up. "Why did you break off contact with the wounded British battleships?" Kaiser Wilhelm raises himself and joins in. "Yes, why did you? It seems odd when you had the chance to crush several more ships, not just Dreadnought."
You glower at the aide, but answers in a calm voice: "We had received uncertain reports on enemy strength to the northeast. We could not know what kind of forces, or numbers of them, we were likely to meet. I considered the battle won and decided to turn for home. Perhaps we could even draw the British main force to our second line of ships and give them a workout like we had on the forward force."
Again the aide speaks up. "I see, but when you noticed there were but enemy battlecruisers, and even in lesser numbers to your own line, why didn't you turn to engage once more?" Again the Kaiser is in agreement.
"Well, it was indeed tempting, but it would have served nothing. The British battlecruisers were fresh, we were getting engaged by three new battleships from the west and we were getting tired. Had we turned the three battleships would have gotten easy shots at us, the battlecruisers would just have retired to safety, perhaps an even greater force of battleships. Damage to them would have been rather light. This way we got the most damage onto them." The last was a lie, but it was actually something you had thought at the time, now was not the time to expose that, if ever.
"Hardly very aggressive action... I would have charged the British battleships running for safety." The Kaiser was once more focused on the table.
"With all due regard My Lord, that would not have been good. To sink four more ships for a few of our own, or heavy damage to them... Well, that would not have served us much, and that does not factor in the possible chance of running into a large British force. Remember what we nearly lost at Jutland."
The Kaiser frowns at your shoot-down of his comment, then waves his hand for you to continue to the other battle, now called the Third Battle of Heligoland Bight. A few comments is all you get from it and you get the feeling that it went down well.

You look at the large clock on the wall, it is time to get back to the bridge, you will arrive soon.
At the bridge you get a report that the three battleships are going to cross in front and salute the Kaiser. He looks most pleased with this and goes onto the port bridgewing to get closer. Just then, a mere three kilometers in front the three ships in a dense line ahead fires a broadside in succession. The deep roar of each seems to both shock and please Kaiser Wilhelm and he takes it all in, almost trying to sniff at the air to get a scent of cordite.
When he gets in again you explain that they are the outer escort for him, that they will deal with everything out there. He is most pleased that you take his safety to heart but comments: "I'm sure I'm safe here. Are we not in German waters?"

After the great lunch, where ample amounts of wine was served you return to the bridge to observe gunnery and maneuvers. For hours the ships is thrown into strange maneuvers, such as torpedoevasion and ramming. The crew hustling to their various positions for each maneuver.
In the late afternoon you are passed by by the raiderforce, each ship also saluting as they pass. As the last ship in the line has fired their hoist the signal "For Germany". Upon hearing that the Kaiser orders a return salute, for as he mentions "they might die tonight, then let them at least die honoured." And as the guns belch out fire the Kaiser stands at attention saluting forcing you to follow suit.
After this the torpedoboats do their 'attack' on you, you evade and let the two light cruisers of the escort charge in between while the secondary gun blast away.
Finally as the sun sets you inform the Kaiser that you will now return to port, there is nothing more to do today. Besides both Rheinland and Westfalen has suffered damage to their boilers when they connected with a sandbank, so they can escort you in. But to your dismay the Kaiser wants nothing of it, he has gotten a taste of the sea in a battleship, despite the raising swells. Swells caused by strong winds, which has also grounded the zeppeliners. Not entirely bad for them as they need rest, but it has left you blind about the outside of the Bight for most of the day.
The Kaiser wants to spend a night at sea, to see how the crew fights at night. For while he was quite impressed with the accuracy at day he wants to know how good you are at nightbattles.

As your orders for this are carried out you retire once more to the cabin, which you will ahve to share with the captain, as his gets handed over to the Kaiser. You smalltalk for a while until he sends out the aides. He waits until they are all out and the door closed before turning his attention to you.
"Admiral, you seem to be an intelligent fellow, one who will know important information when presented with it." You are uncertain what this is about, but you listen. "It can't be doubted that we can't win any longer if we stay on the defensive, and neither can we win if we try to bleed the Allies dry. The greedy Americans have joined the fight, and that will be like fighting another Russia, just with better weapons and training. I can't allow that to happen, and neither can my generals. They have come up with a plan to win the war before the Americans can properly join the fight."
Now it was getting interesting, but you wondered where you got involved.
"I can see you are not certain what is going on, but know this: On the 18th of this month we will launch a great offensive. With new tactics, training and weapons I have little doubt it will be able to do much. But I hold no illusions that it will sweep the British and French away, the war has simply hardened them too much for that. I need your help!"
"What can I do my Lord?" You asked, eventhough you knew the answer.
"Simply I need you to sever the Anglo-Franco connection. Or at the least draw attention away from the front. I need the British to be looking for chances that we might be landing on the coasts of Kent, East-Anglia or Northumbria, or just have them divert more resources to their fleet that could have been used more effectively in the trenches. I need you to be aggressive!"
And there it was, the need to seek out the enemy and fight him. At least you didn't get ordered to fight a major fleetaction, though it was implied that it would be best. "The High Seas Fleet will do it's job for the German nation!"
"And I wouldn't have it any other way. I understand that Baden's sisterships Sachsen and Würtemberg are nearing completion? And the three battlecruisers of the Mackensen class are also getting there. Not to forget the six other units of the Cöln class light cruisers. I might be able to help in these matters as I quite like you for your achievements, for while the Army has requested the big guns for the upcoming offensive I can see some reason in having them come out and help when the going gets rough at sea."
Before you can answer you are interrupted by a young lieutenant barging in. "Your Majesty," he quickly comes to attention, then turns to you "Herr Admiral! Grave news, we have recieved a messages from Stralsund and Augsburg protecting the minesweepers, they are under attack from at least a single heavy unit and several light cruisers. The raidingforce is unaccounted for."
You jump to your feet and run to the bridge, there the crew is milling about trying to get to grips with this. Behind you the Kaiser and his aides file in. You turn about and order the aides out, there is no room for them. You don't bother to see if they comply but scan the horizon. Suddenly a short string of faint flashes are seen to the north. You look at the captain. "Herr Admiral we merely thought it was lightning, it has after all been gearing up for that."
"Send Nassau right away! It is her job to protect the Kaiser."
Puzzled Kaiser Wilhelm ask you. "But if there is a heavy unit would she not possibly be overpowered? You can't just send her to her death..."
"I'm not, I'm hoping her arrival will throw off the enemy force and send them running, we have to do something to save the minesweepers and escorts. Besides we haven't got any other units that can help out."
"Of course you do! And it is something a lot stronger than Nassau."
"My Lord! No! My job it to protect you, not to send you into needless danger against an undetermined enemy."
"And I won't have you risk the lives of my brave countrymen when there can be done more. Send Baden as well!"
"Then at least transfer to P-43 while we help them out."
"Have you seen the swells? It would be directly dangerous to me if I tried. I have to stay."
Seeing that his mind is made up you stop trying to reason with him.

Sailing towards the lights of the battle at full speed you soon link up with Nassau but she can't keep up with you in the heavy swells. In front of you the two light cruisers spread out to cover more sea while the torpedoboats goes into packmode, trailing the cruisers.
More and more desperate messages comes in from the two light cruisers and after a while Augsburg reports that Stralsund is incapacitated and on fire, while she herself is being ripped to pieces by many smaller guns and a number of bigger ones. The minesweepers have spread out and are apparently making good their escape though three have been sunk or set on fire.
Finally the raidingforce reports that they got lost in a squall of rain and didn't see the flashes, but are now speeding to intercept.

The Kaiser urge the boilercrews to work even harder, this brings a cheer from below and the speed rises with almost a full knot to 21. Despite the ship is tested to 22 knots it is a remarkably fast speed for the situation.
As you get closer to the action you can make out searchlights, a ship drifting on fire and another feverishly twisting and turning under the lights and several shapes of broken ships. Increadibly the Augsburg is still afloat, sailing and fighting, but she is also on fire and won't last much longer.
Suddenly new lights are lit from the east, but instead of the poor Augsburg they focus on one of the enemies, a British destroyer. A few seconds later numerous guns on up on her. The first shots boil the water around her, but few hits are scored, but the next round has her riddled with hits.
The enemy force notices this and shifts it's aim. A brutal melee ensues and you see hits and gunflashes all over the place, searchlights locking enemies in place. Even machineguns open up, noticeable with their clear tracers.
But before you can get into proper range to scare the enemy (they wouldn't hear your guns and the aim would be too bad for them to notice the splashes) you see the German forces pull back, leaving Augsburg another light cruiser and several torpedoboats to the mercy of the British force. But the British do not let the German force escape and the big guns of the enemy units blast away.
Several of the bridgecrews and spotters got glimpses of, the now identified two units, and they are like nothing else out there. Large for a light cruiser, smaller than battlecruisers, better armed than armoured cruisers and more slim in construction.

As the Germans flee to the southeast you observe hits going both ways, but sadly they mostly rip into your raidingforce, and several of them are now also on fire.
Finally after many agonizing minutes where the British searchlights illuminate the the fleeing German forces you let Baden's own searchlights open up. They quickly lock onto one of the large light cruisers leading the British for in the chase. Before the guns open up you get a cahnce to observe her. Almost like a small battlecruiser with a tall observation mast with many small platforms, and two large turrets in classical positions. It is an odd ship but a quite handsome one. Then your guns give it all. At the range of a mere 2 kilometers, they can hardly miss a target of this size. The ship shudders at the guns blaze away, and even before the flash of the blast vanishes you can see hits on the enemy ship. Great chunks of metal are ripped from it and it visibly shudders too.
The enemy ships, surprised once again change targets with their searchlights, and when they find you, you feel blinded. Smaller guns fire at you, but they could have been throwing cookies at you for all the effect they have. Then two great guns open up and they hit home right away, entering the casemate thus blasting a secondary gun from its berthing. Luckily this new enemy is in range of the rear turrets and they quickly engage her.

Around you you see your escort take up the action with the enemy forces and another twiling melee ensues. The two bigger enemy ships concentrates on you, but they are clearly outmatched by your better armour and after six volleys in a standup fight they try to break away in each direction. Both your and their primary and secondary guns give it all they have, and hits are scored all around. Despite your best efforts to chase one of them down it slips away in the darkness. As you head back you begin to notice the carnage. Augsburg is sinking slowly, perhaps salvageable, the other light cruiser Bremse is sinking by the stern and is being abandoned. further south the Frankfurt is dead in the water heavily on fire, and between all this are the sinking hulks of at least six torpedoboats and three minesweepers. A terrible toll, but to your satisfaction you note that three enemy light cruisers have been sunk and four destroyers have likewise been either sunk or incapacitated.

Next to you Kaiser Wilhelm is stiff like a board. He is silent for the first time all day, or at least the first time you notice. This entire engagement took perhaps 15 minutes with you involved and little more than one hour in all, and you can't remember him saying anything, just standing there. You turn to him. "My Lord... It is perhaps time for You to rest?"
"I... I didn't know it would be this intense... You could actually see men get blown to bits, thrown into the sea, on fire running the into the water." He walks to the port bridgewing and looks down on the deck of a British destroyer, it is red with blood of the killed deckcrew. This one was swept by the light weapons of three torpedoboats. Transfixed by the gore he can't turn away, but finally he breaks the lock and takes a quick step to te rear of the wing and hangs over the wall. You know what is going on and simply stand next to him, ushering the other bridgecrew away.
"You see, my Lord, this is the war at sea."
"I see... I will never not see again... This is horrible!"

Once more surprise sets in as guns open up. You own lights are turned off and the other ships all have theirs turned in directions away from you. Thus invisible to the British one of the large cruisers have returned, fire directed at one of the torpedoboats. Her shots miss terribly but the first salvo from your guns are dead on. The entire broadside hits her, primary and secondary guns tear into her. The front turret is nearly blown off as several shells strike it or the barbette, the funnel collapses onto the side and a gaping hole is made in her side. She speeds up once more, soaking up hits from the smaller vessels as she runs, her rear turret doing it's bet to defend the ship, and she manages to get away once more.

In the distance new flashes, this time it is Nassau engaging the other big cruiser. Here the strikes are even better and after the fifth salvo the enemy surrenders in a sinking condition. Nassau quickly picks up the survivors, few really, and maanges to get away from the sinking ship as she rolls over.

You finish your operations with the wreckages as well. Augsburg is taken under tow, while both Bremse and Frankfurt slips beneath the waves. You also manage to bring in a torpedoboat and interestingly a British destroyer that merely got it's electricity knocked out.

It was a terrible engagement, three light cruisers lost, another possibly up for scrap, five torpedoboats sunk and another also up for scrap. And of course the three minesweepers. But you sank three enemy light cruisers and one large cruiser, and another one almost certainly one step from the grave. Four destroyers lost to the enemy is not bad.

It is uncertain how many other ships managed to get away from you, but it seems at least one light cruiser and four destroyers in adittion to the large cruiser.

You enter port late in the night, and the entire trip back the Kaiser spent on the bridgewing 'getting fresh air'. Back in port be quickly disembarks and nearly run for the train. But he informs you that he has not forgotten what he promissed.

So what will it be?

Pick any, none or all ships to be made ready. Be aware resources are limited and too many might cause a slowdown of repairs and thier own finishingdates.

Also, this chapter is not finished...

discovery1

02-20-2006, 06:55

The Kaiser gets a taste of war. Good.

About which ships to push for completion. hmmmm. Either the BBs or the BCs. The BCs would bring more firepower since there are more of them,alhough they apparently lack the firepower of the Bayern class BBs, but they lack the armor of the BBs. Hmmmmm. Push for the BBs.

Oh, where those unusual ships those large light crusiers that the british converted to carriers?

Franconicus

02-20-2006, 08:55

:furious3: Fools! Look what you have done. A completly senseless battle! And what a foolish idea to let the Kaiser sail on a battleship!

The Brits are very agressive. They want to either show their army that the RN still plays an important role or drwa our attention from upcoming operations in the Channel.

What to do now?
First of all, we made some POW's, right! Get information.
Get our forces together. Let them rest. Although I lost the feeling for time once more I guess we should try to get as many ships ready to strike as possible.
Let the zeps rest! I think there is no doubt that we have to make a big offensive operation. We cannot start it if our eyes are tired.:no:

Resume: Get ready and stop all diversions.

By the way, what is Brummer and friends doing? I missed that point!

Rodion Romanovich

02-20-2006, 10:22

A Pyrrhic victory, but nice to finally see it continue after waiting so long for the next chapter! Also despite the losses we captured a British destroyer, some POWs and there's possibly a weak scattered force of surviving British ships out there. I really think we should try to get the zeppeliners out early next morning if the weather allows, and a medium sized force to see if it's possible to mop up remnants of the enemy forces after this battle and possibly engage something else. I doubt they'd expect a counter-action so soon after the losses we took during the night. THEN I suggest we plan for the big engagement we've been striving for.

AggonyDuck

02-20-2006, 11:30

Atleast we need to interrogate the british survivors, because I am quite curious over what forces we were facing tonight. Anyways I believe we atleast faced HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious. today and that would propably mean we faced the 1st Light Cruiser Division of the Grand Fleet. ;)

I believe either completing Sachsen or Würtemberg would be the best for us. :2thumbsup:

King Kurt

02-20-2006, 12:20

Definately was the Courageous and Glorious - a definate miss match - they had paper thin armour, so even the 1 that got away will not be bothering us again. This action shows the English admiral as fool hardy in the extreme - Courageous and Glorious should not have been risked in a night action. Their advantage is speed and big guns - i.e. long range - so the melee of a night action is the last place for them. They were far better suited for catching convoy raiders.
I say ask the Kaiser for the 2 BBs and as many light cruisers as possible. Our light forces are low and have just taken a bit of a beating. I would be almost tempted to ask for the Kolns first, but the BBs realy strengthen our line.

Time for rest and training - I think we can rest the Zeps a bit as well.

The Spring offensive starts later this month, so we do not have much time.

We need a ruse to get the whole fleet out with out alerting the English. I still favour the fleet manouvers at sea on regular days with a return to harbour at night - only one day, we do not.

Kraxis

02-20-2006, 16:57

When I said that you could chose any ship I meant you could also select a single ship.
The Mackensen class BCs will carry the big 15 inch guns that the Baden carries, and in a similar layout. So firepower is equal.

Mind you, the enemy was ripping your light forces to shreds before you managed to bring Baden to the battle. It is even likely your own light forces would have been overwhelmed had you not been there. The two large cruisers definately gave the British forces a serious advantage in firepower.
As to the reason of the British attack... well I can't say.

Unfortunately the winds are too strong for zeppeliners, which might explain why the British managed to get inside the minefield unnoticed.

AggonyDuck

02-20-2006, 18:51

Actually if we're going for the big engagement, then we should put all our effort in getting most of our damaged ships battleready. Even if we could get Sachsen or Würtemberg ready by the engagement, we would still need a lot of time to train up the crew and time is something we don't have. :no:
So I believe we should put all effort in making sure most of our damaged ships are ready as soon as possible.

Franconicus

02-20-2006, 20:50

DemonArchangel

02-20-2006, 22:40

Ok first thing's first Kraxis

Nice work.

Secondly, I get this feeling that the British have overwhelmingly more resources than we (the Germans) do. Whatever we do, we can't just sit around and try to get into a war of attrition with them, because in the long run, we'll lose. And try to get as much trained crew ready as possible. Even if we manage to scrape together a superior fleet, we might lose due to having inexperienced and poorly trained crews. (see Trafalgar)

Kraxis

02-21-2006, 00:47

I forgot to answer Franc's question.

Bremse was Brummer's sistership and the one that accompanied her on the convoy raid. Now, obviously, she is lost, and Brummer herself hasn't been out raiding since that time in autumn. It is not as if she is some sort of specialist in convoy raiding.

Kommodus

02-21-2006, 02:42

So what will it be?

Pick any, none or all ships to be made ready. Be aware resources are limited and too many might cause a slowdown of repairs and thier own finishingdates.

Can you give us a summary of the status of our ships? I can't remember at this point which ones are still being repaired, how severe the damage is to them, and how much longer repairs will take.

I also don't think it was a bad idea to take the Kaiser to sea, despite what has happened. The problem was that we sent an inadequate force to attack the British minelayers, not realizing that the British would have their own strong forces there.

The British certainly are continuing to be aggressive. If only we could get local superiority against one of their detachments and blow it to pieces before reinforcements could arrive.

Lord Winter

02-21-2006, 02:59

Great chapter, greatly written.

I also don't think it was a bad idea to take the Kaiser to sea, despite what has happened. The problem was that we sent an inadequate force to attack the British mine layers, not realizing that the British would have their own strong forces there.
Agreed, but in hindsight we shouldn't have attacked when the Kaiser was there.

Now i think we should just rest maybe some maneuvers and gunnery practice but with only half our force at a time. That way we can at least rest the other half.

IMHO our overall strategy should be to smash convoys then draw them in and destroy them. Piece by piece.

Kagemusha

02-21-2006, 03:01

I wont answer before the chapter is Finished.The Brits are up to no good.I can sense it.:inquisitive:

discovery1

02-21-2006, 03:32

I also don't think it was a bad idea to take the Kaiser to sea, despite what has happened. The problem was that we sent an inadequate force to attack the British minelayers, not realizing that the British would have their own strong forces there.

"Herr Admiral! Grave news, we have recieved a messages from Stralsund and Augsburg protecting the minesweepers, they are under attack from at least a single heavy unit and several light cruisers. The raidingforce is unaccounted for."

Seems like it wasn't our raiding force that got trashed, or at least wasn't what the Bits attacked. Rather they seem to have had a similar idea and attack our minesweepers. Is this interpretation correct Kraxis?

And I think it was actually a good thing that that the Kaiser was out on the BB at the time. If he wasn't, then we would not have had strong forces out to counter the British raiders, unless by some butterflies we choose to send out the strong convoy raiders. Result being we wouldn't even have the sunk/captured British ships for our lost light forces.

Oh, Kraxis question: How badly will this hurt our ability to keep the gap open?

And one more thing: anyone care the guess the odds that the British attempt to try another raid like this? Low I would think.....

AntiochusIII

02-21-2006, 03:41

I wont answer before the chapter is Finished.The Brits are up to no good.I can sense it.:inquisitive:Agreed. After all those victories they are still as wild as a Lockness. :dizzy2:

Let's wait for the full information before managing our forces for the big engagements. I think, though, that the Kaiser's trip is a great success, at least on his part of the operation (the raiding part is, well...). He now sees the German navy in action, proud and (Pyrrhic, but hey) victorious, but also the brutality of the war. He won't expect too much from us, but also won't downplay our requests. If there was no battle he would've expected us to storm the Buckingham. If we show ourselves to be confident as ever after such a "brutal" battle the Kaiser would also respect our nerves. :2thumbsup:

Kraxis

02-21-2006, 04:00

Your own force never managed to attack the British, it was caught on the inside, while the minesweepers were preparing the opening. While I can't say that disc was right (I can't comment on the plans on your enemies) I can as a person say that it certainly looks like the British had much the same plans, does it not? Similar force, similar ways of getting in/out (supposed) and hte same time more or less.

Derfflinger, Moltke and König Albert are nearing completion, in fact they are ready to fight, but need some cosmetic repairs.
Remaining in need of repairs are Von der Tann (another couple weeks), Hindenburg (minor repairs to electrical and rangefinding equipment) and Kaiserin (another couple weeks), but Hindenburg can actually sail should the need be.

This nightly battle was quite cheap for Baden, five dead and another three wounded, a single secondary gun out of action and some lesser equipment damaged. The good armour held up very well, but the British also hit many times in the strong beltarmour. The repairs should be short and can be done while the ship is still active.
Augsburg is basically out of the war, as her repairs will be quite extensive, but she can hardly be scrapped either as her equipment has no target... yet. The British destroyer is easily repaired, but she will still need to have her guns replaced as you have no ammo for the British weapons. Your own torpedoboat should be ready soon enough. The other ships involved in the battle shold be ready to fight in a few weeks at the most. Of course Nassau wasn't hurt.

The losses to the minesweepers was negliable. They are small wooden boats, often not more than 100 tons with a crew of 15 or so. They will be ready again right away.

discovery1

02-21-2006, 04:14

While I can't say that disc was right (I can't comment on the plans on your enemies)

Now I feel like an idiot for my wording :oops: I meant to communicate was that was I right in thinking that they attacked our minesweepers

Anyone have an idea what else the brits might be doing there? We have much in the way of convoys in the north sea?

The losses to the minesweepers was negliable. They are small wooden boats, often not more than 100 tons with a crew of 15 or so. They will be ready again right away.

Excellent. Thank you.

How long will it take to get the Hinbenburg full operational? 'Rangfinding equipment' sounds rather important.

And thanks for taking the time to make this. I know that even if I had it, I would be far too lazy.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-21-2006, 04:24

I agree with Discovery, it looks like the British had much the same plans as our own. I doubt they'll try again though, we bloodied their noses fairly well.

I also think this is a sign that the Tommies are stretched too thin and are trying to put us back on the defensive. So now all we must but unsheath our knives again and sever their relationship with their testicles.

Franconicus

02-21-2006, 07:58

Agreed. After all those victories they are still as wild as a Lockness. :dizzy2:

Let's wait for the full information before managing our forces for the big engagements. I think, though, that the Kaiser's trip is a great success, at least on his part of the operation (the raiding part is, well...). He now sees the German navy in action, proud and (Pyrrhic, but hey) victorious, but also the brutality of the war. He won't expect too much from us, but also won't downplay our requests. If there was no battle he would've expected us to storm the Buckingham. If we show ourselves to be confident as ever after such a "brutal" battle the Kaiser would also respect our nerves. :2thumbsup:
I do not agree. First of all the admirality and the Generalstab will be crazy because we risked the life of the Kaiser. Then propaganda will tell that the Kaiser himself led the battle to an outstanding victory (he repelled the Entende landing forces!!). After a day or two he will believe his own propaganda. He will interfere, change our plans, order an attack against the Buckingham and maybe insist on leading the operation. I can see a bad moon rising!

I would order the repair teams to get all ships ready wiothin two weeks. This sounds reasonable if they work day and night (and I guess the Kaiser will make them to). Will we be able to strike in time then. I guess so.

The Brit destroyer: Did we get the radio code?

AntiochusIII

02-21-2006, 08:27

I do not agree. First of all the admirality and the Generalstab will be crazy because we risked the life of the Kaiser. Then propaganda will tell that the Kaiser himself led the battle to an outstanding victory (he repelled the Entende landing forces!!). After a day or two he will believe his own propaganda. He will interfere, change our plans, order an attack against the Buckingham and maybe insist on leading the operation. I can see a bad moon rising!That's pretty pessimistic. Wilhelm II wasn't that bad! ~;)

...I think.

Franconicus

02-21-2006, 09:10

He was! He was vain (that was one of the catalyst for WW1)! He was erratic, he changed from enthusiasm and frustration! And in 1918 he had nothing to say.

Kagemusha

02-21-2006, 14:29

Now after little bit of thinking i have come to the conclusion that British are becoming more and more agressive.What we need to do now is to get as many as possible ships in sailing condition.Start heavy recon so get the balloons in the air and with good recon we should be able to set up a trap for the English.If possible lure the English inside the minefields with large numbers and set up a fight thats not very suitable for their bigger fleet.If we can get them in a narrow space their numbers can turn out to be a problem for them.:bow:

King Kurt

02-21-2006, 16:20

I think we need to start thinking about our masterstroke to support the Spring offensive. From the Kaiser's comments, he expects a strike at the Channel ports to interfere with the flow of men and material - especially the Americans. We need to strike at the nearest to give us the maximum time to deliver a significant blow without the main English Fleet engaging us and overwhelming us.
The enemy's nearest base is harwich - so something with block ships and the captured destroyer may work there. The port we could attack could be Calais - it is the nearest and would inhibit the movement of troops and material.
So dust off those pre-drednaughts, get all fixed with minerails and let us start planning the master stroke.
Up to now, the English have had the inititative, but we have blooded their nose at every turn. They are so bent on attack that we should use that to our advantage.~:cheers:

Ludens

02-21-2006, 16:48

I second all King Kurt's suggestions, especially about resting the blimps. They were invaluable in our earlier engagements: let's not waste them before the fight. However, I would like to know first what we are going to do before deciding which ships should get repair priority.

The RN is indeed very aggressive, and so far our successes has been part luck en part good reconnaisance. I think we can anticipate further attacks and therefor should set up regular patrols on the blight (without expending the zeps).

On the other hand, I recall that several British ships were in drydock. The RN is weakened at the moment, so a defensive posture on our side may be exactly what they want. I doubt the ships will be in drydock in one month time.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-21-2006, 20:21

No, we definately need to continue offensive operations. They seem to be getting a bit desperate to turn the tide, because though they far outnumber us we generally decided where the battle was fought, if it was fought, and because of that they have to protect their convoys. I think we should plan an attack in force against something, perhaps any large convoy we can find or a similar target of opportunity, but basically we need to manuever in such a way that we have local superiority.

We should definately not sit on our buts until the Spring Offensive, the Tommies will be back from dry-dock with a fresh coat of paint and a great desire to burn away the dishonor of their past defeats with a decisive victory over us.

Flavius Clemens

02-21-2006, 23:41

Firstly, thanks Kraxis for an excellent chapter – the writing just gets better! :bow:

Considering the immediate issues:

I’m sure in preparation for the major land offensive a few newspaper headlines along the lines of “Valiant Kaiser leads the fleet to another glorious victory, while King George sits at home sipping tea” will help national morale, and annoy the Brits, even though the price of the ‘adventure’ will undoubtedly be anger from the admiralty at the risk to the Kaiser’s life. Ah well, not every great admiral got on with their superiors!

Morale and efficiency of the Zeppelins will be crucial, so a thank you from the Admiral’s wine cellar is definitely in order, and how about a medal or two – posthumous presumably (and while we’re at it, don’t leave the fleet out of the medals).

On the Kaiser’s offer to push for quicker completion of the ships under construction, I suggest concentrating initially on one of the Mackensen class battlecruisers. Given our orders to disrupt cross channel traffic and distract the British, bolstering our ability to deploy a heavy punch at speed and cover as much sea as possible will help.

Looking ahead:
No firm decisions till the chapter is finished, but some thoughts
- any chance we get to go mob handed against a weaker RN capital force would be good, but as the land offensive is little more than a week away I doubt we’ll get much chance before we need to focus on the Channel.
- We should rest most of the Zeps for the big push, but we need to keep an eye on the area around the minefield so we know how strongly the RN are defending the gap. If there’s a strong force there easily capable of crossing our T as we go through the minefield, it may be better to take the long way out via the Kiel Canal. Given this I wouldn’t make any significant use of the canal for any other purpose at the moment, so we don’t put it in the Brit’s mind,
- Get the older ships ready, both as potential block ships and as decoy forces for when we do go into battle – the more we can thicken the fog of war by having multiple fleets at sea, with the Brits uncertain as to which is the real threat, the better.

Franconicus

02-22-2006, 08:50

So are these the conclusions:

- get the main fleet ready within the next days
- let the Zeps rest until then
- let us make a plan for a strategic strike with our complete fleet
- then start the operation with Zep recon
- Then strike with the whole fleet, tactical elements of our plan could be Zep recon, razzle-dazzle with our old ship fleet, the captured destroyer, sink own ships to block ports, ... and the raiders?

Kraxis, now that the Kaiser is our 'brother in arms' we could ask for more Zeps. Additionally the subs could do some recon for us. I know they are occupied, but recon for a week or two would not distract them too much from their main task.

Flavius Clemens

02-23-2006, 22:54

Largely agree, but on this

So are these the conclusions:

- let the Zeps rest until then

weather permitting I would keep one Zep with an eye on the Brits just beyond the minefield in case they try anything else.

Kraxis

02-24-2006, 15:56

...
Early morning on the 10th you finally get the reports on the damages to the ships, both new and the docked ships. You nod at this. It is going good, in fact the ships are being repaired at an increased rate, and the damages suffered in the nightbattle was negliable to both Baden and Nassau. Even better the minesweepers bravely reentered the field in another place late in the night and did their job despite the losses they had suffered, and the lack of a proper escort.

As you have read through the day's reports, you lean back and think what the fallout will be. At least the Admiralty will be on the phone soon, and it is not unlikely that Wilhelm will do his to interfere again. But one can hope that he got scared and disgusted tonight. The battle was too late for any newspapers to get it in print, so at least you haven't got to deal with that reality.
Well, might as well send the schnaps and wine to the zeppeliners now. You get up and call for you aide and give him the order. A case of good wine for the officers and a couple of lesser wine to the crewers and of course a case of schnaps. Hopefully this will boost their will a bit more.
In the late morning the call finally comes. The Admirality is in uproar!
"How on Earth could you risk the life of the Kaiser?!?! Are you that foolish!?" is all you hear when you grab the phone. For the next ten minutes you are assaulted with various comments on your capabilities, even a single one that comments on your mother's job and your birthrelation to that. But you have not become an admiral and the commander of the High Seas Fleet by getting riled up at such as this. A point is also made at the loss of the raiders. "What is going on? You have lost four light cruisers already, and another is not likely to sail ever again, that leaves us a measly 12 light cruisers, two of which need to be on station at all times on the Bight and another two as a reactionforce. We can't afford such losses anymore." There is truth to that. Without proper numbers of light cruisers your fleet will be practically blind, save for zeppeliners, and weak against torpedoattacks from British destroyers, which are generally stronger than your torpedoboats, especially at night.
Finally the assaults are over, and you argue your case back and forth. In the end you win out, you get the feeling it is because of your previous successes. In the end you even manage to get them to release some more resources for repairs, but they can't spare any guns for the British destroyer. The the surviving 8 guns of Augsburg might be an option though. It might very well be a good option, and the conversation is over.

Over the next couple of days you oversee the repairs of the ships, direct the effort to the most critical aspects and by the morning of the 13th you are informed that Hindenburg is ready for action, so is Derfflinger.
But unfortunately you are also informed that the British have made aggressive action in the skies over the Bight. Their airships have repeatedly charged the zeppeliners, and in their state of low morale they have backed down, believing the airships have finally been armed properly. At least they have managed to observe a British force of some 11 battleships sitting on the edge of the Bight, closely watching any developments.
The morning also sees a report from the spies in Britain. Again they report on the damaged ships. It seems that most of the ships are still under reapairs, but they also report that an odd ships has joined the Grand Fleet. It is fairly big, with a great box on it, but besides that they have no idea what it is.

Last in the pile of reports is one from Intelligence. This is odd since the spies have already reported, so with some interest you read it.
The interrogation of the 1587 prisoners have granted you some insight into the workings of the enemy. The force sent at you consisted of six lgiht cruisers (two were the large light cruisers Courageous and Glorious, Glorious was sunk) and eight destroyers. Apparently one light (Aurora) and large cruiser got away with four destroyers. The light cruisers were all quite fast and heavily armed with 6 inch guns, and all 14 ships were upgraded with searchlights and light deckweapons, such as small guns and machineguns. It is also learned that they had not expected such a strong response to a simple raid of your minesweepers. The interrogators also get info that British battleforce outside the minefields is very strong, the latests British battleships, but it is lead by Rear-Admiral Evan-Thomas, an old school Admiral, but capable and unflinching in face of danger.
After reading it you pick up the newspaper... And sigh. The story of the nightbattle has entered the press.
"KAISER WILHELM BEATS THE ROYAL NAVY TO A PULP
KING GEORGE GOES FOXHUNTING"
A lengthy account of the battle, involving six British battleships, with Wilhelm directing the gunfire and the tactics, but surprisingly the account of the losses is extremely accurate. The heroics of Wilhelm is disgusting to read. Sure he wanted to go, but he couldn't stomach the war or the results. You shake your head. A propagandacoup to be sure, but what will the results be?
You are certain the British will try to avenge their loss of prestige in this matter. And that can't be good at all.
Thinking of Kaiser Wilhelm brings back his promiss of help with new ships. So far you haven't thought much about it, but given the schedule of things you are not certain they will help much with inexperienced crews. But then again, they are most assuredly wanted... Numbers, that is your problem. And rearranging the crews a bit should make any new ship at least fairly capable. You assign yourself to think it over some more after you read the specs of the ships. The Mackensen class battlecruisers are expected to be able to sail no less than 29 knots, with strong armour and 8 15 inch guns. While the armour is going to be slightly less than on the Hindenburg is it better angled and placed, causing a slight increase in protectability.
The Cöln class light cruisers you are somewhat familiar with since Cöln herself has entered service. She has repeatedly sailed more than 29 knots (usually light crusiers sail 27-28 knots), is armed with 8 5.9 inch (150mm) guns and a range of lesser guns and torpedotubes, thus heavily armed for a light cruiser.

On a better account the crew of the lost zeppeliner has apparently liked the little gift from you very much, and has had their spirits lifted. They offer to take a zeppeliner and scout out Scapa Flow. They know that it will be patrolled by fighters, but if they arrive in early morning, as the light is only slipping over the horizon, the ships will be visible, while their zeppeliner will be invisible on the black backdrop of the night. They expect that they can get very valuable info on the RN.
Also an army officer on visit at the zeppeliner base commented on how effective it wouldn't be if cannons were mounted on them. Colonel von Brasch, while deflecting this comment as impractical couldn't help but think about it a bit, and later came up with an idea of positioning a 77mm AA gun in the nose of the larger zeppeliners. It is not that heavy without the carriage and the structure of the rigid zeppeliner should make it strong enough to with stand the stress of firing.

You also begin to consider your options now. It seems it is time to setup a strategy for the coming operations.

So what will it be?

1)
A: Arm the British destroyer with the guns of Augsburg. She will be very hevily armed.
B: The guns will be better off in reserve for any other damage suffered to other light cruisers.

2) Scouting Scapa Flow
A: Let them go. They will fly tonight and report in tomorrow morning. This might boost the low morale.
B: Keep them back. It is too risky for little to no gain. Their loss could be costly.

3) Arming the zeppeliners
A: Don't dabble with gun and zeppeliners. Too much can go wrong. Stability, structural strength, explosions.
B: This might very well be the edge the zeppeliners need to be brave again. It might even scare fighters away.

4) Strategy. This impacts the options of the next few chapters.
A: Defensive. The Grand Fleet is actively trying to attack you. Let them, and strike at them in exposed positions, such as if they sneak in once more. Focus will be on the Bight, both inside and outside the minefields.
B: Special operations. Convoy hunting, portstrikes, short sallies, perhaps even landing some special formations of infantry on the British coast.
C: Offensive. Actively seek out the British forces with strong forces. Retake the Bight for operations in the near future.

Don't forget to comment on the ships the Kaiser has offered to help you with.
And be sure to combine your options as some obviously don't mix well.

DemonArchangel

02-24-2006, 16:42

Strategy:

B and C

Guns: Reserve them, we always seem to be short on parts anyway.

Scapa Flow: The risk is rather too high. If possible, have the Zepplins take positions in the night outside of searchlight range and then begin moving back during the night immediately.

Zepplins: Try to mount a pair of rapid firing 20mm cannon instead of the large AA gun that was previously suggested. The 20mm guns should perform well against airplnaes and the chances of the recoil tearing the cupola to pieces should be minimal.

Kommodus

02-24-2006, 17:19

1. B

I don't see the point right now in adding a heavily armed captured British destroyer to our fleet. We need light cruisers more, and if any are damaged in the future, we may need those guns. However, we may want to reconsider this if little damage occurs to the light cruisers.

2. A

Good intelligence is always nice to have. If the zeppelin crewmen believe they can do it, I say let them.

3. B

We don't want our zeppeliners fleeing from British airships. If this is the edge they need to take down their counterparts, let's do it. Although DA's suggestion of using the 20mm rapid-firing cannon is probably better than the 70mm AA gun. I don't expect airships to contend with fighters anway, no matter what you arm them with - they are too slow and too big a target. But they should be able to knock out enemy airships.

4. This is the hardest and most significant choice to make. I'll hold off and decide later.

Concerning the ships: It's tempting to go with the stronger battlecruisers for sheer fighting ability. However, we've recently lost some important light cruisers, and our light forces were recently shown to be overmatched against the British light forces. We could use some fast, heavily-armed light cruisers, so given a choice, I'd say pick them.

Kagemusha

02-24-2006, 17:26

1)
A: Arm the British destroyer with the guns of Augsburg. She will be very hevily armed.

Arming the ship with the heavy guns can create us an unique chance of tacticall opportunity.

2) Scouting Scapa Flow
B: Keep them back. It is too risky for little to no gain. Their loss could be costly.

This is not the time and also i have a very clear image what that box carrying British ship is.~;)

3) Arming the zeppeliners
B: This might very well be the edge the zeppeliners need to be brave again. It might even scare fighters away.

Arm the Zeppelins we should have some counter measures against british fighters in the air.

4) Strategy. This impacts the options of the next few chapters.
A: Defensive. The Grand Fleet is actively trying to attack you. Let them, and strike at them in exposed positions, such as if they sneak in once more. Focus will be on the Bight, both inside and outside the minefields.

Be patient the agressivnes of the Brits,will soon point us an opportunity for unique lesson to them in naval warfare.

About the new ships i wellcome as many new ships as possible,this is war afterall.~;)

Kommodus

02-24-2006, 17:40

Ok, I've thought about it and have decided on:

4. C

I believe it's our only chance to succeed in our ultimate goal of severing the link between Britain and France. The strong British force just outside the Bight with a core of 11 battleships must be driven back. They may be strong, but they're a long way from home, and if we strike with all (or most) of our fleet we should have enough to crush them before the rest of the RN arrives.

We shouldn't dilute this option with other options either. The same British force that's watching us closely will not fail to spot our own attempts to sneak out of the Bight. We should strike fast and strike hard.

The British may try a foolish attack, but we don't have the time to wait for them. I still think they're trying to bottle us up, keeping the pressure on so that we're afraid to try any threatening moves. Thus they've already given us the opportunity to strike a decisive blow.

Kraxis

02-24-2006, 19:31

Sorry guys but at this time there weren't any 20mm autocannons in any numbers. In fact they are only on the testing stage, and to be honest the zeppeliners aren't likely to get any of those. Too many risks, too little chance of actual use.
Besides the upgrades are supposed to take effect within a few days. 20mm autocannons will take at least a month to arrive. But 77mm flaks are readily available.

I think you haven't really understood what tactical chances a British destroyer can give you. A ruse... My point of actually including it was to give you a chance of having a wolf in sheepclothes. In actual battleworth it will never be worth getting the guns.
If I have misunderstood your understanding, then disregard my post, I don't want to pull you in any specific direction. But at the same time I do not want you to make choices based on faulty information on my part (remember I might feed you faulty information intentionally).

DemonArchangel

02-24-2006, 19:51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20mm_cannon

Are you sure that it wasn't available? I mean, you could just grab some that would have otherwise gone on aircraft.

Kommodus

02-24-2006, 20:12

If 20mm guns aren't available, go ahead and use the 77mm Flak. It's still better than nothing; my original decision stands.

Regarding the destroyer... hm, I hadn't thought of that. You know, if we get some new Cohn-class light cruisers, our light forces won't be so bad off. Ah, what the hey, change my vote to 1) A and give it the guns. I still don't know exactly what tactical opportunities we'll get, but I'd rather like to find out.

Although I should say - won't adding German guns to a British ship be a bit of a give-away? I mean, it might be kind of hard to tell as long as the ship keeps its distance, but once it starts getting close (or the British use binoculars or something) it seems they'd figure it out.

Kraxis

02-24-2006, 21:21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20mm_cannon

Are you sure that it wasn't available? I mean, you could just grab some that would have otherwise gone on aircraft.
You know... Your little wiki-digging has forced me to go out and search up some stuff, and it appears that the 20mm was indeed used on zeppeliners, but was too unrealiable and retired from use there.

So there you have it. No 20mm autocannons.
But also, remember that the entire point with the 'upgrade' is simply to get rid of the British airships from long range, or at least scare them away. To that effect the 20mm would not be much better than the machineguns already installed. Also time and availability is an issue. It was supposed to happen soon and there aren't many 20mm autocannons around, while the 77mm is a retired artillery piece.

But if you really want it I could add another point of upgrading with a few 20mm autocannons, but because of the problems involved with getting them it costs influence (I'm keeping score). So all, please say if you want to have the 20mm cannons as well (or in case you have said no to the big guns, instead).