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The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 16:06
I think now that its confirmed that Medieval II: Total War is CA's next game, we should keep speculation and news about the game in this thread.

Confirmed game features:


The game boasts an impressive array of new graphical and gameplay enhancements, including the capability for a massive 10,000 dynamic characters to be taken into battle at any one time. On top of this, The Creative Assembly have implemented a fully redesigned multiplayer mode that offers a dynamic multi-battle campaign bolstered by an unprecedented level of visceral combat choreography that reflects the brutality of medieval warfare.

* Set in the most turbulent and bloody era in European history, Medieval 2: Total War will allow gamers to lead their armies across the battlefields of Europe and the Holy Land before discovering the Americas and doing battle with the fearsome Aztecs.
* Medieval 2: Total War offers a vastly enhanced terrain model to create new graphically rich environments portraying breathtaking cliff top castles and enhanced settlement features that are unique to each civilisation. Over 200 new units, greater depth in siege warfare, new weaponry and a highly detailed building damage model all combine to make Medieval 2: Total War the best version of the PC’s greatest strategy game ever made.


Key Features Include:

Real-Time Battles On a Massive Scale

Epic Battles with Enhanced Unit Detail

Thunderous battles on a huge scale with thousands of units on screen. Armies are now made up of meticulously detailed troops built with unique heads, body, weapons and armour with unique animations and poses that gives each individual unit character and depth. Troops and cavalry are decorated with all the heraldic finery and colour of medieval warfare that’s gradually muddied and bloodstained through the course of battle.

New Unit Abilities
A legion of more than 250 new and unique units split over 21 factions, each with their own new special abilities that open up a wealth of intuitive battlefield tactics.

Advanced Combat System
Zoom to the frontline and witness the fast, visceral melee combat enhanced by new spectacular battlefield animations. Troops block and parry attack moves and string together deadly combo attacks and finishing moves before scanning the battlefield for their next kill.

New Explosive Sieges
Embark on spectacular siege battles as huge armies and fearsome siege machines rumble into action. Devastating cannon, pummel imposing defences of fully destructible cities and castles before setting them aflame under the night sky.

Advanced Lighting and Richer Environments
A newly enhanced graphics engine brings the battlefield environment to life like never before. The stunningly realistic landscapes feature detailed vegetation with sprawling settlements. Newly detailed dynamic weather effects beat down on new terrain types illuminated by enhanced lighting that captures every glint and spark as arms and armour clash under a gleaming sun.

Enhanced Multiplayer Battles
New multiplayer battle modes will ease the player’s passage to the battlefield and keep the online conflict raging.

A New All-Conquering Campaign

History in the Making
A huge campaign spanning from the years 1080-1530, that will take the player beyond the first Crusade up until the dawn of the renaissance. An extended campaign map will allow passage to South and Central America bringing the player into battle with the Aztecs.

New Settlement Types
Build through six levels of settlement ranging from humble villages to vast cities and wooden forts to mighty stone fortress. Develop your faction as a feudal aristocracy using you castles to keep the peasants in check whilst conquering your enemies with your powerful armies. Or build cities to develop a wealthy urban society, and battle your foes with diplomacy, bribery, assassination and armies of mercenaries.

A Supporting Cast
Put an array of ancillary characters to work and smooth your path to global domination. Boost your coffers with Merchants. Grease the cogs of diplomacy with Princesses and manage your faction’s path to religious enlightenment with Priests. Charge assassins to wipe out enemy generals and witness their cold-hearted killing first-hand with assassination movie sequences.

Embrace Religion
Will you obey the demands of the Papal States, catering to the whims of the Pope? Or shun his requests and risk facing his fearsome Inquisitors or even excommunication? Make a stand against him and you can infiltrate papal affairs by rigging elections.

Global Crusades
Win favour with the Pope and round up your armies for global crusades at his request. Players can even prompt the Pope to commission crusades as Catholicism wages a spiritual battle against the Muslim, Orthodox and Pagan religions.

Steeped in the richness of the middle ages - Fire dead animals into besieged towns to spread disease, ransom or execute captured nobles, marry daughters into rival families to secure alliances, and even fight in the Crusades under the banner of your religion.

There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.

We've included several factions that weren't included in the original Medieval; examples being Scotland, Venice and Portugal.

The final lineup of playable factions is still to be decided, however there will be a rich variety of factions to play, each with their own unique units and abilities that add a great deal of variation to the grand campaign experience.

As an example, Scotland start with the English breathing down their necks, so they will have to keep their heads down, bide their time, and seek allies. Scotland's army will be a mixed bag of solid lowland spearmen and fierce but unreliable highlanders. They'll have to work hard diplomatically at the start to avoid being overrun by the English, but if they can become the dominant power in Britain, they have a base to expand and seek wider domination.




Pics

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/940/screen20dk.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9310/screen19ib.jpg

And links to the others:

8 more pics (http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=1)

It looks fantastic I'm sure you'll all agree. CA/Sega are expected to officially announce the game later, where we can perhaps expect more pics, exact time frames, factions, map info, gameplay details, etc. These are exciting times no doubt!

KukriKhan
01-20-2006, 16:14
Thanks BKB. We'll sticky this for a bit.

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 16:15
I just want to add that certain aspects of the game look very interesting - it would APPEAR that soldiers within units appear to have different faces, shields, clothing, etc. Although this can't be confirmed yet, if this is the case it would be a first for a Total War game, and would be great. They could be officers/generals, but in that first shot I can spot at least 3 different shields amongst the infantry. Also check out the Knights' lance in the second pic, I can spot many different colours, and those horses surcoats have different patterns too.

Vladimir
01-20-2006, 16:17
I wonder how the recent release of Stronghold II will affect this game. TW games are better but I love the detail of building and running castles. If only we could find a way to merge the two.

dkdnt
01-20-2006, 16:30
well, thos pics sure look great. is there any official or unofficial release date?

just hope it wont be during my finall exams.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 16:45
On a link on the previous topic, speculation. It was supposed to be to screenies but all I got was a message saying 'screenies taken down at the request of sega europe, back online 4pm gmt'. Which is in 15 minutes, perhaps something is about to happen?

dkdnt
01-20-2006, 16:47
well, thos pics sure look great. is there any official or unofficial release date

sorry i didnt saw other thread.

Subedei
01-20-2006, 16:50
Hey guys, check this out...we got some canons and the timeframe is 1080 to 1530 & here's a link 4 some pictures

http://www.pcgames.de/?menu=browser&article_id=445301&image_id=489500

It does look good!

frogbeastegg
01-20-2006, 16:50
:stares at the pretty pictures: Ooooh.

:remembers how excited she was when RTW was first announced. And all that followed.: Oh.

Well. BI was IMO the game RTW should have been, and since the Sega swap there's been better support for the series in terms of patches etc. Also this time it's an evolution, not a revolution, and that usually goes smoother; there's a lot which must have been learned. So I guess my overall feeling at the moment could be summed up as cautiously hopeful.

But regardless of how this turns out, I do have to do this :gives CA one giant cookie to share between them for choosing a medieval setting for the game: It's my favourite time period :gring: You people seem to have an uncanny knack for that; back when RTW was first announced the late republic/early Empire was my favourite bit of history. It always had been, until about a year and a half ago. I think the medieval passion is here to stay.

:waits for the crowd of people to turn up, exclaiming things like "The knights aren't couching their lances properly!" and "Aketons don't lace up down the front!":

Monarch
01-20-2006, 16:51
well, thos pics sure look great. is there any official or unofficial release date?

just hope it wont be during my finall exams.

I hope/believe it will be in 2006. Each year since Shoguns release a TW installment has been released. A new game every two years, with expansion packs filling the gaps. Plus they are not building a new engine so that shouldn't add extra time, my moneys on late 06.

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 16:54
Love the new pics. Just a shame it didn't start at Charlemagne's coronation (800AD) and go on til 1530. Now we're probably gonna get another 'Dark Age' themed expansion pack. While this is still good, its a little bit repetitive I believe. It should have started at 800, ended at 1453 then had an 'Ottoman Invasion' expansion, with things like the New World exploration and more artillery made available.

According to that German site its scheduled for Autumn this year!

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
01-20-2006, 17:00
A cannon and early muskets, looks like we could do something with that...:idea2:

LZoF

matteus the inbred
01-20-2006, 17:01
: "Aketons don't lace up down the front!":

they don't? blast. no wonder they've been laughing at me in the taverns.

great pictures! i'm with Blind King on an Ottoman/near east expansion pack, the Dark Ages was nice novelty but i keep returning to the Medieval period.
TW Conquistadores? the thought of fighting historically accurate battles is pretty grim and probably impossible under the current game engine (300 Spanish against tens of thousands of natives...we'd have to be talking some serious overpowering of the Spanish stats here, and i hate jinettes enough already)

Monarch
01-20-2006, 17:03
To The games description:




he game boasts an impressive array of new graphical and gameplay enhancements, including the capability for a massive 10,000 dynamic characters to be taken into battle at any one time. On top of this, The Creative Assembly have implemented a fully redesigned multiplayer mode that offers a dynamic multi-battle campaign bolstered by an unprecedented level of visceral combat choreography that reflects the brutality of medieval warfare.

* Set in the most turbulent and bloody era in European history, Medieval 2: Total War will allow gamers to lead their armies across the battlefields of Europe and the Holy Land before discovering the Americas and doing battle with the fearsome Aztecs.
* Medieval 2: Total War offers a vastly enhanced terrain model to create new graphically rich environments portraying breathtaking cliff top castles and enhanced settlement features that are unique to each civilisation. Over 200 new units, greater depth in siege warfare, new weaponry and a highly detailed building damage model all combine to make Medieval 2: Total War the best version of the PC’s greatest strategy game ever made.


COPYRIGHT 2001-2006 TOTHEGAME.COM


Discover the Americas looks very cool, looks like a larger map. Also multiplayer campaigns :)

dkdnt
01-20-2006, 17:04
well now i cant wait. why i checked this, i could live in ignorance thinking it would be released for a few years, now i got this expecting feeling. :wall:

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 17:11
Sovereign, my haemorrhoids just dropped reading that description - America and Aztecs, my wishes have finally come true! Awesome stuff.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 17:14
Sovereign, my haemorrhoids just dropped reading that description - America and Aztecs, my wishes have finally come true! Awesome stuff.

Oh also it is officially official http://www.totalwar.com/community/medieval2.htm

Official site and all that.

Now all I need is for play.com to allow me to preorder it!

Edit:
For the first time in the Total War series each troop is an individual, garbed with the rich heraldic colours and glinting arms and armour of the period.

YEY!

Edit: uh oh! Looms like To The Game where out about MP.
Enhanced Multiplayer Battles
New multiplayer battle modes will ease the player’s passage to the battlefield and keep the online conflict raging.

From that, looks like no mp campaign :(

professorspatula
01-20-2006, 17:19
Looks fantastic. I just need a new PC to play it. It makes RTW look like a cartoon in comparison. It seems each unit has at least 3 variations of soldier attire, though perhaps there's a few officers in there messing up things. And is that blood on the back of one of the soldiers in the second picture? Can't be. I can sense some would-be scholars already looking for historical inaccuracies....

I think it's pretty obvious why CA haven't opened up certain things for modders in RTW when their new baby is coming along later in the year.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 17:29
Looks fantastic. I just need a new PC to play it. .

Yeah looks like it's gunna take alot to get it going. I think if I have low settings and such i'll scrape by :2thumbsup:

hellenes
01-20-2006, 17:33
Looks fantastic. I just need a new PC to play it. It makes RTW look like a cartoon in comparison. It seems each unit has at least 3 variations of soldier attire, though perhaps there's a few officers in there messing up things. And is that blood on the back of one of the soldiers in the second picture? Can't be. I can sense some would-be scholars already looking for historical inaccuracies....

I think it's pretty obvious why CA haven't opened up certain things for modders in RTW when their new baby is coming along later in the year.

And as I said they ARE competing with the modding community just look at this:
http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14227

Hellenes

Antagonist
01-20-2006, 17:43
Wow. It certainly looks excellent (unit variations :2thumbsup:) although one should always take promotional material with a few grains of salt, particularly in terms of the scale.

The feature list isn't terribly illuminating though. I'm curious to know how they plan to accomplish extending the map across the Atlantic in particular.

"Multi-battle campaign" seems a little cagey marketing-speak to me. It looks like they've done something to improve the multiplayer experience (which is nice) but I don't think that equates to a multiplayer campaign mode. It would be awesome if it was true though, multiplayer campaign has become a kind of Holy Grail to many TW fans.

I guess one thing that can be inferred is that, while similar in setting and nominally a sequel, this isn't simply MTW on a revamped Rome engine, but a new game entirely, which I suppose could be both a good thing or a bad thing.

Personally my main hope is that the game is more modifiable. The size and vitality of the RTW mod community indicates that RTW was a step in the right direction, but there's still a lot modders wish they could do that RTW doesn't allow, and if MTW2 increases the amount that can be done it would be excellent news.

Antagonist :balloon2:

wlesmana
01-20-2006, 17:45
Let me be the first to say this:

For the love of GOD and the POPE, please, please, PLEEAAAAASE include proper import/export tool for modders!!!

professorspatula
01-20-2006, 17:46
Hmm.. those screenshots have just changed. Heck they're better than the last lot! Look at all those different shields and helmets!

It will make things a little more difficult for modders. Not the good ones, but the more amateurish types like me! You won't be able to get away with as simple graphics and models than before - though saying that, the textures don't look all that detailed in places. The massive screen resolution and improved lighting and glossmaps probably make the units look a bit better than they are. The cities look incredible though.

Catiline
01-20-2006, 17:47
http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=4

A few more here.

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 17:53
Yeah, three totally different ones have appeared now at the top! Just look at that city, and how many different shields there are in that last shot!

I've got a great feeling about this one lads (and ladies), CA have really outdone themselves this time. Now if we can just add more factions to the 21 stated it really will be something special.

Grey_Fox
01-20-2006, 17:59
hehe, bandwidth theft is in progress

Taliferno
01-20-2006, 18:00
::waits for the crowd of people to turn up, exclaiming things like "The knights aren't couching their lances properly!" and "Aketons don't lace up down the front!":

Although I dont know much about the medieval military outside of Ireland, I'll do my part for the Irish units, and try to be as annoying and whinging as possible :inquisitive:

In anycase, there is going to be 21 factions (at anyone time possibly, might be CA have devided up the time periods like in mtw 1). Let the speculation commense as to what these factions will be (Aztecs is 1, and I think the Poles feature in a few of the screenshots).

professorspatula
01-20-2006, 18:02
Hmm... I wonder if there will be a return to multiple concentric walls and the introduction of moats.... I'm not convinced. I guess I'll have to invent a time machine and find out. Or wait to see more... whichever is quickest to achieve.

Lol!

Lovely new pictures by the way. Those are even more 'life-like'. I wonder how many polygons are in those units.

asilv
01-20-2006, 18:03
Two more screenshots from MTW 2 newsletter:
(you can subscribe to it from totalwar.com frontpage)
https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9310/screen19ib.th.jpg (https://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen19ib.jpg) https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/940/screen20dk.th.jpg (https://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen20dk.jpg)
click to enlarge

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:03
Obviously the English too. Hopefully the Aztecs might be an emergent faction, and therefore may not count.

And yes the pics are gone, I'll post links this time.

EDIT: First post has been updated. From now on I'll try and edit that with any new pics and info that emerge.

doc_bean
01-20-2006, 18:07
I just hope they can get the campaign AI right, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't so much the battles that turn me off of RTW but more the overal campain.


Hell, I'm probably going to buy it anyway, I'm weak like that :help:

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:12
He he he *gibbers like an idiot* to France :knight: :knight: :knight: :knight: :duel:

Divine Wind
01-20-2006, 18:15
*Does a stupid little happy dance around the room*

Great news!!! Im delighted they have decided to go back to the Medieval era, yay!

Noooow where are me longbowwws!

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:30
Lets try and guess the factions:

Certs (Well not confirmed but very likely based on historical prominence)

English
French
Holy Roman Empire
Papacy
Spanish
Almohads/Almoravids
Egyptians
Turks
Byzantine Empire
Polish
Hungarians
Danish
Siculo-Normans

What capacity? (A faction in this area will certainly be there but what form will it take?)

Italians (One faction, or a split, with both the Venetians and the Genoese?)
Russia (The Kievan Rus and Novgorod, or just the one Russian faction?)
Aztecs (Can we expect them as a faction, or maybe just rebels with Aztec units? Perhaps the Incas and Mayans will join them? Would this put it past the apparent 21 limit?)

Other possibilities (Includes lesser powers and also later emerging factions)

Swiss
Burgundians
Golden Horde
Swedish
Norwegians
Irish
Kingdom of the Isles
Scots
Welsh
Bretons
Navarrese
Valencians
Portuguese
Ilkhanate
Khwarzimian Empire
Cumans
Bulgarians
Serbians
Wallachians
Teutonic Knights
Crusader States
Latin Empire
Nicaean Empire (1205-1261)
Epirote Empire
Trebizond
Khazars
African faction (depends on how far the map goes down)
Armenians
Georgians
Danishmendid Turks
Karaman Turks
Flemish
Bohemians
Lancastrians/Yorkists (England might divide once the WOTR begins)
Pisans
Knights Hospitaller
Lithuanians
Croatians

Ok some are long shots but there's the pool, now you've got to decide. Thing is, we don't even know how far the map goes, I mean it might go all the way to India for all we know!

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:33
21 factions

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:38
I know, what I posted were all (I think) the possibilities, we have some certs and some not so certain, and hopefully we can speculate which ones we think will be in the game or not.

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:43
fine sorry never mind:oops:

Viking
01-20-2006, 18:43
Holy cow; those screens looks awesome. Is it reflection we see on shiny armour (http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=2)?

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:43
Its alright mate - I just hope they let you add factions so hopefully we can get a good number of those on there!

lars573
01-20-2006, 18:47
Yay they are rehasing MTW *does dance*

It only took them 3 games to need to rehash what they have already done. This not been a very good few weeks. First it seems that my 360 won't be around until Feburary and now this. :furious3: :wall:

DukeofSerbia
01-20-2006, 18:47
https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9076/ssmedieval2nb01openfield4pj.jpg

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3041/ssmedieval2nb02redsurrounded5g.jpg

Odin
01-20-2006, 18:51
Looks like I have to buy a new PC in 06....

I am at work and cant surf extensively, anyword on a more robust diplomacy model? I never did buy RTW so I dont know what it has primarily a STW and MTW player and needless to say the diplomacy aspect of the game can certainly be enhanced.

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:52
What so you think that that is going to be rubbish do you

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:53
All we know is up in my first post at the moment mate.

Crazed Rabbit
01-20-2006, 18:54
Goodness, those screens look good. At least they went with realistic unifroms, none of the cartoony stuff, yay!

And is it just me, or have others noted what appears to be blood on some units-as if they get bloody after getting hit.

EDIT: Has anyone seen any actual keeps? Or is it just walled cities so far?

Crazed Rabbit

DukeofSerbia
01-20-2006, 18:55
But you can sighn up on www.totalwar.com free newsletter. And there's informations on official totalwar site. BKB you pasted them, but it's ok.:2thumbsup:

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:56
no no not you blind king
lars573

Martok
01-20-2006, 18:57
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:


Oh. My. God. [melodramatically drops in a dead faint]


Wow, those are some awfully pretty screenshots. Now if CA can just bring the AI back up to the level it was in Shogun and Medieval (or Medieval 1, I suppose I should call it now), then I'll be a very happy boy!

[EDIT] By the way, I gladly admit to being wrong about the next game. ~:)

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 18:58
no no not you blind king
lars573

I know mate sorry I was talking to Odin when I said that.

DukeofSerbia
01-20-2006, 18:59
It's obvious that knights use the same type of fight as cavalry in Rome TW :idea2: . It's not the good news for me.

boastj
01-20-2006, 18:59
ok im just getting confused i need more sleep

Wikingus
01-20-2006, 19:01
Yumm, these look good enough to eat. :duel:

What I'm looking the most forward to is the multiplayer campaign, if it is in infact! :D

LeftEyeNine
01-20-2006, 19:03
I just try to keep cool since I already did it in the related thread in the Tavern but...

OH MY GOD ! HAIL TO THE CA ! HAIL TO THE MEDIEVAL ERA ! HAIL TO JEFF VAN DYCK'S INSANE SOUNDTRACK ! HAIL TO THE ALMOHADS ! HAIL TO THE DANES ! HAIL TO THE TURKS !

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

:sweatdrop: (It hurts..Whatever.. MTW2 is on the way, I can break every millimeter square of my skull again.)

Templar Knight
01-20-2006, 19:04
Can't wait to see what the campaign will be like, hopefully diplomacy will be better too :2thumbsup:

DukeofSerbia
01-20-2006, 19:06
I will have to buy new graphic card, montheboard and cpu!

Martok
01-20-2006, 19:07
What I'm looking the most forward to is the multiplayer campaign, if it is in infact! :D

Unfortunately, I don't think that's what CA was referring to. It looks like the campaign will once again be limited to singleplayer only....



I will have to buy new graphic card, montheboard and cpu!

Yep, it's definitely time for me to upgrade my computer!

Aenarion
01-20-2006, 19:12
The pictures look very interesting. Thanks for this information BKB. I shall look forward to this!

Thanks, :bow:
Aenarion

Kraxis
01-20-2006, 19:12
ARGH!!!!

This is great!
I so damn love the medieval period it is making me crazy to see this. Reflections on units, different skins, America... Well that lla sounds good but this:

Develop your faction as a feudal aristocracy using you castles to keep the peasants in check whilst conquering your enemies with your powerful armies. Or build cities to develop a wealthy urban society,
is absolutely great!

To me it sounds like you can develop your cities like the ones in RTW, but you can also put down castles in the same province and upgrade them too. Like the RTW forts but with upgrades. Nice!

But... as long as the AI isgood then I do not care much. And as long as the combat isn't too speedy then I'm happy.

TB666
01-20-2006, 19:18
JESUS CHRIST !!!! :jawdrop:
CA really outdone themself this time according to the screenshots. ~:eek:
It's like looking at a beautiful woman, you just can't take your eyes of them.
If I ever have kids I will name one of them CA to honor this :2thumbsup:

dkdnt
01-20-2006, 19:31
i dont have to buy new pc, just new mainboard, cpu and lot of RAM. oh, God im addicted.

if there gona be lot of europian factions and aztecks, how large gona be map??
it must be huge. not that im complainig about it.

TB666
01-20-2006, 19:34
I hope SEGA will have the wits to release this on a DVD instead of cds.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 19:36
In the newsletter it says that the dead units on the floor will also be in 3D. Just another little feature update in case anyone missed it.

Edit: Oh and obviously from flgags in screenies and such there is absolute confirmation (like we need it) thats nations like Turks and English are in.

Kralizec
01-20-2006, 19:47
http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=1

The phalanx is back...I hope they sort out the pathfinding bugs:help:

Mikeus Caesar
01-20-2006, 19:54
Historical innacuracy alert!!

http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=5

Treblichets have wheels! (and yes, i know it's spelt trebuchet)

Oaty
01-20-2006, 19:57
Historical innacuracy alert!!

http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=5

Treblichets have wheels! (and yes, i know it's spelt trebuchet)


Yes some trebuchets did have wheels

So what is the historical inaccuaracy in that picture?

Monarch
01-20-2006, 19:59
Historical innacuracy alert!!

http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=6125&pic=5

Treblichets have wheels! (and yes, i know it's spelt trebuchet)

Wait, do you mean they are not suppose to have wheels, or supposed to that large wheel in the central thats not actually a wheel for movement? (I saw one at Warwick Castle last year that had those wheel type things http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/images/2005/07/19/catapult_300x400.jpg

Viking
01-20-2006, 20:00
I hope SEGA will have the wits to release this on a DVD instead of cds.

Oh yeah, you can be 99,99% sure about that. At the time RTW was released, only a few games had been released on DVD. BI didn`t even fill the capacity of the CD it arrived on.

Samurai Waki
01-20-2006, 20:01
*rubs hands together maniacally* good. good.

Hambut_bulge
01-20-2006, 20:03
And is it just me, or have others noted what appears to be blood on some units-as if they get bloody after getting hit.

Nope, its not just you. According to the official blurb, "Troops and cavalry are decorated with all the heraldic finery and colour of medieval warfare that’s gradually muddied and bloodstained through the course of battle."

And those screenies look fantastic!

Devastatin Dave
01-20-2006, 20:04
This sis great, though i would prefer Shogun 2.:2thumbsup:

Wishazu
01-20-2006, 20:06
wow! looks fantastic but like frogbeastegg i too am cautiously hopefull. Everything looks great and the new features seem superb but im disappointed with their decision to return to previously visited ground. I was hoping for a Napoleonic totalwar game with fully functional fleet actions. nevermind. I just hope the AI is improved.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 20:14
wow! looks fantastic but like frogbeastegg i too am cautiously hopefull. Everything looks great and the new features seem superb but im disappointed with their decision to return to previously visited ground. I was hoping for a Napoleonic totalwar game with fully functional fleet actions. nevermind. I just hope the AI is improved.

Using the Rome engine, I think fleet battles where pretty much always out of the question, as a result, Napolean without naval would have sucked. Which is why I believe NTW will be the next one, the 'revolutionary' step.

Anyhow, interesting bit from Sega.co.uk:


Medieval 2 is steeped in the richness of the middle ages. Fire dead animals into besieged towns to spread disease, ransom or execute captured nobles, marry daughters into rival families to secure alliances, and even fight in the Crusades under the banner of your religion.

Firing dead animals into towns sounds very fun! Ransom captured nobles is also sounding like a great idea.

Edit: http://www.sega-europe.com/en/MediaPlayer/262___screenshots___5654.htm

Did we already see those from other sites?[/bad memory]

boastj
01-20-2006, 20:17
Think about it logically if trebuchets didn’t wheels how would they move them to the battle field

King Ragnar
01-20-2006, 20:20
This is sexily fantastic ~D

Monarch
01-20-2006, 20:22
This is demonically fantastic ~D

Well that's one way of putting it. :dizzy2:

scotchedpommes
01-20-2006, 20:34
Sovereign, ransoming is something that was a feature in the original
Medieval, just in case you were unaware. I'm glad they will have brought
it back.

Also, on the point of individual details on units, would just like to ask, does
anyone remember the Rome preview? Units were individually detailed in that, and
battle dynamics and choreography seemed more complex. That said, that they
have named these specifically as features of the new game would indicate that
these are definite advances that will be made. [Nothing but excellent.]

Am more eagerly looking forward to a return to lengthy, well-balanced battles
featured in Medieval, and a departure from 30 second engagements seen in
Rome. Also very interested in seeing separation of cities from castles or other
fortifications. :2thumbsup:

Templar Knight
01-20-2006, 20:38
This is fantastic ~D

lmao :laugh4:

I wonder if you have dungeons or if you just have the option to ransom or execute. Oh man I am so excited :2thumbsup:

TB666
01-20-2006, 20:38
Think about it logically if trebuchets didn’t wheels how would they move them to the battle field
They built them on site if I remember correctly.
But I guess they couldn't add such a feature so they added wheels for the sake of gameplay.

asilv
01-20-2006, 20:42
Didn't notice this before:

Medieval 2: Total War will be charging its way onto streets in winter 2006.
http://www.totalwar.com/community/press.htm

CA has been really busy lately. They must have started MTW2 (or should I say M2TW :dizzy2:) development right after Rtw was ready while also doing BI and Spartan at the same time ~:eek:.

boastj
01-20-2006, 20:45
Good logic TB666

King Henry V
01-20-2006, 20:46
I need to clean the screen...I've been drooling all over it! And I'm going to be ahead of all those people named juliuscaeser4893 desperately wanting to be called Robin Hood.:laugh4:

Martok
01-20-2006, 20:56
CA has been really busy lately. They must have started MTW2 (or should I say M2TW :dizzy2:) development right after Rtw was ready while also doing BI and Spartan at the same time ~:eek:.


Yes, that's very likely--if anything, they might've started working on Medieval 2 even earlier than that. CA has a history of working on projects for a long time before announcing them. You have to remember, this is a company that started working on Rome as soon as Shogun was released way back in 2000; but they didn't even reveal Rome until 2003 (and of course it wasn't released until 2004)! So yes, the odds are good that Medieval 2 has been in the works since Rome came out, if not before.

The_Doctor
01-20-2006, 20:56
I have just been watchting my Doctor Who DVDs, so now all I can say is:

FANTASTIC!!!

King Noob the Stupid
01-20-2006, 21:04
*Thinks that it will really be a perfect game*
*knows that he'll never have a PC with 3GHz+ dualcore CPU, WGF-compatible ultra1337 PCIe graphics card, 2 GB of RAM and Windows V-crap*
*decides never to visit any total war-related sites again in order to avoid unneccessary sadness:no: *

Taliferno
01-20-2006, 21:06
Lets try and guess the factions:

Certs (Well not confirmed but very likely based on historical prominence)

English
French
Holy Roman Empire
Papacy
Spanish
Almohads/Almoravids
Egyptians
Turks
Byzantine Empire
Polish
Hungarians
Danish
Siculo-Normans

What capacity? (A faction in this area will certainly be there but what form will it take?)

Italians (One faction, or a split, with both the Venetians and the Genoese?)
Russia (The Kievan Rus and Novgorod, or just the one Russian faction?)
Aztecs (Can we expect them as a faction, or maybe just rebels with Aztec units? Perhaps the Incas and Mayans will join them? Would this put it past the apparent 21 limit?)

Other possibilities (Includes lesser powers and also later emerging factions)

Swiss
Burgundians
Golden Horde
Swedish
Norwegians
Irish
Kingdom of the Isles
Scots
Welsh
Bretons
Navarrese
Valencians
Portuguese
Ilkhanate
Khwarzimian Empire
Cumans
Bulgarians
Serbians
Wallachians
Teutonic Knights
Crusader States
Latin Empire
Nicaean Empire (1205-1261)
Epirote Empire
Trebizond
Khazars
African faction (depends on how far the map goes down)
Armenians
Georgians
Danishmendid Turks
Karaman Turks
Flemish
Bohemians
Lancastrians/Yorkists (England might divide once the WOTR begins)
Pisans
Knights Hospitaller
Lithuanians
Croatians

Ok some are long shots but there's the pool, now you've got to decide. Thing is, we don't even know how far the map goes, I mean it might go all the way to India for all we know!

From that list I would say the Swiss, Burgundians, Golden Horde (as they all featured in the original MTW in some way) and possibly the Scots (In order to simulate the difficulties the English had in the British Isles, if nothing else. I chose the Scottish over the Irish as the Scots could share a few unit models with other factions, where as the Irish would require a completley different model set in order to do them justice). The Armenians are another likely faction, in order to make the east more interesting (instead of just Byzantines vs Turks every single game).

There is going to be more than 250 units (does this mean 250 differnet models, or just textures?) spread out over 21 factions, which is about 10 per faction with 40ish as regional units.

Templar Knight
01-20-2006, 21:07
Do you think sea battles are in?

boastj
01-20-2006, 21:08
Where does it say the specs

Devastatin Dave
01-20-2006, 21:09
Yes, that's very likely--if anything, they might've started working on Medieval 2 even earlier than that. CA has a history of working on projects for a long time before announcing them. You have to remember, this is a company that started working on Rome as soon as Shogun was released way back in 2000; but they didn't even reveal Rome until 2003 (and of course it wasn't released until 2004)! So yes, the odds are good that Medieval 2 has been in the works since Rome came out, if not before.
I would just absolutely love to be in their meetings and hear some of the ideas and projects going on behind the scenes. Can you imagine?

TB666
01-20-2006, 21:10
Where does it say the specs
It doesn't.
They haven't been released yet

scotchedpommes
01-20-2006, 21:12
I wonder if you have dungeons or if you just have the option to ransom or execute. Oh man I am so excited :2thumbsup:

Mind, rebels could be executed or enslaved depending on faction. Perhaps they
will have implemented something like that alongside the ransom system.

King Noob the Stupid
01-20-2006, 21:12
Where does it say the specs
Nowhere, it's just what I thought looking at the screenies and the numbers (10000 men per battle and with several different skins per unit), I doubt that it'll be possible to turn off enough of the bells&whistles to make the game playable (and I mean PLAYABLE) with the hardware the below-average gamer like me has got today

Monarch
01-20-2006, 21:15
Do you think sea battles are in?

They would have showed it off ALOT, if it was. Perhaps being the main new feature of the game, added to the fact it's the same old engine I think we can saeftly rule naval battles out.


Sovereign, ransoming is something that was a feature in the original
Medieval, just in case you were unaware.

I wasn't, thanks for filling me in. I'm only a Rome player.

boastj
01-20-2006, 21:16
then why do people keep complaining that they wont have a good enough pc

TB666
01-20-2006, 21:19
then why do people keep complaining that they wont have a good enough pc
Because CA has improved the engine and thus demand higher system spec

Monarch
01-20-2006, 21:19
then why do people keep complaining that they wont have a good enough pc

By the looks of it it's an extremely polished game engine. Compare a Rome siege to some of the released screenies. It almost looks like a new engine.

I think I might buy myself a few 'patches' for my PC, stick of 256mg RAM for instance (I currently have 1gig)

JR-
01-20-2006, 21:23
i hate to be a grouch here, and maybe i'm jumping the gun but..........

whats all this stuff about the aztecs when there is no mention of the east????

>runs mental equation<
>choice<
>flint wielding chaps that were completely irrelevant to medieval europe<
>or<
>the mongol empire, the Middle Kingdom, Japan, Korea etc<
>answer<
>does not compute<

Ice
01-20-2006, 21:24
I wish this would have come out a year ago.. I'm going to college next fall and won't have much time to play computer games anymore. Ah.. to bad.

Monarch
01-20-2006, 21:25
i hate to be a grouch here, and maybe i'm jumping the gun but..........

whats all this stuff about the aztecs when there is no mention of the east????

>runs mental equation<
>choice<
>flint wielding chaps that were completely irrelevant to medieval europe<
>or<
>the mongol empire, the Middle Kingdom, Japan, Korea etc<
>answer<
>does not compute<

Doesn't look like there going East. Expansion pack perhaps?

West sounds very fun, Aztecs will most likely only be an emergent faction. Simply because if they were playable it'd take ages just for anybody to attack you, the Atlantic would be a kind of supermoat for you.

boastj
01-20-2006, 21:26
ye i took a long time to reply I got the answer from king noob though

cunobelinus
01-20-2006, 21:42
will this be running on a 32 bit system or 64 bit and is it ganna be along time till realease.

scotchedpommes
01-20-2006, 21:49
Charge assassins to wipe out enemy generals and witness their cold-hearted killing first-hand with assassination movie sequences.

Nice feature of Shogun being brought back. :2thumbsup:

Craterus
01-20-2006, 21:53
I think I will need a new computer, but I doubt I'll get one unless I pay for it myself. :cry:

Looks great though and although I've never really enjoyed the Medieval era, I think this will be the incentive for me to get into it and learn.

Moinllieon
01-20-2006, 21:54
Nice feature of Shogun being brought back. :2thumbsup:

Depends on how they handled it. More often than not, I just got tired of watching those movies and turned them all off. :dizzy2: :laugh4: Hopefully they did a better job of implementing those.

Grey_Fox
01-20-2006, 22:13
From an IGN interview (http://pc.ign.com/articles/682/682437p1.html):


IGNPC: What civilizations will be represented? What are some of the defining abilities and units of some of your favorite civilizations? Any cool historical battles to take advantage of these civilizations?

Bob Smith:There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.

We've included several factions that weren't included in the original Medieval; examples being Scotland, Venice and Portugal.

The final lineup of playable factions is still to be decided, however there will be a rich variety of factions to play, each with their own unique units and abilities that add a great deal of variation to the grand campaign experience.

As an example, Scotland start with the English breathing down their necks, so they will have to keep their heads down, bide their time, and seek allies. Scotland's army will be a mixed bag of solid lowland spearmen and fierce but unreliable highlanders. They'll have to work hard diplomatically at the start to avoid being overrun by the English, but if they can become the dominant power in Britain, they have a base to expand and seek wider domination.

Kraxis
01-20-2006, 22:15
Depends on how they handled it. More often than not, I just got tired of watching those movies and turned them all off. :dizzy2: :laugh4: Hopefully they did a better job of implementing those.
So did I, but when MTW came around I missed them terribly, and of course the throneroom. So I just hope they good... They add just a little bit of atmosphere and that can be important.

I'm not terribly afraid of the specs. MTW didn't demand that much more than STW since it was on the same engine. It is clear that this is a refined and suped-up version of the RTW engine, so I doubt it should be scary.

Winter 2006 (from Sega website)? Now here in Denmark that means early in the year, meaning NOW. So I wonder if we are going to see this in the stores in a few months?

From the pictures I have noticed at least three different helmets of the French footknights and five shields, all jumbled together. Thus it seems there is no predetermined skin but rather a mix of parts. That is good. And think about it... In another shot we can see two men of the same unit, one with an iron helmet and one with a leather helmet. I'm getting positive feelings towards equipment upgrades here... Could be they are now going to be visible?

Also I like that they will parry and be more alive. While RTW had something of an early version of this, it was not good, and in fact only made it look somewhat odd.

Btw, have anyone noticed that the Militia Sergeants have returned in one of the shots.:2thumbsup:

Screen of officer/general...
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/800/800327/img_3334170.html

Very intersting tidbit from the interview.

Priests can be used to spread your religion in their surrounding areas. However, they may turn heretic, in which case they fall under AI control and spread heresy instead, undermining the established religion. If you are deemed to have a problem with heresy in your lands, the Pope may send out an Inquisitor to deal with the situation. As well as reducing heresy, these characters may also denounce nearby characters, and have them tried and executed. Senior Catholic priests can become Cardinals, giving the player influence in the Papacy, and they can even get elected Pope, improving their original faction's standing with the Papal States.

GoreBag
01-20-2006, 22:29
They built them on site if I remember correctly.
But I guess they couldn't add such a feature so they added wheels for the sake of gameplay.

Trebuchets are made more efficient if wheels are added to them.

Vladimir
01-20-2006, 22:33
OMG OMG OMG!!! Fewer pictures of men let’s see the princesses! HOW would you control all that?!? The pause button was my friend before, now it’s going to be my lover. I hope they focus more on depth of play than pretty pictures even though they have a fairly young market. This…will be big. I’m kissing the next Brit I see regardless of gender.

Yes trebs may have had wheels. In fact they’re more efficient that way so the bucket drops straight down and not in an arc.

Dude, the Aztecs? If one of your guys sneezed will half their army die? The only reason they posed any challenge was because of their numbers and that was countered by disease and Cortez’s allies.

Big King Sanctaphrax
01-20-2006, 22:36
It's hard to describe what I just felt...like a sneeze, but so much...more...

*slopes off to change underwear*

Seriously, though, this is astounding news. These screenshots could keep a man warm at night. I am also as happy as a happy thing about the return of the STW assassination sequences.

doc_bean
01-20-2006, 22:51
I wish this would have come out a year ago.. I'm going to college next fall and won't have much time to play computer games anymore. Ah.. to bad.

You never has a much time as you do when you're in college !

Alx
01-20-2006, 22:59
I figure this time we should start asking CA for a worthy AI before the game ships rather than after, so here it goes:

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm55.showMessage?topicID=50.topic

I think this is something we can all strongly agree on, so show your support!

Nelson
01-20-2006, 23:05
I wonder along with the others just what sort of PC this will require. Rome already demands the very best hardware you can get if you expect to turn everything up to the max and even then is not satin smooth at all times. MTW2 must surely need still more digital oomph, for the weather alone if nothing else.

That said, it looks so good that even a less than optimal video setup is appealing. Ultimately, all hopes rest upon a good sound realistic battle engine.

Zain
01-20-2006, 23:26
This is exciting, I wonder how the map's gonna look now...

-ZainDustin

hellenes
01-20-2006, 23:27
I wonder along with the others just what sort of PC this will require. Rome already demands the very best hardware you can get if you expect to turn everything up to the max and even then is not satin smooth at all times. MTW2 must surely need still more digital oomph, for the weather alone if nothing else.

That said, it looks so good that even a less than optimal video setup is appealing. Ultimately, all hopes rest upon a good sound realistic battle engine.


Dear Nelson
RTW is unplayable even on monster 4800 Dual core 64bit dual 512mb 7800 SLI rigs if there are more than 8000 men...
I think that we wont see the 32780 men for at least next 5 years until we get 3ple and 4ple core CPUs...
On another note will this game be directX10 compartible? Or will it be programmed on the 64bit Vista? If so I wont be surprised to see 40000 men on $4k+ rigs...

Hellenes

scotchedpommes
01-20-2006, 23:40
From the pictures I have noticed at least three different helmets of the French footknights and five shields, all jumbled together. Thus it seems there is no predetermined skin but rather a mix of parts. That is good. And think about it... In another shot we can see two men of the same unit, one with an iron helmet and one with a leather helmet. I'm getting positive feelings towards equipment upgrades here... Could be they are now going to be visible?

Also I like that they will parry and be more alive. While RTW had something of an early version of this, it was not good, and in fact only made it look somewhat odd.

Am still inclined to be sceptical about this, because originally RTW was shown to
have a more advanced version.

You can see in these:

Example 1 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/cb42836e.jpg)

Example 2 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/403029e6.jpg)

Example 3 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/b069a48d.jpg)

Grifman
01-20-2006, 23:44
wow! looks fantastic but like frogbeastegg i too am cautiously hopefull. Everything looks great and the new features seem superb but im disappointed with their decision to return to previously visited ground. I was hoping for a Napoleonic totalwar game with fully functional fleet actions. nevermind. I just hope the AI is improved.

That would require a new engine. CA does two games with each engine, then they move to a new one.

TB666
01-20-2006, 23:45
Example 1 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/cb42836e.jpg)

Example 2 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/403029e6.jpg)

Example 3 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/b069a48d.jpg)

Those weren't suppose to be in-game shoots.
They were most likely gonna be used as a intro movie or something.
These however are suppose to be in-game.

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-20-2006, 23:45
Bob Smith:There will be 21 playable factions for custom battle and multiplayer. England, France, Scotland, Holy Roman Empire, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papal States, Sicily, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Byzantium, The Turks, Egypt, The Moors, The Mongols, The Tumurids, The Aztecs.


Anyone find the 'playable' part quite interesting? Maybe there will be some unplayable ones, perhaps a good 9 rounding it out to 30 (there's many I can think of - see the list). Really they should be:

The Incas
The Aragonese
The Burgundians
The Cumans
The Genoese (Really should be there in place of Milan)
The Swedes
The Serbians
A Crusader State
The Bohemians

But even then there's loads (Swiss, Bulgarians, Armenians, etc.). At least let us be able to add some factions CA, then all will be sweet.

Grifman
01-20-2006, 23:46
Think about it logically if trebuchets didn’t wheels how would they move them to the battle field

They built them on site. They would keep them dissassembled, pack them on animals, then reassmble them. The state of roads were so poor that there is no way they could move a wheeled object that big across the country.

Grifman
01-20-2006, 23:51
i hate to be a grouch here, and maybe i'm jumping the gun but..........

whats all this stuff about the aztecs when there is no mention of the east????

>runs mental equation<
>choice<
>flint wielding chaps that were completely irrelevant to medieval europe<
>or<
>the mongol empire, the Middle Kingdom, Japan, Korea etc<
>answer<
>does not compute<

Because Europe had interactions with the Americas and very little with the East at that time. The Spanish fought the Aztecs - did they ever fight the Chinese/Japanese during the same time? After all, you want an historically accurate game, don't you? :)

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-21-2006, 00:05
i hate to be a grouch here, and maybe i'm jumping the gun but..........

whats all this stuff about the aztecs when there is no mention of the east????

>runs mental equation<
>choice<
>flint wielding chaps that were completely irrelevant to medieval europe<
>or<
>the mongol empire, the Middle Kingdom, Japan, Korea etc<
>answer<
>does not compute<

Peregrine mate I'm not trying criticize you in any way but you might want to get rid of the jungle bunny remark - I know you didn't mean it in this way but where I'm from its a derogatory term for a black man and I'm worried people might percieve it as such and take offence. I like you mate and I don't want to see you get into any trouble so probably best to remove it or get a mod too.

ajaxfetish
01-21-2006, 00:21
Wow. :jawdrop:~:shock: :fainting: :listen: :dancing: :cheerleader: :elephant: ~:thumb:









That looks amazing. I've got zero complaints about going back to my favorite historical period except that I might not be playing for a couple years (gotta save up for a new machine).

hmmm . . . a few observations

--The differentiation of the units looks fantastic, especially the unique-looking officer, not to mention the beauty of the scenery and buildings and everything else.

--From the IGN interview: weapon and armour upgrades will be visible on your troops=supercool.

--The 21 playable factions (nothing to say there aren't other nonplayable ones as well!) are for the multiplayer system. They haven't finalized the factions for the campaign game. However, of those listed for multiplayer, they cover all playable factions in the original game (with the exception of the Aragonese who were only playable after the expansion), and they include some that were unplayable (Mongols and Pope), Some that were only available in expansions (Scotland, Portugal, and a 2nd Italian faction were in XL, not sure about Supermod and Medmod's extra factions), and the Tumurids and Aztecs, completely new as far as I know.

Possible gripes (of course the AI, diplomacy, etc. are much more important than either of these but I haven't heard enough yet to comment)

--In the trebuchet pictures, what's keeping the rocks in those slings as they're fired? Shouldn't the other end of the rope still be attached to the end of the throwing arm??

--Swordsmen performing spin moves to finish their enemies sounds a lot more like Hollywood than medieval combat. grrr.

Ajax

Kraxis
01-21-2006, 00:22
Am still inclined to be sceptical about this, because originally RTW was shown to
have a more advanced version.

You can see in these:

Example 1 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/cb42836e.jpg)

Example 2 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/403029e6.jpg)

Example 3 (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/ssneoperestroika/b069a48d.jpg)
As TB666 said...

The shots are from a promotional video, I believe an online version for when Rome had no real ingame movies. They quickly came and presented the game in the proper fashion with hardly a change. Those shots are not intended to give an impression of how the game would look.

There were no non-clone ingame shots of Rome...

Louis VI the Fat
01-21-2006, 00:28
:jumping:


*starts saving for a new ubersystem*

Big King Sanctaphrax
01-21-2006, 00:29
Did anyone else read the part in the IGN interview about setting up puppet popes?

I'm going to go on an excom frenzy, exorcise those papacy demons from MTW.

CrownOfSwords
01-21-2006, 00:32
Yes i remember that also... I was really bummed out that arrows didnt stick in the guys I thought that would be an awesome feature hopefully they will implement that into this game. These screenshots appear more to be taken from the game and not from a promotional video, I think they know their mistake lasttime which pissed alot of us off. I love the individual characters! What Ive always wanted out of this game. The blood thing is pretty cool to same with dirt, possibly in the rain they will get all muddy and it will be gruesome ha. It would nice to see weapons get bloodied also. I really hope that it is true also to be able to build castles, and upgrade them too hopefully. But i guess my dream still cant be completed unless some modder takes it onto himself once the game is released to be able to march my armies to china and do battle there. Im not sure about the whole America thing, the Aztecs were terrified of the Spaniards at first by never seeing horses and believing them gods, which may be the only real reason the Spaniards stood a chance in the battle. Also id like to see SHIP BATTLES!!! if we ever get them.. great though this has made my day. -CoS

Wikingus
01-21-2006, 00:46
You never has a much time as you do when you're in college !

I can vouch for that. :dizzy2:

scotchedpommes
01-21-2006, 00:48
As TB666 said...

The shots are from a promotional video, I believe an online version for when Rome had no real ingame movies. They quickly came and presented the game in the proper fashion with hardly a change. Those shots are not intended to give an impression of how the game would look.

There were no non-clone ingame shots of Rome...

[Took those shots from the video included on the VI disc. Even despite the
differences, it does appear similar to the game engine, enough so for me to
think it was an early engine, as opposed to simply being a rendered sequence.]

In any case, I doubt my current system will be capable of handling this new
game. Have enough problems running RTW as it is.

Divinus Arma
01-21-2006, 00:50
Okay. I am excited, but I shall be a neighsayer. neigh!neigh!

I am a little dissapointed that CA decided to go with MTW2 rather than a NTW...

That said, I think it was correctly pointed out here that CA may likely choose to do the NTW with the next "revolution" engine rather than the "evolution" engine. To that Orgah: Well articulated and argued my friend. I only hope that you are correct.


Now for my self-important analysis:

I see some blood on that armor. Is this an effect that will occur in battle? If so, we are seeing a major departure from the previous "bloodless" battle policy of the past. It is my impression that CA and Sega are testing the waters. They seem to desire a more graphically engaging product through accurate bloodshed, but desire a measure of consumer and critical response before moving on to decapitations, disembowelments, and limb-launching. I fully support this decision and I hope that they continue in this direction in an accurate way; a portrayal that does not shirk from the brutality, but does not show anime-style 40ft high blood fountains either. Press on CA, you will not be dissapointed in reviews or profits.


The models appear to be either (a) random generation in-unit based on extremities and attachments, or (b) pre-determined whole skins. Either of these choices is very intriguing.

I'm concerned about the Americas. Azteks? Incas? Within the time period covered? I'm not at all pleased about this if it is merely an extension of the campaign map. I know there are some who are enthusiastic, but I am not.


CA and SEGA: PLEASE invest the resources into a superior soundtrack. Culture specific with epic and diverse music. I for one do not want to hear the same song every 20 minutes. Each culture, or faction for that matter, should have 3 or more hours of unique music. I beg you. For me personally, I do not view the "evolution" product as worth purchasing a new computer over unless the music score is as award winningly beautiful as your graphics.

From Totalwar.com: (http://www.totalwar.com/community/medieval2.htm)Individual units...
...string together deadly combo attacks and finishing moves... Uhm... I am a little concerned with this one too. I shall wait and see before making a judgment. It could be realistic and engaging... or it could be Sonic the uber-knight-hog. I do admit concern.

Diplomacy. Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. I'm not seeing too much yet. Hopefully a generous CA staffer will be kind enough to offer some talking points on changes. To say that the community has been dissapointed with the diplomatic engine so far is somewhat of an understatement. But I have hope.


So, Orgahs. What is on your wish list here?

Edit: When were stirrups invented? I thought they had stirrups in Europe by now?

Ice
01-21-2006, 00:51
http://www.sega-europe.com/en/Game/262.htm

The release date says winter 2006... is that typo?

TB666
01-21-2006, 00:53
http://www.sega-europe.com/en/Game/262.htm

The release date says winter 2006... is that typo?
Doubt it.
It seems CA have been working on this for quite some time.

Ice
01-21-2006, 00:58
Doubt it.
It seems CA have been working on this for quite some time.

*dances*. Yes! I can still play it before going off to college. :2thumbsup:

TB666
01-21-2006, 00:59
But I do hope the date isn't set on stone.

doc_bean
01-21-2006, 01:14
*dances*. Yes! I can still play it before going off to college. :2thumbsup:

I assume they mean Christmas season 2006 :oops:

Taffy_is_a_Taff
01-21-2006, 01:16
I am already concerned about the historical accuracy of this game.

11th century 18thcentury Highland clansmen, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds suspect to me.

I was REALLy hoping for Scotland in this.
I sadly doubt that they'll portray it well.
They are going to do a Braveheart aren't they?

I hope for one of the stronger Welsh kingdoms too, but I doubt they'll do that.

boastj
01-21-2006, 01:37
i just read this
"Fire dead animals into besieged towns to spread disease." well yey plague

quick question haw do you quote from external pages

Ice
01-21-2006, 01:39
I assume they mean Christmas season 2006 :oops:


GAH NO! That isn't cool Doc Bean...Let me live in my illusion :no:

King Noob the Stupid
01-21-2006, 01:49
If so, I hope that they won't do it for Vista, I don't really think Vista will be available in Europe or anywhere else by then ;)...
PS:Will the game be released everywhere at the same time or do they need extra time for translated versions?

RabidGibbon
01-21-2006, 02:12
I was a bit disappointed by Rome, but I'm definetly going to run out and get this on release day, because I'm, well you know, a chump.


Originally posted by Totalwar.com

Global Crusades
Win favour with the Pope and round up your armies for global crusades at his request. Players can even prompt the Pope to commission crusades as Catholicism wages a spiritual battle against the Muslim, Orthodox and Pagan religions.

I wonder what they mean by "Global Crusades"? What would be cool is when the pope calls for one everybody picks what troops (if any) they want to send and all they all auto move to converge en route to the objective. You could command just your contingent (with the foriegners being AI allies) or the General with the best rating could get command over the whole lot. That would be pretty nifty.

Probably not going to happen like that, but I do wonder how the crusades will be implemented.

Anyone heard any mention of civil wars yet?

Crazed Rabbit
01-21-2006, 02:38
Screen of officer/general...
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/800/80...g_3334170.html

If I was commanding a bunch of metal-clad, 12 foot lance weilding knights, I'd want a beret and a pointy stick too.


I wonder what they mean by "Global Crusades"?

Anyone want to convert the Aztecs? It would be nice if the possibility of crusades reflected their past (ingame) successes.

What I'd really like to see is real cool sieges. Not just big city sieges, but sieges with rooms inside of the walls, with traps in the gatehouse, murder holes, wooden planking on the walls of keeps, catapults on towers, fire arrows, lime, and a system where the most used way into the castle is the gatehouse and siege towers for a runner up, and not catapults that destroy a wall in (relatively) the blink of an eye.

Crazed Rabbit

Martok
01-21-2006, 03:03
Did anyone else read the part in the IGN interview about setting up puppet popes?

I'm going to go on an excom frenzy, exorcise those papacy demons from MTW.

Oh yeah, baby! I'm going to have His Holiness dancing to whichever way I pull his strings! ~D



*dances*. Yes! I can still play it before going off to college. :2thumbsup:


I know I saw on at least one of the other gamesites that it won't be released til 4th Quarter of 2006, which would be consistent with CA's release schedule from the last 6 years. Sorry, Ghost, but it looks like Medieval II probably isn't going to be released until just in time for mid-terms.... :no:

Ice
01-21-2006, 03:10
Oh yeah, baby! I'm going to have His Holiness dancing to whichever way I pull his strings! ~D





I know I saw on at least one of the other gamesites that it won't be released til 4th Quarter of 2006, which would be consistent with CA's release schedule from the last 6 years. Sorry, Ghost, but it looks like Medieval II probably isn't going to be released until just in time for mid-terms.... :no:

I'm mad because I'm not taking my PC to Unversity. I'm getting a laptop. This isn't cool.. at all. :wall:

Kraxis
01-21-2006, 03:11
If I was commanding a bunch of metal-clad, 12 foot lance weilding knights, I'd want a beret and a pointy stick too.
I think the trouble is that, that was how the nobles of the late 1400s to early 1500s dressed...

The Global Crusades certainly sound like they are a race, rather than a leech (like in MTW). And that is going to be interesting, I'm not going to say it will be better, but certainly interesting.

Beirut
01-21-2006, 03:24
Give me Agincourt in hi-res and I will give you all my money.

:shakehands: "Deal!"

Crazed Rabbit
01-21-2006, 05:08
I think the trouble is that, that was how the nobles of the late 1400s to early 1500s dressed...

The dress I'm not that surprised at, but I still don't know about the captain's weapon. Wouldn't they rather have a sword?

Crazed Rabbit

Divinus Arma
01-21-2006, 05:34
The dress I'm not that surprised at, but I still don't know about the captain's weapon. Wouldn't they rather have a sword?

Crazed Rabbit


I found the little bitsy spear to be odd too. :inquisitive:

I'm sure that will change.... (I hope)

Doug-Thompson
01-21-2006, 06:41
Give me Agincourt in hi-res and I will give you all my money.

:shakehands: "Deal!"


I think that's what CA is counting on. :laugh4:

I'm pleased. This is a good move, both for game development and business. It shows Sega is truly committed to the franchise.

Mooks
01-21-2006, 06:42
Im not a history fanatic :book: ...Well maybe I am. The spanish conquered the aztec's with 300..I repeat THREE HUNDRED, theres noway this game (If it includes aztec-spanish) isnt going to be way off historically accurate, the spanish slaughtered the aztics, and the aztecs thought there gold was mere fancy decoration. So they would have to invent some system of coin for the aztec natives.

Quietus
01-21-2006, 07:02
Great graphics!

But will battles last more than 5 minutes?


Advanced Combat System
Zoom to the frontline and witness the fast, visceral melee combat enhanced by new spectacular battlefield animations. Troops block and parry attack moves and string together deadly combo attacks and finishing moves before scanning the battlefield for their next kill.

Ravenloch
01-21-2006, 07:10
All they need now is authenic smells!!!!:dizzy2:
Will their be ground troops stepping in Horse crap if following behing the Cav units..?:laugh4:

caspian
01-21-2006, 07:22
I hope they add a blood option even if its hidden from the menu. If we're talking about historical accuracy, we have to see the mass of dead over the battlefield lying in pools of blood. :knight:

Aelwyn
01-21-2006, 07:38
i haven't seen any new features added. from the sounds of the features listed, its the same stuff in previous titles.

i care little for additions. if they can make the battle gameplay good, and ACTUALLY PUT SOME FOCUS ON MULTIPLAYER....

i'd be more than happy.

Divinus Arma
01-21-2006, 07:39
I hope they add a blood option even if its hidden from the menu. If we're talking about historical accuracy, we have to see the mass of dead over the battlefield lying in pools of blood. :knight:


I see some blood on that armor. Is this an effect that will occur in battle? If so, we are seeing a major departure from the previous "bloodless" battle policy of the past. It is my impression that CA and Sega are testing the waters. They seem to desire a more graphically engaging product through accurate bloodshed, but desire a measure of consumer and critical response before moving on to decapitations, disembowelments, and limb-launching. I fully support this decision and I hope that they continue in this direction in an accurate way; a portrayal that does not shirk from the brutality, but does not show anime-style 40ft high blood fountains either. Press on CA, you will not be dissapointed in reviews or profits.

heh.

Ilsamir Lord
01-21-2006, 08:32
Does anyone have any speculation as to the system requirements? I suppose if it is well optimised it should be fine on my system.

Samurai Waki
01-21-2006, 08:39
I watched Kingdom of Heaven just to get into the mood, man... now it's gonna be hard to wait so long. Granted, Kingdom of Heaven isn't historically realistic but it does have decent atmosphere and I absolutely love the sound track.

Rodion Romanovich
01-21-2006, 10:48
Looks very beautiful graphically, but it seems like only a few new gameplay elements added... I'm curious about how the map looks in terms of scaling - will they shrink it in order to include the Americas or will they keep it detailed? I'd also be happy if they had increased the number of factions to perhaps 50 instead, to reflect the changes in the period. Egypt sounds a little cheesy compared to Abbassids, Mamluks and Fatimids, for example, there should IMO be differences over the periods. Finally I'm curious about how/if they're going to fix the most important issue that detracted from gameplay - removing the numerous small skirmish battles with brigands and similar and make the AI factions capable of regrouping and assembling larger armies for the battles instead of sending their units a few at the time. It's also important that they keep battle speed down so that the AI doesn't get completely crippled in the battles, so that better strategy on the map is necessary to compensate for larger losses in the battles. I'd also like to know how they're handling recruitment - if they're trying to limit blitz strategy by making it difficult to recruit in newly conquered territories right away.

Martok
01-21-2006, 11:17
Great graphics!

But will battles last more than 5 minutes?


An excellent question--one that I brought up in the official forum as well. After AI and diplomacy, the pacing of battles is probably my biggest concern. I admit I could do without the 8-hour battles we sometimes fight in Medieval 1 (I suppose I might as well get used to calling it that now), but Rome's battles were over so quickly it was absurd! There has got to be a happy medium somewhere....

Duke Dick
01-21-2006, 11:20
Does anyone have any speculation as to the system requirements? I suppose if it is well optimised it should be fine on my system.

IMHO; looking at the RTW minimum system specs and comparing them to the recomended specs, you can see that there is large space for customisation of your own system.


MINIMUM SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS:

* English version of Microsoft® Windows® 98SE/ME/2000/XP
* Pentium® III 1.0GHz (1000MHz) or Athlon™ 1.0GHz (1000MHz) processor or higher
* 256MB RAM
* 8x Speed CD-ROM drive (1200KB/sec sustained transfer rate) and latest drivers
* 2.9GB of uncompressed free hard disk space (plus 500MB for Windows® swap file)
* 100% DirectX® 9.0b compatible 16-bit sound card and latest drivers
* 100% Windows® 98SE/ME/2000/XP compatible mouse, keyboard and latest drivers
* DirectX® 9.0b (included)
* 3D hardware Accelerator Card Required - 100% DirectX® 9.0b compatible 64MB Hardware Accelerated video card and the latest drivers*.
* ATI® Radeon 7200
* ATI® Radeon 8500
* ATI® Radeon 9000
* ATI® Radeon 9500
* ATI® Radeon 9600
* ATI® Radeon 9700
* ATI® Radeon 9800
* All Nvidia® GeForce 2 and higher

As you can see, this is very low end, even for a system like Rome. The M2:TW system looks to have boosted many of the graphical features included in Rome, so it is only natural that system specs will have to be increased.

I speculate that the M2:TW minimum specs will probaly only differ from the RTW specs in slight ways, such as a minimum of a Pentium 4/Athlon 2GHZ+ processor, 512MB RAM and direct x 9.0c compatible cards.

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 11:24
Its better to call it egypt than the several names it went through, they'll have to deal with 4 faction changes for egypt alone, which means alot of work.

I do hope the muslims get some decent units earlier on and not cheese units like muwahid and nubian spearmen that were almost the same bar some small statistic changes.

Also i do hope they get better units as they advance, sure they were in decline but just to keep up with the europeans, a late european army is far easier to handle than a muslim one where you have to micromanage.

Also Aztecs :dizzy2: thats way to ambitious, might as well include mayans and incans just for the hell of it, i do hope the american nations have their unique buildings and not placeholders ~;p

Also decent units, historical accuracy be damned, but in reality the aztecs didn't pose that much of a threat to the spanish, i do hope in-game they make more competent units just for the challenge of conquering the americas.

DukeofSerbia
01-21-2006, 11:45
Anyone find the 'playable' part quite interesting? Maybe there will be some unplayable ones, perhaps a good 9 rounding it out to 30 (there's many I can think of - see the list). Really they should be:

The Incas
The Aragonese
The Burgundians
The Cumans
The Genoese (Really should be there in place of Milan)
The Swedes
The Serbians
A Crusader State
The Bohemians

But even then there's loads (Swiss, Bulgarians, Armenians, etc.). At least let us be able to add some factions CA, then all will be sweet.

Serbs - not Serbians.:oops:

JR-
01-21-2006, 12:05
Peregrine mate I'm not trying criticize you in any way but you might want to get rid of the jungle bunny remark - I know you didn't mean it in this way but where I'm from its a derogatory term for a black man and I'm worried people might percieve it as such and take offence. I like you mate and I don't want to see you get into any trouble so probably best to remove it or get a mod too.
looks like its been edited.

no idea the phrase already existed as a slur, i made it up on the spot.

no offence intended, except to a dead civilisation that has no relevance to a medieval game. :)

Zatoichi
01-21-2006, 12:05
(Originally posted in the RTW forum before I realised there was this stickied thread in the Entrance Hall which was a better place for it!)

In the words of Brave Sir Robin:

'I've soiled my armour!'

Wow - I know graphics are just eye candy, and the important stuff is how it actually plays, but even so - my eyeballs are in a sugar-induced diabetic coma!

The whole 'discovering America' thing is pretty interesting, as is the units being made up of individually dressed and equipped soldiers that will see the benefits of armour/weapon upgrades. Getting one of your cardinals elected Pope also sounds like a good twist on the whole 'kill the Pope' scenario from the original.

I wonder how easy this will be to mod? I mean, does this mean to mod one unit skin you'll actually have to mod about 10? It seems they've really upped the details and decreased the over-abundance of in-your-face faction colours. I'm all for the more naturalistic colours you see in the many excellent RTW mods, so this is a good thing.

I'm actually pretty darn excited about the whole thing. Not looking forward to explaining to the wife about exactly why I need a new PC though... The game only costs &#163;34.99, but I'll end up paying about &#163;1100 to play it with all the bells and whistles set to max. This after having already upgraded in December 2003 on the strength that RTW would be released in early 2004 (then discovering it was getting delayed until Autumn - gah!).

TW - keeping Dell in business!

Heck - I'm not complaining though - bring it on!

'I've done it again!'

The Blind King of Bohemia
01-21-2006, 12:10
looks like its been edited.

no idea the phrase already existed as a slur, i made it up on the spot.

no offence intended, except to a dead civilisation that has no relevance to a medieval game. :)

Maybe, but it'll be funny fighting them nonetheless. Again, hope there's no hard feelings about that.

And sorry about the Serbians thing, I always thought it was a real term.:dizzy2:

TB666
01-21-2006, 12:31
I speculate that the M2:TW minimum specs will probaly only differ from the RTW specs in slight ways, such as a minimum of a Pentium 4/Athlon 2GHZ+ processor, 512MB RAM and direct x 9.0c compatible cards.
That is no slightly increase.
That's a pretty big one.
A slight increase would be Pentium 4/Athlon 1.2GHZ+ processor

Lord Armbandit
01-21-2006, 13:37
Im not a history fanatic :book: ...Well maybe I am. The spanish conquered the aztec's with 300..I repeat THREE HUNDRED, theres noway this game (If it includes aztec-spanish) isnt going to be way off historically accurate, the spanish slaughtered the aztics, and the aztecs thought there gold was mere fancy decoration. So they would have to invent some system of coin for the aztec natives.


Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will) but it really wasn't that simple. Cortes had to use a fair old bit of diplomacy to survive in the americas, ally with the tlaxcallan and other tribes (who were the aztecs enemies) and was repulsed on his first jaunt to Tenochtitlan. It really wasn't tens of thousands of aztecs against just three hundred spaniards. That would be silly in the real world not just a game.

I must say I am somewhat concerned about the 'gimmick' factor in this though. Some representation of the new world effect is pretty important, given the time period we're looking at. However, South/Central america is such a different proposition to Europe, and the Atlantic is so big, (compared with the med/north sea) that it is going to take some pretty creative ideas from CA to make it work well. What might have been a better idea would be the possibility of setting up 'trade' routes to the americas once these were discovered, and having to set aside ships to do the transporting of captured gold, silver and gems. Rival factions could then send ships to disrupt your gold fleets as privateers.

In this way, we don't need an American land mass. It just seems a little simplistic from what we've heard so far (Aztecs mentioned but no other powers in the Americas?), only south and central america?

What is the point in having just south and central america? Because historically they were the land masses exploited by then?

How much historical accuracy do we want (especially by the end of the game era?)

Why not the possibility of further african/eastern exploration? If we have additional land mass in the campaign, these make just as much sense - you could choose where you go to explore.

Monarch
01-21-2006, 13:38
Maybe, but it'll be funny fighting them nonetheless. Again, hope there's no hard feelings about that.

I think in order to make the Aztecs worthwhile, and make sure there is some balance that the Aztecs will raise huge armies, mostly fodder but they'll just try to overwhelm the enemy.

If not..then you cant make their units actually better, surely thats too ahistorical...so they'd end up being pointless.

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 13:47
Ok i brainstormed a bit and i need some CA employees to answer these questions:

1.Why no norwegians? the only scandinavian country is denmark ~;p

2.Why the Americas, how about the far east too just for the heck of it? (i.e China, and probably japan, you all know Shogun is still in ours hearts)

3.If the Timurids are in, that means you'd have to map out persia, might sound interesting, but before them were the Ilkhanids and Khawarizmians, i wonder how they will work it out if they cut 2 important factions.

4.Also the entire "global" crusade thing is a bit gimmicky, what will CA plan for orthodox factions? (muslims will probably get jihad again, and a global jihad[?])

also about the aztecs, i do believe their units are competent enough against the spanish, but CA need to think this our very well and make the aztecs fun.

Lord Armbandit
01-21-2006, 13:47
Oh yeah, also, I am still VERY excited about this game - Lets hope AI and diplomacy are fixed (sounds like a lot of thought has gone into diplomacy at least, but if AI is still dumb on campaign map it will be pointless)

But just look at those screenshots. I really will need a new computer now.

Rodion Romanovich
01-21-2006, 14:14
An excellent question--one that I brought up in the official forum as well. After AI, the pacing of battles is probably my biggest concern. I admit I could do without the 8-hour battles we sometimes fight in Medieval 1 (I suppose I might as well get used to calling it that now), but Rome's battles were over so quickly it was absurd! There has got to be a happy medium somewhere....

The main problem with MTW1 battles was the endless hordes of reinforcements. Remove that (replacing it with the excellent reinforcement mechanics of RTW) and you get battles with perfect mechanics but without the unrealistic and boring reinforcement hordes.

Wardo
01-21-2006, 14:23
As long as this game is not WORSE than RTW, as long as it is as much fun (mods), it's good.

I'm not happy with the fact they are dedicating their time to the Aztecs though, certainly they have much better things to do, so we can only hope the whole Aztec thing is fun enough or provides an interesting modding possibility.

TB666
01-21-2006, 14:26
1.Why no norwegians? the only scandinavian country is denmark ~;p
Because the danes were the strongest faction in scandinavia during medieval times.
I would love nothing more then to see Sweden there but if they have to pick one then even I would say danes.

KukriKhan
01-21-2006, 15:02
...also about the aztecs, i do believe their units are competent enough against the spanish, but CA need to think this our very well and make the aztecs fun.

I'm thinking: since they're having video cut-scenes for assassinations, they may also use such a trick to segue to the americas as they were comprehended at the time. In other words, not a modern-type map, but a much earlier, incomplete representation of what the euro explorers thought/hoped was eastern India. Such a landmass could be placed much closer to the european continent on the campaign map.

And of course, nothing says that it MUST be the Spanish battling the Aztecs, in-game. Just as Egyptian camels never wandered the streets of London in actual history, they can and do in our Medi-I games. So it could be seen that Polish Retainers, or the Golden Hoarde might encounter the americans in Medi-II.

Great fun, I think. Looking forward to it.

Paul Peru
01-21-2006, 15:22
Dropping of jaws, soiling of pants etc...
This looks awesome. Hoping for decent AI and heaps of moddability.
The vegetation looks a bit better, though it does not feature too prominently in the screenies.

As for Scandinavia, the power balance could have swung different ways from the early stages on, but historically Denmark would be the best choice as they ended up being top dog most of the time, and they had the best odds as well. Norway was almost always weakened by civil wars, seceding earls and turbulent priests. Sweden hardly existed as such in 1080. (it teleported in a bit later).

Crian
01-21-2006, 15:53
Wow ... but then I remember how I felt after hearing about RTW... :inquisitive:

Apparently nowadays, improving games graphically is really the "easier" thing to do. You can almost always expect new games to have vastly improved graphics so I'm hardly moved. :no:

I really really hope they do something with the AI!!!!! I NEVER had a truly epic or interesting battle that lasted more than 30 minutes in RTW. NEVER in RTW did I fight a campaign battle against more than 1 faction, nor did I ever fight alongside an ally. I guess the new campaign map complicates this from happening but it NEVER happened to me at all!!! I hardly ever bothered with diplomacy in RTW because in the long run, you'll almost always win anyway!

Don't get me wrong, I'm a slave of CA and I will DEFINITELY buy this when it comes out (or at least until I get a PC that can run it, I'm currently forced to play RTW at around mid-settings). I just wish I don't start browsing online for mods or patches after a couple of weeks. :sweatdrop:

Hambut_bulge
01-21-2006, 16:11
I'm thinking: since they're having video cut-scenes for assassinations, they may also use such a trick to segue to the americas as they were comprehended at the time. In other words, not a modern-type map, but a much earlier, incomplete representation of what the euro explorers thought/hoped was eastern India. Such a landmass could be placed much closer to the european continent on the campaign map.

Possibly, but more likely I think will be a separate map for Central America. You couldn't really place the New World closer to Europe, because everyone knew it had taken Columbus six months (or whatever it was to get there). Everyone knew the distances involved were vast. In order to travel to the New World in MTW2 I think it'll be a case of moving a fleet 'off' the western edge of the world, and then on the next turn it'll arrive somewhere in the Caribbean. And there'll be a button to switch between the two maps.

Been having a little think about about what I'd like to see in MTW2 and coming top of the list at the moment (aside from an improved AI of course) would be an improved inheritance system. Its hugely annoying in MTW to lose a game because your King failed in his royal duties. I'd like to see it so that a nephew, or second-cousin, or even (gasp!) a daughter could take the throne. Obviously there should be problems (especially in the latter case) of disloyalty etc. But the historical precedents are there.

And also, it always struck me as bit odd in MTW that you could have Catholic factions forming alliances with Muslim ones. I mean the Pope's just said "go and kill the evil heretics", so surely any Catholic faction that formed such an alliance really should be getting some severe diplomatic penalties?

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 16:16
I'm thinking: since they're having video cut-scenes for assassinations, they may also use such a trick to segue to the americas as they were comprehended at the time. In other words, not a modern-type map, but a much earlier, incomplete representation of what the euro explorers thought/hoped was eastern India. Such a landmass could be placed much closer to the european continent on the campaign map.

And of course, nothing says that it MUST be the Spanish battling the Aztecs, in-game. Just as Egyptian camels never wandered the streets of London in actual history, they can and do in our Medi-I games. So it could be seen that Polish Retainers, or the Golden Hoarde might encounter the americans in Medi-II.

Great fun, I think. Looking forward to it.

Good points.

There is one thing irking me about the game...

the aztecs didn't have cavalry.. how will they balance it out for MP? ~;p

The_Doctor
01-21-2006, 16:28
Build through six levels of settlement ranging from humble villages to vast cities and wooden forts to mighty stone fortress. Develop your faction as a feudal aristocracy using you castles to keep the peasants in check whilst conquering your enemies with your powerful armies. Or build cities to develop a wealthy urban society, and battle your foes with diplomacy, bribery, assassination and armies of mercenaries.

This interests me. It sounds like towns and castles are seperate things. If you look at the screenshots the towns don't contain keeps.

Maybe you train knights from castles and there is a limit to the number you can have.

General_Sun
01-21-2006, 16:50
Trebuchets are made more efficient if wheels are added to them.

If I remember this correctly, you CAN'T have trebuchets on wheels. Trebuchets need very firm and stable surface to fire or else it wouldn't work. That's why you can't have catapults or trebuchets on castle towers. The castle towers usually are not a stable enough foundation, and would shake apart if a trebuchet fired. :P

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 16:56
Because the danes were the strongest faction in scandinavia during medieval times.
I would love nothing more then to see Sweden there but if they have to pick one then even I would say danes.

Norway had a fair bit of land between 1220-1319 i beleive. Also weren't the Rus the swedish vikings? (they made kiev and novgorod?)

Hambut_bulge
01-21-2006, 17:08
If I remember this correctly, you CAN'T have trebuchets on wheels. Trebuchets need very firm and stable surface to fire or else it wouldn't work. That's why you can't have catapults or trebuchets on castle towers. The castle towers usually are not a stable enough foundation, and would shake apart if a trebuchet fired. :P

There are medieval illustrations of both types:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/ht/ht01.html
http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/ht/ht02.html

As was mentioned earlier its thought (and has been demonstrated on medieval weapons programmes) that the wheels allowed the trebuchet to move back when firing. This causes the weight to drop in more vertical line, rather than proscribing an arc (which it would do if wheelless), and that this generates greater force.

Reenk Roink
01-21-2006, 17:21
The screens look promising, and I know some people are wary claiming "touchups" and all, and while this is true to a certain point, the initial screens for Rome were not that much better than the graphics in the game...

I am torn when it comes to the theme of the game, however...

Though I do like the Medieval era, I was actually hoping for something fresh, or if they had to make a "sequel," then I would prefer to see one of Rome (perhaps a bit earlier too, focusing on the diadochoi kingdoms).

I am optimistic that the AI, diplomacy, and other factors will be improved, and that new features will add much to the game. I'm concerned about the addition of an Aztec faction, because if they are added, then I would expect the Americas to be well represented too, which I doubt due to the 21 factions...

Still, this is just early speculation, and more importantly, I need to grab a 7800 GTX :sweatdrop:.

Alx
01-21-2006, 17:27
Come on guys, Martok is the only one from here backing me up in the AI thread :help:

Maybe we can at least get CA to allow AI modding, if that's even possible? Then the community could work on it, instead of wasting crazy man-hours redoing all the skins out of boredom.

Ludens
01-21-2006, 17:33
Maybe we can at least get CA to allow AI modding, if that's even possible? Then the community could work on it, instead of wasting crazy man-hours redoing all the skins out of boredom.
The A.I. is such an integral part of the game that making it moddable it is almost impossible. Mind you, I am not saying that it can't be done, but that it will be very, very hard. However, it is possible to make A.I. preferences moddable, and CA has done this in M:TW and R:TW.

Doug-Thompson
01-21-2006, 17:42
The A.I. is such an integral part of the game that making it moddable it is almost impossible. Mind you, I am not saying that it can't be done, but that it will be very, very hard. However, it is possible to make A.I. preferences moddable, and CA has done this in M:TW and R:TW.


That's it. That's what I want out of M:TW II than anything else.

I want a better array of options that "arcade" and "something else."

What soured the fan base on R:TW more than anything else? Unit speeds. People used to controlling their battles were aghast at the run-around. It looked goofy.

For me, the biggest laughable problem was the "flying horses" stuff.

You can drop arcade battles, as far as I'm concerned. I'd like options between "RTW" style play, which is obviously designed to be quick, and "traditional," or "paced" or "MTW-style" or (some would say) "slow and boring" play.

I'd like things like the spear bonus back, too.

DukeofSerbia
01-21-2006, 17:46
What about titles? King of Aragon, King of Serbia, Duke of Bavaria, Voivode of Wallachia, Count of Flandern, Censor of Genoa etc.

I want them back!

TB666
01-21-2006, 17:51
There are medieval illustrations of both types:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/ht/ht01.html
http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/ht/ht02.html

As was mentioned earlier its thought (and has been demonstrated on medieval weapons programmes) that the wheels allowed the trebuchet to move back when firing. This causes the weight to drop in more vertical line, rather than proscribing an arc (which it would do if wheelless), and that this generates greater force.
I think you have misunderstood.
We aren't talking about the wheels that are on the drawnings.
We are talking about wheels under the trebuchet so that they can push it around the battlefield.
All Trebuchet versions I have seen don't have those wheels.

General_Sun
01-21-2006, 18:13
Yes agreed. Hand cranks are not the same thing as vehicular wheels.

BTW, Hambut_bulge, those are very interesting pictures, thanks for showing them.

x-dANGEr
01-21-2006, 18:24
Looks very beautiful graphically, but it seems like only a few new gameplay elements added... I'm curious about how the map looks in terms of scaling - will they shrink it in order to include the Americas or will they keep it detailed? I'd also be happy if they had increased the number of factions to perhaps 50 instead, to reflect the changes in the period. Egypt sounds a little cheesy compared to Abbassids, Mamluks and Fatimids, for example, there should IMO be differences over the periods. Finally I'm curious about how/if they're going to fix the most important issue that detracted from gameplay - removing the numerous small skirmish battles with brigands and similar and make the AI factions capable of regrouping and assembling larger armies for the battles instead of sending their units a few at the time. It's also important that they keep battle speed down so that the AI doesn't get completely crippled in the battles, so that better strategy on the map is necessary to compensate for larger losses in the battles. I'd also like to know how they're handling recruitment - if they're trying to limit blitz strategy by making it difficult to recruit in newly conquered territories right away.
I agree about Egypt thingy, I don't remember if the Omaweyins is in that era too or earlier (But they were before the Abbassids)..


I do hope the muslims get some decent units earlier on and not cheese units like muwahid and nubian spearmen that were almost the same bar some small statistic changes.

Also i do hope they get better units as they advance, sure they were in decline but just to keep up with the europeans, a late european army is far easier to handle than a muslim one where you have to micromanage.

I really don't know why they are always downgraded. After all, they were the only ones to repell the danger of the mogols and all the crusades.. I think they should have some nice troops with the exeptional option of 'VERYYYY' excellent morale. As muslims when in a battle, won't fear either death or life. For if it is death, paradise is the nest stop and if it's life, glory is the next stop.

Hambut_bulge
01-21-2006, 18:34
I think you have misunderstood.
We aren't talking about the wheels that are on the drawnings.
We are talking about wheels under the trebuchet so that they can push it around the battlefield.
All Trebuchet versions I have seen don't have those wheels.

Not at all. In my haste, I merely should have linked to page 3: ~;)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/ht/ht03.html

The drawing for the Siege of Jerusalem has what appear to be wheels on the base, although the accompanying text does admit that this is a rarity in medieval drawings.

Also I found a link to a site (http://authors.history-forum.com/liang_jieming/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english13122005.html)
about Chinese war engines (apparently the Chinese invented the trebuchets) and near the bottom of this are a couple of illustrations of what may be wheeled trebuchets. Sadly, as with many drawings of the period, there is a great deal of room for interpretation.

Also came across these pages (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/trebuchet/wheels.html and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/trebuchet/builds.html). This TV programme was shown on BBC2 a few years ago and provides a practical demonstration of how a trebuchet with wheel could actually work.

The_Doctor
01-21-2006, 18:47
OMG, its just wheels. There only there so you can move the thing around.

Hambut_bulge
01-21-2006, 18:50
OMG, its just wheels. There only there so you can move the thing around.

Well yes, but what else are we going to do until winter 2006? :laugh4:

TB666
01-21-2006, 18:53
OMG, its just wheels. There only there so you can move the thing around.
Hey I have no problem with the wheels. :2thumbsup:
As I said before they probably added them for gameplay.


@Hambut: Thanks for the links, very interesting read :book:

ChaosLord
01-21-2006, 18:53
This is a pretty dissapointing announcement. Better graphics, a few new gameplay elements and a rehashed game. I wonder which they'll remake after MTW, STW or RTW. Probably STW, if we're lucky Sega will go under before anything as lame as RTW2 can be made.

The_Doctor
01-21-2006, 18:59
Well yes, but what else are we going to do until winter 2006?

It is winter 2006.

Templar Knight
01-21-2006, 19:00
'Deep thinking strategy campaign' - sounds promising, I just hope that there is more diplomacy and diplomatic intrigue, these after all went hand in hand with war.

Lord Armbandit
01-21-2006, 19:18
Thought I'd put my nose into the Trebuchet debate.

The wheels on the base are there to allow the trebuchet to fire (much)further and also allow it to deal with the strains of firing with less stress on the structure. It allows the weight to drop almost vertically, as it moves through the firing motion.

I saw this on TV, so it must be true.

Kraxis
01-21-2006, 19:55
I really don't know why they are always downgraded. After all, they were the only ones to repell the danger of the mogols and all the crusades.. I think they should have some nice troops with the exeptional option of 'VERYYYY' excellent morale. As muslims when in a battle, won't fear either death or life. For if it is death, paradise is the nest stop and if it's life, glory is the next stop.
Don't be silly!
We can all be rational about fear when we are outside it. Then we can feel as if we don't fear anything, but fear does take a man, even a determined religious fanatic. And it wasn't as if they were religious to the point fanaticism, some were but most weren't. It has even been argued that the christians were worse in that department in that age, that they were more likely hold some sort of religious fervour in battle, and disregard their own lives.

Since practically all battles prior to the modern age have been decided due to morale, the Muslims would never have been halted if their morale was consistently better than their enemies.
Also how do you explain routing muslim armies? Or tiny crusader armies beating much larger muslim ones in the first years of the crusades?

Now I agree that in MTW the Muslims were terribly underpowered when the game moved into High. And that was just not right. THere are reasons as to how the Almohads/successors managed to stay in Grenada for so long after losing their heartland there. Part of the exlaination is that they were not stagnant.

But from making the technology better to making the Muslim armies unbreakable is a serious misunderstanding of the situation.

Kraxis
01-21-2006, 19:56
It is winter 2006.
Exactly!!!!
But I fear SEGA doesn't know that...

The Stranger
01-21-2006, 19:58
OMG im in love...is that blood i saw on a units armour...i mean if it is .......oohohohohooh

and i hope i read and saw it right but does a unit now have multiple faces or is that just for the screenies

x-dANGEr
01-21-2006, 20:08
Don't be silly!
We can all be rational about fear when we are outside it. Then we can feel as if we don't fear anything, but fear does take a man, even a determined religious fanatic. And it wasn't as if they were religious to the point fanaticism, some were but most weren't. It has even been argued that the christians were worse in that department in that age, that they were more likely hold some sort of religious fervour in battle, and disregard their own lives.

Since practically all battles prior to the modern age have been decided due to morale, the Muslims would never have been halted if their morale was consistently better than their enemies.
Also how do you explain routing muslim armies? Or tiny crusader armies beating much larger muslim ones in the first years of the crusades?

Now I agree that in MTW the Muslims were terribly underpowered when the game moved into High. And that was just not right. THere are reasons as to how the Almohads/successors managed to stay in Grenada for so long after losing their heartland there. Part of the exlaination is that they were not stagnant.

But from making the technology better to making the Muslim armies unbreakable is a serious misunderstanding of the situation.
But morale did get them where they went. Muslims didn't have those very heavily armored catas, or those deadly 3 metre pikes. They had valour, they kept attacking Constantinople untill they occupied it. Unbreakable!! Who said that? I said make their valour the best (In other words) or else find a way to make them as good as others 'while' keeping them historically accurate.

RZST
01-21-2006, 20:44
nice screenshots =D

time to make wallpapers again! :juggle2:

Kraxis
01-21-2006, 20:59
But morale did get them where they went. Muslims didn't have those very heavily armored catas, or those deadly 3 metre pikes. They had valour, they kept attacking Constantinople untill they occupied it. Unbreakable!! Who said that? I said make their valour the best (In other words) or else find a way to make them as good as others 'while' keeping them historically accurate.
Actually the muslim armies were not really technologically behind the European armies. Their cavalry was often as heavy and their light cavalry was most assuredly better.

Yet the shock of initial contact with European/Frankish styled charges broke them consistently in the beginning. Even the bravest men fled. Just like they had in Europe.

The muslim armies did have a morale advantage, in general, in the initial expasion after Muhammed. That is true. But it is not superior morale that means you will take a place after hundreds of years of trying, that is determination of your leaders and in some cases chance.

No what would be more practical and historical would be equal morale (to Europeans) save special units, better mobility and slightly less armour. Broadly speaking.
Muslim units were not 'behind' much until plate armour began getting popular. But still the Ottomans kept up by developing other equipment.

Watchman
01-21-2006, 21:04
Ottoman persistence and eventual success in attacking Constantinopole had everything to do with their imperial priorites and skill in siege warfare and preciously little to do with religion. And they had to try several times, too. And it was *still* a pretty close run thing.

Back in the 7th century or so the Arabs had besieged the place for years, to no avail (I think the Emperor eventually managed to offer them enough tribute to get them call it off). And they were still running on the high gear of the newly established faith's militant expansionism phase. The as-such usefully unifying religious fervor didn't much keep them from having serious issues with Sassanid war elephants, however, and routing from several battles for other reasons. Ditto for the Moors when they butted their heads bloody against Frankish lines at Poitiers, 732 AD.

Conversely, firm belief in a direct ticket to Heaven through martyrdom did not to my knowledge make either crusading European armies or the military Orders in some way unbreakable. Some of course were; but when the push really came to shove, most would panic and run like any other soldiers in the same situation.

The Muslim (initially really Arab) ability to overrun a poerful, long established empire and bring another to its knees in their initial Blitzkrieg came from many reasons, but among the chief ones was the simple fact Byzantium and the Sassanids had been fighting each other more or less intensively for quite a while and were caught in a rather weakened state. The Arabs may not have been steppe nomads, but quite a few of them were desert nomads and hence capable of considerable strategic mobility, especially in deserts, that the imperial armies found difficult to match.

Around those times pikes had fallen from use (although to my knowledge standard one-handed infantry fighting spears the world over have tended to reach lenghts of some two and half meters that doesn't quite compare to the up to 5.5 meter Hellenic and Medieval pike...) anyway, and the Arabs swiftly copied the cataphract principle to the extent their resources allowed - which in practice meant most of the horses had to make do with hardened leather barding, for example. Well, at least that kept the load down and retained greater mobility.

Orda Khan
01-21-2006, 21:07
But morale did get them where they went. Muslims didn't have those very heavily armored catas, or those deadly 3 metre pikes. They had valour, they kept attacking Constantinople untill they occupied it. Unbreakable!! Who said that? I said make their valour the best (In other words) or else find a way to make them as good as others 'while' keeping them historically accurate.
They took Constantinople with very large guns. Not a great deal of valour there.
While I agree that in MTW the Moslem factions were too weak in comparison with the European, I agree with Kraxis.
As for the Mameluks and stopping the Mongol threat.....there was far, far more involved than a disciplined army. Ain Jalut was an army against a rearguard ( and that rearguard gave a very good account ) and a large contingent of the Mameluk army were in fact Golden Horde, sent there by Berke.
For a clearer picture of how impossible any further expansion was for the Ilkhanate, read Qaidu and the Rise of the Independent Mongol State in Central Asia. The complexities of threats from all sides meant consolidation was all the Ilkhanate could realistically think about.

As for MTW II, I just hope CA do not repeat the mistakes of MTW. Namely, overly strong European armies, poor unit cost comparison and a pathetically weak Mongol presence

.......Orda

Adrian II
01-21-2006, 21:26
Despite sharing some peoples' questions or doubts about specs, the AI, battle speed, diplomacy ectetera, I must say some of the announced features are enough to make my mouth water.

Hurling dead animals into cities, now there's a thought for the weekend.

And the new, 'historically correct' option to have your Priest become Cardinal or even Pope, thus enhancing your faction's power and standing, is in one word: brilliant.
:elephant:

VikingHorde
01-21-2006, 21:44
OMG, this is my happy day! I was praying for MTW2 and got it! I think it will be better than RTW and even better MTW1. With sega providing better support, it will get a better start than RTW did when it came out. I was hoping for more factions like 30 or so, but we will see. The pics looks cool and the press release says a release date of december 2006, cool! I just hope it doesn't gets moved.

RZST
01-21-2006, 21:50
how i love the .org, people arguing over the slightest irregularities(sp?) *sighs*
instead of focusing on the big shiny pictures

ajaxfetish
01-21-2006, 21:56
Start firing up your modding skills, VH! ~:). I'd like to see 30+ factions, too. And of course if they do make any of the mistakes we worry about, I'm counting on guys like you to fix them.

Ajax

Reenk Roink
01-21-2006, 22:00
On the little mini-debate, the muslim factions definitely need to be made stronger (touche for mongols as well) but not at the levels that some may suggest.

It's undeniable that the muslim armies immediately after Muhammad had unmatched morale and zeal...

Take the example of Yarmuk where a lightly equipped muslim army essentially crushed a Byzantine army AT LEAST twice it's size and with much better arms and training in a frontal assault.

But it is also undeniable that this kind of ethic in the muslim soldier tapered off as time passed...and the muslims suffered reverse defeats.

I think that the best way to go about this is somewhere in the middle...

And yes, I am intrigued by the shinies, but more so about the POSSIBLE* improvements in gameplay...

VikingHorde
01-21-2006, 22:11
Start firing up your modding skills, VH! ~:). I'd like to see 30+ factions, too. And of course if they do make any of the mistakes we worry about, I'm counting on guys like you to fix them.

Ajax
Well, im not very good at making 3D models, so I can only mod tekst stuff ~:) . It is one of the resons why I don't mod RTW any more. Maybe I'll make a realism mod of some kind if MTW2 isn't perfect, but we will see ~;) .

ajaxfetish
01-21-2006, 22:11
Much as I am excited by the breathtaking screenshots, I'd rather have a great game with mediocre graphics. Afterall, the #1 game I play here in 2006 is M:TW (1). 3 1/2 years out and still going strong.

Ajax

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 22:22
Need to clear some issues.


Back in the 7th century or so the Arabs had besieged the place for years, to no avail (I think the Emperor eventually managed to offer them enough tribute to get them call it off). And they were still running on the high gear of the newly established faith's militant expansionism phase. The as-such usefully unifying religious fervor didn't much keep them from having serious issues with Sassanid war elephants, however, and routing from several battles for other reasons. Ditto for the Moors when they butted their heads bloody against Frankish lines at Poitiers, 732 AD.

poitiers was a case of a small arab force against a much larger frankish force, they were already retreating from their recent raids when the franks organised for a defence.

The important factor was the frankish shield wall as most raiders were cavalry, think of it as a phalanx, the arabs didn't really put much of a fight though, most were too concerned with the loot they gained.

On the sassanid war elephants, they did adapt eventually, very remarkably fast too, they used camels and elephant slayers in a certain battle, the elephants themselves pretty much did the work for the arabs in routing the sassanids.

But as for the franks, the arabs didn't really adapt becuase contact with them before the crusades was pretty minimal, thats why at first crusaders won against superior odds.


The Muslim (initially really Arab) ability to overrun a poerful, long established empire and bring another to its knees in their initial Blitzkrieg came from many reasons, but among the chief ones was the simple fact Byzantium and the Sassanids had been fighting each other more or less intensively for quite a while and were caught in a rather weakened state. The Arabs may not have been steppe nomads, but quite a few of them were desert nomads and hence capable of considerable strategic mobility, especially in deserts, that the imperial armies found difficult to match.

You forgot that the both empires were fully capable of repelling the arabs, the real problem was the arabs had very good to excellent commanders, even if the empires weren't weak, at best the entire qaddisya and yarmuk campaigns would have been longer, due to the lack of competent sassanid and byzantine commanders.

Now if Heraclius wasn't totally nutters, that would have been a different story.


Around those times pikes had fallen from use (although to my knowledge standard one-handed infantry fighting spears the world over have tended to reach lenghts of some two and half meters that doesn't quite compare to the up to 5.5 meter Hellenic and Medieval pike...) anyway, and the Arabs swiftly copied the cataphract principle to the extent their resources allowed - which in practice meant most of the horses had to make do with hardened leather barding, for example. Well, at least that kept the load down and retained greater mobility.

I don't believe the arabs copied armies they met, they just recruited on the move, visigoths, sassanids, byzantines, and whoever they met on their way, by the time they reached the pyrannese alot of their army were composed of berbers and visigoths, and at Talas it was turkic.

Arab armies were relatively light at the time of conquests, chainmail being the heaviest armor they had, and only available to whoever can afford it (usually nobility).

Anyways, i agree mostly with kraxis, it shouldn't be overtly exaggerated, just make the muslims competent at least without the need to micromanage alot(especially in MP, muslim faction players know how hard it is controlling horse archers and micromanaging them), and also provide units for later ages, in MTW they were stuck with very few mid-late game units and had to rely on mostly crap units compared to the chivalrics and heavier cavalry the europeans got (even the byzantines suffer from this to some extent).

Templar Knight
01-21-2006, 22:28
Weren't the Franks heavily outnumbered at Tours/Poitiers, some 17,000 against 60,000?

Leet Eriksson
01-21-2006, 23:25
Weren't the Franks heavily outnumbered at Tours/Poitiers, some 17,000 against 60,000?

There were no certain numbers, based on a christian source it was some 15,000-75,000 against 300,000 (bit exaggerated).

For arab sources, some say were equal, some say the arabs were outnumbered.

Here are the relevant articles:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199302/the.arabs.in.occitania.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Tours

ShadowMagnet
01-22-2006, 00:32
Personally I can't understand why some dare whinge about CA returning to medieval era again. Was there any alternative course of history you know about? Any unturned stones? Did I miss anything at school? There had been summat like fifty games about middle ages before MTW and you still bloody drooled over it when it came out. I nearly wet my pants when I saw STW even though I had been playing Nobunaga's Ambition 1,2 and 3 before. Just deal with it.
Or would you perhaps prefer Star Trek TW just because it's a fairly fresh idea for a strategy game?

Taffy_is_a_Taff
01-22-2006, 00:40
I thought that the Turks got some very nice late game units...

Leet Eriksson
01-22-2006, 00:55
I thought that the Turks got some very nice late game units...

we are primarily on egypt and almohad... egypt can handle a bit of abuse if they can churn out some mamelukes and good commanders, but almohads only uniques are AUM and Berber Camels.. which makes them a bad choice, unless you really like it rough ~;p

Quid
01-22-2006, 01:22
Unsure if this has been commented on, but what exactly does 'winter 2006' mean? Is it this winter or next. Granted this winter (the one running now) is awfully close (is winter in fact :dizzy2:) and the announcement awfully late but do we really have to wait for an entire year for this ?

Quid

Leet Eriksson
01-22-2006, 01:29
Unsure if this has been commented on, but what exactly does 'winter 2006' mean? Is it this winter or next. Granted this winter (the one running now) is awfully close (is winter in fact :dizzy2:) and the announcement awfully late but do we really have to wait for an entire year for this ?

Quid

I'm pretty sure by winter they mean Q4. I hope i'm wrong though..

Quid
01-22-2006, 01:34
Yes, that would make sense, of course. I just had this little glimmer of hope that it would be sooner rather than later because it will be an awfully long wait. Thanks anyway [trots off with a little tear in his eye...].

Quid

ajaxfetish
01-22-2006, 01:36
By the way, for anyone who hasn't noticed yet, the org now has a whole forum set aside for Medieval 2: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=130
You may want to check it out for further discussion as well.

Ajax

Shoraro
01-22-2006, 02:38
It's outside the time period by 35 years (1565) but in during the Great Siege of Malta the Knights of St John (numbering 600 - 700) with about 9,000 men-at-arms held off an invading Ottoman force estimated at 200 ships and 40,000 men.

One thing of note, amongst many, is the age of the Grand Master at the time. Jean Parisot de la Valette was 71 when he commanded the defences. Also, Dragut Rais, one of the Muslim commanders, was 80. Both had been galley slaves.

I just wish the game covered it. Maybe upto Lepanto in 1571. Ah well, guess we all want something that isn't going to be covered. ~:) Really looking forward to this though.

ChefBoyRDee
01-22-2006, 02:43
Am I the only one who is slightly dissappointed about this news?

I was expecting Napoleon Total War or at least a different time frame such as the Peloponnesian/Persian wars or the Mongol Invasions of India and China.

I have played all the Total War games, and will play this too, but there are so many other interesting periods.

Orda Khan
01-22-2006, 04:38
There were no certain numbers, based on a christian source it was some 15,000-75,000 against 300,000 (bit exaggerated).

For arab sources, some say were equal, some say the arabs were outnumbered.

Of the size of each army there are so few credible accounts that the only thing that is safe to say is that the Franks were victorious. Even the date is being disputed

.....Orda

LeftEyeNine
01-22-2006, 09:18
Am I the only one who is slightly dissappointed about this news?

I was expecting Napoleon Total War or at least a different time frame such as the Peloponnesian/Persian wars or the Mongol Invasions of India and China.

I have played all the Total War games, and will play this too, but there are so many other interesting periods.

I think RTW was something below the disaster. The first-time use of 3d eye candy graphics was RTW's stronghold. I was never and ever excited or nervous while playing the Rome era where diplomacy and variety of soldiers was a "total failure". That was not utterly the mistake of CA though, the concept of war was less "total" by the period. The things were simply "simpler", me thinks. RTW has no atmosphere. Zero. That's why I can't play RTW.

However Medieval era has all brutality mankind carried from the beginning while including complex "peaceful" relationships. And yes, that is total war indeed.

MTW:2 would be CA's worst miss ever if they had never thought about re-making it. MTW2 is here and CA proved out to be one of the best Dev. studio around, because repeating a game concept in order to make use of newer technologies is something the others hesitate or can not plan.

:2thumbsup: for CA... They deserve every penny (and even more) they earn for their efforts. :balloon2:

x-dANGEr
01-22-2006, 09:40
:inquisitive:
Ottoman persistence and eventual success in attacking Constantinopole had everything to do with their imperial priorites and skill in siege warfare and preciously little to do with religion. And they had to try several times, too. And it was *still* a pretty close run thing.But if it weren't for Islam, they'd be sitting back in the deserts.

Back in the 7th century or so the Arabs had besieged the place for years, to no avail (I think the Emperor eventually managed to offer them enough tribute to get them call it off). And they were still running on the high gear of the newly established faith's militant expansionism phase. The as-such usefully unifying religious fervor didn't much keep them from having serious issues with Sassanid war elephants, however, and routing from several battles for other reasons. Ditto for the Moors when they butted their heads bloody against Frankish lines at Poitiers, 732 AD.Well, Muslims did have trouble with Saissanid eles at start, but they adapted to them quicky, and it's mentioned that to do that, they trained their camels and horses on bags of straws that looked like eles.



Conversely, firm belief in a direct ticket to Heaven through martyrdom did not to my knowledge make either crusading European armies or the military Orders in some way unbreakable. Some of course were; but when the push really came to shove, most would panic and run like any other soldiers in the same situation.
That's how you describe Al-Qadisya when 32k muslims withing fighting 1700 women were fighting more than 120k Romans/Sassadins (Can't remember :inquisitive: )


The Muslim (initially really Arab) ability to overrun a poerful, long established empire and bring another to its knees in their initial Blitzkrieg came from many reasons, but among the chief ones was the simple fact Byzantium and the Sassanids had been fighting each other more or less intensively for quite a while and were caught in a rather weakened state. The Arabs may not have been steppe nomads, but quite a few of them were desert nomads and hence capable of considerable strategic mobility, especially in deserts, that the imperial armies found difficult to match.Well, the main reason for the battle with Saissadins, was that they killed a messenger for Arabs. And Romans were considering them steppe nomads, so they weren't allowed to go in what we muslims call a holy land (Al-Quds a.k.a. Jerusalim). But still, counting the fact that muslims had nothing more than a chain mail, and really most of them with no armor at all, because of the 'n0-money' status, and yet had the war VS both Romans and Saissadins together, and all they fed on was 3 dates a day, you can't say that the main reason for their victories on them wasn't morale, or tactical generals. At that era, shortly after the death of Prophet Mohammad and the one ruled after him (Abu Bakr Essiddeek), Muslims morale was firing, espiecially that they were led by the bravest muslim general to be known, Omar Ibn el-Khattab (Led as ruled).



Around those times pikes had fallen from use (although to my knowledge standard one-handed infantry fighting spears the world over have tended to reach lenghts of some two and half meters that doesn't quite compare to the up to 5.5 meter Hellenic and Medieval pike...) anyway, and the Arabs swiftly copied the cataphract principle to the extent their resources allowed - which in practice meant most of the horses had to make do with hardened leather barding, for example. Well, at least that kept the load down and retained greater mobility.And what were their resources? All they had is spears, camels, horses and dates. Is that enough to make a cata, then I didn't know that.

Watchman
01-22-2006, 13:34
Resources can be... aquired. From their previous possessors (read as "looted), captured armouries, captured manufacturing hubs, in trade...

Not that the weight of equipement was such a decisive issue anyway. Steppe nomads seem to have done quite fine with bows, various types of leather armour, and scrawny little ponies. Overextended empires in general actually seem to have been in the habit of getting the stuffing kicked out of them by incursions of poorly equipped 'barbarians', although the invaders also tend to be in the habit of equipping thmselves with better gear ASAP.

To give an RTW analogy, you use unimpressive basic troops to capture a decent-sized city while the opponent is busy elsewhere and promptly start using his infrastructure to give a thorough equipement overhaul to your men. Heck, when the Mongols did their damnedest to turn parts of Central Asia into wasteland they nonetheless made a point out of sparing armourers and other such useful craftsmen... Same principle.

Leet Eriksson
01-22-2006, 13:48
Of the size of each army there are so few credible accounts that the only thing that is safe to say is that the Franks were victorious. Even the date is being disputed

.....Orda

No argument here, i totally agree.

A.Saturnus
01-22-2006, 16:37
Am I the only one who is slightly dissappointed about this news?

I was expecting Napoleon Total War or at least a different time frame such as the Peloponnesian/Persian wars or the Mongol Invasions of India and China.

I have played all the Total War games, and will play this too, but there are so many other interesting periods.


While I agree that there would have been other interesting scenarios, I can understand that they return to medieval. Many people hoped for seeing a medieval scenario in 3D and it´s simply the scenario that interests most people because of it´s familiarity.

Afro Thunder
01-22-2006, 17:55
Wow, I go away for a few weeks and look what happens. They're making a whole new honking game here!:dizzy2:

King Henry V
01-22-2006, 18:34
I just have one thing to say to CA: Please, just take your time with this game. It is a perfect era, a wonderful engine and the original MTW was fantastic. However, don't rush the game for the Christmas market so that we all get a half baked product. I don't mind waiting three months extra in exchange for a super and almost bugless game.
Thank you!

ShadesWolf
01-22-2006, 19:44
All I can say is WOW

This is an excellent time period with so many possibilities.

PFJ_bejazuz
01-22-2006, 20:11
*rolls up sleeves*

*falls to knees*

"PLEASE LET IT WORK AS AN MP EXPERIENCE LIKE MTW1"

-----------

(& as to Islamic armies - I've always said their units should be much larger than european equivalents)

KukriKhan
01-22-2006, 21:44
Many thanks to all for the excellent response. Now that we have a dedicated forum for Medi2, we'll move this thread there.

Junior Members are able to respond there, so new guys: don't be shy. :laugh4:

Mount Suribachi
01-22-2006, 21:58
I seriously doubt we'll see MTW2 in Q4 2006 - all games release dates slip. I remember the howling when RTW was slipping...

Things that have piqued my intrest

- The "individual" appearance of soldiers by mixing and matching different body parts

- The Blood and dirt on soldiers as the battle wears on

- The general jaw-droppingness of the graphics

- The Papacy. They sound very much like the Senate from RTW. The ability to promote Bishops to Cardinal and even intruegue to elect your own pope is reminiscant of the Cursus Honorum from RTW. It also sounds like the Pope will give you missions, much like the senate.

- Scotland as playable faction. The incessant whinging from the jocks in the run up to MTW was unbearable. One less thing to worry about ~:)

- The return of assination movies - yay!

Things that cause me to raise an eyebrow

- The "combo-moves". As someone else pointed out, sounds a little to consoley, but if done properly could actually be really cool.

- Milan as a playable faction, but not Genoa????

Like everyone else says, I also want better AI, better diplomacy, and battles that last longer than 5 minutes.

As for the 2 sub-threads in here

Trebuchets - there was a superb documentary on TV here a few years ago. They built a giant "castle wall" using traditional medieval techniques, and got 2 teams to build a trebuchet each, with which they were to try and knock down said wall. One team, lead by an academic, built theirs without wheels. The academic was a real arrogant, conceited ****. He sneered at any suggestion that Trebuchets had wheels and thus built his without them. The other team was lead by a (non-academic) expert in mediaval weapons and their construction. Based upon medieval sources showing Trebs with wheels, he built his with wheels.

And whaddya know? The wheeled Trebuchet significantly out-ranged the non-wheeled one. And, just as importantly, it out-ranged the longbow as well, something that I'm sure the Treb crew would have appreciated. The programme did an excellent job of explaining the physics of why the wheeled Treb had a longer range, even having slo-mo footage of a little model Treb to demonstrate. IIRC it went backwards, then as the arm approached the release point started moving forwards, giving the projectile additional impetus as it was launched.

They also had cameras set up on the "castle wall" which filmed the rocks as they flew towards to the wall, and let me tell you it was damn scary! Very good program.


Islamic Armies - I just wanted to make a point about the fall of Constantinople. x_DANGEr seemed to think that it fell due to the sheer heroism & bravery of the Ottoman armies. Which neglects 2 key issues.

1) The Ottomans weren't the first to take Constantinople. The infamous 4th Crusade under the leadership of the blind octagenerian Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo, some 250 years previously

2) Perhaps the biggest single factor in the taking of Constantinople by Mehmet II was that he had a great big cannon with which to batter down the walls. A cannon designed and built incidentally by a German. Go figure.

cutepuppy
01-22-2006, 22:14
- Milan as a playable faction, but not Genoa????



Well, most people seem to forget that Milan was more of a political power, while genoa was a naval trade power. Milan was the leading city of the lombard league, which defeated the HRE several times, and from the second half of the 14th century (Sforza and Viscont families), Milan had some very close ties with some royal dynasties. The duke of milan was regarded as one of the most important men of europe, and Milan was one of the biggest cities in europe (I think second, just after paris) from the second half of the 13th century, with a population of up to 100000 people. I think the developpers made a very wise decision by choosing Milan over Genoa.

PFJ_bejazuz
01-22-2006, 22:28
Like everyone else says, I also want better AI, better diplomacy, and battles that last longer than 5 minutes.

*cough* & maps as big as MTW1



Trebuchets - there was a superb documentary on TV here a few years ago. They built a giant "castle wall" using traditional medieval techniques, and got 2 teams to build a trebuchet each, with which they were to try and knock down said wall. One team, lead by an academic, built theirs without wheels. The academic was a real arrogant, conceited ****. He sneered at any suggestion that Trebuchets had wheels and thus built his without them. The other team was lead by a (non-academic) expert in mediaval weapons and their construction. Based upon medieval sources showing Trebs with wheels, he built his with wheels.

And whaddya know? The wheeled Trebuchet significantly out-ranged the non-wheeled one. And, just as importantly, it out-ranged the longbow as well, something that I'm sure the Treb crew would have appreciated. The programme did an excellent job of explaining the physics of why the wheeled Treb had a longer range, even having slo-mo footage of a little model Treb to demonstrate. IIRC it went backwards, then as the arm approached the release point started moving forwards, giving the projectile additional impetus as it was launched.

They also had cameras set up on the "castle wall" which filmed the rocks as they flew towards to the wall, and let me tell you it was damn scary! Very good program.

top show - trying to find the URL i had of an excellent page someone on britarch put up with pics & diagrams of said same

L'Impresario
01-22-2006, 22:48
Talking about Constantipole made me think about how exactly will MTW II handle specific cities (and their fortifications). Will there be historical map layouts, esp. for cities whose exact features are extremely well known, such as Jerusalem, Constantinople, Granada etc (maybe even Buda and Pest).



1) The Ottomans weren't the first to take Constantinople. The infamous 4th Crusade under the leadership of the blind octagenerian Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo, some 250 years previously

Well, at least it wasn't a real siege with a straightforward attack, like the Ottomans had to face, nor was it that expected. Ofcourse pre-1204 Byzantium was in a considerably better position than in 1453, but still..

Just a minor correction

A cannon designed and built incidentally by a German.

Urban was Hungarian;)

EDIT: If anyone knows the name of that program, please do mention it ASAP:)

Kraxis
01-23-2006, 02:24
Thinking about the wheels makes sense now...

Simple physics tells you that when you throw back weight you are propelled forwards. Now make a 'light' frame and add a heavy weight that swings down and backwards. The frame will, if on practical wheels, move forwards...
Now I didn't think of this as I didn't believe the wheels would be rolling well enough for this, or the weight to be propelled far enough backwards to send the frame forwards. But obviously I was wrong.

x-dANGEr
01-23-2006, 09:20
Islamic Armies - I just wanted to make a point about the fall of Constantinople. x_DANGEr seemed to think that it fell due to the sheer heroism & bravery of the Ottoman armies. Which neglects 2 key issues.

1) The Ottomans weren't the first to take Constantinople. The infamous 4th Crusade under the leadership of the blind octagenerian Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo, some 250 years previously

2) Perhaps the biggest single factor in the taking of Constantinople by Mehmet II was that he had a great big cannon with which to batter down the walls. A cannon designed and built incidentally by a German. Go figure.
A little correction, he's called Mohammad (el-fateh). And what I insist on being a huge factor of taking Constantinople, was the urging of muslims, they have sieged it many times, attacked it many times and lost many times. But still, they kept attacking it.

Martok
01-23-2006, 10:09
Talking about Constantipole made me think about how exactly will MTW II handle specific cities (and their fortifications). Will there be historical map layouts, esp. for cities whose exact features are extremely well known, such as Jerusalem, Constantinople, Granada etc (maybe even Buda and Pest).


This is something that has me concerned/excited as well. I would like all major cities to look as historically accurate as is *reasonably* possible. I realize that from a gameplay perspective, cities that are particularly large (such as Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Cairo) cannot be shown as their true size. Otherwise whichever faction that owned these cities at the beginning of the game would have a ridiculous and unfair advantage--particularly in terms of wealth and manpower. I still hope, however, that these "uber-cities" (for want of a better term) will at least have some of their distinctive features on the map.

Some examples: Cairo would have the Great Mosque and the Caliph's Palace. Constantinople would have the Imperial Palace and the Haga Sofia. Jerusalem would have the Wailing Wall, the Dome of the Rock, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Rome would have St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican. London would have the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey. Paris would have Notre Dame. (Yes, I know Rome, London, and Paris were nowhere near as big as the other three back then; I just included them because they're also well-known examples of what I'm referring to.)

Yes, I realize at least some of these structures either didn't exist yet in 1080, and/or were still being constructed. Therefore, I'm hoping these structures appear in their respective cities' build queues once the correct year has arrived.

Mount Suribachi
01-23-2006, 12:07
Just a minor correction


Urban was Hungarian;)



Well, my reference states that he was a German - the point is, he wasn't a Muslim.


A little correction, he's called Mohammad (el-fateh).

I've honestly never seen him referred to as Mohammad - only ever as Mehmet. Whereas Mohammed the Prophet is always referred to in English as Mohammed (or Muhammed).


And what I insist on being a huge factor of taking Constantinople, was the urging of muslims, they have sieged it many times, attacked it many times and lost many times. But still, they kept attacking it.

Your argument is contradictory. They besieged Constantinople many times, yet repeatedly failed - was their faith-inspired-bravery any the less the previous times? Or was it that when Constantinople finally fell that the Byzantine Empire was on its last legs, that the Ottoman Empire was on the rise, that they were led by highly talented and ambitious young man, and that they had a great big cannon with which to knock down the walls.

You need to look at things a bit more objectively. For every Islamic victory that you claim was won by their religious zeal, the good folks here at the Org can name you 2 defeats.

jean_s
01-23-2006, 14:30
great news indeed :)

I want to see the maaaapppp :D

Vladimir
01-23-2006, 15:11
For those of you interested in the rise of Islam I would recommend Henri Pirenne's book: Mohammed et Charlemagne. The Muslims, like Cortez, benefited a great deal from being in the right place at the right time. Byzantium had just exhausted itself by recapturing a large part of the Occident and fighting against the Persians. Local and religious politics also played a role as well. I'm not trying to take anything away from the Arabs mind you. The rise of Islam was also the catalyst for the onset of the Dark Ages in Europe when they closed the Mediterranean. Something which didn't affect the Italian traders too much.

Kraxis
01-23-2006, 16:29
To continually come back to a place where you have been defeated before has little to do with morale, but everything to do with persistence and determination.

Morale is the ability to withstand a scary situation (broadly speaking). Yes it would be scary to besiege Constantinople, but the ability to be there and not run away atthe sight of the walls, that is the only part that has to do with morale. Getting there, planning to go there and eventually figuring out how to get through the walls, has nothing to do with morale.

Constantinople was a case of determination.

x-dANGEr
01-23-2006, 17:41
Your argument is contradictory. They besieged Constantinople many times, yet repeatedly failed - was their faith-inspired-bravery any the less the previous times? Or was it that when Constantinople finally fell that the Byzantine Empire was on its last legs, that the Ottoman Empire was on the rise, that they were led by highly talented and ambitious young man, and that they had a great big cannon with which to knock down the walls.

You need to look at things a bit more objectively. For every Islamic victory that you claim was won by their religious zeal, the good folks here at the Org can name you 2 defeats.
I don't know where you can find that, it's a matter of miss-understanding what's written I believe (Or miss-clarification). As Kraxis just cut all the words I said putting it in one word, determination. I don't know what has got me their, but it surely has got nothing to do with morale. And really, what's the point of this "For every Islamic victory that you claim was won by their religious zeal, the good folks here at the Org can name you 2 defeats." What need I understand from it? And if that really happened, then Islam wouldn't have gone where it has, would it? Islamic nation kept going well till the late turkish govermont started increasing taxes more and more.. Pushing the people to a rebellion, allied with UK + France, of course, UK + France had betrayed the treaty and shared the Arabic countries among them (Along with Italy maybe) till rebellions repelled them one by one, and till UK gave Palestine to Jews and leaving us apart. No offence intended, just some bad feelings to those who 'support' those actions.

Grim
01-23-2006, 17:45
please, please, please make the AI on the campaign map better.
I am sooo tired of seeing the AI on R:TW laying siege to my cities and after a few turns, going away to pluck daisies.
I am so tired in M:TW to see the AI massing an impressive army against my nearly undefended border and sit there and watch the sun set decades over decades.
To all the modders out there: you are doing a colossal work but if the game is good then you won't NEED to mod it. I know and agree that there will always be room for improvement and it is human nature to tweak it just so you can say that you conceived of a wonder child and be a proud parent to show off your skills to us here. I just want a SP game that gives me a strategic and tactical headache from time to time instead of downloading this, unzipping that, fixing a bug here, trying to run it without success, asking for help receiving none... you get my drift. Sad to say but some of us are not very computer saavy... I've tried several times to get a mod to play only to bang my head against the intricacies that you guys eat for breakfast everyday :sweatdrop:

Think about it: less time to mod, more time to play. :charge:

King Henry V
01-23-2006, 17:46
And what I insist on being a huge factor of taking Constantinople, was the urging of muslims, they have sieged it many times, attacked it many times and lost many times. But still, they kept attacking it.
Hmmm, I think you maybe exaggerating the case a bit there. Admittedly the Muslim armies besieged Constantinople three times in the space of a few years (674, 674, 717) but that was during the peak of the full fervour that always accompanies a new religion. However, after 717 it would be over seven hundred years until the next time Constantinople would be besieged by a Muslim army and the main reason for those sieges was that the Byzantine Empire, with its stronghold of Constantinople, remained a threat to the Ottomans, not because of the Empire' power, but because it was able to send emissaries to the West with the same message: "Help, foul heathens are destroying a Christian country-Christians in danger, please send crusade."
It was not, as you seem to make out, that almost every generation the Muslims would send an army to capture Constantinople.

econ21
01-23-2006, 17:53
Islamic nation kept going well till the late turkish govermont started increasing taxes more and more.. Pushing the people to a rebellion, allied with UK + France, of course, UK + France had betrayed the treaty and shared the Arabic countries among them (Along with Italy maybe) till rebellions repelled them one by one, and till UK gave Palestine to Jews and leaving us apart. No offence intended, just some bad feelings to those who 'support' those actions.

I am very keen that this forum include historical information and debate about the period covered by MTW2, but the above is more like Backroom material. Please don't bring "bad feelings" in this forum - in here, we are all friendly gamers (or at least friendly would-be gamers waiting impatiently for MTW2). ~:grouphug:

Mount Suribachi
01-23-2006, 18:21
And really, what's the point of this "For every Islamic victory that you claim was won by their religious zeal, the good folks here at the Org can name you 2 defeats." What need I understand from it? And if that really happened, then Islam wouldn't have gone where it has, would it? Islamic nation kept going well

The point is that you come across as something of an Islamic fan-boy who seems to think that your boys can do (and have done) no wrong. From the posts you've made around the Org you seem to have a very narrow, biased knowledge of history - to the extent that you were unaware of the Moors & Timurids.

And you keep talking about the "Islamic nation" as if the Muslim world was one unified empire, which was, and is, quite clearly not true. After the initial 2 centuries where Islamic armies where near unbeatable followed a period of consolidation which many would describe as the high point of Islam, as personified by the Moors, followed by a gradual decline (with the exception of the Ottomans) as European civilisation flourished following the renaissance (sp?).

I just get a little wound up when fan-boys come along and start complaing about how [insert country of origin here] aren't some uber-powerful faction that can conquer everyone in sight, an omission they take as some kind of racial slur. It doesn't have to be Islamic, I've seen it with Scots, Danes, Swedes, Hungarians, Poles....

I mentioned the good people of the Org cos there are some incredibly knowledgable people here, people who know 100x more than me. And allied to that knowledge is a sense of perspective and objectivity. They don't attribute "their" countries victories to some inherent racial or religious superiority, and they don't make excuses for "their" sides defeats. They see the reasons on all sides, cause and effect, rationally and without predjudice. Mouzapherre and Faisal fall into this category.

Azi Tohak
01-23-2006, 18:31
On units, how exactly does CA do its research? Do they have a historical department devoted to finding what troops were where and when? It seems to me that many members of the Org know a great deal about various units and methods, which escapes (or seems to) CA much of the time. Does CA just pull stuff out?

I figure I might as well put this in the "Official thread" too. I'm worried about AI. MTW has very good AI. As in it can actually beat you. RTW has AI roughly analogus to my sister's Shih Tzu. Which is it going to be here?

Azi