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Tomisama
01-21-2006, 20:31
Is anyone still fighting with STW v1.12, or is everyone on MI/WE v1.02?

Does everyone have Map Pack 116?

Any folks looking for team games (3v3s or 4v4s), are there enough players to have these?

Is the 4 max of same unit and no rain, still pretty much standard play?

And I’ve forgotten honour level relationships if anyone can give me a clue, it might jar my little brain back into action :smile:

Quite a list huh!

Thanks in advance :shakehands:

Kansuke
01-21-2006, 21:11
Hi Tomi,

I loaded my game on today and gave it a go, must admit it was nice.

I think most play 1.02, 4 max etc, in order to play 2v2 and 3v3 I think we will need to organize a time, maybe SOS might be a good idea.

You can count me in anyway.

Bows.

Kansuke

arcade81
01-21-2006, 22:21
I've been playing pretty regulary since the new year. I am still relatively at a beginners standard. I have all the map packs and am eager to learn..

Just A Girl
01-22-2006, 13:10
Seems we play v1.02 WE. I think most have the map pack's

We usualy play 4 max unit. rule.
But ive never seen a battle where we had dissalowed a weather type.

We can ocasionaly play 3v3 but i have only seen 1 or 2. 4 v's 4 since my server was opend.

as for honour level relation ship...
Im not sure what you mean. But if this helps.

I think you get 2 extera combat points per honour point added on.
So honour is importaint.

Tecnhically.....
a honour 5 nd beats a honour 5 yari sam.
a honour 6 Ys beats a honour 5 Nd.

I hope that explains it

Drisos
01-22-2006, 15:21
~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)

Good to see some vets intrested! :bow:

For some teamgames try GMT evenings in the weekend. (also friday) A while ago we used to play every weekend...

sigh... I only hope I can fix the trouble with my comp so I play some games again...:juggle2:

Tomi here's one quick standard 1.02 army for you:

4 muskets h1
4 yari samurai h6
4 no-dachi h5
4 naginata cavalry h3 (general included)

I doubt I ever seen exactly this army, but it sure looks like all armies used these days. Naginata are too weak in 1.02, muskets very powerful so always used. Naginata cav are most popular.

Just A Girl
01-23-2006, 22:10
HA!
you wanna be using.
4 muskets h0
4 yari sams h6 w1 a0
2 nd h5 w1 a 0
1nd h5 w0 a 0
3 nag cavs h3 (1 of which is genereal)
2Yari cav h3

Thats prety close to 10k.
and i personaly like that army lots.
i dont use it to well. Lol.
But its the thought that counts :)

Sasaki Kojiro
01-23-2006, 23:23
You guys are really stingy on the ranged units...you'll get shot down big time against someone with 6 or 7 ranged. With 4 musks hon0 you may as well rush.

Trajanus
01-24-2006, 10:18
I usually sneak 1 or 2 Nags in just to confuse and surprise my opponent. Has worked well so far.

Drisos
01-25-2006, 17:09
Well Sasaki I used to take 6 ranged most of the time... sometimes even 8. (and I remember once I had 12.. was on a bridge defense :laugh4: )

but at the moment I have 0 ranged, 0 inf and 0 cav...:juggle2: :no:

Just A Girl
01-25-2006, 23:19
You guys are really stingy on the ranged units...you'll get shot down big time against someone with 6 or 7 ranged. With 4 musks hon0 you may as well rush.


I sometimes replace the 2 Yari cav with 2 cav archers.
H0 W0 A0
then i have even more money to upgrade my infantry than when i only have 4 ranged units.

but i think heavy ranged or heavy cav armys are a bit unballanced.
so i tend to try and have a infantry based army. Like i imagine it would have been.

AggonyDuck
01-31-2006, 09:24
Bah! 8 Cav is the way to go! :2thumbsup:

Just A Girl
01-31-2006, 16:10
8 cav only works as you can only have 4 anti cav units. "using the 4 max unit rule"
Hopefully given time it will be customary to alow the use of 8 yari sams to make up for the loss of the yari ashigaru,

Heavy cav armys could then bre bought back in to balance

Kansuke
01-31-2006, 16:32
Yes Duck would use 4 max, possibly 4 nag cav and 4 cav archer.

Kans.

AggonyDuck
01-31-2006, 17:19
Actually more propable would be 4 Nag Cav (h4), 1 Yari Cav (h5) and 3 (h0) Cav Arch. :)

Anyways Shambles, cav heavy armies are in no way out of balance. Simply those 4 Yari Sams are able to easily defeat atleast double their number of cavalry. Which leaves me to hope I can rout them with a musket fire + cav charge in the rear. Anyways usually the best hope with an army like that is to beat the cav decisively, while trying to avoid contact with enemy YS, until I've got almost total cavalry superiority.

Just A Girl
01-31-2006, 20:56
exactly...
So if the opponent had 8 pole arm units.
4 muskets hon 0
2 nag cav. 2 yari cav
your cavalry would be in trouble if they were the ones who were on the attack.

but as it is,
we have 4 anti cav units,
and a bunch of other Some what mediocre sword units.
Which does not hold well vs heavy cav army.

4 pole arm units can only restrain 4 cav units.
Where as the other 4 cav units can circle. and attack from the rear. Thus decimating the 4 anti cav units and still having 4 cav units left.

AggonyDuck
01-31-2006, 22:01
To be honest with 4 h0 musks and 8 YS, you would neither have the firepower or mobility to handle a cav based army. Also you forget that it's not a case of 4 YS vs 8 Cav, but a case of 4 YS+4 Cav situation. This scenario should be an easy win for the 4 YS+4 Cav fella, unless he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just A Girl
02-01-2006, 04:18
I beleve we should try this out.
I know your better than me at shogun.

but i beleve i would be able to inflict more losses on a strong cav army.
with 8 yari sams, 4 muskets and 4 cav,
than i could with, my usual army of 4 yari sams 4 muskests 5cav and 3 no dachi

4 yari sams could constantly defend my muskets preventing them from being charged, Thus they would not rout.
Whilst the other 4 yari sams could be used to attack your cav.
The muskets could shoot your infantry and your cav Provided that the weather is nice.
And i would still have plenty of infantry units left for mele if in deed it was ever needed.

My cav could be used for any number of things, and probably would be.
And i dont see how a strong cav army would win.
2 yari cav and 2 nag cav. would be able to corner any CA. which the yaris could not attack.

and unless you brought 4 CA. it would be difficult for them to escape unless you sacrifice your muskets defences to defend the Ca.

Given that i had earlier stated that this would be a situation where the heavy cav army was the attacker.
I personaly think the heavy cav army would loose,
And this would be even more true If both opponents were of similar skill level.

I beleve 4 cav would have the mobilaty to distrupt your plans. and chase down any routers.
I also beleve that the cav would not be able to do much other than get shot or poked with long sticks.

and i dont see the opponents CA and muskets geting within range of the defending muskets, without needing to Sacrifice some of the muskets defences thus allowing a cav charge of my own to crush the opponets muskets.

We should try it some time :)
See how it pans out.

Just A Girl
02-01-2006, 04:21
P.S

have a look in the watch tower, for a thread called how do change my name?

It seems many have changed there names recently using that thread,

Prehaps it is time you became Agony instead of pain here as well
:bow:

AggonyDuck
02-01-2006, 09:08
This is my usual army setup;

4 h4 Nag Cav
1 h5 Yari Cav
2 h1 Cav Arch
1 h0 Cav Arch
4 h5 No-Dachi
4 h2 Muskets

As you can see my fire power is about double of yours and those h0 Musks won't stay for long once they tire and are fired at. Of course I've not played in a while, but I remember that h0 Musks have a bad habit of not sticking around. Provided that the map would be relatively flat, I should be able to defeat you in the shootout, which should leave me with 4 depleted Musks and 3 full cav archers. These could be used to deplete some of your Yari Sams and any attempt to chase me would result in your loss of cavalry, unless I'm stupid enough to engage your cav close to your YS. Your best hope would be an all out charge at me, which you might propably win.

I believe you might be using h3 Nag Cav/Yari Cav which would be quite worthless against my cav without YS support, which severely limits their mobility at the early stages of the battle. Anyways trying it out would be good, although I believe that I'm severely disadvantaged in either scenario.

Just A Girl
02-01-2006, 09:23
This is my usu...al army setup;

4 h4 Nag Cav
1 h5 Yari Cav
2 h1 Cav Arch
1 h0 Cav Arch
4 h5 No-Dachi
4 h2 Muskets

As you can see my fire power is about double of yours and those h0 Musks won't stay for long once they tire and are fired at. Of course I've not played in a while, but I remember that h0 Musks have a bad habit of not sticking around. Provided that the map would be relatively flat, I should be able to defeat you in the shootout, which should leave me with 4 depleted Musks and 3 full cav archers. These could be used to deplete some of your Yari Sams and any attempt to chase me would result in your loss of cavalry, unless I'm stupid enough to engage your cav close to your YS. Your best hope would be an all out charge at me, which you might propably win.

I believe you might be using h3 Nag Cav/Yari Cav which would be quite worthless against my cav without YS support, which severely limits their mobility at the early stages of the battle. Anyways trying it out would be good, although I believe that I'm severely disadvantaged in either scenario.


I tend to use my cav to make your muskets rout....
flanking side attacks often lead opponent's muskets routing.
I tned not to use my cave vs cav..
unless its YS vs CA,
and then i will try my best get round the back of the CA with 1 unint.
then attack with the other.
Scirmishing CA, then just get sandwiched and die Very fast.

You can also do it with NAG cav And Yari cav vs CA,
but the nag cav haft to be the ones attacking from the rear.
or the idiots dont get there in time and the ca can escape,

apart from CA,
cav units dont really frighten me that much.
My yari sams are usualy H6. and dont fear horses.


Your point on hon 0 muskets routing is true,

But in my last 2 battles. I had 3 units of h o muskets left at the end of the battle Even though they had come within Inches of a opponents cav more than 1ce.

"i lernt that they dont run way if your yari sams save them in time, but if they start to run away it takes ages to get them to come back"
So hon 0 muskets do work, Provided you defend them well.
Im getting gradualy better at that.

And seeing as you have 0 yari sams in that army...
I dont see your muskets being around very long.
as even high honour muskets runaway when they have horse hoof's bouncing off there scull.

I think it would be an interesting battle.
And prehaps we can do it some time when you have some free time.

Unfortunatly It cant be now.
But prehaps tomorrow or the week end, we can test it out and see what happens.

"i think i will lose, But not as badly as i would other wize"

:bow:

AggonyDuck
02-01-2006, 16:34
There's one thing wrong with they way you're imagining things....you wouldn't be able to actually make contact with my Musks. My cav could intercept you quite close to my Musks and trust me, your cav wouldn't stick around for long. Also I don't see how I would possibly need YS to protect my musks?

As far as I know actually having YS close enough to protect your Musks will just result in unnecessary casualties, when a couple of cav units can protect them, without risking casualties due to stray bullets.

But anyways we can test it out this Sunday or next week if it suits you better. ~;)

Just A Girl
02-02-2006, 00:41
Then we shal see how badly I loose :)
If i dont loose all that badly il beleve im right :D

Drisos
02-02-2006, 15:53
A bit of discussion is nice but keep it friendly... ~;)

Just go and test it in a few battles, and one of you will get the chance to proove his theory was right. oki? ~:)

AggonyDuck
02-02-2006, 17:10
Drisos, my real problem was with this statement:


8 cav only works as you can only have 4 anti cav units. "using the 4 max unit rule"
Hopefully given time it will be customary to alow the use of 8 yari sams to make up for the loss of the yari ashigaru,

Heavy cav armys could then bre bought back in to balance

In this statement, Shambles is saying that cav heavy armies are overpowered due to the 4 max rule. As a player who has always relied on my cavalry to deliver my victories, I must admit that I find it almost insulting.
But enough of that.

My point is not that I would be able to defeat him with cav when he has 8 YS, but that an army with 4 YS is actually well able to defeat a cav heavy army and that he is actually losing flexibility with 8 YS.

Kansuke
02-02-2006, 17:23
Hi Guys,

I tend to agree with Ducky on this debate, based on my own actual MP battle experience.

No need for a test, in reality it might be different, but in MP no chance, sorry Shambles.


Kans.

Drisos
02-03-2006, 07:30
In this statement, Shambles is saying that cav heavy armies are overpowered due to the 4 max rule. As a player who has always relied on my cavalry to deliver my victories, I must admit that I find it almost insulting.
But enough of that.

I know - it sounds a bit like you're exploited a little mistake in the rules.

Personally I think if I'd be the same skill as my opponent and he had 8 cavs I should be able to win. using 4 YS, 4 musk, 4 yc, and probably something like 2 nd and 2 nc.

Kansuke
02-03-2006, 09:52
Err, think your missing something here, 8 cav it might be, but 3 are CA, the point is the missiles will decimate a slow army quite quickly. If it were 8 combat cav, 4 inf and 4 musks, the 8 YS army would win.


Guys, I had 12 YS and 4 musks rushes hurled at me, CA work very well against it.


:wall:

Just A Girl
02-03-2006, 10:08
"No need for a test, in reality it might be different, but in MP no chance, sorry Shambles."

Well i still belive They should be available to people who Want to have 8 pole arm infantry.
if the opponent is allowed 8 cav.
if the yari ashi's were allowed You could have 8 pole arm infantry, without breaking the max 4 rule.
But ashis have been dissalowed.
so to compensate I sudgest that we allow people to use 8 YS if they so desier.

If it will reduce there mobilaty and mean they cant win Then they will not use them,
However I dont see how its fair to remove the possibilaty of having 8 pole arms infantry.
yet allow a heavy cav army.
4 nag cav, 4 Hc. 4 Yc, 4 muskets. Its a posible army that people could use.

and prior to disalowing Yari ashigarus.
you could have had 4 yari ashi 4 yari sams. 2 nag cav 2 yari cav and 4 Muskets.
to counter such an army. when defending.

I mearly propose that we allow 8 yari sams to be used.
becous ashi garu's are dissalowed.

This IMO would bring the game back in to ballance.

And Duck...
I did not mean to offend you.

AggonyDuck
02-03-2006, 11:23
4 nag cav, 4 Hc. 4 Yc, 4 muskets. Its a posible army that people could use.


I salute the guy who can use such an army to defeat a normal army with YS.
The fact is that if he was to field an army like that, it would end up with mostly h3 cav, which IMO doesn't tend to stick around when losing badly.

On the other hand a 4 NC, 4 HC, 4 CA army might work a bit better, but cav always needs infantry to support it IMO.

Anyways I guess this argument got a bit out of hand, so I apologize for starting it.

Sasaki Kojiro
02-03-2006, 16:51
Shambles, 4 ys and 4 cav will beat 8 cav quite easily. I don't see the problem here.

Drisos
02-03-2006, 17:12
Err, think your missing something here, 8 cav it might be, but 3 are CA, the point is the missiles will decimate a slow army quite quickly. If it were 8 combat cav, 4 inf and 4 musks, the 8 YS army would win.

Guys, I had 12 YS and 4 musks rushes hurled at me, CA work very well against it.

Hi kans,

At least from my experience (1.02 stats) I never really have a lot of problems with CA. perhaps it's because of their attack stat, or yari's defend stat but they don't tend to shoot many... also I doubt Duck uses 3 of them(mostly). though we haven't played that often. (yet)

and ehhh, I'm not suggesting anything more then 4 ys.. I mentioned 4 ys and 4 yc. yari cav is not that good in 1.02 but they are not 'slow' ~;) 12 YS would be getting a bit 'over-speared':sweatdrop: sounds like a Heavysword army lol~:)

Sasaki Kojiro
02-03-2006, 18:22
Dris, 2-3 ca used to be standard when I was playing. I Brought 4 quite often. Sometimes 7. Maybe you just havn't played anyone who knows how to use them?

Drisos
02-04-2006, 12:12
I have played some very good players, but still I don't think the ca are a big problem... maybe it's just me, but they don't seem to be causing a lot of damage..:embarassed:

AggonyDuck
02-05-2006, 14:53
One who thinks of CA as just a ranged unit, is truly mislead. The arrows are just a nice bonus for one of the best and versatile units in the game. Their true value lies in luring enemy cav out, peppering enemy inf and serving as decisive flankers. ~;)

Also yes Drisos, I do use 3 h0/1 Cav Arch in my armies. ~;)

AggonyDuck
02-05-2006, 14:57
Also just want to give you the advice; practice on your use of Cav Archers.
Once mastered, they are rewarding units to use, especially in sheer cost effectiveness. :2thumbsup:

Just A Girl
02-06-2006, 06:45
I dont see Why you would all have such a problem will Alloing 8 YS to be used by a player if they wish to have them,
seeing as they will mean that there army will now have no mobilaty.

If its not going to be a benafit to anti cav army's
why are you so oposed to the idea?

allowing soem 1 to use 8 ys wouldnt mean you would use 8.
But it would allow you to hav 4, 5 ,6,7 or 8 if you so desierd,
Replacing the Yari ashigarus that have been removed.

This i say would be Fair.
And i dont understand why people are oposed to the idea.
If it means your army sux,
Dont use so many YS.
But i still believe the choice should be available.

AggonyDuck
02-06-2006, 11:04
Well why not do away with the whole 4 max thingy alltogether then? (not musks though)

Just A Girl
02-06-2006, 12:19
Ive only ever realy played max 4 rules. and i think they work prety well.
Means you dont get people coming in with
7 cav 5 archers and 4 muskets.
or 12 cav 4 muskets.
or even 10 cav 2 yaris 4 muskets.

However my understanding is that The rule initaly was, 4 max muskets,
and no other units were punished.
Then the 4 max of any type rule roled over from that.
but then again I also understand at the same time ashi's were allowed.

So id tend to steer away from the alowance of any amount of all units apart from muskets.
12 kenzai and 4 muskets is enough to scare even the most hardend playe id imagine.

My problem is that if the ashi's wernt so unballanced,
You could get 8 pole arm units. whilst still using the 4 max rule.
But becous they are unballanced you loose the posibilaty of an extra 4 pole arm units.
but cav get no penalty to reflect this dissalowance.

I supose a nother option would be 4 max units apart from cav they get 2 max per type.
But i really would not like to see that implimented.
and i dont think id like to be rushed by 16 WM's either.

Tomisama
02-06-2006, 13:55
When Medieval first came out, I was very unhappy with the game, and tried going back to Shogun. I found a set of new players playing with 8 Yari 9s and 8 guns, and winning without skills, against old school (4 max) vets.

The general consciences conclusion was that the game had gone to the dogs, and that there was nothing left to do but trudge on with MTW.

The four maximum of “any” unit type, was a standard set by the STW community very early on. The purpose was to preserve the “quality” of the game, and build a community based on multiple skills (cavalry, infantry, range, and teamwork).

In those days, a violation of the commonly understood basic rules was considered “dishonourable”. And the 4 max was one of those rules.

Just A Girl
02-06-2006, 14:07
by yaris i take it you mean yari ashigaru. Or at H9.. th dreaded Super ashi.
Any way theres no real need to worry abouty dishonerable players.
I can repetedly kick them out till they become honerable :)
(But i refuse to ban any 1, "youd need to do something Prety special to get me to ban you")

ANY WAY...
To adress your post farther

Im sure some 1 told me it was 4 max muskets at 1 point. Then it balooned in to 4 max units,
And then even later no super ashis. (high honour yari ashigaru)
and finaly No ashi's at all.
(as people kept loosing there rag when they saw any ashigaru units on field High honour or not)

How ever there were never any steps taken to compensate for the loss of the ashis.
And that is all that i hope to address.

P.S

Im sorry for hyjaking this thread.

Drisos
02-06-2006, 16:10
The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be lifted for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way.. ~;)

Kansuke
02-06-2006, 16:31
Deleted.............

Sasaki Kojiro
02-06-2006, 17:57
The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be liften for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way.. ~;)

YS are super as well really. They defeat all other melee units for the same koku and of course destroy cavalry. They're the backbone of a good infantry line.

YS not important, ca not effective, you people are playing this game weird lol

Kansuke
02-06-2006, 20:37
Hi Mim,

Totally agree with you!

AggonyDuck
02-06-2006, 21:58
I'll second that!

Tomisama
02-07-2006, 02:55
I’ll third it :grin:

Yari Sams and Cav Archers “are” indispensable…

The units I can do without are Kensai and Battlefield Ninja. Maybe because they were not in the original Shogun, but more likely because I personally consider them to be unrealistic.

You can play with them if you want, and I won’t say anything. But I can’t, anymore than I can take more than 4 of any given unit, which has been my own personal standard through years of playing Total War.

You may beat me, that’s OK. But if you loose to me, please know that it happened with a basic balanced army :wink:

Drisos
02-07-2006, 07:46
The units I can do without are Kensai and Battlefield Ninja. Maybe because they were not in the original Shogun, but more likely because I personally consider them to be unrealistic.

Hmmm I do without arq's and naginata as well ~;)

Mimesaka where did I mention YS not important lol... I take 4 of them 90% of my battles probably.

Hmmm perhaps I wasn't awake last post - ys are super as well I guess.

but I won't say I fear 8 ca ~;p still got to convince me there

Puzz3D
02-09-2006, 17:24
Tecnhically.....
a honour 6 Ys beats a honour 5 Nd.
Don't you see how wrong that is? The YS is cheaper than the ND that it beats.

Puzz3D
02-09-2006, 18:28
The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be lifted for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way.. ~;)
The 4 max musket rule was used when playing at the designed 7k koku or lower once it was determined by the majority of players that muskets were too powerful. Of course, I knew they were too powerful the day beta testing ended on v1.02 and the stat was sent off to CA. I opposed the increase of musket power from 3 to 5, but was only able to get a compromise of power 4 which was still above the value at which all the multiplayer beta testing had been conducted.

The cost of WM had been raised from 500 koku to 550 koku, and that solved the all WM rush at 7k koku. The kensai was specifically altered for v1.02 to be more vulnerable to ranged fire because all-kensai armies were a problem in v1.01, and I don't remember all kensai being viable at 7k. All cav rush armies didn't work either against more balanced armies which had at least 6 YS infantry.

One thing to understand is that the cost of weapon and armor upgrades is not calculated correctly. They are calculated using the base cost of the unit regardless of its honor upgrades. The CA programmer who designed the battle AI and balanced the units admitted it after players had proven it with testing and showed him the results. That miscalculation is the reason superashi exist because the unbalancing effect of the upgrades is most pronounced with low cost units, but it also causes increasing balance problems as koku is raised above 7k. I think this is why players who continued to play v1.02 eventually moved to a 4 max of any unit and no-ashi rule.

If the v1.02 stat was good, you wouldn't need any rules limiting units. The earlier STW v1.12 is actually a better balanced game despite the monk rush issue. That was played at 5k koku, and there were no unit limits used. There were also no weapon and armor upgrades. Some time ago I made a stat for WE/MI which duplicates the STW v1.12 stat, so it is possible to get back to that gameplay using WE/MI if you don't use the weapon and armor upgrades or the new units specific to WE/MI. I don't think the monk rush would work because WM cost 550 in WE/MI. The cost of guns is also a little higher which would be another difference.

Tomisama
02-10-2006, 01:26
If I remember right, guns in STW were useless if there was any moisture in the air, and half the time rain was unavoidable. This may have been why there was a push to increase their power. But to do that, “and” remove the certainty of rain, “and” lessen rain’s effects (not sure how much), certainly unbalanced things.

(just thinking out loud :smile: )

P.S. Yuuki, I would sincerely appreciate your opinion on what koku level would be best for our upcoming 2v2 Tourney. Thanks in advance :bow:

Puzz3D
02-10-2006, 17:17
Yuuki, I would sincerely appreciate your opinion on what koku level would be best for our upcoming 2v2 Tourney. Thanks in advance.
I think v102 could be interesting at 5k with no unit limits except no muskets allowed. As I recall, you don't have to ban YA at 5k.

Just A Girl
02-10-2006, 20:42
I still think in real life if you trained sword men to a poor standard.
And a nother province trained there yari sams to a high standard.
That that would mean the sword men loose in battle.

I thought h5 ND and h6 YS were aproximatly the same price.
Or close to at the least.
Although i would need to go test that out like i did with the ashigarus to be sure.

But then again,
I also say cav shouldnt be able to head on charge 4 lines of muskets wityhout geting shot to pieces.
Some disagree there as well.

AggonyDuck
02-10-2006, 21:42
But cav do get shot to pieces, if the musks are on fire at will... :2thumbsup:

Just A Girl
02-11-2006, 09:51
The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

But it does seem to imply YS are given a slight unfair advantage.
(posibly due to Honour giving 2 combat points per bonus instead of 1)
And as a result I dont believe allowing 8 YS would be a great idea.

Prehaps 6 would be better?
i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.
All cav rush armies didn't work either against more balanced armies which had at least 6 YS infantry.


do people still dissagree that we should compensate for the loss of 4 Possible pole arm units
Without penalizing Cav units?

Sasaki Kojiro
02-11-2006, 18:20
The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

The point is that since ys cost less, have more armor, get a huge bonus vs cavaly, and will defeat the nd h2h, there is no reason to bring the nd except for the 4 max rule. If we had played with 6 ys allowed, everyone would have brought 6 ys. I'd sooner go without muskets than without yari sam. Cav rush armies are just not that effective in 1.02. If you bring some ca and along with the h2h cav and shoot around, you have a good chance, but that's really a whole different game.

Puzz3D
02-11-2006, 18:55
i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.
That was in multiplayer battles tests done at 7k koku with muskets of power 3.

BTW, guns are not supposed to stop a frontal charge by HC or NC and possibly not even YC. The idea is supposed to be that guns have to be protected by anti-cav units. Also, swords should be beating ant-cav infantry of lower cost. Using too many upgrades breaks the game because cheaper units get the same quality upgrade as more expensive units for less cost. The system can probably tolerate a double honor upgrade, but that's about it.

Upgrades also boost morale which is a problem because the morale system is not scaleable. The battle system only works properly over a very limited range of morale. YS have lower morale for a reason, and when a lot of honor upgrades are used that morale deficiency is removed. A unit such as ND has high morale, and as such doesn't benefit much from boosting morale whereas the YS is benefitting greatly. All the low morale units, YA, SA, YS, CA and guns are affected a lot by morale boosting upgrades.

The reason players moved from 7k to 10k was to get the morale up so that guns wouldn't rout a unit right away. I think the guns are at the root of the problem with v1.02, although, the cost of weapon and armor upgrades are also not calculated correctly and the infantry moves too slow relative to the fighting speed.

Just A Girl
02-12-2006, 04:08
Well why dosent every 1 use muskets h0?
They will run away..
But not if you defend them right (probably even if you do)
Would that help much?

Tomisama
02-12-2006, 16:59
:bow:
Ok, I did a little research this morning.

The Sengoku Period started with the 10 year Onin War in the mid 1400s. Firearms were not brought to Japan until the mid 1500s. So if we were to claim an early era Shogun Competition, we could rightfully exclude guns.

I would also like to exclude Kensai and Battlefield Ninja, as they are respectfully legend and myth. Also part of my research.

The Naginata seems to have been an ancient weapon even by the 1400s. But I am tempted to think of it’s primary use by that time, as an anti cavalry, not a cavalry weapon. I could be wrong but think that Naginata Cavalry should be excluded also (and I do use these myself).

It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting :smile:

Thoughts?

Puzz3D
02-12-2006, 18:21
It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting :smile:

Thoughts?
I think you can leave the Arquebusiers in the game. They have the accuracy of the muskets in original STW, don't fire in rain, have higher power, but are much slower firing and shorter range. They are cheaper than the original muskets, but they might work ok in the gameplay. You could run some test battles to make sure.

My own feeling on battlefield ninja and kensai is that they don't fit well into the battle engine. They benefit too much from battlefield upgrades, and aren't even balanced well, despite great effort to do so, in STWmod for MTW/VI which doesn't have battlefield upgrades.

The naginata cav does serve a gameplay purpose as assault cav if you wan't that kind of unit in the game. However, I don't think it's necessary to have it in the game especially if muskets are eliminated.

Tomisama
02-13-2006, 00:30
I think you can leave the Arquebusiers in the game.
I guess if we were going to move up to the 16th century, they would be ok.

Chinese handguns entered Japan in 1510. But the Arquebus had to wait for a Portuguese shipwreck in 1543. Six years later, the Tanegashima matchlock (reproduced Arquebus), was in first used in battle, remaining virtually unchanged until the 1860s.

As far as I can find, “any” muskets must have been imported from Europe (Spain) in the later half of the century, but the Japanese were not manufacturing them. So I doubt that there would have been many of them in comparison to their own guns.

Togakure
02-14-2006, 00:17
One who thinks of CA as just a ranged unit, is truly mislead. The arrows are just a nice bonus for one of the best and versatile units in the game. Their true value lies in luring enemy cav out, peppering enemy inf and serving as decisive flankers. ~;)

Also yes Drisos, I do use 3 h0/1 Cav Arch in my armies. ~;)
Very well put, Master Duck. I very often use more CA than I should (as I'm not as good with them as players like you, Kans, and Sasaki, et. al.) My old "signature" army used 4 H0 CA (+ 4 Msk, 4 YS, 4 NC, or 2 NC 2 HC; the "4444").

I would say that more than two CA are not the best choice for beginning and early intermediate players. They need to be managed carefully, and if they route through your army at the wrong time, they can singlehandly cause you to lose the battle (good players know this and will try and use your CA against you if you're careless ...). They are GREAT for creating flank pressure, playing the "carrot" on a stick, running down routers, and boosting morale (proximity and numbers) behind an infantry line. But they MUST be managed well.

CA with higher Honor than zero or one would be fun, but the cost just doesn't justify their performance when you consider what else you can buy in MP. I use h0 prett much exclusively now, unless I just happen to have 92 koku left on an improvised army.

Puzz3D
02-14-2006, 14:29
H0 CA is a clever choice because they get battlefield upgrades from their shooting kills which makes them more effective in melee. This works out well since they are used as shooters early on, and used in melee later. H0 to H1 is a very easy battlefield upgrade to get. H1 to H2 is harder to get, etc. Each battlefield upgrade increases the unit's melee capability by 40% and boosts its morale. Battlefield upgrades were removed from multiplayer in MTW/VI.

AggonyDuck
02-14-2006, 17:22
Another option Tomi could be the 1.03 Stats, which are quite enjoyable to play with. :2thumbsup:

Just A Girl
02-14-2006, 20:18
We playing STW these days Or some mod for MTW VI?
I dont play the mod cos its not STW.

Please dont turn STW in to a replica of the MTW VI mod.
You can always play the Mod If Its The Mod That you wish to play.

Puzz3D
02-14-2006, 21:38
We playing STW these days Or some mod for MTW VI?
I dont play the mod cos its not STW.
It's v1.02 that's not STW. It's not even close to it. The v1.02 is nothing more than a community mod whose development was cut-off abruptly by a CA imposed deadline. All kinds of stats were changed that never should have been touched, and it wasn't properly playtested because the stat changes continued up to the last day of the deadline. The v1.02 is broken, and everyone who helped develop the stat concurs. The mandate of the player community was to reduce the effectiveness of guns, and the v1.02 beta team failed to do that. About two-thirds of the STW multiplayer community stopped playing because of v1.02.

Just A Girl
02-15-2006, 23:39
I still like STW,
I think its a bit Imature to leave a game becous you didnt like some changes
The game still works even with powerfull muskets.

You can rout muskets with cav.
And from what i gather That was the only real thing they messed up. (Increase musket power)
Seems to me some dont like The invetion of muskets.
Like many did not at the time.
Muskets killed the samurais as they OWNED.
IMO The muskets in game reflect that Correctly.

60 cav would not be able to run straight at 60 musketeers,
Without being totaly decimated.
And IMO,
a voley of 30 shots should kill more than a few Cav who are runing straight in to them,
Being shot at WOULD reduce morrale.
And this is also reflected in the game.

Im sorry its not easier.

Tomisama
02-16-2006, 03:47
It's v1.02 that's not STW.
So the revisions should have stopped at v1.01b?

That patch is still available. Of course it probably means a reinstall, but no big deal.

Yuuki-san, do you think that we might generate more veteran interest in a Shogun revival, if we went back to the 1b revision?

AggonyDuck
02-16-2006, 11:51
I'd believe that 1.03 might be a better choice over 1.01b...:2thumbsup:

Tomisama
02-16-2006, 13:06
I’m sorry Ducky,

You have mentioned it several times now, and I keep meaning to ask you.

(It seems the more I have to do, the less time is available. Even the weather won't cooperate!)

What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?

Kansuke
02-16-2006, 13:48
Howl Tomi,

"What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?"

1.03 is a mod made by Yuuki et al, it mainly reduces musk fire rate (Yuuki knows the most on this topic) and is best played ata 7000koku, there is a stat swapper also, so it make switching between 1.02 and 1.03 easy (few seconds if that).

There used to be links in the forum, cant see them now, but u can download here at the .Org or on Mizu server, they are very small files.

AggonyDuck
02-16-2006, 14:02
I’m sorry Ducky,

You have mentioned it several times now, and I keep meaning to ask you.

(It seems the more I have to do, the less time is available. Even the weather won't cooperate!)

What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?

Well it was a nice alternative stat set made by Yuuki&co. There was a tourney with it about 1½ year ago and it was good fun. It has the fun thing that most units are quite nicely balanced and I remember it being quite cool to play. I personally found it better than 1.02. :2thumbsup:

You can download either of those statswappers over there to get the mod: http://www.mizus.com/Files/k0rgs8gVt/stats.shtml

Puzz3D
02-16-2006, 16:49
Seems to me some dont like The invetion of muskets.
Did you see muskets removed from STWmod for MTW/VI? In fact, the Japanese teppo in STWmod get 1.5 times the kills/volley that muskets got in original STW.

Muskets were never used in Japan at this time. They were Arquebus that were used which were very inaccurate and not very effective at 80 meters, and their reload time was 10 times longer than it is in the game. If you want to play with realistic guns, then increase the reload time to 2.5 minutes.



60 cav would not be able to run straight at 60 musketeers without being totaly decimated.
Wrong. These guns were very inaccurate, and, even if many horses were killed, the samurai on foot would be all over the gunners before they could reload.

Besides, you could reduce the kills/volley in v1.02 by a factor of 2 and 60 muskets firing at close range would still rout cav. The v1.02 is allowing that to happen with only 20 of the 60 firing which cuts the effective reload time by 1/3 where reload times without 3 rank firing are already extremely short.

If the muskets in v1.02 were right, you wouldn't be putting a 4 max limit on them, and you wouldn't be playing at 10k koku.

Just A Girl
02-17-2006, 02:59
It is a game you know.
Cant be perfect. but I still like it.
Its still playable.

And muskets arent as bad as you say IMO.

Just A Girl
02-17-2006, 10:30
How do the crosbow men in MI compare to the muskets then??

Could we replace the muskets with them??
Should be easy enough to do...
Statwize and in battle image wize..
dont really know about morrale and costs and how they balance out though..

So im asking.

Puzz3D
02-17-2006, 16:14
The xbows are only available in the mongol period. They are considerably less effective than guns, and don't have 3 rank rotating fire.

I suggested to keep the arquebus so that you will still have guns in the game. At 7k, they are going to be more effective in routing units than at 10k, but they don't fire at all in rain and have shorter range. Their range is 80 meters. At 7k, muskets are also going to be more effective at routing units, but they are already very good doing that at 10k.

Just A Girl
02-17-2006, 16:30
but that would mean imposing weather restrictions,
And weather is most definatly an integral part of the game...

Puzz3D
02-17-2006, 16:42
Weather is even more important when guns don't shoot at all in rain. This means you have to limit how many guns you take in case it rains. This is a benefit the attacker gets, which helps equalize against the defender's advantage of terrain, because he knows how many guns he has and he decides the weather conditions under which the attack will be made. However, the weather is chosen after the armies have been chosen, so, if the attacker has taken guns and all the weather choices are rain, he doesn't get any advantage.

Just A Girl
02-17-2006, 17:04
But that just means no one will bring any guns to the battle feild.

Puzz3D
02-17-2006, 17:56
But that just means no one will bring any guns to the battle feild.
Many players brought guns to the battlefield in original STW, and they were 1/3 the effectiveness of guns in v1.02 and they didn't shoot in the rain. Usually you didn't see more than 4 muskets in an army, but there was an 8 musket 8 warrior monk army that was used with success.

It's unfortunate that Creative Assembly never told us how to make replays in original STW days eventhough it was possible with the same commandline argument that works in STW/MI.

Just A Girl
02-17-2006, 19:13
i used to play stw origional.
only campaign though, and cant admit that i used alot of muskets.
but I thought the muskets would fire in light rain but not heavy rain.
where as arq's just did not fire in the rain at all.
But i dont remember all that well realy.

Wouldnt just using h0 muskets 4 max rule at 7-10k koku
help?
the money you get back from the 2 honour taken from the muskets although not that spectacular an amount. could help add bonuses to other units. which would help their morrale. which in turn would help rebalance the game,

Prehaps the h0 muskets 4max rule would work at certain koku levels.

what do you imagine would happen?
or at what koku level this would be best implimented. if at all?

AggonyDuck
02-19-2006, 15:14
How about to actually save this tourney we stop arguing over stupid rules/guns and just concentrate on actually playing on rules that people actually prefer to play on?

Sasaki Kojiro
02-20-2006, 06:21
How about to actually save this tourney we stop arguing over stupid rules/guns and just concentrate on actually playing on rules that people actually prefer to play on?

Yes.

Shambles I'd appreciate it if you didn't throw around words like "immature".

Also, Yuuki knows this stuff far better than you. Let's get back on the topic of preferred rules for playing.

Kansuke
02-20-2006, 09:59
Hi,

4 max, no ashi @ 7000 Koku, v1.02.

Attack and defend on a selected map, tie-break, if required, on Ironing Board.

Lets keep it simple.

HiPlnzDrifta
02-20-2006, 10:37
i concur with Kans on 4 max , koku and the maps.... however i do believe personally that most units can be abused in some way and therefore i feel ashigaru should not be excluded...(not that i use them often, once in a blue moon maybe)

however for the sake of simplicity we all have to bite the bullet sooner or later and i'm prepared to go with whatever the tourny organisers decide upon...

Shaka_Khan
02-22-2006, 08:32
How about an 8-max rule with 10,000 koku? I can stop an 8 unit yari or ashigaru rush. I find it fun to chase them when they rout. :2thumbsup:

Shaka_Khan
02-22-2006, 09:21
The earliest WE patch made the game move faster. The patch made the unseen part of the battle map not use up the memory. Or that's how I remembered it.
Unfortunately, new patches created other problems in army balances, and made people leave the community. I remember taking a while to adjust to new strategies whenever a new patch appeared.

Puzz3D
02-22-2006, 18:51
How about an 8-max rule with 10,000 koku? I can stop an 8 unit yari or ashigaru rush. I find it fun to chase them when they rout.
You can't go with 8 max and 10k because 8 musk + 8 YA are practically impossible to beat. The player doesn't rush. He just kills your whole army with his guns set behind the spears. A single 60 man musket can kill 180 men or more in v1.02.

Even with a 4 unit max and no ashi, if you win the shootout with 120 muskets left (equivalent of two 60 man units), you've won the battle. You can achieve this with 4 musk vs 4 musk by 30 seconds of unreturned fire (about 4 volleys) into the enemy's muskets. That will kill about 10 men or so in each enemy musket unit. The enemy muskets will go down quickly once they fall behind by that much in firepower because the difference in firepower will keep increasing as the shootout progresses. The enemy will then be forced to rush into muskets that were increased in power expressly to prevent rushes.

It was unnecessary to increase musket power just to stop rushes because fatigue works against a rusher anyway, so you can beat a rush just by maneuvering and coordinating your units better than the rusher. I did it many times in STW v1.12 which had weak guns. I still preferred to attack in STW v1.12 despite the fatigue disadvantage because, although not the best, I was fairly good at coordinating 16 units.