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View Full Version : A couple (really crazy!) ideas on Successions and Civil Wars



Martok
01-26-2006, 10:21
I have to credit Weebeast for giving me the demented inspiration for this idea..... ~:cheers:



I don't know how people would respond to this but I got bunch of positive replies a while ago. I'd love to continue playing even if my king dies without a heir. Just because a line dies doesn't mean everything becomes non-existing. Let one hi-rank general lead the population to carry on as if it was a civil war and let me play it.

I know this is not a very important thing to put into the game but why not go big?


My response to his post was this:


I like this idea a lot, Weebeast. :bow: There's only thing I would add: When such an event happens (where a general takes over should the first royal line die out), your kingdom/empire should automatically fall into civil war. That way you still suffer a penalty (although hopefully not a fatal one); plus it would be fairly historically accurate as well.


I just now thought of one other thing that could make Civil wars even more interesting--have 3 or more factions fighting for the crown. Now obviously this should only happen if your empire was a *very* good size--say 30 provinces at least--but imagine the wonderful chaos that would ensue! Just imagine 3, 4, or even 5 claimants to the throne! It would be insane, but I just love this idea of everything going to hell in handbasket (where *did* that inane phrase originate, anyway?), and of a superpower suddenly descending into madness and destabilizing an entire continent. ~D Oh, what fun that could be!

Sardo
01-26-2006, 10:28
I've been wanting that for years.
CA took a first step in the right direction with the Western and Eastern Roman Rebels in BI, so who knows?

Trajanus
01-26-2006, 10:47
I like this idea also.

Or perhaps like for the AI factions your faction could reappear (last remaining heir reappears) etc.

Almost like a sub-game. They could offer all sorts of options with this such as building popular support in your original home province, the options are endless.

caio giulio
01-26-2006, 12:35
If a king dies without direct heir (sons) I think the succession must pass to a relative (maybe the husband of the daughter).
In this case it will be possible a civil war (not always!! This will be unrealistic) between .... AHH I don't know how to say it in english... so I'll try with an example

Example: The king: Ferdinand has two sons and three daughters (maria, Giovanna and Elisa). His direct heirs die in battle. When Ferdinand dies it will be possible either a civil war between all the husband of the daughters or the husband of the older daughter becomes king without any wars or two husband can allies!

And it will be possible that a famous and very powerful general can claim the throne...

If the king designed a successor before dying the possibilities of a civil war can become lower. But if it'll do too early the loyalty of the non-successor can become very low until they betray their king..

I hope my message is clear....

Hambut_bulge
01-26-2006, 13:45
Or allow the eldest daughter to inherit in the absence of a male heir, but with the resulting instability arising from other male claimants having to watch a woman do a mans job. And if she's unmarried then we get the tricky task of finding a suitable husband, ie: someone powerful who's prepared to become a mere consort only

caio giulio
01-26-2006, 14:17
And if she's unmarried then we get the tricky task of finding a suitable husband,

Yeah. Maybe with some prince of another nation and making a TRUE ALLIANCE

Sardo
01-26-2006, 15:00
Ruling queens and dynastic bonds between kingdoms, now there are some grand ideas. Perhaps even a personal union between two countries, though that would, game-wise, probably be too easy a way of expanding your power fast.

Still, it's fun to dream while nothing is certain.

Antiochius
01-26-2006, 15:06
This is a very good idea, but i think that they won`t do this. if they made it into the game, it would exist some problems. the greatest would be the balancing. every nation is divided by the civil war into perhabs two, or three families who want to become the king of this nation. that means, there will be three or two new nation which are total independent. That means this civil war faction needs the same what a normal nation needs. Of course, it doesn`t happen every day that the king family dies out, but it could happen every nation. that means the havt to do perhabs 80 nation trees, units, etc. I don`t believe that the develpoers want to do that. The other point is how should the civil wear function? Should every civil war faction first conquer the other faction?

If yes, it would be hard to make it. On the one side you havn`t to attack the other nations, but if they want to use the crisis of your nation and attack you, you have to defend yourself. Do you know that i mean? that would be difficult.
If no, the civil war faction could exist mext to themselves and it will give more independent nations. But i guess that shouldn`t be so.

Finally, i think that there arte to many problems doing this

caio giulio
01-26-2006, 15:20
This is a very good idea, but i think that they won`t do this. if they made it into the game, it would exist some problems. the greatest would be the balancing. every nation is divided by the civil war into perhabs two, or three families who want to become the king of this nation. that means, there will be three or two new nation which are total independent. That means this civil war faction needs the same what a normal nation needs. Of course, it doesn`t happen every day that the king family dies out, but it could happen every nation. that means the havt to do perhabs 80 nation trees, units, etc. I don`t believe that the develpoers want to do that. The other point is how should the civil wear function? Should every civil war faction first conquer the other faction?

If yes, it would be hard to make it. On the one side you havn`t to attack the other nations, but if they want to use the crisis of your nation and attack you, you have to defend yourself. Do you know that i mean? that would be difficult.
If no, the civil war faction could exist mext to themselves and it will give more independent nations. But i guess that shouldn`t be so.

Finally, i think that there arte to many problems doing this
Well you're right. But I was just dreaming.... To do something like that you need at least an extremely Intelligent AI... (to hands the relations between rebel factions-foreign nations, rebel factions-rebel factions...)

ajaxfetish
01-27-2006, 06:02
Another option if you have an underage heir when your king dies would be for your best general to serve as regent until the crown prince comes of age. Meanwhile loyalty could drop really low and any contenders (such as husbands of princesses) could be extra likely to start a civil war and make a bid for the throne.

I think it would be possible to manage the civil war idea, though, especially if it only happened for very large factions with the royal line eliminated. They could set it up so that after a certain number of years the side with the most provinces (or whatever measure is chosen to determine a winner) wins and any others either join them or go rebel.

Ajax

Hambut_bulge
01-27-2006, 13:58
Another option if you have an underage heir when your king dies would be for your best general to serve as regent until the crown prince comes of age. Meanwhile loyalty could drop really low and any contenders (such as husbands of princesses) could be extra likely to start a civil war and make a bid for the throne.

Oh, yes! Forgot about Regent's (or Lord Protector's as they so often seemed to end up styling themselves). Because then there's also the issue of what happens when (or before) the Crown Prince comes of age. What happens if the regent decides he likes being in power a bit too much?

Doubt we'll see any of this though really...

Antiochius
01-27-2006, 19:20
i have perhabs a idea. If the nation has 6 provinces, then two provinces will be loyal and belong to this faction, the other three become independent rebell provinces.

Sir Toma of Spain
01-28-2006, 01:48
i have perhabs a idea. If the nation has 6 provinces, then two provinces will be loyal and belong to this faction, the other three become independent rebell provinces.

What happens to the 6th province then???

Antiochius
01-28-2006, 13:38
oh, i have forgotten this Provinces. She becomes also independent:embarassed:

Mount Suribachi
01-28-2006, 14:09
I definately agree that your Royal Line shouldn't die out like in MTW, however...

If they use the same Family Tree as RTW, you have a much larger family tree than in MTW - lotsa cousins and uncles and great nephews and the like to choose from. Its much harder to kill off a dynasty in RTW because of this, and hopefully MTW2 will keep (and improve further) the RTW family tree.

As for Civil Wars, as I stated in another thread, I don't think there were enough in MTW - with a well managed empire they were nearly non-existant. I would like to see a lot more bids for power from ambitious generals and princes.

Martok
01-28-2006, 17:28
I definately agree that your Royal Line shouldn't die out like in MTW, however...

If they use the same Family Tree as RTW, you have a much larger family tree than in MTW - lotsa cousins and uncles and great nephews and the like to choose from. Its much harder to kill off a dynasty in RTW because of this, and hopefully MTW2 will keep (and improve further) the RTW family tree.

That would be a good point, except that I feel that Rome's family system was broken. I'm really hoping CA doesn't use it at all; but if they are, it at least needs to be completely overhauled. It really sucked always being short on governors and generals in Rome. :furious3: I'm all for mechanisms to keep you from expanding too quickly, but limiting governors and generals to just your family members was the wrong way to do it.



As for Civil Wars, as I stated in another thread, I don't think there were enough in MTW - with a well managed empire they were nearly non-existant. I would like to see a lot more bids for power from ambitious generals and princes.

On this point, I agree with you wholeheartedly! Kingdoms in medieval Europe seemed to rarely be stable for more than 1-2 generations at a time, so it would be nice if Medieval 2 reflected this. You can be the best "empire manager" in the world, but that still won't stop ambitious nobles from making a bid for the throne....

Cowhead418
01-31-2006, 06:26
One time in my Scottish VI campaign I was bored so I decided to assassinate my sub-par king. He had no heirs but I assassinated him anyway. I expected to lose but was delighted in seeing a message pop up telling me that a civil war had erupted with two relatively equal troop sizes. I got a kick-ass king and from that point on my royal line always sprouted out good heirs. It was good fun.:2thumbsup:

sapi
01-31-2006, 08:48
On this point, I agree with you wholeheartedly! Kingdoms in medieval Europe seemed to rarely be stable for more than 1-2 generations at a time, so it would be nice if Medieval 2 reflected this. You can be the best "empire manager" in the world, but that still won't stop ambitious nobles from making a bid for the throne....
This could get frustrating, but it's a good idea overall!

Weebeast
01-31-2006, 11:59
Another option if you have an underage heir when your king dies would be for your best general to serve as regent until the crown prince comes of age. Meanwhile loyalty could drop really low and any contenders (such as husbands of princesses) could be extra likely to start a civil war and make a bid for the throne.
That's what I'm lookin foward to. I don't think it's hard to program as the main ingredient - civil war, can already be used. Just take a look at factions who elect Emperors. It's similar like that 'cept it's temporary. Man, this game would really kick butt if CA decided to put all stuff you've been discussing.

King Yngvar
02-01-2006, 12:31
Or allow the eldest daughter to inherit in the absence of a male heir, but with the resulting instability arising from other male claimants having to watch a woman do a mans job.

That could actually be quite neat, since this could happen in AI kingdoms as well. You could be able to unite your kingdom with that kingdom if both your king and the AI queen is unmarried, or one or both of them are married and choose to divorse their current wife/husband. This should of course give you control of the other kingdom, not the other way around :2thumbsup: