View Full Version : The Next Gen Video Formats
In case you didn't know...
Well, as in the '80s with the likes of Betamax and VHS, HDDVD and Blu-Ray are set to come out relatively soon and with it the 'format wars'. Sony lost out last time (for those of you who have been asleep this past 20 years) so it'll obviously not want to miss out again.
Blue-Ray will be featuring in Sony's next gen console, the ps3, however Microsoft who are backing HDDVD have left as hddvd player out of their 360 console, a blunder?
My mate at school knows more than me about this sorta stuff and he brought out the following points, are they correct/do you agree?
Betamax was a better format
It only lost because the porn industry backed VHS
There's another, less known format, that my come out to be on top.
Nobody gives a c**p about whats in the consoles.
So what do you think we'll be watching our movies on in a couple of years time? Discussion thread for future formats. Also a prediction poll.
For what it's worth, the porn industry is backing Blu-ray, or at least that's what I read on Slashdot. Here's some recent info on Blu-Ray. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060208-6136.html)
I think we'll all be watching DVDs for some time. There are bigger issues than screen resolution -- namely DRM. Evil, naughty DRM. Filthy, troublesome DRM. If you don't know what DRM is, you need to find out, now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management). It's a giant trench filled with sharks with frickin' lasers on their foreaheads, and it's between us and next-gen content.
[edit]
Here's some info on the DRM models being batted about:
Blu-Ray
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Digital_Rights_Management)HD-DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD#Protection_Technology)
HDMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface)
Blodrast
02-13-2006, 18:30
I'm actually not too sure anything will be staying around for too long (like VHS did, for instance). There is huge progress being made in storage media, and I think that's gonna keep things very dynamic; until that comes to a halt, I don't think any formats will have enough time to become standards... my two cents.
as for storage, I couldn't find the link anymore, but I recall reading (last week ?...) about some folks who came up with a prototype hdd of some terabytes, I think...
For what it's worth, the porn industry is backing Blu-ray, or at least that's what I read on Slashdot.
It looks like it`s going to be Blu-ray..
Looks like Gah! is the correct answer. According to Ars Technica, both formats have been delayed. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060214-6182.html) Again. FTA:
The final specification of the Advanced Access Content System (AACS) has been delayed again, meaning that the final specifications needed to produce HD DVD and Blu-ray products still sits off in the undetermined future.
According to a report at Heise online, the members of the AACS licensing authority could not agree on a final specification last week. The hold up must infuriate HD DVD backers, because the last sticking point apparently only applies to the Blu-ray specific BD+ anti-piracy measure. BD+ is part of Blu-ray's "we have more protection than you" approach to appeasing the studios.
Samurai Waki
02-16-2006, 07:14
Probably Blu-Ray but who knows?:spider:
Gawain of Orkeny
02-18-2006, 01:06
Well, as in the '80s with the likes of Betamax and VHS, HDDVD and Blu-Ray are set to come out relatively soon and with it the 'format wars'. Sony lost out last time (for those of you who have been asleep this past 20 years) so it'll obviously not want to miss out again.
The funny part is that Sony invented both. But it felt VHS was inferior and sold the right to Panasonic. Beta does indeed blow VHS away. I could never figure out why the software producers preffered it over Beta. Thats the only reason it won out and we all lost out.
I suggest no one buy either of these formats until they decide on one.
Whichever Chuck Norris endorses wins! :laugh4:
Seriously, why not just both?
I was under the impression Beta lost out as much because Sony was overly stingy with the rights to produce players or recorders or somesuch as it was due to porn. It's not like it was impossible to find porn on beta.
I think you could find porn on Edison's wax cylinders if you looked hard enough.
Gawain of Orkeny
02-18-2006, 18:27
I was under the impression Beta lost out as much because Sony was overly stingy with the rights to produce players or recorders or somesuch as it was due to porn. It's not like it was impossible to find porn on beta
There was plenty of porn on Beta that wasnt the problem. It was regular movies that werent available.
I vote neither, no way I'm touching that crazy next gen DRM-up-the-pooper-so-far-you-can't-get-it-to-work-legitimately stuff
:trytofly: I just can't see that whole non-functional stuff ever getting off the ground.
Probably be watching the DivX (or similar) equivalent with the computationally heavy compression goodness but actually usable.
Ah copy protection. They should just give away poor quality versions for free. Or in Welsh or something. Thene everyone would go out and buy good versions to see what is actually going on.
An update on Blu-Ray: (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060228-6282.html)
Launch date for Blu-ray; Meet the $40 movie.
2/28/2006 10:07:26 AM, by Ken "Caesar" Fisher
Sony Pictures has announced that the Blu-ray revolution will formally kick off on May 23 in North America, targeting this date for the release of the first Blu-ray player from Samsung with flanking support from studios.
The eight Sony movies that will usher in Blu-ray are: 50 First Dates, The Fifth Element, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, The Last Waltz (MGM), Resident Evil Apocalypse and XXX. Three weeks later, on June 13, six additional titles will be released: Kung Fu Hustle, Legends of the Fall, Robocop (MGM), Stealth, Species (MGM), SWAT and Terminator (MGM). Other studios are currently preparing to announce their own launch titles.
"We are primed to ensure that a variety of Blu-ray Disc content is available at retail to support the introduction of the first BD players from Samsung Electronics and Pioneer, as well as the first BD player and compatible VAIO computer from Sony," said Mr. Feingold. "Sony Pictures further intends to provide additional titles to coincide with the launch of BD products from other manufacturers. We're thrilled that the Blu-ray Disc era is about to begin."
The price tag for the Blu-ray era may put a damper on the parade, however. Sony has already announced its wholesale pricing for its own movies, which we believe will put most titles in the $23 to $39 price range at launch. Sony is not setting "suggested retail pricing" on their offerings, leaving the retail sector to look for a sweet spot.
Lion's Gate Films has announced both their plans and retail pricing for the Blu-ray launch. The company is using two price tiers, $29.99 and $39.99, with the latter reserved for either new releases or "classics." At launch, Crash and Lord of War will weigh in at $39.99, with The Punisher and Terminator 2 priced at $29.99. Then sometime in the summer the company will release Reservoir Dogs, Total Recall, Stargate, and Frank Herbert's Dune for $29.99. The Devil's Rejects will be available at $39.99.
The trend here is clear: new(er) releases are coming out at $39.99, while releases from the catalog are $29.99. Competition in the retail space will result in both of these pricing tiers heading south, but when and how much? Consumers are used to seeing $25 price tags on hot, new DVD releases. Will HD be enough to push that well beyond $30 per movie? Or will studios have to lower their expectations—not to mention prices—to vitalize sales. With worldwide DVD sales slowing, Hollywood and friends are hoping that the HD revolution will breathe new life into this critical revenue stream.
An update on Blu-Ray: (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060228-6282.html)
Launch date for Blu-ray; Meet the $40 movie.
2/28/2006 10:07:26 AM, by Ken "Caesar" Fisher
Sony Pictures has announced that the Blu-ray revolution will formally kick off on May 23 in North America, targeting this date for the release of the first Blu-ray player from Samsung with flanking support from studios.
The eight Sony movies that will usher in Blu-ray are: 50 First Dates, The Fifth Element, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, The Last Waltz (MGM), Resident Evil Apocalypse and XXX. Three weeks later, on June 13, six additional titles will be released: Kung Fu Hustle, Legends of the Fall, Robocop (MGM), Stealth, Species (MGM), SWAT and Terminator (MGM). Other studios are currently preparing to announce their own launch titles.
"We are primed to ensure that a variety of Blu-ray Disc content is available at retail to support the introduction of the first BD players from Samsung Electronics and Pioneer, as well as the first BD player and compatible VAIO computer from Sony," said Mr. Feingold. "Sony Pictures further intends to provide additional titles to coincide with the launch of BD products from other manufacturers. We're thrilled that the Blu-ray Disc era is about to begin."
The price tag for the Blu-ray era may put a damper on the parade, however. Sony has already announced its wholesale pricing for its own movies, which we believe will put most titles in the $23 to $39 price range at launch. Sony is not setting "suggested retail pricing" on their offerings, leaving the retail sector to look for a sweet spot.
Lion's Gate Films has announced both their plans and retail pricing for the Blu-ray launch. The company is using two price tiers, $29.99 and $39.99, with the latter reserved for either new releases or "classics." At launch, Crash and Lord of War will weigh in at $39.99, with The Punisher and Terminator 2 priced at $29.99. Then sometime in the summer the company will release Reservoir Dogs, Total Recall, Stargate, and Frank Herbert's Dune for $29.99. The Devil's Rejects will be available at $39.99.
The trend here is clear: new(er) releases are coming out at $39.99, while releases from the catalog are $29.99. Competition in the retail space will result in both of these pricing tiers heading south, but when and how much? Consumers are used to seeing $25 price tags on hot, new DVD releases. Will HD be enough to push that well beyond $30 per movie? Or will studios have to lower their expectations—not to mention prices—to vitalize sales. With worldwide DVD sales slowing, Hollywood and friends are hoping that the HD revolution will breathe new life into this critical revenue stream. So, this next gen format will be of a video quality beyond what the vast majority of any of us will be able to make any use of, it will have draconian DRM and will cost substantially more than already expensive current gen DVDs...... So, where do I sign up?:dizzy2:
I really couldnt be less interested in any of these. My current TV is standard def, tube screen, with a composite input- so it isnt even near taking full advantage of current gen DVDs. I should buy an expensive new player, why?
The only interest I have in new discs is as recordable media for data storage, since a standard DVD doesnt get it done in terms of capacity.
Blue ray is sure to win the format war; it has better backing.
A little more info coming to light. First off, Sony is declaring that it won't play the downsampling card on Blu-Ray. Yet. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060314-6377.html)
Sony decides against downsampling on analog HDTV
3/14/2006 11:15:28 AM, by Eric Bangeman
With the imminent war over which format will be the successor to the much-loved DVD about to get underway, Sony is throwing a bone to owners of some older HDTVs. At a technical briefing last week, Sony said that it will not use the Image Constraint Token to downsample the video output on analog HDTVs.
The Image Constraint Token is part of the AACS (Advanced Access Content System) used in both next-generation optical formats. A couple of months ago, we reported that ICT would be used in both Blu-ray and HD DVD to downsample video from its 1920x1080 glory to a relatively crufty 960x540 if the player detected that it was hooked up to an analog HD display or any other display lacking an HDMI input. We also noted that use of ICT would be left up to the individual studios, rather than being made a mandatory part of the AACS spec.
Sony is the first studio to lay out its plans for how owners of older, analog-only HD sets would be able to watch Blu-ray content. According to Sony Pictures Home Entertainment Senior VP Don Eklund, none of Sony's Blu-ray releases for the "foreseeable future" will use ICT to force downsampling.
"We have no plan to implement the Image Constraint Token. All of Sony's titles will come out of the analog output at full definition"
Eklund noted that while Sony is obviously concerned about piracy, it sees analog signals as a relatively small concern. Instead, Sony is banking on the AACS to keep the digital signal from being "intercepted" and preventing HD copies of its movies from turning up on Torrent sites and Usenet.
The first Blu-ray player, a US$1,000 device from Samsung, will be available in North America starting May 23. Sony Pictures will have eight titles available at launch, including 50 First Dates, The Fifth Element, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, The Last Waltz (MGM), Resident Evil Apocalypse and XXX. There will be another seven titles available by mid-June, and Sony anticipates having around 100 titles available by the holiday shopping season. Some of those will be new titles, released at the same time as their old-school DVD counterparts.
Sony's decision to not use the Image Constraint Token for the time being is meant to encourage the adoption of Blu-ray players. Launching a new product that would leave the thousands of analog HDTV owners out in the standard-definition cold could have proven to be a nightmare for Sony and the Blu-ray spec in general. Reports that "Blu-ray discs don't look right on my HDTV" could result in consumers' switching allegiances to the competing HD DVD standard or postponing purchases of next-generation optical players altogether.
Oh, and if the possibility of making analog, high-definition copies from Blu-ray discs is of such small concern, then why do we need to plug the analog hole?
And secondly, it looks as though HD-DVD will launch with no movies. None. Nada. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060314-6380.html)
HD DVD to launch without any movies
3/14/2006 1:07:04 PM, by Nate Anderson
Despite the recent good news that Disney is considering the format, HD DVD backers have had little encouraging news recently. That trend continues with today's announcement that Warner Home Video will not be releasing HD DVD movies on March 28, after all. This means that early adopters will have to wait until sometime in April to get their hands on U2's Rattle and Hum documentary, the first title to be released in the new format.
This is not encouraging news for Toshiba, one of the primary backers of the HD DVD specification. Two Toshiba players are set to launch later this month, but with Warner's ship date slipping, the players will initially launch without any available titles. Movies should appear within several weeks of the launch, but it's not yet clear how much they will cost. While we already have indications that Blu-ray disc pricing will be in the US$23-39 range, no HD DVD backer has yet set a firm number. Wal-Mart was initially taking orders for HD DVD films at US$25.48 a pop (based on a US$29.99 list price), but a Warner representative said that the studio has not yet decided if this is accurate.
No matter how you spin it, this is not the way to make a strong product launch. Warner will be releasing movies late, and other studios will be even further behind. In addition, Toshiba is currently the only manufacturer of the players, which does not suggest strong backing from consumer electronics manufacturers. (LG has recently agreed to build HD DVD players as well, but nothing will be available for some time). Rumors also have it that only 10,000 machines will be available at launch, a number which suggests that Toshiba's players will be the nichest of niche commodities for a while.
So, is HD DVD doomed even before launch? Of course not. Despite a shaky start, the format has the formidable backing of Microsoft, which is considering plans to release an add-on player for the Xbox 360. HD DVD also has the advantage of beating its rival to market by about two months, and if the rumors of PS3 delays are true, it may have nine months to a year in which to establish itself before Blu-ray drives begin appearing en masse in Sony's new game console. On the other hand, if the HD DVD launch is underwhelming and Sony somehow manages to get millions of PS3s on store shelves by Christmas, the format war could be over sooner than we once thought.
Looks like the PS3 is being delayed in Japan until November, mainly over Blu-Ray copy protection issues. Sony may miss the Christmas season. To quote the great philosopher Nelson Muntz, "Ha Ha".
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148763
Looks like the PS3 is being delayed in Japan until November, mainly over Blu-Ray copy protection issues. Sony may miss the Christmas season. To quote the great philosopher Nelson Muntz, "Ha Ha".It looks like this is Nintendo's console generation to lose. :2thumbsup:
A slightly more informative article on the PS3 from CNN:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/15/news/international/sony_ps3.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes
Looks like Sony will do a simultaneous release in Japan, NA, and Europe in November, so they will make it for Christmas.
If it comes down to a decision on DRM vs a Christmas release, I wonder which one Sony would go for?
A look at the problems with HD-DVD, BluRay, and everything connected to them: (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2006/tc20060327_546762.htm?campaign_id=bier_tc)
Next-Gen DVDs' Blurry Picture
The battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD was already tricky for consumers. But new content protection may mean buyers get even less than they might have hoped
After years of waiting, the new era of high-definition home theater has finally arrived. In April, Toshiba (TOSBF ) plans to introduce HD-DVD, its high-definition successor to the DVD player, two months ahead of rival consumer-electronics companies who plan to sell a competing format called Blu-ray Disc.
Electronics makers hope the new gear will keep sales in the $120 billion industry humming, while Hollywood hopes the lure of interactive features and crystal-clear pictures five times the resolution of current DVDs will jump-start slumping home-video sales.
"IT'S CRAZY." Here's the problem: Both camps are shooting themselves in the foot before they get to the starting line. Consumers already were faced with the prospect of mass confusion, thanks to two next-generation DVD formats, whose disks do not work in each other's machines but look essentially the same. Remember Betamax versus VHS? At least then you could tell one tape from the other.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Turns out, most of the 20 million high-definition TVs sold over the past three years aren't capable of displaying the disks in their full resolution. Worse, at least one major studio intends to downgrade the picture even more unless consumers hook their players up through a special, pricey cable aimed at preventing piracy.
"It's crazy," says chief analyst Richard Doherty of consumer-research firm Envisioneering. "The sticker on your new player promises the equivalent of a high-performance car, but the fine print says you may be buying an Edsel instead."
OPTING OUT. The new content-protection scheme would be the first time any consumer electronics purchaser -- not just those who try to break copyright laws -- could be penalized. In this case, even if you have a perfectly equipped TV, content providers retain the right to automatically downgrade the picture quality because of piracy concerns. Current DVD releases like Batman Begins and Walk The Line include software to prevent unauthorized duplication, but still play normally.
New software included on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD releases, however, will automatically slash the image, making it only marginally better than current DVDs, unless consumers have a relatively new connector and cable called HDMI to hook up players to their televisions. Only one in 20 HD sets sold to early adopters over the past few years has the right version of the connector. Only 15% of new sets sold this year will include it, and deliver the full 1080 resolution capable of showing such detail.
Sony execs say a majority of Blu-ray content, at least initially, will play at the highest resolution possible on a consumer’s HDTV, regardless of how the player is hooked up. Four major studios -- Sony Pictures (SNE ), 20th Century Fox (NWS ), Disney (DIS ), and Paramount (VIA ) say they initially will not use the new copy protection on their releases. Universal execs told BusinessWeek on Mar. 21 that they, too, will forego the protection. Execs at Warner Brothers declined to comment, but sources with knowledge of the studio's plans say "at least some" of the 20 HD-DVD releases planned through April will use the software. "What do you have then? A very expensive DVD player," says Sony Senior Vice-President Tim Baxter.
To make matters more confusing, Sony and other consumer-electronics companies are adding features to the next-generation players that then may "upconvert" -- boost the image quality -- so the same disk may look vastly different, depending on which machine you purchase and the size of the TV (see BW Online, 3/27/06, "Sony's Renaissance Geek"). Experts say both of the new formats shine on sets 50 inches or larger.
The confusion may be just enough for consumers to say good night, and good luck. Already, a growing number of so-called technology influencers and Web sites are recommending sitting out the first round of the new DVD wars.
Many believe the best bet for either format to gain acceptance now lies with next-generation game consoles. Sony plans a November worldwide release of its new PlayStation 3, which will include a Blu-ray player. Execs at Sony hope by then that enough new HD sets will be sold, with the right connectors, to make the player worthwhile. And Microsoft (MSFT ) has said it may add an HD-DVD player to its Xbox 360 in coming months. Until then, the crystal ball for crystal-clear movies remains fuzzy.
It's simple, no one will buy the poor quality discs, the company realises, their accountants force them to get rid of it. Failing that, their shareholders force them to get rid of it.
The confusion may be just enough for consumers to say good night, and good luck. Already, a growing number of so-called technology influencers and Web sites are recommending sitting out the first round of the new DVD wars.Bingo. Which is why Im not at all interested in either format at this point.
Yah, I officially opt out.
New developments on this front. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html) Key quote:
One of the most controversial aspects of these next-generation products is something called the Image Constraint Token (ICT), a security "feature" that allows studios to force-downgrade video quality on players that lack a special video output that was designed to thwart piracy. This "HDMI" connector standard is part of a "protected pathway" for video that was meant to combat piracy by making it impossible for pirates to tap into high-definition video output and press "Record," as it were. Many fear, however, that the only success HDMI will have is in making honest users miserable, inasmuch as consumers could be left with a product that plays at low quality or not at all if HDMI is not present on one's player or TV.
The conundrum isn't apparently lost on the consumer electronics industry or Hollywood. According to German-language Spiegel Online, there is reportedly a behind-the-scenes, unofficial agreement between Hollywood and some consumer electronics manufacturers, including Microsoft and Sony, not to use ICT until 2010, or possibly even 2012. Without providing more details, the report suggests that Hollywood isn't exactly happy with the situation, and could very well renege on the agreement, such that it is. But the agreement is there nonetheless, presumably to help the industry transition to HDMI. This could explain why the very same studios that pushed for HDMI and ICT have recently announced that they would not use it for the time being.
ZombieFriedNuts
05-22-2006, 17:09
Why, why do they have to compete with different ones, why don’t they make one format and try to make it better between them, why can’t everybody just get along WHY!
There's an amusing editorial written thiw week in audioholics.com, which I recommend heartily.
10 Reasons Why High Definition DVD Formats Have Already Failed (http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10reasonsHDDVDsfailed.php)
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