Medieval: Total Realism Mod Team's Update Thread [Archive]

3.14

03-01-2006, 21:34

Ok anyway so after a few little problems, here we are again. This will apparently be the new MTR thread. From now on, we'd appreciate your input in this place.

So here are not one but two concept drawings. The first one is an early cataphract unit made by kataphraktoi and the second one is a ghulam cavalry rider made by wraithdt. Once again, it is needless to mention that all the concept arts are indeed only concepts and that those units may or may not be included in the final unit list.

Enjoy.

https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1066kat8ok.jpg

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghulamcavalry0rh.jpg

Orda Khan

03-02-2006, 17:53

Those two images look very good indeed

.......Orda

econ21

03-02-2006, 18:28

Polite notice: bashing CA, RTW, mods and mod teams are all unacceptable in this forum. For example, saying "X sucks" where X is RTW, a mod or a designer will lead to warning points.

Constructive criticism is ok, but everyone needs to be particularly courteous if you engage in this as you are talking about people's work and people naturally feel strongly about the fruits of their own labour.

Please remember that this is a forum for friendly or at least polite discussion. ~:grouphug:

DensterNY

03-02-2006, 18:46

Well, I just thought I'd say Thanks a lot guys for all of your efforts now and the likely dozens, if not hundreds, of collective hours that will be needed to make your new MTR2 mod.

Also, your concept art is great from all that I've seen so far, it'd be interesting to see how you guys play around with some of the changes introduced by CA.

For instance, they've mentioned that now when units are fighting you will see different animations and not just everyone taking the same sword stroke, etc... plus, when a unit kills someone they get a special death stroke/kill combination which will be awesome.

Gtafanboy

03-02-2006, 19:23

Keba

03-02-2006, 19:45

Gtafanboy

03-02-2006, 22:51

Please note that the team making Medieval: Total Realism is not the team making Rome: Total Realism. Those are two different teams, the name simply builds upon the tradition established by the RTR mod.

There is no obligation to play RTR or any other mod for that matter, if you are happy with the unmodded Rome: Total War. Most of the people that frequent these forums do care for historical accuracy, and consider a complete historical reproduction of a certain historical period to be fun.
I know i'm not obligated to play it, but I don't think everyone should praise it so much. And I know people want historical accuracy, but I think gameplay is a little more important to the game t hen seeing if rome was split into 3 factions or not. Thank god it is not the same team though.

paullus

03-03-2006, 00:23

but I don't think everyone should praise it so much.

Bud, thanks for telling the rest of us what we should or should not do. If you don't like a mod, just ignore it. There's no logical reason for you to be upset that people do like it, nor does your dislike justify hijacking a thread.

So to return from the tangent, I like how you are incorporating the unit variability options into the concept art, with the alternate armor and accourtrements.

3.14

03-03-2006, 00:56

I didn't think RTR was that good. It sacrificed gameplay for Historical Accuracy. It does, you'll try to defend it but you'll lose in the end. Who cares about historical accuracy when you get sub par gameplay?

Well I don't know who cares... maybe the countless thousands of people who downloaded it ? Maybe they care...

There will be another concept art posted soon, stay tuned.

econ21

03-03-2006, 01:02

There's no logical reason for you to be upset that people do like it, nor does your dislike justify hijacking a thread.

I agree. All further criticism of Rome Total Realism will be regarded as off-topic in this thread and deleted.

NagatsukaShumi

03-03-2006, 12:13

I entirely agree, negative opinions on a modification that doesn't even exist yet is a bit premature and unfair, I would feel the same if you posted this in "my" thread too.

The concept art is top notch guys, very good quality.

Gtafanboy

03-03-2006, 18:27

I agree. All further criticism of Rome Total Realism will be regarded as off-topic in this thread and deleted.
One last post(might get deleted but oh well) if this is a Medieval Total REALISM mod, then it is the same thing as a Rome Total REALISM mod. REALISM. Same exact thing. Of course i'm going to compare it to the other version. It is the same thing.

econ21

03-03-2006, 19:07

One last post...

Thanks, I'm going to hold you to that. You've made your opinion clear. This mod is probably not going to be for you. You can devote your energies to other threads and let the MTR team use this one to discuss their work with people who want to play it.

Of course i'm going to compare it to the other version.

Fair enough, if the team and the philosophy are similar, a comparison may be legitimate. I just don't see the point of simply knocking a mod, let alone a prospective mod. Debating whether a specific proposed design feature will enhance realism or gameplay can be constructive. But blanket negative judgements - effectively just saying "I won't like it" - are neither here nor there.

I must declare a bias here - I love Rome Total Realism (and EB). Making the combat more realistic made the gameplay in the battles better, IMO. This was partly because they lasted longer and partly because the different arms were better balanced (cav was less uber). The strategic level was also more challenging, as it was harder to blitz and several non-Roman/non-Egyptian factions got a boost. RTW without those mods was a 6/10 at most for me; with them it was a 9/10 or higher.

We don't know how M2TW will turn out, but given that it is based on the RTW engine and given that we know CA's priorities are not creating a historical wargame, it is a fair bet a realism mod will enhance M2TW for people with the appropriate tilt.

And I'm sorry, as I said, I am not going to allow further criticism of RTR in this thread. This thread has a clear function and it would be inhospitable to allow it to be hijacked it further.

3.14

03-03-2006, 21:45

Gtafanboy, you don't seem to understand what's going on really.

I'll admit that our objective is the same (creating a realistim mod), but you can hardly compare the two mods (once MTR will be released). In fact, I'd be curious to know you'd compare them on what basis. Oh and by the way, if you want an improved gameplay, just mod it yourself. It's not that hard to only tweak the unit stats. Anyone can do it. On the other hand, not anyone can model, skin, code too well and that where we come into play. We have a team made of extremely talented people who will help make this game more realistic with new skins, models, recruitment systems, maybe scripts, etc. And this is something that the common "fan" can't do by himself.

Finally, if you feel like you will not like Medieval Total Realism, maybe you should stick to GTA. If you have any constructive criticism, go ahead and tell us. But the only thing you've done so far is stating your opinion. So you're going in circles. So if you please, stop wasting our and your time.

Have a nice day,

Ach!

3.14

03-03-2006, 21:49

Sighs.. where the hell is the edit button around here ? I can't even edit my typos. :(

Kraxis

03-03-2006, 23:36

I must declare a bias here - I love Rome Total Realism (and EB). Making the combat more realistic made the gameplay in the battles better, IMO. This was partly because they lasted longer and partly because the different arms were better balanced (cav was less uber). The strategic level was also more challenging, as it was harder to blitz and several non-Roman/non-Egyptian factions got a boost. RTW without those mods was a 6/10 at most for me; with them it was a 9/10 or higher.
See, while I don't agree with Simon about RTR, I don't come here and let them hear how much I disliked their work and how bad it would be for another group to try to emulate that work with M2. I just can't be bothered as I know it won't have an impact on me (because I will most likely not play it).

That is how you should behave. IGNORE IT! It is their time and their game!
By coming here and complaining you are actively seeking out stuf you don't like. Do you also crash parties you don't want to go to? Do you deliberately sit and watch programs you don't want to, just to get annoyed?

The more you stalk around like this the more you will be percieved as a troll, and that is not good (unless you are one of course).
Now let the issue rest!

Btw, while RTR never fulfilled my tastes I could understand the effort and the quality of the job. And that I respect the crew for.

hellenes

03-04-2006, 00:53

While seconding all the above reasonable comments of a mature and sane discussion Ill add my 2 cents:

IMO RTW had SERIOUS accuracy and immersion flaws. For me when the LOOK of the game is concerned Im 100% for historical accuracy. NO compromises.
Youll ask "Why?". Well because contrary to CA's position the LOOK of the game has NOTHING to do with functions aka GAMEPLAY. No matter if I change all the units' skins and models to LOTR units if their stats and function remains intact NOTHING changed in GAMEPLAY.
Gameplay =/= "C00ln3z" no matter how much some fantasy fanboys would like one to believe.
However when one steps in the field of TRUE functional gameplay it will take priority over EVERYTHING.
A good example is the siegefest of the original RTR. It was a gameplay descision that kept me from playing the mod (well the metropolis mod changed that) and Signifier One at the TWC summed it in a perfect way:

"The problem with the argument that "Alexander had 50 sieges" is that most of those sieges took days, or weeks at most. Even the most difficult siege Alexander ever had to perform, that of Tyre, only took 9 months or in game terms, TWO TURNS! So if you were Alexander, you could do all those countless sieges and STILL conquer the world in 13 years. What can you do here in 26 turns? Just start expanding? Besieging ANY city will take two turns, one for the siege equipment and one for the actual assault. So that's why Alexander's 50 sieges didn't take him 230 years to perform, and that's why if you attempt to replicate his feat, it will be you not him who ends up dying before completing the conquest.

Nor does decreasing the number of provinces or cities necessarily somehow means a decrease in accuracy. A siege of one big city for two-three turns could be an abstraction for besieging all of the major cities in the area, each taking maybe a few months. So there's no loss of accuracy here, if you take into consideration the principle of abstraction. I think it's a big mistake to try to make ONE element of the game just as it was, and ignore the fact that other elements (# of cities conquerable by one army per turn, rate of movement per turn, taking of cities without siege) cannot be modified, therefore turning something like Alexander's conquest of the world from a campaign of excitement and constant change into a campaign of endless routine."

The above is a PURE example of gameplay taking priority over Realism. For all the rest Realism is the king.

Hellenes

3.14

03-04-2006, 01:47

Hi everyone. I was in a good mood today and so I thought that it was time to reaveal another concept drawing. :D Once again, Wraithdt made an outstanding drawing, this time of a varangian guard unit. Even two varangian guard units.

Enjoy.

There's another little thing I'd like to add. From now on, kataphraktoi will be posting the previews. He'll be handling PR (and is also a concept artist) for MTR.

https://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=varangianguard4om.jpg

dracosean

03-04-2006, 02:11

another good artwork that you have brought us.

paullus

03-04-2006, 02:43

I have a special place in my heart for the varangians. Don't have a clue how they should appear, though, but what you have looks reasonable.

I know its way early, but: any chance we can get the at-rest position, or perhaps even walking, to be with the axes on resting against one shoulder (Byzantine sources often spoke of them as the soldiers resting axes on their shoulders, etc), and I think representing that in game would be pretty cool.

3.14

03-04-2006, 03:00

It is indeed early. And we can't answer that as of yet. We'll have to wait to see what the game has to offer in terms of possibilities of that sort. We can still hope.

wraithdt

03-04-2006, 03:49

hey all!

I hope you guys approve of my rendition of the Varagian Guards; they are one of my favourite units too and I tried my best to depict them as historically as possible while not making too boring at the same time. Stay tuned for more sketches from me and the rest of the concept art team. ~:cheers:

(ps. I'll keep your suggestion in mind paullus.)

paullus

03-04-2006, 07:32

Thanks! And yeah, I don't really know that there's anything consistent in Byzantine texts or artistic depictions of the Varangians' equipment except for the two-handed (some say two-bladed) axe.

EDIT: however, I do wonder where the c. 1230 came from, as there may have only been a couple hundred Varangians at that time, serving in almost exclusively in court capacity.

Casmin

03-07-2006, 09:18

EDIT: however, I do wonder where the c. 1230 came from, as there may have only been a couple hundred Varangians at that time, serving in almost exclusively in court capacity.

By 1230 I believe the Varangians were composed mostly of English troops.

Trajanus

03-08-2006, 08:24

absolutely stunning Varangians Wraithdt keep the good work coming guys.

Keep the good work coming. ~:)

kataphraktoi

03-08-2006, 15:15

Hey, Kataphraktoi, I was wondering if you were going to include the Georgians in MTR. I mean, they are like the best, strongest and couragest soldiers in the Medieval period that no one could stop. They also have rich, stable and strong state where the Silk Road passes. Frankly, I think you should include them in because you have been trounced by my Georgian compatriots who have called you a child and say that your facts are wrong in the debate. When they say your facts are wrong, it is the truth, they don't need to provide evidence. Their word is good enough. If you don't include them in MTR Kataphraktoi, I think your historical unaccurate and MTR would suck because Georgians are not in it because they are really good warriors.

Lol!!

No, my account was not hacked into. I'm just arguing against myself as a Georgian.

wraithdt

03-08-2006, 17:05

WTF Kata??????? You're weird............:laugh4:

3.14

03-08-2006, 17:45

Bah, seriously... if one ever pushes so hard to include a faction in our list, it's because one's afraid that said faction isn't important enough in which case we'll most likely stick with one's fears and we most likely won't include said faction. :D Oh unless we have a very good reason to.

DensterNY

03-08-2006, 18:08

Any possibility that one of your concept artists have played around with the image for the Kataphraktoi units?

If so, can we get a little taste? Man, I think I'm looking forward to MTW2 partially because of the units available to the Byzantine empire. C'mon the concept of the kataphraktoi are irresistable - heavily armor the rider and horse - not only making them as indestructible as a medieval unit can be but make them so heavy that when they impact an enemy unit they might as well have been hit by a battering ram.

One unit that I hope somehow doesn't make the cut are the Naptha throwers whom I'm never seen used effectively to kill the enemy without also blowing up friendly units.

kataphraktoi

03-11-2006, 04:40

Tonight Im posting two versions of the Klibanophori.

I also have sketches of other Byzantines Heavies.

kataphraktoi

03-11-2006, 13:47

https://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6334/klibanophoriversiona4ve.th.jpg (https://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversiona4ve.jpg)

https://img58.imageshack.us/img58/7230/klibanophoriversionb3kj.th.jpg (https://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversionb3kj.jpg)

Two versions of the Klibanophori. Enjoy. These are only concepts, revision is always possible.

Version A was Wraithdt's idea, he gave me a CHinese Burn before I agreed to do version A.

In reply to Denster, this is a concept in an old sketchbook of a possible Kataphraktoi. This wears a padded coat underneath his mail lorica. Even though its labelled Thematic, it should be Tagmatic

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4928/tagmaticthematickat3rv.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tagmaticthematickat3rv.jpg)

x-dANGEr

03-11-2006, 14:31

Fabulous works. Thanks for all the effort you put in this. I haven't played RTR yet, because I don't how to install it (Too many links..), but I surely will try harder too after these works in here.

I was wondering, do you acutally paint those by your hands using a pencil?

kataphraktoi

03-11-2006, 16:11

pencil. Wraithdt uses both pencil and tablet...lucky guy him....

x-dANGEr

03-11-2006, 21:32

Wow, you are not human 0-o (Very nice work, I can't draw a table with a pencil :$ )

dracosean

03-11-2006, 23:49

wow keep up the good artwork

kataphraktoi

03-12-2006, 15:06

Thanks for the heads up, we got a reserve of more concepts for next week...

Keep ur eyes peeled and open.

But if I'm in a generous mood, I could post concepts sooner than expected.

DensterNY

03-13-2006, 16:00

I was at the Museum of Natural History yesterday and they had some armor and weaponry on display from the Medieval period that I would like to have taken pictures and shared but unfortunately they're most rusted and severely worn.

Man, I know all of this preliminary work is necessary to get a head start on this game but damnit I'm getting antsy waiting for MTW2 to be done...

I can almost smell the burning pitch of torches, feel the blood soaked ground beneath my feet, hear the screams of men fighting for their lives on the field, taste the fear of my enemies and see the ambitions of men on sword edges and the point of spears.

This is total war... sound the horns and unleash Hell.

Orda Khan

03-15-2006, 15:53

Do you have a list of factions compiled yet? I am compiling some Mongol unit sketches that you may want to consider if you plan to include them.

BTW, what is this 'tablet' you mention? I am an old pencil or pen guy myself

......Orda

kataphraktoi

03-15-2006, 17:26

No, we haven't compiled factions yet.

But we are certain Mongols will be in it, we can't have a medieval mod without them! It just won't be total war without them! lol!

Ask wraithdt about the tablet. He can explain better.

kataphraktoi

03-17-2006, 15:04

https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1464/futtawaprev5yn.th.jpg (https://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=futtawaprev5yn.jpg)

Futtuwa Infantry

Pomerium

03-17-2006, 15:17

pencil. Wraithdt uses both pencil and tablet...lucky guy him....
And I bet its a sharp pencil too! very nice work

kataphraktoi

03-18-2006, 14:26

kataphraktoi

03-20-2006, 02:34

Wraithdt, Madtao and I are now taking requests for concepts people want to see posted. Its going to be a monthly thing because both of us have lives as well (lol) and its in addition to the concepts we are currently working on.

So here are the conditions for requesting a concept:

1) You may not spam us with requests!! one is enough!
2) You must provide high quality information about the unit so that we know you're no pulling our leg :laugh4: - peasant with nun-chukas
3) The information that is relevant for the requested units i) historical background ii) weapons iii) armour iv) proper names of unit
4) Make it concise and not too long. Our eyes can only take so much and no essays!!!! :laugh4:

Other than that, we're looking forward to your requests.

Wraithdt, Madtao and I will pick one request each from the request that provides the best info. And remember, its a concept, it may or may not be in the final mod.

dracosean

03-20-2006, 04:18

I want to see a Teutonic Knight on a horse, the weapon can be either a sword or lance. for the historical evidance and other info i found this site http://historymedren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=historymedren&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fthe-orb.net%2Fencyclop%2Freligion%2Fmonastic%2Fopsahl1.html

kataphraktoi

03-20-2006, 14:52

Err....

Information has to be posted. Links are fine, but guys like us just can't go through every link people post when they request a concept.

So, it would be nice if the information was concised and presented in the format we requested.

kataphraktoi

03-24-2006, 17:15

[img=https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8800/turcopole2jp.th.jpg] (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turcopole2jp.jpg)

Turcopole

Horse Archers from mixed ethnic pedigrees. Its a title used by Crusaders and Byzantines.

kataphraktoi

03-29-2006, 14:47

Concept Art Unit:
Tagmatic Cavalryman of the Excubitores School

This Excubitores cavalryman belongs to the second most senior Tagmatic school after the senior Scholae. They are mainly elite heavy cavalry units formed to guard the EMperor and also to form a professional and instant nuclues of any Byzantine army.

This Excubitores cavalry has access to the finest equipment in the Imperial arsenal seeing as he is directly equipped by the central government and moreover, expected to stay alive to guard the Emperor!

He wears a high quality lamellar cuirass which extends just over the waist and is lined decorated Pteruges with gold studs. Underneath is a thick padded Bambakion worn under the lamellar cuirass. Underneath it is also a mail lorica to add another layer of protection. His helmet betrays a strong Central Asian influence and is decorated with psuedo-Arabic patterns. His legs and arms are protected by the standard panoply of greaves known as the Manikelia or Cheiropsella for the arms and Podopsella or Chalkotouba for the legs.

As a shield, he carries the common kite shaped shield type with a bronze shield boss in the middle.

Tagmatic units like him were well lavished by the Emperor with silk garments and such. As illustrated, he is well attired with a highly decorated patterned pair of pants underneath a gilded tunic. Over his shoulder is a cape lined with pearl/gold studs.

John Haldon's opinion is that the composite horse archer/lancer is something of a myth in later Byzantine armies. However, he indicates that it is a myth in regards to the idea that is it what Byzantine cavalrymen were generally like. It is more likely that particular units were able to be doubly-armed, especially, elite units. Even then, they are not trained to be composite archer/lancers.

This particular Excubitore was either recruited from several sources:
- Exceptionally brave men
- Sons of nobles/aristocrats

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg

kataphraktoi

04-05-2006, 06:41

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Norman_Knight.jpg

Last concept for awhile, we're taking a break.

Duke John

04-05-2006, 08:08

I hope your modellers have got the talent to do that drawing justice. It makes me wonder even more why CA thinks that it needs to come up with fantasy designs to make the units look good.

econ21

04-05-2006, 14:05

Beautiful drawings, kataphraktoi.:bow:

Kraxis

04-05-2006, 15:18

I hope your modellers have got the talent to do that drawing justice. It makes me wonder even more why CA thinks that it needs to come up with fantasy designs to make the units look good.
:yes:

Those that were (historically, not in RTW or similar), are more than cool enough. As I have said, I can understand why certain units were included, despite effectively they sholdn't really have been in RTW. But that doesn't mean I don't want the rest of the units to be good representations.

Kata, those drawings are absolutely beautiful. Nice work on horse and life of the drawings.
Let me guess, that first Norman Knight is taken from Medieval Italian Armies from Osprey? He sure looks like one of them.
The wierd guy next door is my favourite. He is cool mix of east and west to an extent. Perfect blend of his geographical position.

kataphraktoi

04-05-2006, 16:12

Lol, the Norman knight is not mine, its Wraithdt's, anything that looks render is absolutely his.

Next time I'LL put the name of the artist next to the concept lol. My bad.

No one is interested in pitching forward ideas for what they want to see as the next concept..hmm oh well.

kataphraktoi

04-05-2006, 16:39

Theres been something on my mind for awhile...

Drawing concepts is fun and all that, but when it comes to creating the Medieval period in all its glory, we need modellers, concept artists and programmers!!

We don't just want talented fans of the Medieval period who have skills, but people who are proactive and passionate in giving an input into the modding process of discussion and debate. After all, Medieval: Total Realism doesn't just belong to the team, but the fans and the fans who are part of the MTR team too!

PM

Orda Khan

04-15-2006, 16:07

Kataphraktoi,
Here are a couple of Mongol Heavy Cavalryman versions if you are interested
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3394/mongol17ef.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol17ef.jpg)
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7224/mongol43sx.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol43sx.jpg)
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/954/mongol31yc.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol31yc.jpg)

........Orda

wraithdt

04-15-2006, 17:50

Thanks Orda.....they're are great. Did you draw these yourself?:2thumbsup:

Kraxis

04-15-2006, 18:14

GAH!

It is when I look at drawing like this that I realize that I have never had a talent for drawing... AT ALL!

Orda Khan

04-18-2006, 17:00

Thanks Orda.....they're are great. Did you draw these yourself?:2thumbsup:
Glad you like them, I will post some Mongol Light Cav when I get around to finishing them. I always wanted to illustrate for a living but it was not to be, sadly

.......Orda

DukeofSerbia

04-18-2006, 18:42

@ kataphraktoi

Those are soldiers of king and emperor Stefan Dushan (1331-1355). The picture (fresco) is from monastery Milesheva. Question is are they imperial guard or not, as they have armor and large shield but only spear as a waepon.

https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/25/vojnicicaradusana8dt.th.jpg (https://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vojnicicaradusana8dt.jpg)

This is only partly. I just found the whole fresco in color (brown-white soldiers below angel)

http://www.uzice.net/photo/MilesevaMonastery-TheWhiteAngel.jpg

wraithdt

04-18-2006, 20:17

Glad you like them, I will post some Mongol Light Cav when I get around to finishing them. I always wanted to illustrate for a living but it was not to be, sadly

.......Orda

Awesome! Your stuff is really good, you should join our concept team. Looking forward to your future sketches.

Duke John

04-18-2006, 20:25

Very well done drawings, Orda! Will you colour them too, perhaps in PS?

Sir Robin

04-24-2006, 21:16

Excellent concepts, thank you!:2thumbsup:

While I will buy MTW2 because I enjoy CA's work RTW and BI didn't appeal to me as much as STW and MTW did. However RTR and EB are both fantastic in their own ways and greatly extended the hardrive life and my interest in RTW.

I can only hope that MTR and MA do the same for MTW2 and it looks like MTR is off to a great start.

Thank you:2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi

04-25-2006, 10:58

Yeah man, those drawings done by Orda Khan are great, I think he should do the Mongol concepts for MTR!!

And I'm not saying that just so I don't have too hehe.

Orda Khan

05-02-2006, 17:54

https://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6387/mha1b1eu.th.jpg (https://img193.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1b1eu.jpg)
Mongol Horse Archer 01. At first glance it would appear he wears no armour apart from his helmet. The body and upper arm sections of his del are lined with overlapping leather segments, iron rivets reinforce the protection.
https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9548/mha1a5eu.th.jpg (https://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1a5eu.jpg)
Mongol Horse Archer 02. He wears his traditional Mongol fur hat and a cuirass made from thick felt with hardened leather rivetted on top for extra protection.
https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6563/mha1c1fy.th.jpg (https://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1c1fy.jpg)
Mongol Horse Archers releasing their arrows from a gallop. One wears a cuirass of leather strips, the other wears none except for his helmet.
Thank you for the kind words about my sketches, it has been a pleasure to draw them. I will add some auxiliary troops from the nations conquered as the Mongol empire expanded.

To Duke John
I am no good at using PC animation programs but what I will do for you is make a print of that Mongol Heavy on horseback and colour it with watercolours. I'll post a scan of it for you

........Orda

ride the lightning

05-03-2006, 11:23

I read the entire thread. This seems like a really great mod for the game, even though neither have been released. If i enjoy the game I will download the mod.

Grumfoss

05-03-2006, 13:36

I'm humbled by the amount of talent I see on these boards. The drawings are excellent.

I am afraid that I cannot do anything except stand in the wings and applaud the talents of Org. members.
I too have read through the whole thread ( Something I do not normally have the time to do) and have eagerly clicked on every link and enjoyed looking at all the concepts on display.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished article and will definitely be downloading the mod when it arrives. Good luck and keep your pencils sharp.:2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi

05-03-2006, 14:38

Orda Khan, you sure you don't want to join the MTR team, we NEED YOU!! oh Steppe Lord!!

ur drawings are exquisite as always

Duke John

05-03-2006, 19:00

Wonderful drawings again, Orda!
I am looking forward to the coloured version! Although with PS I meant PhotoShop. If you can scan your pencil drawing you can colour it without affecting the original, although without a drawing tablet that might be a bit tough.

Orda Khan

05-13-2006, 11:42

Orda Khan, you sure you don't want to join the MTR team, we NEED YOU!! oh Steppe Lord!!

ur drawings are exquisite as always
I would not want to agree to something I later fail to carry out. Time is my problem these days. I can offer my services by way of drawings and will support with any information I have about the Mongols and other steppe nomads.
I have a set of drawings waiting to be scanned and one that is 'in my head' at the moment

.......Orda

kataphraktoi

05-13-2006, 15:34

ur in the same boat as me, Im strapped for time with assignments assailing me like annoying nomads from the endless steppes. :2thumbsup:

Orda Khan

05-15-2006, 17:31

The steppes of southern Russia, eastward past the Aral sea and bordering the lands of Khwarazm were the homelands of the Qipchaqs and Qangli (eastern Qipchaqs). The Qangli were allies of Khwarazm and had provided the Shah with horsemen during the war between Khwarazm and the Mongols. This allegiance and the subsequent defeat, offered the Mongols the excuse to subjugate these western steppe nomads. The Qipchaqs, known to the Mongols as Qipcha'ud and to the Europeans as Cumans or Polovtsians were the first to fall as Batu began his western campaign and became the largest contingent of the armies of the Golden Horde. Though history refers to Batu's Ulus as the Golden Horde, it was known throughout the Mongol Empire as the Khanate of Qipcha'ud. Some Qipchaqs fled into Russia and Hungary, however the inbred suspicion of steppe nomads meant their plight remained desperate. Qipchaq women were looked upon very favourably and there were many marriages between Hungarian and Russian notables and the Qipchaqs. Allied troops of the Qipchaqs would be known as Polovtsian in Russian armies and Cuman in those of Hungary........
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/5447/qipchaq012ic.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq012ic.jpg)
Qipcha'ud Light Cavalryman
This horse archer wears a lamellar cuirass and simple helmet. His main weapon is the composite bow, he also carries a mace.
https://img419.imageshack.us/img419/4892/qipchaqelite012pz.th.jpg (https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaqelite012pz.jpg)
Qipcha'ud Elite/Noble Cavalryman
Reflecting his position and wealth, he wears a mail hauberk with full aventail and a lamellar cuirass. His crested helmet is fluted and incorporates an anthropomorphic iron visor. Visors of this sort have been discovered in areas of Qipchaq and Bulgar territories

.......Orda

Avicenna

05-15-2006, 18:48

Impressive art and knowledge Orda! Are you Mongolian?

Orda Khan

05-28-2006, 16:24

https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/342/qipchaq026vg.th.jpg (https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq026vg.jpg)
Qipcha'ud Light Cavalryman
Armed with both sword and spear, his main weapon is his bow. His only armour is thick felt worn over a padded de'el. He also wears a traditional Qipchaq fur rimmed hat.

No Tiberius I am not Mongolian

......Orda

kburkert

05-28-2006, 17:40

I was thinking that since we both are doing mods for M2TW that any info we find out about the game, we should share.

kataphraktoi

05-30-2006, 19:10

Who is exactly we Kburket?

I like steppe belts, better than Prada. :laugh4:

I especially like the helmets with a facial visor.

Excavations in Constantinople have found such visors in the Imperial palaces. Don't know whether they were Cumanic in origin or not...

ivoignob

05-30-2006, 19:57

Orda Khan, your drawings are very good. I know that, because I draw myself. Unfortunately I have not enough knowledge on middle-age military armor etc. Otherwise I had posted some Ottoman soldiers... Maybe I will do so anyway in the near future...

Myrddraal

05-30-2006, 20:28

I was thinking that since we both are doing mods for M2TW that any info we find out about the game, we should share.

kburket - What on earth do you think a modding community is?!?!?

When RTW was released, people shared discoveries, researched the game together and worked as a community. I sincerely hope you weren't suggesting holding back info you found out about MIITW!

Myrddraal

05-30-2006, 20:32

On another note, I heard about a mod called: Mediaeval Auctoriso

I hope we aren't going to divide those modders interested in realism in two again... please... :sad:

Orda Khan

05-31-2006, 16:37

Excavations in Constantinople have found such visors in the Imperial palaces. Don't know whether they were Cumanic in origin or not...
Yes the 'face mask' visors have been discovered over a large area from Constantinople to the Volga region. There is also some debate whether they were actually used in battle

......Orda

kataphraktoi

05-31-2006, 18:57

Orda Khan, u've done more concepts that I have so far...ur more official than I am. HAHAHAHA.:laugh4:

Sigh too bad little exists of Byzantine armour, probably because it wasn't as distinctive. After all, it did heavily adopt foreign influences.

Would be nice to see re-enactor as a Klibanophori. Too bad folks these days aren't as hardy. Hehe.

Kralizec

05-31-2006, 21:27

Those drawings (all of them) are simply beautiful. I wish I could draw like that...well, I'm trying ~;)

Callahan9119

05-31-2006, 23:53

is it right that you are using the "total realism" name when your not with that team? i'm ignorant to if it was ok with them :inquisitive:

and to the witty gentleman who was bashing rtr, change your sig...it reveals the depths of your intellect. you dont wanna show your cards too early :laugh4:

NagatsukaShumi

06-01-2006, 02:05

On another note, I heard about a mod called: Mediaeval Auctoriso

I hope we aren't going to divide those modders interested in realism in two again... please... :sad:

Me and my team have no intention of competing with MTR in any fashion Myrddraal, I welcome any colaboration between MA and MTR as I have stated numerous times in the past.

I don't want to hijack this thread because its not my place to do so but MA is not the same as MTR, yes we have a goal to be as accurate as we can but, as was announced in our first "preview" their are features you will not be seeing in MTR and are certainly moving away from being historical, the "fantasy units" based on your success for one.

Lets try and keep the MTR thread free of discussion of Medieval Auctoriso if we can please, I really don't want people to get the impression we are in competition because I can confirm we are not.

Thanks :2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi

06-01-2006, 11:46

Fantasy units based on success is just a speculative discussion, not a concrete idea to be implemented in MTR. Our goal is to still implement historically accurate and feasible units of course....

And there would not be anything fantastical about it anyway. This whole Total War game series is about changing history with historical units, but the other half the story does not tell us about is what military developments would have been possible if so and so faction did so and so this and that, etc....

Myrddraal

06-01-2006, 11:51

Well suit yourselves. I think it would be great if you could forget the heritage of RTR and EB and merge to form something new. I can't dictate to you though, do what you feel is best. :thumbsup:

NagatsukaShumi

06-01-2006, 12:45

Well suit yourselves. I think it would be great if you could forget the heritage of RTR and EB and merge to form something new. I can't dictate to you though, do what you feel is best. :thumbsup:

Well, I can say on our part we have nothing but admiration for the MTR team and will endevour to keep friendly relations between us, any collaborations on certain area's are welcomed and we will try to keep away from the whole "division" aspect.

Orda Khan

06-01-2006, 16:35

Speaking as a member of neither MA nor MTR and thinking of the completed Mod, a collaboration would be a good thing for both teams and the community. Myrddraal has already hinted at the competition between EB and RTR and it did exist because I remember it. No matter how well intentioned, sooner or later there will be comparisons, which lead to intervention by Mod members, which in turn will cause rivalry and we do not want that.

I am doing my concepts for the Mongol and other steppe nomads with one intention only and that is to hopefully see historically accurate representation of my personal historical interest. If MA or MTR or both would like to make use of them that is fine by me

.......Orda

Orda Khan

06-14-2006, 17:39

Volga/Kama Bulgars
An Altaic people inhabiting the area north of the Caspian Sea around the Volga and Kama. They managed to withstand the pressures from the Khazars who overcame the state of Old Bulgaria around the Sea of Azov. They were descendants of the Onogurs (people of ten arrows). The Onogurs were the remnants of Attila's Huns, eventually known as Bulgars (mixed peoples) with a mix of other tribes such as Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Slavs. There was also an association with Magyars and Alans. With the collapse of Old Bulgaria, the inhabitants were scattered in migration, some under Onogur leadership entered the Balkans to found Bulgaria, others fled northwards and became the Volga Bulgars. To further protect themselves from the Khazars, they allied with Baghdad and adopted Islam. They became a rich nation with their capital, Bulgar becoming an important trade centre. They had elements of Russian, Byzantine and Turkish influence and transported many Slavs and Finns to work for them. In 1237 the Volga Bulgars were defeated by Batu and their capital city utterly destroyed.
https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/778/bulgarinfantryman9un.th.jpg (https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgarinfantryman9un.jpg)
Bulgar Infantryman
Wearing a lamellar cuirass over a mail hauberk and a helmet with nasal and partial face mask, there is evidence of Russian influence. The Bulgars had abandoned their nomadic lifestyle some time ago, with infantry featuring prominently in their armies.
https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5885/bulgararcher7zz.th.jpg (https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgararcher7zz.jpg)
Bulgar Archer
Islamic influence can be seen in this archer. Though dismounted, he could also be used on horse back. His nomad heritage is still evident with the use of the composite bow.
https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9922/mongolnoyan6yh.th.jpg (https://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolnoyan6yh.jpg)
Mongol Noyan
This Mongol commander is finely dressed, reflecting the successes of Mongol conquests. His armour is quilted silk on heavy leather and his helmet incorporates a facial visor. A snow leopard saddle blanket depicts his status

..........Orda

kataphraktoi

06-16-2006, 06:46

-Almogaver-

06-16-2006, 10:39

Hi all!
I'm new here but I'm very interested in this mod since I totally enjoyed playing RTR (I know you're not the same team). I'm really looking forward to MTR and I thought I could be of some help.
I'm pretty sure the game will include the Crown of Aragon as a faction and I thought that you might need historical information. I can provide information on its history, heraldry and of course units. I have got many detailed drawings of catalan-aragonese units of early and late medieval ages. Information about each unit's characteristics, strenghs and weaknesses etc

I'd be glad to help you in any way possible.

Despertaferro!

PS. Those posted drawings are... wow!

NagatsukaShumi

06-16-2006, 13:01

Good as always. :idea2:

I suppose we could have a common resource thread where information is available to all modders, except of course for technical stuff, I'm sure MA have their little lightning in a bottle to keep from us. :laugh4: Fair enough.

We have to keep secrets, an honest set of modders can't tease the public and torture them otherwise :laugh4:

Any idea of where we could set this resource thread up? I would imagine it to be these forums for the time being.

bozkirsovalyesi

06-17-2006, 00:00

Orda Khan :

in yours pictures cumans (kumanlar) mongol types...

that types... maybe huns for valid.
true: in mongols huns existing.

but cumans - hazars pure turks...

cumans (meaning)
turkish: kuman = blond or brown or pale
russian: polovtsi = blond or brown
germans: fallben = blond
armenian: xartes = blond

(many east and west bibliography "for cumans" say... a lot of beautiful humans to be )

yours pictures fictitious and imaginary animates.. cumans not mongol types... cumans and hazars blondie and brown beautiful humans.

Epistolary Richard

06-17-2006, 00:50

Any idea of where we could set this resource thread up? I would imagine it to be these forums for the time being.
Resources for modding MTW2 will go on the MTW2 modding forums when they're opened.

Purely historical resources should go in a thread in the Monastery (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=16) which you can link to in your mod co-ordination thread.

Orda Khan

06-19-2006, 16:20

Orda Khan :
yours pictures fictitious and imaginary animates.. cumans not mongol types... cumans and hazars blondie and brown beautiful humans.
If you would like to provide some evidence that Qipchaqs were all blonde and beautiful I would be very interested indeed, however this is hardly the place to enter into such discussions.
You see, I have studied this subject for more than 40 years and even after that time I would not make such a rash statement. There is evidence to show that even among the Mongols there were plenty who had brown hair and green eyes, Chingis Khan and most of his immediate descendants are a good enough example of this. There would be no reason to assume that this would not be true also of the Qipchaqs but a declaration that they were all blonde and beautiful is stretching the imagination more than just a little bit. In other words, sorry I do not agree

.......Orda

kataphraktoi

06-20-2006, 15:23

I second Orda Khan on that point, just go to Central Asia and you'll find a very diverse gene pool there - there is a strong inter-mixing of blood in this porous region which also encompasses the entire Eurasian steppe to the Mongol steppes.

Orda Khan

06-20-2006, 16:17

Not to mention the fact that very few, if any of these steppe nations were 'pure'. The Huns who campaigned in eastern Europe were a good example of this. They were a confederation, comprising various other peoples, to the extent that actual Huns were probably a minority; even Attila's campaigns were more Germanic in their nature. Conquered tribes were absorbed by the victors, marriages of convenience, to forge allegiances etc. All this helped to create a mixed population that although known collectively as Hun, Mongol or whatever was not actually so. When Chingis unified Mongolia, many of those tribes were Turkic; the arranged marriages of his sons; further expansion along the Asian steppe; meant that true Mongols were themselves a minority within their own empire. The Golden Horde were called Tatars in Russia and Europe, derived from a Mongol term for conquered peoples. Possibly more realistic than Mongol, it only serves to confuse the whole issue if we start to consider Tatars proper.
In my sketches I actually made an effort to portray the Mongol units as 'Mongoloid' in their features and the Qipchaqs not so. Only one Qipchaq has his hair visible and worn in the braids depicted in many Qipchaq statues and other historical sources.
https://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7561/hun016tk.th.jpg (https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hun016tk.jpg)
Here is a depiction of a Hun. So little archaeological evidence exists and source descriptions are generally outlandish, preferring to demonise so accuracy is extremely difficult. Archaeological finds such as a similar coat, bow siyahs and arrow heads help in some way. Most evidence of steppe nomads suggests a great deal of similarity and that clothing styles and patterns changed little over hundreds of years

......Orda

Orda Khan

06-30-2006, 22:41

https://img418.imageshack.us/img418/7453/mongolkhan1zs.th.jpg (https://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolkhan1zs.jpg)
Faction Leader
Mongol Khan, Heir and Tuq Standard

........Orda

kataphraktoi

07-01-2006, 04:00

Sexy Lamellar :P

kataphraktoi

07-10-2006, 15:13

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/696/img07985xn.th.jpg

Some very very rough Varangian Guard concepts, they are heavily influenced by Central Asian styles and the quality of their armour suggests they are long-time veterans, not recent arrivals. Plus, since the mod is 1054, Varangians are predominantly of Scandinavian/Rus stock and are familiar with Turkic fashions and customs.

4th Dimension

07-10-2006, 19:40

Actually link is: https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/696/img07985xn.jpg

You posted the thumbnail

Silver Rusher

07-10-2006, 19:43

I'm sorry I had to post in your thread to bring this to your attention, but kataphraktoi, PLEASE empty your PM box!

kataphraktoi

07-10-2006, 22:11

ok its emptied!!

polak966

07-16-2006, 08:04

cumans (meaning)
turkish: kuman = blond or brown or pale
russian: polovtsi = blond or brown
germans: fallben = blond
armenian: xartes = blond

polovec, or połowiec in polish, does not mean blonde or brown. to me the root of the word sounds like it could be lowca, which means hunter.

kataphraktoi

07-16-2006, 09:22

We're not updating here anymore, check under MTW2 modification for Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

econ21

07-16-2006, 11:57

We're not updating here anymore, check under MTW2 modification for Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

Do you want me to lock this thread or transfer it to the other forum? If I do the latter, an admin or whoever has moderator rights there could merge it with another thread of yours.

R4P

07-17-2006, 10:42

Time to know a bit about Wraithdt:
Concepts he's responsible for:
Crusaders
Arabs
Turks (joint)

Concepts done so far:
Saracen Infantry
Ghulam cavalry
Varangian Guard
Futuwwa Infantry
Templar Knight

From:
Petaling Jaya, Malaysia

Now:
Canada, modeller and concept artist
__________________
Where can I find the 'Futuwwa Infantry'? I can't find it and these concept drawings are so beautiful; I wouldn't like to miss out on one.
Edit: I should have read the last post, my mistake. I'll post my request in the other thread.