(Ir)Responsible?

[Lemur]

Okay, I thought I'd throw this out to the Orgiasts. I'm coming into a bit of money, and I've decided to treat myself to a new PC, since my home-brew machine is 3+ years old, starting to have problems with the newer games, and dreadfully short on disc space. I know I'm going to go with the following:


AMD X2 CPU (either the 4400 or the 4800, since those are the ones with 2 megs total cache)
ASUS Nforce4 mobo (the 2 x 16 model)
Some flavor of Nvidia 7800 video card (singleton, with SLI a possibility in the distant future)
At least 2 hard drives

My question has to do with cost. I could spec out an ungodly machine for around $3500, and it would be a beast. All the HD space I could ever desire. A monstrous power supply from PC Power & Cooling. The works. Or I could be a responsible Lemur and put together a very nice machine for about $2500, which would still be a screamer, but of much more sane proportions.

How nuts should I go? Is there any concievable reason I should build a God Box? Can one make a rational argument for buying top-of-the-line parts? Or is it folly, pure and simple? I've never built a top of the line rig in my life, I've always opted for the 2nd best proc, 2nd best video card, etc., etc. A part of me wants to wade into the high end just for the hell of it. The "because I can" factor, if you will.

Possible rationalizations for building a God Box:


I game, and I like the latest games, 'cause I'm a sucker for graphics
I rip lots of media to disc, both films and music
I build websites now and then, and that usually involves media conversion
I like fast machines with lots of pretty lights

None of these reasons seem terribly convincing, now that I look at them. Can anybody talk me into a higher plane of foolishness?

P.S.: I'm also thinking about going with water cooling for reasons of noise. Anybody know a web site that does custom builds of water-cooled rigs? Preferably one like I Buy Power (http://www.ibuypower.com/mall/lobby.htm), where the assembled rig is cheaper than buying the parts yourself?

[Xiahou]

I cant even imagine how you'd spend $2500, let alone $3500.... my last upgrade (I usually do them piecemeal) came to maybe a grandtotal of $650 and it can handle any game out there right now- including Oblivion.

As for the technology, I dont think it's ever worthwhile to buy cutting edge- but then, you probably already know that. But hey, if you've got the money go nuts- I have no right to criticize anyone for dropping cash on gadgetry. :sweatdrop:

[Beirut]

If you've got the cash to blow... :juggle2:

You could save some money by getting a slower CPU perhaps. Some of the new ones cost $1000Cdn. Sure you might get 251FPS in FEAR, but a $500 CPU will still get you 100FPS and it's not like you would notice the difference.

I find staying about a year behind the times gives me a really good machine for a reasonble amount of money.

[LeftEyeNine]

If you're into PC's and gaming and you can afford it, do afford it. Simple rule gained after 12 years of PC experience.

[Geezer57]

AMD X2 CPU (either the 4400 or the 4800, since those are the ones with 2 megs total cache)


Substitute an Opteron 165 for either of those, and save considerable money. It's a dual-core, with 1 meg cache per core, and most overclock to between 2.4 to 2.6 ghz on air-cooling.
P.S. Fits into socket 939.

[Lemur]

Geezer, is there any downside to the Opteron? Sounds absolutely dreamy ...

[edit]

Xihaou, I've decided to replace the entire machine, and pass on my old one to a relative. That's how I wind up with a four-digit figure. Sorry if it seems a bit crass, spending that much on a computer. Anybody who'd like to flame me as a capitalist pig who spends too much on gizmos, please feel free.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Dear Lord....£/$3500 to spend on a computer.....*drools*

I wonder how on Earth you can spend it all....neon lighting in the case....liquid cooling....ATI X1800....

Then again, you could just do what sensible people do (like me) and buy all the parts for your computer, but be sensible and buy a computer that is still great.

I was sensible, spent about £500 on mine, and it can run all modern games. Possibly Oblivion as well. I need to check...

EDIT: Definitely run Oblivion. Heck, with my rig, Oblivion is owned...
EDIT EDIT: If i can run Oblivion easily on my £500 PC, think what you could do with the left-over money if you were a crafty consumer like me and bought a similar PC...you've probably been wanting to treat yourself to something cool...how does a nice Plasma HD TV sound too you?

[Lemur]

Equating the dollar figures I gave with British pounds is going to make my extravagance seem even worse than it already is. A quick conversion of the numbers you're brandishing about:

500 British pounds = 874.2 U.S. dollars

3,500 British pounds = 6,119.4 U.S. dollars

2,500 U.S. dollars = 1,429.88 British pounds

3,500 U.S. dollars = 2,001.83 British pounds

[doc_bean]

You might want to save a little money for a DirectX10 videocard when it comes around. But if you want to go all out, that's your business. If you're looking for inspiration, I heard Epic is showing UT2007 on a quad 7800 rig :dizzy2: You might also want to check out the hardware review thread, I posted a link there about the the ATI X1900 crossfire (basically a second X1900) and it has some interesting comments on dual videocard set-ups.

personally I wouldn't waste over much over a $1000 on a new PC, all the stuff that's fancy today is obsolete tomorrow. Remember dual Voodoo cards set-ups ? They were ridiculously expensive and pretty much outdated a year later.

[Xiahou]

Sorry if it seems a bit crass, spending that much on a computer. Anybody who'd like to flame me as a capitalist pig who spends too much on gizmos, please feel free.Not I, I have no room at all to criticize.... multiple PCs, PDA, UPSs, GPSs, and so on. :2thumbsup:

I'd say that if you're going to drop that kind of cash though, go for the dual video cards. :idea2:

[Lemur]

Discussing all of this publicly is filling me with buyer's remorse, which is really amazing since I haven't bought anything yet. Perhaps I should just stick with my old home-brew box, and sink the money into something useless like Maxwell's college fund.

That's Smeagol talking. Gollum wants a God Box.

[edit -- addendum]

Maybe buying impractical gizmos is like buying porn. Don't ask, don't tell. Perhaps I've violated a taboo I didn't know existed?

[doc_bean]

Maybe buying impractical gizmos is like buying porn. Don't ask, don't tell. Perhaps I've violated a taboo I didn't know existed?

Any discussion on about hardware in a cult gaming forum will eventually lead to two conclusions:

1. Your proposed system isn't 1337 enough
2. Your proposed system is a waste of money, you can get the same kind of performance cheaper !

So if you go ahead and buy your system you will both feel like you wasted money on something you didn't need and that your system will only be good enough to last you a year or so before it becomes totally outdated.


Don't ask, don't tell. :oops:

[Geezer57]

Geezer, is there any downside to the Opteron? Sounds absolutely dreamy ...

There's a good discussion of this issue here: http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?t=281163

The only "downside" that I've seen is the size of the L1 cache (smaller), the 9x fixed multiplier, and the "stock" speed of the processor (1.8ghz). The benefits include lower price, lower base voltage, server grade hardware, better memory controller, etc., etc. It might be a good idea to invest part of the CPU savings into top-quality, higher speed RAM, as the lower fixed multiplier will have you running your memory at high speeds to get the best CPU frequencies.

[Phatose]

The opty does NOT have less L1 cache then the X2. It's just been badly worded in places. They opty is listed as 64kb data+64kb instruction, but that's per core: Grand total 256kb. The x2 has 128kb+128kb, but that's 128kb total (64k+64k, like the opty) on core one, pluse 128kb on core two.

Save the money on performance RAM, even if you get an Opty. Memory dividers really don't hurt opty/A64s, and the actual performance between high grade RAM and low grade RAM is very near nothing.

Since gaming is obviously a concern, you'd be better off tossing your cash at the video side of things. 7800s definitely aren't the way to go with the 7900 so near. Even then, there's good reasons to consider the X1900XT. I don't especially like Ati, but it's hard to deny that the 1900's are killer cards.

[Geezer57]

Geezer, is there any downside to the Opteron? Sounds absolutely dreamy ...


The opty does NOT have less L1 cache then the X2. It's just been badly worded in places. They opty is listed as 64kb data+64kb instruction, but that's per core: Grand total 256kb. The x2 has 128kb+128kb, but that's 128kb total (64k+64k, like the opty) on core one, pluse 128kb on core two.

Save the money on performance RAM, even if you get an Opty. Memory dividers really don't hurt opty/A64s, and the actual performance between high grade RAM and low grade RAM is very near nothing.

Since gaming is obviously a concern, you'd be better off tossing your cash at the video side of things. 7800s definitely aren't the way to go with the 7900 so near. Even then, there's good reasons to consider the X1900XT. I don't especially like Ati, but it's hard to deny that the 1900's are killer cards.

Lemur, what Phatose is saying only reinforces my wholehearted recommendation of the Opty chip over an x2. Looks to me like any negatives are extremely minor, with ready workarounds for most of them. I've got a new machine on my workbench with an Opty 165 in it - still has a little ways to go before it's finished, but I'm looking forward to it with glee! :2thumbsup:

I also second Phatose's recommendations on video cards - the money saved elsewhere is well spent on good graphics. The NVidia 7900's should be very close to the x1900 level. I have no real preference in one brand over the other, it just seems to depend on your use. If you're seriously considering dual-card right now, then NVidia's SLI is the more mature technology. But CrossFire is quickly catching up, although you have to use an ATI chipset mobo for it. In single-card installations, especially if you're going to devote some game-time to older games (like Medieval), the ATI drivers seem to break less often than NVidia's. There do seem to be workarounds that work for some folks (i.e., manually setting antialiasing to zero, etc.). But I'm sticking with ATI (in single card installations) for now.

I prefer to stay away from the "cutting edge" technology, as mostly a waste of money. You build a God-Box one month, the next month it's obsoleted by something new. But if you're an overclocker / tweaker, and pick your lower-level hardware carefully, you can have 90%+ of the God-Box performance for a lot less money. Which allows you to take the money saved, invest it, and have it available for future upgrades more often. I'd never consider (as some here have written) building a super machine and expecting it to last unchanged for 3-5 years. I'll build something lesser, but still potent, for a whole lot less and upgrade it approximately every six months or so.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Lemur if this helps you feel any less guilty saving up for Maxwell's college tuition isn't really worth it from what I've heard. Colleges just give you less financial aid then and grab as much of your cash as possible. It sucks but that's the way it is.

I'd spend between $1500-$2500, anything less doesn't seem to be worth it to me, and anything more seems like a waste, but do whatever you want.

[Lemur]

For what it's worth, I'm 100% sold on going with an Opteron. The fact that I can slap one into a 939 pin mobo just rocks my world. I've also read Anandtech's reports on high-speed RAM, and I'm sold on the notion that RAM ist RAM ist RAM. Not gonna waste money on no fancy-boy RAM.

I'm keen on having somebody else do the actual build. I can do it myself, but I inevitably get something wrong, and the wiring always looks like a rat's afro by the time I'm done. And I can never get the front plate functions working correctly. I rationalize this away by saying things like, "Who really wants USB on the front of the PC? When am I ever going to care about the HD light?"

I've learned my limitations. I can build a machine fine, but it's gonna rattle and roll and need the occasional kick to get the fans turning. I'm going to pay the small premium having somebody else build it brings.

I could go with my first choice, I Buy Power (http://www.ibuypower.com/mall/lobby.htm), but they don't offer Opterons in their 939 builds. I found a place that will build you a gaming rig with an Opteron called Monarch Computers (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv). Anybody know anything about them?

[Strike For The South]

3500 personaly I would fund a small civil war in Africa but a pc would be #2 good luck brotha

[Beirut]

3500 personaly I would fund a small civil war in Africa...

Why would you do that? :inquisitive:

[Paul Peru]

Just thought I'd rap on the open door by saying how pleased I am with my 165.
As for RAM, it's important to be able to run at 1T timing.
Having faster RAM will allow you more flexibility in overclocking the CPU.
I've got quite standard RAM, and it will not go much higher than 200 MHz at 1T, so I'm stuck at 2.2 GHz for the CPU unless I go up to the next divider, which would have it running above 2.4. I will probably try one of these days. :dizzy2:

[Paul Peru]

Why would you do that? :inquisitive:
Didn't you read "Starting small civil wars in Africa for fun and profit" by Thatcher & Archer?:balloon2:

[Beirut]

Didn't you read "Starting small civil wars in Africa for fun and profit" by Thatcher & Archer?:balloon2:

Ah, of course. That is the companion volume to Rusty Bedsprings by I.P. Knightly.

'Nuff said.

[Reenk Roink]

Well here are some things you can do with $1000 extra dollars:

-Donate to charity

-Buy your wife a nice piece of jewelry

-Buy many varieties of drugs in significant amounts

-Buy an endless variety of matching shower curtains and bath towels

-Donate to the Republican Party

-Gamble it all on who gets the most Swedish Fish in a pack

Personally, I would only think that option 1, and probably 2 are good alternatives...

But if you are a regular donater to charity and usually give your wife nice shinies...splurge my man :2thumbsup:.

[Geezer57]

I found a place that will build you a gaming rig with an Opteron called Monarch Computers (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv). Anybody know anything about them?

Their six-month rating (per ResellerRatings.com) is 8.34, while their lifetime rating is 9.12, which may indicate that service is slipping a little. Otherwise, they appear a fairly safe bet. See here: http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2079.html

Contrast with Newegg.com's ratings of 9.25/9.63, it's obvious Monarch could be better - but then again Newegg won't build your box for you...

Have you asked around at a local mom & pop computer store? Buy your parts at Newegg, then see how much a local would want to put together just a barebones for you out of them. You sound more than competent enough to mount drives, install software, video cards, RAM, etc. Which are all time-intensive activities a retail store has to charge for - so you should be able to save by doing those tasks yourself.

Or maybe you could ask for help from one of the more knowledgeable enthusiasts at a local LAN party? That way you'd probably save considerably more money, with volunteer help.

[Mikeus Caesar]

-Donate to charity

-Buy your wife a nice piece of jewelry

-Buy many varieties of drugs in significant amounts

-Buy an endless variety of matching shower curtains and bath towels

-Donate to the Republican Party

-Gamble it all on who gets the most Swedish Fish in a pack

Personally, I would only think that option 1, and probably 2 are good alternatives...


I'd go with option 4 and 6, preferably 4. The lure of all those curtains and towels is too great to resist...*goes on a buying spree of shower curtains and bath towels*

[Lemur]

Towels and curtains are good, but I will put my savings toward a more important goal -- more hounds! I must have more hounds to chase down and kill my, um, my enemies. Yeah. And maybe the neighborhood kids as well.

Our current set of hounds:


http://homepage.mac.com/brendanbaber/BaberFiles/05_baber_files/11_05/files/page6-1032-full.jpg

[Paul Peru]

I'm stuck at 2.2 GHz for the CPU unless I go up to the next divider, which would have it running above 2.4. I will probably try one of these days. :dizzy2:
Woopsie, did it.
No extra voltage, doesn't seem to run that much hotter either (59 C @2.4 vs 56 @2.2 after maxing out both cores for 20 minutes)
Lovely CPU!
I may give the money I've "saved" by buying the Opteron to the local Republican Party. (We've got a monarchy going on here)

[_Martyr_]

My suggestion would be to get 2 mid to high range rigs instead of one god box. Myself and my flat mate have two rigs right beside each other, and let me tell you that gaming enjoyment increases exponentially with more players being right there...