PDA

View Full Version : What to use as Roman allied troops?



econ21
03-09-2006, 11:11
I read from one of Adrian Goldsworthy's books, that the typical republican Roman army was half Roman and half allied troops. What do people recommend for the composition of those troops?

In Rome Total Realism, you have Italian skirmishers, spearmen, swordsmen and cavalry which nicely fit the bill. Plus you can recruit Gaulish & some other auxiliary type troops in the appropriate regions. All these units are typically weaker than Romans so using them makes the game a little harder, as well as making your true Romans seem a rather precious commodity on the battlefield.

In EB, there seem to be three possibilities:

(1) Just make do with the Romans. This may be my preferred approach. It means the army fights "in character". I think Qwerty said that the Italian allies would fight rather similarly to the Romans anyway. And in EB, early Roman units are not as uber as they are in RTR.

(2) Recruit whatever is locally available in towns. Very early in the game, I've noticed I can recruit Samnite Spearmen but I'm reluctant to take them because the Samnites look rather superior in stats to the Romans (except triarii). I'm not sure how EBs system of recruiting local troops works, but I can anticipate that when the army goes far afield, recruiting locally may become necessary and rather characterful.

(3) Hire mercenaries - I could flesh out the armies with lots of mercs - Samnites, Gaulish, Greek etc. This option seems expensive and I get queasy about fielding a Roman army with phalanxes etc. I'm tempted to leave recruitment of mercenaries for desperate situations. But hiring Gaulish mercs for wars in Gaul etc seems rather historical (basically like allying with local tribes in a divide and conquer sort of strategy).

Any thoughts? What do other people do who try to play Rome in a historical manner?

SwordsMaster
03-09-2006, 12:35
Well, I tend to keep armies of 2 hastati, 2 principes and 1 triarii as my core "roman" force that never have to do anything but fight, i.e. no guarding settlements, no sitting in forts etc.

I tend to bulk with 2 accensi, 1 leves,1 roarii, a general and 2 equites. Usually the roarii and one of the accensi would be left as a garrison force if one is needed.

Then I allow myself 2 mercenary units per army. Early on they are usually heavy samnite swordsmen to give me that extra punch on the offensive, or Hippeis as my own cavalry melts pretty quickly. (I know, I know...)

And I have no problem with samnite spearmen. Usually enemy heavy cavalry is a bit too much for romans to handle, so samnites provide an affordable alternative. I also use them to man rams and such.

Trithemius
03-09-2006, 13:22
I tend to field three hastati, two principes, three triarii in a 3-2-3 "deformed quincunx pattern" as the core of my line; I also tend to use my pila on autofire though - moving close/waiting for them to approach and then switching to autofire and then charging when the enemy is wavering a bit. I also use my leves forward - if I am fighting phalanx then I use them on the flanks to give enfilading fire, if I am fighting impetuous troops I use them in front to lure the enemy towards my main line to be cut up (or to lure them faraway if they are drapanai or gesatae so they get worn out and peppered with missiles until my cavalry can mop them up).

I don't use a lot of mercenaries, although I am planning on adding Gallic and Hellenic archers when I can (for the army and for wall defence) and I often find myself using Hellenic light cavalry mercenaries and trying to save my equites from casualties during multistage offensives.

Strategically, I find myself coming home to Rome more often than in earlier builds - Rome has a good population and those morale bonuses and I also think its sort of appropriate to try and winter my armies in my main cities from time to time.

The true weak spot for the Romans, for me, seems to be in archers for city defence. I feel a little "exposed" without a couple of large units of bow-armed chaps to chase away Gauls and door-to-door salesmen.

I also agree with SwordMaster if by enemy cavalry he means skirmishing missile cavalry - its a serious blind spot for the Romans with their limited cavalry and long range missile options, Carthaginian generals still seem pretty tough too, although they feel easier than they were in 0.7.2.

Teleklos Archelaou
03-09-2006, 16:40
There are more roman auxiliary skins planned, and a few done I think, but I don't know how many will be in the next build. They will help this situation out a lot. Reading the subject line, I thought the post was about a different problem we currently have that I like to moan and groan about - what type of roman troops can you recruit if you put a type4 govt in italian provinces (if you are a non-roman faction). :grin:

QwertyMIDX
03-09-2006, 16:59
Latin Allies and many other central italian groups fought under the romans in "the roman manner." Most allied troops fighting with Rome would be of that type. There we also the illustrious extrondinarii (they're coming eventually). Other sorts of allies were less common (although crews of many/most roman ships seem to have been Italian greeks).

econ21
03-09-2006, 23:28
Interesting - especially Swordsmaster's post which almost exactly matches my own Roman "core" (I also used to follow the 2 mercs houserule in RTR). I would have one less equites and not count the 2 extra light units he leaves behind.

It raises another issue which is how large your army should be. With Swordsmaster's core you are looking at around 11 Romans + 2 mercs. Almost a half strength force. Two of my cores (I like to think of each as a legion) would be 20 Roman units and it seems almost unsporting to go at the AI with that.

Given that the AI often fails to coordinate attacks with multiple stacks and indeed fails to concentrate its forces on the campaign map as much as a human, I think there is a gameplay argument for going in with less than a full stack.

But I'm not sure how it will play out in EB though. In RTR 6.0 Gold, on very hard, there were so many full stack enemies and the morale was so high, I ended up relying on full stacks in order to prevail.

Even in a recent late game PBM stint I did with Carthage on VH/M in vanilla, the AI (Romans) had so many full stacks, maxing out my stacks did not seem unfair.

Do other people deliberately work with smaller stacks (the Rumsfeld approach to war-fighting)?

Trithemius
03-10-2006, 11:02
Do other people deliberately work with smaller stacks (the Rumsfeld approach to war-fighting)?

My stacks tend to be 15+general tiles strong (three hastati, two principes, three triarii, two leves, two accensi, and two equites). I resist the urge to add another three tiles of infantry, and have even thought about "slimming down" so I can maintain three field forces where I now have two.

I find that this means that I can absorb some losses, and still maintain a battle line, during the "bashing" campaigns I wage against my Gallic neighbours.

SwordsMaster
03-10-2006, 15:01
It raises another issue which is how large your army should be. With Swordsmaster's core you are looking at around 11 Romans + 2 mercs. Almost a half strength force. Two of my cores (I like to think of each as a legion) would be 20 Roman units and it seems almost unsporting to go at the AI with that.


I don't know really.I mean, I raise armies for a specific purpose. My "policing" force (I call that the one I use to batter rebels and enemy landings inside Italy) is a "lightweight legion": 2 hastati, 1 principe, 2 samnites, 2 accensi,1 leves and maybe some leftover cavalry from other places. That makes 8 units. Easy to retrain, fairly fast, and well capable of destroying small forces without many losses. I have to say I'm glad Gaesatae don't appear as rebels in central Italy.

On the other hand, my 11-12 unit army got beaten twice by the epirotes before I managed to take Taras, so I don't think it is all that abusive to bring a full stack plus even supporting troopsif you are intending to go out for a long conquest. In my case, the force I'm taking to Greece is almost a stack and a half, the stack being combat troops, and the half being garrisons.

My rule for mercenaries is that they should be at most 20% of my home armies (the ones inside my territory) or up to 50% if campaigning outside for over a year. My conquest of Dacia in 0.72 started with 80% roman forces, but the army that came back was less than half roman, although the most experienced army I've ever had with no units below golden chevrons. Most of them died defending Athens from the Seleucids, but took 2 seleucid stacks with them which is a decent feat.

Anyhow, I tend to roleplay my most experienced units. Basically, any unit with over 3 silver chevrons is considered "guard" and is only used in extreme situations or when a family member is thrown into the fray. Only units with golden chevrons are allowed to guard the heir, and the Family leader's guard has to have more chevrons than the heir's.

This makes battles very entertaining, because you are in fact managing promotions, and you'll take care of some units more than others, you'll have cannon fodder units softening the way for the unbeaten veterans to go for the decisive blow.

I was thinking of taking this another step further and only letting a general command an experienced army if he has certain ancillaries or "Veteran" or "Good tactician" traits, but that might be pushing it. I'll see how bored I am over the next few days...

econ21
03-11-2006, 23:03
On the other hand, my 11-12 unit army got beaten twice by the epirotes before I managed to take Taras, so I don't think it is all that abusive to bring a full stack plus even supporting troopsif you are intending to go out for a long conquest. In my case, the force I'm taking to Greece is almost a stack and a half, the stack being combat troops, and the half being garrisons.

Yes, I can see that. My 10 unit legion got awfully cut up besieging Bononia when army of rebellious Latins tried to relieve the town to help the poor gestatae and their pals hunkered up there. :sweatdrop: All my veteran units were seriously depleted (down to about 30 men each) and that's a genuine loss given I have a "no retraining" houserule.


I was thinking of taking this another step further and only letting a general command an experienced army if he has certain ancillaries or "Veteran" or "Good tactician" traits, but that might be pushing it. I'll see how bored I am over the next few days...

I don't know if you have seen this guide to playing as a "true Roman":

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/index.php?showtopic=12035

It's for RTR but has lots of great ideas that would work in EB and vanilla RTW too. For example, I liked its ideas about linking general's roles to their age. It was funny in EB when I stuck Cotta in an army as a "second" general, thinking he could be a military tribune as the guide suggests for a youngster. Next turn EB gave him the trait of being a "Tribuni Militia". It was just so cool. :2thumbsup:

Teleklos Archelaou
03-11-2006, 23:06
I would break though and allow certain ancillaries to accompany campaigns into hostile territory - namely scouts or geographers or at least someone who can help organize supply lines. Leaving scouts in a big city instead of sending them out is not really helpful. And you'll need generals who can manage a campaign well logistically.

Love that story about Cotta!

Spartiate
03-11-2006, 23:44
Love playing as the Romani and managing the handicap of not being able to recruit Roman units outside my main 5 Italian cities.I also refuse to recruit Libyan units in Sicily and North Africa as i feel this is an exploit.

Currently i have veteran armies getting ferried back to Roma for retraining every dozen or so turns and the same fleets bringing back Rorarii for garrison duty in former Karthadast cities.This means most of my armies have maybe a 3rd of their slots taken up by mercs as it takes at least 7 turns to get units on board ships at Carthage, sail all the way to Roma and then retrain and sail back.

My armies in Africa consist of 4 units of Triarii, 3 Principes, 3 Hastati, 3 Luces Epos and a couple of units of whatever phalanx units they have available down there.Add a General and we are good to go.

In Gaul i have 6 Triarii with 6 Principes plus 3 Soteras and 3 of those expensive merc cavalry that are available in Northern Italy.The ones with 8 as their missile attack..........bloody good units those.The Soteras are mainly for taking care of the first hit-points of Gaesatae.Everyone rushes the Triarii while the Principes flank,fire,and engage in hand to hand.Those skirmishing cavalry are used mainly to flank and stop the enemy doing likewise to me.

Again, my injured units travel back to Roma while i wait for Rorarii garrisons to arrive before pushing on.I could Garrison with some of the cheap Gallic units but i feel it would be unrealistic.

I haven't reached the Polybian Reforms yet, but i hope to hell i can recruit some Roman units outside Italy when it happens.

econ21
03-12-2006, 00:43
Love that story about Cotta!

Yes, it gets better. Cotta was actually too young to be properly used as military tribune at the beginnning of the game. The "true Roman" guide says put the 19 year olds in an Academy to be schooled. But I could not afford that luxury early in the game. And guess what? Now he's 27, Cotta has just got the "unschooled" trait! :book: :no: Excellent.

Later, I did send an adopted youngster to Rome to study in the Academy and he picked up some good retinue but no noticable "fighting" traits (well, he was a minion...). I was debating whether to force the poor chap into the field to act as a tribune and get some combat experience. The next turn, he got the Tribune Militia trait, so that decided it - he had to pack his bags and leave Rome. :sweatdrop: For some reason, he's got an enormous bodyguard, so he is actually quite handy covering one flank of my 10 unit legion (my lone equites unit covers the other).

Family members are a little bland in RTW, but in EB, they come alive.

QwertyMIDX
03-12-2006, 00:56
I haven't reached the Polybian Reforms yet, but i hope to hell i can recruit some Roman units outside Italy when it happens.

Nope, not till Marian. Although the update Polybian reforms (when we add them) will allow you more cities in Italy than can trian romans, basically southern italy and northern italy become "homelands" too with the Polybian reforms.

SwordsMaster
03-12-2006, 01:58
I don't know if you have seen this guide to playing as a "true Roman":

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035

It's for RTR but has lots of great ideas that would work in EB and vanilla RTW too. For example, I liked its ideas about linking general's roles to their age. It was funny in EB when I stuck Cotta in an army as a "second" general, thinking he could be a military tribune as the guide suggests for a youngster. Next turn EB gave him the trait of being a "Tribuni Militia". It was just so cool.


I hand't seen the guide, but I have done the informal "tribuni" thing but only for "father and son" generals. Otherwise, all my unused characters are sitting in Rome to represent it as the "centre" and "heart" of power and where all the significant men of the republic are. It is a bit of a bugger to ship generals from there to the front whenever the CO dies. I also do the retirement thing when the general hits 60 (although mostly they don't last that long).

I don't keep potential "generals" in settlements unless they don't have an army to command and are in Rome, which of course explains why my governors have more children.

pezhetairoi
03-12-2006, 15:15
I have a supply system of generals, and a pretty efficient conveyor belt to ship them to wherever they're needed, whether there's a new consular-praetorian army being mustered for operations, or because the previous general was KIA/died in his bed. Essentially the youngest ones are at the frontlines, while the oldest ones are in Italy proper. I always have two generals in an army, but they don't necessarily need to be father and son. The only times I rotate generals out of battle duty is when they pass 55 years of age and must retire, or when they get the attuned governor trait because I left them in one place for too long.

Dooz
03-12-2006, 23:01
Can someone make a guide for Rome with all these particulars for EB specifically? Army compositions, generals, all these wonderful things.

pezhetairoi
03-15-2006, 03:51
I could, but what sort of guide exactly? Some sort of elucidation of the descr_strat file, is that what you're asking? I used to do something like that for RTW, but lost my soft copy...

Dooz
03-15-2006, 11:00
Sort of like https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1091575&postcount=1 :smile:

Cheexsta
03-22-2006, 05:01
With the auxilia, I just represent Italian allies with normal Roman units or Samnites. I tend to stay away from the new Greek units available in southern Italy, though. Something about Hoplites in a Roman army just doesn't feel right.

Trithemius
03-22-2006, 05:38
With the auxilia, I just represent Italian allies with normal Roman units or Samnites. I tend to stay away from the new Greek units available in southern Italy, though. Something about Hoplites in a Roman army just doesn't feel right.

I feel the same way, although it has been tempting to switch over to mercenary phalangites and thureophoroi while campaigning in Greece. I use local troops (taxeis hoplitai and toxotai) as my garrisons though.

LorDBulA
03-22-2006, 21:27
Something about Hoplites in a Roman army just doesn't feel right.
You can say that again. Not only it doesnt feel right but it also doesnt have much sense.
Aither you have to drop your mobility so you can use your phalanx or you have to use phalanx as sword troops. It doesnt make much sense.
Once i hired phalanx troops in RTR i think. They never enter the fight and was total waste of money. They just dont fit to roman way of fighting.
Ofcource this is all past Polybian reforms.

econ21
03-22-2006, 21:51
Ofcource this is all past Polybian reforms.

Well, I agree it does not feel right (and I try to avoid it) but as to its efficacy, you rather give the game away with this caveat. I find the early triarii quite useful. Yes, it's partly because they have uber stats. But even so, I suspect the phalanx formation can be useful for even a Roman style army in a few situations. Firstly, they seem perfect for pinning gestatae. Secondly, they are good for pinning other phalanxes. So, not essential and often unused, but sometimes very useful.

Disciple of Tacitus
03-23-2006, 20:48
What to use as Roman allied troops... ... ... ??

Well, I haven't played the Romani yet, but am deep involved in a Iberian campagin (still v.73 though). And I can tell you what the AI is using for Roman allied troops. Currently we are involved in turf war over Tolosa.
The romans have been constantly fielding an army of a few core roman units - 1 Triari, some principes, and a few other units - and masses of Gaulish warriors recruited locally. I have to give credit to the EB team -:2thumbsup: - this seems historically accurate. For the last few years/turns we have been going back and forth. He recruits from Tolosa and Massillia and I pull troops up from Iberia. We have great fun beating each other up on the Riveria.



THEN... the REAL ROMANS show up. :furious3: A 14 unit army. With 10 units of Triarii. 10!!!! As you can imagine, I have nothing that can beat these uber warriors. :no: My horse javlineers (4 units) unloaded everything into the back of 2 Triarii units and killed maybe 3 guys total.
The average "javlin-shower" from my milites, cursii, and caetreiuauiuii (sp!?!) got about the same. Hand to hand was not much prettier. A resounding defeat was had. :skull: :skull: :skull:

Of course, I saved before I went into combat - knowing the odds were against me - so I can try again. :wall: And I will. again... and again. There MUST be a way to break them!!!
Anyway, I will try a few different tactics and let everyone know. But the point of my "two cents" here is that I believe the EB team's zone of recruitment is making sense and historically accurate. ('cept that group of 10 triarii units walking into my cities ... damn romans)

QwertyMIDX
03-23-2006, 21:23
The Triari are more than a bit uber, they'll be nerfed by the 1.5 version at the latest.

Disciple of Tacitus
03-24-2006, 18:49
The Triari are more than a bit uber, they'll be nerfed by the 1.5 version at the latest.


...:coffeenews: ....~:shock: ...:jumping: ...~:cheers:

Yeahhhhhhh! I thought it was just me at first!! So instead of trying to beat uber triarii ...:wall: ... I will download .74 and go bug hunting! Anything to help out!

pezhetairoi
03-25-2006, 01:47
...trust me, you can't beat them triarii in the field. The only way to beat them is to bring them to attack across a chokepoint, or into a position where you can concentrate everything on one unit. Which is, as you may have noticed, impossible.

abou
03-28-2006, 06:36
No, not my triarii!

So does this mean that all Roman cities with Type I governments will be able train the Republican/Polybian units when 0.8 rolls out?

By the way, how is development on 0.8? Is there a roadmap that the team follows or is there a certain criteria before the next version and it just gets done when it is done?

cunctator
03-28-2006, 09:59
Exactly.

Imperator Silas
03-28-2006, 12:37
~;)
Since the Romans only used local or mercenary cavalry, Gaulic and Numidian would do for that group. For archers, Cretians and Skythians would seem to be a good idea.

Imperator Silas
03-29-2006, 03:08
Friends, Romans, Boardsmen! Lend me your ears so I may tell you of Rome's secret of power. Rome had not recruited it's army all from Romans. The strength came not only from her iron Maniple and Legion, but from mercenaries recruited from her allies and conquests that were welded to each legion or general's forces to became standard support for maximum tactical power. Numidians from conquered Tunis and Gauls from submitting tribes formed the standard Cavalry force in western campaigns. Caesar was forced to abandon Britain partially because his cavalry support were blown back to port. For long-range support, Cretian, and later Skythian archers, very skilled, very useful.:rtwyes: