WotS Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II [Archive]

econ21

06-16-2006, 15:18

This thread is devoted to in-character communications about the Rome Total Realism Platinum PBM explained here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65972

For all out of character business - including volunteering to join the campaign - please post in the out of character thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65973

This thread should be for Senate business only.

On a personal note, I will post in two strictly separate capacities: as Senate Speaker (which I will preface by SENATE SPEAKER and write in normal type) and as an ordinary participant (which I will preface by the name of my avatar, currently Quintus, and write in italics).

During formal sessions of the Senate (every 10 turns of the game), motions can be proposed. Each motion requires TWO seconders before it can be voted on.

Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.

================================================== ========
SENATE ANNOUNCEMENTS

The Senate is open for the proposal of motions until 6pm UK time Saturday. Voting will then be open for 24 hours.

Motions proposed this session:

Motion 10.1: This house authorizes the First Consul to sell or give away Debeltos upon its capture to any neutral nation.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa

Motion 10.2: This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.3: This house instructs and authorizes the First Consul to seek an alliance with the Seleucid Empire.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa

Motion 10.4: If Byzantium is captured, this house instructs the First Consul to finish off the Greeks by taking also Nicomedia, and authorizes him to give Nicomedia back to the Seleucid Empire (from whom it was taken).
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Numerius Aureolus, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.5: No attack will be made on a Macedonian city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius, Quintus Libo, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.6: No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.7: Assassins will be sent out to kill Argeos of Pharsalus and will continue to make attempts on his life until he is dead.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Decius Curtius, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.8: No provinces will be conquered except those specified by the previous legislation authorizing expansion to the Danube. This Motion will be void if Rome is attacked by any currently neutral nation.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.9: The Consul must attempt return all Legions to full strength by the end of his term and should prioritize the construction of a paved road network in as many provinces as possible.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo

(Constitutional Amendment) Motion 10.10: If Rome does not share a land border with a hostile nation and no land battle has been fought against that nation in 10 years, the Consul may use RomeSage to lower the difficulty level to Easy only for an instant to allow a ceasefire to be negotiated with this enemy. No other actions of any kind may be taken while the difficulty is lowered and it must be returned to Very Hard immediately after the negotiations are complete.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

(Constitutional Amendment revised) Motion 10.11:
(1) Candidates standing for First Consul can specify whether they wish to serve full terms (5 years) or half terms (2.5 years).
(2) No candidate may serve more than 5 years in any given 15 year period.
(3) First Consuls may delegate powers to pro-Consuls provided that they indicate that is their intention during their candidature (the pro-Consul need not be named).
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius, Numerius Aureolus

Motion 10.12: If Motion 10.10 passes, the Consul will make peace with Carthage on terms that he deems to be honorable to both sides.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Marcellius Aemilius, Decius Curtius, Publius Pansa, Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.13: Debeltos is to be raided - sacked, then abandoned.
Proposed: Marcellius Aemilius
Seconded: Publius Pansa

Motion 10.14: This motion authorizes the Consul to start actively conquering Iberian lands. This motion authorises a declaration of war on Iberia.
Proposed: Marcellius Aemilius
Seconded: Galerius Vatinius

Motion 10.15: In order to secure the Republic's eastern border, this house instructs the First Consul to completely expel the forces of Ptolemy from Thrace, and to capture Byzantium. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on the Ptolemaic Empire.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 10.16 The Republic must re-think it's manner of deployment for Rome's legions and other defensive forces and come up with a suitable plan to better ensure the security of our growing nation's borders.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius

Motion 10.17 The three churigeons in Rome are to be sent without delay to Marcellus Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius and Quintus Libo. Any new churigeons spawned are to be sent to other Lower House members with frontline commands, starting with Numerius Aureolus.[/i]
Proposed: Numerius Aureolus
Seconded: Marcellus Aemilius, Manius Coruncanius, Tiberius Coruncanius, Quintus Libo

Motion 10.18 (Constitutional Ammendment): To ammend the constitution to allow acting Consuls to procure any such militarily relevant ancillaries as necessary for his campaign from other senators. These ancillaries must provide campaign or battle assistance only. Managerial and influential assistants do not fall within the perview of this motion. FURTHERMORE, the Consul is NOT empowered to unload existing ancillaries to accept new ancillaries.
Proposed: Galerius Vatinius

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-17-2006, 16:59

I would like to express my sadness for the loss of Consul Quintus of his wife Faustina. She was well known as a respectable roman matron and I share his feelings at the loss of my mother-in-law. Thankfully, his extended family will help him to overcome this sad event.

Further I would like to congratulate legate Publius Leavinus and our acting consul Augustus Verginius on their great victories. The lands of Cispine Gaul are flooded with slaves and can now be developed further. The riches of Alesia have provided us with large amounts of badly-needed treasure with which we can pay for this.

Hail Roma !

Glaucus

06-17-2006, 17:57

Indeed, congradulations to Senator Publius Laevinus, I think I triumph is in order when he returns to Italy. To kill over 1000 Gauls for only 8 Romans is a victory sent from Mars and Jupiter themselves. I shall go offer a lamb myself in thanks.

I adamantly oppose any alliance with the Kingdom of Macedon. Need I remind you senators, that the Heirs of Phillip and Alexander are allied to the Greek Cities, our enemies. In my opinion, we should not even be considering talking to them about alliances. I say let Illyria and Thrace burn Pella to the ground! Why should we care? We should never consider an alliance, and immedietly refuse any offer as soon as they come. Those are just my thoughts senators, I would not want to ally with any Hellinic people, for as long as they stand against us.

x-dANGEr

06-17-2006, 18:28

Vibius Pleminius shrubs and leaves, with silence on his way out

TinCow

06-17-2006, 21:04

*A messenger rushes in, sweaty from a long ride. He bows briefly before turning to the door. A dozen slaves, carrying 6 large chests between them, shuffle into the room. They reach the middle of the floor and drop the chests, opening them for all to see. As the glitter of mounds of gold, silver and other valuables shines in the light, the messenger unrolls a scroll, from which he begins to read.*

Glory to Rome! Glory to the Republic!

Senators, I bring to you a sample of the wealth the Expedition has recovered from Gaul. Nearly 25,000 dinarii and thousands of slaves have been taken from the Gallic settlements, and the conquest is not yet even complete. Gergovia, Comata, Alesia, Remi and Gwenea have fallen before the might of the Republic and been left a wasteland. The only untouched settlement, Bourges, will fall this very winter.

With the mass of slave labor we have obtained, every single Cisalpine settlement has been turned into a small city. Even now Governor's Villas are being built or nearing completion in nearly all of them. Road construction will begin in some at the turn of the season and all of our northern territories should have roads by the end of my Consulship. The wealth of Gaul, much of it looted Roman gold and treasure from the time of Brennus, has been sent to the treasury and invested in the Republic. No less than 9 provinces have had auxilia infrastructure created in them. Governor's Villas and Palaces have gone up all over Italy to allow proper governance of our territories. Countless temples have been erected to glorify the Gods and appease some of our more troubled provinces. A safe harbor has been built to increase trade in Arretium and paved roads are being constructed in Rome as we speak.

With these investments and proper managerial control, income has increased by 2,500 dinarii per season and is still growing. Our treasury stands at over 14,000 dinarii as we speak, and many great building projects will begin this very winter. Our armies our strong, the Republic is strong. We have defeated all those who have opposed us... and yet there is much work to be done.

As was debated and agreed upon in this Senate, I have immediately abandoned all of the Gallic settlements which I have taken. This, and the steadfast determination or our Legions, has allowed me to strike harder and faster than I could ever have imagined. Publius Laevinus believed I could only take three settlements. I said I would take them all, but I truly thought it would take my entire term to do so. Yet now, only halfway through, the Gallic Expedition is almost complete!

As Roman men laid waste to their homes and their fields, I thought deeply about the future. As expected, the Gauls immediately moved to re-occupy the cesspits which they had lost. We know these territories are of no value to us and would require an excessive expenditure on arms to hold. We do not wish to keep them, yet the Gauls would eventually rebuild and send more warbands at us from them. Even now, Gergovia and Comata have been re-occupied and only last season another force assaulted Legio I at the Massilia crossing.

So, Senators, I have found a solution to this problem. To the north lies the tribe of Germania. They are smelly, pants-wearing barbarians, true, but they have remained civil and peaceful with the Republic. They have not once made an aggressive move towards us and they are heavily invested in a conflict with the Thracians. They are not a threat to us in the least. For this reason, I have turned over control of Alesia, Remi and Gwenea to them. No more shall these places be used to raise arms against Rome. No more shall we need to spend Roman blood to pacify them. Do not fear the German control of these provinces, they remain wastelands and can serve the northern tribes no more than they could serve the Gauls. Now, however, the settlements belong to one who is at peace with us, rather than one who is at war.

Senators, I say to you that it is within our power, here and now, to rid the world of the Gauls once and for all. Before winter is done, I shall assault Bourges and clense the last bastion of Gallic power. Let me give this to Germania as well. Like the others, it is far from our borders and of no use to us. It shall be left a wasteland like the rest and shall benefit them not. Furthermore, I implore you to allow me to finish the Gauls and send them all to Hades. After Bourges, they will have but the reoccupied settlements of Gergovia and Comata under their influence. Legio I and Legio III are both now stationed at the Massilia crossing. If this body would permit it, I will ask Lucius Aemilius and Publius Laevinus to lead their men across. Within three to six months, they can take both remaining settlements, eliminating the threat once and for all! Senators, I say to you, we can be rid of the Gauls for good less than half a year from now!

Yet, what then? I note with a mix of glee and displeasure that the Iberians have almost totally driven the Carthaginians from the peninsula. This is cause for celebration, true, but it is also cause for concern. Senators, I must inform you that Iberia is an ally of Gaul. They have great masses of men under arms and will have united all of Iberia under their control within a year. They will not sit idly by, I swear to you. Even now, three of their armies are in the north, one supporting their allies near Gergovia. Once Gaul ceases to exist, there will be nothing seperating our lands from theirs. It may take a season, it may take a year, but they will invade us. They are allies of the Gauls for a reason. They are the enemies of civilized people and they will turn they will turn their eyes on the riches of the Republic.

As I said, Legio I and Legio III are ready and prepared at the Massilia crossing. Let us unleash them upon the Gauls. Let us secure Gergovia and Comata, this time for good. With a small force fortified at the crossing and with our northern border held by the peaceful Germans, Legio I alone could keep the peace in both of these provinces and protect Massilia. All three are close and Gergovia is walled, such a feat would be a simple task. This would allow Legio III, under Publius Laevinus, and the Consular I Army to make a pre-emptive strike south at the Iberians, before they can bring war to us.

I believe that with the skill and courage of Senators Publius Laevinus and Lucius Aemilius, we could secure all of southern Gaul, northeastern Iberia and the shoreline as far south as Carthago Nova before my term is complete. These are trading provinces, Senators. Carthage developed many of them, and for good reason. They would bring us much wealth in the future and would vastly aid in the long-term struggle against Carthage. Why, from these territories, future Consuls could strike at Africa from east and west simultaneously!

Think to the future, Senators. The Iberians will attack us. If we move now, we can defeat them with a pre-emptive strike and vastly enrich the Republic with trade from the lost Punic provinces in Iberia.

I await word of your decision.

Your servant,
Augustus Verginius

*The messenger finishes, rolls up the scroll, and stands to the side, waiting patiently.*

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.
Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked.
Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again.
Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of siezing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/268august-interim.zip

shifty157

06-17-2006, 21:38

I second motions 6.1 through 6.3.

I have not yet decided how it is best to deal with the Iberians as I am not very convinced that they pose an imminent threat towward our empire. If the Gaulish lands were so far from our lands that they could not be held then I wonder what our Consul plans to do with Iberia whose lands are even farther away and who is currently very much at peace with us.

Regardless I congratulate our Consul on his successes in Gaul and I wish the aid of the Gods for his final assault in the far corner of the former Gaulish empire.

I propose Motion 6.5 which states that by the end of his reign, our current Consul must have begun the process of auxiliary integration in all provinces in our empire.

If we are to support armies across the seas in Iberia as our Consul wishes then we will need a larger base of support for our military. Too long have our home lands of Rome Capua and Ancona provided the vast majority of the troops for our armies. These three cities have supported us thus far in our expansion but I fear that very soon we will have grown beyond what we can safely and easily support.

Glaucus

06-17-2006, 21:58

Well done First Consul! You have proven me wrong. I thought an expedition into Gaul would undo the Republic, but you have made us stronger then ever. I congradulate you.

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.
This is obviously the logical course of action to take, if we leave an enemy alive but wounded, one day it will recover and fight again. Raze Bourges to the ground if it pleases the troops, or leave it unscathed, I personally don't care. But that brings me to my next point:

Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked.Why should we give them more then we must? Once Gaul is gone they are gone for good. I think we should leave Bourges to Brigands. Germania may have good intentions toward us, but if they want Bourges let them expend men to do so. We should take the town, loot it, and leave. There is no need to give it to the Germans, let the locals take it, this way we can milk some taxes out of it before they civil revolt.

Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again.
I agree. I also think we should build a series of forts in order to ensure that no barbarians ever journy south into Roman lands again. I have calculated that with only 3 forts we could effectivly block any passage south from Germania to Massilia or Gergovia.

Thus I modify Motion 6.3 to this: Modified Motion 6.3:Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again. This house also authorizes the building of 3 borderforts in strategic locations so as to prevent Germania or any other barbarians from journeying south again.

Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of siezing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage.
Cheers. I also think we should attack the on the eastern coast of the continent, north of the pyrenes. The name escapes me but I know it was once Gaullic and it now Iberian.

Publius Pansa

x-dANGEr

06-17-2006, 22:34

A laugh echoes from behind, as a voice slowly approaches the hall of senate:

Senators, the title of this movement is "think to the future", but yet, it goes deep into one aspect, and by thus, leaving some other matters with no care. Our enemies to the south; the Carthagians, are occupied with their war against the Iberians, who as it seems, are not sparing them any moment. Our borders to the west are already covered by the Germanic tribes, just as those to the north. Though, the east is the course. The Kingdom of Macedonia is helping our rivals, those who grow from the Greek Cities, to come strong and powerful as the myths they tell about their gods. They are both occupied with a heated fight against the Illyrians. Not for long, though. As the Illyrians are being eaten from both sides by them, and with any further delay, we will only allow more strength to our rivals. I please you, dear Senators, to let me go on an expedition to the east. All I ask of you is a spy, and any army up to my rank. The Greek Cities armies are most likely busy on the front with the Illyrians, leaving their back cities open to a swift assault through the sea. With a spy in one of those cities, we can take one of them with the news reaching their leaders too later; allowing us to build walls, for any later assault to come, making a perfect place for the masscarce of any 'to-come' Greek armies, and a future base for the massive following expedition.

I support the motions:

Motion 6.1: Gaul shall be destroyed, never again to threaten Roman lands.

Modified Motion 6.3: Legio I and Legio III will conquer the settlements of Gergovia and Comata, never to be abandoned again. This house also authorizes the building of 3 borderforts in strategic locations so as to prevent Germania or any other barbarians from journeying south again.

About the motions:

Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked: I agree to Publius Pansa on this aspect.

Motion 6.4: A declaration of war against Iberia is authorized, with the purpose of seizing the northeastern and coastal provinces, especially those previously lost by Carthage: I'd rather see them get depleted with Carthage before we lunch any invasion, for any invasion on them will strengthen Carthage from the other side.

And I propose motion:

Motion 6.6: A small army along with a spy is to be sent to a 'backroom' Greek city, to establish a future base for a larger expedition later on, and disturb the Greek lines buying the Illyrians time to turn the tide.

Vibius Pleminius

econ21

06-17-2006, 22:37

[SENATE SPEAKER]: (sotto voce) What? The First Consul has submitted his interim report already! Why did you not fetch me earlier, foolish scribe?

(louder)Senators, excuse my late arrival. Evidently, the interim session of the Senate has opened. Some motions have already been submitted and more may be tabled. Each motion will require two seconders before it can be put to the vote.

In the light of representations made earlier, there will be three days for deliberation. The deadline for submitting motions will be Tuesday 6pm UK time. Voting will then open and will close on Wednesday 6pm.

I will now send private messages to all Senators notifying them of these arrangements.

flyd

06-17-2006, 22:47

Verginius, now you propose yet another new war in a far away land, when we still have two uncompleted wars close to home? I don't believe the Iberians will necessarily be aggressive. You point out how they were allies of Gaul, our enemies, but you fail to clearly note that they are also the enemies our Carthage, our enemy. If we attack them, we will detract from their efforts against Carthage.

Not only would it be foolish to do so, we don't have any real justificiation either. They have not been aggressive toward us. Your motive is suspect. Motion 3.13 is available should the Iberians not withdraw their armies in a reasonable amount of time after you have captured Gergovia.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-17-2006, 23:12

Senators,

I will support Motion 6.1 and Motiom 6.3.
I care not for Motion 6.2, but I will support it if the acting consul agrees to ally with the Germans at any cost, otherwise I will oppose it.
I will support Motion 6.5, but I will not hold it against the first consul if the fails in this objective, as it will be difficult one to accomplish, if not impossible.
I will also support Motion 6.6, as I applaud offensive action against the Greeks of any kind. I will accordingly propose :

Motion 6.7 : We will ally ourselves with the Illyrians at any cost, also offering to declare war on their enemy the kingdom of Macedon.

I will disregard the modification of Motion 6.3 by senator Publius Pansa, as I feel he must first reach agreement with the first consul on the amendment of this proposal.

I agree with senator Tiberius Coruncanius. Why should our republic declare war on a nation that has done us no harm ? Does the Republic not have enough enemies ? I know well senator Verginius´s dislike of barbarians, but we have no history of conflict with the Iberians. They have been most convenient to us by attacking the Cartheginian colonies in Spain. Let us welcome them as friendly neighbours and let me remind the consul that the Motion that summons to consul to ally with Iberia still stands. I expect him not to violate the edicts of the Senate. Thus I violently oppose Motion 6.4

TinCow

06-17-2006, 23:21

First, I would like to thank Senator Publius Pansa for his wise words regarding Motion 6.2. This was an aspect that never occurred to me. I agree fully with his reasoning and as such I hearby withdraw Motion 6.2.

As for Iberia, I would like to remind the Senate that Carthage has but one territory remaining in Iberia: Carthago Nova. All other provinces have been firmly lost and they have not a single army outside of the city garrison. Beyond that, their African forces are fully occupied with the Numidian war and they have made not a single move to reinforce Carthago Nova for many years. Senators, let me show you the grand Carthaginian presence in Iberia:

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/carthago.jpg

I show you this for one point and one point only: this will not occupy the Iberians for long. There are two large armies converging on it as we speak and I believe that Carthago Nova will be in Iberian hands within a year. Do any of you honestly believe they will let their large armies sit idle? No, neither do I. They will seek further conquests. I would also like to inform that Senate that the grand Iberian navy consists of a single ship, nothing more. Iberia will not send their armies overseas, especially when the African territories directly south of them are held by the Numidians, with whom they are on friendly terms. No, they will seek conquests by land. With all of Iberia secured and their only land border being with Rome, whom do you think they will turn on?

I admit, this would be an act of aggression. I have no vendetta against the Iberians, nor do I wish them ill. I propose this strike simply because I believe war will come, and come soon, whether we wish it or not. In such a situation, I would prefer to be fighting in their territory rather than ours. In addition, we already have significant forces marshalled in the area and we are ready to strike this very moment. If we withdraw and consolidate, we will lose the opportunity for an aggressive, decisive strike at a later time.

As you all know, I have often spoken about limiting conquests and strengthening the Republic from within. I do not take this stance lightly. It is only because I believe in my heart that the Iberians will move against us soon, that I propose this course of action.

Finally, I would also like to note that contrary to Senator Vibius Pleminius' statements, Illyria is not about to fall. In the past two and a half years, they have repeatedly and decisively defeated large Macedonian and Greek forces. I believe that Illyria will hold on for a long time to come and with luck, they may even retake more of their lost territories.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-17-2006, 23:40

Pah ! Consul Verginius, your arguments for assaulting Iberia fall on deaf ears here !

True, we had a score to settle with Gaul, and thus I supported your election, but now that I have read your report in full, I demand you explain yourself to the Senate in detail ! Let me quote :

For this reason, I sent Sextus Antio to meet with the Germans. He told them that the provinces were a gift from the goodwill of the Republic to their growing tribe.

I find it hard to believe the consul took this dramatic step without consulting with the senate. Does he suffer from delusions of grandeur ? You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ? I don´t believe this, my fellow senators, do my eyes play me false ? Someone wake me from this evil dream !
What next ? Shall we conquer the city states of Greece and give them to the barbarians of Thrace, and let me quote, from the goodwill of the Republic.

I feel the acting consul has overstepped the limits of his Imperium here and I demand his apology to the senate and an extensive explanation and maybe I will not impeach him.

Wishazu

06-18-2006, 00:08

Who cares if the hairy germans have received a worthless, depopulated burnt out town from us. It would only have been a drain on our resources anyway. Let all the barbarians fight amongst themselves over the ruins of Gaul. I no longer have any wish to deal with these mudhut dwellers, or anyone else who does not realise the divine supremacy of Rome.

econ21

06-18-2006, 00:24

[QUINTUS]: Senators, we are at an important cross-roads. The actions we take now will dictate the term of the next First Consul and beyond.

One observation I must make at the onset is that an Iberia army is adjacent to the settlement of their Gaulish allies at Gergovia. Consequently, I suspect that if we try to seize Gergovia and Comata as per motion 6.3, or indeed if we attempt to destroy Gaul as per motion 6.1, there is a strong risk that we provoke a war with Iberia. Hence I would urge all Senators who oppose motion 6.4 to withdraw their support for these earlier motions and to vote them down.

Senators, there is another possibility: that the First Consul return to Massilia after his historic raid, leaving Gergovia and Comata as Gaulish "buffer states" between us, Iberia and the Germans. I doubt the Iberians will declare war on us if their lands do not adjoin ours. And Gaul may be hostile, but with only two decimated settlements incapable of raising troops, I cannot see that they would ever be able to breach the ford at Massilia.

Senators, if we try to eliminate Gaul or to hold Gergovia and Comata, I fear we will soon become embroiled in war with Iberia. Until this day, I had not heard one voice in the Senate argue for a war with that power. Were there not calls for an alliance to be made with her, not long ago? I fear we are being sucked into war that we did not plan for little more reason that the momentum created by the First Consul's raids. Yes, we have the men available to invade Iberia, but would not those men be better employed against our existing enemies, Greece and Carthage, rather than making new foes?

The First Consul is to be congratulated on the magnificent military victories he has achieved on his great raid. He has effectively broken the power of Gaul - she will not rise again. In the last election, I almost alone agreed with senator Publius Laevinus that the time was right to bring down Gaul. But the problem is that the First Consul has delivered much of Gaul to the Germans, not to us. And the Germans are a rather more formiddable power than Gaul - a power that we have never intended to fight. Moreover, if we move to occupy what little remains of Gaul, we are likely to be sucked into a war with both Germany and Iberia.

Senators, the First Consul promised us a period of consolidation. I believe this would best be achieved by him sticking to his manifesto plan and returning to Massilia after his great raid has been completed. In doing this, he will have effectively destroyed one of our most troublesome enemies. And through his raids, he will have enriched the Republic with gold and slaves. Returning to Massilia, we will be in a most defensible position, without lands bordering Iberia or Germany. The next First Consul will then be free to devote his reign to another project, without being committed to a new war with Iberia.

Senators, I propose:

Motion 6.8: This house instructs the First Consul, after raiding Bourges, to return all Roman troops back to the Republic. The raided Gallic settlements of Gergovia and Comata are to be left as buffers between us and Iberia and Germany. This motion invalidates motions 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4.

I call upon any of the many Senators who voted for the First Consul to second this motion and insist that the First Consul honour his manifesto commitments.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-18-2006, 00:47

It is with a glad heart that I see that I am not the only voice of reason amongst us. I embrace the sentiments voiced by consul Quintus.

I will second Motion 6.8 and withdraw support from Motion 6.1 and Motion 6.3 accordingly. That said, I still believe Gergovia would be a strategic stronghold for us and hope consul Quintus will amend Motion 6.8 accordingly.

I still await a response of acting consul Verginius...

Glaucus

06-18-2006, 00:55

You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ?

Senator, if you remember, it was in our plans since the begining to leave those lands to the barbarians. Why should we not raise our standing with the Germans, since we are not to keep those lands anyway? The Consul is not a Dictator, it is true, but I feel what he did was quite within his rights and I fully support his decision.

As to you, ex-First Consul Quintus, I understand your opinions and your reasoning. I would like to see Roman legions marching through Carthago, but right now, our troops are near Iberia, and Iberia is allied to our enemy. I firmly believe that if Iberia did not want a gladius in her rib, she should not have allied with out enemy. Simply put, the ally of my enemy is my enemy, no questions asked. Iberia is next in line, and with the border forts I have proposed, in addition to Consul Augustus Verginius's decision to gift Alesia to Germania, we have nothing to fear from the North.

flyd

06-18-2006, 00:55

I hereby second Motion 6.8.

Senator Aemilius has brought up an interesting point about diplomacy, and I am wondering what the Senate's opinion is on this. I propose the following motion:

Motion 6.9: This house believes that Consul Verginius exceeded his authority while engaging in unauthorized diplomatic relations with the Germans, and condemns him for doing so. Note: this motion does not impeach the Consul.

Some background inforamation. The Consul gave away large areas of Gaul to the Germans without first consulting the Senate. Whether you believe that this was the strategically correct or incorrect thing to do is irrelevant for this motion. Instead, the question is whether the Consul is allowed to make such deals, without informing the Senate or seeking their authorization. I feel this motion would set an important precedent.

Glaucus

06-18-2006, 00:58

That motion is an insult to this very house! Have you forgotten that the Consul has Imperium? He can do as he likes, and as our laws say, he must only consult the senate when dealing with Alliances or Wars. He did not deal with those, so whatever he did was appropriate. He himself took those settlements, and it was our plan always to leave them. First Consul Augustus Verginius has led Rome very well, and, personally, I would offer myself up before allowing any shame or dishonor fall on his shoulders.

econ21

06-18-2006, 01:05

[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, I regret that I cannot amend motion 6.8 to authorise occupation of Gerogiva at this point. I agree that ultimately it would be a fine strategic settlement to occupy. And indeed, I have no objection to the Senate in due course authorising a move into what was formerly Gaul in the future, when we are ready to confront Iberia and Germany.

However, the purpose of the motion is to avoid us being drawn in to an ill considered war with Iberia at the moment. Right now, an Iberian army is camped outside Gergovia, ready to defend the settlement for their allies the Gaul if we attack. If we take Gergovia, I believe war with Iberia will be very likely because (a) there is a chance Iberian armies will defend adjacent Gaulish allies; (b) it is likely that Iberian armies in the province will be within our newly occupied territory, thus entitling the First Consul to strike at them as invaders; (c) the occupation will make the Republic adjacent to Iberia, making us the natural target for expansion by that power.

I have no objection to waging war with Iberia if they invade our lands or if the Senate decides it is in the best interest of the Republic. But the purpose of motion 6.8 is to prevent us stumbling into a fresh war of conquest when the will of the Senate was for a period of consolidation.

I hope Senator Lucius Aemilius can still second the motion unamended and that an additional seconder can be found.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-18-2006, 01:11

I hereby second the Motion 6.9 proposed by senator Tiberius Coruncanius, condemning acting consul Verginius for freely giving away conquered territory to another nonallied nation.

Firstly, let me not detract from the successes that acting consul Verginius has brought the Republic. He fulfilled all the promises I had for him and more besides. Our lands are overflowing with slaves and gold.

But this is not the point !

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans. Our citizens will not sleep better at night knowing that we now have the ferocious Germans to our north instead of Gauls. On the contrary.

Senator Publius Pansa, the acting consul can not do as he likes, he is not a king, thank the heavens, or a Dictator. I feel he greatly overstepped his Imperium here. Also, your arguments for attacking Iberia cut no wood with me. Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again. We still have an active Motion suggesting an alliance with Iberia for the sake of Jupiter.

EDIT : In view of consul Quintus´s arguments I will continue to support Motion 6.8

Glaucus

06-18-2006, 01:31

Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again.

Why would we attack Carthage? We invaded Sicily with no grounds. This time we have grounds. They ally with our enemies, aiding them! We must send a message to the world, if you stand with our enemies, you stand against us!

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans

The Germans like us! We gave them land are friendly with them. Would you rather us leave lands to a broken people, so that the Germans can come south with a blood lust and ready for more conquest? Since we gave them land, the like us and will not feel the need to expand any time soon. Up until this date, the Germans have hardly expanded at all, thus far they are a calm people.

On a different note, could First Consul Augustus Verginius consider changing his original Motion 6.3 to include the construction of forts? I believe Senator Vibius Pleminius has voiced his support of it.

shifty157

06-18-2006, 02:11

Why would we attack Carthage? We invaded Sicily with no grounds. This time we have grounds. They ally with our enemies, aiding them! We must send a message to the world, if you stand with our enemies, you stand against us!

The Germans like us! We gave them land are friendly with them. Would you rather us leave lands to a broken people, so that the Germans can come south with a blood lust and ready for more conquest? Since we gave them land, the like us and will not feel the need to expand any time soon. Up until this date, the Germans have hardly expanded at all, thus far they are a calm people.

Senator I am sorry but I can not let this pass by. Your arguments are weak and generally have no basis. More importantly I could easily crush your arguments using your own logic.

That said I would advise looking for more solid arguments to support war against Iberia as there are several much better ones.

I will support Motion 6.5, but I will not hold it against the first consul if the fails in this objective, as it will be difficult one to accomplish, if not impossible.

Quite the contrary Senator my motion is not nearly impossible. Indeed after examining the latest maps of our empire I was pleased to find that our current Consul has done a great deal to further this necessary integration already i his reign. Now only a few settlements remain without having even begun this process and I believe it is time to make a dedicated effort to get these last stragglers on the road to auxiliary integration. It is a fully realizeable goal and one I think well worth the time and effort.

That said I would also like to present a confusion in word definitions to the senate. To impeach an officeholder merely means to find them guilty of an offense. Impeachment does in no way imply removement from office. For an official to be removed from office he must of course first be impeached however. Many officeholders throughout history have been impeached but allowed to retain their post in office.

Also might I point out to the Senate that our current Consul cannot be impeached for the great freedom he has taken in his dealings with the Germanians as there is no standing provision specifically against his actions. Therefore I motion that the current standing motion for impeachment be struck down due to this technicality as it is compeltely without basis and I encourage my fellow senators to learn from this oversight in legislature and accomidate for it in the future.

econ21

06-18-2006, 02:15

[QUINTUS]: I must speak against motion 6.9. While I too was shocked to hear that we have given Germany settlements in Gaul, the First Consul was acting within his authority to do so. If Senator Tiberius Coruncanius wishes to restrict the authority of First Consuls in diplomacy in future, he should submit a simple motion that does so, not criticise the First Consul for doing what he was perfectly entitled to do so.

So much for the legality of the First Consul's action - but was it wise? Shocked though I was, I confess I now see a certain logic to it. With the enslavement of their people and the destruction of their buildings, it was inevitable that Gaul would fall. Since Germany is currently more preoccupied than Iberia, I can see why the First Consul wished them to be the ones to step into the power vacuum.

Personally, I have hitherto been in favour of our own Republic occupying Gaul. But given that the Senate decided on a strategy of raiding, I cannot fault the First Consul's execution of that strategy to date. Indeed, rather than condemn him, I believe we should congratulate him on his accomplishments in the battlefield and on the rapid pace of his progress.

However, as evidenced by motion 6.8, I do have grave doubts about the wisdom of his plans for the rest of his term of office.

flyd

06-18-2006, 02:17

Also might I point out to the Senate that our current Consul cannot be impeached for the great freedom he has taken in his dealings with the Germanians as there is no standing provision specifically against his actions. Therefore I motion that the current standing motion for impeachment be struck down due to this technicality as it is compeltely without basis and I encourage my fellow senators to learn from this oversight in legislature and accomidate for it in the future.

Firstly, there is no motion for impeachement. The motion you refer to specifically states that it is not an impeachement. Perhaps you should reread the full text of the motion.

Secondly, the Senate can impeach the Consul for whatever reason they wish. Do not try to undermine the Senate's power.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-18-2006, 02:22

Senator Publius Pansa,

Consul Quintus deemed the torture and killing of honest Roman traders on false pretenses of espionage a fair reason to attack the Carthiginians and the senate supported his decison.

The Iberians may have allied themselves with our enemies, the Gauls, but they are also the enemies of our enemies, the Cartheginians ! And I say the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Striking out at Iberia would be a dishonorable act and condemn us in the eyes of the world as a ruthless agressor.

I feel overwhelmed with joy that that the Germans like us. I can hardly contain my happiness. I suggest we return the islands and Sicily to the Cartheginians in the hope that they will like us too. While we are at it, why don't we give back the Greek colonies ? Perhaps the Greeks will like us too then ?
The Germans have never expanded because they are weak. Now we've made them strong. Perhaps now they'll decide to march on Rome. Even the Gauls fear the ferocious Germans. We have exchanged one evil for a bigger one. Anyone who has met a German will heap scorn on your claims that they are a 'calm' people.

EDIT :
I agree that Motion 6.9 is a condemnation, instead of an impeachment. However, I still feel the acting consul has greatly overstepped the bounds of his Imperium and will thus attempt to impeach him if he does not explain himself further and apologize for the exercise of a decision which I feel belonged to this house.

shifty157

06-18-2006, 02:26

Firstly, there is no motion for impeachement. The motion you refer to specifically states that it is not an impeachement. Perhaps you should reread the full text of the motion.

Secondly, the Senate can impeach the Consul for whatever reason they wish. Do not try to undermine the Senate's power.

Might I direct you Senator to my second paragraph which showcases the confusion in terms which occured causing the odd owrding in the motion. An impeachment and the act of finding the Consul guilty of an offense is the exact same thing. They are interchangeable and therefore the motion proposed very much is a motion for impeachment.

That said I am not attempting to undermine the senate's power and please enver again accuse me of such an act or I will be forced to propose a motion asking for your reprimanding by the senate and temporary suspension due to overtly libelous intent implying that I am being treasonous.

That said the Senate can only impeach the firts Consul if and when he willfully breaks one of the rules laid down by the Senate to guide him. Since we have no law regarding the giving away of lands then our Consul cannot be found guilty of breaking a law. It is equivalent to me saying that you are under arrest for wearing that gaudy red and green toga you always wear even though there is no law against it (though perhaps there should be. the law of decency and taste perhaps).

econ21

06-18-2006, 02:30

[QUINTUS]: Ah, it is good to see my friend, Publius Laevinus, here at the Senate. But I beseech you with regard to motion 6.5, what is this obsession with auxilia buildings? Why is it necessary to tie up all our settlements creating facilities for training troops? It is absurd! We can easily supply all our needs from our Roman provinces and those provinces already earmarked for the recruitment of auxiliaries. How many men, Legate Publius Laevinus, did you lose in your last glorious battle with the Gauls? Eight? Must each settlement be forced to contribute a finger or toe for the replacements for these eight fallen heroes?

Senators, we have other priorities! There are still markets to be built and roads to be laid. Roma itself needs investing in so its population may grow and we can ultimately establish the most advanced metalworks to equip our troops with the finest weapons and armour. The great ports of Tarentum and Syracuse do not have armouries for their ships, nor have we constructed a single warship! Our largest settlements have poor sanitation and I fear terrible plague may strike at any moment. Let us invest wisely on a case by case basis and not pander to this obsession with militarising the smallest hamlet!

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-18-2006, 02:44

As to the question of technicalities surrounding Motion 6.9 I will say this :

I see Motion 6.9 as an expression of disfavour/condemnation by the senate. This will not remove the consul from office.

However, I might exercize my right to propose a Motion to impeach the consul, which if passed by 2/3 of the senate, will remove the consul from office.

Further there is the argument that there is no specific law laid down by this house regarding the giving away of conquered land to nonallied nations.
I see this as a non-argument. There are also no laws against burning down Roma, but that is no reason to putting it to the torch. There is such a thing as common sense.

flyd

06-18-2006, 02:46

Senator Laevinus, I suppose there has been some confusion in terms. I ask the Speaker to ammend Motion 6.9 by removing the impeachment note. However, the motion is perfectly valid. The Senate may condemn the Consul's action if it does not find them satisfactory. The question at hand is if the Consul is justified in performing diplomatic agreements without notifying and/or requesting the authorization of the Senate. There is indeed no past law specifying that. This motion would solicit the opinion of the Senate, and would act as a precedent for the future.

GeneralHankerchief

06-18-2006, 02:51

Consul Aemilius, would you have preferred to keep the settlements in the hands of the Gauls, who have and would continue to attack us?

As to Consul Virginius' victories, I congratulate him, they are well-deserved. We have significantly filled the treasury- let us invest the money. If the Iberians are to attack us, let them. They can have the settlements west of Massilia. They can then futiley waste their men trying to take Massilia itself. For this I second Motion 6.8.

Glaucus

06-18-2006, 05:05

I feel overwhelmed with joy that that the Germans like us. I can hardly contain my happiness. I suggest we return the islands and Sicily to the Cartheginians in the hope that they will like us too. While we are at it, why don't we give back the Greek colonies ? Perhaps the Greeks will like us too then ?

Your sarcasm betrays you. We are not at war with Germania, last time I checked. Why should we not want to improve our standing with them. If we hadn't been so kind to them, they WOULD be attacking Roma now. Thanks to the First Consul's good judgment, we now have a very easily defended border and a neighbor who sees us as the good side of sastisfactory. If we were not at war with Greece and Carthage, then yes we should be kind to them, but we are at war. You cannot compare Carthage and Germania, one nation we are at war with, the other we are not.

As for Germania being calm, I stand by what I said. They have not expanded at all in the enitre history of the Republic. Check this refernece I have found in the senate library: Library Reference (https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/map_history_270.jpg)

Germania has reamined within it's boundaries, and as far as I know, you have never met a German, so how in all of Pluto's Hell should you know how violent a German is or isn't? The facts are here, Germania IS a peaceful nation.

TinCow

06-18-2006, 06:18

Senators, where is your honor?

I embark on a great campaign against or oldest enemy. At great risk to my own life, I have destroyed their ability to make war against us. I have done everything in my power to ensure that Rome is protected first and foremost. I see an opportunity to avoid future danger and so, according to the laws of this body, I have opened debate on the issue in the proper manner and with reasoned argument.

Yet for all of this, I receive hatred, spite and impeachment! Where were the calls for impeachment when Quintus declared war on Carthage without Senatorial approval? Who have I declared war on without approval? Is a man not allowed to request a debate on an issue which he believes in?

For shame Senators! You are a disgrace to this body and to the very notion of a Republic!

I shall now specifically address the ridiculous accusations that have been leveled against me.

Regarding the territories given to Germania. It is a total fallacy of thought that I would ever have handed them over freely without spending maximum efforts in an attempt to secure both an alliance and monetary tribute for Rome. Sextus Antio discussed the issue twice with both the Thracian and the Germans. Neither was willing to give either a formal alliance or any kind of monetary compensation for the territories. Wisely, they recognized the total worthlessness of these territories and did not wish to pay for them.

At this point, I was confronted with a situation. Rome could not receive anything of value for these provinces, regardless of how much we may have wished to. I then saw two choices: leave the territories as they were and let the Gauls retake them, or gift them away to a non-hostile nation. I chose to weaken our enemy rather than give them any chance of recovery. The very idea that I have endangered the Republic by ensuring that our enemy cannot benefit from their lost territories is preposterous. The Germans are more dangerous? To who? If the Germans are so much more deadly than the Gauls, why has not a single Senator raised his voice in favor of war with Germania before now? Why was I elected to ravage Gaul when Germania was apparently our greatest danger? What insanity causes these comments?

The very idea that we even controlled these settlements to begin with is laughable. You act as if giving them away was no different than giving away Rome herself! This body itself elected me to sack Gallic lands, not to conquer them! Our desire was never to control them and it is only by there mere technical restraints of our warfare system that they even entered into our possession! We have no desire to keep these territories nor any claim to them, yet my actions in ensuring that our blood enemies do not use them becomes the greatest crime this Senate has witnessed?

I swear these accusations are a stain upon my honor that I shall not let stand. I have always been loyal to Rome. I have always been loyal to the Republic. My very presence here, having conquered and held not a single province, having done exactly what I said I would, having completed the tasks you elected me to do, is testament to the fact that I have followed the Senate's will to the letter! If you will consult my reports, you will note that one of the first actions I took as Consul was to attempt an alliance with the Iberians in accordance with Motion 3.10.

First and foremost my actions have always been for the good of the Republic and the prosperity of all Roman citizens. I stand behind every action I took and every word that I wrote.

The accusations of some, particularly Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Aemilius, men I have served with and men whom I considered good friends, have wounded me greatly. I am not a coward though and woe be to any who believes they can unjustly stain my honor and not suffer the consequences! I say here and now, any man, ANY MAN, who continues to accuse me of disloyalty to the Republic or violations of Senatorial law, will meet me in blood duel before the day is done. I will not live one day longer in the presence of such lies! You will withdraw your accusations or one of us will lie dead!

flyd

06-18-2006, 07:36

I find this highly inappropriate, Senator. This is a place of civilized discussion. You need to be able to take criticism without resorting to violent threats.

SwordsMaster

06-18-2006, 10:37

I just want to let know my fellow senators that I will support motions 6.3 and 6.5. I believe the industrialisation of our homeland is more important to mantain our fighting edge than rapid expansion.

I would like to bring the senators' attention to the fact that this is a discussion chamber. This is NOT a battlefield. All opinions shall be respected under law of the Republic, and no senators will engage in duel unless the senate approves such a thing.

econ21

06-18-2006, 10:37

[QUINTUS]: I must agree with Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, this debate is becoming overheated. The First Consul has not acted dishonourably or illegally. Indeed, I believe he has delivered the great raid on Gaul that he was elected to perform rather more efficiently and quickly than one might reasonably expect. I hope no additional Senators second motion 6.9 so that the situation can be calmed and we can consider the interests of the Republic with cool heads.

I would, however, like to correct the accusation made in the heat of the moment that I brought the Republic into war with Carthage without Senate authorisation. Looking at the records of the Senate deliberations, I observe that I proposed the following motion:

Emergency Motion #5 "This House instructs the First Consul to begin the conquest of Sicily. It gives advance authorisation for a declaration of war against Carthage to be made when the First Consul judges the time right."

My memory fails me, but I presume the motion was passed, otherwise I would have been impeached.

Senators, I believe our time would best be used discussing the Republic's next steps, not dwelling on the past. The example of the conquest of Sicily shows that events may occur by the mid-term of a First consul's office that lead First Consuls to rethink their plans. August Verginius has now encountered such a situation. Our task in these few days is to consider his re-assessment of the situation and, in particular, his request for authorising war on Iberia.

x-dANGEr

06-18-2006, 12:03

Senators, senators..

I second the motions:

Motion 6.7 : We will ally ourselves with the Illyrians at any cost, also offering to declare war on their enemy the kingdom of Macedon.

Motion 6.8: This house instructs the First Consul, after raiding Bourges, to return all Roman troops back to the Republic. The raided Gallic settlements of Gergovia and Comata are to be left as buffers between us and Iberia and Germany. This motion invalidates motions 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4.

And withdraw my support of Motion 6.1, 6.3.

First, I wish you all to reason, and look at the table to plan what's next, rather than what's before. The news approached me that a Roman woman was tortured in Sparta, and then killed by a greek merchant, that for his deeds, hadn't got cursed, but praised. And so, I stare at you, wondering what will you disregard next! Now, we start with a humilation of the Republic under the hands of a filthy merchant, and the next thing we know, a city is down to those rivals and we shake no arms for it. Wake up, Senators! One last cry came out of that woman's mouth, with woe titled all over it, "Death for the glory of the Republic..", yes. A woman gave away her soul for her belief in the Republic, and what do we do?

Vibius Pleminius walks a few steps back and forth.

WHAT DO WE DO? We stand here, cry at each other, cursing and challenging, giving no care or importance to a Roman woman that believed in us. It fails me how such great, courageous and brave men would, let me get it right, 'disregard this deed, and put the level of mind over that of heart'. I urge you my Senators, to make me fulfil the price of that woman's soul, with blood from every greek warrior I stumble upon.

Iberia and Carthage are of now no threat to us, for they both are fighting each other, and to attack one of them is to strengthen the other. The Germans to the north should fall for the prey before their eyes. The last 2 Gallic cities should remain a bait for the Germans, may a war start between them and the Iberians.

And at the ease end of all this, I need to remind you all that, to take the death of a Roman woman - who praised her death to the Republic - lightly, is to betray the essence of our principles. Principle we use to work our life through that hard path to glory, to the glory of the Republic.

TinCow

06-18-2006, 14:24

My memory fails me, but I presume the motion was passed, otherwise I would have been impeached.

Your memory does not fail you Senator, but you forget that nearly the entire elective process in 278 was invalid. Of the nine motions that were put before this body, it was publicly known that but a single one of them received a second. This is no mere technicality, this is a Senatorial necessity which must be met before a motion can be accepted for voting. We have subsequently considered it of such importance that we now require two seconds before a motion can pass. Yet, the Motion to which you refer was improperly and illegally put to a vote by the Senate Scribe. Since the Motion never qualified for voting in the first place, whether it subsequently passed or failed it entirely irrelevant. I am threatened with impeachment over a decision that was entirely legal and within my power and yet this blatant violation of Senate law goes totally unnoticed.

I find this highly inappropriate, Senator. This is a place of civilized discussion. You need to be able to take criticism without resorting to violent threats.

Criticism I can take. The words of Lucius Aemilius in particular were nothing of the sort. He blatantly accused me of suffering "delusions of grandeur" and he has repeatedly implied that I have actively endangered the Republic with my actions. These statements go far beyond acceptable Senatorial debate. Given that I have a reputation to uphold...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/proven.jpg

...there is no way I can ignore or let pass such accusations. If you will not withdraw your comments nor engage in a private resolution of this dispute, I will be forced to turned to the Court under a charge of slander. No Roman may make such comments about me and expect them to be ignored!

econ21

06-18-2006, 15:03

[QUINTUS]: Oh dear, it appears that the First Consul also wants to legislate retrospectively. The motions of 278BC were entirely constitutional, having been seconded by anonymous senators. The fact that we have since moved to restricting seconding to a select few named senators in no way renders illegal proceedings that were made under earlier rules.

Gentlemen, let us cease these specious arguments on points of law and outbursts of pique. There are substantive matters of state to discuss. We should not waste time with these distractions.

Silver Rusher

06-18-2006, 17:12

In light of two events that have recently taken place regarding Pro-Consul Augustus Verginius, I would like to propose two motions:

Motion 6.10: This house proposes that, in honour of Augustus Verginius' astonishing victory and bravery against the Gauls in the Battle of Bononia, the city of Bononia shall be from now on known as Verginia in all Senate deliberations.

Motion 6.11: This house proposes that, due to the controversy surrounding the First Consul's decision to give several settlements to the Germanians, it be made constitutional law that the exchange of settlements must be outlined in Senate motions from now on.

I also second motions 6.6 and 6.7. The lands of the Balkan peninsular offer great prospects for Rome, with their high level of development and culture fairly similar to ours. We should gain a huge economic advantage from these lands.

Glaucus

06-18-2006, 17:37

I grow weary of all this talk of law and constitution. I have my opinions, yes, but have already voiced them and will spare you the trouble of listening again.

Instead, let us address Iberia and Germania. As I have demonstrated earlier, with 3 border forts we could ensure that Germans never come into our lands. Not that they would, they have never expanded before in our history. Check the senate archive if you doubt me. Iberia is almost finished with Carthage at Carthago Nova, there will have to expand somewhere. I know the scribes grow tired of the many motions tabled this session, but I feel I must put forth one more, a compromise of sorts:

Motion 6.12: This house details the movement of our military forces in Gaul:
A - This house proposes that Consular Army 1 sets sail for and captures Palma, a Carthaginian island south of Massilia. (Also preventing Iberian expansion in the Med.)
B-This house Proposes that Legio III build 3 border forts and spreads her troops out between the forts, to block any enemies journying south.
C-This house Proposes Legio I reamains in southern Gaul, ready to attack Narbo should Iberia act aggresivly toward us.

x-dANGEr

06-18-2006, 18:52

I second motion 6.11.

Avicenna

06-18-2006, 20:25

I apologise for my absence, senators, due to some.. managerial issues, and crowding at the Arena. No, I was not spending time there for fun, it was purely business I tell you..

I would like to second motions 6.1 through to 6.4, as well as motions 6.6 and [b[6.10[/b].

I would also remind you, my colleagues, that this is a body for the benefit of Rome, not a rowdy barbarian tavern, or a place to settle personal vendettas. Throwing empty accusations will get our state nowhere, and as such I condemn senator Coruncanius for the proposal of motion 6.9.

Silver Rusher

06-18-2006, 21:03

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-18-2006, 23:29

Senators, and most especially my dear friend Augustus Verginius,

I have spoken harsh words in the senate against the decision of the acting consul Verginius to give away 'control' over the sacked Gaul settlements to Germania. I plead forgiveness from my dear friend for these words as I have been very upset by the loss of Faustina, my beloved mother-in-law. I might have let my emotions get the better from me in some of these speeches and this is not worthy of this house and I regret it.

Now that acting consul Verginius has explained his reasoning behind this decision I can understand the motivations. He is partly to blame as his initial report gave the picture that this decision was reached on a whim, something which I found almost impossible to believe from this man. I was wondering if the fierce fighting had deranged his mind, but it seems it was clear all along, he just neglected to fill us in on his reasoning untill now, as is understandable from a general in the midst of a campaign.

That said, I do not agree with his reasoning and I remain very unhappy with his strategic decison. So I will not retract my support from Motion 6.9. It is important that a precedent by set for future legislation by this house, even if I regret that this concerns my friend Augustus Verginius.

In view of his explenation to this house of his actions I see no reason whatsoever to take the drastic step of impeachment. Instead I will second Motion 6.10, as I want to make it absolutely clear that in spite of this disagreement I think the consul has performed his duties exemplary and with great devotion. I will also second Motion 6.11 as I want to avoid such unfortunate disagreements in the future. I urge all senators to follow me in this.

Finally I will second Motion 6.12, because I think the capture of Palma will be a strategic blow to the Republic of Carthage. I must however once more express my dislike of Motions with subclauses. I do hope senators will refrain from these Motion-packages in the future.

Ignoramus

06-18-2006, 23:51

Madness! I have been a firm supporter of Augustus Verginius, but he goes too far! Giving Gallic lands to Germans! These Germans will accept land and still attack us! The Gauls are honourable foes, more honourable than Germans!

Glaucus

06-19-2006, 02:13

The Gauls are honourable foes, more honourable than Germans!

Hate to sound like a child at play in the gutters of Roma, but,

Prove it!

Ignoramus

06-19-2006, 02:56

Glaucus

06-19-2006, 03:23

This is the third time I have said this, and no one seems to have heard me.

Germania has never expanded. Ever. End of story.

Ignoramus

06-19-2006, 03:24

Then why should we encourage them to do so. Tribune Pansa, you have been in Rome, you are ignorant of the surrounding kingdoms.

TinCow

06-19-2006, 03:37

We attacked the Gauls, all they have done hav defended their homeland. They are honourable as barbarians go, but Germans have no honour. Germans will befriend Rome and then betray us when we do not expect it.

I cannot believe the words that I am hearing. Gaul sacked this very city barely 100 years ago. Gaul has repeatedly raided our lands. This very conflict was begun when a massive Gallic forced moved into our territory without our consent, clearly they were not here for sight-seeing.

What have the Germans ever done to deserve our mistrust? We share no border whatsoever. They have never sent a army into our territory. While so many other nations, even those we call friends, have been caught spying on our military preparations, not one single German agent has ever been detected in our territory. Given the scope of time that has passed, we would know if one was here.

I am simply at a loss to explain this sudden change, Senator Antio. You openly supported me in the last election when I specifically advocated the extermination of all Gauls. You even specifically voted in favor of my proposed motion to allow this act. I do not understand this change of attitude and I will assume your dinner has not agreed with you.

On another matter, I feel I must again amend my statements regarding Motion 6.2. I had withdrawn this motion feeling that this body could not possibly fail to take advantage of our situation to finish the Gauls once and for all. In the event they were permanently removed as a menace to us, letting Bourges become an independant nation would certainly be in our best interests. However, now there seems to be some doubt as to whether it is even proper to finish off our oldest and most vile enemy. I remind the Senate that if we do not finish them, when we leave Bourges they will choose to return to Gaul, they will not become an independant people. This will simply give Gaul another area from which to create raiding parties to take Roman blood.

The only reason so far stated for preserving Gaul is to keep it as a buffer state. While I heavily disagree with this policy, surely those Senators who advocate it would not wish Gaul to have any power whatsoever beyond this buffer status. As such, I wish to re-impose the motion as amended below:

Motion 6.2: Bourges shall be given to Germania after it has been sacked if the Senate chooses not to permanently destroy the Gauls.

Ignoramus

06-19-2006, 04:36

I apologize, Consul, for my criticism. I sought only the good of Rome, and I now admit that even my most eloquent efforts have failed to convince the Gallic tribes of the benefits of Roman civilization. However, I fear that by giving the Germanic tribes the fertile land of Northern Gaul, which is very fertile indeed, may cause them to desire more, and thus cause them to invade us in want of more.

Braden

06-19-2006, 10:38

A recognised messenger arrives, it is Decius Curtius’s man servant. After being given leave to speak he unrolls his parchment and beings:

Noble Senators of the Republic,

I may shock you by saying that I will not support impeachment against the Consul for his actions of granting the Germainians Gaul territory. However, what I am surprised and vexed by is that the Consul would give such without first offering a relating treaty? I would like to know why we did not secure a firm alliance with the Germainians for these regions.

I will not support the impeachment as I feel that a Consul should have sufficient “free hand” to enter into such diplomatic moves. I do feel that the Republic has suffered from the Consuls misjudgement in this matter though and a lost chance for an alliance and further trade has been lost.

This is NOT to say that I support the Consul in his actions, only to say that any Consul should have the freedom to perform such acts.

No, I do not support this move. The Germainians can potentially be a much greater threat than the Gauls in time…..but that is a legacy the Consul will leave us for years in the future.

Iberia. Has the Consul lost his sanity?! Is he now a megalomaniac? I do not support any actions against the Iberians, we should withdraw as the Consul pledged to do in his manifesto and secure our borders, hence I support Motion #6.8. The Consul appears determined to drag us into more wars and endless bloodshed..

…I say to the Senate these are warnings that the Senate should have realised about at the last elections!! The current Consul is bent on Conquest for Conquests sake, he is drunk on Denarii I say!

I warned the Senate in the last session of this danger and I was NOT heeded. I ask the Senate to monitor this Consul very closely indeed as whilst the investment in the Republic is commendable the methods he is determined to follow further are unacceptable.

War in the North must stop! This was promised by the Consul before he was elected, he must follow that manifesto and withdraw once Gaul has been pacified. Give more regions to the Germainians if you choose Consul but you MUST gain more than just “good will” for them, this we must insist lest even I turn and urge a full impeachment which will loose you your office.

Lower your blood-lust Consul, come home and build. Carthage is still here, they grow stronger every season……as I predicted!......and soon we will have lost our chance to destroy our great enemy to the South. If you delay too long before preparing for Carthage, my the extra deaths weigh heavy on your heart.

We must use this extra denarii to continue building ships, without them we cannot defend our shores OR launch an invasion of Carthage or Greece or even protect any force in Iberia (should that folly be decided upon). To this end I propose the following motion:

Motion #6.13:

The Senate authorises the completion of a Consular fleet for transport and defence purposes.

Now, Consul, I am at your behest here in Afrika. Whilst I do not support, have never supported your proposals, my life is in your hands here. I ask that I be used in some form as I have been “neglected” in favour of my other counterparts.

The messenger sits and awaits the Senates pleasure……

TinCow

06-19-2006, 12:10

It appears my previous words have been overlooked by some. I will repeat them for clarification of this issue:

Regarding the territories given to Germania. It is a total fallacy of thought that I would ever have handed them over freely without spending maximum efforts in an attempt to secure both an alliance and monetary tribute for Rome. Sextus Antio discussed the issue twice with both the Thracian and the Germans. Neither was willing to give either a formal alliance or any kind of monetary compensation for the territories. Wisely, they recognized the total worthlessness of these territories and did not wish to pay for them.

At this point, I was confronted with a situation. Rome could not receive anything of value for these provinces, regardless of how much we may have wished to. I then saw two choices: leave the territories as they were and let the Gauls retake them, or gift them away to a non-hostile nation. I chose to weaken our enemy rather than give them any chance of recovery.

OOC:
Seriously, I think we should start expecting less in the Senate from Consular diplomacy. At this point, we have achieved pretty much everything that is possible to achieve. No one will agree to anything that hasn't already occurred. Greece won't even make peace with us, not even if offered a massive tribute, even though we share no border. Trust me, I've tried every option with Iberia, Germania, Thrace, Illyria, Macedon, Greece and Carthage... nothing works. It certainly is realistic to make motions for diplomatic actions and to discuss these things, but I think it's a bit unfair to hold it against me when it's a game mechanic I can't do anything about.

Braden

06-19-2006, 14:15

Consul,

As my master has indicated he does not question the validity of handing these regions to the Germainians. It was, a tactically sound proposition for, as you suggest, they would have been taken by force of arms soon anyway.

I apologise on my masters behalf for not relating the diplomatic details correctly or fully. I am sure his opinion would be to support the choice you made given the diplomatic brick wall you were presented with.

OOC: We’re only holding it against your character, in character so don’t worry. It’s a real shame that someone hasn’t been able to rectify the poor diplomatic AI in this game.

TinCow

06-20-2006, 00:09

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-20-2006, 00:51

Acting consul Verginius,

If that is your wish I will withdraw my support for Motion 6.10.

Seeing as the Gauls are doomed I am inclined to vote for the destruction of Gaul and I will vote for motions that let us take over the remaining Gaul territory. I will thus accordingly vote for Motion 6.1 and Motion 6.3. I would not like to see any of the tribes nearer to us become even more powerful, so I will still cast my vote against Motion 6.2.

I see no point in a war with Iberia, and will thus continue to oppose Motion 6.4, but why not aid our neighbours the Illyrians in their fight against our common enemy Greece instead ? With Gaul destroyed and Carthage occupied with their war against Numidia, we can concentrate on a strong offensive against our original enemy, the Greeks. I therefore urge all the senators to vote for Motion 6.6 and Motion 6.7. If the Illyrians prove too proud to ally themselves at any cost, I suggest we invade Southern Greece, taking the heat of the Illyrian front.

econ21

06-20-2006, 01:14

[QUINTUS]: First Consul, I would ask you this: if you are so eager to eradicate Gaul, why did you not propose this at the outset - as Senator Publius Laevinus did? I would have supported you then, when we would have had a whole great tract of land to conquer and occupy.

But now, what would it profit us to seize two depopulated and burnt settlements? Very little. And what would we lose? For a start, our defensible position at the Massilia ford. But above all, by moving to seize those two settlements we would be brought into contact with Iberia, who you fear, and Germany, who you have made strong. Before your term is done, we would likely be dragged into one or two wars when we already have two unfinished! Indeed, you propose that we promptly start one now - with Iberia - for no reason that I can fathom.

And of course, you did not propose eliminating Gaul when you stood for election. Instead, you proposed this curious notion of a great raid - gutting the Gaulish settlements but foreswearing to occupy them. What did you imagine would happen when you vacated them? Did it really surprise you that the pitiful remnants of the people you have enslaved started creep back to their burnt hovels? That idea was apparently too repellant to you, although quite how those miserable survivors could have ever been a threat to us, I fail to see. So instead, you concieved the wheeze of giving those settlements to the Germans. To the Germans! Fearsome and predatory men who make even the Gauls appear civilised. I fear it will be only a matter of time before the Germans send their many javelins back to us in thanks! Hence instead of making the Germans fight for the settlements, at the least delaying their advance, at best making them pay for them in blood, you merely transfered them.

First Consul, how many of the Senators here would have voted for you if you had proposed this little wheeze in your manifesto? Vote for Verginius and a greater Germany! That would have been a catchy slogan ... in the Teutoberger Wald, for sure; perhaps less appealing along the Via Appia!

Verginius, frankly, I believe your hatred of Gauls has unhinged you. When this interim session of Senate opened, I requested that my men be allowed to drive off the brigands loitering in Southern Italy. You readily agreed. But then you quickly retracted that agreement having heard of my speech to the Senate advising against your reckless plan to wage war on the Iberians. Apparently, you no longer consider me a friend since I have attempted to stay your hand from final extermination of the Gauls and the start of a new bloodly feud with Iberia. So, you have undertaken to find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta.

First Consul, who precisely did you think you were dealing with in this petulant maneouvring? Some lackey who could be swayed by your trivial inducements or chastised by your petty orders?

Verginius, I have twice defended you on the Senate floor against accusations about your honour and competence. I will not make the same mistake three times.

And do not bother to challenge me to a duel, Sir, I am neither young enough nor stupid enough to waste time with such foolishness.

I second motion #6.9 and suggest to Senator Tiberius Coruncanius that perhaps it should be reworded to:

"This house censors the First Consul for giving conquered settlements to the Germans without informing the Senate of his intention. Note: this does not impeach the First Consul"

However, I will support the motion regardless of the precise wording.

flyd

06-20-2006, 01:33

Senator Quintus, I agree with your suggestion regarding the wording of Motion 6.9, it is more clear and direct. If you run into the Speaker, get him to change the wording of the motion.

TinCow

06-20-2006, 01:37

First Consul, I would ask you this: if you are so eager to eradicate Gaul, why did you not propose this at the outset - as Senator Publius Laevinus did? I would have supported you then, when we would have had a whole great tract of land to conquer and occupy.

I did not propose it because I did not think it possible. Readily, I admit that I doubted my ability to sack all six settlements withing five years. The incredible bravery and skill of our men has vastly exceeded my expectations and, nearing the middle of my term, I found the Republic faced with an opportunity that neither I nor, I suspect, many other Senators thought we would have. In the face of such developments, surely it is not a sin to sieze fortune when it is offered.

Verginius, frankly, I believe your hatred of Gauls has unhinged you. When this interim session of Senate opened, I requested that my men be allowed to drive off the brigands loitering in Southern Italy. You readily agreed. But then you quickly retracted that agreement having heard of my speech to the Senate advising against your reckless plan to wage war on the Iberians. Apparently, you no longer consider me a friend since I have attempted to stay your hand from final extermination of the Gauls and the start of a new bloodly feud with Iberia. So, you have undertaken to find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta.

First Consul, who precisely did you think you were dealing with in this petulant maneouvring? Some lackey who could be swayed by your trivial inducements or chastised by your petty orders?

Amusing, it seems you may have become unhinged yourself, Senator. You personally aggitated for war against mighty Carthage, yet now you fear barbarian tribes. You accuse me of persuing a deranged vendetta against the Gauls, when your stated reason for wishing the erradication of a band of lowly outlaws was because their leader's name was too similar to your own! Regardless, my attempt to appease you was out of defference for your past conquests, which I see no evidence of in the man before me. I promised Publis Pansa that he could personally destroy the brigands with Legio IV long before you ever requested the 'favor.' Frankly Senator, given what I see now, I believe you are ill-equipt for even such a mild battle. Your old age seems to have made you craven, fearing barbarians and going so far as to request retirement into provincial governance. No Senator, I would not give command of a Legion in battle to one such as you, not even if that command had not been previously promised to another.

Glaucus

06-20-2006, 02:02

...find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta...

*Publius Pansa rises and leaves the House of the Senate, telling his attendant to make ready his bath*

x-dANGEr

06-20-2006, 09:11

Senators, I think we should send spies in south Greece, so we know when is the right moment to strike, and strike hard. I hope you'd give me a suitable army to go seize one of their cities, for you all know me of my pure roman roots, and good commanding skills, and to be fair, I want to avenge that woman.

Braden

06-20-2006, 09:37

(OOC: Saucer of milk please! Senate floor, table two.)

Consul,

I understand your defence at what you see is a personal attack, however, what the Senate questions are not merely actions that you should have presented the Senate with before acting upon them but also actions and further proposals that run counter to what you pledged before election.

My master had no illusions about what was possible with our fighting men when you proposed this “raid” on Gaul. It is precisely that reason that moved him to vote against it. He was confident that you would demolish the Gauls, although the speed is astounding obviously, the result was never in doubt in his mind. He was also aware of the problems that sudden vacuum would make.

I find it hard to accept your own lack of confidence after the “track record” of our legions against the Gauls, or actually anyone who has opposed them so far. When or legions were killing at least 12 Gauls for each one of their own, how could you doubt them?

However, the main points that my master will contest with you at this time revolve around your proposal to occupy settlements which belonged to the Gauls that you have sacked already AND, perhaps more importantly, your proposal to start offensive actions against the Iberians!

What you did by gifting defeated regions to the Germainians was wrong, you will potentially be impeached for it, but it is done and is the past now. Dwelling on this for anything other than the vote for or against the impeachment is folly.

What should concern the Senate now are your future actions. I see that you have started to back track with regards to the Iberians, I am gladdened of this but for clarification I ask you to state openly that you will NOT start war upon the Iberians and ONLY defend our borders?

Also, you state we should “finish” the destruction of Gaul? Have you not done this already?? You’re original mandate remains – the sacking of Gaul without retaining control of any of her original settlements…….this you have pledged and the Senate agreed upon.

My master will hold you to this pledge. This does not validate the occupation of any of these lands though.

IF this needs further clarification I can submit a motion but I believe it does NOT. It is simple, you must complete the Raid you promised to undertake and then WITHDRAW to behind the ford at Massilia, as you promised to do. Leave those sorry settlements to whatever fate and the Gods dictate.

Then you may do what the majority of Senators voted for you do – build our economy and infrastructure. Where our next conflict in the North comes from will be seen in the future, without a robust economy we will not be able to face the future threats, wherever they come from though.

Greece or Carthage? My master would favour Carthage but a divide of water seems to lead to apathy in the Senate so perhaps the Greeks will be our next main concern….at this time it matters not! What does matter is that you, Consul, uphold what you pledged and do not continue to exceed your powers or mandate.

SwordsMaster

06-20-2006, 12:10

IF this needs further clarification I can submit a motion but I believe it does NOT. It is simple, you must complete the Raid you promised to undertake and then WITHDRAW to behind the ford at Massilia, as you promised to do. Leave those sorry settlements to whatever fate and the Gods dictate.

Then you may do what the majority of Senators voted for you do – build our economy and infrastructure. Where our next conflict in the North comes from will be seen in the future, without a robust economy we will not be able to face the future threats, wherever they come from though.

I wholeheartedly agree with senator Curtius on this matter. If not for the promise to impulse the development of our homeland, there would have been one less vote for you, Consul Verginius. I insist you upkeep your electoral promises.

Mount Suribachi

06-20-2006, 12:39

Conscript Fathers, it is with a torn heart that I stand before you. To see my honoured father Tiberius, and my Consul & General Augustus at each others throats saddens me greatly. There are several key issues that stand before us, that I shall come to one by one

Firstly, the issue of handing over Gaulish provinces to Germania. I feel that the anger many Senators feel over what they perceive as an unconstitutional act is greatly enhanced by the fact that we received so little in return. I truly believe that for Consul Augustus Verginius to have stopped his raid - whilst deep inside Gaul, to propose motions for the Senates approval would have been impracticable to the point of being unachievable. The Senate cannot surely expect its elected Consul to ratify every single diplomatic effort he makes. Furthermore, this house fails to take into account the intractability of our neighbours, near and far! How many diplomatic motions has this house approved? And how many our esteemed Consuls succeeded in? The rulers all around our great Republic are a stiff-necked lot who wouldn't know a good deal if it was tattooed on their backsides! We would be forced into starting countless Senate sessions, endlessly debating diplomatic motions, which if they passed, would be rejected by the objects of our diplomacy anyway.

Oh how Consul Augustus tried to reach a deal with other nations. I was there at the negotiations Conscript Fathers, I saw first hand how the Barbarian style of negotiation is all take-take-take and no give, not even a little. Against such foolishness there is little that can be done alas. I shall not be voting to reproach, let alone impeach our noble Consul, he did what he thought was best for Rome, and within boundaries of his Imperium.

Secondly, Iberia. And here I diverge from the point of View of Augustus. Oh, the debates we have had in the command tent on this issue! I believe former Consul Quintus has put forward my own position most eloquently. We conquered Massila, specifically to give us an easily defensible frontier. With just one fort, Cisalpine Gaul is protected from attacks. Yet Consul Augustus (and others) advocate advancing into Southern Gaul, as we can protect our position with just THREE forts!

Conscript Fathers, were my teachers in the Academy failing me, or am I correct in believing that the position that only needs ONE fort is more defensible than that which needs three? Furthermore, those 3 forts would be sandwiched between Germania and Iberia, and I doubt that either of those 2 would be able to resist attacking us at some point. Massila has repeatedly shown its value as a defensive position. Let the Iberians take the easy route to the North if they desire further expansion.

If the Iberians are foolish enough to attack us at Massila, they will most surely lose, and lose badly. And then they will suffer, as have all who are foolish enough to challenge us. But until they point, let them be, we have bigger fish to fry.

Finally Greece. I commend motion 6.6 as put forward by Vibius Pleminius although he is perhaps being a little bit over-confident in putting himself, merely a tribune like myself, forward to lead such an expedition which deserves a Legate to lead it. Too long have those foolish Greeks hidden across the water, dodging the reckoning for their aggression against us. And if it serves to protect Ilyria, then so much the better. I shall go away and study the maps, but I would suggest a walled, coastal city. Easily defendable, and adds to our trade income, whilst taking away from theirs.

Finally I would like to second motion 6.13

econ21

06-20-2006, 13:07

[QUINTUS]: I would also like to second motion #6.13. I emphasise that the fleet must be for fighting at sea as well as transportation. Another 10 light ships, although economical as transports, would not serve us well. We currently lack a single corvus quinquireme. A small fleet of even five of these vessels would greatly increase our naval strength.

Senators, we cannot continue to cower in fear as Greek and Carthaginian fleets sail past. We cannot continue to have to sneak undetected across straits of water if we wish to send our armies to distant lands. We must achieve naval supremacy in the Mediterranean and now, when our position on land appears unassailable, would seem to be the appropriate time to begin our ascent.

Glaucus

06-20-2006, 13:17

In light of recent discussion, I withdraw my support for motions 6.3 and 6.4. You have made it clear in my mind as to what is the best course for the Republic. That said, I do think the Iberians will attack us soon, and when the time comes we should be ready to strike. Thus, I remain very against sending armies accross the sea to Greece to start new wars!

Braden

06-20-2006, 13:23

Princeps Quintus, Members of the Senate,

My proposal for a fleet is for a utilitarian fleet, a mixture of transports and warships. My Masters concern now is for the Republic to concentrate on the defence of our shipping lanes and ports whilst the Consul concentrates on building our economy.

Ports and shipping are the life-blood of our finances and must be defended. We can no longer tolerate the Carthage and Greek fleets to have complete freedom in the seas.

Does the Motion require rewording? I had hoped that the stipulation in the Motion “fleet for transport and defence” was explicit enough, whatever the mix it MUST be of sufficient size to be able to transport a sufficient army of Consular size AND maintain security.

Perhaps this is s dream for the future, but the seeds must be sown now.

Braden

06-20-2006, 13:43

Members of the Senate, I must also explain the stance my master will take in this voting session.

He will not support any motions that will support or run the risk of direct conflict at this time. He believes that after the success of the raids in Gaul, the 2nd half of this Consularship should be to build up in preparation for trials ahead.

It is possible, very possible, that the Greeks will strike in the next Consuls tenure. It is also nearly as possible that we will exchange javelins with the Iberians, or the warriors of Carthage. What he does not think is that these will occur in the next 2 years, hence the current Consul has time to re-build and strengthen the Republic.

Currently if a war breaks out we will suffer greatly.

If Carthage attacks they will blockade our ports and we will not be able to stop them, they will strike at Lilybaeum perhaps and we will not be able to ferry support to our citizens there.

If Iberia strikes, it will be a hell-storm of countless bodies. We will hold them but at what cost in manpower? Could we rebuild our Legion on the frontier in time?

If the Greeks come, they will also blockade our ports, perhaps even land on the East coast of Italia! We cannot stop this now……we could only react after they have landed and burnt our fields.

So, we must build now…..In Peace, Prepare for War….is it not said? We must withdraw from Gaul, recruit to replace the dead (granted, not that many) and more importantly, we must not miss the chance to use the funds given us by the Consul for the betterment of the Republic. Such coin must not be lost on more wars.

Support a withdrawal from Gaul
Support the building of a fleet
Urge the Consul to build infrastructure.

Support and vote YES on Motions:

#6.5, #6.7, #6.8, #6.11 and #6.13

x-dANGEr

06-20-2006, 14:06

If the Greeks come, they will also blockade our ports, perhaps even land on the East coast of Italia! We cannot stop this now……we could only react after they have landed and burnt our fields.

So, we must build now…..In Peace, Prepare for War….is it not said? We must withdraw from Gaul, recruit to replace the dead (granted, not that many) and more importantly, we must not miss the chance to use the funds given us by the Consul for the betterment of the Republic. Such coin must not be lost on more wars.

Support a withdrawal from Gaul
Support the building of a fleet
Urge the Consul to build infrastructure.

Support and vote YES on Motions:

#6.5, #6.7, #6.8, #6.11 and #6.13
But then, I'd rather take the battle to them than receive it in my lands.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-20-2006, 14:45

Thus, I remain very against sending armies accross the sea to Greece to start new wars!

Senator Publius Pansa,
The war with the Greeks has never ended. Unless you mean the possible extension of this conflict when we get embroiled in war with the Greek allies, the Macedonians.

Senators,
We have suffered only minor losses and the only nation that really threatens our security now are the Greek Cities. Our Praetorian fleet can transport an entire Consular army in a single season if we invade Greece from Tarentum due to the short distance. We have a unique oppertunity to strike hard at our strongest enemy while our other enemies are occupied with other matters. Let us not waste it !
Illyria is putting up a magnificent fight, but eventually she will collapse and then we will be fighting at Patavium. Let us not wait for that, but strike now and fight the war in their homeland !
Support all Motions that call for offensive action against the vile Greeks !

SwordsMaster

06-20-2006, 16:23

In sight of what has been said, I would like to propose a new motion:

Motion 6.14: By the end of the consul's term, the total size of our fleet should be at least that of the Greek and Carthaginian (our two closest enemies) combined. No less than a third of it should be made of heavy vessels (Corvus Quinquirremes), and information should be gathered immediately about the size o the fleets of our rivals.

GeneralHankerchief

06-20-2006, 16:26

Unlike Carthage, there is a land connection between us and the Greeks which is currently held by Illyria. Theoretically, the Greeks could just plow through and show up on Patavium's doorstep one day. That makes them all the more dangerous.

Not to mention there is always the question of money. Surely the controlling of both sides of the Adriatic Sea, as well as possibly one side of the Aegean Sea (we have good relations with those on the other side, do we not?) would definitely turn us into a force to be reckoned with in terms of the size of our coffers.

Silver Rusher

06-20-2006, 16:54

I would like to take a moment to urge the Senate not to vote in favor of Motion 6.10. As was stated in the battle report, it was Legio I which was truly heroic in that action, not I. Furthermore it was but a single victory in a long and ongoing conflict. It was not a decisive battle against the Gauls nor was it strategically significant in the grand course of the war. I fully believe that renaming an entire settlement after me is excessive and insulting to the men who truly won the battle.

I personally do not believe such an honor is necessary nor do I think it is proper given the circumstances. If the Senate feels that honors must be accorded for this action, then I would ask that they be given to the Legion itself, not to me. Give them a bonus pension and make the Italian auxilia who fought there that day Roman citizens.
Legio I was brave yes, but their bravery was inspired by you! Please, Senator, do not beat yourself up over the rash charge that you led against Lucco. If it had not been for this, the enemy would not have routed and the Legion would have been slaughtered. It was your decisive action that won the battle.

I also disagree on the idea that it was strategically insignificant. Lucco was a great and powerful general. If a less experienced general had taken over that battle, not only would the Legion have been slaughtered but Lucco's army would grow even more confident (and therefore more formidable) and we would be HUGELY crippled for the course of the war. His army was one of the most powerful that the Gauls had, and their ambush made this even more true.

I fully believe that renaming an entire settlement after me is excessive and insulting to the men who truly won the battle.
This is a joke, surely! Your men would have been proud to see their good general's name on the city. They would be able to tell their grandchildren: "I was there, when Augustus Verginius led us to victory against the army of Gaul. I was there when, in spite of a fearsome Gallic ambush, which very nearly spelt the death of our forces, but Augustus managed to turn the tide of the battle."

Please, Senator, do not deny that you won a great victory on that day. However, if you do not wish to have a settlement named after you, that is only fair.

Unless Augustus Verginius changes his mind, I will withdraw motion 6.10

EDIT: OOC: Well, it seems I am too late. Scrap that last bit.

econ21

06-20-2006, 17:02

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I ask your forgiveness, Senators, but Mrs Speaker, I mean unforeseen circumstances, force me to open polling an hour early.

Apologies in particular to Senator Swordsmaster, but I believe much of the gist of his motion 6.14 can be taken to be included in the motion 6.13.

No more motions can now be tabled or seconded. Results will be announced in 24 hours.

Now, I must depart in haste... Farewell for now.

SwordsMaster

06-20-2006, 17:21

[SENATE SPEAKER]:
Apologies in particular to Senator Swordsmaster, but I believe much of the gist of his motion 6.14 can be taken to be included in the motion 6.13.

I believe this is not the case, honorable speaker, as where motion 13 requests a Consular fleet, i.e. a fleet capable of transporting a Consular army, motion 14 sets much more specific goals for our Consul

Mount Suribachi

06-21-2006, 08:13

Senator Rutilius, unfortunately I believe your policy of Naval parity to be unrealistic at this moment in time. Warships such as Corvus Quinquereemes are expensive to build & maintain. We must remember that due to their tax practices they receive 10,000 denarii a season extra income, that we do not. In an arms race of quantity, we will always lose. In an arms race of quality, on sea as on land, we should aim to be victorious.

I would always prefer a smaller, but well armed and highly trained navy wielded with strategic efficiency to a larger navy used clumsily, as a barbarian would wield a club.

TinCow

06-21-2006, 11:59

This senate is outraged by the prospect of war with Iberia, yet many of you vote for war with Macedon and propose an expedition to Greece that will surely result in war with Macedon as well. I do not know whether this is hypocrisy, insanity or ignorance. Perhaps next session I should propose war with Bactria if I believe Rome should attack Iberia.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-21-2006, 13:32

Illyria is the enemy of our enemy, and hence our friend.
Macedon is the friend of Greece, and hence our potential enemy. The fact that Macedon and Greece have banded together to fight Illyria makes it vital for us to intervene and declare war on Macedon. If Illyria falls, we will have the Greeks, and possible the Macedonians, on our doorstep in Cispine Gaul.
The Iberians are a potential enemy as they are allied to Gaul, but they are also our friend as they are the enemy of our enemy, the Republic of Carthage.

Why lose a friend, Iberia, when we can save a friend, Illyria ?

Anyhow, the voting is still in progress and then there is the question of influence. Patience is my counsel.

TinCow

06-21-2006, 23:52

The sheer madness of this body makes me glad I shall be retiring in less than 3 years. One Senator even voted in favor of Motion 6.1 and the motion voiding it!

I am ordered to cease warfare against the Gauls, when two Legions and the Consular I Army are ready to strike, yet I am ordered to attack the Greeks across the sea when we have no Legions to spare within two years march of the area.

Under Motion 5.4 I am ordered to keep a Legion within 1 day's march of all unwalled cities. As such I cannot move Legio IV in southern Italy or Legio V in Sicily. In addition it would be foolish to remove all forces from the Massilia crossing, so at least either Legio I or Legio III must remain there. This leaves the other Legion available, but two years march from a port from which they can take transport to Greece, and Consular I Army, which is even farther away.

So, this can be solved by raising another Legion to send to Greece. Yet I am also ordered by Motion 6.5 to begin auxilia integration in every single province and by Motion 5.4 to construct roads and armories in provinces, a feat that I doubt could be achieved even with all of our current income diverted to the task, let alone after the expense of raising and maintaining another Legion and of expanding the fleet.

Fortunately, many in this Senate are also fools and do not know how to create effective legislation. I note with pleasure that Motion 6.13 merely authorises me to complete a Consular sized fleet. Why, thank you for the authorization. I assure you I shall not feel the need to exercise the power. I also note the curious wording of Motion 6.8 and Motion 6.6. Motion 6.8 clearly states that all Roman troops must return to the Republic. Clearly no Hastati, Principes, Triarii, Equites, Velites, or Fundatores may leave the Republic for the remainder of my Consulship. Therefore the Greek army must be composed exclusively of Italian auxilia, since that is all that remains to us at the moment. Motion 6.6 states that a small army must establish a base in Greece. Nothing in the motion says that the base must be held after it is established, nor does it indicate how large the army must be, other than 'small.' I believe some of the more irksome Senators here today may soon find themselves in command of two cohorts of Italian spearmen assaulting a walled Greek city and with no possibility of reinforcements to help defend their new base.

Did you think you were dealing with a fool? Next time I suggest you put more thought into your legislative vomitus.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-22-2006, 00:38

Senators, and especially our acting consul Verginius,

Decius Curtius (Braden)'s representative must have gotten confused during the heated debates and voted incorrectly. I'm sure his master will punish him accordingly.

As one of your 'persecutors' let me be the first to congratulate you on the failure of Motion 6.9 (This house censors the First Consul), which as a senator I felt had to be proposed, but as a friend am glad to see failed miserably.
I greatly regret the failure of Motion 6.7 (We will ally ourselves with the Illyrians), especially seeing as Motion 6.6 (A small army along with a spy is to be sent to a 'backroom' Greek city) did pass. I now greatly regret voting for Motion 6.6, especially as it seems my vote was decisive, and I would never have done it had I suspected Motion 6.7 would fail. But it is too late now and the will of the senate must be done.

I think your interpretation might be slightly too literal, altough I can understand your caution after your harsh treatement at the hands of the senate and myself in particular.
I do not think the senate would take kindly to you interpreting ´Roman troops´ as excluding our auxilia forces. You would make a laughing stock of yourself if you actually did send out an army composed entirely of auxiliaries without a core of Prinicipes, Hastatii, Velites and Triarii. Your deft twisting of words does not disguise the fact that no True Roman would consider an army to lack this core to be an army, merely a collection of auxilia troops. As Motion 6.8 says nothing about Motion 6.6 I expect a small army to be a Roman Legion at the very least. I strongly recommend to send a Consular Army for such a hazardous attack.
I find your notion of ´two cohorts of Italian spearmen assaulting a walled Greek city´ entertaining, but I´m assuming you will use your military knowledge and send out nothing smaller than a legion at the very least.

I am glad that Motion 6.15 passed as we can surely use the extra day of debate it seems.

Let me finish by expressing the fullest confidence that acting consul Verginius can manouver between these ill-worded directives and find a path that will lead to the betterment of our great Republic.

Hail Roma !

Mount Suribachi

06-22-2006, 07:56

*purses lips*

*looks at Consul Verginius, looks at the rest of the Senate*

*says nothing*

flyd

06-22-2006, 08:06

Looks like that pesky Senate is getting in Verginius' way once again.

Braden

06-22-2006, 09:13

Consul, Senators,

Firstly I must apologise. It appears I interpreted more into motions #6.1 and #6.8 than was intended by their proposers.

It was my assumption that both could run together but in priority….Motion #6.1 was to FINALISE the destruction of Gaul with all haste with then Motion #6.8 insisting that the troops return to Republican soil AFTER they have completed the task which was set them with the Consuls election to office.

id est, the completed raid of Gaul. Please note I voted against those motions insisting we retained control of any Gallic regions.

As to Motion #6.6 – it is clear that the Senate have not see recent maps of the Consuls current troops disposition and I trust that the Senate will take the Consuls assurance that he will start to move troops into a position READY to undertake Motion #6.6 as it is physically impossible for him to actually complete such a task.

Last I looked our troops were not mounted on Pegasus.

Please Consul, understand that if a task is beyond you, the Senate will not hold it against you.

I ask the Senate Speaker to re-instate Motion #6.1 and allow the Consul to complete the task that he Senate voted him in for BEFORE complying with Motion #6.8.

Destroy Gaul, then return home and build. Consolidate your troops and prepare for acting upon Motion #6.6.

It will be the next Consuls task to complete Motion #6.6 it is clear.

I would imagine that my Master will be honoured to undertake scouting for the mission in Motion #6.6, and likewise will not be in a position to undertake such a task until the next Consulship.

econ21

06-22-2006, 09:51

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am afraid I have no power to reinstate motions. To avoid contradictory motions, we introduced the requirement that the later motion should supercede the earlier one if it explicitly invalidates it. I believe the corollary of this should be that if a later motion does not explicitly invalidate an earlier one, the earlier motion (not the later one) takes precedence. I suggest we observe this corollary henceforth so that the onus is on those currently legislating to ensure consistency with what has gone before.

The interpretation and execution of motions is at the discretion of the First Consul, although the Senate will no doubt take a view on whether the interpretations are reasonable and may take action accordingly in the next session. Some of the interpretations proposed by the current First Consul - on the words "Roman" and "authorises" in particular - do seem questionable and clearly contrary to the will of the Senate.

Braden

06-22-2006, 12:05

Then perhaps the Senate would be best served to clarify its general intent for the 2nd half of the Consuls tenure?

From the motions that have been carried I would gauge that the Senate wishes the Consul to:
1) Fully withdraw, with no delay, from Gaul
2) Prepare for a pre-emptive strike against the Greeks (accepting that it is impossible to actually undertake such a task this Consulship)
3) Complete construction of a Fleet
4) Continue integration of all the provinces towards Auxilia training

I hope that the Consul judges the Senates intent in a very similar way. I am but a lowly scribe but often tasked to “interpret” my masters wishes, so perhaps best suited to thus interpret the Senates overall wishes at this time.

Whilst I voted for an extension to the debate period, I am now worried that perhaps MORE debate can lead only to more confusion within the Senate.

TinCow

06-22-2006, 12:22

I spoke out of frustration with this body and results that I do not agree with. However, I will do my duty as a Roman. None will ever be able to say that I shirked my responsibilities. Nor would I ever send a single Roman or Italian to certain death, not even my worst enemy. One drop of Roman blood is worth a sea from any other people and petty political disputes will never change that. If I must send an expedition to Greece, then I will send one in force with capable leadership.

However, this does not mean the situation is even remotely safe. Legios I, II and III simply cannot be moved south without exposing all of Italy to the northern barbarians. Similarly, Legio V cannot leave Sicily while the Punic fleet provides a constant threat of invasion. As such, only Legio IV Gallica in Southern Italy is available for this task. Legio IV makes the most sense as the assault force, since they are both the closest and responsible for the defense of Italy against the Greeks. With a Greek city taken, the threat to Italy will certainly be diverted to that spot, thus leaving Legio IV without a need to be at its station.

Yet, Legio IV Gallica will be alone, isolated across the sea, and without possibility of reinforcement for a significant time. It is simply impossible for the Republic to raise yet another Legion and still maintain the building programs that the Senate desires to be completed. A new Legion cannot be raised to aid Legio IV Gallica nor can new units be created to reinforce them. The only other available force in the Republic is Consular I Army which, as you know, is currently in Gaul.

With all of this in mind, I have had a private meeting with Senator Quintus. Despite our differences, I believe that if this expedition is to have any hope of success, it must be lead by our greatest General. I think few would dispute my reasoning that this is Quintus. He will depart immediately and assume command of Legio IV Gallica from Publius Pansa, who will in turn hold position at the former Legio IV base until a new Legion can be built around him. Quintus will set sail immediately, landing outside Apollonia, a walled city that is closest to our territories and thus most easily reinforced. He will assault and take the city and then hold it until Consular I Army can arrive.

The Senate should be aware of the extreme danger that Legio IV Gallica and Senator Quintus will be in. The Greeks are very powerful and have numerous Consular sized armies in their territories. Consular I Army will move with all possible haste to allow the relief of Legio IV if it becomes endangered, but even at maximum speed this may take upwards of two years. Until then Quintus will be alone in hostile lands.

I would urge any messages of encouragement or support be said to Senator Quintus with haste. He will be departing for Apollonia within the day and will only be able to communicate via courier for some time.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-22-2006, 12:43

I applaud this strategy and wish both acting consul Verginius and consul Quintus much succes in their respective endavours.

Braden

06-22-2006, 13:27

Many offerings to Mars and Jupiter will be made this eve in the name of Quintus, and prayers given to Mercury and Saturn so that they may speed Consular I to Quintus’s aid.

…and lastly sacrifices to Proserpine and Pluto, so that all of the Underworlds fury be sent forth at the Greeks!

econ21

06-22-2006, 13:55

[QUINTUS]: Senators, I am grateful to the First Consul for giving this old war horse the chance for one last ride. Harsh words have passed between us but now is not the time to let personal animosities affect matters of state.

And yet, while I am eager to hear the cry of battle again, I do feel a sense of unease about where I am marching to.

Senators, I have a confession to make. Verginius may not have been too far from the truth when he said my old age had unhinged me. I voted for motion 6.6 on the foolish misapprehension that it required only the infiltration of a spy into a Greek settlement - not an assault by a "small" army. Such are the follys of old age. A man of 61 cannot read a few lines of text as well as a boy of 7.

Had I realised that the motion proposed marching a small force into a land easily reinforced from the Greek heartlands, I would not have supported it. Such a move seems reckless, to say the least.

I believe the settlement north of Apollonia is garrisoned by a Consular sized army. It is in marching distance of Apollonia. If our spies cannot open the gates to Apollonia, I fear this large army will immediately march to intercept my force while it is still outside, beseiging the city. The odds will be against us.

Even if we succeed in taking the town, it is but a season or two's march from the main Greek cities and encroachment on their turf will surely provoke a vigorous response.

Neither the First Consul nor I truly wish to undertake this expedition. I have given my reasons for this reluctance. The First Consul's passion and eye remains fixed on the destruction of Gaul. But we both feel that honour compells us to obey the will of the Senate in this case without hesitation or equivocation. That our own intemperate public confrontations have forced this to be a matter of honour for both us is a bitter irony that is perhaps the gods rightful punishment for our vanity and ill-temper.

Senators, I must take my leave and prepare to sail. I will write frequently of my progress. Now that I have unburdened myself of my confession, I hope the Senate will put the fraught debates of the past few days behind us and support the First Consul and I in the difficult time to come.

x-dANGEr

06-22-2006, 14:20

Reckless! Reckless!! That's what avenging a Roman woman's blood called?! The whole assault comes down to one thing, if the city has walls, we will use them to our defence and maybe hold off the assault till further reinforcements arrive. If the city doesn't have walls, we will sack it, disturbing the Greek lines and giving the Illyrians a chance to attack their front lines. I'm here to fight, and having me execute this assault will shorten the need of getting a whole army here.

Braden

06-22-2006, 14:48

Which spy has the Consul to support the invasion?

econ21

06-22-2006, 15:09

[QUINTUS]: Senator Vibius Pleminus, I appreciate your eagerness for this command. I am attempting to request to the First Consul that you be allowed to accompany our expedition as my Tribune, however, he is not currently receiving private messages. I would be honoured if you would join me.

However, I do hope you realise exactly what the expedition is walking into. With no immediate prospect of reinforcements, marching into the Greek heartlands, it is possible that no one will return. This would be no great tragedy in the case of an old fool like me, but you, Senator, have a promising career ahead of you.

x-dANGEr

06-22-2006, 16:17

Dying for the Republic of Rome is the career I'm after, Senator Quintus.

TinCow

06-22-2006, 23:03

Which spy has the Consul to support the invasion?

The closest agent to Apollonia was Cassius Paulinus, who was monitoring the Illyrian front. He is already near the city and has been ordered to attempt an infiltration when Legio IV lands on the coast. Quintis Classicianus has journey from Gaul to take up Cassius' former duties in Illyria and will support Legio IV in the event that Cassius fails.

Do not think that I have forgotten your services, Senator Curtius. Your reports from Africa continue to be of immense value in monitoring the Punic-Numidian War. You have informed me of many great battles. The general picture that has emerged is that the Numidians have fended off Punic might through sheer numbers and have even held Carthaginian cities for a short time, but they are consistently falling to far smaller Punic armies that are better armed. It is a slow process, but the war is slowly turning in Carthage's favor.

As for Senator Vibius Pleminus, I shall grant your request. In such a difficult situation, an experienced Tribune would be most helpful to Quintus and Legio IV. However it is a long trip from Legio III's fort in Cisalpine Gaul to Tarentum. Senator Quintus will have preceded you by six months by the time you arrive. He will have to do without you in the initial fight to take the city, but with any luck the city will remain free of siege long enough for you to slip in. I salute your bravery; with more men such as you, Rome shall rule the world.

TinCow

06-23-2006, 00:07

Senators, I wish to report that Fortuna has smiled upon Rome and the expedition to Apollonia has begun with great success.

Cassius Paulines and Placus Laelius journeyed through the Illyrian warzone to reach the city by land, prior to the arrival of Legio IV Gallica. Cassius scouted the city for a short time and noticed the presence of a Greek agent watching the city for just such an infiltration as was about to be attempted. Placus Laelius slipped into the city and skillfully eliminated the man. This allowed Cassius to freely roam the city and he was able to bribe the gate guards to abandon their posts only days before Legio IV arrived.

Senator Quintus has surprise on his side and will be able to assault the city without waiting for a prolonged siege. With luck, he will have fully fortified the city and prepared its defenses long before the Greeks can arrive in force.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/apollonia_1.jpg

Mount Suribachi

06-23-2006, 08:54

Quintus the Victor, as ever. Jupiter blessed our Republic greatly when he gave us a man of Quintus's undoubted talent. Now excuse me, I must give thanks and make offerings for the success of our Hellenic expedition.

Braden

06-23-2006, 08:56

If a message of gratitude and continued support can reach Senator Quintus I hope that the Senate can convey their continued astonishment at the Senators ability to be able to succeed when the odds are stacked against him.

May I be the first to send my personal support to him at this time, and a special mention must be made for our covert team that arrived in the city and enabled Quintus to enter without delay.

Surely, their actions deserve note and reward.

My best wishes and Gods speed go to Senator Vibius Pleminus, in the hope that he arrives and can join Quintus before the Greeks arrive. As do the same sentiments go to our Consul and the armies he sends to Quintus’s aid.

Make haste fellow Romans, with a truly heroic venture such as this Mars does not expect failure.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-23-2006, 09:32

A good start to this bold and risky venture. The Greeks have great amounts of troops in the vicinity and they will be sure to launch a powerful counterstrike. Then again, our men have the advantage of our best general and a good defensive position. Can we we hold out long enough for reinforcements to arrive ? I am all my free spending all my available time pleading with the Gods to stand with our brave men in their our of need and I urge my fellow senators to do likewise.

TinCow

06-23-2006, 15:35

Quintus' victories were inspired and his losses few, but he shall need every last man. As expected, the Greeks immediately invested Apollonia in the Autumn. The force is small and Quintus will surely destroy it, but it will continue to bleed his strength...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/apollonia_2.jpg

Glaucus

06-23-2006, 15:49

Is that ANOTHER stack I see further up along the Dalamtia coast? I shall indeed pray for you and your men, Quintus.

x-dANGEr

06-23-2006, 16:19

Someone enters the great halls of the Senators, and addresses the gathering.

Vibius Pleminius has left this note to be read when he embarks on his adventure:

"Dear Senators,

I now ride to Greece, to the land of myths and spears. This journey was started upon my request, and I find it pleasing for you to accept it. A huge burden it is for Senator Quintus to carry, especially at such an age. And I appreciate it more; your trust, to let me accompany him in this deadly voyage. I'm currently travelling as fast as I can to support him, and I hope time won't fail me. Just one favor I ask of you, and that is to take care of my wife, if I may die for the glory of the Republic."

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-23-2006, 16:44

You bravery does you credit, senator Vibius Pleminius, be assured my prayers will accompany you.

Avicenna

06-23-2006, 17:10

Senator Pansa, you underestimate Senator Quintus' military prowess. Do you not recall that he single-handedly destroyed the Punic armies on Corsica?

Nevertheless, I wish you luck. May the gods smile upon us all!

shifty157

06-23-2006, 17:31

I would just like to commend our first consul on the wonderful job he is doing in all aspects of his rule but most specifically in the area of preparing our cities for the recruitment of auxilia and ultimately true roman soldiers. Future consuls will be indebted to the senate foremost for having the foresight to see the necessity of this improvement for future generations and our current consul for executing the senate's orders in a prompt and effective manner.

TinCow

06-24-2006, 01:27

The Greeks seem to be growing more determined to oust Legio IV Gallica from their territory. A larger force than last season has besieged Apollonia. While it is led by a mere captain, he has brought with him a group of fanatical Spartans. It is rumored that in addition to their impressive skills, they possess the physical strength of three normal men. We shall see...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/apollonia_3.jpg

TinCow

06-24-2006, 18:31

Senators,

As you will surely know, if you have read the updated First Consul Report, two seasons have passed since Quintus' great victory over the Spartans at Apollonia. Yet, it seems like an eternity. I have moved Consular I Army as fast as humanly possible, and we are within sight of the transport fleet. We shall be able to embark and relieve Legio IV Gallica in the Autumn.

I fear, however, that we shall be too late.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/relief.jpg

I have written to you with haste, but it is inevitable that even as you read these words, Legio IV Gallica will be in her darkest hour. The assault has begun, Senators, and I fear how it will end. Quintus, Vibius Pleminius, and all of Legio IV Gallica are vastly outnumbered by quality enemy troops who are determined to take the city. More lie in wait nearby. If they hold for the remainder of this season, Consular I Army can arrive in strength and aid them against the other Greek forces. If they hold... If they hold...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/apollonia_4.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Consulship/apollonia_general.jpg

I ask you, Senators, to pray as you have never prayed before. Make personal sacrifices to Jupiter, Fortuna, Mars and Mercury along with any other God you hold favor with. Senator Quintus and Senator Vicius Pleminius are brave men, but without divine intervention, surely they will fall. I fear the seas will soon run red with noble Roman blood.

SwordsMaster

06-24-2006, 18:40

I never supported this war senators, but as we have embarked in it, I believe we must bring it to a favourable resolution. Besides, after all the efforts that Quintus has made for this republic it would be unfair to him to let him die in foreign land. I senators, volunteer to bring reinforcements to Greece by the land route, hopefully diverting some of the greek reinforcements to confront me, and with Mars' help arrive there before our brave army is sent to the other side of Charon's river.

I request a praetorian army, Senators, and I put myself forward to command it and lead it wherever the Gods want me to lead it.

Glaucus

06-24-2006, 18:51

Forgive me, but are you not a mere tribune? What right have you to lead a Praetorian Force? No offense meant, but I think your service would be better leading a legion or, better yet, as a secondary officer in a legion. I seem to remember that you are a Skilled Bureaucrat, should you not govern a city? We already have a full consular Army re-inforcing Quintus, and our money would be better spent promoting economic growth, not seending more young Roman boys away from home.

By any means, I would like to congratulate Quintus on another stunning victory. We should have time to reinforce him now, and all of Greece opens up to us.

Finally, I would like to thank this house and Consul Verginius for allowing me to serve the Republic once more in the field. I will not let you down !

SwordsMaster

06-24-2006, 19:34

I am merely putting myself at the disposition of the Senate as I believe this is a good moment to strike from a different direction to divert attention from Quintus' army.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-24-2006, 20:30

x-dANGEr

06-24-2006, 20:50

A letter reaches the Senate from the front, carried by a farmer wearing filthy clothes. It is from Vibius Pleminius.

"Senators, I write to you after my first battle, the one that happened in Winter. The terrifying night was awaken by the steps of hoplites, and the torches of Romans. It has been a nasty fight, but just a pinch from the great hoards we hear about. One brave man of my escort had fallen, Vagitus Amelius, I'm writing to you hoping that you'd deliver the news of his death to his wife and family, for he died with honour each person would like to bear. He charged alone into a horde of greeks; greeks grouping on one roman warrior, and by that lost his soul, to honour and glory rather than shame and death. The situation gets harder by the fall of another sun, and the rise of another moon. Rumors come to us that an army of 2000 men is marching to us, 2000 led by a lion.

The men are eager, they're all happy to lead this journey, to be amongst the first to start our expedition into the greek lands mythology. The many victories they had had cheered them up more and more. In fact, their spirits only got strengthened by the death of every other man, for with every death, another reason, another goal, another hope is formed in the horizon. The streets of the city are decorated by the shiny shields of Spartans, the land outside it watered with blood, and packed with bodies. It is fear greeks feel when they approach us, and it is saviour we give by killing them.

The word I am to write, is a word I feel shame writing. Reinforcements are needed, and fast. For staying in this city is only killing our spirit, and it will be almost a year soon that we stand taking hits, rather than hitting. If Quintus is to die -Which I fear, and pray not-, I just want to assure you that I've been known for my good commanding skills, even better, my defending ones. I may not reach or even come near the great skills of Quintus, but I hope I won't fail you either.

At all costs, help is essential; fast and furious. I will write to you if we live another session, so wait for my next answer, may it ever arrive."

TinCow

06-24-2006, 21:46

I must say I am disappointed that we have not agreed to the offer of alliance of the Illyrians. Their request for a tiny sum for an extended period would hardly make a dent in our profits and it would greatly assist our efforts in the war with the Greek cities. Perhaps next time we will not be so hasty to turn down their offer.

A formal alliance with the Illyrians would do little but to put in writing what is already occuring. They will fight the Greeks and Macedonians whether we ally with them or not. They are in a struggle for survival that will not be influenced by Republican politics. Not a single thing would be changed by this alliance and thus I did not see a reason why we should pay and receive no benefit. If the Illyrians had demanded 6,300 dinarii immediately, I suspect your feelings would have been different. The only effect it would have would be to assist the Illyrians in funding their war effort. If the Senate wishes to do this, I suggest a motion be proposed at the next session, barely one year from now.

GeneralHankerchief

06-24-2006, 22:48

A messenger arrives at the Senate floor, carrying a letter. Without a word he hands the letter to the Senate Speaker, who reads it aloud.

"To: Ex-Consul Quintus
CC: Roman Senate

From: Quintis Classicianus

'Good Ex-Consul, I pray that this message will get to you in good time. I ask you to be vigilant! If you can hold off this one Greek army then your work will be done.

I am currently stationed in Illyria, as you know. While the Illyrians are hapless in open-field combat, they fight like lions when defending a city, usually Dalmatia. Here the Greek and Macedonian armies continue to bleed.

Surely Greece can not keep this up, losing so many armies to both you and Illyria. As long as you defeat this last army, Consular I Army will arrive and surely Greece will have nothing left to counter it. I tell you again: Be vigilant! After this, the land of Olympus will be ours!'"

flyd

06-24-2006, 23:14

It should have been clear from the start that a small-scale invasion such as this, with no reserve forces, was a foolish idea. Although I suppose I don't have grounds to complain, as I should have pointed this out while the motion was being voted upon. I fear I was too distracted by other matters being discussed during the previous session. In any case, I'm confident that Quintus will be victorious, or, at the very least, take many Greeks with him.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-25-2006, 00:08

If the Senate wishes to do this, I suggest a motion be proposed at the next session, barely one year from now.

I already did that, but it failed.

OOC : Isn't it worth the money to fight battles together with the Illyrians ? The best battle I've ever played was with a small German army (allies) coming in as reinforcements. I only had a battered legion against 1.5 Macedonian stack (on VH). I thought I was toast, but the Germans went absolutely psycho on the Macedonians and altough they were routed eventually, I won the battle with 80 men standing or something. I would have paid 30K to see that battle again ~:)

x-dANGEr

06-25-2006, 09:00

Avicenna

06-25-2006, 17:17

And how, senator, I ask you this. How can our honour be stained by not attacking the Greeks?

Mount Suribachi

06-25-2006, 20:12

It is irrelevant now Senators. Vibius Pleminius has given his life in service of the Roman Republic, dying a glorious death on the battlefield - a death that he knew full well might be his reward for bravery, courage and Roman virtue.

The stand made by Quintus, Vibius and Legion IV will go down in Roman history as one of the greatest battles ever fought by our Republic. Mark my words Senators, in years to come, historians will rank Appollonia alongside Thermopylae, Quintus alongside Leonidas and Legio IV alongside the 300 Spartans. I salute the bravery and fighting spirit of our soldiers, and the leadership of Quintus and Vibius.

I shall give thanks offerings to Jupiter Optimus Maximus that he has seen fit to bless out city with men such as these two.

And Consul Augustus Verginius, I have a request. I not only supported the motion to launch an attack on Greece, I actively promoted it. Yet it was other men that went to their deaths whilst I lay idle in Italia. I beg of you Consul, send me to Greece with the next batch of reinforcements, that I may avenge the death of Vibius the Brave, and salve my own guilty concience with Hellenic blood.

Avicenna

06-25-2006, 20:25

Well spoken, friend Amulius! But, alongside Thermopylae? No, senator. Above that! Remember that the Greeks lost, but our Roman arms have triumphed against seemingly insurmountable odds! This is surely the greatest triumph of history!

Senator Quintus, I express my deepest sympathies for your loss, and it weighs heavily on my heart as well, as although he was only my step-brother, he was very close to me. My condolences to Vibius' wife as well, the lovely Severina.

Enough of the grieving. This loss is truly a tragic one for Rome, and not one that will go unavenged. Any and all Greeks will be met by Roman forces and crushed. Their presence is intolerable, and their precious artifacts are fit to be sent to Rome as a compensation for the death of a true Roman.

TinCow

06-25-2006, 21:53

And Consul Augustus Verginius, I have a request. I not only supported the motion to launch an attack on Greece, I actively promoted it. Yet it was other men that went to their deaths whilst I lay idle in Italia. I beg of you Consul, send me to Greece with the next batch of reinforcements, that I may avenge the death of Vibius the Brave, and salve my own guilty concience with Hellenic blood.

Friend Amulius, you have been with me from the beginning of my term. You served with me in every Gallic battle, have risked your life leading the Italian horse into enemy flanks, and even commanded entire Legion sized detachments in multiple battles. You serve with me to this very day and stand ready to cross the sea with Consular I Army, with whom you have served the past four long years. Senator Quintus has seen enough of war. He deserves peace and quiet in Rome, where he can see his four daughters and spend the remainder of his days forgetting the horrors of war. Amulis, you shall continue to serve with Consular I Army in the defense of Apollonia. There are three great Greek armies still nearby and much danger lies ahead. I do not know where the war will take us nor do I have any plans for Greece beyond reinforcing Apollonia, but whatever occurs, you will be there.

flyd

06-26-2006, 00:15

econ21

06-26-2006, 00:29

[QUINTUS]: A small correction, Legate Tiberius Coruncanius, the Greeks inflicted 572 casualties upon us at Apollonia but not all died. 258 of them were prisoners or wounded, who became fighting fit at soon after the encounter.

As for the young Pleminius, I will not hear a word spoken against him. We have bled the Greeks at Apollonia and established a foothold in the rich lands of Greece and Macedon. I daresay he has set the course for the next First Consul, as it will be a brave politician who turns back now. Often the hero leading from the the front may fall, but it is the duty of his comrades to see the matter through to its end.

TinCow

06-26-2006, 04:46

Conscript Fathers, it is with great relief thay I lay down the heavy burden of the Consulship. Though I am pleased with the results of my term, it would be a lie to say it was an easy and entirely pleasant affair. I encountered unexpected difficulties both in war and in politics and I am tired of battling so many foes at once. Many may desire this position as I did, but I say to them, beware of what you wish for. No one man controls the Republic and the more you try to do so, the harder you shall fall.

Now, my parting words. I shall divide this into two sections, the current state of affairs, and my advice on the times to come.

The State of the Republic:

The maps reflect little change in the dominion of the Republic, but in reality much has changed. During the course of my term, only one new province has been acquired by the empire. In addition, our military forces are actually weaker than they were at the beginning of my term. During the entirety of my Consulship, I raised a grant total of one cohort each of Hastati, Principes and Triarii, all to reinforce Legio III Sicilia Aemilia early in my term. For the remainder of my time in office, I made do with those forces available to me. Instead, the majority of my efforts were diverted towards investments in the domestic economy and infrastructure. This is perhaps best conveyed through some simple figures.

Dinarii Looted From Gallic Settlements: 31,500
Starting Treasury: 5,045
Ending Treasury: 12,502
Starting Seasonal Income: 4,806
Ending Seasonal Income: 12,265
Infrastructure Improvements Invested In:
3 x Integration
11 x Auxilia Phase I
8 x Auxilia Phase II
2 x Auxilia Phase III
4 x Basic Roads
2 x Paved Roads
3 x Governor's Villa
1 x Governor's Palace
1 x Safe Harbor
1 x Market
1 x Scriptorium

I would like to further note that Senator Quintus is in the process of assuming the position of Governor of Latium. It is my belief that he wishes to remain in this post for the remainder of his life, though he may, of course, confirm of deny that on his own. Furthermore I regret to say that Senator Lucius Aemilius' vigil over the Massilia crossing has preventing him from returning to Rome throughout the duration of my Consulship. As such, he has not been given the Triumph which was voted him by this body. I do hope an opportunity can be made for him to be properly celebrated.

In foreign affairs, the Gallic Expedition was a major success and the Massilia crossing has not been tested in nearly 3 years. Though the Gauls remain at war with us, they are but a husk of their former power. They shall never again trouble any nation. However, the Iberians have gained a vast amount of power and may become more of a threat than the Gauls ever were. Having expelled the Carthaginians and united all of the Iberian peninsula under their control, they are now pursuing an aggressive war against our passive friends, Germania. Germania in turn is being pressed from both sides by Iberian and Thrace and will surely be engulfed in due time. The Republic will soon find itself confronting an enemy that controls not only a united Gaul, but all of Iberia and much of Germania as well. The Iberians will come for us in time, and much Roman blood will be shed to defeat them.

In the east, the Apollonia expedition has succeeded, though at the price of many Roman sons and even Senator Vibius Pleminius. The Illyrian War continues, though the Greeks have dropped out to pursue their conflict with us. Still, Macedon continues to grow in power and their capture of Dalmatia may mark the beginning of the end for Illyria. In addition, their war with Thrace is proceeding well and they may soon take control of most of the northern side of the Danube.

In the south, Carthage has been involved in a long and costly war with Numidia. They are slowly gaining the upper hand and the fall of Capsa is inevitable. However the conflict will continue for many years and Carthage will thus be pre-occupied with that region for much time to come.

So, we move now to my thoughts on the future. As noted above, I refrained from nearly all military expenditures in favor of domestic investments. This has paid off and our income has now nearly tripled. I believe that domestic investments should be continued, but I also believe that it is once again time to strengthen the Legions and perhaps recruit more. I believe that major investments should be made for Provincial Barracks in Massilia and Patavium to allow for front-line training of Roman soldiers without requiring a lengthy journey from the central Italian territories. Legio IV Gallica essentially needs to be recreated and I believe that a Legio VI should be raised. A banner for it should be available under Publius Pansa, if he is promoted to Legate (for which he is ready) if he is relieved of command of Legio IV first.

What to do with these armies? In the northwest, the Massilia crossing is secure and the Gauls do not threaten us. To the south, the Carthaginians are preoccupied with the Numidians and will continue to be for some time. Though Legio V must remain in Sicily to protect against an invasion, the Punic forces are unlikely to engage us for some time. For better or for worse, we are now engaged in a heavy conflict in the Greek homelands. Consular I Army is still strong and capable of campaigning. We are at war with the Greeks and the majority of our strength is prepared to strike at the Greek homelands. We should drive home the dagger now, destroy them and capture their rich cities.

By nature, this must involve war with Macedon. They are the allies of the Greeks and their territories are so intertwined that an attack on one requires journeying through the territories of the other. We should, commit to total war in the Balkans against both the Greeks and Macedonians and strive to capture all territories from Sparta to Byzantium. Towards this ends, I believe that Consular I Army should be sent out to begin the conquests. I believe further that Legio IV should be returned to full strength and, along with a newly raised Legio VI, sent to follow in Consular I Army's footsteps. Furthermore, I believe a second front should be opened in the north, with Legio II. After being strengthed as the others, I believe it should advance east and begin active military campaigning with the Illyrians against the Macedonians, to distract them in the north while our main thrust guts them in the south.

Furthermore, I do not believe that expenditures need to be made to expand the fleet. The current transport ships are sufficient to move an entire Consular strength force across the waters between Tarentum and Apollonia in a single season, if done in shifts. This should be our main invasion route and military expenditures should go to strengthing our current legions and raising new ones, not to building ships which will do us no good on land.

I believe that much of this can be embodied in Senatorial motions, but I shall refrain from proposing any until there has been a proper amount of time for the new candidates to come forward.

I am, as always, the humble servant of the Republic.

Augustus Verginius

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/265summer.zip

[Senate Librarian]

*Ahem*

Pardon the interruption, Senators. I simply wish to announce that, due to the large number of changes in the Republic since last I was summoned, the new information will not be available until tomorrow. I hope you will forgive the delay.

Glaucus

06-26-2006, 05:03

Sent from Appollonia:

Congratulations on a fine term as First Consul. And also on those several crushing victories against the Greeks. All I can say is, please don't kill them all, I want to get some as well, as revenge for the lose of so many good Roman men.

I would also like to give my thanks on behalf of the Republic to ex-Consul Quintus. He served us all well in Sicily, in Corsica, in Sardinia, and now in Greece. At least we can all sleep sound at night knowing Latium is in safe hands.

Publius Pansa

PS, could some one tell me if my wife Domitilla has bourn me any children?

econ21

06-26-2006, 07:45

[SENATE SPEAKER]: With First Consul Verginius's end of term report, we can now formally open a Senate session to debate the selection of his successor and propose motions.

We have three days in which candidates can present manifestoes offering themselves up for election and in which motions can be presented. The precise deadline will be Wednesday 6pm UK time. There will then be a 24 hour period of voting and the First Consul will take office Thursday 6pm UK time.

I remind Senators that motions need two seconders who should explicitly say "I second motion 7.x". In addition, any motion in contradiction to an earlier motion, including one proposed earlier in the present session, should state "This motion invalidates motion x"; otherwise the earlier motion will be given precedence.

Mount Suribachi

06-26-2006, 09:52

Senator Laevinus, how can you classify this as a victory? 572 Romans died today. That is about half as much as died during entire terms of the past two Consuls. And for what? So we could hold on to Apollonia? So we could hold on to it before an essentially undefeatable Consular army arrived? Although those men were heros, their lives were still thrown away. You are right about one thing, this battle doesn't compare to Thermopylae, for there the Greeks performed a useful holding action. There was no true urgency in our situation.

Senator Quintus can't really be blamed, even though he lost a battle, he did the best that could be expected given the situation. Consul Verginius can't quite be blamed either, as there was a motion comitting him to the invasion. Indeed, it happens that it was Pleminius who proposed that motion; it seems fair that he didn't make it.

Father forgive me for speaking out, but you are being short-sighted in your appraisal.

For the loss of 300 men and one Roman Senator we have defeated 3 Greek armies, killed over 2000 of their warriors. We have taken one of their most important cities and added it to our Republic, denying the Greeks its income and adding to ours. Finally, and most importantly, we have turned the Greeks attention from Illyria, which was after all the purpose of this expedition. Now we have a secure foothold in Greece, we can drive onwards and punish them for the war they started!

Senator Verginius, I congratulate you on your successful term as Consul, and I thank you for the priviledge of having served under you, and for your continued graciousness in sending me to Greece. I agree with almost everything you say regarding the state of the Republic, and I am most gratified by the huge increase in our seasonal income.

I shall have motions to propose this evening once I have had time to study the condition of the Republic in detail.

econ21

06-26-2006, 10:12

[SENATE SPEAKER]: In view of the controversy generated by contradictory motions, I have embarked on a radical spring cleaning and am instituting a new procedure.

Henceforth all regular motions - including those in interim sessions - will last only for the duration of the standing First Consul.

The only exceptions are motions which are explicitly declared to be consitutional ammendments, in which case they will require a 2/3 majority and last until explicitly revoked by a 2/3 majority.

I am using my perogative as Speaker to categorise existing motions in effect as constitutional ammendments or not.

The following motions will be regarded as constitutional ammendments (and remain in play):

MOTION 1.9: This House proposes that, where reasonable, generals from the Lower House be tasked with military duties. Specially that, where reasonable, they:
a) be rotated through the post of governor of Capua
b) end their turns outside of settlements

Note: for (a), any settlement with a temple of Mars can be substituted for Capua. The priest of Mars ancillary is a very valuable addition to a young general's retinue.

MOTION 1.10: In acknowledgement of their duties, this House agrees to reward:
(a) the Senate Librarian, Augustus Verginus, (TinCow) with a Librarian Ancillary.
(b) the Senate Fixer, Lucius Amelius (DDW), with a Scribe Ancillary.
At the first opportunity, the First Consul is mandated to transfer said ancillaries accordingly, without requiring the consent of any other Senators.

Note: in practice, this motion has been superceded by the assignment of the Offices of Aedile to DDW, Censor to TinCow and Pontifex Maximimus to econ21.

MOTION 3.13: This house authorises the First Consul to declare war on any army entering our territory, if he deems it necessary for the defense of the Republic.

Motion 4.7: We will strive to make alliances with Armenia, Bactria, Germany, Samartia and Parthia unless a senate motion explicitly declares otherwise.

Note: this motion authorises the First Consul to enter into alliance with any of the above factions.

Motion 6.11: This house proposes that, due to the controversy surrounding the First Consul's decision to give several settlements to the Germanians, it be made constitutional law that the exchange of settlements must be outlined in Senate motions from now on.

Motion 6.15: Senate sessions will have 3 days for debate (1 for voting) rather than 2 days for debate (1 for voting).

The following motions are not constitutional ammendments and are hence deemed to have lapsed:

MOTION 1.5: This house requires that trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Carthage & Macedon but excluding Gaul) in the next four years and steps should be taken to contact all other powers with the goal of trading and spreading roman culture to the whole of the mediterranean within 15 years.

Motion 5.4: Consolidate. We need roads. Walls. Armouries. Cities that cannot build walls, should be within 1 turns marching distance of a strongly garrisoned fort.

Motion 5.7: This House instructs the First Consul to develop at least one settlement for the recruitment of Gallic auxiliaries.

Motion 5.8: The Senate authorises the construction of a fortification to house and further defend the border legion at the river crossing north of Massilia.

Motion 6.5: By the end of his reign, [Augustus Verginius] must have begun the process of auxiliary integration in all provinces in our empire.

Motion 6.6: A small army along with a spy is to be sent to a 'backroom' Greek city, to establish a future base for a larger expedition later on, and disturb the Greek lines buying the Illyrians time to turn the tide.

Motion 6.8: This house instructs the First Consul, after raiding Bourges, to return all Roman troops back to the Republic. The raided Gallic settlements of Gergovia and Comata are to be left as buffers between us and Iberia and Germany.

Motion 6.13: The Senate authorises the completion of a Consular fleet for transport and defence purposes.

One motion is neither a consitutional ammendment, nor can it be allowed to lapse:

Motion 5.1: This House grants First Consul Lucius Aemilius a triumph. This is on account of his successful conquest of Cisalpine Gaul, Massilia and the island settlements of Melte, Aleria and Caralis with relatively little loss. It notes the generous role of the First Consul in providing opportunities for other members of the Lower House to give battle on Rome's behalf.

To carry out this motion, at the earliest convenience, the next First Consul should return Lucius Aemilius with his army to Roma and retrain them if they do not currently have the finest weapons and armour available.

I hope the Senate will forgive me for exercising my perogative in this way. Note that if any Senator wishes to reinstate any of the above motions (e.g. motion 6.13), they are free to propose it as a new motion this session.

econ21

06-26-2006, 10:20

[QUINTUS]: I must congratulate Augustus Verginius on a most successful term as First Consul. Although we have had our differences, regrettably in public at times, I can see that he has delivered on his two core manifesto pledges: to consolidate the Republic and to bring low our enemies the Gauls.

I also compliment the First Consul for his excellent reports and his insightful commentary on our current situation. His recent battles against the Greeks have been remarkably accomplished and I am sure future First Consuls will wish to call on his command talent whenever a particularly challenging assignment requires undertaking.

TinCow

06-26-2006, 12:08

In reviewing the Motions in effect for my Consulship, I fear that I have not entirely fulfilled Motions 6.5 and 5.4. I wish to explain my failures. Some of the Cisalpine provinces are still undergoing the process of Integration and it was not physically possible to move them towards Auxilia integration without skipping the construction of roads throughout the north. I believed, and still do, that the time spent on this network would yield far more immediate benefits than auxilia training, so I prioritized Governor's Villas and then Roads over early Integration and Auxilia training. Furthermore, Apollonia has not begun the process. For a long time it was unclear whether we would be able to hold the city and as such investment in it seemed short-sighted. Though in the last three to six months this may have been possible, I choose to direct the funds elsewhere and leave the future of the Greek provinces to my successor.

I have also failed in Motion 5.4. With the absense of Legio IV from southern Italy, there are no forces available to reach the southern cities within one season. I do, however, believe that this is an excessively cautious piece of legislation. We do not need to guard every single area of the Republic; we need only guard the borders. For this, I believe that there are currently four areas that must be defended. The Massilia crossing must, of course, continue to be held. The Patavium fort must be maintained. The Sicilian force should be sustained at an operational level, capable of action in Sicily or any of the Punic Isles. Finally, a defensive force must remain ready to protect Apollonia and any future Greek provinces that fall to us while our main armies are in the field.

I hope you can understand my failures and forgive them.

GeneralHankerchief

06-26-2006, 18:43

Due to recent events as so described by Consul Verginius, I believe it is time that we rethink our diplomacy somewhat.

Motion 7.1: If the Iberians declare war on us OR the Germans we are to push for an alliance with Germania.

Motion 7.2: The Consular army currently stationed in Greece is to push and try to capture further Greek settlements. In addition, it also authorizes the First Consul to declare war on Macedon as he sees fit.

Mount Suribachi

06-26-2006, 19:00

Senator Quintus Classicianus, I belive motion 7.1 is already covered by motion 4.7, a constitutional amendment.

I second motion 7.2

Avicenna

06-26-2006, 19:04

I would like to second motion 7.2.

Master Classicianus, I believe that you should withdraw or reword motion 7.1, as the Iberians are already at war with the Germanic tribes, and have already besieged one of their settlements, Alesia.

Mount Suribachi

06-26-2006, 19:54

Conscript Fathers, the issue I speak to you about is one I feel most strongly about. We have often talked about the Gods in this house, noble Senators. When news came that Augustus Verginius had been ambushed in Cisalpine Gaul, we all rushed to make offerings to Mars and Fortuna. When Quintus was caught by a huge Carthaginian army on Corsica, we trampled each other as we dashed to make offerings to Jupiter and Saturn.

And praise be to the Gods, they accepted our offering and heard our prayers - time and again we have triumphed victorious, against the odds. Do not be so quick to congratulate yourselves on these victories for they would not have been won with the Gods on our side!

But what have we done for the Gods conscript fathers? What have we done for them? Oh, we make a few offerings now and then - the greater the crisis the greater the compulsion we feel to bring them offerings. But I warn you Senators, the Gods are not some divine wish-list there to help us out of trouble! They are our protection, strength and guide! And as such they deserve to be worshiped and honoured!

Many times when I was on campaign in Gaul with Consul Augustus Verginius I knew that Jupiter Optimus Maximus was watching over me, guiding me, protecting me. I still remember the oath I swore after one battle, Gaulish blood coating my gladius and running down my arm. I swore then that I would honour Jupiter who guides and protects Rome and who guides and protects me. I swore that I would not let the great city of Jupiter Optimus Maximus continue to treat him like some rich and benevolent grandparent who we drop by to see whenever times are hard.

I commend former Consul Verginius for his foresight in constructing a Scriptorium in Roma, for our great city needs one. But once this is complete we can ignore the gods no longer. Therefore I propose

Motion 7.3 - An Awesome Temple of Jupiter will be constructed in Roma once the Scriptorium has been built

But Jupiter is not the only God we have neglected to honour. Time and again Mars has given us decisive victories on the battlefield, often against overwhelming odds. Capua has long been the training centre of the Roman Army. Again, Consul Verginius wisely began the construction of an improved road network round Capua, but once again, we must give honour to the God who imbues our army with his strength and might. Therefore I propose

Motion 7.4 - A Large Temple of Mars will be constructed in Capua once the road upgrade has been completed.

I hope this noble house will honour the Gods by agreeing to these proposals.

Silver Rusher

06-26-2006, 20:25

Senators, we really must consider the impact that the declaration of war on Germania by Iberia will have on us. Germany is far too weak to resist the force of the large and powerful Iberian army.

Let us look at this situation in perspective: Iberia and Thrace have begun hammering Germania. Germania, with most of their settlements gifted to them and not properly conquered, they have not had enough time to prepare a strong military. They will DEFINITELY not be able to hold out in a war on two fronts against the two 'barbarian' superpowers of the world. If Thrace and Iberia manage to conquer the lands of the Germanians, we will have two incredibly powerful factions on our borders, and this will greatly threaten the well-being of the republic.

Another diplomatic arrangement has come to our attention: The Greeks have made peace with Illyria. Because the Greeks' large army will now have nobody to attack if we withdraw from Epirus, (withdrawing from Epirus being my previous idea until I heard this news) they would be able to attack us if we did this. For this reason I believe we must capture and fortify all Greek owned settlements in Epirus. Any further expansion into Greece would be foolhardy, which is why I urge that motion 7.2 be amended to remove the authorization of war with Macedon. Macedon would simply create more problems and diversions for us if we went to war with them.

Now, back to the previous topic. I believe that we must ally with Germania (if motion 7.1 is amended as previously suggested I will second it) and provide any kind of assistance we can offer, whether this be troops, finances etc. When I learn more of the current situation I will propose a motion regarding this.

Finally, I would like to second motions 7.3 and 7.4. As a religious man myself I believe that these incredible victories we have won are not simply the doings of our generals, and continuing to honour the gods will surely give us even greater victories than the ones we have already had.

econ21

06-26-2006, 20:50

SENATE SPEAKER: I would urge candidates for the post of First Consul to step forward and present their manifestoes. They should offer leadership to the Senate. If they delay in revealing their hand, they may find themselves hindered by motions they do not support. Moreover, the Senate will not have sufficient time to debate their plans.

In the past two elections, candidates have presented the Senate with clear alternative directions and the choice between them has been the main theme of our deliberations.

Tricky Lady

06-26-2006, 21:04

Aaah, the Senate, been a while since I last visited Rome. Not much has changed since, at least not the quarters I like to visit.

Anyways, let's keep it short, so dear conscript fathers blabla or whatever... *sigh* I don't want to spend more time in this boring old man's club where hollow words are valued higher than firm actions.

I second both motions proposed by Amulius Coruncanius, those are motions 7.3 and 7.4, if I was correctly informed by my scribe.

And now back to solve more urgent matters.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-26-2006, 21:27

Honoured members of this house,

I wish to applaud the accomplishments of Augustus Verginius. Many of you look suprised that I, one of his fiercest critics during the midterm deliberations am one of those to laurel this hero with praise.
But Augustus was acting with a clear consience and it was the fault of the members of this house, for proposing such ill-phrased motions, that Augustus and the senate came at cross purposes. He has made incredibly progress in developing our country and our economy and we are now one of the richest countries that we know of. The only black moment in his reign was when we lost so many of our finest soldiers at the third battle of Appolonia, but once again, my lords, the blame falls on members of this house for making and supporting such foolish motions. Let this be a warning to all of us to think carefully how we exercise our democratic powers.

I have made a careful study of our present position and we seem to be in a difficult position. Around us several large countries are slowly swallowing their neighbours and growing incredibly powerful. The most powerful and dangerous of these are Iberia and the kingdom of Macedon. Their borders are moving toward us at an alarming rate and they both have immense amounts of resources and men under arms. While I am confident we can keep the barbarian Iberians at bay, the powerful, well-equipped and trained, armies of Macedon are almost the equal of Roman troops. Remember your history, my lords, and heed your history ! Once the Macedonians, under the legendary Alexander, conquered most of the known world all the way to the mysterious lands of the Indians. We should not underestimate them or we might face the same fate as that of Emperor Darius of the Persians.

I alone of you forsaw this danger and spotted it in its infancy. I proposed an alliance with the Illyrians so we could combat the growing might of the Macedonians together, but the shortsighted members of this house chose to vote my proposals down in favour of the ill-fated expedition to Appolonia. Now the Macedonians have grown twice as powerful and are defeating their enemies on all fronts. The Macedonians have conquered Dalmatia and are close to wiping out the Illyrians. Meanwhile the Iberians are moving into Gaul in strength. The hard-pressed Germans, already at war with Thrace, will not be able to hold them.
I do not believe they will stop at our border. We must act now, before we are forced into a desperate situation ! We must divide our enemies, seek allies at any price and break the power of the two nations that threaten our power the most.

Accordingly, I propose the following motions :

Motion 7.5 - We will actively pursue an alliance with Illyria, the enemies of the kingdom of Macedon, and will accept it if the terms do not exceed 1000 dinarii at once or less than 500 dinarii each year over an extended period.

Motion 7.6 - The consul will have the option to offer settlements back to the Illyrians that belonged to them historically, should they fall into our hands. This could also be used in the diplomatic negotiations.

Motion 7.7 - We will actively pursue an alliance with Germania, the enemies of the Iberians and will accept it if the terms do not exceed 1000 dinarii at once or less than 500 dinarii each year over an extended period.

Motion 7.8 - If the Iberians manage to take Alesia from the Germans, we will attack and take over the South of Gaul, concentrating on the Iberian controlled settlements. The acting consul will have full disgression in how to go about this and is allowed to wipe out the Gauls if he deems this necessary.

Motion 7.9 - As quickly as is feasible, and whether we have an alliance with the Illyrians or not, we will send the legions stationed in Cispine Gaul and attack the Macedonians as quickly as possible in Illyria itself.

I hate to be the one to propose such an agressive foreign policiy, but the threat to our nations grows daily and will quickly take on dramatic proportions unless we act immediately. I will accordingly second Motion 7.2.

As you all know I am a deeply religous (and supersitious) man, I will of course second Motion 7.3 and Motion 7.4. I also hope the next acting consul will continue to build more temples in our conquered territories, especially in Sicily, to let the people become used to Roman ways and Roman Gods, which will also help to reduce unrest and allow us to gather more taxes.

OOC : I also propose the following motions, out of character. I prefer discussion of these motions to be held in the out-of-character thread.

Motion OOC 1 : Acting consuls that have been awarded a triumph will be awarded with the Roman Hero trait. If they already posses this trait, the Hero trait will be increased to National Hero. If they already posses that trait, the trait will be increased to Legendary Hero.

Motion OOC 2 : As a reward for his great role playing Augustus Verginius is awarded with the trait 'Despises Trouser-wearers', to accentuate his hatred for the barbarians.

GeneralHankerchief

06-26-2006, 21:48

After some deliberation I find that Motion 7.7 falls nicely into what I was looking for. I withdraw Motion 7.1 and second 7.7.

I will not amend Motion 7.2. War will happen with Macedonia eventually. We should prepare ourselves for when the time comes.

In addition, I second the following motions:
7.3
7.4
7.5

Mount Suribachi

06-26-2006, 22:10

Senator, you offer some interesting proposals.

Regarding Iberia, given the military situation - especially one that you paint as so perilous - why in Jupiters name would you want to leave Massila and advance into southern Gaul? As has been proved time and again, the crossing at Massila is an easily defensible position. It appears that the war in Greece is going to be a difficult battle and I doubt we have the resources to fight on 2 fronts. So I say again, why leave Massila? We must focus on bringing the war in Greece to a swift and satisfactory conclusion.

Leave Iberia and Thrace to swallow up Germania. Their borders will be long and hard to defend, I doubt the stupid barbarians would be able to remain at peace for long.

Furthermore, having warned us about the dangers of Iberia and Thrace to the north, you propose sending our northern legions to Greece!

Finally, let me say how gratified I am to see my proposals seconded, clearly this house has not forgotten Jupiter and Mars.

x-dANGEr

06-26-2006, 22:15

(Speaking as x-dANGEr)

Senators.. I find it full of shame for you to title the journey, which six hundred brave souls made to Appolonia; knowing that death is an option, but still made it, out of desire, not out of fear, foolish. The what you call foolish, has given war a new dimension. The greek cities are known for wealth and trade, civilization and science, which's worth more than the blood of the filthy people, to the south and to the north.

War isn't only about death, about vengeance, about land, it is moreover about thoughts. The attack on the greeks would happen sooner or later, but the decision we faced was: Should it wait till it's stronger? Or better hold their advancement and stun them like a blooded snake?

Our heroes have fought bravely, those who live in the city say so. No man ran away, no man stepped back, they all fought as true romans. It makes me sad how you would label the lives of the many, with foolish. Was it a wrong decision? No, it was inevitable, sooner or later, but the earlier the better.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-27-2006, 00:00

Senators,

First of all, let me emphasize that our troops that died at Appolonia fought gallantly and displayed bravery that is a shining example to all of us. I grieves me that you would think I would call their display of military prowess foolish. It was the senate which displayed foolisheness by backing such a foolish motion sending such a small force into the Greek heartland. I myself am still in mourning for the loss of tribune Vibius Pleminius, one of our most promising young men.

Senator Amulius Coruncanius,

I agree with you that our initial focus should be the conflict in Greece and Illyria. The forces of the kingdom of Macedon are already just a days march away to the north from our beachhead in Appolonia and so is the Illyrian frontline. It is there that we should concentrate our efforts, before it is too late.

Thanks to the efforts of Augustus Verginius we now have a full treasury and a large recruitement pool. I suggest large amounts of troops to be raised immediately to replace the legions in our north who, in my opinion, should immediately move against the Macedonians. Eventually, we will be able to raise more troops for an offensive in Gaul. This will slow down our domestic development, but we have a large lead on our neighbours now and can afford to go on the offensive. The conquest of the Greek and Macedonian cities will provide us with sufficient funds to make up for this short term investment.

This may sound like a bold strategy, but in my experience attack is the best defense. We can wait untill Iberia has conquered Gaul and Germania, but by then they will be almost unstoppable. Even if every Roman soldier kills ten barbarians we could not hold them then. It is the wiser course to strike now, while they can still be stopped relatively easy.

TinCow

06-27-2006, 04:08

[Senate Librarian]

Senators, the Library is fully up to date with all pertinent information regarding the current state of the Republic. In addition, the Mausoleum is now open so that you may pay your respects to Vibius Pleminius, the first of what is sure to be a long list of departed patricians. If by some means I have neglected to include any desired information in any area, please inform me of my shortcomings and I shall strive to correct them as soon as possible.

SwordsMaster

06-27-2006, 07:55

*Gaius Rutilus rises, those close can see his eyes red, and smell the Sicilian wine*

I just arrived from Arretium, senators, and I spoke tosome of the centurions I knew from *frowns* back in my day. We mourned the dead. We cannot let go of Greece. *Takes a roll of parchment out of his toga*

Motion 7.10 A new legion, the VI Graeca is to be created and sent to Greece to aid our former First Consul in his conquest and help protect the territory by setting up forts in strategic positions.

And I volunteer my vote to whichever canddate for Consul who takes me away from Arretium's merchants and races. Five years is a long time, senators.

Avicenna

06-27-2006, 08:16

Senators of Rome, I would like to remind the next consul to ensure that motion 1.10 is carried out, as my brother Marcus has found a librarian accomplice, who can join the retinue of the distinguished Augustus Verginius.

I would also like to second motions 7.5, 7.7, 7.9 and 7.10.

However, I would like to name the new Legion Legio VI Achaea, as there is no such land as Graeca.

I also would like to propose a renaming of Legio IV Gallica, in view of her recent success against the Greeks.

Motion 7.11: Legio IV Gallica shall be renamed and henceforth be known as Legio IV Fortis (the braves).

Braden

06-27-2006, 12:38

Dusty and dressed in African robes a recognised statesman enters, Decius Curtius:

Noblemen of the Senate,

I have to first congratulate Ex-Consul Verginius on the work he’s done to strengthen the Republic. These public works may have been overshadowed by the more recent and heroic events in Greece but should still be recognised.

I thank you for the Republic.

I also must apologise for my appearance, but I thought it too many years since my last personal appearance Roma. Thankfully, a fast ship and following winds enables me to be here today but for only a short time. I must return to Afrika post haste.

I have come to lend my support to Motions:

Motions #7.4, 7.5, 7.6, 7.9, 7.10 & 7.11 are hereby seconded by myself it they need further support.

We have started something in Greece that we cannot hold back upon. We must concentrate ALL our efforts in defeating the Greek and Macedon forces as fast as possible. I care little for the Northern Barbarians, be they Iberian or Germainian…..we should continue to hold Massillia at this time and deal with the Barbarians IF they choose to be stupid enough to try to challenge us.

I believe Massillia will be soon capable of its own recruitment of line troops, this is good and it should be used as a base to re-enforce the river crossing and perhaps free up our seasoned troops already stationed there for other duties.

Silver Rusher

06-27-2006, 14:29

Senators! Calm down, now. I have sent out scouts to review the situation in Greece and Europe and they shall hopefully report back soon. It is very possible that Thrace and Iberia will go into a war with each other but that would be a foolish move for them to make. Let us think from their perspective: here we have two powerful barbarian peoples, having decimated another, would they go after each other, wasting vast amounts of troops or would they join together and attack us, while our armies are busy fighting a huge war against Macedon and the Greeks? Barbarians might be uneducated but they are humans, and humans are naturally resourceful.

This is not a good time for us, Senators. So, instead of bickering amongst ourselves we must think of a solution together. A war on two fronts is not what we want, but it is what will happen if we are not very careful.

A war between Thrace and Macedon would be greatly beneficial to us. Of course such things do not happen with a wish. If possible, we must try to alight their border tensions. I hear that Thrace is allied to Illyria, who are currently at war with Macedon. Maybe we can use this to our advantage?

TinCow

06-27-2006, 23:48

So much talk of war and motions, yet not one of you has put himself forward for the position of Consulship. Have we no one with the backbone to lead us to future glories?

flyd

06-28-2006, 03:07

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius

Senators, Rome has now been at war for 15 years. That is far too long, and if Senators keep insisting that we make new enemies, we may never see peace. We should focus on these two clear objectives:

1. Start no new wars.
2. Finish current wars.

To finish a war is not merely to sign a ceasefire agreement. That is a mere formality, and unlikely to be honored by our enemies. The war with Gaul is finished at this stage, they no longer present a sigificant threat.

The current situation dictates that the Greeks are the next to be targeted. Although the Greeks don't present much of a threat in Italy, I believe we should permanently hold on to Epirus, and the surrounding regions. Specifically, we should remove the Greek presence as far east as Thermon, with a possible raid on Athens. Any further would be impractical and unnecessary. This may also cause the Greek navy to withdraw to the east because of a lack of ports.

While the Greek campaign is in progress, I would upgrade the fleet. There is more than enough money now for the development of a fleet. Indeed, there may be too much money just sitting pointlessly in the treasury. If we can remove the naval Carthaginian threat, then it may not be necessary to invade Africa. If confined to Africa, the Carthaginians pose no threat.

The main issue at this stage is what the Macedonians will think of our campaigns in Greece. I don't believe that they will necessarily be willing to help their allies outright. Indeed, they did offer us an alliance at one point, while we were still at war with the Greeks. I don't believe the Macedon-Greece alliance to be a strong one. However, they may have an issue with what they may see as our encroachment on their sphere of influence. I think there is some potential for a war with Macedon breaking out. However, as unfortunate as that would be, I am not one to be intimidated by them. Although their lands are extensive, we are well within reach of their heartlands. A quick strike on Pella and/or Thessalonica may make them change their mind. Indeed, given our current position, it may be us who intimidate them. I understand that some Senators are worried about Iberia, but I am happy that they decided to attack the Germans. Let them kill each other, why should we get involved in that?

As far as domestic policy is concerned, I do agree with the need for temples. Additional auxilia infrastructure, roads, and naval infrastructure as funds allow.

Mount Suribachi

06-28-2006, 08:28

Senators! Calm down, now. I have sent out scouts to review the situation in Greece and Europe and they shall hopefully report back soon. It is very possible that Thrace and Iberia will go into a war with each other but that would be a foolish move for them to make. Let us think from their perspective: here we have two powerful barbarian peoples, having decimated another, would they go after each other, wasting vast amounts of troops or would they join together and attack us, while our armies are busy fighting a huge war against Macedon and the Greeks? Barbarians might be uneducated but they are humans, and humans are naturally resourceful.

Or they may look at the wasteland that is Gaul - at the crops unharvested, at the buildings blackened, at the temples looted, at the towns deserted - and conlude that the Romans are not some weak-kneed effeminates ripe for conquest, but a strong sharp sword which is to be avoided! If Germania or Iberia were to attack us it would not be because of Barbarian cunning, it would be because of Barbarian stupidity!

As I said before, our borders to the north consist of small, easily defensible passes and crossings. Germania and Iberia will have long, wide open borders. I doubt that either of them will be able to resist attacking the other.

1. Start no new wars.
2. Finish current wars.

A wise policy pater.

Finally I would like to second motion 7.10 and 7.11

econ21

06-28-2006, 09:54

[QUINTUS]: I am pleased to see Legate Tiberius Coruncanius declare his candidacy and to offer such a well thought out manifesto.

I do strongly suspect, however, that Macedon will strike against us as soon as we have a settlement bordering them. The First Consul will then have to combat both Macedon and Greece. This is well within our capabalities, but it is best to be prepared for this contingency.

I would recommend using the Consular Army as the offensive right fist in the campaign and bringing up a Praetorian army as a defensive left fist. Substantial garrisons will also be needed for any unwalled settlements we occupy that border enemy lands. Legio IV at Apollonia is in no fit state to act as our second field army in Epirus and needs substantial reinforcements or replacing by another legion as proposed in motion 7.10. I would recommend Senator Publius Pansa for command of our second field army in Epirus. I believe he is about to qualify as a Legate and I see something of the spirit of brave Pleminius in him.

Finally, I must respectfully disagree with the Legate in regards to motion 7.3, prioritising the building of a Temple in Roma. The capitol should be the centre of our troop recruitment and as such we should work towards building the finest armoury possible. This will require constructing the most advanced forums and Palace. Praise the gods, but pass the ammunition, is what I say!

TinCow

06-28-2006, 12:17

While I believe it is very important that we raise a significant number of new cohorts for campaigning, I do believe that we must try and maintain profitability within the Republic as well. It will do us little good to rush into a period of great expansion if we are once again forced into a period of consolidation in order to restore profitability. As such, I believe that the Consul should balance military expenditures along with continuing infrastructure investments to maintain prosperity.

Motion 7.12: The Consul must not permit seasonal income to dip below 8,000 dinarii for more than two seasons at a time during his Consulship. Furthermore, the Consul must ensure that, at the end of his term, seasonal income is above 10,000 dinarii.

econ21

06-28-2006, 12:38

[QUINTUS]: I assume, First Consul, that by seasonal income you mean the starting balance at each season? Our gross seasonal income is in excess of 39000 dinarii but given our expenses, our starting balance is only around 12000.

This balance is a healthy sum given the size of our lands and forces, and I agree with the First Consul that it would be regrettable to squander this inheritance. Consequently, I second the motion.

However, I would add that it should be taken as a general goal and we should not be too precise in judging whether it is met. I have found the starting balance is hard to predict exactly. My advice to the next First Consul would be simply to restrain expenditures if the starting balance dips below 8000 and gradually work towards increasing the balance to 12000 or more

Mount Suribachi

06-28-2006, 13:21

Finally, I must respectfully disagree with the Legate in regards to motion 7.3, prioritising the building of a Temple in Roma. The capitol should be the centre of our troop recruitment and as such we should work towards building the finest armoury possible. This will require constructing the most advanced forums and Palace. Praise the gods, but pass the ammunition, is what I say! [/i]

Esteemed former consul, I am shocked by this attitude on 2 levels!

Firstly, the lip-service you pay to the Gods that have blessed you and protected you these past 15 years.

Secondly - and I was hoping that no-one would bring this up, so am I saddened it is you Quintus - is that what Rome has become? A barracks?? A training ground for our rank and file?? For a long time, too long perhaps, I have kept quiet on this issue. Our city has a sacred boundary over which no troops may cross, yet here we are turning Roma into a recruiting ground!!

Rome is the captital of the civilized world!! People from every nation should come to Rome and marvel at her majesty, at her greatness! Blacksmiths producing chain mail are not the kind of thing that makes our city talked about all around Our Sea.

Rome should NOT be the centre of our troop recruitment, it should be the glorious centrepiece of our Republic! Awesome temples to honour our great Gods, centres of learning to attract the brightest minds, the commercial hub of the civilized world! All these things Roma should be! We have cities enough with which to recruit, train and equip our soldiers. Capua has long been our centre of troop recruitment, may it ever be so.

econ21

06-28-2006, 13:44

[QUINTUS]: Young Amulius, do not mind me. Bitter experience has made me treat talk of the gods with a scepticism that may shock a man of your good character. It has been my experience that the gods help those who help themselves. All the prayers in the world are to no avail when you have a sarissa in your gut. We are men of the world - we must see to the welfare of our people and especially their protectors, our troops, first and foremost. Leave the priests to fuss and fret over other matters. Priests and temples have their uses to quiet anxious minds, but we should not let them dictate the course of this great republic. (Soothsayers are another matter, of course, and in my experience should always be carefully heeded.) But I see no point debating these matters of faith here - let the Senators vote with their consciences.

On the matter of who we should recruit into are armies, that is a more earthly subject on which we can engage. I have long opposed Senator Publius Laevinius's obsession with enabling auxilia buildings in every settlement. One or two is fine, to provide varied auxiliaries for our armies - the subject Gaulish people have strengths we could use, for example. But we should be able to recruit most of our men from our heartlands. The danger of installing training camps in every settlement, quite apart from the wasteful expense, is that First Consuls may be tempted to recruit from wherever is most convenient rather than from the settlements with the best armouries. Why, even one of my own Legio IV came with such basic equipment that I had to instruct the armourers of Apollonia to upgrade their weapons!

As to whether the source of recruitment be Rome or Capua, the facts are inescapable - the capitol draws brave men to it like moths to a candle. It grows ever larger while Capua and lesser cities struggle to keep up. It is true, we could leave the citizens of our capitol to mill around aimlessly, making money and praying to salve their consciences while adding to the squalor and discontent. But true Romans would not be satisfied with such a life and would expect to labour long and hard in defence of their country. I do not object to the people of Capua or Ancona serving in our legions - even though they are not yet true citizens of Rome. But if it is a choice between a better armed and armoured true Roman and someone else, then I choose the Roman.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-28-2006, 14:28

While I am very impressed by the economic revival we have seen under the strong leadership of Augustus Verginius, I have to disagree with Motion 7.12.
I small reserve of gold in our treasury is wise, but more as 5.000 dinarii would be excessive. Money must be used, not hoarded, if we do not want to stint our economic growth and let our governors get a reputation as lousy city developers. Furthermore, such strict restrictions would be extremely tedious for the the acting consul to keep an eye on or even to actually succeed in, and I for one would not want to be acting consul with this sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

OOC : If we have more as 10.000 dinarii in our treasury and do not build something, governors will start to get bad traits.

Furthmore, seeing the final figures of the reign of Augustus Verginius, seeing the massive losses and destruction he has caused to our enemies, and the vast growth of our economy and our military recruitement pool, I am very pleased to submit the following motion :

Motion 7.13 : This House grants First Consul Augustus Verginius a triumph. This is on account of his great successes on the battlefield with relatively little loss and the effective destruction of the nation of Gaul as a fighting force. It also notes the vast improvements of our economy and our recuitement pool.

Lastly, seeing little enthousiasm for Motion 7.8, I propose the following Motion :

Motion 7.14 - If we are attacked by the Iberians, we will attack and take over the Iberian controlled settlements in Gaul. The acting consul will have full disgression in how to go about this and is allowed to wipe out the Gauls if he deems this necessary.

econ21

06-28-2006, 16:27

[QUINTUS]: I ... (cough, mumble) ... second motion 7.13... (mutter)...(grumble)...

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-28-2006, 16:42

Lucius Aemilius suddenly collapses on the senate floor in a fit of hilarious laughter :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

After a minute or so, he scrambles back onto his seat to the stunned looks of his fellows...

Ahem, excuse me, my lords... :embarassed: ...don't know what came over me there.

econ21

06-28-2006, 18:07

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I declare that Tiberius Coruncanius is elected First Consul unopposed! May the gods favour him!

Mount Suribachi

06-28-2006, 22:46

Congratulations Pater, clearly it is the will of the Gods for you to be Consul!

TinCow

06-28-2006, 23:46

It is with great annoyance that I see that Motion 7.12 was not seconded before voting began. My words have been unfortunately misinterpreted and I believe this may have resulted in the Motion failing to receive a second. For future clarification I would like to state a number of things, since this is not an issue I shall readily abandon.

First, setting a minimum amount of required seasonal income has absolutely no relation on the size of the treasury. Every single last dinarii in the Republic could be spent and the requirements could be met, as 'income' by definition means the amount of new monies coming in and not of old monies accumulated.

Second, a sudden drop in seasonal income below a certain level can easily cripple the Republic and cause long-lasting detriment to all Roman citizens. If we find ourselves in sudden need of more men for the legions, whether through new cohorts or replacements, a lack of income will prevent any long-term recruiting. Furthermore, if we cannot maintain infrastructure development on a constant basis, we will fall behind in the financial balance and further increase the rate of loss. We must be able to maintain our standing military force while at the same time preserving enough of a sum for seasonal investments and enough for any necessary recruitments. If we cannot do all three of these at once, the Republic will stagnate and yet another Consul will be required to devote their term solely to domestic improvements.

Finally, auxilia structures have uses far beyond those of mere recruiting. I would note to the Senate that a majority of the increase in profit that the Republic enjoyed under my term was exclusively due to the fact that many of our provinces have been taught proper Roman methods. The greater the degree of their absorbtion into the Republic, the greater they will contribute to our prosperity. In addition, the better they understand our traditions, the more content they will be with our rule and the greater the level of taxes we will be able to coax from them without causing a revolt.

Senators, I realize that Motion 7.12 is not even up for vote now, but I will most certainly propose a similar motion at the next session. I urge this body to demand financial responsibility from all Consuls. Need I remind you, Conscript Fathers, that Rome wasn't built in a day? How shall we pay for tomorrow's requirements if we bankrupt ourselves today?

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-29-2006, 00:01

Senator Verginius,

I see I misunderstood Motion 7.12.

Based on my economic advisors (ongoing H/VH campaign) I think it will be very hard to make our seasonal income rise to 10.000 dinarii. Our military forces are below nominal at the moment and will have to be increased if we want to fight any kind of decent war in Greece and this will lower our income faster than our economic investments will raise it. I would be suprised if mid-term our balance has not decreased.

I do agree with your sentiments about our economy and will second such a motion if it is phrased in less demanding terms, i.e. 'will strive' instead of 'must not permit' and so on.

Avicenna

06-29-2006, 18:03

Senator Verginius, while I too believe that we should try to increase the resources available to the Republic, I believe that the demands set by motion 7.12 are too high. I agree that our seasonal income should be made to top 10,000 denarii by the end of the term, I think that setting the target of 8000 denarii income at least one season in every two is too demanding, and not possible if we wish to defeat the Greeks, as we will have to replenish our legions.

I say that we should strive to increase our income by the end of this term, but I do not believe that this should force senator Coruncanius to spend money like a miser, limiting the development of our cities, which will hinder us in the long term. We should upgrade our economic facilities in the whole of the republic. While this will be costly for now, it will benefit us greatly in the long term, and perhaps we could even buy the loyalty of the Greeks after they suffer some more humiliating defeats.

Braden

06-30-2006, 10:41

Members of the Senate,

After reviewing the Consuls first report I find it very underhand that Macedonia would attack Illyria. It is obvious that the Greeks and the Macedonians have conspired to finish Illyria whilst also striking at us. It is, as if, they work with one mind.

In one move the Greeks agree a ceasefire with Illyria but then allow their allies the Macedonians to attack them. This is beyond dishonour! And fully justifies any actions our Consul will take against Greece or Macedon.

With regards our failed Diplomatic moves. I feel that the Illyrians time is short and we should approach them once more only but insist on Military Access in return for striking against Macedonia.

I do not believe that Macedonia will stand by whilst we finish the Greeks and war with Macedon is inevitable, we can, perhaps wait a season or two so see what the Macedon armies on our frontier do but I believe they will start a war against us soon.

As to the Germanians, we should continue to approach them. Perhaps continued pressure from the Iberians will make them see sense in allying themselves with a powerful friend such as the Republic.

TinCow

06-30-2006, 12:09

Consul Coruncanius, I would like to propose a new strategy which I believe may be of great benefit to the Republic. First, ignore Thermon, Larissa, Thessalonica, Pella and Scoda. Move a fresh legion into Apollonia to protect it from the enemy. Take Consular I Army south to the Pelleponese. Once there, assault and capture Sparta, Elis, Corinth, Athens and Chalkida. All five of these large and prosperous cities can be protected with but a single force northwest of Athens. We can gut our enemies, fill our coffers, and yet refrain from overextending ourselves. Once those areas are secure, we can continue the assault with a combined movement from Apollonia and Athens.

The enemy will be driven before us and our flanks will be secured. The Apollonian force could protect Antigonea or abandon it to the enemy depending on what seems best. I fear that if we attempt to hold the provinces immediately around Apollonia, we shall sap our strength by requiring many strong city garrisons to protect against Greek and Macedonian counterattacks. Let us sieze the south in one formidable thrust!

Avicenna

06-30-2006, 12:18

A rash but seemingly doable plan, senator Verginius. Once again I applaud you for finding the best path to victory.

However, I doubt that senator Coruncanius will agree to this, seeing his policy of starting no new wars. He shall either have to change this policy or conquer only the Greek territories, leaving the conquered ripe for Macedonian picking, which will no doubt happen if we leave after the captures to continue the war.

Senators, personally I feel that war with the Macedonians is unavoidable, as they are firm alllies with the Greeks and have shown their lack of honour by this attack of the Illyrians.

We have no choice, we must subdue them!

Mount Suribachi

06-30-2006, 13:20

I fear that war with Macedon is only a matter of time. If they are so foolish as to attack us, the policy suggested by former Consul Verginius is a sound one in my opinion.

Oh, and may I congratulate our navy on their first victory on the seas! May it be the first of many!

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-30-2006, 13:32

I some of you warmongering senators had taken the trouble to second my motion Motion 7.9, the acting consul Coruncanius would be obliged to go on the attack against the kingdom of Macedon. As it is, he can do as he sees fit.

Of course I am still in favour of immediate offensive action against the kingdom of Macedon with all the forces at our disposal.

I am very pleased to see our first naval victory ! My congratulations to our acting consul Coruncanius !

x-dANGEr

06-30-2006, 20:09

"Senators, you put a legion under my command, so have faith in me and let me act!"

GeneralHankerchief

07-02-2006, 22:25

Ignoramus

07-03-2006, 11:08

I find this a serious oversight. Why, if this is not suppressed soon, it shall become a general uprising!

I suggest we befriend and ally ourselves with the brave Illyrians, not matter how high the cost. The despicable Macedonians have violated our territory without justification. I strongly urge that we liberate the Illyrians homeland as a second front against the perfidious Macedonians!

TinCow

07-03-2006, 12:15

Egads! We go off busy fighting Greeks and Gauls, and it turns out Arminium is under threat? From brigands?! This shows foolishness on all of our parts, Senators.

Rest assured I will have a few motions related to this situation come the midterm session...

I am in full agreement, Senator. Though Italy may seem secure from foreign attacks it is still vulnerable to brigands and other foul creatures. We should maintain a permanent force in Italy to deal with them.

Ignoramus

07-03-2006, 12:28

Conquered though they may be, you must remember, fellow Senators, that only fifteen years ago, these Greeks were whole heartily supporting Pyrrhrus in his invasion. As such, we cannot depend upon their loyalty. Senator Verginus has made an excellent suggestion, and one which I whole heartily support.

TinCow

07-03-2006, 23:08

I do not believe that we necessarily need use good Roman citizens to deal with these 'rebels.' Our Legions are best used to fight the enemies of Rome, not to put down vandals and brigands. I say let our Italian allies prove their loyalty by allocating their auxilia to the task, under the oversight of a Senator, of course. Fielding such a group will cost the Republic less and will keep the Legions free to pursue war with our enemies. In addition, I do not believe this would be inconsistent with the proper composition of our armies, since it would not be an army as such. Its job would not be to fight wars, but simply to dispose of these upstarts. As a city garrison exists to keep order in a settlement, this force would exist to keep order in the countryside.

econ21

07-04-2006, 08:04

[SENATE SPEAKER]: As we have now received the mid-term report of the First Consul, I declare the interim session of Senate open for the proposing of motions. The deadline for motions is Thursday 6pm UK time, after which there will be a 24 hour period of voting.

Avicenna

07-04-2006, 08:09

On behalf of senator Verginius, I would like to propose motion 8.01: A legion-sized army entirely composed of Italian auxilia will be created and stationed in the centre of Italia, to deal with rebels and brigands in the countryside.

flyd

07-04-2006, 08:28

I would like to propose two motions:

Motion 8.2: Whereas the Illyrians are allies of our enemies, the Gauls, Motion 7.5 (alliance with Illyria) is to be stricken, and this house does not authorize an alliance with Illyria.

Motion 8.3: This house authorizes attacks against the navy of Ptolemy, and raids on, or conquest of, their colonies, which include Cyprus, Rhodes, Lesbos, and coastal posessions in Asia and Thrace, for the purpose of gaining naval superiority in the eastern Mediterranean and establishing trade networks therein. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on Ptolemy.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-04-2006, 10:41

Acting consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

I am pleased with your excellent progress and great success on the battlefield, and with the construction of temples to the glorious Gods. However, I wonder what drives you to propose war on the Ptolemaic empire without the slightest provocation ? Could it be that the power at your command is already rising to your head ? I vehemently oppose Motion 8.3. If you feel adventurous, I suggest you send an expedition to Crete and Southern Greece and wipe out the Greek confederacy once and for all instead. I also oppose Motion 8.2.
I will second Motion 8.1.

As I feared the Iberians are becoming ever more powerful while we sit behind the river of Massilia and watch their power grow. I despair, my lords, of your blindness to this danger. Instead of declaring war on an extremely distant nation we have no quarrel with, we should stop the growth of Iberian power before they annihalate the Germans and the Gauls and turn their attention to us. While Germans and the Gauls are no friends of mine, it is best is they are equally weak and at each others throat. Accordingly, I will propose Motion 8.4 :

Motion 8.4 : We will attack and take over the Iberian controlled settlements in Gaul. The acting consul will have full disgression in how to go about this and is allowed to wipe out the Gauls if he deems this necessary. I volunteer myself, Lucius Aemilius, and the Legio Italia Victrix for this campaign. This Motion authorizes a declaration of war on Iberia. We are still at war with Gaul.

I will also once again propose this motion :

Motion 8.5 : This House grants First Consul Augustus Verginius a triumph. This is on account of his great successes on the battlefield with relatively little loss and the effective destruction of the nation of Gaul as a fighting force. It also notes the vast improvements of our economy and our recuitement pool.

Avicenna

07-04-2006, 11:16

Senator Aemilius, we think similarly, but I do not think that we should take the Gallic provinces of the Iberians. These areas are difficult to defend, bordering the Germanic tribes and the land of the Thracians. Furthermore, they are essentially a waste of men, seeing the destruction wreaked upon Gaul by former consul Senator Verginius. To effectively and decisively cripple the Iberian threat, I think that we should strike the heartlands of Iberian herself.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-04-2006, 15:52

To effectively and decisively cripple the Iberian threat, I think that we should strike the heartlands of Iberian herself.

If you propose a Motion to that effect, I will second it.

Avicenna

07-04-2006, 16:14

Very well.

My proposals:

Motion #8.06: A new Legion, Legio VI, shall be raised and deployed to Iberian immediately if Motion 8.07 is passed. Otherwise, it shall be deployed in Achaea, again immediately after it is raised, to reinforce the lands taken from the Greeks (and Macedonians, should we go to war with them).

Motion #8.07: The growing threat of the Iberian peoples will be halted, by a military strike into the heartlands of Iberia, and the deployment of at least two Legions at full strength with the intention of the annexation of the entire Iberian peninsula. This will take place immediately after the raising of Legio VI, should Motion 8.06 be passed. NOTE: this motion authorises war on the Iberians, and will most likely result in the withdrawal of one Legion to reinforce any free Legions that will be deployed in Iberia.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-04-2006, 16:27

Senator Decivs Laevinivs,

I will second Motion 8.6 and Motion 8.7, but I do expect you to back my Motion 8.4 in return for this favour.

Senate Speaker, Motion 8.4 of course also authorises war on the Iberians, and I will change it myself right now.

Avicenna

07-04-2006, 16:34

Perhpas, senator Aemilius, if you reword it slightly? We currently do not have enough troops to hold Epirus, Sicily and Italia while sending troops simeltaneously into Iberia and Gaul, at least not enough to ensure success. Perhaps you could state that this would take place after the annexation of Iberia?

TinCow

07-04-2006, 16:35

Senators, it gives me great pleasure to express my hearty approval for the manner in which Consul Coruncanius has conducted his term thus far. Though there was no legislation requiring it, he has maintained the policy of heavy infrastructure investment that I began. While he oversees our campaigns against the Greeks, we continue to grow strong and profitable at home. Furthermore, though our income has dropped as expected due to the requirements of the current war, it is with pleasure that I note that our seasonal income is still nearly 10,000 dinarii. Consul Coruncanius is not stripping the wealth of Rome for this war, he is building our power with wise and intelligent decisions.

Yet, I would like to see such a continued level of domestic concern become a permanent fixture of every Consul. Though I do not doubt the intentions or abilities of Consul Coruncanius, I have less faith in the men who will follow him, simply because I know not who they are. It is towards these future Consuls that I would like to propose the following Constitutional Amendment:

Motion 8.8: Seasonal income must be above 10,000 dinarii at the end of every Consulship. This Motion does not effect spending or income levels during the term of any Consulship. Exceptions to this Motion can be temporarily made by Senatorial legislation. (Note: This is a Constitutional Amendment)

For all of this, it is with great concern that I note foreign developments. For every enemy we slay, it seems that two rise in his place. Before I go on, I would like to direct the Senate's attention to the current World Overview Map, which I have brought with me from the Library for convenience.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/263_map.jpg

Beyond the developments in the Balkans, there are two major developments that concern us. First, the Iberians have engulfed much of the Germanic territories and they march on, nearly unopposed. It shall not be long before they control all of Germania. Second, Carthage has taken Capsa and broken the back of the Numidian king. Soon, they will spread over all of Afrika and their power will grow significantly.

Senators, we ignore these threats at our peril! I saw the danger of Iberia and proposed dealing with it immediately only 5 years ago! If we had marched then, we would not be in this precarious situation! It makes me glad to see that Senator Lucius Aemilius has realized the error of his ways five years ago and now recognizes the true threat that the Iberians pose to us. I fully agree with him that we cannot wait any longer. We must strike the Iberians before their power grows even further. Yet, I agree with Senator Decius Laevinus that the Gallic provinces are useless to us.

As I stated five years ago, the Iberian coastal provinces, many of them former Punic settlements, are wealthy from trade and centers of military production. If we were to take these provinces, we would strike a great blow to the power of Iberia and strengthen ourselves immeasurably. While Motion 8.7 is aimed at the same ends, I believe it to be too strict in determining the manner of this strike and it's immediate aims are too broad. Thus, I propose the following motion.

Motion 8.9: An expedition must be made to capture some of the Iberian northeastern and coastal settlements. The manner and method by which this expedition is to be made (i.e. naval or land route, which armies to send) will be left up the Consul. The objective will be to capture and hold at least two of the following settlements: Narbo, Emporaie, Osca, Numantia, Arse, Carthago Nova, Gades. This motion requires a declaration of war against Iberia.

For this expedition, I certainly believe that Senator Lucius Aemilius would be an appropriate commander. At the same time, I would far prefer to be fighting the enemies of all civilized men than to continue in my duties against the Greeks. My Tribune, Amulius Corncanius, is an incredibly capable man and I firmly believe that he would be able to lead Consular I Army as well as I could. If such an expedition is to be made and two commanders are needed for it, I would like to request that I be transferred west. At minimum, I would prefer to take up the Massilia crossing in Senator Lucius Aemilius' absense. I consider it a sacred duty to protect civilization from barbaric animals, wherever they may be.

In closing, I urge the Senate to think of the future. Iberia must be stopped before they grow stronger. We must strike them and we must strike them now.

I would also like to second Motion 8.1, Motion 8.2, and Motion 8.6.

Avicenna

07-04-2006, 16:45

I would like to second both Motions #8.08 and 8.09.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-05-2006, 00:35

I am greatly pleased by the confidence of Augustus Verginius, and would not mind it in the least if he joined me in the effort to curb the power of Iberia. Taking in mind the current debate I have decided to rephrase my Motion 8.4 in the hope that it will attract more support.

Rephrased Motion 8.4 : We will attack and take over the cities and towns of the southern coastline of Gaul, some of which belong to Gaul and some of which belong to Iberia, to provide a landroute toward Spain, as our navy is occupied in the Adriatic Sea. I volunteer myself, Lucius Aemilius, and the Legio Italia Victrix for this campaign. This Motion authorizes a declaration of war on Iberia. We are still at war with Gaul.

Should our expedition strike as far as Iberia itself I will definitely need another commander to back me up. It would be impossible for one legion to hold onto all those unwalled towns otherwise. I am quite willing to lead the assault at once with my current forces and will make do with mercenaries and any reinforcements the acting consul is inclined to send. All I ask is a regular supply of garrison troops, to guard our new territory.

Finally, senators, I hope you take a good look at the map Augustus Verginius has kindly provided, and especially the large brown stain growing larger and getting closer to our borders each season. If you see the threat as much as I do I recommend you second some of the proposed motions.

Further, I will second Motion 8.8, even tough I still balk at the word 'must'. I will also second Motion 8.9.

flyd

07-05-2006, 00:50

Senator Aemilius, it's interesting that you accuse me of propsing war on Ptolemy with no provocation, and yet, you propose the same thing against Iberia, who has also not provoked us. Further, your plan to attack the Iberians in Gaul just so happens to be such that your current command would likely get an important role in the attack as they are already deployed in Gaul. You even volunteer yourself for it outright. I wonder if you are less concerned with what's good for Rome than with what's good for yourself.

Senator Verginius wants to kill more barbarians, so his stance is predictable.

The proponents of a war on Iberia will have you believe that if they were to conquer Germany, they would suddenly become unstoppable. What's there in Germany? Germans? Trees? Iberia is of no danger to us. They can't challenge us, and will not be able to, unless they were to suddenly become civilized, although that seems unlikely.

My main issue with the plan to invade Iberia or Gaul is that we would get into another major war. You cannot practice limited warfare if you land in Iberia or attack Gaul. The barbarians will keep coming at you until you kill them all. And then they'd make babies, grow them, give them weapons and send them at you again. This war could not be finished without conquering all of Gaul and Iberia. Are you prepared to commit to that? I certainly am not, especially since I don't consider those places to be of great strategic value.

The east is different. I certainly do not seek a protracted war with Ptolemy, but he does hold some strategically and economically important positions, as do the Greeks. The war in the east would primarily be naval and could be limited in scope, and would give us the chance to capture much more valuable places than empty fields, mountains, and forests in the west. Need I also remind you that Ptolemy was at war with the Greeks and is at war with Macedon? He may have ambitions of westward expnasion, and he is a much more dangerous enemy than a group of barbarians.

As a result, I will only second Motion 8.5 of the Motions so far presented.

GeneralHankerchief

07-05-2006, 01:12

Let the Iberians come. If they are smart they will realize the futility of trying to invade when we have all of the chokepoints into Italia defended. Let's finish what we start first.

Motion 8.10: A new Legion is to be constructed with the purpose of reinforcing Augustus Verginius' force in Greece. That Legion will take the spot of the Consular Army, which is to conquer Athens and the Peloponessius.

Motion 8.11: By the end of the next Consul's interim period, all cities in Italia are to have walls.

Also, I second Motion 8.1.

Ignoramus

07-05-2006, 01:17

Senator Classicianus, Motion 8.11 cannot be fulfilled. Walls can only be constructed in certain cities.

I would like to propose Motion 8.12.

Motion 8.12: That we give our Greek territories to the Illyrians, and use our Greek forces for the subjection of Iberia.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-05-2006, 01:56

Acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

We seem to misunderstand each other. I have only to listen to the reports of my men when they return from patrolling the other side of the river Massilia, as I have these last few years, and to see the worry in their eyes, to come to the conclusion that the Iberians have become a major threat.
As long as the barbarians have fought amongst themselves they could be safely ignored, but when Iberia has defeated all its rivals they will be sure to come looking for us. Their numbers will be huge considering they will hold the territory of the Iberia, Gaul, Germania and the Cartheginian colonies in Spain. It is solely out of recognition of this danger that I seek to kill this monster in its infancy, before it has grown fangs.

My concern is only the good of the state. I recommend myself and my legion because I am well-known as a Good Commander, Great Vanquisher, Good Defender, Reconnaissance Specialist and skilled Pillager, in addition to being in command of a skilled team of ancilliaries, including a barbarian turncoat. My legion consists of experienced troops, including even a veteran centurion. They are well versed in fighting the barbarians and they are anxious for combat after their border guard duty for so many years. Lastly, I and my men are in the perfect position to take on this mission. The perfect man for this job would of course be Augustus Verginius, whose name strikes terror in the hearts of all barbarians, but he is fighting in Greece at the moment. In all humility, that leaves myself as the second best choice.

We have yet only heard reports on the Ptolemaic empire, and except for our bold diplomats, no Roman has ever even seen one of its soldiers. Your proposal of an attack on them, a complete unknown to our culture, sounds to me as strange as suggesting a march to conquer India. Worse even, you say they are the enemies of our enemies, the Greeks and the, unless I am totally mistaken, soon-to-be-our enemies Macedonians. And you want to attack them ~:confused: ? I really fail to see the logic chain in your reasoning. If anything, I would suggest allying ourselves with them. So I totally fail to make the comparison between the Ptolemaic empire and Iberia. All this actually makes me wonder if you are less concerned with what's good for Rome than with what's good for yourself.

I will accordingly propose the following motion :

Motion 8.13 : As we share the same enemies, let us attempt to ally ourselves with the Ptolemaic Empire.

I will also second Motion 8.12.

Lastly, I would kindly inform senator Quintus Classicianus that his Motion 8.11 is ill-phrased as all cities in Italy that can have walls, already have those. Perhaps it would be wise to rephrase it to 'all cities in Italy that can have walls to have stone walls' or something of like that.

flyd

07-05-2006, 02:41

Senator Aemilius,

You fail to convince me that Iberia is a threat. Again you simply expect us to believe that just because the Iberians are about to capture Germany (and we don't know that they will do that), that they will suddenly become a threat. That they will somehow improve their ability to fight a war. No barbarian can stand up to the might of Rome, regardless of how many barbarian lands they hold.

Do not accuse me of being concerned mainly with self-interest unless you are willing to cite things that show that. What personal profit would I have from a war with Ptolemy? You, on the other hand, are pushing an agenda that would gain you the most glory, and are actively nominating yourself for the position most likely to achieve that. You spend no less than one third of your argument trying to convince us of how great you are. Humility is one thing your argument sorely lacks.

As for Ptolemy, I pointed out that he attacked Macedon to show that it's possible that he is considering westward expansion. That's not particularly important, as my main reason for wanting war with him is because we could conduct a limited and useful war. You say that we know nothing of his armies, but I disagree. History of Alexander and his successors is very well documented. I say we know less about the Iberians. You say you want to ally with Ptolemy because he is the enemy of our enemy, but why do you not apply such a standard consistently? The Illyrians are allies of our enemy, the Gauls, and yet you still wish to ally with them. Why are you so fond of the Illyrians, Senator?

And finally, Motion 8.12 is utter maddness. The Illyrians will have no way of garrisoning any settlements in Greece that we may give them. The Macedonians will easily be able to capture these.

GeneralHankerchief

07-05-2006, 04:04

Whoops! Being stationed away from Italia for the past several years I did not recall that it was impossible to wall some cities. Since the reason Motion 8.11 was proposed was to delay a rebel attack long enough for a legion to arrive, it is thus rendered useless and withdrawn.

As previously stated, Motion 8.12 does nothing for us and actually helps our enemies.

And finally, Motion 8.13 is seconded.

TinCow

07-05-2006, 04:33

Given that the rephrased Motion 8.4 provides for further actions against the Gauls, the oldest and most vile enemies of Rome, I cannot in good conscience withhold my support from it. Though years pass and times change, Senators, we should never forget nor forgive the horrors inflicted upon us by these savages. I dream that I shall live to see the day when a Roman sword takes the life of the last Gallic babe, forever ending the line of this most evil of species. I second Motion 8.4.

Avicenna

07-05-2006, 06:59

I second motions #8.04 and #8.13.

Attacking the Ptolemaics is utter madness, and will do us no good. Their lands are far away from ours, and what shall we do when the Carthaginians choose to launch a naval assault? Hope that the Gods will magically send our fleets back to Italian waters in an instant? The war will do us no benefit, as the rich Ptolemaics are potential allies against the Greeks, yet you choose to send soldiers towards their lands in a futile attempt of conquest, which will surely end in disaster and slaughter. Do you not know how strong they are? These are the only men who can claim that the Selucids fear them. You claim that the Illyrians cannot garrison Epirus, but yet believe that we can garrison Aegyptus? This is folly.

Iberia, on the other hand, is a direct threat, and barbaric domination is unacceptable. Rome should not sit idly by, waiting until their unwashed hordes are at our doorstep. No, we must strike now, as they are preoccupied with the Northern Germanic tribes. I agree that any Roman is worth ten barbarians, but how many Romans do we have defending Massilia? Two hundred? Three hundred? Your proposal of inaction is lunacy, and I utterly condemn it.

flyd

07-05-2006, 07:57

Senator Decius Laevinus, I suggest you take a short trip down the street to our local academy/scriptorium and learn to read. Then you should read the text of Motion 8.3, and when you do you will find that it merely authorizes attacks "against the navy of Ptolemy, and raids on, or conquest of, their colonies, which include Cyprus, Rhodes, Lesbos, and coastal posessions in Asia and Thrace", and does not mention Egypt. You will also find in my other comments that I never expressed intention of invading Egypt, and you will also find that that would go against my concept of limited warfare.

Further, as much as you and others try to exaggerate the ability of the Iberians, and their threat, I remain unafraid of them.

Avicenna

07-05-2006, 08:11

Cyprus is well within striking distance of major Ptolemaic cities, and will be unholdable, while the taking the Ptolemaics' land in Asia Minor is sheer stupidity, and will force us to leave garrisons to deter the Selucids from attacking them.

The Iberian threat is no exaggeration. They own most of Gaul and the whole of Iberia, and the population to draw troops from, therefore, is almost double of ours. They can leave the Germans if they wish, and concentrate all their troops against our single Legion at the Massilia crossing, while many of our troops will have to stay in Epirus and Sicily for defense against other powers. You do not know the dangers, obviously, as you have not the experience of Senator Aemilius, who has guarded the passage against many a barbarian. The Iberians are much fiercer than the Gauls, and I warn you not to underestimate them. Unlike you, I have studied in the world's finest academy, in Rome herself, for many years, and I have heard countless tales of the ferocity and cruelty of the Iberians. If we do not stop them before they dominate the whole of Gaul and Germania, it may be too late to stop their inevitable attack of Italia.

econ21

07-05-2006, 09:08

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, the state of the motions proposed in the first 24 hours of this session has now been summarised by the scribes:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1171910&postcount=1

It will be updated after another 24 hours.

TinCow

07-05-2006, 12:09

Though it has not been the subject of debate thusfar, I wish to speak a bit concerning Motion 8.8. For those who fear that the language of this Motion is too strict and demanding, I specifically refer you to the built-in clause that allows for a temporary Senatorial override by a simple majority. If a prospective or current Consul believes that he has a legitimate reason for not meeting the standards of Motion 8.8, he may certainly propose to lower the limit for the duration of his term or even do away with limits altogether. The Senate may confirm or reject this at its discretion, but the important thing is that the Motion requires that the Senate be consulted before this can happen.

Motion 8.8 does not set exceptionally high standards on any Consul. What it does is require a Consul to put his case before the Senate and explain why he must deplete the economy before he may do so. I believe this is certainly in the best interests of the Republic. Since this Motion requires a two-thirds majority to pass, I would like to hear the opinions of any who oppose it. I wish to address concerns and complaints, whatever they may be, so that this most important of long-term legislation may be allowed to pass.

Silver Rusher

07-05-2006, 17:14

Senators, I have warned you about the threat of Iberia. I warned you! Now that many Senators are starting to realise this, I would like to continue with my campaign to have Iberia defeated. Before I do so, I second motions 8.6, 8.7 and 8.12.

Tiberius Coruncanius, I commend your rulership thus far, you having been doing a very good job. But it must be said, Ptolemy presents no threat to us at the moment, and will not for a long period of time. They will indefinitely be crushed by their potential Seleucid and Greek enemies, we need not worry at all about them! Meanwhile, you are still ignoring the constant threat of Iberia! Surely you greatly underestimate these people, for their culture is barbarian but their armies are far superior to those of any other celtic barbarians, for the Carthaginians themselves used these people in their own armies when it was colonised by them. The Scutarii are a force to be reckoned with, demonstrating military tactics and organisation almost as good as our own!

I urge all Senators to vote for motions 8.6, 8.7 and 8.12, plus any other sensible motions that order an attack on Iberia.

econ21

07-05-2006, 17:44

[QUINTUS]: I cannot help feel that, with all the talk of attacking Iberia or Ptolmey, that we are ignoring the elephant sitting in the living room. Said pachyderm being Macedon, of course. Their armies have been shadowing ours for the last couple of years and now that we have several settlements bordering their lands, I think it highly likely that war will break out before the First Consul leaves his post.

Now, such a war need not preclude an Iberian or Ptolmeic adventure, but it will be a serious matter. How does the Senate wish such a war to be prosecuted? For my part, I believe that if such a war breaks out, the First Consul should drive aggressively into the enemy lands. Our position is too tenuous and the Macedonians too strong for it to be wise to merely hold defensively if they attack. However, there is a danger that if we initially target Macedon's settlements we widen still further the number of border settlements that we must defend.

For this reason, I wonder if revisiting Augustus Verginius's earlier proposal to take the south of Greece first would be sensible in the event of war with Macedon? Whereas before Verginius started from the premise of just holding Apollonia, we are now obliged to defend all our Epirote conquests. Nonetheless, a sea-borne landing near Sparta - for example - and subsequent push northwards through Greece and then into Macedon would seem to minimise the extent of the new borders we must defend. Alternatively, we could simply drive south by land from Thermon towards Sparta and then return northeast.

If the operation were to involve a naval landing, it would require ships and for this reason, I am reluctant to countenance a sea-borne expedition against Iberia or Egypt. Furthermore, with the likelihood of war with Macedon, I cannot support the idea of land-based adventure against Iberia. Abandoning the ford at Massila, overruning our Gaulish "buffer" settlements and picking a fight with Iberia for the Gaulish settlements that Verginius looted would seem to be folly of the first order. It would be much wiser to let the Iberians expend their resources rebuilding the Gaulish settlements and bleeding themselves against the Germans. If desired, we would be free to strike against the Iberians when the war with Greece and, likely, Macedon, is resolved.

Avicenna

07-05-2006, 18:05

I do not completely agree with an attack on Macedon, Senator Quintus, but assuming that an attack will be passed, will you please consider these points?

Taking the Peloponnesus would open up too many borders with the Macedonians, would it not? It would require relieving one Legion, at the least, of Epirus' defence, to take the Peloponnese from the finest Greeks, the Spartans, and the fit Hellenes of Olympia. A simpler alternative for attack would be a push forwards, into the heartlands of the Macedonian Empire, Larissa, Pella, Phillipi and Thessalonika. This will cut off the Northern section of their Empire from the Southern, and take away their core economic territories, as well as shaming them by taking their capital. Furthermore, we would not open up more borders with the Macedonians. Quite the contrary. We would be left only bordering two Macedonian territories, which will be unsupported by the Greeks. Then, we will be able to construct a series of defensive forts in the North, and finally focus on the swift annexation of the Peloponnesus.

If the First Consul is confident in his ability to execute this plan quickly and with minimal losses, it may be possible to eliminate the Hellenic military presence in the regions of Macedonia and Achaea, as well as starting the expedition in Iberia, within two consular reigns.

Mount Suribachi

07-05-2006, 19:06

Senators, senators, what is this madness? What is this talk of pre-emptive wars against Iberia? How many times must I remind you, my bloodthirsty brothers, that this is not the Roman way!!

As has been repeatedly proven, the crossing at Massila is an easily defendable chokepoint. Some of you worry-warts would have us believe that the Iberians would overwhelm our Legion there by sheer force of numbers - conscipt fathers, I doubt that the trouser-wearers have such strategic subtlety. Much more likely is that they will send an army of between 1000 and 1500 men, confident in their strength and numbers. *over-confindent* in their strength and numbers. Slaying Gauls and Germans is one thing, but they have yet to face a Roman legion in battle. And when they do they will meet the same fate as every other barbarian army!

And when we have slaughtered that first 1000 in the fords of Massila, they will send another 1000, then another 1000, then another 1000. And we will slaughter every one of them. If they decide to attack us that is.

If, if, if, if. IFF!!!!!!!!!

It is all one big IF conscript fathers. They are currenly engaged in a war with Germania. IF they win that, they are much more likely to go to war against Thrace than us. Thrace has long, undefended borders, whilst we have short, well defended borders.

A pre-emptive war on Iberia, whilst we are still at war with Greece, Carthage and, to a lesser extent, Gaul, is madness! If there is any nation that is a threat to us then it is Macedon! Not that I propose war with them, unless they seek it first. My father promised that as Consul he would work towards finishing our wars - Gaul is no longer a threat, Greece is on her knees, only Carthage remains to be subdued. Let is finish these wars before we go seeking more.

Former Consul Augustus Verginius, I thank you for your vote of confidence in my ability to lead Consular I army, I am sorry that I still cannot support your proposals for war with Iberia - it only seems like last week that we were sat in your tent whilst on campaign in Gaul discussing this issue.

Furthermore, I feel that your proposals to place strict limits on the Republics economy would tie the hands of any future Consul to make the decisions he needs to run Rome as he was elected to do.

I also commend former Consul Quintus, who speaks with the wisdom of his years :rtwbow: Also, his strategy for war with Macedon would be worth consideration if they attack us.

Finally I would like to second motion 8.10

Avicenna

07-05-2006, 19:20

A good point about the easily defendable borders, Senator Coruncanius. However, I must say that the Iberian peninsula has mountain ranges over it's small land that bridges between Iberian and Gaul, making it almost impentrable to assault by land. However, the African territories of the Carthaginians will create a massive border with the Numidians and the Ptolemaics, and will almost certainly result in more wars, hence the objective of not starting any wars will not be fulfilled.

Also, is inaction your plan against the Iberians? Waiting until they have absolute hegemony over Gaul, Thrace, Germania and Iberia? Then we strike them, when they are the regional superpower? I fail to see the reasoning in this.

Silver Rusher

07-05-2006, 19:48

Avicenna

07-05-2006, 20:04

Senator Laevinius proposes Motion #8.14: If the senate approves of a war with the Macedonians and a war with the Iberians, priority will be given to the Iberian war, meaning that should we need more reinforcements than we can train, those will go to support the Iberian war.

Silver Rusher

07-05-2006, 20:11

I second motion 8.14.

econ21

07-06-2006, 10:31

SENATE SPEAKER: The deadline for the submission and seconding of motions expires at 6pm today (Thursday); there will then follow a 24 hour period of voting.

The scribes have updated the list of motions to reflect changes in the last 24 hours.

TinCow

07-06-2006, 11:59

With the limit for motions closing quickly, I note that Motion 8.1 has not received the required number of seconds. I urge my fellow Senators to support this act. We all agree that Italy must be kept free of brigands. At the same time, we know our Legions are needed elsewhere to fight the Republic's wars. Retaining a full Legion at home to keep the Italian provinces free of rebellious provincials would be unnecessarily expensive and would deny reinforcements where they are needed most. Conscript Fathers, let the Latins prove their loyalty by taking full responsibility for the maintanance of order in the countryside. Their services will be cheaper than that of a Legion and will allow Roman arms to be concentrated against our foreign enemies.

I will also second Motions 8.10 and 8.14. I am not fully convinced by either of these measures, but I certainly wish to have them fully considered by a vote.

Braden

07-06-2006, 12:28

I have journeyed back just in time for this voting session. Now, I will second motion #8.01, our internal security is an issue that bares serious measures.

As to the potential voting. I will NOT support any actions against the Ptolmeics NORE the Iberians.

I will continue to support our struggle in Greece and including any actions we may take against the Macedonians.

I will support action now against Carthages growing threat.

Unfortunately I have had little time to consider proposing any new Motions this session but will vote on those proposed by others.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-06-2006, 16:29

I will second Motion 8.10 and Motion 8.14

Time has almost run out for the following motions :

Motion 8.1 - 1 seconder needed
Motion 8.3 - 2 seconders needed
Motion 8.7 - 1 seconder needed
Motion 8.12 - 1 seconder needed

If no senator seconds these motions, they will not be included in the voting. I urge all senators to second one of these motions if they have forgotten to.

Avicenna

07-06-2006, 16:34

Motion 8.01 has two seconders, Verginius and Curtius.

Mount Suribachi

07-06-2006, 17:55

Why must I repeat myself, Senator Coruncanius?

The armies of the Iberians are NOT the same as those of other barbarians, no, where the others send trouser-wearing, unarmoured fools to their deaths, the Iberians send the Scutarii, a highly trained, sophisticated, organised body of skirmisher/shock troops similar to those of our own legions. Under-estimating the armies of Iberia is very foolish. Remember the influence the Poeni have had on their forces.

I strongly agree with the points made by Senator Laevinius. Even if we were to conquer Macedon, it would be a long and bloody war in which we lose many true Roman men. Only then would we be threatened by the Ptolemaics. Not only that, but I predict that if Iberia and Thrace went to war, Iberia would anhilate them. Giving us extra Iberian borders, and these would not be so easy to defend.

By the time Iberia defeats Thrace (if they go to war this is what will happen, if they do not go to war then Iberia will almost certainly attack us) we will have a great superpower on our hands who has already conquered most of the European peninsular. Then, I ask to all those who shrug off this threat, what will you do?

Tell me, are they as strong as Greek armoured hoplites? A Spartan Phalanx?

All have fallen before our legions. The Roman soldier is superior to any soldier anywhere in the world. You talk of them being influenced and trained by the Carthaginians as if that were meant to frighten us! Massive, well equipped armies of Carthage have repeatedly been bested by our legions.

As someone who has done my fair share of fighting for the Republic, let me tell you, I fear no enemy!

Iberia? Pah! Let them come!

If - *IF* - they come.

And then you contradict yourself. You say we should not fight the Macedonians because they are ohhhh so strong and powerful that such a war would be long and bloody. Then, you tell us that we must attack Iberia because they are even stronger and more powerful! By your own logic such a war would be even longer and bloodier. Furthermore it would cause us to abandon our extrememly strong position in Cisalpine Gaul for a bunch of under-developed, disloyal, hard to defend lands.

Finally your assumption that Iberia would certainly defeat Thrace is just that, an assumption. And so what if they do. Just a bit more worthless land for them. Let the stinking barbarians keep it I say.

econ21

07-06-2006, 18:09

SENATE SPEAKER: The deadline for motions has now passed. The scribes will arrange a vote shortly.

TinCow

07-06-2006, 22:39

I would like to encourage those who have yet to cast their votes to carefully consider their decisions regarding Motions 8.6 and 8.10. Please note that if both motions pass, the Consul will be required to recruit two new Legions in order to fulfill this legislation. If you wish to limit the recruitment to only one new Legion, I urge you to choose between the two and vote yes on one and no on the other. Otherwise our military expenditures may increase purely through semantics rather than the true desire of the Republic.

Ignoramus

07-06-2006, 22:55

Motion 8.12 does have two seconders!

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-06-2006, 23:16

Motion 8.12 does have two seconders!

You will find it, along with 8.7 in the thread :

Senate motions, Autumn 263 - additional motions

TinCow

07-07-2006, 20:14

Given that Motions 8.6 and 8.10 have both passed, I would like to point out to Consul Coruncanius that the combined language of the two allows for some flexibility. Certainly these motions can be used to raise two new Legions for service in Greece. However, if the Consul believes that the Republic cannot or need not raise two more, I believe that it would be entirely possible to read them in conjunction with one another. This would be such that both motions could refer to the same Legion, thus requiring only the raising of a single Legion rather than two entirely new ones. This would be, of course, at the Consul's personal discretion.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-07-2006, 20:42

Senators,

I am glad to be the first to congratulate Augustus Verginius with his well-deserved triumph.

It is with extreme disappointment that I find that the senate has decided to ignore the growing Iberian threat completely. We will sit safely behind our walls while their fundaments rot away. Lords, I, ... , words fail me to express the depth of my feelings in this matter.

Very well...

I feel the senate has lost its fate in me and hereby offer my resignation as commander of the Legio I Italia Victrix to the acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius. I am willing to take up a governership instead. I offer my chirurgeon, barbarian turncoat and the Roman Legion I banner to the next commander of this legion. The tribune Gnaeus Hordeonius seems to be the best candidate.
If the acting consul agrees to my offer of resignation I offer the rest of my entourage up for trade.

Avicenna

07-07-2006, 20:52

Silver Rusher

07-07-2006, 20:59

This is an outrage and an insult to all of Rome.

Have we grown so arrogant and greedy as to not care about Rome's security? The barbarians are literally at our doorstep, yet you choose to plunder and pillage Greek lands for riches, while they pose no threat to us. I assure you, senators, Iberia will fill your pockets with riches in time, so you need not worry about that. Roman infrastructure and technology assures that.

However, the Iberians are ending their war with the Germanians, and so will be able to turn their attention to us, and send their barbaric hordes to our homeland. I know not about you, but I care not about riches. I had done so in my youth, but I quickly grew bored of it, as you will too no doubt do so. Our ensured influence and hegemony in the region is far more important than how many rare amphoras you possess, my greedy friends.

I hope it is not too late to defeat the Iberians...
Well said, Senator. It would seem many of these Senators are greedy to the point of abandoning Rome's security.

Tell me, are they as strong as Greek armoured hoplites? A Spartan Phalanx?
Our modern tactical technology is beginning to outclass that of the Greeks, and as the Iberians employ very similar military tactics to us, I would say so, yes.

All have fallen before our legions. The Roman soldier is superior to any soldier anywhere in the world. You talk of them being influenced and trained by the Carthaginians as if that were meant to frighten us! Massive, well equipped armies of Carthage have repeatedly been bested by our legions.
Senator, boastfulness ultimately leads to weakness! If you believe that our soldiers are "superior", surely that means that the Scutarii are also superior as they are of close relation to our own armies.

As someone who has done my fair share of fighting for the Republic, let me tell you, I fear no enemy!

Iberia? Pah! Let them come!

If - *IF* - they come.
Maybe you do not fear them, but you must seriously consider the impact of fear their invasion will have on our northern peoples: innocent civilians leading their own lives. You seem so selfish that you only want battle yourself, you do not care about these people who are put under threat!

And then you contradict yourself. You say we should not fight the Macedonians because they are ohhhh so strong and powerful that such a war would be long and bloody. Then, you tell us that we must attack Iberia because they are even stronger and more powerful! By your own logic such a war would be even longer and bloodier. Furthermore it would cause us to abandon our extrememly strong position in Cisalpine Gaul for a bunch of under-developed, disloyal, hard to defend lands.
Let us think about Macedon:

Their army is very powerful. Very strong. In fact, so is the army of Iberia. But their is one crucial difference: As long as we can dominate the seas and fortify our position in Venetia, the Macedonians will have no threat on our homelands. The only threat the Macedonians bare is on our lands in Achaea. These lands are not even inhabited by Roman peoples anyway, so why should we care about their survival? The whole expedition to Epirus gave us huge borders with the Macedonians: however, these borders are very easy to defend. Now I know what you are going to say: our borders in the Alpes are easy to defend too. But this is not as true as it may at first seem. (I will explain why Epirus is more strategically important later) We do not need to expand into Macedon, because we have only a few chokepoints in the area that need to be defended.

We have a defensible crossing at Massilia. So what? The land beyond is inhabited by Gauls, who do not threaten us, and they are allied to the Iberians. (at this point I would like to remind you of the excellent work that Senator Verginius did in leaving the Gauls at this position, whilst the Germans took less threatening areas). The Iberians could be coming in through the Alpes at ALL ANGLES, perhaps even bypassing our troops to the point of besieging our settlements! If any lands in the Italian peninsular are besieged, we will know that we have not served the Republic.

Please, Senators, do not think of Italia as a base for expansion. These are our homelands, where innocent Roman civilians live. Why care of the peoples of Achaea? If we are unable to defend Epirus, Macedon can do anything they want to their people for all I care; they are not Roman after all.

GeneralHankerchief

07-07-2006, 21:19

You are worried about Iberia to the point as if their armies were commanded by Mars himself.

As it has been stated before, let them come! So far their battles have mostly been fought in the forests of Gaul and Germania against unwashed barbarians- they have yet to try to take mountain passes and river crossings from proper Roman armies!

They have not even attacked us. The war on Greece and Macedon is easy to justify, because only 17 years ago these people threatened to destroy our very civilization! If we apply the "friend of my enemy is my enemy" rule, Macedon also wishes us destroyed.

Meanwhile, the Iberians have attacked Carthage and Gaul. Last time I checked, we were at war with these two cities. While we were on better relations with the Germans we still were not even close to being aligned. I seem to remember some Senators ready to condemn Consul Verginius for helping Germania at all! Senators, Iberia has done nothing to us. Nothing.

And to those who accuse us of greed. Is it greedy to want more money to help out the republic? The Aegean is rich, Senators. Once it is ours, we can begin building projects in our core cities that will help the people! Surely you would rather not have them all living in rat-infested homes, right?

And while we're at it, I'm sure none of you Senators would balk at living in a little more luxury, right? Take Greece, and all Roman lives- The patricians and the plebs- are made better.

Silver Rusher

07-07-2006, 21:30

Quintus Classicianus, you still do not realise one thing! Protection of our own people is far more important than expansion into the lands of another. Are we not the Senate and the People of Rome? This program is unfair on our good folks, who wish to simply live in peace. Iberia can seriously threaten us, I assure you. And their threat does not extend only to non-Italian lands which are not inhabited by Romans, like the Macedonians. These people are capable of striking our homelands.

Also, another point which I wish to make is that our people would be made far richer if we traded with the Macedonians and Greeks than if we attacked them.

Avicenna

07-07-2006, 21:38

I would prefer living as a beggar any day, Senator Classicianus, than not live at all.

If that is what it takes to save our citizens, so be it.

GeneralHankerchief

07-07-2006, 22:05

Senator Hordeonius, Senator Laevinius, you seem convinced that Iberia poses a major threat to us all. Let me explain to you exactly where things stand.

Iberia's armies are nothing new. They are a mix of barbarian and Carthaginian troops. We have beaten both many times.

Furthermore, we have many times overcome great odds.Senator Quintus defeated Pyrrhus (who was much more of a threat to us) and his large army. Augustus Verginius threw off a Gallic ambush with inferior troops. Quintus defeated three large Carthaginian armies on Corsica. And with a blooded, inexperienced legion he held against a huge Greek army with an experienced commander- in the streets, where Greek phalanxes excel!

Senators, all of those battles were against the odds. Now imagine this. These same troops who we have beaten when we were not expected to now have the odds against them. It is they who will have to secure river crossings and mountain passes, they who have to defy conventional wisdom!

Senators, Iberia poses no threat to us. If they try to invade, they will be massacred.

If you fail to see this, then I'm sorry to say, your words will mean little to me from now on.

Silver Rusher

07-07-2006, 22:29

If they fought our armies now, maybe they will be massacred. But when there are 10 times as many of them, what will we do? Yes, it is quite possible: if we look at the rate of Iberian military growth, and couple that with data we have gained about their expansion, their is no reason that the Iberians cannot develop into a huge military power. Remember the huge advantage that Iberia currently possesses: they are fighting a war on only 1 front, and that front is quite small at present.

Wait... that's it! A solution to all our problems! We must Strike for the South! Hit the former Poeni trading colonies in Southern Iberia. They are rich, providing more trading potential and money for us, and we do not sacrifice our military position in the Alps. Of course, we may have to ship a large army there in order for this to work.

Considering your opinion on wealth, expansion, defensive positions and easy victories, Senator Quintus Classicianus, maybe you would be interested in such a proposal?

flyd

07-08-2006, 04:48

I am glad that the motions demanding an attack on Iberia have been defeated. Although there was a great deal of vocal support for them, it seems there is a significant number of wise, yet quiet, Senators in this house. That is very good.

During the second half of my term, in addition to the actions specified in the motions, I plan to destroy the Greek and Carthaginian navies. I will make securing Italy of the topmost priority. I still do not plan on starting any new wars.

Senator Aemilius, I disagree with your assessment that the Senate has lost faith in you, as a commander. The majority of it simply does not think that attacking Iberia is a good idea at this time, politically. Furthermore, as there is somewhat of a shortage of capable commanders (at least compared to the number of independent armies we have), we can certainly not afford to lose you, especially as you may soon be promoted to the rank of Praetor. It is therefore that your offer of resignation is declined. I will make a best effort to assign you to a different command, however. If you do not believe that it is within my authority, as the acting First Consul and the ranking active officer in our army, to decline resignations, you may take this matter up with the Senate. However, I would ask you to consider the fact that you are an irreplacable part of our army, and that Rome, and its people, need you.

econ21

07-08-2006, 12:38

[QUINTUS]: First Consul, if you can find no young Tribune to replace Legate Aemilius at the Massila ford, I would be happy to trade posts with him. Battling the bandits threatening central Italy has given me a renewed taste for war, while the great city of Roma would be a worthy appointment for a man so esteemed as Legate Aemilius.

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-08-2006, 13:06

Acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

Very well. If the republic has need of me in my present position, I will of course remain at my post, vigilant as always.
I am glad in retrospect, as I remain convinced the Iberians pose a significant threat to us and I would not have slept soundly knowing an inexperienced commander was left at our border crossing.

I wish you luck, wisdom and the blessing of the Gods in your final term, acting first consul.

Mount Suribachi

07-09-2006, 12:41

at this point I would like to remind you of the excellent work that Senator Verginius did in leaving the Gauls at this position, whilst the Germans took less threatening areas

And may I remind YOU that I was at the side of Verginius throughout the Gallic campaign!

our people would be made far richer if we traded with the Macedonians and Greeks than if we attacked them

I agree 100%. But the Greeks attacked us first and they will not sue for peace, therefore they must be continuously attacked until they accept a peace or are annhiliated. I do not propose a pre-emptive strike against Macedon, but the fact remains they are quite likely to attack us in the near future. In which case they will suffer the same fate as Gaul, Carthage and Greece. And by your own same logic we would be much better off trading with Iberia than attacking them, yet once again you contradict yourself

We must Strike for the South! Hit the former Poeni trading colonies in Southern Iberia. They are rich, providing more trading potential and money for us,

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, Senator Gnaus Hordeonius. Either conquest of anothers cities is better for us, or trade is. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it.

Please, Senators, do not think of Italia as a base for expansion

I suggest Senator, that you heed your own advice.

SwordsMaster

07-09-2006, 18:41

Maybe a change of policy would be appropriate. Maybe a protectorate offer should be proposed to the Greeks once their capital is sacked. They are thoroughly beaten, and would have nothing to gain from continuing their war against us. For us, it would mean that we can once again unite our greek garrisons into powerful armies and strike into Macedon with Greek and Illyrian support.

Lastly I request to be transferred either into a different garrison, or given command, as the stillness associated with my current post wastes my capabilities and drinking is not really a virtue I would like to develop.

x-dANGEr

07-10-2006, 12:26

Publius Pansa enters the hall.. "So long, Senators.."

"Now I can see how easy we're winning this war, it seems more of a waste of arms now, to occupy all these armies with that weakened opponet.. Macedonians and Greeks are from the same origin: Greece. And so, Macedonians will attack us sooner or later, so I think we should open yet another door of war, against yet another going too strong faction. We already have armies deployed in the area, and they're all capable of the event."

Braden

07-10-2006, 13:41

I am also glad that a pre-emptive war against the Iberians has been averted. Whilst we have the Greeks nearly destroyed we must complete this task before moving against any other potential foes.

Remember that the Greeks started this war and by Mars! We'll finish it. I will not be happy until we can see the oceans on the otherside of the Balkans!

Macedonia must make the first move though. We are not aggressors for the sake of aggression, we are bringers of enlightenment, we free those oppressed by outdated government, we bring industry and the hope of a united Mediterranean with us.

To those calling for a strike against Iberia I say, fear not. Time is on our side, if we wait but a few years more and if the Iberians are as aggressive as you say THEY will strike us and then, like the Greeks, we will be able to focus our full power upon them and utterly destroy them.

I understand those commanders at the Masllia fords frustration but such vices must be held for now. The World around us changes fast, you're time will come I am sure of that.

x-dANGEr

07-10-2006, 14:43

"But, Macedonians being the brothers of Greeks have already declared war on us, since they haven't aided us against their bothers, and so haven't admit their sin of attacking us.."

Braden

07-10-2006, 16:08

Convoluted reasoning Senator Pansa, but as I have no qualms about us seizing the Kingdom of Macedon and thus completely securing the peninsular, I shall not argue against it.

However, no such claims can be laid at the feet of the Iberians….tis, perhaps, a shame from certain view points that the Germanians refused us when we approached them for alliance lest we would already be embroiled in a struggle against the Iberians to defend our allies.

Mount Suribachi

07-10-2006, 17:45

Well said Decius Curtius :rtwbow:

Death the destroyer of worlds

07-11-2006, 00:02

Good to see we agree on something at least, senator Decius Curtis. It is never too late to pursue an alliance with the Germans even now.

Braden

07-11-2006, 10:35

We should always pursue Alliances where we can obtain them, the Republic is not a machine of war but a bringer of enlightenment. Sore shame that most of our neighbours fail to see this simple point and constantly rebuff our offers of alliance, trade or even the most basic of diplomatic overtures.

I say “fair enough!”, if barbarians and even, so called, cultured civilisations insist on forcing the Republic into military action by continued refusal to talk…then we WILL become that they most fear.

We will keep trying to bridge alliances between ourselves and all those around us until the final point when they force us into conflict, this goes for the Germainians, Iberians, Macedonians, Illyrians….or any others we meet.

The Republic is not unreasonable, all we wish is to secure our trade routes, free those peoples we see as under an unjust rule and ensure the continued and unhindered development of our Republic and her ideals.

Where such ideals lead us into potential conflict we will talk, if we are refused even this basic human courtesy we will try again. If we are left no other option we will fight and they will suffer dearly.

Might our diplomats seek trade and alliances further afield? The Islands of Britannia or other more Northern tribes and places perhaps.

It seems that in the next Consulship we should make a concerted effort to employ and train more diplomats and send them to the far reaches of the known world and establish trade routes….perhaps then we will have something to defend other than our own homes.

(OOC...and perhaps give us more reasons for war :idea2: )