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kataphraktoi
07-15-2006, 14:19
Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

The year is 1066, the world is changing and a new order is rising. But who will be rising stars of this new era and who will fall?

Christendom is tragically split in schism. A bitter seed has been sown in the lands of Christendom where spiritual brothers are pitted against brothers, swords are raised and spears are sharpened. Will this enmity reap an equally bitter harvest?

Dar-al-Islam too is split between the party of Ali (Shia) and the Community of the Sunni based in the respective Caliphal seats of Cairo and Baghdad. Elsewhere Islam faces collapse especially in Al-Andalus where the third rival Caliphate in Cordoba has disintegrated into petty Taifa states concerned in their own self-interest and blind to the resurgence of the small Christian states in the north who are determined to undo the humiliation inflicted upon them 300 years ago. However, there is also renewal in Islam as well. A new power from the east is coming in the form of new converts to Islam. Will these Seljuk Turks revive Islam’s fortunes and restore unity and power to Sunni Islam?

On the shores of the Bosphorus, it seems that the ancient Roman Empire may have run its course. Dynastic exhaustion is approaching with the near death of its current Emperor who is weak, feeble, incompetent and childless. Its armies are weakened by successive intrigue and powerless against recent raids by the Seljuks. Its generals, coming from noble aristocratic families are seething at such poor leadership and may soon rebel. But is it too late? Can the Romans save their 1000 year old empire?

This is also the time where brilliant individuals come to the fore and create history. From the ranks of the Normans come two of the finest generals to grace Norman history. Though they exist in two different places at once (one in Normandy and the other in Southern Italy), they share the same drive, motivation and ambition to create their own destiny. One is an illegitimate bastard, the other, a warrior of low ranking. Will William the Bastard be a Conqueror? Will Robert Hauteville live up to his name of “Guiscard” the “wily”?

In a time such as this, there are many unpredictable things as well. From steppes of the east has come the scourge of God in the form of the Huns and the Avars. From these same steppes have come the ferocious Magyars who have now become a bastion of Christendom. There is always the possibility of another eruption from the mysterious east where tales abound of unnatural beings of great military brutality and swift retribution. Will civilisation be able to resist it the next time the endless steppes unleash a new terror?

All this and more in MTR: Age of Ambition!!

Proposed Factions:

Scottish
England (Normans)
Danes
Duchy of Southern Italy
Papal States
HRE
Poland
Rus
France
Crown of Aragon
Leon-Castile
Moorish Sultanate
Egyptian SultanateTurkish Sultanate
Romaion (Byzantines)
Serbs
Venice
Hungary
Mongols
Georgia-Sakartvelo
Cumans/Qipchaqs

Aims of MTR: AOA (or Meteora) if you want :2thumbsup:

Create a "realism" modification which will immerse players in whatever faction they choose. We aim to create unique factions with unique cultures with small added features that make a difference to gameplay. We want to create a medieval world the way it should be to cater to an individual's ambition, greed for gold, thirst for battle, glory and perhaps surprisingly enough...piety.

With the likes of Caius Britannicus and Wraithdt, you can be sure that the visual content of the modification will be first class from a lowly peasant unit to an elite royal bodyguard unit. We are looking for:

Researchers - the foundation upon which the modification must be built on. Their knowledge will ensure that we will stay on the right track to create an immersive world to play in. People with considerable knowledge for a particular faction and want to be a head researcher with their own research team and with responsibilities as preparing factions previews, co-ordinating with skinners and scripters and glory and babes..PM me. However, if there is a faction with a head researcher already, PM them, not me.

Graphic Designers - They are the ones who create the interface through which players can experience MTR: AOA. We're looking for people who are excellent with graphic design programs and want the chance to show off!

We invite, anyone and everyone who wants to participate in the creation of such a modification to notify either me (Kataphraktoi) or Achilles by PM.

Team:
Project Leader: Achilles

Most honoured Researchers:
Head of Polish Faction Research: Polak 966

Head of Serbia Faction Research: DukeofSerbia

Head of England/Norman (Normandy and Italy) Factions Research: Ignoramus

Head of Turkish Sultanate Research: Cebei (HOORAY!!)

Head of Moorish/African Research: Beauchamp

Head of Danish Research: Endre (or Ringeck)

IrishArmenian

Almogaver (Crown of Aragon)

Head of Danish/Scandinavian Research: Endre

Head of Byzantium/Romaion Research: Kataphraktoi
Byzantine Emperor

Head of Georgia Faction Research: Beka

Head of Rus Faction Research: Cadmus

Head of HRE Faction Research: SabreHRE and Cutepuppy

Eltrevo (Tuetonic Knights)

Randarkmaan (Fatimid, Ayyubids)

Faenaris (Crusading Orders)

Head of Rus Faction Research: Cadmus


Tech/Visual/Graphic Wizards:
Publius - Skinner/Modeller/Graphic Artist
Kataphraktoi (stand in project leader)
Wraithdt
Caius Britannicus
Dark89 (Coder)
Chigga
Silver Rusher

CONCEPT ART
Here are a list of concept art, they are under two sections:

I'll list Orda Khan's first, in honour of his gracious effort and time to provide us with these concepts:
https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol17ef.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol43sx.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol31yc.jpg

https://img193.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1b1eu.jpg

https://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1a5eu.jpg

https://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1c1fy.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq012ic.jpg

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaqelite012pz.jpg (KIPCHACK ELITE)

https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq026vg.jpg (KIPCHAK)

https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgarinfantryman9un.jpg (VOLGA BULGARINFANTRYMAN)

https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgararcher7zz.jpg (VOLGA BULGARARCHER)

https://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolnoyan6yh.jpg (MONGOL NOYAN)

https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hun016tk.jpg (HUN)

https://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolkhan1zs.jpg (MONGOL KHAN)

Wraithdt and Kataphraktoi's stuff
https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1066kat8ok.jpg (KATAPHRAKTOI 1060S)

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghulamcavalry0rh.jpg (GHULAM CAVALRY)

https://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=varangianguard4om.jpg (VARANGIAN GUARDS 11TH-14TH CENT)

https://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversionb3kj.jpg (KLIBANOPHORI VERSION A)

https://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversiona4ve.jpg (KLIBANOPHORI VERSION B)

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tagmaticthematickat3rv.jpg (TAGMATIC KATAPHRAKTOI)

https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turcopole2jp.jpg (TURCOPOLE)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg (EXCUBITORES)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Norman_Knight.jpg (NORMAN KNIGHT)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Futtawa_prev.jpg (ADDED FUTUWWA..hopefully this works)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/JHI_prev_04.jpg NEW JANISSARY HEAVY INFANTRY - RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Men-at-Arms_Catholic_prev02.jpg DRAFT OF MEN AT ARMS

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gothicmaafinalsj7.jpg GOTHIC MEN AT ARMS

https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6527/hashishinmonosmlyy2.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hashishinmonosmlyy2.jpg) HASHASHIN

https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?i...oplitaifm0.jpg Thematikoi Hoplitai

https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?i...toxotaiwe9.jpg Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai and Thematikoi Toxotai

Silver Rusher
07-16-2006, 09:47
Great previews here, but some of the links have th.jpg at the end. Remove the .th so it is just .jpg, otherwise you get a shrunken down version with a dimensions bar at the bottom.

polak966
07-16-2006, 23:33
dont forget the 966 in my name~;p

Ignoramus
07-17-2006, 00:35
I'm willing to be a researcher.

Sarkiss
07-17-2006, 01:10
I'm willing to be a researcher.
i'm willing to be a player when it's out.:idea2: :laugh4:
seriously though, will keep an eye on this one!

kataphraktoi
07-17-2006, 08:36
At Silver Rusher, thanks for the tip :2thumbsup:

AT Sarkiss, nice one :laugh4:

At Polak, no probs :2thumbsup:

Ignoramus, check ur PM :2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi
07-17-2006, 09:06
LINKS FIXED!!!

Will release map soon.

R4P
07-17-2006, 10:48
Time to know a bit about Wraithdt:
Concepts he's responsible for:
Crusaders
Arabs
Turks (joint)

Concepts done so far:
Saracen Infantry
Ghulam cavalry
Varangian Guard
Futuwwa Infantry
Templar Knight

From:
Petaling Jaya, Malaysia

Now:
Canada, modeller and concept artist
__________________
Where can I find the 'Futuwwa Infantry'? I can't find it and these concept drawings are so beautiful; I wouldn't like to miss out on one.

kataphraktoi
07-17-2006, 11:52
I think there were two concepts I didnt post up....I'll check and re-add them later. :2thumbsup:

Ignoramus
07-17-2006, 11:56
I shall start researching tomorrow morning. I have a few things to do tonight, and the night's getting on here in Australia.

Ignoramus.

DukeofSerbia
07-17-2006, 12:05
It seems that some researchers work for MA, too or maybe I am wrong.

kataphraktoi
07-17-2006, 13:05
:2thumbsup: Yep, thats right.

Where u at Ignoramus in Australia? Im in Melbourne at the moment

ALWAYS CHECK THE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES (NEW UPDATES WILL ALWAYS BE AT THE BOTTOM) so everything can be found in the one post...:D

zakalwe
07-17-2006, 16:56
1062 - interesting start date. It will be fun to have a Saxon english faction. Very different from MTW's Anglo-Norman faction. Should mean a much greater role for anglo-saxon units.

So i guess you are having the English and the Normans as independent factions? Are you including the Norse so you can have a nice 1066 re-enactment? :)

Orda Khan
07-17-2006, 17:03
Yes, the Futuwwa has gone missing and it was a beautiful sketch

.....Orda

LestaT
07-17-2006, 17:40
Looks great to see a fellow Malaysian on board on such a great project. Good luck !!! :2thumbsup:

DukeofSerbia
07-17-2006, 18:13
Concept Draft Map:
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Proper.jpg

This link doesn't work for me. Can you sent map via e-mail?:help:

4th Dimension
07-17-2006, 19:06
It doesn't work for me either. Why didn't you upload it via imageshack.

zakalwe
07-17-2006, 20:45
What's your aims and strategy for this mod?

Is it purely concentrating on realism? On improving gameplay? On adding new features?

Will you be replacing skins? Adding new units? Adding/removing provinces? Changing names?

Is it going to be a series of releases or working towards 1 big launch?

OmarPacha
07-17-2006, 22:42
Concept arts previews look fine and there is only to hope
that researchers and modders will do their job till it's finished.
Greets

Ignoramus
07-17-2006, 23:44
:2thumbsup: Yep, thats right.

Where u at Ignoramus in Australia? Im in Melbourne at the moment

ALWAYS CHECK THE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES (NEW UPDATES WILL ALWAYS BE AT THE BOTTOM) so everything can be found in the one post...:D

That's interesting, so am I. Where do I send my research? Do I send it to you?

kataphraktoi
07-17-2006, 23:47
FUTUWWA ADDED, check first post.


1062 - interesting start date. It will be fun to have a Saxon english faction. Very different from MTW's Anglo-Norman faction. Should mean a much greater role for anglo-saxon units.

So i guess you are having the English and the Normans as independent factions? Are you including the Norse so you can have a nice 1066 re-enactment? :)

I had to move it from 1054 to 1062 because:

a) Marrakesh was found in 1062 so i couldn't give the Moors Marrakesh as a capital before 1062.

b) Toghrul Beg was given the title of Sultan after 1054 and before 1062, hence I can call the Turkish faction the Turkish Sultanate.

c) Normans in Italy start with more than one province because by 1063, the Byzantines are left with a toehold and the Normans are beginning to fight in Sicily - two-pronged ASSAULT YEAH!!

d) Yep, the Normans and English are independent factions and the Danes will be in there two. Hopefully we can script it so that a stack of Danes will be on English territory, or least script so that the Danes try to invade England.

e) Add to that Scotland in the north. Its one big messy soup :2thumbsup:


What's your aims and strategy for this mod?

Is it purely concentrating on realism? On improving gameplay? On adding new features?

Will you be replacing skins? Adding new units? Adding/removing provinces? Changing names?

Is it going to be a series of releases or working towards 1 big launch?

Realism and gameplay, but we want to create a certain atmosphere that draws you into the game by creating and representing unique cultures and achievements of each faction. As for new add features, hard to say at the moment.

Everything will be replaced. We have one of the best skinners in the business, Caius Britannicus! Check out his Crusades mod for samples of his work down in www.twcenter.net

One big launch probably. I'm only a stand-in project leader.


It doesn't work for me either. Why didn't you upload it via imageshack.

Fixed link. Plus, geocities has no popup ads so far. Well not for me anyways. :2thumbsup: Its ready for viewing DukeofSerbia, and its a massive jpeg so u might want to shrink it....:wall:


Looks great to see a fellow Malaysian on board on such a great project. Good luck !!!

Don'y forget Wraithdt, he's Malaysia too..from Petaling Jaya, I'm from small humble Malacca, the former capital of the Malacca Sultanate, now just a tourist attraction for Chicken Rice Balls and the ruins of a once formidable Portugese fortification called A'famosa (The famous).

Seems like theres going to be daily updates for this week. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :2thumbsup:

At Ignoramus:
Research data shouldn't be sent to me. Hold onto your data until I come up with a proper format for faction previews. Although for the fuedalism system, you have any idea how it should be implemented? Im interested to hear it. :2thumbsup:

And I have to add ur name to the team list now. :2thumbsup:

polak966
07-18-2006, 00:20
i dont mean to sound crazy but i think kakhaber would be excellent as a researcher for the georgians. theyre in arent they?

kataphraktoi
07-18-2006, 00:40
Im sure he'll get tons of info, but in terms of communicating it to the rest of us in English, I'm not too sure about that. And besides, I have't been able to contact him since he got banned (it seems for life) at twcenter.net. I'll leave Georgian recruitment to Beka. He's the head reseacher for Georgia so its his responsibility for that :2thumbsup: woot!

Just a notice to everyone, I have the following concepts to post this week and next week:

a)Janissary Heavy Infantry by Wraithdt (not finished, but once u see it u won't care! Its that brilliant!)

b) Men at Arms 14th century by Wraithdt

c) Klibanophori version 3

d) Imperial Tagmatic Cavalryman on horse

e) Khazar mercenary

f) Varangians

g) Other assorted Byzantine soldiers

h) Constantine Dragases

Personally, I'd get Wraithdt to do all concepts, but he's only human and can't do it all so I have to chip in :laugh4:

Trajen the 1st
07-18-2006, 07:20
Wow, this looks even more well researched then the original RTR! I have some questions though:

1.Are you planning on bringing the eras back? It could possibly work like TFT in RTW when they had different zipped campiagns. This way, you can use the same faction slots,(I.e In early campiagn you have Saxons, but in High you have Seljuks of Rum)units, and skins/models without worrying about the hardcoded limits.:idea2:

2.How do you plan on tackling the Religion issue? I mean theres a mighty big chance they'll be hardcoded like MTW1 which means no Shia/Sunni split! In short, what are your backup plans?


Really looking forword to this guys I hope this makes the money I'll shell out for MTW2 worth it!

PS:Map pic is'int working for me either.:no:

kataphraktoi
07-18-2006, 07:42
ok, guys, if the links don't work directly, its a matter of "right click and save".

In the future, I'll "imageshack" everything. Damn Geocities, good for nothing...razzle frazzle.

Hmmm, the tech guys will probably sort out the eras things. I'm not too familiar with that kind of stuff.

Since we can't have the Sunni/Shia split, either Sunni or SHia will have to be the heretics. 3 of 4 Muslim Factions are SUnnis, so I think the Shia will be the heretics. Not out of personal bias or anything cos I'm not Muslim, I'm following the "majority" mentality thats all.

LestaT
07-18-2006, 09:48
ok, guys, if the links don't work directly, its a matter of "right click and save".

In the future, I'll "imageshack" everything. Damn Geocities, good for nothing...razzle frazzle.

Hmmm, the tech guys will probably sort out the eras things. I'm not too familiar with that kind of stuff.

Since we can't have the Sunni/Shia split, either Sunni or SHia will have to be the heretics. 3 of 4 Muslim Factions are SUnnis, so I think the Shia will be the heretics. Not out of personal bias or anything cos I'm not Muslim, I'm following the "majority" mentality thats all.

There's not much theological differences anyway between the Shiah and the Sunni and the split was mainly political/tribal issue eventhough the split was big enough to bring continuos war even until today.

However, if M2TW uses the loyalty system as in BI that can be use/modded to represent the split and I'm sure that the next TW will have more than current 3 religion that have an actual effect (hardcoded stuff).

I'm pretty sure that M2TW wont be too much diffrence from BI as it'll basically uses the same engine (upgraded hopefully).

Just my 2cents.

DukeofSerbia
07-18-2006, 11:25
Fixed link. Plus, geocities has no popup ads so far. Well not for me anyways. :2thumbsup: Its ready for viewing DukeofSerbia, and its a massive jpeg so u might want to shrink it....:wall:



Yes, I see. It's pretty big file. How I will downlod that, that's the good question.:wall:

Did you receive e-mail from me in Sunday night (your time was Monday morning) or not? I ask because you didn't answer.

And now I saw that starting year is 1062. Kievan Rus desintegreted into numerous principalities. Which principality will be the major, question is now (Moscow didn't existed yet)?

kataphraktoi
07-18-2006, 12:20
oops i did see the email, but i didnt read it completely. TO download the map, "right click and save target as" on the link for the map.

The disintegration of the RUs wasn't immediate after 1054, so we have to script it in so that provinces around Kiev are rebellious, the player who controls the Rus will have to fight internecine wars.

Kipchaks were indeed one of the dominant components in the Golden Horde army, perhaps, Orda Khan can shed light on this.

I'll leave the naming of the Balkan provinces up to you except for Epirus, Thrace, Thessaly and Constantinople in which I'll get it translated into Greek by another guy.

Ok, then can ur friend show some animation samples?

The worse thing now are team members asking for more provinces when I've already hit the province limit. :laugh4:

:2thumbsup:

JANISSARY ADDED, SEE FIRST POST

Orda Khan
07-18-2006, 16:43
It must be the file size of the map, the other geocite links work OK. The Janissary Heavy Inf is stunning, superb work Wraithdt!!

The Qipchaq question.....
When the Mongol princes left for Qaraqorum, the vast majority of 'Mongol' Tumens left the west. Batu was left with his own personal army and some other commanders/personnel who decided to remain. On the whole, the so called 'Mongol' armies of the Golden Horde were Qipchaq. Batu's new realm was referred to as the 'Khanate of Qipcha'ud'. The Golden, Blue, White horde names did not apply, the whole area was under the authority of Batu. Tatar was a name applied to conquered peoples, perhaps after the destruction of the Tatars proper by Chingis Khan. This could be one explanation why both Russian and European chronicles refer to them as 'Tatars', especially when Friar Giovanni DePlano Carpini wrote about the 'Mongols whom we call Tatars'

.......Orda

DukeofSerbia
07-18-2006, 17:43
There, the Byzantine master has said it. Plus I remembered reading that the Byzantines were never really keen on adopting the western style of heavily armoured infantry and has always stuck to using lamellar and scale armour up untill the fall of the empire in 1453. The only person I know who wore full plated armour was the emporer Constantine XI during the final fall of Costantinople.


Kataphraktoi, I found that on www.twcenter.net Forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=839131&postcount=88).

Year: 1150
Event: Battle
Location: Near (small) river Tara near modern Valjevo town in Western Serbia
Sides: Romans against join forces of Serbs and Hungarians
Military leaders of Romans: Emperor Manuel I Comneni, plus generals John Ducas and ? Cantacuzenus (all were personally fought, Cantacuzen and Manuel were almost killed by Hungarians)
Military leaders of Serbs and Hungarians: Rascian Grand župan Uroš II, Rascian župans Grdeša and Vučina and Hungarian archzupan Vakhin
Battle: Roman army defeated joint forces of Serbs and Hungarians in bloody battle. Reason was highly undisciplined Serbian and Hungarian soldiers. Rascian župans Grdeša and Vučina were captured, Grand župan Uroš II and his army routed. Manuel I captured personally Hungarian archzupan Vakhin who almost killed him according to John Kinam. Hungarian army also routed.
Outcame: Rascian Grand župan Uroš II became Manuel’s vassal (second time).

I read that emperor Manuel I Comneni has protected whole body with golden armor in that battle! And I think it was plate armor from describe. It is recorded by Greek John Kinam (or Cinam).

Tellos Athenaios
07-19-2006, 00:28
Since we can't have the Sunni/Shia split, either Sunni or SHia will have to be the heretics. 3 of 4 Muslim Factions are SUnnis, so I think the Shia will be the heretics. Not out of personal bias or anything cos I'm not Muslim, I'm following the "majority" mentality thats all.


If you have to make one of them heretics the Shia is by far the best choice. They split off the mainstream muslims (which are now known as the Sunni) so in that way they are just as much heretics as all the other heretics, since the word in general applies to the way the Roman catholics saw the religious groups that split from the Church and other non catholics. But this raises another question: will you include the group from whose name the word assasin is derived? They're called Assassijnen in Dutch. They joined forces with the Shia to fight the Sunni and where famous for their suicide attacks on Sunni leaders.

Trajen the 1st
07-19-2006, 06:50
If you have to make one of them heretics the Shia is by far the best choice. They split off the mainstream muslims (which are now known as the Sunni) so in that way they are just as much heretics as all the other heretics, since the word in general applies to the way the Roman catholics saw the religious groups that split from the Church and other non catholics. But this raises another question: will you include the group from whose name the word assasin is derived? They're called Assassijnen in Dutch. They joined forces with the Shia to fight the Sunni and where famous for their suicide attacks on Sunni leaders.
They real name was "Batanis" FYI. :2thumbsup: And they were Shia. They were originally from Iran and were founded by a man named Hassan. In this timeline they dont exist yet so no need to work on them untill the next era. ;)

kataphraktoi
07-19-2006, 08:31
new concept, check first post.

interesting about the manuel komnenos and his golden armour though

Trajen the 1st
07-19-2006, 08:49
Okey FINALLY got to see the map and it looks great sofar! My only compliant is that Germany and maybe France have too many provinces and the Middle East doesint have enough. This really does'int make sense since the ME was the more highly populated area at the time period of the mod.:book: Plus noone wants to spend most of there campiagns in Germany and France.:no:

Herkus
07-19-2006, 15:35
I read that emperor Manuel I Comneni has protected whole body with golden armor in that battle! And I think it was plate armor from describe. It is recorded by Greek John Kinam (or Cinam).
It wasn't plate armour, cuz it wasn't invented back then. Instead it could be just cuirass for chest with golden decorations.

DukeofSerbia
07-19-2006, 17:00
It wasn't plate armour, cuz it wasn't invented back then. Instead it could be just cuirass for chest with golden decorations.

That's why I wrote "I think". Record of battle by John Ciman said he was all in golden armour (whenever that mean). Maybe you have right.:bow:

DukeofSerbia
07-19-2006, 17:24
Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

I resized map because original map is just too large and upload to imageshack.us. Who want to see greater map (resolution is 3508*2480) know where is the link.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5906/mtrmapresizeou2.th.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtrmapresizeou2.jpg)

According to map, factions are (alphabetical order):

Roman Catholics: Aragon, Castile-Leon, Denmark, England, France, Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, Mediterranean Normans, Normandy, Papal State, Poland, Scotland and Venice

Orthodox: Georgia, Roman Empire, Rus’ and Serbia*

Muslim: Egypt**, Moors and Seljuk Turks


* Most of (modern) Serbia was under direct Byzantium rule and those Serbs who were free and had state in Zeta were mostly Roman Catholics and rulers were also. How this will be solved, I don’t know until M2 TW came on market.
** Egypt was ruled by Fatimid dynasty (Fatimid Caliphate) who was de facto shia.

kataphraktoi
07-19-2006, 18:02
Okey FINALLY got to see the map and it looks great sofar! My only compliant is that Germany and maybe France have too many provinces and the Middle East doesint have enough. This really does'int make sense since the ME was the more highly populated area at the time period of the mod. Plus noone wants to spend most of there campiagns in Germany and France.

:laugh4: I actually trimmed down the province numbers for France and Germany and increased the number of provinces for the Middle East!!! It drove me nuts trying to erase provinces from Europe :laugh4:

By the way which provinces would you erase anyway? This is a draft map, so its likely a new version will be made later.

True, the Middle East had more population, but there were highly concentrated in its greater urban centres than Europe. Plus, a poorer Western Europe would benefit from a few more provinces as revenue bases.

4th Dimension
07-19-2006, 19:53
Most of (modern) Serbia was under direct Byzantium rule and those Serbs who were free and had state in Zeta were mostly Roman Catholics and rulers were also. How this will be solved, I don’t know until M2 TW came on market.
Maby make mixed population in the cities, and then you have to convert your populace to the prefered religion. That woul be acording to history (at least I think), because Stefan Nemanja did have the option to chose to which religion will he side. He was ultimately swayed into ortodox faith by his son Sava.

At least that's what I think. I may be wrong.

King of Atlantis
07-19-2006, 20:36
A few things.

Spain and north africa look far too barren. I think some moor islamic factions are really needed.

And secondly that very many provinces. Im not sure Ireland for example needs three provinces for itself.

DukeofSerbia
07-19-2006, 20:52
Whole Moslem Iberia (Umayyad) desintegrated in begginig of XI century into various emirates. So, those Taifa kingdoms will be represented as rebels.

King of Atlantis
07-19-2006, 21:01
Whole Moslem Iberia (Umayyad) desintegrated in begginig of XI century into various emirates. So, those Taifa kingdoms will be represented as rebels.

Yea, but still kinda unbalancing.

Another thing I just noticed.

The French lands are simply the French Crown lands resulting in most of France being rebels. The HRE which was really just a loose collection of states however is completly unified including Bohemia thus has no rebels. This does not make sense. France is piecmealed wich is rather accurate, yet at the same time the Holy Roman Empire is a single entity. This just seems terribly unbalancing.

DukeofSerbia
07-19-2006, 21:23
I'm in charge for Serbia and mostly Balkan (South Slavs), so I can't comment about what is not my area.
This map is just preview and there will be changes, I'm sure.

P.S.
About HRE I agree. We don't no how loyalty will function. Remeber HRE from MTW - when you started, most generals had very low loyalty, and AI always went in civil war. Voltaire said: "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.":laugh4:

-Almogaver-
07-19-2006, 21:46
I know changes will be made to the map but regarding the Crown of Aragon I don't know how you will call the starting province...
you have united Aragon and Catalonia in one province and both are cut in half (I know this is correct in terms of representing the area they owned at the time but you will have to "invent" a new name for the province).
I'd made them start with two provinces: Aragon and Catalonia and make them both bigger, deleting the one southwards.

polak966
07-20-2006, 00:14
wat do you mean? i see, going along the northern coast from the left, galicia (or possibly leon), castilla, navarra, zaragosa.

kataphraktoi
07-20-2006, 05:45
Feedback is always, I just want everyone to know that its still a draft concept map until I get the researchers I need.

I'm looking for a head researcher into France and HRE.


I know changes will be made to the map but regarding the Crown of Aragon I don't know how you will call the starting province...
you have united Aragon and Catalonia in one province and both are cut in half (I know this is correct in terms of representing the area they owned at the time but you will have to "invent" a new name for the province).
I'd made them start with two provinces: Aragon and Catalonia and make them both bigger, deleting the one southwards.

I'm trying to erase more provinces so I can split the Crown of Aragon into two, don't worry Almogaver, I want to split it into two provinces, but just not yet, I'm still balancing other stuff :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

The reason why I won't delete the Taifa of Zaragossa is because I want as many Taifa's represented as possible. But of course some Taifas cannot be represented. Keep ur feed back coming, its appreciated.


Yea, but still kinda unbalancing.

Another thing I just noticed.

The French lands are simply the French Crown lands resulting in most of France being rebels. The HRE which was really just a loose collection of states however is completly unified including Bohemia thus has no rebels. This does not make sense. France is piecmealed wich is rather accurate, yet at the same time the Holy Roman Empire is a single entity. This just seems terribly unbalancing.

Taifa states won't be pushovers, they will have adequate armies to prevent a simple overrunning by the Christian states.

Originally, I intended for the HRE to have only provinces under direct control, but I just decided to give them everything just to see how it would turn out, but my first intention is to limit HRE to its German hinterland which excludes Bohemia, Burgundy and Italy. It is likely, I will do this in the next map because I never felt comfortable giving HRE control over provinces they never had direct control over. Like Spain, at least the rebels will be formidable. WHen the time comes, MTR will decide how to implement gameplay so that defeating rebels requires more than winning one battle, but will involve other strategic considerations.

One of my thoughts revolved around giving faactions provinces they had direct control over. Eg. Byzantium had Serbia, Georgia and the Mirdasid/Marwanids as vassals, but I do not think it would represent them fairly in the game so I decided not to give them such territories. I also intend to change the Turk's territories in the future since Transoxiana was a vassal state, not a Seljuk province.


A few things.

Spain and north africa look far too barren. I think some moor islamic factions are really needed.

And secondly that very many provinces. Im not sure Ireland for example needs three provinces for itself.

Lol, I originally gave 14 provinces to North AFRICA, but the 199 province limit forced me to cut down provinces. Im operating on the assumption that the province limit for mtw2 is the same as RTW.

Ignoramus
07-20-2006, 06:29
I would give the HRE control over everything. It would work perfectly with my feudal system.

DukeofSerbia
07-20-2006, 11:40
One of my thoughts revolved around giving faactions provinces they had direct control over. Eg. Byzantium had Serbia, Georgia and the Mirdasid/Marwanids as vassals, but I do not think it would represent them fairly in the game so I decided not to give them such territories. I also intend to change the Turk's territories in the future since Transoxiana was a vassal state, not a Seljuk province.


Prince of Zeta (Dioclea) Michael in 1062 wasn't vassal of Roman Empire. He was indepedent and he received crown from Pope in 1077 (first Serbian king).

Tellos Athenaios
07-20-2006, 21:06
Will Venice be somehow represented?

(They began as the most western city of the Eastern Roman Empire, became a semi independent city state with control over the Balkans later and ended up as a completely independent city state.)

Which raises my next question: will the Silk road and more important the trade routes in the Med from and towards Venice be represented? I mean Venice being Europe's key to silk, spices and so on...

Woad Warrior
07-20-2006, 21:11
@ Orda Khan, Kataphrakoi, and especially Wraithdt - how on earth do you manage to draw concept art like that? Do you just use a standard pencil, read up on some info and then draw away? I've been trying to draw some concept art, have you got any tips, becuase those drawings are incredible!:2thumbsup:

King of Atlantis
07-21-2006, 07:55
Taifa states won't be pushovers, they will have adequate armies to prevent a simple overrunning by the Christian states.

Well if there is really a 30 faction limit like they said why not make Coroboda a faction? I just think factions are funnier to fight than rebels and a spain filled with rebels, dispite how strong they may be would be kinda boring.


Originally, I intended for the HRE to have only provinces under direct control, but I just decided to give them everything just to see how it would turn out, but my first intention is to limit HRE to its German hinterland which excludes Bohemia, Burgundy and Italy. It is likely, I will do this in the next map because I never felt comfortable giving HRE control over provinces they never had direct control over. Like Spain, at least the rebels will be formidable. WHen the time comes, MTR will decide how to implement gameplay so that defeating rebels requires more than winning one battle, but will involve other strategic considerations.

My point was less HRE should or should not have control over all its lands as it was if they do then France certainly should. Im aware of the situation of the French Crown, but aside from Brittany, Normady, Flanders, and Burgundy, France should be excert control over its own territory. Otherwise the situation is again one that doesnt seem apealing gamewise.


Lol, I originally gave 14 provinces to North AFRICA, but the 199 province limit forced me to cut down provinces. Im operating on the assumption that the province limit for mtw2 is the same as RTW.

I meant in terms of factions. Again all rebel. People like factions. Fighting rebels gets dry and boring. Is there no faction that could be around tunisia or something?

4th Dimension
07-21-2006, 08:16
Well if there is really a 30 faction limit like they said why not make Coroboda a faction? I just think factions are funnier to fight than rebels and a spain filled with rebels, dispite how strong they may be would be kinda boring.



My point was less HRE should or should not have control over all its lands as it was if they do then France certainly should. Im aware of the situation of the French Crown, but aside from Brittany, Normady, Flanders, and Burgundy, France should be excert control over its own territory. Otherwise the situation is again one that doesnt seem apealing gamewise.



I meant in terms of factions. Again all rebel. People like factions. Fighting rebels gets dry and boring. Is there no faction that could be around tunisia or something?
To reply to that sugestion about 30 fact.
We don't know if there would be that many factions. So they are putting on map only those necsary that fit into what we know about faction number. If we find out when gam comes out that there is indeed f limit of 30 then aditional will be included. Untill then they go I think by RTW limit.

King of Atlantis
07-21-2006, 08:41
Well if there is really a 30 faction

I kinda covered myself on that one...

kataphraktoi
07-21-2006, 08:51
:2thumbsup:
Well if there is really a 30 faction limit like they said why not make Coroboda a faction? I just think factions are funnier to fight than rebels and a spain filled with rebels, dispite how strong they may be would be kinda boring.

Don't you see the point? THats only IF... we don't know if its a certainty or not so we can only plan for 21 factions, its the most sensible thing to do. It is far easier to add a faction than remove one. Believe I've thought a LOT about what factions to include, of course, I would love to include more factions....but as you already know....I am constrained. So please understand.


My point was less HRE should or should not have control over all its lands as it was if they do then France certainly should. Im aware of the situation of the French Crown, but aside from Brittany, Normady, Flanders, and Burgundy, France should be excert control over its own territory. Otherwise the situation is again one that doesnt seem apealing gamewise.

And my point is, its still a draft concept map. We are still adjusting things. I just hope people don't see it as FINAL MAP. So please, while I accept all feedback, just don't assume its a final map. I think it would be a good challenge to assert proper and direct control over France than just give them territories of their vassals. But it depends in the end on Ignoramus and his fuedalism idea. Like everything else, we are still changing.


I meant in terms of factions. Again all rebel. People like factions. Fighting rebels gets dry and boring. Is there no faction that could be around tunisia or something?

As I said before. Faction limitations. I'd like to add another Moorish faction, but I can't.


To reply to that sugestion about 30 fact.
We don't know if there would be that many factions. So they are putting on map only those necsary that fit into what we know about faction number. If we find out when gam comes out that there is indeed f limit of 30 then aditional will be included. Untill then they go I think by RTW limit.

:2thumbsup:

I would be the first one to add more factions. But until then, we wait.


Will Venice be somehow represented?

(They began as the most western city of the Eastern Roman Empire, became a semi independent city state with control over the Balkans later and ended up as a completely independent city state.)

Which raises my next question: will the Silk road and more important the trade routes in the Med from and towards Venice be represented? I mean Venice being Europe's key to silk, spices and so on...

Yep, its on the map, but you just have to zoom cos its small hehehe. :laugh4:

Hmmm interesting idea about the Silk Trade Route, I suppose when it comes to modding it, certain cities along the Slik Trade Route will recieve bonuses, Eg. Train merchants with bonus ability or something like that.

Venice controls Istria (joined to Venice, not by land but by province borders); Zara and Spalato at the beginning of the mod. I have to change ownership of Ragusa to Byzantines later.

As Venice you can conquer and limit yourself to islands and port enclaves should you decide to stay as a naval power.

If I recall the islands/enclaves you can conquer in the Mediterranean and Black Sea are:\
1) Chios - known for its valuable mastic, and worth a province in my opinon
2) Crete - good archers
3) Rhodes
4) Cyprus
5) Euboea or Negroponte
6) Peloponessus or Morea
7) Athens
8) Klimata, covers Cherson, Sudak, Caffa
9) Tmutarakan
10) Corsica
11) Sardinia
12) Balaerics
13) Sicily
14) Malta
15) Tunis
16) Tripoli
17) Acre
18) Genoa
19) Arles

Happy sailing and trading :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

I've always wanted to play as the Venetians


I kinda covered myself on that one... hehe no probs. By the whats ur favourite faction?

King of Atlantis
07-21-2006, 08:59
As I said before. Faction limitations. I'd like to add another Moorish faction, but I can't.

This is more or less what I wanted to hear :). I understand you right now have the basic plan, but its good to hear that if possible you would be happy to add more factions in the areas I highlighted.


And my point is, its still a draft concept map. We are still adjusting things. I just hope people don't see it as FINAL MAP. So please, while I accept all feedback, just don't assume its a final map. I think it would be a good challenge to assert proper and direct control over France than just give them territories of their vassals. But it depends in the end on Ignoramus and his fuedalism idea. Like everything else, we are still changing.

Which is why im discussing, not crying. As this is not the final product I figured now is the time to offer my two cents. That being said you guys have been very good about responding to critisisms :)


As Venice you can conquer and limit yourself to islands and port enclaves should you decide to stay as a naval power.

If I recall the islands/enclaves you can conquer in the Mediterranean and Black Sea are:\
1) Chios - known for its valuable mastic, and worth a province in my opinon
2) Crete - good archers
3) Rhodes
4) Cyprus
5) Euboea or Negroponte
6) Peloponessus or Morea
7) Athens
8) Klimata, covers Cherson, Sudak, Caffa
9) Tmutarakan
10) Corsica
11) Sardinia
12) Balaerics
13) Sicily
14) Malta
15) Tunis
16) Tripoli
17) Acre
18) Genoa
19) Arles

Happy sailing and trading

I've always wanted to play as the Venetians

Now that sounds like an intresting faction indeed :)

DukeofSerbia
07-21-2006, 11:45
Venice controls Istria (joined to Venice, not by land but by province borders); Zara and Spalato at the beginning of the mod. I have to change ownership of Ragusa to Byzantines later.



What controled Venice is good question. As I know Dubrovnik/Ragusa was independent Republic and in 1062 they accepted Byzantine supremace, but Roman troops weren't never in town. So, Ragusa/Dubrovnik will be rebel town.

I will look for Zara/Zadar and Spalato/Split what status they had in 1062. Later they were under Venice noth.
Remember that Zara was sacked by Crusaders in November 1202. After that Zara became part of Venice. Probably Rebels, too.
Spalato/Split was took by Venice in 1420. Again Rebels, too.

kataphraktoi
07-21-2006, 15:32
Dalmatia (Zara and Split) were protectorates under Venice. Basil II bestowed upon the Doges of Venice responsibility for the Dalmatia. The question of Ragusa is harder.

Ragusa was an archontate before the 11th century with a small number of men (100 or so), but in 1062, there is a much more ambiguous situation, perhaps a slow move to independence, I will research this tomorrow as I came across it a few days ago. A history book on Serbia reveals conflicts between Serbs and Byzantines with evidence that Ragusa was under direct Byzantine control, I will check back tomorrow and post my findings

Orda Khan
07-21-2006, 16:12
@ Orda Khan, Kataphrakoi, and especially Wraithdt - how on earth do you manage to draw concept art like that? Do you just use a standard pencil, read up on some info and then draw away? I've been trying to draw some concept art, have you got any tips, becuase those drawings are incredible!:2thumbsup:
Speaking for myself, it's pencil work; I believe Wraithdt uses a palate (which I must look into due to the splendid finish achieved)
A while back, Duke John asked if I would colour the sketches I have done and I have completed 4 of them in water colours, so I will post them shortly. I am currently constructing a leather lamellar cuirass (very time consuming) so I am a little bogged down at the moment.
I have spent many years researching nomadic life on the steppe, the Mongols and Huns in particular. Historical accounts and pictures help and archaeological finds add invaluable information. Of course, when trying to achieve historical accuracy, nobody can claim to be 100% spot on the best we can do is form a picture from the evidence before us.
Good luck with the concepts

.......Orda

kataphraktoi
07-21-2006, 18:17
shOW us a pic of u in lamellar one day won't u? :2thumbsup:

DukeofSerbia
07-21-2006, 20:51
Dalmatia (Zara and Split) were protectorates under Venice. Basil II bestowed upon the Doges of Venice responsibility for the Dalmatia. The question of Ragusa is harder.

Ragusa was an archontate before the 11th century with a small number of men (100 or so), but in 1062, there is a much more ambiguous situation, perhaps a slow move to independence, I will research this tomorrow as I came across it a few days ago. A history book on Serbia reveals conflicts between Serbs and Byzantines with evidence that Ragusa was under direct Byzantine control, I will check back tomorrow and post my findings

About Dubrovnik - in 1062 town was under Byzantium protection. And I will also look for true. http://www.hostkingdom.net/westbalk.html#Ragusa

Venice had control of Zadar and Split only on paper, especially Zadar. Reality was different. And that I will check.http://smiles.zy.cz/230.gif

DukeofSerbia
07-21-2006, 20:53
Well if there is really a 30 faction limit like they said why not make Coroboda a faction? I just think factions are funnier to fight than rebels and a spain filled with rebels, dispite how strong they may be would be kinda boring.

I meant in terms of factions. Again all rebel. People like factions. Fighting rebels gets dry and boring. Is there no faction that could be around tunisia or something?

Taifa kingdoms will be represented realistic as much as possible (we don’t know limits of m2 tw until game come in market). There were several strong emirates in Al-Andalus after death of Umayyad Caliph al-Muzaffar in 1008. Those emirates were divided between Arabs, Berbers and Slavs. Arabs held the most of Al-Andalus, Berbers were located in the south of Iberia and Slavs held eastern parts. Slavs were the weakest and they survived longest in Baleares (Emirate of Mallorca from 1076) until 1114 when famous Emir Mubākir ibn Suläymān was killed. He made in Baleares a strong pirate base from 1093 to 1114 when united fleets and armies of Pisa, Catalonia, Narbonne and Montpellier led by Count Ramon Berengar III occupied the island and killed him. Mubākir was the last Slavic emir. Next year (1115) Murabitin (Almoravid) fleet took Baleares from Christians.
You may know guess that Baleares will be strong pirate island… http://smiles.zy.cz/481.gif

Conclusion - expect at least strong rebels in Al-Andalus, as we don’t know how much slots will be in the game.

If there will be 30 free slots, then I can bet that Cumans will be faction. http://smiles.zy.cz/174.gif

kataphraktoi
07-22-2006, 07:38
About Dubrovnik - in 1062 town was under Byzantium protection. And I will also look for true. http://www.hostkingdom.net/westbalk.html#Ragusa

Venice had control of Zadar and Split only on paper, especially Zadar. Reality was different. And that I will check.

Today I consulted three sources, two Byzantine and one Serbia and found the following.

Dubrovnik was indeed under Byzantine protection, but it was a combination of direct and autonmous control without being a protectorate.

Dubrovnik was the seat of a strategos...but not a regular garisson which suggests that local resources were deployed from Dubrovnik and not Constantinople.

Dubrovnik was first included in the theme of Dalmatia by Basil I, level of control was still local but it was part of the Byzantine administrative system since it was part of a theme. The theme of Dalmatia came under Venetian sovereignty when Basil II granted the title Dux Dalmatiae to the Venetians, however, it seems to have effectively covered Zara and Spalato since Dubrovnik was under Byzantine influence and local control until the Normans seized it in 1081, whereby it was seized back by Alexius I Comnenus.

I'd still say Dubrovnik should be under Byzantine control was it was under direct (with strong local autonomous) control under a Byzantine strategos. However, forces guarding the city should unique and not composed of Byzantine soldiers.


Taifa kingdoms will be represented realistic as much as possible (we don’t know limits of m2 tw until game come in market). There were several strong emirates in Al-Andalus after death of Umayyad Caliph al-Muzaffar in 1008. Those emirates were divided between Arabs, Berbers and Slavs. Arabs held the most of Al-Andalus, Berbers were located in the south of Iberia and Slavs held eastern parts. Slavs were the weakest and they survived longest in Baleares (Emirate of Mallorca from 1076) until 1114 when famous Emir Mubākir ibn Suläymān was killed. He made in Baleares a strong pirate base from 1093 to 1114 when united fleets and armies of Pisa, Catalonia, Narbonne and Montpellier led by Count Ramon Berengar III occupied the island and killed him. Mubākir was the last Slavic emir. Next year (1115) Murabitin (Almoravid) fleet took Baleares from Christians.
You may know guess that Baleares will be strong pirate island…

Conclusion - expect at least strong rebels in Al-Andalus, as we don’t know how much slots will be in the game.

If there will be 30 free slots, then I can bet that Cumans will be faction

yep agreed, under MTR, rebels will be portrayed more as independent factions with their own unqiue character in the province they are in.

wraithdt
07-23-2006, 08:44
@ Orda Khan, Kataphrakoi, and especially Wraithdt - how on earth do you manage to draw concept art like that? Do you just use a standard pencil, read up on some info and then draw away? I've been trying to draw some concept art, have you got any tips, becuase those drawings are incredible!:2thumbsup:

Just wanted to drop in to say Hi to you guys just so you know I'm not dead. I've busy with work and other stuff lately so I rarely have time to do new sketches. Look out for a new Gothic Foot Knight in glorious colour some time soon.

Woad Warrior: I do lotsa personal research and reading into the subject and then I start conceptualizing. It really helps if you can get visual references; I highly recommend the Osprey military books as they are beautifully illustrated and contain many photos as well. When I draw I sometimes use the good ol pencil but mostly I'm more comfartable with a wacom tablet as it allows me me to draw straight into the computer using photoshop. Its alot more convinient that way.

wraithdt
07-23-2006, 08:52
Sorry for double posting but I couldn't edit my previous post. No idea why.

Anyway I forgot the say thanks to you guys for the compliments. I appreciate it.

Trajen the 1st
07-24-2006, 01:38
Taifa kingdoms will be represented realistic as much as possible (we don’t know limits of m2 tw until game come in market). There were several strong emirates in Al-Andalus after death of Umayyad Caliph al-Muzaffar in 1008. Those emirates were divided between Arabs, Berbers and Slavs. Arabs held the most of Al-Andalus, Berbers were located in the south of Iberia and Slavs held eastern parts. Slavs were the weakest and they survived longest in Baleares (Emirate of Mallorca from 1076) until 1114 when famous Emir Mubākir ibn Suläymān was killed. He made in Baleares a strong pirate base from 1093 to 1114 when united fleets and armies of Pisa, Catalonia, Narbonne and Montpellier led by Count Ramon Berengar III occupied the island and killed him. Mubākir was the last Slavic emir. Next year (1115) Murabitin (Almoravid) fleet took Baleares from Christians.
You may know guess that Baleares will be strong pirate island… http://smiles.zy.cz/481.gif

Conclusion - expect at least strong rebels in Al-Andalus, as we don’t know how much slots will be in the game.

If there will be 30 free slots, then I can bet that Cumans will be faction. http://smiles.zy.cz/174.gif
SLAVS?! WTF? Since when were there Slavs in Spain?!:inquisitive: EDIT:Okey I checked Wiki seems these "Saqaliba" were mercs in the service of the Umayyads who set up emirates in Spain. Heh, yah learn something new every day!

kataphraktoi
07-24-2006, 06:44
SLAVS?! WTF? Since when were there Slavs in Spain?! EDIT:Okey I checked Wiki seems these "Saqaliba" were mercs in the service of the Umayyads who set up emirates in Spain. Heh, yah learn something new every day!

Yep, we try to uncover all the little things :2thumbsup: The more obscure the better hehe.

You know of any other unique phenomena in the Muslim factions?

There were also Slavs who assimilated in Syria as well.

DukeofSerbia
07-24-2006, 10:54
SLAVS?! WTF? Since when were there Slavs in Spain?!:inquisitive: EDIT:Okey I checked Wiki seems these "Saqaliba" were mercs in the service of the Umayyads who set up emirates in Spain. Heh, yah learn something new every day!

Wikipedia is not good for searching history as Wiki in not primary source (everybody can write what he want and then interpret that).

Primary sources about Slavs in Iberian pininsula are like Abū l 'Abbās al Maqqarī "Nafh at tīb min ghusn al Andalus" from XI century etc (little secret are others).

Plus, Francis Conte (professeur à l'Université de Paris-Sorbonne) wrote excellent book Les Slaves -Aux origines des civilisations d'Europe centrale et orientale (VI-XIII siècles).

It will be more suprises...:2thumbsup:

P.S.
Slavs weren't only excellent mercenaries, they were also poets, teachers, eunchs, viziers etc in Al-Andalus.

Randarkmaan
07-24-2006, 13:23
There were also Slavs in the service of the Fatimids...

kataphraktoi
07-24-2006, 16:50
Ive done more research on Zara and Split and it seems that Venice has difficulty in forcing its protectorate over Zara and Split despite being given the Ducate of Dalmatia :laugh4: In 1062, there was resistance to a Venetian fleet in Zara....so we know its a grey era of control/loss/control and even more ambiguity. But this means to me that Venice has no effective control over Zara and it seems Split as well. Venice will have to reinforce its Ducate starting from 1062. No soup for you Venetians :laugh4:

Well, at least, u get to send a fleet and start ur maritime empire eh???

:2thumbsup:

Show no MERCY ME HEARTIES!!

kataphraktoi
07-24-2006, 16:54
Ive done more research on Zara and Split and it seems that Venice has difficulty in forcing its protectorate over Zara and Split despite being given the Ducate of Dalmatia :laugh4: In 1062, there was resistance to a Venetian fleet in Zara....so we know its a grey era of control/loss/control and even more ambiguity. But this means to me that Venice has no effective control over Zara and it seems Split as well. Venice will have to reinforce its Ducate starting from 1062. No soup for you Venetians :laugh4:

Well, at least, u get to send a fleet and start ur maritime empire eh???

:2thumbsup:

Show no MERCY ME HEARTIES!!

DukeofSerbia
07-24-2006, 17:14
What I said about Zara and Spaleto? Zara was sacked by Crusaders in 1202 as town refused to accept Venetian supremacy. Several years before that Zara's fleet destroyed large Venitian fleet in gulf of Tarent or ?

P.S.
Open your e-mail. And you doubled posted.

Cebei
07-24-2006, 21:55
I can be Seljuk-Ottoman researcher. I did it before and quite frankly, even the Ottoman flag used in the game is utter rubbish. Turkic faction has all to reasearch for.

kataphraktoi
07-26-2006, 09:17
Check revised map in first post :2thumbsup:\

or here!

https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8014/revisedks2.th.jpg (https://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=revisedks2.jpg)

Ah darn it. Keep forgettin...Dang.

4th Dimension
07-26-2006, 10:33
Just one question. Where did Serbia go? Or is it representated by that litle province encircling Dubrovnik?

And your first link is wrong. Remove the damn .th from it.

kataphraktoi
07-26-2006, 11:57
Serbia is represented by the Dioclea (Duklje) region, I'm waiting from DukeofSerbia to confirm if Raska/Rascia and Duklje were under the same ruler or not, Dubrovnik was under a Byzantine Strategos but not quite directly under control of Constantinople, nor independent either.

Hopefully Cebei can tell me what territory the Seljukids controlled in 1062.

Notes on changes:
Added provinces:
Tbilisi
Aragon
Western Sahara

Proposed future changes:
More islands..but not as provinces.

These maps are still in the "process".

Randarkmaan
07-26-2006, 15:07
Just a humnle suggestion of mine: If there indeed is going to be possible to have 30 factions I think an interesting faction to add could be the Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad, yeah I know at the start date they were pawns to the Seljuqs (who nonetheless treated them with respect and gave them an illusion of power), but during the 12th century they were practically independent until they were destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century that is. Even though they were historically confined to a small territory they have a few interesting sides, the Futtuwa code (which was nearly like the chivalric code in Europe, though with much more emphasis on religious zeal I think) developed there and the Abbasids were also terrorized by the Assasins' sect (who would be very fun to include one way or another)...

kataphraktoi
07-26-2006, 16:33
I've read recent reviews and the developers keep talking about 17 playable and 4 unplayable factions, which means 21 factions. Darn it. :embarassed:

But if there is indeed 30 faction slots, we will consider a lot of things. :2thumbsup:

I would like a Hashashin faction too!!

I would have liked more pagan factions actually like the Qipchaks, Patzinaks, etc, etc....

Randarkmaan
07-26-2006, 16:46
Well, I remember reading on the .com forums a little while back that they were considering raising the faction limit to 30...

Epistolary Richard
07-26-2006, 19:35
I believe kataphraktoi is referring to this - rather more recent - developer interview.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67314

I don't really think there would be scope for more factions at this point (unless there are going to be empty slots left open for modding).

As it is, 17 playable factions and 4 unplayable (most likely rebels, Papal States and the two Native American factions).

kataphraktoi
07-26-2006, 20:28
Research Template (Organising Research Data):
You guys can be as detailed possible, theres no rush! MTW2 isn’t out yet, so you have like 6 months to research it!! Have fun!! And remember, small things matter too!

SYMBOL /FLAG of FACTION:

1) NAME OF RESEARCHER: Eg. Supamurat

2) FACTION: Eg. Danes

3) INTRODUCTION TO FACTION:
Eg. The ferocious northmen have been tamed by Christianity. Now they uphold the name of Christ as a Christian Kingdom…etc,etc. The year is 1062.…etc, etc.

4) PROVINCES:
Check my map to see which ones your faction can claim in the year 1062. I'm still making changes, but the provinces were pretty much as they are now. I will notify of any province border changes, but highly unlikely from this poiint on.
Province Name: Eg. Thrace
Capital of Province: Eg. Adrianople (Edirne) If possible, state alternative name as well
Description of province: Eg. Flat featureless plain, good for farming but exposed to enemy attacks.
Tradeable products from province: Wheat
Raw resources from province: eg. Gold

5) MILITARY UNITS:
Remember the mod goes from 1062 to 1453, so unit list must cover this range!!
Name of military unit (if possible, name of unit in native tongue of faction):
Description of military unit:
Unit Type: Describe as either
- LIGHT INFANTRY
- MEDIUM INFANTRY
- HEAVY INFANTRY
- MISSILE INFANTRY
- MISSILE CAVALRY
- LIGHT CAVALRY
- MEDIUM CAVALRY
- HEAVY CAVALRY
- SUPER HEAVY CAVALRY
- ARTILLERY
- GUNPOWDER
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: Rate out of 10
Defence: Rate out of 10
Charge: Describe as either WEAK/MEDIUM/STRONG/IRRESISTIBLE
Armour:
Melee Weapons:
Missile Weapons:
Defensive Panoply:
Speed:
Morale
Discipline:
Notable abilities:

Example of a military unit:
Name of military unit: Klibanophori; Singular Klibanophoros
Description of military unit: A renaissance of the Late Roman Clibanarii, the Klibanophori was re-introduced by Nikephoros Phokas who..etc,etc
Unit Type: SUPER HEAVY CAVALRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics:
Melee Attack: 8
Defence: 8
Charge: MEDIUM
Armour: Lamellar, Mail, Padded Epilorikon
Weapons: Mace, Lance
Missile Weapons: Javelins
Defensive panoply: Small shield
Speed: Slow
Morale: Very good
Discipline: Excellent Discipline
Notable abilities:
Can form wedge
Can fire javelins before charge

6) CULTURE OF THE FACTION:
I’ll leave it at your discretion as to what you consider culture, but it should at minimum discuss religion…although I’d like someone to mention FOOD!!

7) FAMOUS FIGURES:
Famous people in your faction from 1062 - 1453
Don’t limit yourself to just military figures!
It could be:
- Religious figures
- Statesmen
- Poets
- Artists

8) FAMOUS BUILDINGS:
Very obvious - famous buildings. Eg. Hagia Sophia

9) FAMOUS ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE FACTION:
Eg. Seljukids famous for tile work, etc, etc

10) ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OF INTEREST:
- Famous qoutes
- Poems
- Famous Documents

Here is the skeleton TEMPLATE: :2thumbsup:

SYMBOL /FLAG of FACTION:

1) NAME OF RESEARCHER:

2) FACTION:

3) INTRODUCTION TO FACTION:

4) PROVINCES:
Province Name:
Capital of Province:
Description of province:
Tradeable products from province:
Raw resources from province:

5) MILITARY UNITS:
Name of military unit:
Description of military unit:
Unit Type:
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack:
Defence:
Charge:
Armour:
Melee Weapons:
Missile Weapons:
Defensive Panoply:
Speed:
Morale
Discipline:
Notable abilities:

6) CULTURE OF THE FACTION:

7) FAMOUS FIGURES:

8) FAMOUS BUILDINGS:

9) FAMOUS ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE FACTION:

10) ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OF INTEREST:

Randarkmaan
07-26-2006, 21:44
There's just something I remembered, something pretty important, and it's an issue in a way (in that it could tough to implement) and it's also pretty interesting and it's about Egypt and it's a about religion, the religion in question being Christianity, Coptic Christianity.
Well to put it simply up until the end of the 12th century Egypt was actually a predominately Christian country (most ordinary people were Coptic Christians), however representing them as Catholics or Orthodox Christians wouldn't be right as their belief differed on a key issue, they believe that Christ had two 'natures', so to speak, a human and a divine and they were united but not mixed together, because of this belief they had previously been persecuted by the Byzantines and were viewed with distrust (and as heretics) by Catholics. Muslims did tolerate them and allow them to practise their religion, provided that they pay the special tax for other 'people of the book', some must think that because of this it could work making them Muslims but I don't think that would quite solve it for all their tolerance the Muslims did persecute the Copts at times as well, a certain Fatimid Caliph (Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah) was the worst and sped up the process of making the country majorly Muslim. The Crusades also created many prejudices against Christians amongst Muslims, even though many Eastern christians held the Catholics as much in contempt as the Muslims did.

So, even though the game is not yet out, how should we try to solve this one?

polak966
07-27-2006, 02:42
i had a quick little idea. was it possible to script rebellions in rtw? if it was then it will probably be do-able again in m2. if it is, then maybe we could stage rebellions that would recreate feudal fragmentation of certain countries like poland (1138) and the kiev rus (circa 1054).

kataphraktoi
07-27-2006, 04:20
There's just something I remembered, something pretty important, and it's an issue in a way (in that it could tough to implement) and it's also pretty interesting and it's about Egypt and it's a about religion, the religion in question being Christianity, Coptic Christianity.
Well to put it simply up until the end of the 12th century Egypt was actually a predominately Christian country (most ordinary people were Coptic Christians), however representing them as Catholics or Orthodox Christians wouldn't be right as their belief differed on a key issue, they believe that Christ had two 'natures', so to speak, a human and a divine and they were united but not mixed together, because of this belief they had previously been persecuted by the Byzantines and were viewed with distrust (and as heretics) by Catholics. Muslims did tolerate them and allow them to practise their religion, provided that they pay the special tax for other 'people of the book', some must think that because of this it could work making them Muslims but I don't think that would quite solve it for all their tolerance the Muslims did persecute the Copts at times as well, a certain Fatimid Caliph (Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah) was the worst and sped up the process of making the country majorly Muslim. The Crusades also created many prejudices against Christians amongst Muslims, even though many Eastern christians held the Catholics as much in contempt as the Muslims did.

So, even though the game is not yet out, how should we try to solve this one?

its all hardcoded. :embarassed: by 1062, the Copts and the Monophysites have little influence since egypt and the middle east is majority musliim by 950s. however, we may be able to script it so that whoever owns Jerusalem also benefits from the revenue gained from pilgrimages to the holy shrines.

We could also script buildings that are purpose built to regulate "minority affair", they have the ability to increase revenue by their responsibility for imposing and collecting jizya. Not too sure though...


i had a quick little idea. was it possible to script rebellions in rtw? if it was then it will probably be do-able again in m2. if it is, then maybe we could stage rebellions that would recreate feudal fragmentation of certain countries like poland (1138) and the kiev rus (circa 1054).

exactly what i had in mind.

Guys please note the research template!!

kataphraktoi
07-27-2006, 08:28
Here are our factions list, will also be posted in first post:

Scottish
England (Pre-Norman)
Duchy of Normandy
Danes
Duchy of Southern Italy
Papal States
HRE
Poland
Rus
France
Crown of Aragon
Leon-Castile
Moorish Sultanate
Egyptian SultanateTurkish Sultanate
Romaion (Byzantines)
Serbs
Venice
Hungary
Mongols
Georgia-Sakartvelo

Randarkmaan
07-27-2006, 12:50
by 1062, the Copts and the Monophysites have little influence since egypt and the middle east is majority musliim by 950s.

That may be true for the Middle-East as a whole, but Egypt was majorly Coptic Christian at the mod's starting year...

kataphraktoi
07-27-2006, 14:42
Is there any important Coptic activity in the year 1062, or after 1062??

As I said before, its all hardcoded.

Randarkmaan
07-27-2006, 16:04
Nah, no really important activities except that they were excempt from military service (because of the special 'peoples of the book'-tax) and that they were persecuted by a Fatimid Caliph by the end of the 11th century...

DukeofSerbia
07-27-2006, 16:58
Notes on changes:
Added provinces:
Tbilisi
Aragon
Western Sahara


Aragon didn't own Catalania (Barcelona) in 1062 as they were separate states: Kingdom of Aragon and County of Barcelona. They merged in 116x. So, Catalonia should start as rebel Christian province.

DukeofSerbia
07-27-2006, 17:06
There's just something I remembered, something pretty important, and it's an issue in a way (in that it could tough to implement) and it's also pretty interesting and it's about Egypt and it's a about religion, the religion in question being Christianity, Coptic Christianity.
Well to put it simply up until the end of the 12th century Egypt was actually a predominately Christian country (most ordinary people were Coptic Christians), however representing them as Catholics or Orthodox Christians wouldn't be right as their belief differed on a key issue, they believe that Christ had two 'natures', so to speak, a human and a divine and they were united but not mixed together, because of this belief they had previously been persecuted by the Byzantines and were viewed with distrust (and as heretics) by Catholics. Muslims did tolerate them and allow them to practise their religion, provided that they pay the special tax for other 'people of the book', some must think that because of this it could work making them Muslims but I don't think that would quite solve it for all their tolerance the Muslims did persecute the Copts at times as well, a certain Fatimid Caliph (Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah) was the worst and sped up the process of making the country majorly Muslim. The Crusades also created many prejudices against Christians amongst Muslims, even though many Eastern christians held the Catholics as much in contempt as the Muslims did.

So, even though the game is not yet out, how should we try to solve this one?

If religion will be hardcoded, then Coptic Christians should be Orthodox. There is no difference between Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy in current time. Orthodox Churches accepted Oriental Orthodoxy and in future there will be full community.

kataphraktoi
07-27-2006, 17:32
Im taking a break. Updates won;t be as frequent, but there will still be weekly updates. And to all team members doing research don't forget the template!!!!!!!

REMINDER AGAIN: CONSULT THE TEMPLATE!! :2thumbsup:

-Almogaver-
07-28-2006, 12:35
REMINDER AGAIN: CONSULT THE TEMPLATE!!

Don't worry, we'll use it. That way it'll be easier to organize all the info.:2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi
07-28-2006, 13:10
Don't worry, we'll use it. That way it'll be easier to organize all the info.

Neato:2thumbsup: By the way, did u notice how Catalon and Aragon have their own provinces now?? It was a high priority for me when I tweaked the map. I have a new revised map later.

I'd like to say a BIG BIG BIG THANKS to all FACTION RESEARCHERS SO FAR. Concepts are fun to draw, but its nothing without the research which constitutes the crispy immaculate canvas for us guys to work on. :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

cutepuppy
07-29-2006, 18:03
I'm prepared to do research for the HRE and/or French.

kataphraktoi
08-03-2006, 06:40
Here's a treat from the one and only wraithdt!

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gothicmaafinalsj7.jpg

ANd another treat, this guy is not with us, nor do we know him personally, but his stuff is still cool.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62076

AliAS
08-03-2006, 15:13
Hi .
Please put Kingdom of Bohemia to MTR .
Czech was realy important in that time.
And please. Put city Presburg (today Bratislava) On the north of Magyar.
In my language medieval Magyar was Uhorsko and Slovakia sometimes called "upper uhorsko" . And When Turkey attack on Magyar Bratislava was City king was became king (a dont know how it tell in english)
That all.
And Thanx for this modification :-D

Orda Khan
08-03-2006, 17:20
Here's a treat from the one and only wraithdt!
Another gem.

ANd another treat, this guy is not with us, nor do we know him personally, but his stuff is still cool.
What a talent, his work is remarkable. I am really impressed by the effects that can be achieved with those 'tablets'

.........Orda

kataphraktoi
08-03-2006, 18:08
At Orda Khan
I'm gonna get me one of them tablets at the end of the year, I didn't have time to carefully buy one last year, but this year, its high on the wishlist!!

I'm still an old schooler with pencil and rubber, but I like the textures and colours generated by it that I want to get a tablet soon!


Please put Kingdom of Bohemia to MTR .
Czech was realy important in that time.
And please. Put city Presburg (today Bratislava) On the north of Magyar.
In my language medieval Magyar was Uhorsko and Slovakia sometimes called "upper uhorsko" . And When Turkey attack on Magyar Bratislava was City king was became king (a dont know how it tell in english)
That all.
And Thanx for this modification :-D

Depends on number of faction slots. Hopefully we can get 30 or so factions slots, I 'd like to implement war wagons and see Jan Ziszka in action!

beauchamp
08-03-2006, 19:57
Salamualeikum all,
Glad to be part of MTR, glad to see that people are workin on as well.
BTW Kataphractoi, who is the other Muslim reasearcher? I would like to colabarate with him and share reasearch etc.

Shokran wa Ma'salema.

beauchamp
08-03-2006, 19:57
Sry, double post

Randarkmaan
08-03-2006, 23:21
I'm the other muslim researcher (Egypt), I would glady share research and collaborate with you.
Though I am going to Spain in three days, but don't worry I have access to internet there...

kataphraktoi
08-04-2006, 05:51
I'm the other muslim researcher (Egypt), I would glady share research and collaborate with you.
Though I am going to Spain in three days, but don't worry I have access to internet there...

He means not only in terms of research area, but also by faith :2thumbsup:

In that case, I'm referring to Cebei, head of Turkish research!!! :idea2: :idea2: :idea2: :idea2: :idea2: :idea2: :idea2:

Randarkmaan covers Egyptians, so its also a good idea to collaborate together. The three amigos.

Hope everyone is doing well. :2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi
08-04-2006, 05:54
In the next few weeks, all researchers will be discussing on gameplay and what features we would to see in MTR.

Randarkmaan
08-04-2006, 10:24
He means not only in terms of research area, but also by faith

Woops, well then I have to disappoint you beauchamp...

beauchamp
08-04-2006, 12:45
Its fine, im actually a Baha'i :laugh4: .

So Cebei is turkish and persian then? Or just factions like Seljuqs and Ottomans...
I have alot of information on Persia (mostly on safavid, but I have alot on Timurids, Ilkhanids, Hashishin and the Nizaris etc).

kataphraktoi
08-04-2006, 16:44
Its fine, im actually a Baha'i .

So Cebei is turkish and persian then? Or just factions like Seljuqs and Ottomans...
I have alot of information on Persia (mostly on safavid, but I have alot on Timurids, Ilkhanids, Hashishin and the Nizaris etc).\

oh crap!! :laugh4: :laugh4: My bad...my very very interfaith BAD!

Cebei covers mainly Seljuks, Ottomans, various Turcoman dynasties, but its up to him what Turkic powers he decides to cover.

Although, I'd be very VERY VERY interested in small players like Hashashin and Nizaris as units available to particular factions. I'm after small unknown groups that can contribute in terms of military units and culture as well! Don't forget the small things!!

Randarkmaan is going to Spain? Take some awesome photos of Moorish architecture won't ya ? :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

beauchamp
08-04-2006, 18:53
Yes I know, he better take pics of the greatest palace to grace the world, the Alhambra (or al-Hammarra in arabic literally "the red").

Anyways, about the Hashishin or Nizaris, they might be difficult to create as a nation, seeing as they fought only using "assassins", and not really much of an organized armies (not to say that fanatical infantry arent good soldiers, but they were not match for someone like Salah-u-din). They did in fact control the area between Lebonon and Judeah, and had many castles throughout Lebonon and hid in the mountains. Ive never actually read "the davinci code" but apparently its author made some distinction that the knights templar and the hashishin were connected or some b.s. Historically, tho, the Nizaris did cooperate with the crusader states and bargained for the land that I explained above.

Still, they would make great mercs.

Randarkmaan
08-04-2006, 20:35
I think I remember reading that the theory that the Templars and the Assassins were "connected" exists mainly because the Templars and the Assassins shared a very similar ranking system as well as a pretty similar uniforms, and I think both wore white robes and had a red symbol on it (the Templars a cross and I can't remember what the Assassins had). I'm not sure if it goes any longer or if it's anything like this, which also reminds me that I have a book about the Templars somewhere...


Randarkmaan is going to Spain? Take some awesome photos of Moorish architecture won't ya ?

I would, but it seems this is going to be mostly a sort of swimming, suntanning, ie. comfort vacation, too hot to be driving far in a car. I could try and take some pictures at a later time, don't worry we have an appartment down there and can go there more than once a year.


Also, out of interest, where was that university again? I think there were many but I remember seeing a program about the Moors on television and it mentioned a certain university... Just curious

kataphraktoi
08-05-2006, 14:17
Well, at least take photos of some nice...er...people...could be off....er...good use for modelling princess portraits :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

-Almogaver-
08-07-2006, 12:31
Neato By the way, did u notice how Catalon and Aragon have their own provinces now?? It was a high priority for me when I tweaked the map. I have a new revised map later.

sorry for the delay. I was one week on vacation. Yes, I've noticed it and I'm very pleased~:cheers: .:2thumbsup: that way it'll be more accurate. and, it's Catalonia by the way~;)

Impressive concept art! (as usually)

AliAS
08-07-2006, 18:59
THX kataphraktoi
If you need maybe i Find some info about bohemia ~:)

DukeofSerbia
08-07-2006, 20:09
Welcome AliAS to .org. and MTR thread. Are you famous AliAS from rtr.org forum?

Cebei
08-07-2006, 21:26
\

oh crap!! :laugh4: :laugh4: My bad...my very very interfaith BAD!

Cebei covers mainly Seljuks, Ottomans, various Turcoman dynasties, but its up to him what Turkic powers he decides to cover.

Although, I'd be very VERY VERY interested in small players like Hashashin and Nizaris as units available to particular factions. I'm after small unknown groups that can contribute in terms of military units and culture as well! Don't forget the small things!!

Randarkmaan is going to Spain? Take some awesome photos of Moorish architecture won't ya ? :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

Whoops, sorry I am on a vacation, just saw this. Yes, I will be covering the Turkic factions in Anatolia. Main powers are Seljuks and Ottomans but the complete list of principalities ("beylik"s) are as follows

Saltuklular
Mengücükler
Kemah-Erzincan Kolu
Divriği Kolu
Danişmendliler
Dilmaçoğulları -Akkoyunlular
İnaloğulları
Ermenşâhlar
Artuklular
Çobanoğulları
Alâiye Beyleri
Aydınoğulları Beyliği
Aydınoğlu Gazi Umur Bey
Candaroğulları ( İsfendiyaroğulları)
Ankara Ahi Beyliği
Dulkadıroğulları
Eretnaoğulları
Eşrefoğulları
Germiyanoğulları
Hamîdoğulları
Kadı Burhaneddin Ahmed Devleti
Karaisaoğulları
Karamanoğulları Beyliği
Lâdik (Denizli) Beyliği
Menteşoğulları
Pervâneoğulları
Ramazanoğulları
Sâhib-Ataoğulları
Saruhanoğulları
Tâceddînoğulları
İzmir ve Efes Beylikleri

Probably I will not be doing most of them, but I think this list is instructive if we are to create rebel factions in Anatolia.

polak966
08-08-2006, 02:26
alias if you have troubles saying sumthing in english type in slovak and ill try to translate. just use simple language

AliAS
08-08-2006, 10:14
2 DukeofSerbia > Yes I m that AliAS from RTR.ORG ~:wave: and that famous LOL ~:)
and polak966 > THX .
____________
hmmm I Think i must waste much time in totalwar.org ~:)

Duke John
08-08-2006, 10:57
Excellent piece of art by wraithdt :2thumbsup: I am looking more forward to these updates than the official ones!

AliAS
08-08-2006, 12:29
I do some advertisement of this mod in my site ~:)

Cadmus
08-08-2006, 12:41
Well, I finally made it to the forum. Seems it's already filled good.
One question though. I've been playing along with the research already, but what does the team want from the information I gathered up to now.
And I also have many propositions I came up with when researching.
And starting date is... 1066? Which is very good. There is strife amongst the heirs of the Rus :duel:

kataphraktoi
08-08-2006, 13:04
:2thumbsup:
THX kataphraktoi
If you need maybe i Find some info about bohemia

I'm hoping that the faction slots go to 30, if so, Bohemia is definitely in. It would be cool to see Wagenburgs and Mr Zizska in the game.


Whoops, sorry I am on a vacation, just saw this. Yes, I will be covering the Turkic factions in Anatolia. Main powers are Seljuks and Ottomans but the complete list of principalities ("beylik"s) are as follows

Saltuklular
Mengücükler
Kemah-Erzincan Kolu
Divriği Kolu
Danişmendliler
Dilmaçoğulları -Akkoyunlular
İnaloğulları
Ermenşâhlar
Artuklular
Çobanoğulları
Alâiye Beyleri
Aydınoğulları Beyliği
Aydınoğlu Gazi Umur Bey
Candaroğulları ( İsfendiyaroğulları)
Ankara Ahi Beyliği
Dulkadıroğulları
Eretnaoğulları
Eşrefoğulları
Germiyanoğulları
Hamîdoğulları
Kadı Burhaneddin Ahmed Devleti
Karaisaoğulları
Karamanoğulları Beyliği
Lâdik (Denizli) Beyliği
Menteşoğulları
Pervâneoğulları
Ramazanoğulları
Sâhib-Ataoğulları
Saruhanoğulları
Tâceddînoğulları
İzmir ve Efes Beylikleri

Probably I will not be doing most of them, but I think this list is instructive if we are to create rebel factions in Anatolia.

Another possibility is to integrate any unique units from the beyliks into the Turkish Sultanate faction, is it ok to call the Turkish faction the Turkish Sultanate?


I do some advertisement of this mod in my site

:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:


Well, I finally made it to the forum. Seems it's already filled good.
One question though. I've been playing along with the research already, but what does the team want from the information I gathered up to now.
And I also have many propositions I came up with when researching.
And starting date is... 1066? Which is very good. There is strife amongst the heirs of the Rus

Yep, change to 1066 again, I actually decided against it in the beginning, but eventually circumstances made 1066 very attractive.

Consult the template which is posted in this thread.

Plus ideas for gameplay such as features, tech trees, etc should be made in a separate file for private viewing.

kataphraktoi
08-08-2006, 18:04
https://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byzpreviewbw6.gif

Just a little something I scrounged up. Will explain in more details later. I'm tired, sleepy and falling in love. Good nite. :2thumbsup:

https://img319.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cannyissoprettyuc2.gif

Our 1066 map, can all MTR researchers confirm the province allocations???

Plus if u want to suggest changes, they are allowed on the following conditions:

1) To add a new province, u have to suggest an elimination of an existing province
2) To change a province boundary, just tell me what to do

Don't post suggestions here, PM me instead. Cheerios

DukeofSerbia
08-08-2006, 18:08
2 DukeofSerbia > Yes I m that AliAS from RTR.ORG ~:wave: and that famous LOL ~:)


Do you remember Slavic thread in rtr forum where you are moderator? There we talked in different Slavic languages.:laugh4:

@kataphraktoi

You have wrong spelling on the map. Believe me.

polak966
08-08-2006, 19:49
regarding allocations poland at this time did not control its northern most maritime province.

AliAS
08-08-2006, 21:03
Yes I rememeber. it was GREAt i telling slovak you serbian. And we understand us. ~:)
and what is with RTR forum ???

Cebei
08-08-2006, 22:27
Another possibility is to integrate any unique units from the beyliks into the Turkish Sultanate faction, is it ok to call the Turkish faction the Turkish Sultanate?
.

Between 1038-1500(the game's end) there are 3 major Turkish sultanates in the region:

The Great Seljuk Sultanate (1038-1157)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Seldschuken-Reich-map.png

The Anatolian Seljuk Sultanate (it was part of the Great Seljuk Sultanate, but it broke away later on) (1078-1318)

The Ottoman State ("empire" after Constantinople, 1453) (1291-1923) :dizzy2:

There are dozens of other principalities and states in the region.

Anyway, I think it will be correct to call them all as "Turkish Sultanate" or "Turkish Empire" as we cannot name these 3 states individually. Unique units can be integrated into the faction, but I expect having unique rebel units will be real fun :2thumbsup:

Cebei
08-08-2006, 23:10
Another note:

Is it possible to incorporate the famous Janissary band into the game?

http://www.muslumangenc.com/media/marslar/mehter/mehter.JPG

Historically, it would have positive morale effects on friendly troops and negative morale effects on enemy troops.

I think we can make them buildable in cities; but they won't be a single unit. Rather a single Janissary band would be comprised of 20-30 units and their movements could be modelled similar to units operating a trebuchet or cannon.

I can even supply you with Janissary band music mp3s as unit sounds; you will hear them playing when you get closer, which fits into the existing voice engine of the game.

What do you think? An Ottoman army is never realistic enough without the janissary band!! :)

beauchamp
08-08-2006, 23:28
I think their should be a band...but they should be recruiteable, and boost morale when their by troops :laugh4:.

Heres my reasearch so far for the cities and territories of the maghrib and tunis:

Cities, Provinces:
Almoravids:
-Marrakech
-Tangier
-Fes
-Sijilimasa
-Cordova
-Sevilla
-Bealrics
-Granada

Almohads:
-Marrakech
-Tangier
-Fes
-Sijilimasa (western sahara, it would be the city in that big blotch of desert below all of the fertile provinces in your map).
-Cordova
-Sevilla
-Granada
-Tunis
-Tripoli
-Kairouan
-Algiers

Grenadines (Al-Andalus):
-Granada

Hafsids:
-Tunis
-Kairouan

Ill translate them later, once I can gather more books and materials. Until now, please critisize etc. Also, I have a question about the provinces of the game: Will they work similar to RTW? Because I heard in some FAQ awhile ago that one could build a castle separate from a city and recruit soldiers there...

Cebei
08-08-2006, 23:35
I think their should be a band...but they should be recruiteable, and boost morale when their by troops :laugh4:.


Historically, the janissary band members are not recruited, they were trained in cities in special music schools. But I agree they should have a "range" under which they can have the morale bonus.

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 05:10
You have wrong spelling on the map. Believe me.

Are we talking about Branicevo - Pomoravlje? If so, yes I did mispell it :laugh4
I only noticed it after I saved it as a gif file. And also Beligrad, I spelt it as Beligread...bad!


regarding allocations poland at this time did not control its northern most maritime province.

Noted and acted upon :2thumbsup:

GOt ur PM, sure go ahead, knock urself out!!


Yes I rememeber. it was GREAt i telling slovak you serbian. And we understand us.
and what is with RTR forum ???

Are u asking where is RTR forum? If so, its offline for the moment :(


Anyway, I think it will be correct to call them all as "Turkish Sultanate" or "Turkish Empire" as we cannot name these 3 states individually. Unique units can be integrated into the faction, but I expect having unique rebel units will be real fun Exactly what I was thinking!! I won't treat rebel factions as rebels, but as independent faction in their own right, so expect unique rebels as such :2thumbsup:


Is it possible to incorporate the famous Janissary band into the game? i would love, I hope there is "priest" unit in the game which we can mod into a Janissary Band...


I can even supply you with Janissary band music mp3s as unit sounds; you will hear them playing when you get closer, which fits into the existing voice engine of the game.

ANother great idea!! It should be LOUD!


Ill translate them later, once I can gather more books and materials. Until now, please critisize etc. Also, I have a question about the provinces of the game: Will they work similar to RTW? Because I heard in some FAQ awhile ago that one could build a castle separate from a city and recruit soldiers there...

I think the FAQ is referring to the tech tree option where u choose between a structure that gives u better military infrastructure or a better revenue raising infrastructure.

Have u checked the 1066map I posted recently???


Historically, the janissary band members are not recruited, they were trained in cities in special music schools. But I agree they should have a "range" under which they can have the morale bonus.

Well, it could be possible to create a music building of some sort.

Too bad no sub-woofers back then :embarassed:

Hip Hop Janissaries anyone??

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 05:19
https://img530.imageshack.us/img530/62/byzpreviewbw6.th.gif (https://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byzpreviewbw6.gif)

Now for my little comments. THis is not a proper preview like the ones MA (which were quite good actually), more like a conceptual diary of whats in mind. This is for the all the Byzantine/Romaion fans out there. :P

Structure as follows - PROVINCE : CAPITAL : PORT

1) BARION : BARION : BARION
In 1066, the Romaion have a small little foothold in Southern Italy in Barion. In this fortified city, the Romaion flutters alone hostile surroundings. However, it is also a prosperous city and port. Historically, it took a long siege to capture the city, a testament to its fortifications and to its defensive qualities by which to defend the Romaion claim to Italy. A good focal point for recruiting Norman and Longobardian Ethnikoi.

2) RAGUSA : RAGUSA : RAGUSA
The seat of a Strategos since the time of Basil I, the port city of Ragusa is a combination of direct control and autonomy in that while it is part of the Romaion administrative system, it is dependent on resources deployed locally and not from the centre. Therefore, the Strategos maintains a different institution and system from other Romaion provinces. Ragusa is capable naval power in its own right, historically, Ragusa begins to assert its independent character as the game moves on and away from the orbit of the Romaion sphere. Good province to train reliable, competent naval forces...that is, if you keep control of an independent-minded people like the Ragusans.

3) EPIROS : IOANNINA : DYRRACHION
The mountainous terrain of Epiros is a strategically important defensive barrier against the encroachments of invaders coming from the West. However, its treacherous terrain is also a factor in governing this region. The terrain has given its inhabitants an independent character and disputatious nature, and yet, would the state's most valiant and brave fighters when called upon. Ioannina is the region's capital and is superbly situated defensively. Its port is the prosperous and strategic Dyrrachion, the first stage of the Via Egnatia, the major road that runs through to Konstantinopolis. Ideal region to recruit hardy Albanian and Vlach infantrymen ideal for mountainous guerilla warfare.

4) MAKEDONIA : SKOPI : NO PORT
The home of heroes like Megas Alexander and his invincible phalanxes is now a province that guards the northern approaches to the Thessalia and Ellas provinces. Its capital Skopi is located at the peak of the Axios River and served as an important strategic defensive guard into the flatter, richer plains surrounding Thessalonki and the Thessalian plains. Historically, Makedonia is the crossroads of many rival powers which in turn bring a variety of ethnikoi in the region. It is possible to recruit Tourkoi cavalry from this region due to settlement policies of Romaion Emperors in the 11th century.

5) THESSALIA : THESSALONIKI : THESSALONIKI
The second city of the empire is the port city of Thessaloniki, with its superb fortifications and its international reputation as a trading entrepot, it is the ideal location of the capital of the province of Thessalia. Not only does this province benefit from trade, but also from the richer agricultural produce of its plains further south. As an important naval center, one can raise excellent naval forces.

6) ELLAS : ATHINAI : ATHINAI
Birthplace of Greek civilisation which later gave the Romaion their new language, a hellenised Christianity and a new cultural outlook after Latin culture faded away in the face of a strong Hellenic character in the east. While not as famous as it was, Athinai is still the capital of an iimportant province. It is the location of a famous and prosperous silk manufacturing center (located in Thebes). Athinai is also a good location of naval forces where the naval tradition is still strong. A prominent site in Athinai is the Church of the Virgin Mary, once dedicated to a different female, the goddess Athina - from whence the city derived its name - located on the Akropolis.

7) PELOPONNISOS : KORINTHOS : PATRAS (I'm thinking of combining it with Ellas later because it was combined under the Komnenos later and it would free up a province)
Korinthos was actually the capital of Ellas, but for purposes of province segmentation, it can't be. Korinthos is thus, the leading city and capital of the Peloponnisos peninsula of Greece. Like Athinai, it too benefitted from the silk trade and prospered. Its port is the port city of Patras to the north-west. Historically, it was conquered by the Frankish Crusaders and the peninsula named Morea.

8) EUBOEA : KHALKIS : KHALKIS
A strategic island base as a place of refuge for civilians and defeated military forces as well as a place to keep an eye on the mainland. Its capital is the port city of Khalkis. Island has a decent agricultural base. Historically, it was acquired by the Venetians.

9) KRETE : KHANIA : KHANIA
Once a base for Musliim piracy, now an important naval bulwark against such piracy. The province of Krete guards the entrance into the Aegean Sea and not an island to give up easily. Krete has acquired a reputation for its archers. Historically, Kretan archers were famous in the later Romaion army, even participating in the final siege of Konstantinopolis in 1453, and note for their fierce courage. Historically, it was claimed by the Venetians who acquired the privilege of recruiting such archers.

10) RHODOS : RHODOS : RHODOS
Another island guarding the approach to the Aegean Sea. Of historical significance as a Crusader outpost against the Ottoman Tourkoi. Rhodos has an excellent naval tradition and can be used a base for training excellent naval forces.

11) THRAKE : KONSTANTINOPOLIS : KONSTANTINOPOLIS
The "Queen of Cities" resides in the province of Thrake. Known as a holy city protected by God, Konstantinopolis is a rich and prosperous economic and political center of the Romaion empire. Here, one can find all the trading goods of the world transversing froom the East to the West in its busy markets. The capital is famous for its collection of sacred relics and abundant gold domed churches so as to secure its reputation as a major pilgrimage point. Major famous buildings are the Hagia Sophia; the Nea Ekklesia; Porta Aurea; Acqueduct of Valens; The Great Palatial Complex; The Hippodrome; Hagia Eirene and Sancta Sergios and Bacchus. The capital also boasts the best fortification in the medieval world with a complex and formidable triple barrier series of walls on the landside. Located in Konstantinopolis is the Scholon (The Schools) who are the Imperial Tagmatic forces which form the heart of the empire's professional forces and the Emperor's bodyguard and also a strong naval fleet equipped with the deadly "Greek Fire" or Igro Pyr.

12) BALGARIJA (using Slavic form) : TURNOVO : VARNA
Formerly, the Roman province of Moesia, but now effectively part of the Bulgarian homeland. This province enjoys the double protection of the River Danube and the mountain ranges to its south. In between this enclosure is a rich and fertile plain for the growth of agricultural produce. Its capital, Turnovo, is well situated in the mountains and provides adequate protection against invaders. Its port is Varna on the Black Sea coast. One can recruit hardy, cunning and brave Bulgarian solders into the Romaion army as either competent cavalrymen or infantrymen versed in guerilla warfare.

13) BRANICEVO - POMORAVLJE : BELIGRAD : NO PORT
Standing at the intersection of many rivers is the "White City" or Beligrad (Beograd). It is an important strategic location guarding the approaches to the Balkans. The province has been settled in recent centuries by various tribes of Slavs. Here one can recruit the tough warriors of the Slavic tribes especially Serbs as "Symmachoi" or allies.

14) KLIMATA : KHERSONESOS : KHERSONESOS
The province of Klimata is a strategic location that allows the Romaion to monitor the movement of steppes peoples as well as a base for importing goods from the north such as furs, slaves and amber. As an intelligience center, the Romaion can train excellent spies, intrepid merchants and also mercenaries of the steppe kind and the Varangian kind.

I'll complete the remaining 14 provinces later.

polak966
08-09-2006, 08:46
kata i looked up on theodosia and this is wat wikipedia said:

"it was destroyed by the Huns in the 4th century AD.

Theodosia remained a minor village for much of the next nine hundred years. It was at various times part of the sphere of influence of the Khazars (excavations have revealed Khazar artifacts dating back to the ninth century) and of the Byzantine Empire.

Like the rest of Crimea, it fell under the domination of the Kipchaks and was conquered by the Mongols in the 1230s."

also why klimata? every source ive seen has called that theme chersonesos.

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 10:03
Klimata is the proper administrative name for the theme, I forgot what it translated too though...

Hmmm, I'm thinking it through and perhaps Khersonesos is probably the best.

Phew...I really wanted Cherson in, but wasn't too sure yet because of the rise of Theodosia, Sudak and other towns in the Crimea later...but apparently it survived well into the 14th cent. Good enuff for me :2thumbsup:

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 10:22
A potential unit list for the Danes. Not really finished, and a mix of swedish, norwegian, icelandic and danish sources have been used for it.

The Danish (Scandinavian) army consists of a lot of solid infantry with missile infantry mixed in, but is weak in cavalry before the high medieval period, when some elements of it may fight mounted.


5) MILITARY UNITS:
Name of military unit: Ting-Hlídmennr
Description of military unit: Royal retainer, early period (1052-1150). The guard infantry of the Danish kings and greater nobles, comparable to the Anglo-Saxon Huscarls.
Unit Type: MEDIUM TO HEAVY INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 6
Defence: 8
Charge: Medium
Armour: “Norman” helmet, with the occasional aventail, Padded Vápentreiyu, Maille Hauberk, the occasional lamellar on top of the maille. Some leg and arm splint defenses.
Melee Weapons: Swords, Axes, Two-Handed Axes
Missile Weapons: None
Defensive Panoply: Kite shields, the occasional poached-egg shield
Speed: Slow
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Excellent
Notable abilities: Can form wedge, can form shieldwall

Name of military unit: Gestír (early and late period)
Description of military unit: Light professional infantry of the retinue, used for police duties in peacetime. Commoners.
Unit Type: LIGHT INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 5
Defence: 7
Charge: Medium
Armour: Helmets and, Padded Vápntreiyu, the occasional maille.
Melee Weapons: Axes/Swords
Missile Weapons: Bows
Defensive Panoply: Round or kite shields
Speed: Fast infantry
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall


Name of military unit: Leiðangsmennr (early period)
Description of military unit: The ship-levy of the norse, primarily called out for the defense of the kingdom
Unit Type: LIGHT INFANTRY SPEARMEN
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 4
Defence: 7
Charge: Medium
Armour: None, the occasional “Norman” helmet AND maille to represent a rich farmer
Melee Weapons: Spears + axe or sword
Missile Weapons: None or bows (or separate unit)
Defensive Panoply: Large round shield, the occasional kite shield or poached egg shield
Speed: Fast infantry
Morale: Weak to average
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall, can form “phalanx”


Name of military unit: Leiðangsbogimennr (early period)
Description of military unit: One-half of the Leiðang was required to bring bows to war.
Unit Type: LIGHT INFANTRY ARCHERS
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 3
Defence: 6
Charge: Weak
Armour: None, the occasional “Norman” helmet AND maille to represent a rich farmer
Melee Weapons: sword or axe
Missile Weapons: war bow
Defensive Panoply: Large round shield, the occasional kite shield or poached egg shield
Speed: Fast infantry
Morale: Weak to average
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall, can fire flaming ammo

Name of military unit: Skutilsveinr (high period)
Description of military unit: Scandinavian knights and king’s top hirdmenn who often fought on foot
Unit Type: HEAVY CAVALRY can dismount to HEAVY INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 8 on horse, 7 on foot
Defence: 7 on horse, 8 on foot
Charge: Strong on horse, Medium on foot
Armour: Padded Vápentreiyu, Padded Brýnbrok (chausses), Maille hauberk with mittens, maille leggings, helmet (either chape-de-férs, cervellieres or great helmets) with maille coif underneath, Pláta (coat-of-plates), some of them under the maille. Some Pannzara outer textile armours. The horses are also covered with padded armour and/or maille – the typical high medieval knight.
Melee Weapons: Lances, swords/axes/maces
Missile Weapons: Crossbows
Defensive Panoply: Heater shields
Speed: Normal cavalry, slow infantry
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Excellent
Notable abilities: Can form wedges, can form shieldwall (on foot)

Name of military unit: Hirdmennr (high period)
Description of military unit: The rank-and file men-at-arms of the king, the main body of his retainers.
Unit Type: HEAVY INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 6
Defence: 8
Charge: Medium
Armour: Padded Vápentreyiu, Maille or Pannzara, Chapel-de-fer (Stálhufvu) helmet
Melee Weapons: Spears, swords/axes/maces
Missile Weapons: Bows or Crossbows
Defensive Panoply: Large infantry heater shields
Speed: Normal infantry
Morale: Good
Discipline: Good
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall, can form “phalanx”

Name of military unit: Leiðangsmennr (high period)
Description of military unit: Richer men of the later Leiðang. Better equipped, some may be mercenaries
Unit Type: MEDIUM INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 5
Defence: 8
Charge: Medium
Armour: Stálhufvu helmet, vapentreiyu, maille hauberk, the occasional pannzara.
Melee Weapons: Spears or other polearms, swords/axes/maces
Missile Weapons: None
Defensive Panoply: Large infantry heater shields
Speed: Normal infantry
Morale: Normal
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall, can form “phalanx”

Name of military unit: Leiðangsbogimennr (high period)
Description of military unit: The later archers of the leidang
Unit Type: MEDIUM INFANTRY ARCHERS
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 4
Defence: 6
Charge: weak
Armour: Vápentreiyu, stálhufvu, the occasional maille or pannzara
Melee Weapons: swords/axes/maces
Missile Weapons: Bows
Defensive Panoply: bucklers
Speed: Normal infantry
Morale: Normal
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form shieldwall

Name of military unit: Riddere (late)
Description of military unit: late medieval knights of the emerging professional army
Unit Type: SUPER-HEAVY CAVALRY can dismount to SUPER_HEAVY INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 9 mounted 8 dismounted
Defence: 8 mounted 9 dismounted
Charge: Strong
Armour: Full plate mail in the german style
Melee Weapons: Lances, longswords/axes/warhammers/maces/poleaxes
Missile Weapons: None
Defensive Panoply: Small shields or none
Speed: Slow
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Excellent
Notable abilities: Can form wedge


Name of military unit: Knægter (late)
Description of military unit: Men-at-arms, mercenaries and recruited men
Unit Type: HEAVY INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 7
Defence: 7
Charge: Medium
Armour: Late medieval plate-and-mail and helmets
Melee Weapons: Longswords, Axes, Poleaxes, Halberds
Missile Weapons: None
Defensive Panoply: Large shields or none
Speed: Slow
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Good
Notable abilities: Can form phalanx



Name of military unit: Armbrøstskydtere
Description of military unit: Professional crossbowmen
Unit Type: HEAVY MISSILE INFANTRY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 5
Defence: 7
Charge: Weak
Armour: Late medieval plate-and-mail and helmets
Melee Weapons: longswords/axes/maces/picks
Missile Weapons: Heavy Crossbows
Defensive Panoply: None or pavises
Speed: Slow
Morale: Excellent
Discipline: Good
Notable abilities:


Name of military unit: Leiðangsmennr (late period)
Description of military unit: MEDIUM MISSILE INFANTRY
Unit Type: Late medieval militia and levy.
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 5
Defence: 7
Charge: Medium
Armour: Helmets
Melee Weapons: “Sword-spears”, halberds
Missile Weapons: Bows
Defensive Panoply:
Speed: Fast infantry
Morale: Normal
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Can form “phalanx”

Name of military unit: Valslynge (early)
Description of military unit: Early man-powered torsion catapult
Unit Type: ARTILLERY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 1
Defence: 2
Charge: weak
Armour: Padded vápentryiu, helmets
Melee Weapons: swords, axes, or spears
Missile Weapons: Light catapult
Defensive Panoply: round shields
Speed: Slow
Morale: Weak
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities:

Name of military unit: Valslynge (high)
Description of military unit: A mangonel or trebuchet, likely crewed by foreign mercenaries.
Unit Type: ARTILLERY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 1
Defence: 3
Charge: weak
Armour: Padded vápentreiyu, helmets.
Melee Weapons: swords, axes or spears
Missile Weapons: Trebuchet/Mangonel
Defensive Panoply: large infantry heater shields
Speed: Immobile or slow
Morale: Weak
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities:

Name of military unit: Kanon
Description of military unit: A late medieval cannon, of the banded metal type. While the earliest reference to gunpowder in scandinavia come from 1250 or so, and a fellow named Paal Fisiler definitively demonstrates it, and explains it as a psychological weapon - "One often uses such hærbrest in war in order to make those who do not know of it flee in all directions" - in Bergen between 1292 and 1296, real siege artillery did not become common until the later middle ages.
Unit Type: GUNPOWDER ARTILLERY
Estimated Combat Characteristics
Melee Attack: 3
Defence: 4
Charge: weak
Armour: Helmets, Jacks.
Melee Weapons: longswords, poleaxes, halberds
Missile Weapons: Cannon
Defensive Panoply: None
Speed: Immobile or Slow
Morale: Normal
Discipline: Normal
Notable abilities: Boom!

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 10:24
Note that the norse, and late medieval danish, needs serious correction.

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 10:27
I can even supply you with Janissary band music mp3s as unit sounds; you will hear them playing when you get closer, which fits into the existing voice engine of the game.

I bought a DVD with tons of music and videos of the reconstructed modern band when I was vacationing in Istanbul this summer. Perhaps we could use that too.

Cadmus
08-09-2006, 12:40
Eh, and ye want the provinces in their native language too? Because not many people can read Russian. But there's also an alphabet for Latin alphabetist.

And another thing, as the game spans from 1066 til 1453, there will be new units that pop up in the armies, so I will first give you the starting units armies consisted of.

But man, those Rus are an annoying bunch of relatives, quarreling with each other all the time. I had too find which Prince was at war with the rest (luckily it was only one), but should you have chosen 1067, things would have looked much more unpleasant for me, since mych of the Rus territory was conquered by this renegade.

Also, you all know Moscovy, which succeeded Kievan-Rus, well, I guess we won't be seeing it the game then, unless you let it emerge, but there's isn't even a Princedom of Moscovy back in 1066. So no Moscow for us. History will look a bit different for the Russians in this game.

So... don't you dare to change that date now ~:) .

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 16:22
Eh, and ye want the provinces in their native language too? Because not many people can read Russian. But there's also an alphabet for Latin alphabetist. Lol, please don't write in Cyrillic, only the Roman Alphabet equivalent of the Russian Names :2thumbsup:


And another thing, as the game spans from 1066 til 1453, there will be new units that pop up in the armies, so I will first give you the starting units armies consisted of. Possibly to 1492 as well, but 1066 IS PERMANENT...WOOHOOO!!!!!!!!!


But man, those Rus are an annoying bunch of relatives, quarreling with each other all the time. I had too find which Prince was at war with the rest (luckily it was only one), but should you have chosen 1067, things would have looked much more unpleasant for me, since mych of the Rus territory was conquered by this renegade.

Originally, the date was 1054, even more easy for u!!

So the date is fixed to 1066. I've put all Rus territories under Rus control, but its not a STRONG control, I want re-create the breakaway period of the Kievn Rus which means that each Rus province will have unique troops!! yay!!! yay!!! yay!!!


Also, you all know Moscovy, which succeeded Kievan-Rus, well, I guess we won't be seeing it the game then, unless you let it emerge, but there's isn't even a Princedom of Moscovy back in 1066. So no Moscow for us. History will look a bit different for the Russians in this game.

Yeah...a pity. Its funny though, the person who founded Moscow was the grandson of a Byzantine Emperor by blood :2thumbsup: How nice, the Third Rome was founded by a descendant whose ancestor reigned in the Second Rome.


I bought a DVD with tons of music and videos of the reconstructed modern band when I was vacationing in Istanbul this summer. Perhaps we could use that too.

Cebei is the head researcher, he'll be responsible for collating all Turkish related material and stuff, I'll help him organise it too if he wants. But he's in charge of Turkish related resources. He's the Sultan :2thumbsup:

A note to all researchers, Ringeck's unit list is a good example of what's expected. And remember, add as many units as possible. While we might not use all of it due to hardcoded limits, it would be nice to have a large list to choose from. :2thumbsup:

Those Danish unit lists are great. I'm drooling over it!

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 16:31
Those Danish unit lists are great. I'm drooling over it!

They're a bit of an amalgam of different scandinavian sources, really. Due to the norwegian law collections and sagas we've got very good sources on the high medieval norwegian army, so most of the "high" lineup is norwegian, whereas the "late" lineup is primarily swedish and danish.

beauchamp
08-09-2006, 16:36
Will their be native americans as well?

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 17:25
https://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=northatlanticandbalticta0.jpg

Linked to map.

Yet again, an early draft of scandinavia and the isles (+ Ösel, which for some reason is colored danish in the map) and Finland. Map included.

Denmark is the greatest kingdom of Scandinavia and has been so since before the Scandinavians started recording history, although the kings of Norway, spurred on by their descent from saint-king Olaf, have ended Danish influence in that region. In 1066 the danes are considering invasion of England to protect the norse settlers of the north of the country.

1: JYLLAND: ARUS: ARUS
Jylland has been the center of Danish power during the Viking age, and from here Canute began his conquests. The city of Arus (modern Aarhus) has been the trading centre of Jylland for centuries. In the south, the massive Danevirke defensive works, crossing the peninsula at its narrowest point, makes invasion from the south very difficult. Jylland has excellent agricultural land.
Resources: Grain, Fish

2: SJAELLAND/FYN: ROSKILDE: ROSKILDE
The city of Roskilde, recent center of the royal mint, is the growing capital of the Kingdom of Denmark. It is reportedly the largest city in the Kingdom, and is, besides a royal hall, one of the largest churches in the kingdom and a planned cathedral school, well fortified after the last years wars with Norway. The islands are also the center of Danish shipbuilding.
Resources: Grain, Fish

3: SKÅNE: LUND: HELSINGØR OR TRELLEBORG
Lund is Skånes largest city and the see of the Scandinavian church (in 1103 it will be made the center of the archbishopric). The city is very defensible, located on a hill next to a riverford, and the province of Skåne has some of the best agricultural land in Scandinavia.
Resources: Grain, Fish

4: GOTLAND: VISBY: VISBY
The Island of Gotland has been a rich trading-island for centuries, a lynchpin of the Baltic trade. Gotland rules itself -decicions are made here by an assembly of free men and the laws they have all agreed on. Visby is a growing centre of trade.
Resources: Amber, Slaves, Fish

5: NORWAY: NIDAROS: NIDAROS OR BERGEN: BERGEN
Norway is a large, mountainous region, with pockets of good agricultural land and a few cities. The city of Nidaros, center of the Norwegian church, is the closest thing Norway has to a capital. Nidaros has a natural harbour and is a center of the trade in fish, whalebone and fur. The Norwegians build excellent longships, and make decent iron from bog ore. The king and his northern jarls also tax the heathen samii and lapps in the north and bring in exotic furs that southmen desire, and traders get their share of it by selling iron to the nomads.
(Around 1070 King Olav “the Meek” will make Bergen his capital, and the city will remain so until Oslo takes over in 1319. Perhaps it would be better to make Bergen the capital of Norway in the mod)
Resources: Iron, Hides, Fish, Whalebone

Sweden isn’t truly united in 1066. The Svear and Götar are divided into chiefdoms and elect their kinds - they have seen kings come and go in recent years, and fight amongst themselves a lot, not the least over matters of religion. Christianity is gaining the upper hand in these lands, but the question is far from settled.
6: GÖTALAND : LÖDÖSE: LÖDÔSE
The Götes are fiercely independent and keep to the older ways - paganism still lingers in many of its territories, although Christianity is clearly the dominant religion. In the Viking age, the city of Birka controlled the Baltic trade trough the territories, but the trade has recently moved north.
Lödöse is a city on the western coast river outlet of the Göta river, and is growing rich from trade with southern Norway, the Baltic, and Denmark.
Resources: Timber, Hides

7: SVEALAND: UPPSALA: SIGTUNA
The Svear are still pagan or half-pagan, most of them, men say. At the cult centre of Uppsala the norse gods are still worshipped openly, although the White Christ’s worshippers are growing in number. Still, the yearly Ting at Uppsala gathers both christian and pagan Svear to decide public matters, and every nine years human sacrifices swing from the old trees. Sigtuna has taken over the trade which once came through Birka, and has ties to the Russian and Baltic lands. There are great resources of iron in Svealand, which will one day produce Europe’s first known blast furnaces and come to dominate iron production in northern Europe until well into the 17th century.
Resources: Iron, Timber, Slaves

Finland is still independent in 1066 – the Swedes have yet to begin their expansion into the Baltic.

8: FINLAND: ?: ?
The Finnish, Tavastian, Karelian and Samii clans live in tribes along the coasts and lakes of Finland, resisting the attempts of outsiders to convert or tax them. Except for the island of Åland, there are few Svear in their lands, although they are welcomed for their trade. The clansmen are still pagan, although they know of Christianity and some have even let themselves be baptized.
Resources: Timber, Hides

9: THE ISLANDS: ?: ?
The different islands of the north sea and around the coasts of Scotland, northern England, and Ireland were settled by the norse in the Viking age and still have close cultural ties to Norway, although they don’t really regard themselves as subject to the king. They include the Isle of Man, the inner and outer Hebrides, the Shetlands, the Orkneys and the Fareoar. The islemen still trade with and raid their neighbours in Scotland and Ireland.
Resources: Fish

10: EYSYSLA (ÖSEL)
The Islands of Hiiuma and Saarema have still not been incorporated into any kingdom and live as they have for centuries, frequently mounting raids into the Scandinavian countries and getting the favour returned now and then.
Resources: Fish

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 17:27
Better link to map:

https://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=northatlanticandbalticzb5.jpg

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 17:28
15) BYTHINIA : NIKAIA : AVYDOS
A large and prosperous province west of the capital. It is here that Orthodox Christianity was established at the councils of Khalkedon and Nikaia. Nikaia is the capital of this province. It is a strongly fortified city.

16) LYDIA : SMYRNA : SMYRNA
The province of Lydia is fertile and production region with a rich port city in Smyrna. It is vulnerable along the coastline. The province also includes the island of Khios, Khios is famous for its mastic. In the medieval period, mastic was a very valuable resource. This will be a valuable export from Lydia.

17) LYKIA : ATTALEIA : ATTALEIA
The historical naval theme of the Cibbyrheaots is located here. In the 8th century, colonies of Mardaites were settled here as oarsmen and form a good base for recruiting sailors and training naval forces. It is a mountainous region in the interior, but the coastline enjoys good conditions with an important strategic port like Attaleia.

18) ANATOLIA : IKONION : NO PORT
The plateau of Anatolia is dry and barren, and yet is the home to the empire's toughest and hardiest warriors. The capital of Ikonion is located here and serves as a critical city to hold as the key to the Romaion heartland.

19) KAPPADOKIA : KAISAREIA : NO PORT
Skleri, Kourkuas and the Phoki are famous Romaion military families who live in this region as the source of the empire's best military might and leadership. The historical city of Kaisareia is their base. Any Basileus recruiting native professional military forces and generals should look here.

20) PAPHLAGONIA : SINOPI : SINOPI
The port city of Sinopi is a rich prosperous location and capital of Paphlagonia.

21) PONTUS : TRAPEZOUNTA : TRAPEZOUNTA
Trapezounta is another important port city along the Black Sea coast. Not only is it an ideal trading port city, it is also an excellent base for gathering intelligience on neighbouring regions to the east. Excellent spies can be recruited here as well as merchants. The mountainous Pontic peaks of the region also make it a highly defensible region. One can recruit guerilla Laz warriors here.

22) KHARSIANON : SEBASTEIA : NO PORT
Traditionally, the weakest point of the Anatolian defenses of the empire, it is nonetheless the location of the strategic city of Sebastea.

23) KILIKIA : SIS : SELEUKEIA
Acquired last century by the Romaion, Kilikia is a flat plain ringed by mountainous terrain. Its capital is Sis, later the capital of Kilikian Armenia historically in the 12 cent.

Anyone want to change this? Since Sis was made a capital in 1186, it could easily be some other city in Kilikia if history changes. Personally I'd prefer Tarsus or Anarzabus (Anarzava) and port as Seleukeia or Korikos.

24) LYKANDOS : MELITENE : NO PORT
Once a formidable seat of an Arab Emirate but now a seat of a Strategos protecting the empire's borders.

25) EFFRATIS : EDESSA : NO PORT
A venerable city of Christian tradition, it is now within the empire's possessions. It is also a well located city along the trade route to Antiokheia. It is also a defensively important city on the frontier.

26) ARMENIA : THEODOSIOPOLIS : NO PORT
Another seat of an Arab Emirate but now incorporated into the empire.

27) KYPROS : FAMAGUSTA : FAMAGUSTA
An important island that is rich through trade and as a military naval base to watch over the Levant. Famagusta is its capital. Historically, it was conquered by Richard the Lionheart during the Third Crusade.

28) ANTIOKHEIA : ANTIOKHEIA : ANTIOKHEIA
The seat of a patriarchate and an important Christian city. It is now the empire's greatest city on the Syrian frontier. It is the frequent target of the Fatimids because of its strategic importance and its economic prosperity adding great wealth to any empire.

Note, in a map I'm making changes to:
I've combined the Magdeburg province with Saxony which allows me to add a third province for the Moors, which means Sijilmassi will be another city in the Maghribi region.

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 17:38
10: EYSYSLA (ÖSEL)
The Islands of Hiiuma and Saarema have still not been incorporated into any kingdom and live as they have for centuries, frequently mounting raids into the Scandinavian countries and getting the favour returned now and then.
Resources: Fish

I coloured it red, but it wasn't for the Danes :laugh4: It was just red!! And its not a separate province.


2: SJAELLAND/FYN: ROSKILDE: ROSKILDE
The city of Roskilde, recent center of the royal mint, is the growing capital of the Kingdom of Denmark. It is reportedly the largest city in the Kingdom, and is, besides a royal hall, one of the largest churches in the kingdom and a planned cathedral school, well fortified after the last years wars with Norway. The islands are also the center of Danish shipbuilding.
Resources: Grain, Fish

Yep, already its own province.

In fact all province slots have been filled so OSEL can't be included in, it will be attached to a Scandinavian province, most likely Gotland. However, there may be more province deletions so I'll keep the Hebrides, Orkneys in my mind...

Thanks for the maps. :2thumbsup:

kataphraktoi
08-09-2006, 17:45
No Americans, it wouldn't be too medieval if it was included. Either 1453 or 1492 is the end date.

Does anyone want a little island called Pharaoh's island put there...not as a province, but an island nonetheless, it has an interesting history as a Byzantine/Crusader and Ayyubid fortification base in the red sea

Ringeck is the newest member of the team, actually he already was a long time ago, I forgot to add him hehe

polak966
08-09-2006, 19:51
cadmus, if you wouldnt mind you can send me the russian names written in cyrillic. i hope to translate them based on a specific transliteration system.
im realy hoping everything in this mod will be in native spelling like Eb, it just adds so much flavour to the game :)

Ringeck
08-09-2006, 22:10
In fact all province slots have been filled so OSEL can't be included in, it will be attached to a Scandinavian province, most likely Gotland.

Probably better to attach it to Estonia.
Remember to turn the border inside sweden 90 degrees.

Randarkmaan
08-09-2006, 23:59
Just checking in...
Briefly viewed Ringeck's list for Denmark's units, and there is one minor complaint that I have. And that is that the unit "Armbrøstskytter"(professional crossbowmen) have excellent morale. I feel that excellent morale should be something reserved for units that for an example are fanatical (like gazis) or are very sure of them selves if not arrogant (like knights). I think this does not fit well with a unit of missile infantry, actually especially not since they are professional because most professional soldiers were simply mercenaries and mercenaries were often known for abandoning the field if the battle did not promise well to them (what good is payment if you're not alive to use it?).
I didn't read much of the list nearly only "armbrøstskyttere" but there is one thing I want to propose for every factions and that is that most common soldiery have poor to average morale and that good morale and up is reserved for the more elite or skilled soldiers...

kataphraktoi
08-10-2006, 05:57
An Important note on defining MORALE and DISCIPLINE:
MORALE: - Motivation, mentality and attitude
WEAK: This means that soldiers have low motivation and confidence, they don’t believe in the war they are fighting and are demoralised for having to participate in it. Most likely to break and run when pressure is applied.
NORMAL: Those with normal morale are soldiers who view war as an occupation and fight for the basics of soldiery: pay. They certainly have the spirit to fight and will give a good account of themselves in battle but only to a certain point
EXCELLENT: Soldiers with excellent morale and highly motivated. It is not just high pay, but perhaps also for a cause they believe in such as religion or justice. Even independence is a cause for excellent morale. They are likely to last longer in battle.

DISCIPLINE: - Ability to listen to orders, maintain order and stability, and endurance under heavy fighting
WEAK: Unlikely to listen to orders to rally, or are impetuous and may attack without orders. However, this does not mean they have lower morale, it may be the opposite!
NORMAL: Normal level of discipline means that soldiers will follow orders and do as they’re told and are often able to maintain order and stability competently enough.
EXCELLENT: They are likely to maintain a strong order and stability in the heat of battle and likely to last longer in such conditions. They are also capable of complex strategic movements. They may be high in morale but not impetuous, they listen to orders as disciplined soldiers.


Just checking in...
Briefly viewed Ringeck's list for Denmark's units, and there is one minor complaint that I have. And that is that the unit "Armbrøstskytter"(professional crossbowmen) have excellent morale. I feel that excellent morale should be something reserved for units that for an example are fanatical (like gazis) or are very sure of them selves if not arrogant (like knights). I think this does not fit well with a unit of missile infantry, actually especially not since they are professional because most professional soldiers were simply mercenaries and mercenaries were often known for abandoning the field if the battle did not promise well to them (what good is payment if you're not alive to use it?).
I didn't read much of the list nearly only "armbrøstskyttere" but there is one thing I want to propose for every factions and that is that most common soldiery have poor to average morale and that good morale and up is reserved for the more elite or skilled soldiers...

Even if Riingeck wanted to edit it, he can't he's a junior member.


Probably better to attach it to Estonia.
Remember to turn the border inside sweden 90 degrees.

done :2thumbsup:

Cadmus
08-10-2006, 08:09
Polak, I'll try to send them this afternoon, because I have to sing a mass this morning (in Latin :2thumbsup: ). But maybe I'll also include all the documents that I have found, which I have translated into Russian. Normally it's not that difficult to transcribe them into a readable alphabet, but I'll send them through anyway.

Ringeck
08-10-2006, 08:47
Regarding Morale on the crossbowmen:

We'll have to change all such minor details when we implement the real game system anyway - since we only have RTW to go by, there's no telling exactly what "stats" we are going to be seeing in M2TW, and we need to balance things out against other units. The unit list is, as stated, only a sketch anyway - the idea is to establish the scandinavian combined army (which it basically is) as an infantry-heavy, slow and relatively heavily armed army. If we do get to split up the danes and norwegians, the danes will get more "continental" in style while the norwegians will get the good levies and heavy infantry.

I do agree on the morale thing - even though I think we'd reserve the higher levels of morale to the professional and cocky troops. Most "fanatics" in medieval history (be they muslim ghazis or the peasant's crusaders) tended to show themselves less fanatical when they actually were required to fight and die...

I'm more embarrased over the name - it's barely proper modern danish.

Ringeck
08-10-2006, 08:50
Only three possible levels of morale and discipline each is going to group 90% of all units as normal/normal....



Even if Riingeck wanted to edit it, he can't he's a junior member.


Someone rectify that? I'm going to have to edit a lot of things when we start working on models anyway.

kataphraktoi
08-10-2006, 09:41
Only way to rectify it is to make lots and lots of posts...but u have to make sure they are right the first time or else u can't edit it :laugh4:

Ringeck
08-10-2006, 10:33
Urgh. Well, I paged a moderator about it.
That being said, I'd like to have a concept artist to work with. I have a lot of material that can translate into concept sketches for different units and buildings - if we do the more generic ones first, we can use them indifferently of whether the spesific units make it to the final cut.

Cadmus
08-10-2006, 15:07
Is this what you would like?

Military Units:

Early Rus Empire:

Cavalry / Конница

- Druzhina bodyguard / Prince’s bodyguard / Личная Охрана Князя
Description: These were the closest friends of the Prince, always standing by his side, when fighting, when drinking and feasting, and dividing every plunder. They were armed with all kinds of weapons such as swords or sabers, a lance, and sometimes other bludgeoning arms. They also used the bow, having copied that from there steppe adverseries, and it made them very versatile.
Unit Type: Medium / Heavy Cavalry (gradually started to use heavier armour)

- Druzhina (Cavalry) / Дружинники
Description: Besides being bodyguards for the Prince, the Druzhina cavalry also sallied out to have some fun and plunder of their own.
Unit Type: Medium / Heavy Cavalry (gradually started to use heavier armour)

- Boyars / Бояри ( High Rus Empire )
Description: The Boyars have always been there from the beginning, but started off as the Druzhina, the sidekicks of the Prince. They were from all kinds of origin, but gradually, as they became more and more real Rus, they began to follow own glory and wealth. And from this the boyar families arose, the highest nobility in the Rus empire, and those who tried to nibble away from the power of the Prince.
Unit Type: Medium / Heavy Cavalry (gradually started to use heavier armour)

Infantry / Пехота

- Varangians / Варанги
Description: The ‘barbarian’ warriors of the Rus army, and also the most fearful. Coming from the north with their Drakkars, they first became the rulers of the Slavs, later on, as these northern leaders became , they still called upon these nothern warriors, to aid them in battle. Clad in heavy chainmail with a broad axe cleaving the air these warriors were fiercesome indeed to challenge.
Unit Type: Heavy Infantry

- Urban Militia / Милиция = Infantrymen / Пешцы
Description: Both the Urban Militia and the Voi can in fact be seen as one group, but there can be made a difference, as there were soldiers called upon to defend the city when assaulted. They were usually armed with a spear, axe or sword, with a shield, and leather armour.
Unit Type: Medium Infantry

- Peasant Levy / Voi / Вои
Description: Like the name says, these were soldiers last called upon, and least reliable, although they could still put up a fight when they needed to defend their homeland. They were dressed in mostly light armour, something which they could afford, and with the standard weaponry.
Unit Type: Medium / Light Infantry

Missile /

- Horse Archers / Black Hats / Чёрные Клобуки
Description: These soldiers originated from the steppes, and were in fact mercenaries in the Rus Army. The were or Turk, or Cuman (Pecheneg as some prefer) or any other steppe tribe of the area.
Unit Type: Missile Cavalry

- Archers / Streletsi / Стрелецы
Description: These were the archers of the Rus empire, in fact the ‘backbone’ of the army, because they had a very important role, and were used in large numbers. Off course, they needed to be backed up/defended by the regular infantry.
Unit Type: Missile Infantry

- Psiloi / Рсылой
Description: These were skirmishers, in fact widely used in many armies of the Middle Ages, hence the Greek name.
Unit Type: Missile Infantry

Crossbowmen / Самострелцы ( High Rus Empire )
Description: In fact, the crossbow never became so widely used as in the West. The bow stayed the most important missille weapon of the Rus. Only Novgorod tended to deploy crossbowmen in large numbers.
Unit Type: Missile Infantry


As for all the documents I have found, I'm first going to search for some more (there are so many, I never knew). But everything else I finish now, I will PM, to Kataphraktoi that Template, and to Polski those Russian 'texts' to transcribe.
And about the provinces, do you need that soon, else I will try to PM it this evening, but else it'll be Saturday, or even Sunday (depends if my girlfriend asks me out :2thumbsup: )

Poka!

Cadmus
08-10-2006, 15:12
Hmm, no edit than? Well, I see there are still some (many) mistakes left in the text, but it's just a preview eh.
But, about the abilities and skill points of these soldiers... I'm not very familiar with the system, so I'll let you guys do that, ok?

kataphraktoi
08-10-2006, 16:38
u have 6 months to finish the research template. No rush!

Cadmus
08-10-2006, 16:44
I'm just enjoying myself with this. It's been 1,5 month and yet another 1,5 until lessons start again, so I need to stay in shape, ye know.
Anyway, I'll send you my map, it's the only thing I'm gonna send, the rest you'll have to wait for, or until you ask. But can I attach something in a PM, cuz I can't find it...

Cebei
08-10-2006, 18:01
I bought a DVD with tons of music and videos of the reconstructed modern band when I was vacationing in Istanbul this summer. Perhaps we could use that too.

Oh yeah! That will be very useful. :2thumbsup:

There are different janissary songs for mobilization, defence, attack, victory etc... oh man, I can't wait to see the janissary band incorporated into the game. That will be crazy! :2thumbsup:

Ignoramus
08-11-2006, 10:07
I tried picking a team, but the researchers didn't respond. What do I do?

kataphraktoi
08-11-2006, 15:05
:2thumbsup: Don't worry, because u have 6 months or so, thats plenty of time. Plus some members like Polak966 is researching not just Poland but contributing to other factions too so u'll see a lot of criss-crossing co-operation between researchers. :2thumbsup:

Cebei
08-11-2006, 18:26
I searched the archives for my previous work for Medmod series and found this.


SELJUK UNIT ROSTER (start-1299):

Seljuk Light Horse: The majority of Seljuk tribal cavalry were light cavalry armed with a composite bow. Up to 100 arrows might be carried in quivers, bow case and even in boots. Typical garb was a topcoat with a right over left flap. A variety of caps and turbans were worn.

- Armed with bows
- Increased arrow number
- Armored

Turcoman Light Horse: Turkoman auxiliaries made up the bulk of Seljuk armies. Turkomans were a Turkish nomadic group originating from Central Asia who, while hard to discipline, and who generally fought for plunder, were well regarded for their fierceness. They were armed with bow and javelins. They wore topcoats and black fur or felt caps. Turkomans are a quite versatile troop type. Turkomans light cavalry appear in Medieval Syrian, Fatimid, Ayyibid, Mamluk, Khwarizmain, Ikhanid, Timurid, Islamic Persian armies among others.

- Armed with javelins/bows
- Fast
- Poor morale

Askari: These cavalry were the personal troops, known as Askaris, of the Seljuk Sultan and/or the major emirs. Askaris were a full time force paid in cash or with use of land (the iqta'at). They wore armour of various eastern styles and were armed with light lance, bow, sword and shield.

- Armed with bows
- Armored
- Good attack
- Very good defence

Turcoman auxilliary: Due to increasing clashes with the Byzantine army, Seljuk state felt a need for infantry force to protect the cavalry. These Seljuk light foot soldiers are skirmishers, armed with javelins and short swords.

- Armed with javelins
- Good defence
- Poor morale

Turcoman auxilliary archers: Well this was nicely done in MM3.14 no need to alter.

Armenian HC: No need to change. But, I doubt if we should continue using it after 1299. I sense they turn into ordinary Ottoman Sipahi after 1300. Though this is FULLY open to criticisms.

OTTOMAN UNIT ROSTER (1299-1453):

Akinci (appears 1299) Akinci (or raider) cavalry wears a style of buff-leather armor originally introduced by the 13th century Mongols. The circular ear-pieces on his helmet are also of Mongol derivation, while his straight sword is typically Iranian.
- Armed with bow
- Good attack
- Good defence
- Fast

Turcoman Tribal Horseman: (ugrade of Seljuk –pre1299- Turcoman horse) Turcoman horse archers formed the bulk of early Ottoman armies. Most would have been unarmored or have only a leather-lamellar cuirass. Regiment’s leader also wears an iron helmet with an ample mail aventail.

- Armed with bow
- Fast
- Vulnerable to missiles

Ottoman Sipahi: I dont feel any need to alter the exact unit in the game.

Ottoman Baltaci: Now in MM3.14 this is brilliantly done. Its MTW translation is the Ottoman Infantry. It carried an axe and sword and also a large shield, but did not have any bows, so whoever suggested the removal of bows of Ottoman infantry, did very well. Features are the same. Baltaci; were used in assaulting fortifications, its axe could break wooden gates and the shield could protect the infantry from missiles.

Ottoman Deli: These horsemen were very light armored scouts. They were fast and the horses had tremendous stamina. Their job was to scout the battlefield or bring routers back for ransom.

- Their stats can be done the same as hobilars

Tatar cavalryman: (appears around 1400, bonus in Crimea) Tatar tribes from the Crimea who fought in traditional style as horse-archers, were the most effective cavalry in the Ottoman army. They wore iron skull cap under his fur hat, and a (probably) captured Russian mail and plate cuireass under his felt coat. Tatars were not “Ottoman” per-se and the inclusion of Tatars in an Ottoman army depended on the good relations of Ottoman sultan with the Tatar khan.

My research gave me no clue about a specific Armenian-type cavalry in the Ottoman army. They rather rode along Seljuk armies which was pre-1250 approximately.


Yaya infantry: (appears in 1326, bonus in Bulgaria) Yaya infantry looks similar to a 14th-15th century Turkish nomad, typical features being the segmented hat. As a foot soldier, he also has the laced gaiters of an Anatolian or Iranian peasant. Yaya infantry used crossbows (which was a Hungarian influence) and carried a small shield to protect himself from missles. He also has a sword which he can use to protect himself in melee.

- Armed with crossbow
- Shield protects from missle fire
- Good defence
- Fast

Nefer Janissary Infantry: (appears in 1360) Nefers are equipped with a bow and wears a fluted “turban-zirh”, chain mail helmet, and a mail hauberk beneath his coat. His sword is a European import suspended in a Middle Eastern manner. If I am not mistaken, in MM3.14 they got a bonus in Anatolia or Rum. They were traditionally bonusful in the Balkans, so I guess original Bulgaria bonus is more correct. These guys were raised from Christian provinces of Ottomans.

Features same with the Janissary infantry in the game

Zirhli Nefer: (appears 1413) Janissaries who wore full armor were simply known as Zirhli Nefer or ‘armored soldiers’. They were used as assault troops and formed part of the Serdengeçti or ‘head risker’ elite. They had highly decorated gilded helmet with a plume holder on the front, a flexible neck guard, a mail-plate cuirass and thigh and knee protections. His shield is a form adopted from the Ottomans’ Eastern European neighbours, while his tirpan staff has Italian influence.

Features same with the Janissary Heavy Infantry in the game PLUS disciplined, excellent morale and ignore all routers regardless of elite or not

Kesici Silahkarda Müsellem: (appears 1413) Janissary Assault squads also included archers, because the muskets took so long to reload. Kesici archers had longer range and better accuracy than ordinary archers and carried a crude wooden pavise to protect himself from missle fire.

- Features same with the Janissary Archers in the game PLUS a pavise and disciplined, excellent morale and ignore all routers

Yanici Silahkarda Müsellem: (appears in 1440, GAH You can only use them for 13 turns lol) Janissaries’ use of firearms and cannons has always been feared by Ottomans’ enemies. At first Janissaries, so proud of their neat appearance, disliked dirty guns but after witnessing their power in Hungarian wars they accepted the arquebus. Typical Ottoman matchlocks were longer and larger than those of the West and according to a French observer, Ottoman arquebusiers could shot from a great distance, even by holding arquebus with their one hand. Janissaries’ enemies also noted that Ottoman marksmen could shoot accurately by moonlight, while speed and accuracy of Ottoman musketry still amazed the Austrians until the late 17th century. They also carry swords for melee.

- Fast
- Disciplined
- Excellent morale
- Shoot poorly in bad weather
- Vulnerable to missiles
- Ignore all routers
- Good defence
- Missiles very good vs armor

P.S.: These guys were historically the pride of Janissaries and fuelled the expansion of Ottomans to a great degree. They could shoot a massive 80 gram bullets, piercing through 3-4 ranks of armored infantry. When you consider that these guys were trained from infancy, they could achieve extreme accuracy. So I think (keeping in mind that they can be used only for a little time frame of 13 turns 1440-1453) it wont be wrong to program them historically accurate.

Levents: (Appears 1410) Levents were Ottoman “marines”. They conducted amphibious operations like assaults on coastal fortifications and boarded ships. Their arquebuses enabled weakening an enemy formation before charging in with their tırpans. They were not Sultan’s slave soldiers and had relatively independent life, which made them inclined to running away when things go wrong.

- Very strong charge
- Very good attack
- Good defence
- Missiles very good vs armor
- Poor morale
P.S.: Their arquebuses should be weaker than Yanici silahkardas’ arquebuses.


Bostanci Havani: Janissary bostanci corps were responsible for siege warfare and developing extraordinary siege weaponry. This trench-mortar threw 2 grenades and was cocked and then fired by pulling two seperate chords. The grenades are not as destructive as the standard siege cannons, so should be used not against the castle walls but on those hiding behind them.

- Mortar firing two rounds at the same time

SELJUK RANKS AND TITLES:

Beylerbeyi: Commander-in-Chief
Emir’ul Ulema: Amir of the staff officers
Subasi: Commander of an army
Reis’ul Bahr: Naval commander
Khan or Atabey: Provincial ruler

OTTOMAN RANKS AND TITLES:

Yeniceri Agasi: Commander-in-Chief of the Janissaries
Basvezir: Grand Vizier
Reis’ul Bahr: Naval commander
Bashaseki Agasi: Personal bodyguard of the Sultan
Pasha or Wali: Provincial ruler
Mufti-al Kubra: Grand “Mufti”, the religious leader.
Defterdar: Finance Minister
SELJUK RULERS:

Suleiman ibn Kutalmish 1077-1086

Command: 5
Dread: 4
Piety: 4
Acumen: 1

Kilij Arslan I 1092-1107
Command: 7
Dread: 5
Piety: 4
Acumen: 3

Malik Shah I 1107-1116
Command: 3
Dread: 4
Piety: 2
Acumen: 4

Mas'ud 1116-1156
Command: 6
Dread: 6
Piety: 3
Acumen: 5

Kilij Arslan II 1156-1192
Command: 8
Dread: 9
Piety: 5
Acumen: 3
* Scant Mercy

Suleiman II 1196-1204

Command.: 5
Dread: 4
Piety: 3
Acumen: 3

Kilij Arslan III 1204-1205
Command: 8
Dread: 7
Piety: 6
Acumen: 6
*fine leader
*skilled attacker

Kay Kaus I 1210-1220

Command: 7
Dread: 2
Piety: 4
Acumen: 6
*fine leader
*irredeemably witty

Kay Kobadh I 1220-1237

Command: 5
Dread: 1
Piety: 7
Acumen: 8
*builder
*steward

OTTOMAN SULTANS:

1300 - 1326 Osman I (ruled from c. 1290)

Command: 7
Dread: 0
Piety: 7
Acumen: 4

- expert attacker
- fine leader
- mighty warrior

1326 - 1359 Orhan

Command: 7
Dread: 1
Piety: 7
Acumen: 3

- skilled attacker
- fine leader
- great warrior

1359 - 1389 Murad I

Command: 6
Dread: 0
Piety: 8
Acumen: 7

- Highly educated
- Skilled attacker
- Irredeemably witty

1389 - 1402 Bayezid I Yildirim

Command: 7
Dread: 2
Piety: 5
Acumen: 7

- Expert attacker
- Utterly fearless

1413 - 1421 Mehmed I Celebi

Command: 7
Dread: 0
Piety:6
Acumen:8

- Skilled attacker
- Highly educated

1421 - 1444 Murad II

Command: 9
Dread: 1
Piety: 7
Acumen: 5

- Educated
- Expert defender

1444 - 1446 Mehmed II, Fatih

Command: 9
Dread: 2
Piety: 8
Acumen: 9

- Expert assaulter
- Highly educated
- Irredeemably witty
- Mighty warrior


SELJUK HEROES

Amir Afsin (1064-1098) -Commander-
Loyalty: 8
Dread: 3
Piety: 4
Acumen: 4
Command: 7

Atsiz Uvakoglu (1102-1138) -Commander-
Loyalty: 8
Dread: 4
Piety: 6
Acumen: 5
Command: 8

Artuk Eksukoglu (1170-1204) -Commander-
Loyalty: 7
Dread:2
Piety: 3
Acumen: 4
Command: 7

Kasimmudevle Aksungur (1230-1266) -Commander-
Loyalty: 6
Dread: 4
Piety: 5
Acumen:2
Command: 8

OTTOMAN HEROES

Aleaddin Ali Bey (Osman and Orhan Gazi’s Vizier) (1300-59)
Loyalty: 9
Piety:5
Dread:2
Command:7
Acumen:8

Akcakoca (Orhan Gazi's famous commander) (1288-1353)
Loyalty: 9
Piety: 6
Dread: 5
Command: 8
Acumen: 2

Candarli Ali Pasa (Murad I and Bayezid I’s Vizier) (1359-1402)
Loyalty:9
Piety:6
Dread.:0
Command:6
Acumen: 8

Candarli Ibrahim Pasa (Mehmed I and Murat II’s Vizier)(1401-1444)
Loyalty:9
Piety: 7
Dread:1
Command:6
Acumen:7

Candarli Halil Pasa (Murat II and Mehmet II’s Vizier)(1410-1463)
Loyalty: 9
Piety:8
Dread:2
Command: 8
Acumen: 9

Yunus Emre (Alim) (Birth year not known - died 1321)
- Brought large amounts of people to Islamic faith by his poems and Islamic teachings. Still, his poems are widely known in modern Turkey.


MALE NAMES
- Afsin
- Akalp
- Akbatun
- Akcebe
- Akin
- Alpay
- Alp
- Atakan
- Ayhan
- Bahadir
- Balaban
- Balamir
- Barbaros
- Baris
- Barkin
- Barlas
- Bugra
- Bumin
- Cengiz
- Ceyhun
- Çaglar
- Çagri
- Daghan
- Dalokay
- Dinç
- Dogan
- Dursun
- Efekan
- Emre
- Erdogan
- Eren
- Ertugrul
- Görkem
- Gültekin
- Günhan
- Gürhan
- Hakan
- Ilgaz
- Iraz
- Ilhan
- Ilkay
- Kaan
- Kartal
- Ogün
- Oguz
- Okan
- Orbay
- Orçun
- Orhan
- Orkun
- Ökmen
- Önder
- Sancar
- Sargin
- Selçuk
- Sergen
- Serkan
- Sungur
- Tarkan
- Tayfun
- Timur
- Tolga
- Tugrul
- Tunca
- Turan
- Turgay
- Ugur
- Uygur

Heir name list (heirs have only Celebi secondary name)

Osman
Orhan
Murat
Bayezid
Mehmet
Selim
Süleyman
Cem
Mustafa

FEMALE NAMES

- Abakay
- Akay
- Alev
- Akhatun
- Asena
- Aypare
- Basak
- Birce
- Burçak
- Ceren
- Ceylan
- Deniz
- Dicle
- Ece
- Idil
- Ilbike
- Ipek
- Maral
- Oya
- Oylum
- Parla
- Pinar
- Selda
- Tuna



MALE SECONDARY NAMES ( “komutan”s list of secondary names)

- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Bey
- Çavus
- Çavus
- Çavus
- Çavus
- Çavus
- Çelebi
- Çelebi
- Çelebi
- Arslan
- Pasa
- Pasa
- Pasa
- Pasa
- Gazi
- Gazi
- Gazi
- Gazi
- Han
- Aga

Women secondary names

- Hatun
- Sultan
- Kadin

Tradable goods in Asia minor

Spices: saffron, cumin, ginger, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, mace, pepper, salt, and sugar.
Drugs: opium, balm of mithridate, arsenic, benjamin (the balsamic resin, benzion), mirobolani (an astringent plum-like fruit), and perfumes.
Textiles: silk (green, blue, red), crimson damask, crimson velvet, camlets, cotton, linens, carpets.
Foods: wheat, barley, millet, raisins, olive oil, oranges, lemons, rhubarb, wines (malmsey, madeira).
Dyes: Cochineal (red), indigo (blue).
Luxuries: gold dust, slaves, copper, quicksilver, coral, Chinese porcelain, Lemnian earth, precious stones, pearls, frankincense, sandalwood, alum, gum arabic, glass trinkets, mirrors, wallpaper, furs.

I was unable to find a precise division of these goods into the provinces. These are Ottoman tradable goods in Asia Minor, but the source does not deal with more precise assesment.

- Agriculture-wise the most fertile region under Ottoman rule was the Anatolia and the valley between Euphrates and Tigris. Rum, Nicaea, Anatolia and Lesser Armenia are high income provinces in general.

- All of the Asia Minor provinces have high risk of earthquake.

- Trebizond, Edessa and Nicaea are floodable areas.


Notes:

1) On who did what type of information on rulers go here for Seljuks link (http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0002/0002_16.htm)

and here for Ottomans: link (http://i-cias.com/e.o/ottomans_5.htm)

2) Although I know that none of these units will make it into the mod because of limited unit count, I put them here to present historical names of the existing units, and/or to create substitutes for will be extracted units.

Cebei
08-11-2006, 18:33
Though the above list can be enriched to a great deal. Also I know I need to provide some skeches to build unit graphics. Slowly...sloooowwlyy...:scastle:

kataphraktoi
08-12-2006, 06:33
Tradable goods in Asia minor

Spices: saffron, cumin, ginger, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, mace, pepper, salt, and sugar.
Drugs: opium, balm of mithridate, arsenic, benjamin (the balsamic resin, benzion), mirobolani (an astringent plum-like fruit), and perfumes.
Textiles: silk (green, blue, red), crimson damask, crimson velvet, camlets, cotton, linens, carpets.
Foods: wheat, barley, millet, raisins, olive oil, oranges, lemons, rhubarb, wines (malmsey, madeira).
Dyes: Cochineal (red), indigo (blue).
Luxuries: gold dust, slaves, copper, quicksilver, coral, Chinese porcelain, Lemnian earth, precious stones, pearls, frankincense, sandalwood, alum, gum arabic, glass trinkets, mirrors, wallpaper, furs.

I was unable to find a precise division of these goods into the provinces. These are Ottoman tradable goods in Asia Minor, but the source does not deal with more precise assesment.

- Agriculture-wise the most fertile region under Ottoman rule was the Anatolia and the valley between Euphrates and Tigris. Rum, Nicaea, Anatolia and Lesser Armenia are high income provinces in general.

- All of the Asia Minor provinces have high risk of earthquake.

- Trebizond, Edessa and Nicaea are floodable areas.

Lol, I hope some of those trade goods were existing when Byzantium had Anatolia :2thumbsup:

Wraithdt and I selected the Turks as a effort for concepts. :D

Hey guys, I'm going to release a new update of the research template soon.

PM ur email addresses

kataphraktoi
08-12-2006, 06:48
OFFICIAL MTR ANNOUNCEMENT!!

THE 2006 MISS MEDIEVAL CONTEST!!

Just like Miss Universe, we have the medieval version!!

All contestants from:
1) Christen-dom
2) Dar-al-Islam
3) Pagan-dom

will compete for the prestigious title of "Miss Medieval"

Our concept artists/skinners/modellers/anyone in the MTR is asked to submit a contestant for the Miss Medieval Contest.

Requirements:
1) A rendered picture (no photographs back then :D) of the contestant, no nudity!! Thats sinfully punishable by death!!...except maybe if ur from Pagan-dom but its still punishable by death. Make it modest and make it medieval :2thumbsup: Send as many entries as possible.

2) A personality profile including the following biodata -
Age:
Height:
Weight:
Piety level out of 10:
Likes:
Dislikes:

3) Provide answers to the following questions:
a) If I was Miss Medieval I would like to use my influence to:
b) If there was one thing I wish for in the world it would be:
c) If I was to be a queen of a state, it would be:
d) If I was a man, the kind of soldier I'd be would be a:

SaberHRE
08-12-2006, 13:06
First of all, you guys are Gods!

i think this project, has a load of potential, and with the new possibilites of M2TW, and the talend of the MTR, the mod can be something Big and Bad.

But first of all some comments of mine.

You guys should increase the number of provinces in England and perhaps France. If M2TW is still going to rely on 1 city/castle per province, than this is something you should reconsider.

Why is "Rus" a united Empire? I'm not too familiar with Russian history, but wasn't there division since death of Yaroslav? I understand, that the Rurikids during this period, were prety close with each other but the unity implied is somewhat dangerous.

beauchamp
08-12-2006, 14:27
Saweet Idea kataphractoi! Ill try my best to bring a hottie from Al-Maghrib!

Cadmus
08-12-2006, 15:39
In response to SaberHRE: Well, yes, there was division, but the major events of this breaking happened just after 1066, and at the end of 1066, when Vseslav of Polotsk first attacked Novgorod, and then went on to strike at the heart, Kiev, and the surrounding principalities. With that, the Rus faction was also attacked by the Polovtsi to the south (better known as the Cumans I suppose).

You could see that it is difficult to make one faction out of the heirs of Yaroslav the Wise, but at this time, in 1066, it's still acceptable to make one Rus faction. But I see Polotsk already split from this. Iziaslav, the Grand Prince then, with his brothers still united against Vseslav, so you see there was still a bond. But they were beaten very badly by Vseslav, who even managed to conquer Kiev, but was then 'betrayed' and put in chains.

In the beginning of the 12th century, Vladimir Monomakh managed to stabilise everything to a certain level, but after that we have the Mongols coming, and you know what then happened. Only Novgorod, which by then had become a Republic governed by the Vetche, managed to avoid the greater damage done to the rest of ye old Rus.

kataphraktoi
08-12-2006, 16:47
By the way Sabre is a member of MTR:2thumbsup:
We've recieved many members that I keep forgetting out team registars!!
I happened to chat to another new member, he is a skinner/modeller.
We also have Madtao from TWC, another talented skinner/modeller.


You guys should increase the number of provinces in England and perhaps France. If M2TW is still going to rely on 1 city/castle per province, than this is something you should reconsider.

Why is "Rus" a united Empire? I'm not too familiar with Russian history, but wasn't there division since death of Yaroslav? I understand, that the Rurikids during this period, were prety close with each other but the unity implied is somewhat dangerous

We're working with a province limit of 199 like RTW. But I am always looking to add more provinces if possible.

Rus is not united in 1066, it only has the "facade" of appearing united. IN the game, the Rus is internally UNstable. A plyer will find that this facade of unity breaks down after a couple of turns. Remembber, this starts as an internal matter before it becomes a battle between the principality states!!

beauchamp
08-12-2006, 17:15
https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/284/almoravidqd5.gif (https://imageshack.us)

Theirs the major cities of my sphere of reasearch, next Ill do maps of the nations and timeperiods.

Cadmus
08-12-2006, 18:03
So you are gonna split them? For I have found numerous sources, including the Primary Chronicle, that during the debacle with Vseslav, they were nog broken yet, and all the principalities were ruled of Iziaslav, Sviatoslav, Vsevolod (the three brothers) or their children.

But I gather you want to make it a bit more fun, and challenging for the player to truly unite and stabilise the region... I will confide in the thought that everything we know from the past, out of the sources we have, is not to be trusted 100%, so I'll concur.

kataphraktoi
08-13-2006, 08:21
Ive added another province for the Moors so that Sijilmassi has its own province, will release new map soon.

To Cadmus,
Rus will have all its territories as upon the death of Yaroslav but within a few years of playing from the year 1066, the player will find his Rus state shattered by internal rebellions. This is where we intend the "real" breakup of the Kievn Rus into smaller priincipalities.

So no, they won't be split :2thumbsup:

DukeofSerbia
08-13-2006, 09:44
Are we talking about Branicevo - Pomoravlje? If so, yes I did mispell it :laugh4
I only noticed it after I saved it as a gif file. And also Beligrad, I spelt it as Beligread...bad!


I will send you e-mail and write what is wrong spelled. Cumans control some wrong provinces, according to the new map (revision 3, I think). And location of Ragusa is again wrong.



And starting date is... 1066? Which is very good. There is strife amongst the heirs of the Rus


According to Primary Chronicle (Повесть временных лет) in 1067 was war between Vseslav (son of Bryatchislavov) and three Yaroslavitch: Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod.

SaberHRE
08-13-2006, 12:11
Holy Roman Empire

1066(Early)

Ruler: Henry IV

Henry IV is perhaps best known for his fight against Hilberand of Rome aka Gregory VII "The mad man of Canossa :P". It was worth however to understand who he really was. Born into the Salian(or sometimes known as Franconian) dynasty he was a product of his age, not concious of the changes occuring in his times. Like his father Henry IV tried to assume a strong imperial rule, for many of his subjects a tyrannical and absolute rule.
His policies of extending the royal domain and strengthening the royal rights in particular were disliked by the Saxon freemen. Germany at the time was no feudal state. It was based upon local traditions and the new factor: feudalism. The great dukes were sometimes considered leaders of tribal states, known as stem duchies. All of Henry's subjects being freemen, serfdom being at it's infancy evolved only till Conrad III.

In creating a MTR Henry IV character we might consider few things:

a good command: around 5
a good acumen: 5-6
a weak/shattered influence: 3
a small piety: 1-3

Important generals:

Anti-imperial camp:

Magnus Billung

Magnus from the mighty saxon Billung clan is the son of Ordulf, current duke of Saxony. Like most of his subjects he opposes Henry's abbortive policies and leads an rebellion with saxon insurgents known as the "Saxon revolt". A man of rather mediocre military knowledge me makes it up by having a lot of support from his subjects(so this could be represented by giving him a big army, which will revolt with him).

weak command: 1-2
average acumen: 3-4
good piety: 4-6
very low loyalty

Otto von Nordheim

Otto von Nordheim is a very interesting character, whose personalities is much weaved by legends. He is like Magnus a Saxon, coming from the influential Nordheim clan. Bestowed with the Duchy of Bavaria by the queen-mother Agnes, he enjoys a good reputation, which is shattered when he joins the rebellion with his fellow Saxons. He does not receive support from his stem Duchy, having relied most on his Saxon estates. As a leader he is well respected, for both courage and military prowess.

very good command: 5-6
appalling acumen: 1
average piety: 3-4
low loyalty

traits:
some sort of courage and military skill traits

Fine leader
Chivalrous(i bet there is going to be such a trait :D)

Rudolph von Rheinfelden

Perhaps the most senior leader of the anti-imperial camp. Duke of Swabia and imperial magister of Burgundy. Probably the most powerful man in the Empire. At first he is a supporter of Henry, sending his Swabians many times into Thuringia and Saxony, however when the investiture conflict takes places he shows his true face by abandoning Henry, and in consequence is chosen anti-King. He receives support from most of his lands and those of Imperial Burgundy(dynasties such as Longwy, Salm). He is a skilled and trusted leader(he died in bitter close-combat fight, after loosing most companions and his right arm!:dizzy2:)

Lesser magnates of Anti-imperial camp:
Hermann von Salm
Henry of Luxembourg
Egbert of Meissen
Hartwig von Magdeburg, bishop
Burchard von Halberstadt, bishop

Imperial Camp

Frederich von Hohenstaufen

A man of rather obscure or ambigious origin. He was a Swabian noble who remained loyal to Henry IV, and in recognition was rewarded with the Emperor's daughter's hand and the duchy of Swabia.

Henry of Ostmark, also known as Henry von Wettin
A man like Frederich of rather obscure origin when compared to great magnates of anti-imperial camp. He was the son of Dedo, and soon margrave of Lusatia and of Ostmark(Austria, which exchanged hands few times between Bohemians, Wettins and Babenbergs).

Wracislaw of Bohemia
Probably the most successful Bohemian King and most senior leader to imperial camp. Brave, wise, handsome he is the Roland of his age. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, though he was rather mildly rewarded for his services. More to that he was a pious and humble man. His relations were cooled down only when the Emperor broke the promises of Lusatia and Ostmark.

I will try to make a list of units soon

Randarkmaan
08-13-2006, 19:12
I'll start doing some real work on the military units when I get home (Will have what I need to do that then). I will also perhaps determine which cities/ports should be in each province, I'll order some more books while here so I can manage the rest as well.
Should I also perhaps do things for Syria? Just wondering because both the Ayyubids and the Mamluks controlled Syria (as well as Jazirah) and the Fatimids controlled parts of Syria...

SaberHRE
08-13-2006, 19:51
I have an important question regarding gameplay.

We all rememer the squalor in RTW, but not all of us know how to do deal with it. I'm tired of slaughtering my cities every time they reach a big population, this is wrong. In Middle Ages, slaughter of a city was considered a great offence, and such offence was not quickly forgotten. Just take the Mongols who often slaughtered people. There was some sort of prayer of German peasants made in 13th century which made it well into mid 14th century "Lord save us from the wraths of the Tatars".

Further, "city" revolts or in general revolts took place rather rarely. In a city of 10000, if 7000 people are homeless beggars nobody cared, and nobody revolted. Two reasons, it was a rule, and reason two they did not have weapos because there beggars.

My point being in general is that, we should seriously limit the influence of squalor on "rebel mood"(if CA still leaves the squalor system just like it is in RTW).

beauchamp
08-13-2006, 21:06
Thanks Kataphractoi, I was going to suggest that Sijilimasa get its own province.

Publius
08-13-2006, 21:08
All hail the first contestant to Miss Medieval!

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5923/misscz9.jpg
- If I was Miss Medieval I would like to use my influence to: Get a very rich (and very old) husband, with lots of power and no male heirs whatsoever.
- If there was one thing I wish for in the world it would be: One of those nifty Pope hats – they look very stylish.
- If I was to be a queen of a state, it would be: A state of chaos
- If I was a man, the kind of soldier I'd be would be: the kind of soldier that would do everything and anything for Miss Medieval, willing to lay down his life for her at a moments notice and give her any spoils of war he may come across. In essence, be a role model which all the other soldiers could follow.

kataphraktoi
08-14-2006, 04:50
@ SabreHRE

Don't post research information on factions here, but keep it in a research template like this.

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/ResearchTemplate.doc

:2thumbsup:

It saves us a lot of space here for discussion.

@DukeofSerbia
I think Cadmus was earlier expressing how he was glad that the date was 1066 and not after because of the conflict in 1067.

And yes, i did notice the wrong location of Ragusa. :2thumbsup:


I'll start doing some real work on the military units when I get home (Will have what I need to do that then). I will also perhaps determine which cities/ports should be in each province, I'll order some more books while here so I can manage the rest as well.
Should I also perhaps do things for Syria? Just wondering because both the Ayyubids and the Mamluks controlled Syria (as well as Jazirah) and the Fatimids controlled parts of Syria...

That should be fine, Cebei's information on Anatolia overlaps with mine, but thats fine.

@Publius, definitely suitable for heretic burning if not a sacrificial pyre :laugh4:

kataphraktoi
08-14-2006, 05:33
HASHASHIN!!! :2thumbsup:

https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6527/hashishinmonosmlyy2.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hashishinmonosmlyy2.jpg)

Hi one and all, I have another announcement.

Wraithdt, he of the Gothic MAA and Hashashin fame has volunteered to do the loading screens for MTR:AOA, he has asked me to compile a list of possible loading screen depictions. I urged MTR members and other org members to suggest their own top 5 loading screen subjects.

Eg. Top 5 selections:
1) Battle of Manzikert
2) Saladin on horseback in the sunset
3) A scene from the 100 years war
4) Genghis Khan on horseback
5) The Hagia Sophia

Remember, not all suggestions listed will be depicted...so to make sure your suggestion has a good chance of being depicted, provide interesting descriptions.

I will compile all suggestions into a document and send it to Wraithdt for him to peruse at leisure.

Publius
08-14-2006, 05:59
1) French knights trudging through mud (and of course dying) at Agincourt
2) Good shot of the artillery at work (impact on walls might be good)
3) Scene from the inquisition (not sure how you would do it, but perhaps dungeon with instruments of torture on walls, and then some shadows projected onto the walls of people?)
4) Heretics burnt at the stake
5) Pope sitting in the Vatican (probably doing something, say ordering a war or blessing kneeling knights or something)

polak966
08-14-2006, 07:46
1) janissaries storming the walls of const.
2) the mongol cav charging polish cav at the battle of liegnitz with henryk pobozny's head on a pike.
3) a shot of alp-arslan accompanied by possibly 2 generals standing on a lage hill overlooking the marching byz. army (thisd would count as manzikert)
4) battle of grunwald (tannenberg)
5) teutonic knights "converting" prussians

Randarkmaan
08-14-2006, 09:03
1) Crusaders breaking into Jerusalem (going berserk)
2) A picture of the siege engines bombarding the walls of Acre in 1291 (I think the Mamluks built over 80 counter-weight mangonels for that battle, some of them being the largest ever built, as well as a large number of smaller engines for providing covering fire
3) A picture from the Alibegensian Crusade, preferably depicting the papal legate (don't remember his name) telling that knight (don't remember his name :P) "Kill them all, God will know his own"
4) Muslim clerics attempting to convert Templars after the battle of Hattin (those who did not convert were immediately executed)
5) The last grandmaster of the Templars burnt at the stake

Cadmus
08-14-2006, 10:26
I know the title is Total War, but as 'passive' loading screens:

- A screenshot of a merchant cart riding up to a gate (you remember that shot in Kingdom of Heaven, when Balian arrived at Jerusalem, with the city bristling with people.

- A screenshot of one of the Almohad? castles overlooking a plain with tents of the christians (some sort of 'plain'watch...), this on the Iberian Peninsula.

- Though they are again not in, a screenshot of a fleet of vessels, like the ones they used in the Age of Exploring, so with a Spanish flag preferable.

- A screenshot of a view over a city (that is being besieged) wall, looking over the encampment of the enemy, with the trebuchets, the palisades, the numerous tents. When this is happening can be chosen, either before the battle (with everyone is preparing, all in formation, having the leader ride in front of them), during the battle (well, here I don't have to draw you a sketch), or after (when they are carrying away the dead and trying to heal the wounded, while also fixing the machinery and preparing for the nexy assault).

SaberHRE
08-14-2006, 14:54
1) Charge of Emperor Constantine during seige of Constantinople.
2) Bannockburn :viking:
3) Genghis Khan on horse
4) Saladin sparing some crusaders
5) Third Crusade Arrival with two rivals Lionheart and Auguste

Randarkmaan
08-14-2006, 16:22
Ah just one I thought of: Someone being knighted!

Orda Khan
08-14-2006, 16:41
Much as I like the idea of Chingis Khan on horseback as a loading screen, I doubt any Mongol on horseback would appeal to many. IMO the choice should come from a battle scene or similar

..........Orda

wraithdt
08-15-2006, 01:13
Whoah......so many ideas, so little time. Excuse me while I go clone myself.


Seriously, why did I ever agree to do this?:sweatdrop:

~;)

polak966
08-15-2006, 06:19
well you dont have to all of them
but itd be nice if every faction was represent...

Ringeck
08-15-2006, 10:06
Most factions should be represented. Therefore I present a list of different concepts per faction!

Also, battle pictures we can lift out of the engine, scenes we cannot.

Scottish:
Robert the Bruce attacking Robert de Comyn before the high altar of the Greyfriars Monastery. Or Bruce being crowned king by Isabellla MacDuff at Scone (no stone, though). A battle would have to be Bannockburn

England (Normans): Richard I besieging a castle (his favorite activity) or John signing the Magna Carta. Battle would have to be Agincourt (best known and all).

Danes: A large fleet of longships entering York in 1069. Or Margaret I being elected "Sovereign Lady and Ruler" by the swedish nobility. Battle would almost certainly have to be Lyndanisse, complete with mythological flag falling from the skies.

Duchy of Southern Italy: Robert Guiscard and his Normans landing at night in Messina. Or Roger II being crowned in Palermo. Battle would have to be Dyrrachium.

Papal States: The pope in his pope hat. More spesifically, Gregory VII and Emperor Henry IV outside the walls of Canossa. No battle, this event is so symbolically laden (although politically, it could be considered a loss) that it is a natural screen for the papacy.

HRE: The Concordat of Worms: Calixtus II and Henry V trying to bury the Investiture Conflict with a treaty. Or a Reichtag (anyone, really) in session, electing an emperor. Battle: Monte Porzio.

Poland: Władysław I doing something impressive, like opening the Academia Cracoviensis or overseeing th construction of a castle. Or some sort of germanization image; settlers building townships, perhaps. Battle; Tannenberg, what else.

Rus: A veche council assembling in a russian city. Or Vladimir Monomach entering Kiev in 1113 to the greeting of a jubilant populace. Battle: The Kievan/Chernigovian army defeating Quipchak/Polovtsii/Cumans.

France: A great gothic cathedral, such as the Notre-Dame de Paris. Jeanne d'Arc rallying the troops, or Charles VII entering Reims for his coronation. Battle: Bouvines or Patay.


Crown of Aragon: Peter III landing at Trapani with his army or Almogàvere mercenaries gathering for a naval campaign, with the aragonese fleet off the coast. Battle: The fall of Valencia.

Leon-Castile: Alfonose VI taking possesion of Toledo in 1085. Castilian noble gathering tribute from a muslim taifa king. Battle: Las Navas des Tolosa, of course.


Moorish Sultanate: Almoravid Yusuf ibn Tashfin founding Marrakesh, or Ibn Tumart preaching in north Africa. Battle: Alarcos.

Egyptian Sultanate: The Fatimid caliph in his throne room, "guarded" by his turkish bodyguard minders. Saladin in hero-positure. Battle: Hattin

Turkish Sultanate: Nizam al-Mulk establishing the Nizamiyyah academy, or Mehmed II entering Constantinople. Battle: Manzikert, or a scene from the siege of Constantinople.

Romaion (Byzantines): The Land Walls of Constantinople or (any) Emperor at the Hippodrome. Battle: one of the Komnenoi restoration - Levounion or Myriocephalum would be coolest.

Serbs: Sava being made archbishop of autonomous Serbia in 1219. Or Tzar Stefan Dusan presenting his Code. Battle: Kosovo Polje. A defeat, but one so integrated into the serbian national character that it almost has to be there.


Venice: The Arsenale building war galleys, or a regatta in the canals of Venice. Battle: The fall of Constantinople, with the venetians breaking into the city from the sea-side.

Hungary: Andrew II issuing the Golden Bull of 1222. Louis I modernizing Hungary (building the university of Pest or something like that). Battle: Marchfeld or Hodmezo

Mongols: The Golden Tent at Sarai, or Baghdad being sacked. Battle: Köse Dag or Mohi

Georgia-Sakartvelo: David IV entering Tblisi, or the fortress of Khertvisi. Battle: Shamkor

Cumans/Qipchaqs: A group of Qiuipchaq noblemen listening to a hungarian priest preaching, the priest carrying a copy of the Codex Cumanicus. Or a Quipchaq army of steppe horsemen traversing an open plain. Battle: Stugna River

kataphraktoi
08-15-2006, 14:59
:laugh4: New updated Research Template :2thumbsup:
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/ResearchTemplate.doc

Attention:

FAENARIS
SABREHRE
CUTEPUPPY

You guys identified HRE as the faction you'd like to research, well, that makes you guys a team! :2thumbsup: Be sure to co-operate on the template and share the load :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: PM each other or something.

Cadmus
08-15-2006, 15:20
Wraithdt, not to dampen your spirit even more, but on the twcenter forum they also asked for suggestions for these backgrounds.. :juggle2:

Zastrow
08-15-2006, 15:41
Why the name Age of Ambition? How is this age any more Ambitious than any other age? :inquisitive:

Regardless the campaign map setup looks good, and no Amurica, excellent. :2thumbsup:

DukeofSerbia
08-15-2006, 18:31
Serbs: Sava being made archbishop of autonomous Serbia in 1219.


Autonomous Serbia?!:dizzy2: You mean autocephalous Sebian Orthodox Church under name "Archbishopry of Žiča".



Or Tzar Stefan Dusan presenting his Code.


Better is the coronation of Stefan Dušan became Emperor of Serbs and Romans.



Battle: Kosovo Polje. A defeat, but one so integrated into the serbian national character that it almost has to be there.


Defeat? No, it wasn't. The most Serbian historians believe in that,:wall: but facts said something else. The problem is that Ottomans ruled so long over Serbs that they introduced their version of battle where they are clear winner.

SaberHRE
08-15-2006, 19:02
:laugh4: New updated Research Template :2thumbsup:
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/ResearchTemplate.doc

Attention:

FAENARIS
SABREHRE
CUTEPUPPY

You guys identified HRE as the faction you'd like to research, well, that makes you guys a team! :2thumbsup: Be sure to co-operate on the template and share the load :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: PM each other or something.

No worries, i'm currently discussing provinces with Cutepuppy, and we're deciding on what parts each of us are going to concentrate.

Is Faenaris registered?

Faenaris
08-15-2006, 21:34
Hiya all. :)

Yes, I'm registered, but I think there is a small misunderstanding. I can do some research for the Teutonic Order, England and the Crusades. I have almost no info about the HRE. :s

Still, if you guys really want me to help out, I'll go to the bookstore when I have some time and see what I can find regarding the HRE.

Also, as I have said to Kataphraktoi, I'm currently not available for heavy duty research (I got exams), but I am back in action around middle of September.

Ringeck
08-16-2006, 00:34
Autonomous Serbia?!:dizzy2: You mean autocephalous Sebian Orthodox Church under name "Archbishopry of Žiča".

Serbia as an autonomous wing of the orthodox church, yes.



Better is the coronation of Stefan Dušan became Emperor of Serbs and Romans.


Trying to cut back on the coronations. Practically every nation has a famous one in their history.



Defeat? No, it wasn't. The most Serbian historians believe in that,:wall: but facts said something else. The problem is that Ottomans ruled so long over Serbs that they introduced their version of battle where they are clear winner.

Er. That's a new one. Not only do most Serbian historians believe that, but most other historians do as well. What exactly do you mean?

kataphraktoi
08-16-2006, 04:04
Why the name Age of Ambition? How is this age any more Ambitious than any other age?

Because the medieval period lays the foundation for much of what's happening in the modern era. Plus the individuals in this period were more influential than in the dark ages were they not? Through their ambition, they created history.

Saladin and his wars against the Crusades.
The Battle of Hastings which changed England more than any other period prior to it - thanks to Willaim the COnqueror.
The Battle of Manzikert paving the way for the Ottomans
The Church Schism and the sack of Constantinople leading to the fractured relations in Church we had today because of ambitious Church leaders.
The worldwide ambition of Genghis Khan which unleashed on the most cataclysmic periods in history.
Same with Timurlane.
etc, etc, etc....

So really, Age of Ambition is a cumulative aggregate of the activity in this period and the individuals who shaped it.

Moreover, considering our campaign map...players with ambition can write their own history.

Cadmus
08-16-2006, 09:09
Ah well, I have a question about the campaign map. I know you want to include as many provinces as possible, but what concerns the Rus, there's even a province that I should divide amongst its neighbours. This is the Principality (or Duchy) of Nizhny-Novgorod, of which the boundaries didn't come into effect until say 1096, so about 30 years past our starting date. But if you want to include it...
And other provinces just had different names, so no sweat there.

Btw, is there anything you'll be needing already from the template?

kataphraktoi
08-16-2006, 09:20
Ah well, I have a question about the campaign map. I know you want to include as many provinces as possible, but what concerns the Rus, there's even a province that I should divide amongst its neighbours. This is the Principality (or Duchy) of Nizhny-Novgorod, of which the boundaries didn't come into effect until say 1096, so about 30 years past our starting date. But if you want to include it...
And other provinces just had different names, so no sweat there.

Btw, is there anything you'll be needing already from the template?

Ah, I'm glad someone commented on the Rus provinces.

I'm no expert on Rus history, so I based my borders on what could happen in the future concerning these borders which I lifted out from Rus history books in the time when Rus had already broken up and I used the borders.

However, I would not mind if u submitted changes to borders. Send me a map with the proposed changes :2thumbsup:

ANd with the names too. :2thumbsup:

Plus, no, I wont be needing anything from the templates. Has everyone got the new template?

Just a note, you can add anything which wasn't mentioned in the template.

Cadmus
08-16-2006, 09:39
Well, as the historian for these Rus barbarians, it's only logical that I intervene ay :book:
But how do I send you the map, doesn't work with PM (because I'm still junior member my guess)

DukeofSerbia
08-16-2006, 11:50
Serbia as an autonomous wing of the orthodox church, yes.


Do you know difference between autocephalous and autonomous Church?:dizzy2: Serbian Church then became autocephaluos, not autonomus.



Er. That's a new one. Not only do most Serbian historians believe that, but most other historians do as well. What exactly do you mean?

Later about that.

Ringeck
08-16-2006, 12:46
Send me a PM about the Kosovo Polje thing, I don't think this thread should contain too much historical debate.


Do you know difference between autocephalous and autonomous Church?:dizzy2: Serbian Church then became autocephaluos, not autonomus.

I believe the term means that the head archbishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop and that the church is ruled by itself, still remaining in communion with the rest of orthodoxy but is self-governing? Is there a rank called autonomous? I was using autonomous as it is commonly used in the english language for organizations - self-governing, not subject to outside authority. My only good treatice on serbian medieval history is Durhams old 1989 book, so there might be some holes in my knowledge (as I suspect there is in your medieval scandinavian history :book: ).

kataphraktoi
08-16-2006, 15:16
Well, as the historian for these Rus barbarians, it's only logical that I intervene ay
But how do I send you the map, doesn't work with PM (because I'm still junior member my guess)

email me.

Fuzzwuzznuzz @ hot mail . com

And remember guys, there is 199 province we're working with.

We have 198 :laugh4: But I'm leaving the last one empty.

Romanus
08-16-2006, 15:16
A rank called autonomous? If there was such a rank either you would be a heretic or a patriarch.;p

kataphraktoi
08-16-2006, 18:02
A rank called autonomous? If there was such a rank either you would be a heretic or a patriarch.;p

The Orthodox Christians were much more pragmatic, or should I say, the Byzantine Emperors. Basil II himself downgraded the Patriarchate of Ochrid to an Archbishopric and made it Autonomous from the Patriarch of Constantinople.

I guess it would be the Catholics who would go apopletic at the rank. :laugh4:

kataphraktoi
08-16-2006, 20:32
Hey guys, I was thinking about the two-option system for tech trees as mentioned by CA's developers of choosing either tech tree that emphasises military or revenue raising.

I think this is a great idea, but even greater when modding it!!

Here is an example of what I've been for the Byzantines concerning the two-option system and how it will be re-modded for the MTR:AOA. This is intended to get team members thinking of gameplay features.

Byzantine players will come across the Tagmatic and Thematic military systems which existed in the time period. Each system will be represented by the tech tree options. However instead of dividing between military potential and revenue potential, its more a matter of choosing which influence you want in a particular province. Do you wish for a Military influence or a Central Bureacratic influence. Its not a matter of getting better military units from one option, but a matter of what you WANT from that tech tree option.

Here's the rundown of how it works and what can be done. Lets call the tech tree option for those who favour Military influence the "Strategos" option and those that favour the Central Bureacracy influence the "CB" option.

The Strategos option widens a province's military potential; develops logistical capability; shapes religious character; influences economic structure predominantly agricultural and its access to military technology.

IN a nutshell:
Allows greater variety and choice of military units from elite to levies but limited choices for other types of units. Suited to strategic and economically weak provinces. This favours the aristocratic military families' prestige and power. Buildings to tend to lower order, loyalty and hence, keep an eye on as Emperor.

Types of units trainable/recruitable:
Provincial Tagmata
Thematic Soldiers
Provincial Monks
Provincial Ascetics

Types of buildings:
Estates - Military Aristocracy farming estates, rich farming holdings
Lord's Castle - Home of aristocratic military families, access to elite tagmatic soldiers
Military Office - holds registers of thematic soldiers, needed for thematic recruitment
Stables/Horse Farms
Barracks
Archery
Engineers - Artillery
Engineering - allows access to improved fortifications, emphasis on castles and forts
Military warehouse - used for storing army's supplies, reduces civilian happiness
Blacksmith/Foundary/Arms factory - where soldiers buy weapons and improved weapons, armour, etc, etc...also needed for armoured horses
Endowed Monasteries
Votive Shrines
Town Markets - small markets

The CB option deepens a province's bureacratic structure with emphasis on revenue extraction but in the process allows for wider options for public amenities and services; influences economic structure predominantly cash and trade based; ability to construct monuments and other structures that reflect imperial power and other structures which allow a deeply bureacratic character to take place.

In a nutshell:
Limited choice of military units but they are elite and professional soldiery. Good structure for revenue extraction and allows develop of a city's urban character through amenities, services, monuments and other civilian structures. This favours the Emperor's power and prestige. Tned to improve civic pride, improve wealth, sophistication and knowledge.

Types of units:
Imperial Tagmata
Foreign Mercenaries
Naval forces
Spies
Court Spies
Patriarchs
Archbishops
Bishops
Priests
Monks
Ascetics
Diplomats
Assasins
Vigiles - police forces, not the Tagmatic unit.

Types of buildings/structures:
University
Imperial Churches - various level of churches, determined by number of domes :laugh4:
Relic Shrines
Imperial Monasteries
Engineers - Artillery
Engineers - Fortification, emphasis on stronger, taller walls rather than castles
Military Naval facilities
Trade Merchant facilities
Forums - large markets, can be improved to larger market complexes
Monuments - Pillars, statues, religious devotional pieces like the Chalke
Baths/Hygience facilities
Senate House - only for Constantinople, improves order
Silk Factory - under strict government supervision, in specified areas only like Athens, Corinth, Thessalonica, Antioch and Constantinople and in other historical areas where possible.
Treasury - improves taxation ability
Intelligience Office - training for spies and intelligience gathering
Domestic Office - internal security of empire and its cities\
Taxation facilities - collects taxes on trade, goods in kind, etc, etc
Muslim Quarter - Small section for Muslim traders/merchants, includes a mosque but does not attract converts, reduces happiness, improves trade revenue
Latin Quarter - Medium to Large section for Latin traders/merchants/citizens, includes Latin churches, does not attract converts, reduces happiness, improves trade, does not attract converts, improvces trade and revenue, reduces happiness
Hippodrome
Jewish Quarter - Small quarter for Jewish traders/merchants/citizens

Note: Everything here are working ideas and not finalised. So for all researchers keep in mind ideas for gameplay, don't post all ideas on it here!! Maybe some ideas for discussions, but not a lot!! This is just an example.

beauchamp
08-16-2006, 20:49
hmm, interesting. I think that would work well for Al-Maghrib as well, seeing that in Cordova their were all sorts of quarters devoted to Christians and Jews and they had separate banks and places of worship.

Cadmus
08-16-2006, 21:40
Well, I was thinking exactly the same thing at work today, but with the Rus in mind.
Your bureaucratic institution would be my Veche, the more military associated rule would be the Prince, but more focused on being Tsar, a despot, the later form of absolute ruler.
My problem is, however, if you allow for every province to choose between one of these formulae, or that one of them is then a necessity for all provinces....

kataphraktoi
08-17-2006, 05:20
My problem is, however, if you allow for every province to choose between one of these formulae, or that one of them is then a necessity for all provinces....

Actually, the Byzantine system I devised is supposed to used as a combination, its not logical to choose one system for the whole empire, thats why I devised it as such that a player would actually utilise both systems depending on which province, and as I said before, this system is for the Byzantines which means you guys will have to come up wth tech trees unique to your own factions utilising the two-option system. It was great fun thinking it over. :2thumbsup:

Example:
With Constantinople in 1066, the CB structure is definitely in place there, but for Anatolian provinces, its more suited to the Strategos structure. THis reflects the tension between the military families and the bureacratic party in the capital. So the empire is a combination of both systems.

Hmmm, for the Rus, I think perhaps we do the following:

Using a generic lets call one structure the "Grand Prince" structure and the "Principality" structure.

GP structure emphasises the centrality and unity of Rus rule, by which many things would be standardised, while a "P" structure allows a player to localise many units and buildings.

Just a suggestion, but I'll leave it to you Cadmus to amaze us with ur ideas!!

Does anyone use IRC?

Publius
08-17-2006, 07:05
Signature
https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6688/mediorghz2.jpg

Also made a twc version (only difference being background color so it blends in). I posted that one, for obvious reasons, at twc

Randarkmaan
08-17-2006, 11:16
Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

Randarkmaan
08-17-2006, 12:09
- A screenshot of one of the Almohad? castles overlooking a plain with tents of the christians (some sort of 'plain'watch...), this on the Iberian Peninsula.

Well, it's not an Almohad castle but one 'passive' loading screen you could have could be the Moorish castle at Guadalest, I was there yesterday, it was counted as impregnable until it was taken by some Spanish guy with a large army.

Cadmus
08-17-2006, 12:14
@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...


And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

Kataphraktoi, you said about IRC, I don't have that, but can arrange it, and maybe we can discuss it there...

Edit: @ Randarkmaan, maybe you could make a sketch for wraithdt, or describe how the castle looks like. I can imagine the view from one of those castles is magnificent.

Ringeck
08-17-2006, 12:47
And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?


I have to admit a preference for the little pep-talks you get when choosing your factions in Europa Barbarorum, such as this one for the Swebóz: https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_sweboz.html

Something like that is both fun to write and read.

beauchamp
08-17-2006, 16:06
Well, it's not an Almohad castle but one 'passive' loading screen you could have could be the Moorish castle at Guadalest, I was there yesterday, it was counted as impregnable until it was taken by some Spanish guy with a large army.


Awsome!!!! For loading screens, I would imagine the Al-Hamma (the red) with a sunrise in the backround (or sunset). Seeing as it is arguably the most beautiful piece of arcetecture the moors created.

Randarkmaan
08-17-2006, 18:39
Well, Guadalest is the most visited village in Spain, so it should not be hard to find pictures of the castle known as L'Alcazaiba or Sant Josep, sadly though I forgot to bring a camera...

here's some pictures I found on the web

http://refugioderosa.webcindario.com/paisajes/ALICANTE/guadalest.jpg
Here's a view of the top the castle is located on, you can see some walls and a tower or two

http://www.lascatalinas.co.uk/editor/pimages/View-from-Guadalest.jpg
Here's the view, amazing how clear that river is...

http://www.romanvirdi.com/spain2002/2_11025.jpg
The castle at the top of the mountain, I can see why they thought it impregnable...



@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...

Yeah maybe I should just do it so that the player does not have any control over it when it comes to implementing the new Ayyubid army. But the Fatimid units should not disappear all at once it should still be gradually, for an example having an event show up when the Armenian troops were disbanded after their pro-Fatimid uprising.
I have been wondering what is the best way to implement Saladin's takeover of Egypt? I mean earlier in the thread you talked about making the Egyptian characters heretics because the Fatimids were shias, yes it does make sense but how would you simulate Saladin changing the country's religion to Sunni Islam, would it be possible to change the religion of the characters? What I think would have been easier is if you just had Islam be one religion... and not represent the Fatimid Shias as Heretics.
Also it would be a little weird with Saladin's take over, since they did actually occupy Egypt, wouldn't it be a little weird having a message pop up and say that you have been occupied without even having seen an army?

EDIT: Had to put i another picture of the castle since it doesen't seem to work...

SaberHRE
08-17-2006, 19:38
what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D:laugh4:

OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

polak966
08-18-2006, 00:09
im more for different units for each faction.
altho this may take a bit longer i think the game will be more unique and the 2 upsides i see right away are a very unique feel to each faction, we are able to show the historical differences between the differences of warriors of all the countries in europe, and although small, they will be appreciated, and last we will be able to have stats of 2 swordsman units having one being better on the other depending on how famous that faction was for that type of warrior (this doesnt include uniqu units like say sipahi, etc)
for ex. german chivalric knights can be stronger than spanish ones because hgistoricaly they were more renouned and feared (im not saying they were, just an example)
that way germans can have slightly better 'generic' (even tho its only the same in name) infantry or say poland can have slightly stronger cavalry becuz it was historicaly famous for its cavalry dependance.

Publius
08-18-2006, 00:36
Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

polak966
08-18-2006, 00:50
thats wat i ment, training, not realy cultural benefits.

Publius
08-18-2006, 02:54
In that case, I agree with you :helloo:

kataphraktoi
08-18-2006, 04:32
With modifications that claim to represent historical accuracy there are two things to consider:

1) Historical accuracy as we know it is determined by what has happened already and hence the history as we know it which we try to represent accurately
2) But because games like MTW2 also allow the player to CHANGE history, history as we know it, might not have happened at all, so what we are doing then is assuming things still remain the same...

So its a very fine line we tread in balancing historical accuracy and historical plausibility.

In fact, by claiming historical accuracy, we also claim and assume certain things happened even if a player with his faction achieves things his faction did not historically achieve.

But our policy is to remain as close to what historically happened despite being able to change history, however, there are circumstances, where historically plausible, to allow a "departure" from history as know it. But that will be discussed a long way in the future.


Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

Combat ability will largely be determined by:

1) Regional considerations - does a particular region specialise in particular units HISTORICALLY
2) Training length - how does it take to recruit a unit
3) Armour - can also benefit from bonuses from blacksmiths, etc, etc
4) Discipline
5) Morale - can also benefit from buildings which increase morale of soldiers in the region (if possible in MTW2)
6) Weapons - same as armour
7) Experience - accumulated on battlefield

So any "famous" military units will have rely on these characteristics alone


OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

If we make lots of units, it will be not to appease the crowds but rather to give a diverse character and environment to the game. I have in mind the independent factions (ie rebels). Each independent faction will have a uniqueness about their army (within historical means of course). However, because a unit is "unique" it doesn't necessarily mean a military advantage. Its part of the "sight and sounds" of MTR:AOA.

And remember, some units get "upgraded" or "evolve" so to speak, so we must keep that in mind too. Although, that will be hard for nomadic factions and also for Byzantium...but thats another matter.

I agree that some factions should not have a large roster of "special" units. But I think once we finish our research, we can decide on how to limit the number of special units.

And even if a faction does have more access to "special" units, they'll think carefully before creating an army of elites because of cost. We have to make players carefully think about army composition and cost through our scripting.

Thats why I suggested a warehouse for the Byzantines as part of logistics. It increases ur extractive ability of revenue to support either a large army, or expensive soldiers, but it makes the population very unhappy...so one must consider that supporting and recruiting large numbers of elites will create a civilian effect too.

As for the intro:
The introduction is an introduction to the faction in the year 1066. No need to write a history from 1066 - 1453 (or 1492). The intro sets the scene for the faction, but it can also suggests what historically happens in the future, or what can be changed in the future too. Its ur choice how u want to present it, but as long as it presents the faction's situation in 1066.


Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

I think that the 2 systems should be kept for all factions. But in terms of transitioning from Fatimids to Ayyubids to Mamelukes, I think it will require both a combination of buildings, religion and scripting. Lets say that the Fatimids are made heretics, that means they can recruit particular units...but once they convert to Sunni Islam, then they can have access to other particular units too. As for transitioning from the Ayyubids to the Mamelukes, its different from the Fats to the Ayyubs since the Mamelukes were Ayyubid soldiers in the first place. I suppose we could script a rebellion and from that point on allow the player access to more unique Mameluke units even if the rebellion of the Mamelukes were successful or not.

Phew, hope that clears everything.

And yes, everyone should get IRC.

If you do log on, make sure ur nick has MTR at the end of it to indicate team status.

Oh Yes, and here's my repeated plea to everyone, think of gameplay features, think of things u want to see, eg. wonders, if any...small things and big things!!! And we'll discuss it on IRC #rometotalrealism on quakenet

DukeofSerbia
08-18-2006, 12:04
The Orthodox Christians were much more pragmatic, or should I say, the Byzantine Emperors. Basil II himself downgraded the Patriarchate of Ochrid to an Archbishopric and made it Autonomous from the Patriarch of Constantinople.


Ochrid was always Archbishopry and never Patriarchat. Orthodox Serbs (Bishopry of Ras and Bishopry of Prizren were under Archbishop of Ochrid until 1219).


And do you need some good photographies about Middle East as I have over 4 000 pictures from last year when pilgrims were in Israel? Actually I have friend who was there in pilgrim (in organisation of Serbian Orhodox Church) and he photographed everything in Israel.

DukeofSerbia
08-18-2006, 12:10
Send me a PM about the Kosovo Polje thing, I don't think this thread should contain too much historical debate.

OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/emmert.htm



I believe the term means that the head archbishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop and that the church is ruled by itself, still remaining in communion with the rest of orthodoxy but is self-governing? Is there a rank called autonomous?


No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.



I was using autonomous as it is commonly used in the english language for organizations - self-governing, not subject to outside authority. My only good treatice on serbian medieval history is Durhams old 1989 book, so there might be some holes in my knowledge


Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autocephaly
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autonomy



(as I suspect there is in your medieval scandinavian history :book: ).

Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

Ringeck
08-18-2006, 12:21
No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.
Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.

Ok, that cleared things up (and nobody likes wikipedia). Well, in that case yes, I was referring to autocephaly.


OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/emmert.htm

Interesting article. It definitely muddles the waters as to what actually happened. I guess you'd still agree that the battle of Kosovo Polje has a rather central position in the serbian modern mind, no matter who won?



Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

I was simply saying that I am not by any means an expert on serbian history, which is only natural since I specialized in northern european history. I guessed the same applied to you "the other way around". ~:)

kataphraktoi
08-18-2006, 14:04
Hi guys just a bit of housekeeping.

Any research data please reserve for the template and don't post it here. Not because of we're trying to hide anything, we're trying to streamline and keep things clean in this forum concerning information and content. :2thumbsup:

I hope everyone gets onto IRC for discussion, server is quakenet and its at #rometotalrealism

Make sure to add MTR on ur name to indicate team status

what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D


OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

Diversity of units will be to make the game interesting and also to make independent factions interesting too (within historical limits) so that conquering rebels will be an interesting experience.


And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

I give u guys creative license for that as long as it meets the minimum requirements:

1) As long as it addresses the faction's situation in 1066
2) As long as its interesting :2thumbsup:


Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

I'll discuss my ideas on IRC :2thumbsup:

Hope everyone is well...I'm hungry. Good nite.

DukeofSerbia
08-18-2006, 18:22
@kataphraktoi

I have suprise for you in e-mail.:book:

Randarkmaan
08-18-2006, 22:41
I'm just wondering if someone could tell me how I use on of those IRCs, since I've never used one. Would be nice to know for when I get home...

Cadmus
08-19-2006, 10:29
It's not that difficult to use, at least the basics, with which I got off pretty quickly.
Just run the program, then you have to fill in your 'name" and 'e-mail', then your username (which Kataphraktoi specified as having MTR in it) and then as server (you'll see the tab) quakenet.
When it connects to the server, you will have to enter a channel, type #rometotalrealism, although they directed me through also to #medievaltotalrealism.
Hope it works, unless I forgot a step.

Btw, when is everyone online, because we all live in the different corners of the world, as is my impression, so..., when it's noon here, Kataphraktoi has already hit the sack, and in the US, they are just awaking....

DukeofSerbia
08-19-2006, 10:31
The CB option deepens a province's bureacratic structure with emphasis on revenue extraction but in the process allows for wider options for public amenities and services; influences economic structure predominantly cash and trade based; ability to construct monuments and other structures that reflect imperial power and other structures which allow a deeply bureacratic character to take place.

In a nutshell:
Limited choice of military units but they are elite and professional soldiery. Good structure for revenue extraction and allows develop of a city's urban character through amenities, services, monuments and other civilian structures. This favours the Emperor's power and prestige. Tned to improve civic pride, improve wealth, sophistication and knowledge.

Types of units:
Imperial Tagmata
Foreign Mercenaries
Naval forces
Spies
Court Spies
Patriarchs
Archbishops
Bishops
Priests
Monks
Ascetics
Diplomats
Assasins
Vigiles - police forces, not the Tagmatic unit.


It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

What you mean by “Ascetics”?

4th Dimension
08-19-2006, 11:37
What you mean by “Ascetics”?
Probably some old felows singing behind the main lines providing morale boost.

kataphraktoi
08-20-2006, 08:42
It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

Lol, I used plural to indicate that you can train ur own Patriarchs for Constantinople, Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. However, a player would need to play be house rules and not crazy training patriarchs for every province but limit themselves to training them when they conquer areas of the patriachal sees...plus I got ur email :2thumbsup:

By ascetics I mean hermits, stylites and other men who punished themselves through deprivation to prove their holiness.

I think the Muslims will have Pirs and Shaikhs or Sufis.....perhaps

kataphraktoi
08-20-2006, 13:57
I'll leave myself logged in as kataMTR I may or may not be actively online, but I'll be online nonetheless. Leave a message to on a separate window by clicking kataMTR and typing what u want. Actually, I hope everyone stays logged in at #medievaltotalrealism whether they chat or not just so its easier to send messages :2thumbsup:

and please for the love of Pope Shenouda!! include "MTR" aat the end of ur chosen nick.

So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

-Almogaver-
08-20-2006, 17:37
Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well:book: I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

kataphraktoi
08-20-2006, 18:06
Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

Ah.....sweet words indeed..."enjoy" :2thumbsup:

Cadmus
08-20-2006, 20:35
So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

I believe that was a hint.... already changed.

kataphraktoi
08-22-2006, 08:14
Latest version of the template and final version....I hope

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/ResearchTemplate.doc

Good luck y'all

Victor_cel_mare
08-22-2006, 11:25
Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

Randarkmaan
08-22-2006, 14:30
Hey guys, would just like to tell you that I'm home and that I've received a few books I ordered to help my research, will probably be working mostly in the weekends (School's started and I'm trying to take it seriosly this year), and be logged on to IRC then.
But what I really posted here for was the fact that in one of the books there is a picture showing medieval Muslim male clothing, which I thought I'd post here since it would be of interest to all the Muslim researchers... if you'd like to see the descriptions of the plates I can PM it to you...

https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7154/muslimclothingaf6.th.jpg (https://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muslimclothingaf6.jpg)

There's also a plate showing both Arab and Turkish horse-harness... as well as one showing archery equipment, bow construction and draw and release techniques.

Duke John
08-22-2006, 16:22
I was browsing through my old M:TW modding files and came across some work I made for a mod. Perhaps it is usefull for you, mostly 15th century though. (the greens and purples are because of M:TWs faction colouring)

Mercenary pikemen
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload1/infopic_mercenary_pikemen.gif
Burgundian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload1/infopic_burgundian_maa.gif
English royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload1/infopic_english_royal.gif
French royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload1/infopic_french_royal.gif
Italian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload1/infopic_italian_armour.gif
Swiss armoured pikeman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/infopic_swiss_armoured_pikemen.gif
Swiss halberdier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/infopic_swiss_halberdier.gif
Voulgier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/infopic_voulgier.gif
14th century English longbowman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/wip_archer.gif

And a 360 degree unit preview :tongue2:
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload/profile_voulgier.avi

Cheers,
DJ

Victor_cel_mare
08-22-2006, 16:31
man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?

DukeofSerbia
08-22-2006, 18:30
Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

Hello neighbour from Banat and Romania.:balloon2:

1. Read the first post as you will find everything what you need to know about this project.

2. Project leader is Achilles, but temporary project leader is kataphraktoi.

3. So, contact kataphraktoi.



man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?


Yes, that's right.:2thumbsup:

Faenaris
08-26-2006, 18:58
I just want to pop in with the following post:

My PC is undergoing repairs at the moment and i'm still doing exams, I'm not going to get it back until I'm finished. It just distracts me. :)

A small question to Kataphraktoi: Could you please send me an e-mail with the subject I will be researching? I have been waiting for some time now and I would like to get started with researching. :)

See you all around. I will pop in on IRC when exams are done.

Randarkmaan
08-27-2006, 14:20
Just have one thing that I'd like to say. Since I'm pretty decent at drawing (Though not clearly as good as Wraithdt and the other guys) I could if you want draw concept art sketches for my own factions so that you have less work to do... I've drawn sketches of two types of Armenian soldiers so far...

Victor_cel_mare
08-28-2006, 13:28
i saw yesterday at my local museum new drawings with all the wariors who passed into Romania from crusader knights on their way to Jerusalem to fanatical turks.could i reasearch something about that?and what do you use for drawing ?and do you model 3 d units with 3 d modeling programs?i have 2 3 d modeling programs and i know that you must be good to make a decent unit...i still have problem modeling the sword.

kataphraktoi
08-29-2006, 05:27
:2thumbsup:
Thematikoi Hoplitai
https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoihoplitaifm0.jpg

The thematic infantry in this time period is in dire straits. Deprived of sustenance and their pay, they have been allowed to decay. However, while being ignored, these infantrymen have kept themselves busy on their lands as farmers. Their physique is maintained through hunting and hard labour. They carry a spear, shield and sword as basic equipment. IN fact, they are lucky if they have even these three together.

https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoitagmatikoihoplitaiandthematikoitoxotaiwe9.jpg

The Skoutatoi in the top left corner represents the majority of the heavy infantry of Byzantium. Leather/padded corselets and leather/felt caps are commonly used as defensive panoply. For weapons they carry a kontos (4-4.5metres though not portrayed in the drawing), a spatha and a kite-shaped shield.

The Skoutatoi at the bottom represents the heavy infantry that ideally equipped according to the sources. He wears a Klibanion of banded lamellar with pteruges and a lamellar plates covering his upper arm. For his limbs he wears the common splinted type. His helmet is a simply construction with a mail aventail hood attached to it.

THe archer iin the top right corner represents purposefully trained and recruited archers. Again, represented ideally if the equipment is available. He wears padded armour and is equipped with a composite bow, quiver, spatha, handaxe and a small shield. His helmet is of leather construction with padded aventail.

https://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imaginarykataphraktoixs7.jpg

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun :2thumbsup:


saw yesterday at my local museum new drawings with all the wariors who passed into Romania from crusader knights on their way to Jerusalem to fanatical turks.could i reasearch something about that?and what do you use for drawing ?and do you model 3 d units with 3 d modeling programs?i have 2 3 d modeling programs and i know that you must be good to make a decent unit...i still have problem modeling the sword.

Lol, i have no idea, cos none of our skinners, modellers talk here often, they are busy with their own projects

SaberHRE
08-29-2006, 07:38
Those imaginary Kataphraktoi look sweet!
:2thumbsup:

I those kind of units did exist, but they were not called Kataphraktoi(talking about 1400 period)

Randarkmaan
08-29-2006, 13:34
Did they? Well in that case they propably were foreign mercenaries, as with nearly all the effective units in the Byzantine army during the middle-ages...

Also just thought I'd post it here... here is a WIP list of units for the Fatimid Caliphate... Would be grateful for any help with the names, as said in the research template the names should preferably be in the faction's native tongue... and I don't speak Arabic... Not necessary for the agents though I think.

Armenian Bowmen
Armenian Cavalry
Saharan Cavalry
Daylamite Infantry
Daylamite Caliphal Guards
Sudani (Black African Infantry)
Nubian Longbowmen
Abyssinian Guarsds (Palace troops)
Hawwallah Labour Corps (Rabble like infantry with sapping ability)
Jund Misr (Cairo Militia)
Ghulams (Palace troops)
Ahdath Urban Militia (Light, Heavy and Missile types)
Naffatun (Fire corps)
(Urbanized) Arab Faris
Arab Tribesmen
Arabian Infantry
Bedouin horsemen
Bedouin Camel Warriors
Saharan (Berber) Cavalry (Could be called Tuareg since they were effectively their precursors)
Berber Tribesmen
Ismaili missionary (Heretic priest)
Emissary
Spy
Assassin (perhaps hashishin, because the Fatimids had close ties with them)

SaberHRE
08-29-2006, 18:08
Did they? Well in that case they propably were foreign mercenaries, as with nearly all the effective units in the Byzantine army during the middle-ages...

I wouldn't call them Cataphracts... They were basically knights, many being foreigners, but still I can remember from somewhere "Greek Knights". Oh well nevermind.

O btw have you seen the recent screenies. Mounted cannons on elephants! :inquisitive: http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/aa.jpg

beauchamp
08-29-2006, 21:17
@Randarkmaan: Just PM me the names and Ill get them translated, It might take some time because I am just starting school again :shame: .

Randarkmaan
08-29-2006, 21:32
It might take some time because I am just starting school again

Same with me, painful aint it? I am trying to take it seriously so I will mainly get work done in the weekends... BTW I sent you a PM

JR-
08-31-2006, 11:57
great work fella's, may i ask a couple of questions:

1) it appear that you have removed America (good decision) in order to allow greater faction variety in eurasia, if you do get 30 factions to play with how far will you extend the game eastwards? it would be cool to have some of the more notable eastern empires/kingdoms.

2) RTW:BI apparently introduced some sophistication to the religious mechanics that allowed modders to simulate religious schisms, how sophisticated do you believe you can be with making the shia faction/s display as more than just heretics? will you consider a reformation event in the 15th century.

3) some RTW modders managed to create a four season year from the standard two seasons, given how unpopular the M2:TW time mechanics have proved with fans do you intend to implement somethings similar to a fixed multi season year for time passing?

regards

PGtips