MP balance mod suggestion

[Geoffrey S]

Something that frequently seems to pop up in topics about MTW2 is the balance; more specifically, many worry that it'll be an inferior job as was the case in Rome. While this is easy enough to resolve for the single player game, as has been pointed out this does not help the online game.

Now I'm no mp gamer myself, but the bad balancing was obvious even to me in a RTW lan party session. A mod addressing balance issues is of course only feasible if a large number of players utilise said mod. Therefore, my suggestion is this:

When MTW2 is released, a group of dedicated and experienced players of the TW series perform extensive testing on what is unbalanced and what works. This does not even have to be unit combat stats, at least not extensively, but more the unit costs and movement speeds to promote a more balanced and tactical game. I realise that different gamers are looking for different gamestyles; to appeal to enough players to make such a mod useful, changes should be relatively minor, though how much change would be necessary can only be determined after the game is released.

As a team, this group of players would work out how to better balance the game and implement the changes. Once released, this mod could only be useful if as many multiplayers use it as possible. This is why it'd be great if well-known and experienced players could help with the balancing, and if this mod were promoted as extensively as possible over multiple TW gaming fora. Also, polls could be used to gauge what the majority of players want changed; and I mean relatively frequent players, part of the community, not one-off gamers who would prefer a cavalry spam.

Does anyone else believe this type of project is feasible? Of course, MTW2 may turn out just fine, but I'm sure there'll always be room for improvement. It'd be great if the community banded together to make such improvements.

Input would be much appreciated.

[Epistolary Richard]

I imagine something similar - i.e. a community standard MP mod - was attempted for RTW. Perhaps it would be useful to have a look at the problems they faced and what, if anything, became of them.

[L'Impresario]

Does anyone else believe this type of project is feasible? Of course, MTW2 may turn out just fine, but I'm sure there'll always be room for improvement. It'd be great if the community banded together to make such improvements.

The short version is "no". The long version isn't that long but reading some old topics in the MTW/STW MP sections can shed some further light and awake funny memories.
The main issue is the existance of a "playable" vanilla game. Even if the balance isn't that great, if the other parameters (speed & movement, hard-coded modifiers, map size, unit responsiveness, pc requirements/performance etc) are at least acceptable by longterm players, then people might consider it worth the effort to further mod the game in order to reach a satisfying gameplay.
OTOH, if the vanilla game is "decent", players won't be willing to try any mod, esp. over perceived balance issues which take quite some time for the "untrained" eye to detect (or accept that changes could be a positive thing).

[CBR]

The MP community is now so disorganised that I think that alone will make it nearly impossible to do.

But even back in STW/MTW days it wasnt possible as there are as many opinions on game balance as there are players.

Some doesnt want changes as they are doing fine chopping up newbies with the vanilla game. Others doesnt want changes because they dont want to learn a new game etc etc...

In my MTW MP days I saw how much big egos, paranoia and pride could ruin it. I guess thats my "funny memories" of it heh.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

I agree with the replies posted so far, Mods for MP have never been warmly received for the reasons given so far plus there are many MP players who simply will not install a Mod.
I remember some very frustrating stat conflicts with RTW MP Mods for no apparent reason and there is no chance that players new to TW would consider that. The best we can hope for is that CA have learnt from the first MTW and remove the European bias that made MTW MP a joke. The factions must be balanced in a way that allows tactical skill to prevail and that includes the Islamic factions

......Orda

[L'Impresario]

The best we can hope for is that CA have learnt from the first MTW and remove the European bias that made MTW MP a joke. The factions must be balanced in a way that allows tactical skill to prevail and that includes the Islamic factions

Nah, I don't agree that there was any European bias, it's just that the settings a majority of players used tended to favour those factions. Although if there's a "skill" gap between two players, then no army can save you.
It always boils down to preferred settings.

[Orda Khan]

There will always be a favoured army cost, one that is used by the majority. How often did we see Islamic factions feature in CWC? Sure, if you are more skillful than your opponent you may succeed but against those with equal skill the Euro's were first choice every time

......Orda

[L'Impresario]

And this brings the question of whether the prices should be modeled after a specific CA-endorsed gamemode, based on, say 10k, and having different prices for MP and SP (there was this option in RTW), or have more abstract prices that will allow different playing styles according to each florin level. The equivalent of this latter option would be VI, examples being 99k for people who didn't care a lot about morale, 10k for those who wanted a cav&sword, get-all-8-cav-to-the-flank kind of game, or 5k for more diverse, few elite unit armies that require lots of player attention due to base morale being <6.

[CBR]

RTW also killed off the easy mods of MTW/VI days. Now that eras will be back in MTW2 one can hope it gets better but TBH I doubt it will be as easy as MTW/VI


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Nah, I don't agree that there was any European bias, it's just that the settings a majority of players used tended to favour those factions.
Eastern factions in MTW depended more on archers than did the Western factions. Since the armor was greater in MTW than it had been in STW and the ammo effectively less, the Eastern factions were less effective on any kind of map other than desert. (Ammo was 28 in both games, but distributed per man in MTW rather than per unit as it was STW. DUX mod for MTW/VI increases ammo on some archers to 32 and 36, and STWmod for MTW/VI also increases archer ammo to 36.) Eastern factions faired better in desert because there was less armor used and camels got their fear bonus, but even there the English faction was very good. Desert wasn't played much because of the higher fatigue rate. Fatigue rate hadn't been changed from STW which used smaller maps, so was not optimized for MTW although it was reduced slightly for desert in one of the MTW patches.



RTW also killed off the easy mods of MTW/VI days. Now that eras will be back in MTW2 one can hope it gets better but TBH I doubt it will be as easy as MTW/VI.
I see several problems other than getting people to use it. First is lack of control over important parameters such as individual movement rates in the new engine. Second is the missing features in the battle engine such as "squeezed to tight combat penalty" and the way archers work with nobody in the unit being able to shoot until every man has stopped moving, and then everyone shoots whether or not the individual shooters are in range. Also, it doesn't appear that deep formations of shooters have any accuracy penalty, and the arrow velocity is too high and doesn't appear to be adjustable. Third is the battlefield upgrades which should be removed from multiplayer as they were in MTW/VI because they destroy the very balance you are trying to achieve with the mod. Fourth is that you really have to wait until the battle engine is debugged with patches. If that takes too long, the very people you are trying to attract with the improved gameplay have quit and moved on to other games by the time the mod is ready.

[L'Impresario]

Eastern factions in MTW depended more on archers than did the Western factions. Since the armor was greater in MTW than it had been in STW and the ammo effectively less, the Eastern factions were less effective on any kind of map other than desert. (Ammo was 28 in both games, but distributed per man in MTW rather than per unit as it was STW. DUX mod for MTW/VI increases ammo on some archers to 32 and 36, and STWmod for MTW/VI also increases archer ammo to 36.) Eastern factions faired better in desert because there was less armor used and camels got their fear bonus, but even there the English faction was very good. Desert wasn't played much because of the higher fatigue rate. Fatigue rate hadn't been changed from STW which used smaller maps, so was not optimized for MTW although it was reduced slightly for desert in one of the MTW patches.

I don't think we can establish such a relation as proof that the eastern factions were weaker. Don't forget that only in specific settings you can buy lots of ck or elite units with that extra armour. The line units (eg FMAA, MS, FS) are not in a position that allows them to disregard missile superiority. In lower morale games routing a single unit can create a series of continuous routs, therefore shooting with multiple archers/hybrids/HA a single unit (esp. on the flanks or if you have a decent cav to charge it after having something like 15-20% losses) can really be a considerbable advantage and help create situations where enemy mrl penalties stack.

Missile superiority works better in non-flat maps in order to force an army to attack whether defending or not. This is more pronounced in the early era, but even when the enemy has pavs, easterners get very cheap fast and hard hitting cav and HAs, enjoying special advantages in large maps and low morale settings, where a single charge on the flanks can rout a unit.

Fatigue also favours those having missile superiority, because after 15-20 mins pass, the one who makes a move first will start feeling all the penalties sooner than his enemy. Easterners also tend to enjoy higher mrl for their line units. Ofc at 10 and 15k this isn't perceivable because upgrades tend to favour higher cost units, and they happen to lack units over 500 florins or so (apart from the JHC for the Turks and the bodyguard units but at 10k they leave much to be desired).

From my DUX mod experiences I can safely say that mobility is an advantage that can't be considered equal with pure brute power (eg high attack and defense scores). In vanilla VI, if you want to highlight such an aspect you need to have a specific team that has trained together plus a number of other factors, talking about 10k here. That's because western factions can afford to have ck chasing routers and decimating them quite easily, while cmaa and fmaa v3 can afford to stay unprotected from most cavalry types (no spears that is) if on hold and/or in a formation that presents no discernable open flanks.
And no, I won't bring RTW into this comparison, mainly because routers tend to evaporate when chased.

[Geoffrey S]

Alright, well, thanks for the input. If even longterm players view this as unattainable, it's probably best left aside. In particular, Puzz3D's point about patches is a good one. Were there a dedicated team for such a mod it might be doable, but even then as has been stated not everyone wants the same changes (though this is why I mentioned only minor tweaks).

I guess the more regular players can come up with good rules for balance among each other, anyway.

[Orda Khan]

There were plenty of dedicated people who tried their utmost to find a Mod that was sufficiently well balanced to provide a worth while MP experience in RTW. SPQR Mod failed due to version conflict, regardless of whether both players had the same version installed on a clean RTW install.
Many dedicated players decided that RTW was useless and simply quit playing.
COH was even set up to try to steer the game towards 'honourable' play in a vain attempt to put an end to ruinous spam armies.
Multiple rules were applied to try to find some gameplay.
And of course, there are always those who do not see anything wrong with the vanilla game.
Oh, I almost forgot the dreadful lobby!

L'Impresario does not agree with my Euro bias claim and maybe at 5k this is not so prevalent. However, most refused to play at such levels due to overall morale and who can blame them since chain rout after chain rout is hardly enjoyable (even when it's you who is routing others) and these chain routs happened over and over, I know because I saw them.
And then there is my old gripe....the STAT COMPARE TOOL. Which gives the studier a breakdown of units in such a way that 'THE' army is soon exposed and consequently used by all.
The only time I really enjoyed MTW or VI was playing Mods but even Mods could do nothing about the static horse archers of STW and MTW.
I really have started to doubt the game will ever be worth playing MP again and unless the AI gets radical treatment I doubt it would be worth playing at all

.........Orda

[L'Impresario]

However, most refused to play at such levels due to overall morale and who can blame them since chain rout after chain rout is hardly enjoyable (even when it's you who is routing others) and these chain routs happened over and over, I know because I saw them.

That's subjective, each morale level has different nuances and chain routing is present in all but the highest florin levels, when there's a considerable skill difference or serious mistakes. I didn't mention specifically 5k or medium flat maps or anythign else, but I did point out indirectly that habit is a strong force. Personally, I find a base mrl score 5 to be a good compromise between allowing too many errors to go unpunished and trying to control fickle events that can determine a battle. At base mrl 8, you 'll be hard pressed to find a situation where a flanking charge can rout in secs a unit that's not tired or cut from the bulk of its army.
For a more relaxed game there are higher florins settings. On lower morale a single player can rout more frequently multiple opponents, ofcourse not under any circumstances, so you usually can't be sure of the end result. And since units can rout even with few losses should a mass rout occur, the one chasing the fleeing enemy is also taking some risks when his units are getting divided. This back-and-forth game has been proven to offer an enjoyable experience for the appropriate players many a time.

On the "perfect" army, I can say that your own troops seldom guarantee you victory in all occasions, given that there are numerous examples of sword & cav armies being unable to face eastern ones even in 10k. The easier example being 10k 1v1 in a steppe map versus all cav. Or when the enemy uses his v0 alans to force you either to attack him or bring forward knight units and sustain unnecessary casualties.

Regarding mods and weak points of the VI game, like static HA, the modable stats offer you an easy and fast way to strive for a balance. With some creativity, one could make HA shoot faster than normal archers and give them more ammo, trying thus to show their ability to shoot on the run and replenish their arrow stock.

[Vladimir]

I really don’t think the Eastern factions in MTW/VI were weaker per say but they did demand more attention from the player. While the European style units had a fire and forget style the fast, mobile, ranged units of the East demand more attention. These attributes demand greater skill on the part of the “general” and also serve to enhance his ability.

When playing as the Turks I’m able to take down the Byzantine using ~80% Turcoman Horse Archers. Now, I don’t recommend that you try that on multiplayer but there are a cheap and effective way of defeating your enemy.

It’s less about balance and more about tactics. If you can assign certain units to certain people you can fight European armies like Saladin did, and not like an armchair general.

[Puzz3D]

When playing as the Turks I’m able to take down the Byzantine using ~80% Turcoman Horse Archers.
That's the very thing you don't want to be repeatedly effective in multiplayer. Taking 80% of one unit type should leave you vulnerable to the counterunit which your opponent will start to utilize. Every unit must have a counterunit otherwise you don't have a combined arms game, and the army type used will eventually converge to the army that has no counter.



If you can assign certain units to certain people you can fight European armies like Saladin did, and not like an armchair general.
In multiplayer, people pick their armies. They aren't assigned armies. This is why balanced units within a faction and balanced factions are so critical. With the large number of units and factions in the game now, the task of balancing is enormous. In STWmod which only has 14 unit types and all factions using the same unit set, it took several months of work and hundreds of tests to balance, and we are still finding things that need adjustment a year later.

[Geoffrey S]

That's the very thing you don't want to be repeatedly effective in multiplayer. Taking 80% of one unit type should leave you vulnerable to the counterunit which your opponent will start to utilize. Every unit must have a counterunit otherwise you don't have a combined arms game, and the army type used will eventually converge to the army that has no counter.
This is one of the major issues I encountered when playing RTW in multiplayer at last. There wasn't nearly enough of a sharp divide between units qualities, as in spears beating cavalry headon, or sword armed units eventually beating spears. And cavalry was simply too powerful. Experience modifiers only made this imbalance worse.

Even in MTW, I could rely on low-grade spearmen beating high level cavalry, of there being some kind of logic. This was absent in RTW, with too much emphasis on elite units, and more noticeable in MP than in SP to me.

[Orda Khan]

That's subjective, each morale level has different nuances and chain routing is present in all but the highest florin levels, when there's a considerable skill difference or serious mistakes. I didn't mention specifically 5k or medium flat maps or anythign else, but I did point out indirectly that habit is a strong force. Personally, I find a base mrl score 5 to be a good compromise between allowing too many errors to go unpunished and trying to control fickle events that can determine a battle. At base mrl 8, you 'll be hard pressed to find a situation where a flanking charge can rout in secs a unit that's not tired or cut from the bulk of its army.
For a more relaxed game there are higher florins settings. On lower morale a single player can rout more frequently multiple opponents, ofcourse not under any circumstances, so you usually can't be sure of the end result. And since units can rout even with few losses should a mass rout occur, the one chasing the fleeing enemy is also taking some risks when his units are getting divided. This back-and-forth game has been proven to offer an enjoyable experience for the appropriate players many a time.

On the "perfect" army, I can say that your own troops seldom guarantee you victory in all occasions, given that there are numerous examples of sword & cav armies being unable to face eastern ones even in 10k. The easier example being 10k 1v1 in a steppe map versus all cav. Or when the enemy uses his v0 alans to force you either to attack him or bring forward knight units and sustain unnecessary casualties.

Regarding mods and weak points of the VI game, like static HA, the modable stats offer you an easy and fast way to strive for a balance. With some creativity, one could make HA shoot faster than normal archers and give them more ammo, trying thus to show their ability to shoot on the run and replenish their arrow stock.

I mentioned 5k in particular because I was one of the players who tried various settings. Watching your entire army turn and flee without even being engaged is nobody's idea of fun. If pressed, I would have to favour MTW v1.0 as the best experience and I feel subsequent patches did nothing for gameplay, but that is my opinion.
As for the east/west thing, I know what I saw back in MTW MP days and it was not by chance that the best players with eastern factions swapped to Euro's when facing an opponent of equal skill.
I honestly doubt we will ever see a return of decent MP

.......Orda

[CBR]

Its no coincidence that the MP mods for MTW/VI all have low costs for missile units. A unit equipped with a bow in vanilla was simply too expensive and that didnt change when playing at 5k.

We ran lots of 5k battles during the summer of 2003 to see if VI had improved things (VI had lowered the rout level by 2 points) The conclusion was that big battles were full of chain routs and rush armies were too powerful.

I know I had a lot more fun playing Turks in Community Mod than in vanilla MTW/VI ~:)


CBR

[L'Impresario]

We ran lots of 5k battles during the summer of 2003 to see if VI had improved things (VI had lowered the rout level by 2 points) The conclusion was that big battles were full of chain routs and rush armies were too powerful.

As I've said, it depends. My personal experience with 6k in high that we used as a standard for almost a year in 2005 (before making the mod that is) were very enjoyable and had become the norm in the VI lobby for a while (buu was hosting them with a passion heh). I don't remember any special advantages to rushers, because it takes lots of coordination to launch an attack in such a florin level, even if base mrl was 5-6 (one could easily take v2 FMAA for 506 florins). If you try to swarm an enemy with fast and cheap units you 're endangering yourself needlessly, as the rout can turn your way.
Keep also in mind that missile units also have a greater effect in low florins and can be upgraded for few florins. In 10k v4 Xbows are a very effective infantry that can save you florins and provide excellent fire cover.
But in most florin levels upgrading offers opportunities for exploits, it's just that in lower settings most individual units have a diminished role compared to the army as a total, therefore how you handle them is more important.

[Puzz3D]

Well, yet another attempt at a balance mod, Samurai Wars for MTW/VI goes down the drain. I would say over 1000 manhours went into that. Too many players have problems getting mods to work online.