WotS The Will of the Senate - out of character thread III [Archive]

Braden

08-04-2006, 15:29

...and mad! don't forget the mad! I'm expecting tales of Flaming Flying Squirrels, water boiling around your feet and quicksand appearing from no-where and swallowing whole cohorts.....

:dizzy2:

However, Econ21 (I will refrain from using his real name), has PM'd me a decent suggestion but the offer to play Manius by another can't be passed up without consultation.

I am on holiday after today BUT will post each evening - a review if you will of what I have heard during the course of the day.

Obviously, the speed of the trial depends on the speed of the campaign, this needs to be wrapped up by mid-term so we have a short time-table to be honest.

So, I will, at least, play perhaps three independant witnesses (soldier, farmer and perhaps a Centurion).

Who plays Manius will be decided shortly.

econ21

08-04-2006, 17:10

OOC :
You have laid your finger on the problem here. No-one knows 'what happened' as the battle was autoresolved. Publius could have been sick, the Gauls might have swum over the river in the night and suprised them, lighting might have struck the legion during the battle, Manius might have lost his wits during the battle and fled leading to a rout, a Star Destroyer might have slown by and blasted the legion with its turbolasers, antyhing really.

I would suggest that all the witnesses make up their own versions of the events that supposedly took place.

The above post was in the trial thread, but let's leave that for in-character stuff.

Here's my idea: there is only one truth. If everyone makes up their own versions, we will be at sea with all sorts of possible contradictions and no way of discerning what really happened.

Instead, I will play Publius Laevinus for the purpose of the trial. Publius knows the truth. I have fought it out in game and got something close enough to the autoresolve result. I have screenshots etc to "prove it". But I will not easily tell the truth for it dishonours me. The trial will have to drag it out of me.

Braden knows the truth out of character, but not in character as the judge. He will decide how many other people should know the truth or at least feed them "parts" that allow them to testify consistent with some of the truth.

I'm seeing this trial as kind of like improvised theatre, where a director (Braden/me) tell actors the motivations of their characters and some parts of the plot, then get them to ad lib parts.

The key characters are yet to be confirmed, but I am proposing:

judge - Braden
Publius - econ21
Manius - Lucjan
defence lawyer - Wonderland
prosecutor - TinCow

If anyone else wants to suggest and volunteer for a part, please do so here.

Lucjan

08-04-2006, 17:26

Since you've got screenshots for an occurance of the battle with similar results, might I ask, if the lineup as it is doesn't meet any disagreement, that you send these screenshots to me in a pm or e-mail, my e-mail available in my profile, so that I can put some grain of truth into Manius's mad ravings.

econ21

08-04-2006, 18:01

flyd

08-04-2006, 18:45

I'm wondering what has to happen for an eagle to be lost. I know that in RTR it is the equites that have the golden eagle thing in a battle. I also noticed that the unit of equites that was in the autoresolved battle was completely destroyed, i.e. had 0 men at the end. Is that what needs to happen for an eagle to be lost? Did that happen in econ's 'reenactment', did he lose the eagle?

econ21

08-04-2006, 20:30

Yes on all accounts, FLYdude. However, IMO, it makes more sense to think of the triarii guarding the eagle, so I will write it like that. (I also lost track of the equites in the battle :embarassed: - I think the last one with the eagle died to friendly fire or something equally anti-climatic).

econ21

08-04-2006, 22:21

I think there might be a problem installing the latest version of 4TPY mod over our version of Metro-Naval. I did it and tried to start a new campaign but could not - I kept being bounced back to the "New campaign" screen after selecting a faction.

I suspect the problem is that the 4TPY mod has a descr_strat.txt file that is not compatible with the rest of the metro-naval stuff (for example, it will not have the unwalled cities and will have different naval units). When I overwrote the MN version of the file over the 4TPY one, I was able to start a new campaign.

The descr_strat.txt file is only read at the beginning of a campaign, so this might explain why some of us have been happily loading up savegames with the current installation. But in case anyone gets the urge to start their own campaign, I would recommend using the MN descr_strat.txt, not the 4TPY one. I suspect the other 4TPY files (mainly on vices and virtues)are fine.

If no one refutes the above info, I will modify the FAQ to include it.

Lucjan

08-04-2006, 22:26

I was having those problems only until I found a spot with full, unseperated download files for both the M&N and 4tpy mods. Thanks in part to Death for the M&N one.

TinCow

08-04-2006, 22:27

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-04-2006, 22:38

I will serve in whatever position is required, including a simple jury member if others wish to fill all the roles. If I am forced to serve as prosecution, please ignore my previous in-game statements about defending him.

That's actually one of your funniest statements in months :laugh4:

Concerning the descr_strat.txt file, I worried about that too, but figured TinCow tested that. Yet I am a engineer and so wisely made backups of all the files affected by 4TPY 1.9.3. So no worries there, for me anyway. I could zip them together and upload them at the FileSpace if desired.
I think you only need to replace the new descr_strat.txt with the one generated by the M&N mod. Am I correct, econ21 ?

econ21

08-04-2006, 22:40

I think you only need to replace the new descr_strat.txt with the one generated by the M&N mod. Am I correct, econ21 ?

Yes, that's what I've done and it works. But I confess whenever I start a new SP campaign game, I find it overwhelming and quit. I can only really play TW in PBMs now!

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-04-2006, 22:57

I have the same problem, but I manage a serious effort at a campaign now and then, usually with a weak nation like the Germans.

Econ21, will you upload the M&N descr_strat.txt file and update the FAQ and post a message to all our lower house senators regarding this potential problem and how to fix it ? It's a bit of a hassle, but on the other hand, 4TPY 1.9.3 is very desirable if it fixes the problems we've been having.

Braden

08-04-2006, 22:58

Popped in. Lots (actually tons) to read through. So will post tomorrow guys.

Briefly though - Econ21, your ideas great and the support I'm getting from you and others is perfect for the next segment i.e. Personal Testimony

Ha! *Watch out!*

Avicenna

08-05-2006, 03:29

I'm sure TinCow or someone else already knows this, but just in case... for RP sake, whoever is the Praetor or judge for this can have the trait attributed to him manually. I just discovered it by accident when I wanted to give a character a general trait but I have him the Praetor one, and it's exactly what's needed for this case.

A general is a praetor ~;)

Dooz

08-05-2006, 08:17

A general is a praetor ~;)

Yeah, that's what I thought when I put the Praetor trait instead of General, and instead of the military rank, the character got the office of Praetor, and the description is judge and exactly what we need for this trial.

econ21

08-05-2006, 09:17

On the trial - it seems TinCow is not happy to be prosecutor and Wonderland is not happy to be defence lawyer. Maybe a rethink is in order?

We have three options:

(1) try to force TinCow and Wonderland into roles their characters are uneasy with (in reality, perhaps especially in matters of law, we sometimes get in that position); but if the players won't do it, they won't do it. One way to square the circle would be to have Wonderland defend only Publius. Maybe only he is on trial - Manius was not in command - or maybe Manius is too crazy to get a defence lawyer.
(2) find another prosecutor. The problem is we have no volunteers and in some ways this is the most demanding part (perhaps after Manius :dizzy2:). Ideally, I would like someone who does not know the truth (ie not me nor Braden) to tear into the role, being very aggressive with witnesses - a kind of witchhunter type.
(3) Have Braden's character fulfill the joint role of judge and prosecutor - a kind of inquisitor, if you like; a representative of the state. I have a vague notion that judges under the Continental system are more proactive. That would leave TinCow free to play out the defence role he volunteered for and Wonderland free to defend the guilt of Publius and condemn Manius. The problem is that Braden as prosecutor could not be naive about the truth, in real life he knows the story, but then I guess it would easier for the story to emerge in a dramatic way.

What option do people (especially Wonderland, Braden and TinCow) prefer? It might be best if they did not post in character until this is decided, so we don't dig ourselves deeper into a hole.
Any volunteers to be prosecutor under option (2), please post now.

If we have a volunteer, option (2) would seem to be best but I'm not optimistic and don't want to wait - we probably have to work with what we have got.

My preference is for option (1) but am happy to go with option (3) if others involved have strong preferences for it.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-05-2006, 09:59

I favour option (2).
Lucjan can be both Manius and his defence lawyer.
TinCow can be prosecutor.
I would like to see a prosecutor who is ignorant of the real story.

econ21

08-05-2006, 10:25

I favour option (2).

TinCow can be prosecutor.
I would like to see a prosecutor who is ignorant of the real story.

I think that's option (1) - option (2) is for someone else to be prosecutor (Tincow is option 1 or Braden is option 3).

I agree, I think Tincow would be ideal as the prosecutor - he can bring the right degree of rigour and venom to the part. It is against Verginius's family ties and his Senate statement offering to be the defence, but that might add to the poignancy (I already have drafted an "et tu, Brutus?" statement from Publius.)

Lucjan can be both Manius and his defence lawyer.

Wonderland has just PMd me suggesting this. I think it is fine, although I do think it would be fun to hear Manius speak directly in the trial as well. I'm visualising a kind of Caligula/Hannibal Lector kind of figure - not a jibbering wreck, but a charmer who is definitely not quite right.

Lucjan

08-05-2006, 13:14

I'll play Manius and Servius, Servius will be the defence for Manius only.

TinCow

08-05-2006, 15:12

That's fine, I'll serve as prosecutor.

Mount Suribachi

08-05-2006, 16:43

Calling all Rome fans!

Check it out, starting tonight BBC4 are doing a "Visions of Rome" season. They're showing every episode of I Claudius at 9pm on consecutive nights!

They're following that every night with Up Pompeii, and a few other documentaries thrown in as well!

[monty burns] excellent [/monty burns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/cinema/features/iclaudius.shtml

Starts tonight at 8 with Togas on TV (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/listings/programme.shtml?filename=20060805/20060805_2000_4544_42130_60)

econ21

08-05-2006, 17:04

They're showing every episode of I Claudius at 9pm on consecutive nights!

Thanks for the heads-up - I remember watching that as a kid; it made a big impression. It made the recent "Rome" series look tame by comparison. I guess because the Emperors were able to get away with so much compared to the men of the Republic. I wonder how it fares by today's standards?

x-dANGEr

08-05-2006, 18:32

Just one note.. (Going through all the posts you hyper-actives make is hard along with everything else I need to do :P )

Make Publius seem as a victim.. Please. (Me and him share the first name)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-05-2006, 22:44

Thanks for the heads-up - I remember watching that as a kid; it made a big impression. It made the recent "Rome" series look tame by comparison. I guess because the Emperors were able to get away with so much compared to the men of the Republic. I wonder how it fares by today's standards?

I have the DVD at home. You can take all my stuff, just leave me that DVD.
I, Claudius is the best series about Rome ever made in my opinion and I think it will not be surpassed ever (and I think I watched every Rome-related thing ever produced and I am working on the books).

The absolutely brilliant thing about I, Claudius is the acting. Derek Jacobi and Brian Blessed and all the other actors (including Patrick Stewart) give such a brilliant performance that you stay glued to the screen, starving, untill you watched the whole 10 hours of it.

And you never even notice it is almost completely played out indoors !

Apollo must have visited earth as an avatar. Surely Robert Graves must have been that avatar when he wrote I, Claudius and Claudius the God. I was forced to buy a new set of the books as the originals were disintegrating after been read dozens of times.

I think this rant expresses my opinion quite well :laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief

08-06-2006, 01:00

Just a little heads-up, I will be going on vacation tomorrow for three or four days and will not have any internet access at the time.

Marcellus isn't supposed to do anything, but if he gets into any spats during that time, I give my permission for somebody else to fight the battle.

(or you could autoresolve and have a know-it-all 19-year-old go on trial next :evil:)

Mount Suribachi

08-07-2006, 07:33

Well DDW, having seen the first 2 episodes, I must agree, I Claudius is brilliant. Like you say, the acting is first class. Kinda weird seeing Brian Blessed as Augustus tho - I'm so used to seeing a rather puny but scheming Octavian! ~:D And Livia is eeeeevil!!!

Shame about "TV and Togas" though. Trust the BBC to make a potentialy interesting program into a piece of trendy revisionism and leftist propaganda. I was expecting Tribesman to be one of the interviewees in that last 5 minutes spent slagging off America ~:(

econ21

08-07-2006, 13:43

Off-topic, but I agree "I, Claudius" has stood the test of time very well. The acting in it is excellent and the script is sharp. The early episodes all seem to reduce to Livia, acting as some horrific human cuckoo, one by one pushing the rivals to the throne out of the nest. I guess it changes when we get to see Tiberius and Caligula as equally monstrous. I'd be interested to re-read Graves to see if he highlights Livia quite so much; regardless there must be a lot of dramatic licence over whatever is written about her in Suetonius. Still, it's hard to think of a more impressive villainess. Lady Macbeth has nothing on her.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-07-2006, 15:53

The excellent thing is that I read I Claudius first and then started on Suetonius and so on. Robert Graves manages to weave all the diverse accounts together and never contradicts one of the other texts (except where they contradict each other and then he usually lists all versions). The rendition of Livia as evil mastermind behind 50 years of Roman history is his invention (altough some other writers do blame her for some of the things she does in I, Claudius, like poisoning Augustus, they are described as evil acts, not acts of an evil mastermind).

So it is actually a brilliant summary of all accounts over the time-period of the Julii dynasty, all woven together with a completely new view of the situation, and a fascinating read as well. Just awesome. :2thumbsup:

Dooz

08-07-2006, 16:18

Oh boy, all this talk about this program has got me itching. I saw Rome and thought it was good, but after reading everything about I, Claudius, I feel it's something I cannot pass up. I hope my local Blockbuster carries it.

Mount Suribachi

08-07-2006, 18:42

Its a completely different feel to Rome - a lot less glossy and glitzy. As DDW said, all the scenes are inside, and on some pretty ropey 70s sets too. With that, and the acting it reminds me more of a play than a TV series. Then again, most of the actors in it cut their teeth on the stage. Indeed Robert Jacobi said when he was asked if he wanted to play Claudius, he thought it was in Shakespeare's Julius Caeser ~:)

Mount Suribachi

08-07-2006, 22:26

Manius the Mad - :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

TinCow

08-08-2006, 12:17

Dooz

08-08-2006, 12:22

Well gathering 'evidence' for my case, I compiled basic battle statistics for each family member who has commanded an army in battle. These statistics have been added to their individual biographies and will now be updated every 5 years along with the rest of the information.

Excellent, this makes the already incredible library that much better. Well done!

Lucjan

08-08-2006, 13:46

*hoping my portrayal of Manius the mad is meeting expectations*

Dooz

08-08-2006, 13:52

I enjoyed it thoroughly. Crazy enough to entertain, coherent enough to work.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-08-2006, 14:29

Well gathering 'evidence' for my case, I compiled basic battle statistics for each family member who has commanded an army in battle. These statistics have been added to their individual biographies and will now be updated every 5 years along with the rest of the information.

You are as crazy as Manius to do that, but a good kind of crazy :laugh4:

p.s. Enjoying the show and wondering where it will lead. Publius Laevinius will arrive in two seasons instead of a year and Manius has already arrived.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-09-2006, 00:07

I will not lie to you; I will make a lengthy case. - TinCow

Holy Maceroni, Batman ! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

TinCow

08-09-2006, 00:11

I will not lie to you; I will make a lengthy case. - TinCow

Holy Maceroni, Batman ! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I didn't realize how long it had become until I finished. I added in that disclaimer paragraph at the end. Ah well, I enjoyed writing it, so it was worthwhile for me, even if no one reads it.

On another note, we have two family members who are available for use as avatars. Both are rather good choices IMO:
Herennius Genucius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1158924&postcount=18)
Cornelius Saturninus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1205874&postcount=28)

Dooz

08-09-2006, 04:31

Very nice TinCow! That was excellent, enjoyed reading it a great deal. Great job.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 13:57

I don't know, I have to wait over 100 turns before I get to even fight a battle, and when I do, I get 2 straight battles against the Macedonians where I'm vastly outnumbered. Ah well

*shrugs shoulders*

Tin Cow, loved your legal argument. Maybe we should get Pindar to do the defence? ~:)

Avicenna

08-09-2006, 14:03

It was a good shot, MS.

Since you're an active LH'er, do you want to take over my character for now?

Lucjan

08-09-2006, 14:12

It was a good shot, MS.

Since you're an active LH'er, do you want to take over my character for now?

Wait...you're not insinuating that he lost are you? O.o

Dooz

08-09-2006, 14:13

Wait...you're not insinuating that he lost are you? O.o

Check the battle report thread.

Lucjan

08-09-2006, 14:18

*grumble*

I was hoping this wouldn't happen. I played the battle myself yesterday just to see what he was up against. It's not an impossible battle just incredibly, incredibly difficult. I managed to squeeze a victory out of the battle but my only surviving units were two half-full principes, both of my generals died as well..

My highest regards and respect to Mount Suribachi for doing as well as he did.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 14:24

It was a good shot, MS.

Since you're an active LH'er, do you want to take over my character for now?

No, its OK, I think there are a few avatars free, but I'll wait for confirmation from Simon.

Lucjan don't worry too much about the battle being lost, that only makes things more interesting. PBEMs get boring when you win every battle. The only way this could have been better would have been if Amulius had survived - then there would no doubt have been senate motions calling for my impeachment etc. Would have been fun ~:)

The key to the battle was the Chalkispedes who just refused to break allowing their 2nd line to arrive. That and my cavalry chasing multiple units of peltasts ~;)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-09-2006, 14:35

The key to the battle was the Chalkispedes who just refused to break allowing their 2nd line to arrive. That and my cavalry chasing multiple units of peltasts ~;)

You were warned about the 'killer skirmishers' in the FAQ. My objective analysis is that you were too reckless. I won quite easily when I played it yesterday, but I was lucky with my starting deployment. Yours was slightly less fortunate. Cavalry should never be used to fight it out, especially not with skirmishers.

Not that I am unhappy with the developments :laugh4: Now things are becoming a lot more interesting.

econ21

08-09-2006, 14:36

No, its OK, I think there are a few avatars free, but I'll wait for confirmation from Simon.

I thought we had several, but the only one I can find from the Org posts is Cornelius Saturninus. He is in Pella where we desperately need a Lower House general, so he is ideal. It might also throw you straight back into the fray, Mount Suribachi, if you are up for it. :sweatdrop:

The key to the battle was the Chalkispedes who just refused to break allowing their 2nd line to arrive. That and my cavalry chasing multiple units of peltasts ~;)

In RTR, the expletive deleteds just won't rout, not for a long time anyway. I don't know if you can believe it, but in Platinum the morale is actually toned from Gold. For a long time, I have been cautious about using cavalry against skirmishers - they run like cheetahs and if you do catch them, there is some wierd RTW bug whereby cavalry don't seem to get their charge bonus against retreating skirmishers. RTR just makes it more apparent, because cavalry's defence and attack is rather low. I generally use my slingers against peltasts - the range helps and the peltasts lack protective shields or armour. Often the AI uses peltasts badly so they seem like a nuisance but when used right, they can be devastating - as happened here.

Lucjan

08-09-2006, 14:45

I agree it makes it more interesting, but at the same time, a little frightening, what with having just lost Publius' legion too.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 16:15

OK, I'll take Saturninus then.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 18:01

You were warned about the 'killer skirmishers' in the FAQ. My objective analysis is that you were too reckless. I won quite easily when I played it yesterday, but I was lucky with my starting deployment. Yours was slightly less fortunate. Cavalry should never be used to fight it out, especially not with skirmishers.

It wasn't that I was reckless, I just lost track of my cavalry and before I knew it they were halfway down the mountain, in a wood, fighting 3 units of peltasts.

I no-longer play with the pause button (except for screenies) - I weaned myself off it a long time ago on MTW in order to make the game more challenging. In RTW where things happen so much quicker, a few seconds inattention and before you realise, you've lost a unit. In a big battle like this one with lots of units to control its :juggle2:

econ21

08-09-2006, 19:29

Playing without a pause button takes a brave man. RTR was supposed to slow things down and there was a time when the units moved like they were stuck in treacle, but more recently, they set a pretty brisk pace. Often the infantry are tough enough that you still have time. But cavalry and missiles can get into trouble really quickly if left unsupervised (I lost the equites with the eagle in my replay of the Massilia Ford without even noticing it, which was kind of lame as I was fighting the battle to see what happened to the eagle).

I wonder where we are on the issue of Legion names? Legio VI - the cursed legion has quite a nice ring to it. We normally give legions both a geographic name, to denote where they are supposed to have been recruited, and an honorific if something interesting happens to them. Legio VI could be said to be recruited in Greece or even Macedon, as I suspect we started occupying Greek and Macedonian settlements around the time it was spawned. So we could have "Legio VI - Macedonica Excrabile" or "Legio VI - Graecia Excrabile". I have a slight preference for the former, as the Macedonians were the one to do it in and the name might be taken as a slight on them as much as the Legion. Alternatively, we could just let the Legion die in nameless obscurity, as I think Augustus did with the 3 he lost in the Teutoberg forest.

BTW, we should keep an eye out on Legio V and Legio IV to see if they do anything worthy of an honorific.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-09-2006, 19:46

The problem is of course the game mechanics. The next legion banner to appear will be the Legio VI and I can hardly leave it withering away in Rome. The same goes (much more so) for the Consular Army I banner.
It will be quite some time before we see another Consular Army banner. We have about four candidates for Praetor, but as they are all lower house senators and we have way too few of them, they never get the time to get the former Legate trait. The only one who is ready to advance at the moment is FLYdude. The other candidates are X-danger, TinCow and myself, but they are all in the field continuously. It is a problem I intend to reticify, but not much luck so far.
Historically, several legions were disbanded and reformed later (not sure about the defeated ones, but you are right about Varus's legions), so as it is now, I intend to use the banner when it appears.
I hope more people come forward with good names, also for the Legio IV and V.

On gameplay, I generally play with pause off, but I often pause to get a good screenshot. In extremely confused battles, in the woods for example, I sometimes pause to figure out who is who, as I play without banners.
I once tried to play from the generals view, but that's almost impossible.

econ21

08-09-2006, 20:57

I was thinking it would be fun to let Legio VI respawn and the (un)lucky new Legate to inherit it - it could well be me? - would take it as a rather unpromising omen. It would be a great role-playing opportunity: commanding a cursed legion.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 22:15

Simon, what are the English translations of those suggested titles of yours?

Is the Phoenix part of Roman or Greek mythology? Might be an apt piece of symbolism for the reconstituted Legio VI. In a semi-related aside, one of my dads squadrons when he was in the RAF was 56 squadron whose badge is a Phoenix rising from the flames, and whose moto is Quid si coelum ruat -, 'What if heaven falls?'

I'm trying to remember the regiments and their names, but there is one British army regiment who wear their badge on the front and rear of their caps in recognition of a battle long ago where the regiment next to them broke and ran and so the had to fight to both the front and rear and their nickname reflects this. Equally the regiment that broke and ran has some equally derogatory nickname. Aaarghgh, stupid brain, can't remember the details. Duke Malcolm or Banquo's Ghost might now.

Just throwing ideas around ~:)

btw, DDW, Hurin Rules has helped me with latin in the past. Being a professor of Medieval History and all ~:)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-09-2006, 22:35

btw, DDW, Hurin Rules has helped me with latin in the past. Being a professor of Medieval History and all ~:)

Those are interesting ideas. I really like the Phoenix idea. I should have taken the latin and Greek courses when I had the chance, but I was to busy doing, well, basically everything except studying. Rember kids, go to school or you will end up as a software engineer ! :laugh4:
Can you believe my aunt, at 83 took up the study of Greek and, at 86 has become a fluent speaker and Classics expert ??? :bow:
So there's hope for me yet :laugh4:

econ21

08-09-2006, 22:41

Simon, what are the English translations of those suggested titles of yours?

Excrabile is Latin for cursed; Macedonica and Graecia are Macedonian and Greek.

So it would be something like "The Cursed Sixth Macedonian Legion" or "Macedonian Legion VI: The Cursed". When we translate the names into English, I start to see Tiberius's objection to combining geographic and honorific titles.

I actually like the Phoenix idea better; more optimistic. Two defeats does not make a curse. Half a dozen or a dozen, maybe. (In which case, we could name them after the Star Trek extras, Legio VI: The Red Shirts)

PS: Last time we discussed this, I think we agreed naming was the First Consul's perogative although it could be overridden by a Senate vote if there was controversy.

Mount Suribachi

08-09-2006, 22:42

lol.

oh, and I'm loving the trial. Its like the backroom - insults, no-one actually answering questions posed to them. Good stuff ~:)

GeneralHankerchief

08-09-2006, 23:16

Good God I missed a lot while away. Sorry to hear about the loss, Mount. I have yet to venture into the Senate deliberations but I can only imagine that it caused an uproar.

BTW, Tribune Marcellus Aemilius is ready for duty. :eyebrows:

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-09-2006, 23:51

Welcome back GeneralHankerchief,

Just in time as well, a battle might break out any second in Massilia :laugh4:

TinCow

08-10-2006, 00:00

I understand that it would slow down the game a bit by having an emergency session, but we did specifically allow for this in the original rules

(6) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.

So I suppose that means that The Speaker (econ21) must voice his opinion on the matter one way or another.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-10-2006, 00:07

I don't really understand what the senators have to vote on ? The trial is not finished as I understand it. The Pontifex Maximus can utter his decrees and woe on those who ignore his auguries. But do we really want to the game now ? I'm okay either way, but just do not understand.

p.s. Hang 'm High !

TinCow

08-10-2006, 00:22

I would push for a vote to not allow Rome's armies (except the one going to Gergovia) outside our current borders until the Eagle is recaptured. Of course, since this is a religious matter and econ21 controls both the Pontifex Maximus and the Speaker, perhaps he could simply make a decree that has force of law and must be obeyed. That could achieve a similar result without the slowdown of a vote. He could also just have the Speaker tell Verginius to go to hell, since he's the only one that can call an emergency session.

Avicenna

08-10-2006, 03:50

econ: I think there was a Legion called Achaea, as the place wasn't called Greece at the time, it was just the people who were known as the Greeks.

EDIT: These people have been very inactive, and holding characters. I think their characters should be made free for others to take for now, until they come and post here. DoH is definitely not in this, after a few people PM'ing him to come back and the fact that he posted in the org today. Shifty seems to have too much mod work to do, so Publius will be wasted if he is not used. I dont have any recollection of YAKOBU, ZW, Mediobogdum, Wishazu or Zalmoxis posting for inactivity, or posting/voting in the WotS.
Inactives
shifty157
YAKOBU
Zomby_Woof
Destroyer of Hope
Mediobogdum
Wishazu
Zalmoxis

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-10-2006, 09:21

Let us not be hasty. Econ21 is monitoring their activity. I say whenever we need a new avatar the senator with the lowest activity loses his.

econ21

08-10-2006, 09:46

If anyone wants an avatar or wants to change an avatar, let me know. I think all active players have one but we can reassign avatars from inactive Senators if a need arises. We have a fair number of young 'uns in the pipeline, so I don't forsee a problem from now on.

TinCow

08-10-2006, 12:06

Regarding Legio VI, we definitely have to keep using it since the banner will come back and we'll need it. I also agree with the idea of giving it a name based on these events, especially because it lacked a name before now. However, I suggest that we hold off on giving it a glorious name until it actually redeems itself. I would suggest a cursed name (or informal nickname) for Legio VI until that time. I would also suggest that any players with avatars that have religious traits, especially superstitious ones, try to avoid service in Legio VI until it has been redeemed.

Regarding inactive players, specifically shifty157, I don't think anyone would want to take Publius Laevinus at all at this point! I expect him to be stuck in some minor city until he dies of 'natural' causes.

Dooz

08-10-2006, 12:11

I suppose this might be unlikely, given that my character is only 17, but he fits the non-religious type needed for the legion if there aren't any other active, available lower house generals.

TinCow

08-10-2006, 12:16

Yep, might be an excellent way to get command of a full Legion early... be the only one who would accept the role!

Dooz

08-10-2006, 12:21

Indeed! Hmm... I believe I'll write up a little something in the deliberations thread, wether or not I'll actually get command or not, for RP's sake.

TinCow

08-10-2006, 12:24

You've got time anyway, the banner won't appear until someone new is promoted to Legate.

Dooz

08-10-2006, 12:30

Yes, I'll have time to continue my studies in Rome for a while until everything is set. Well, I'll leave that up to the senate.

Mount Suribachi

08-10-2006, 12:44

Oh, I dunno, a superstitious general commanding Legio VI makes things much more fun ~;)

Lucjan

08-10-2006, 13:16

There's always the prospect of fulfilling Amulius Coruncanius's last desire, that the legion become immortalised, in which case I believe The Legio VI could take on the name Legio Immortalis, and become Rome's version of a crack legion that cannot die. Specific rules for it's upkeep and construction...like it must be constituted of the same number and type of Roman units that it was first defeated with, (however the auxilia that participated would not fall under this rule, that would be impossible) the Roman units must have at least 3 chevrons to be elligable for service with the Legio Immortalis, the Legio Immortalis can combine depleted units to create one full stocked unit (but cannot retrain units as it would deplete their chevrons and make them unelligble).

Something like this would be interesting.

Dooz

08-10-2006, 13:27

That does indeed sound very interesting Lucjan, although I don't know how feesible that would be logistically. Or maybe it won't be as complicated as I think. In any case, it's something to definately keep in mind.

Lucjan

08-10-2006, 13:42

Considering that troops do move a significantly further distance in rtrpe than they do in vanilla, it shouldn't be too difficult of a theory to turn into practice. The Persians did this historically with the army they had named the "Immortals". The army was invariable kept up to strength no matter the cost, never less and never more than 10,000 men served in the army, and it became feared as unbeatable solely because of the fact that no matter how many may have been killed, the next time the army was fielded, there were already 10,000 of them again.

Dooz

08-10-2006, 13:54

Again, in theory it's a great idea and I'm all for it. However, I don't know how likely it would be that whoever is playing the game can pull it off. If the legion is in a battle zone somewhere and after a battle, losses are incurred, it wouldn't make sense to withdraw the entire legion to a city where all the units can be retrained, then brought back taking a lot of time. There might be the need to fight other armies in the area before retraining, or even on the way to back to retraining. However, if the general idea is kept a bit more loose, and we can simply retrain units only for this legion, but not necessarily before every battle, then it should be fine but it'd lose some of it's point. In any case, I'm for it if a conclusion is reached as to how to manage it.

Lucjan

08-10-2006, 14:16

Nobody said anything about retraining it before every battle, all I was talking about was a bit of an historical aside regarding the Persians. The point behind the Legio Immortalis was that it'd be the only legion the consul did not have to have the pre-approval of the senate to restore the strength of. And retraining is against the rules of the game without senatorial approval. The point would be to maintain a standard of at least 3 chevrons experience for the least experienced units in the legion, and combining depleted units to make one full one to maintain the chevron increases from experience.

EDIT - My thoughts on maintaining the same army composition (excluding auxilia) is for rp, out of respect for the original Legio VI. I also feel only an experienced general of at least Legate rank should be allowed to command the Legio Immortalis.

Dooz

08-10-2006, 14:47

Senators, I'm wondering if anyone could help me with something. In the campaign I'm currently playing, I've reached a dead-end crash at the end of my turn. If anyone has any knowledge of the mod and might have some idea how to figure out what's causing it, I'd really appreciate any help. The crash only happens with the script on. It happened last turn, I reloaded and ended without script, and it was fine. Now at the end of this turn it's happening again. I'm assuming it might have something to do with a trait or somesuch? Anyhoo, here's the save file in case anyone will take a look.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Rome-crash.zip

*edit*
Uh oh, it's actually crashing without the script activated now too... Anyone have any ideas? It happens right when I press end turn. What are the immediate functions that happen when pressing it? Building being completed, cities rebelling, traits gained? ~:( So sad, was having a great campaign.

econ21

08-10-2006, 14:52

Wonderland - thanks for the battle report; I liked the screenshots in particular. But please can you reduce them in size to 75%? That way, the pagination of the thread will not be affected for readers using conventional settings. Cheers. :2thumbsup:

Dooz

08-10-2006, 14:57

Oops, sorry. I reduced them in Paint to 65% and it didn't change the pagination for me, thought it was fine. I don't know what you mean by 75%, could you explain what to do exactly?

*edit*
There also seem to be larger images higher up in the thread. Are you sure mine are too big?

econ21

08-10-2006, 15:10

Oops, sorry. I reduced them in Paint to 65% and it didn't change the pagination for me, thought it was fine. I don't know what you mean by 75%, could you explain what to do exactly?

Actually, forget it - I was being anal. They don't really push the page width off my screen (they get right to the edge). Whatever you did to the first screenshot (the campaign map one) was pretty much perfect. The others are a bit bigger, but not so much to worry about. :thumbsup:

(The 75% rule is what I learnt from Ludens: personally, I take screenshots with fraps and then resize them to 75% using Irfanview.)

Dooz

08-10-2006, 15:19

Heh, all righty. I take screenies with fraps too, just didn't know about Irfanview. I was resizing with paint. I'll check it out though if it's a batch resizer/converter, come in handy.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-10-2006, 16:15

I like your idea, Lucjan, but for a first consul it would be a logistical nightmare.

Csargo

08-10-2006, 16:35

I've been reading all the stuff that you and everyone else have been doing and I gotta say good job to all of you its very fun to read.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-10-2006, 17:13

Why thank you :laugh4:
You're always welcome to join as an upper house senator.

Csargo

08-10-2006, 18:18

I'de be happy too what would I have to do?

econ21

08-10-2006, 18:36

The Upper House Senators debate in the Senate Deliberations thread and vote in the periodic elections and on motions. You will be assigned an in-game character as your general (avatar) in due course.

If you want to fight any battles your general gets in or if you want to run the Republic as First Consul, you need to be a the Lower House Senator. Basically that means you have to install the mod so that you can load up and play out savegames.

The FAQ thread gives the gory details, but it's pretty simple really and we make most things up as we go along.

Csargo

08-10-2006, 18:55

I'de be happy to debate and vote on things but I would rather not fight any battles.

econ21

08-10-2006, 19:08

OK, I'll assign you to the Upper House. Just passby the Throne room every couple of days and keep up on the threads. The First Consuls's report gives the overall narrative; the Senate Deliberations thread is where policies are made. Every 10 turns, we have 3 day formal Senate sessions which lead to 1 day of voting - I send people PMs to alert them of when they begin.

Csargo

08-10-2006, 19:14

Alright econ thanks looking forward to getting into this.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 00:57

Check out the way my lines are almost broken in my last battle (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1213132&postcount=31). I love the way mass is handled in RTR 1.5. These guys almost broke my line by sheer weight ! :laugh4:

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 01:37

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 01:41

You mean retrain ?

TinCow

08-11-2006, 01:41

That would violate present game rules and so must be approved by 2/3 vote of the Senate. Propose it as legislation at the interrim session.

Dooz

08-11-2006, 01:42

Ok..so how about we do away with the huge experience requirements and the same army design and just have the Legio Immortalis be the only legion in the Republic that the consul doesn't require senatorial approval to reinforce.

Agreed. I think it's pretty necessary at this point in time too, gameplay-wise. We're running thin on troops and it'd be nice to be able to retrain at least one legion freely, not to mention the great RP aspect of it.

*edit*
Ah indeed, it shall be voted on.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 02:01

GeneralHankerchief

08-11-2006, 02:38

Ahh, this is what happens when there is an unbalanced ratio of younger Romans to older ones.

I must say, this feels great from a RPing perspective. Get into a flame war with another Senator. Can't wait until we all get older. Too bad that there's no Civil War in RTR.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 02:44

>.< Maybe we should just drop the ideas surrounding the Legio Immortalis and just give it the fancy name, I'd rather not stir up unneeded troubles or confusion.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 11:02

Not retraining, that would violate present game rules, my idea was that depleted units could be combined and new units raised to replace the ones needed to bring the unit back to full strength. Not retraining.. >.< Either way I think it needs a vote.

This is happening continuously already and is allowed by the rules. The trick is to to merge unarmoured units into armoured ones or units with high experience. I personally am against retraining, except perhaps if it is a of a unit that can be trained at the settlement in question.

Note to everyone :
Make sure you merge the ships in a fleet after each battle. Make especially sure the leftmost ships are up to strength. I believe the second ship in the list is the commander's ship.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 12:46

Oh, I see, I wasn't entirely aware of that (I was under the assumption that unit merging and conscripting had to be senate approved in terms of "reinforcing" or "restoring" a legion to full strength, correct me if I'm wrong.). On a personal note I too am completely against retraining. Retraining is evil, bad, bad mojo.

I still like the name Legio Immortalis though.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 13:47

When the banner reappears, which should happen the moment I assign a bannerless legate to a decent-sized army, we will hold a competition with names and let people vote, how's that. In fact, let's do that at the next senate meeting, 4 turns away now.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 14:12

:2thumbsup:

econ21

08-11-2006, 15:26

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the length of a First Consul's tenure? I think I originally went with 5 years because 20 turns seemed to be the best length for a traditional PBM. Long enough to achieve something really substantial, but hopefully not long enough to burn out on.

But this is not a traditional PBM - with generals fighting their own battles, I've noticed savegames can be loaded about 6 times or more for a given season. This will tend to make the incumbent player's "turn" last a lot longer, making it a more long term demand on their time. The actual playing time might not be longer, but the period their involvement spans is greater and they have more administration.

I'd be particularly interested to hear what past First Consuls think - DDW, TinCow and FLYdude. Was it too long for you? I don't have a good sense of it because I went first when the Republic was small and greedily fought most of the battles myself. DDW this time said he needed a pro-consul, although that might just be because of the holidays, and I remember TinCow making some remark suggesting his reign was rather onerous.

The obvious alternative length would be to halve it, to 10 turns. That would not mess up our Senate session schedule.

Any opinions? I'm just talking about the future - I have no intention of intervening with DDW and Mount Suribachi's current reign.

Mount Suribachi

08-11-2006, 17:11

I think its a good point Simon. I think it might encourage more people to run for Consul as well.

I would be happy to see this change at the next mid-point, only because speaking from a pure RP POV I'm a little uncomfortable about Saturninus being co-consul. I would be much happier with a new set of elections then - depending on how close DDW is to going away.

As for Legio VI, as the late Amulius, I don't really like the name Immortalis. He didn't think he was immortal, he had a Cromwellian, Providentialist belief that he had been chosen by the Gods to perform special acts on their behalf. Unfortunately he was wrong (the jury is still out on Cromwell ~;) )

Mount Suribachi

08-11-2006, 17:58

*Paging the Senate fixer*

My RTR works fine for loading savegames, but I just decided to start a new H/H campaign as Rome, and it won't let me. When I select Rome and click on the "start campaign" button it takes me back to the previous screen, the "campaign/historical battle/custom battle screen"

Help!!

econ21

08-11-2006, 18:02

Yes, I had that problem - it comes from installing the 1.9.3 4tPY mod over the MN one. To solve it, get the descr_strat.txt file from the latter mod and use it instead. The FAQ installation notes explain this and tell you where to get the descr_strat.txt file (it's on the Org PBM uploader) and the subdirectory to put it in.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 18:02

Yes, you have installed 4TPY 1.9.3 haven't you ? You need to replace a text file with the one that gets created by the M&N mod. This can be found in the FAQ I believe, or else several pages back.

EDIT : It's a tie between econ21 and DDW :)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 18:07

As to the limit of consulships, with the empire growing all the time, 2.5 years now is as long as 5 year at the start (or even longer).
I advocate smaller timespans, and more limited goals for the consuls. That is why I went for co-consulship this time. This way we could set long term goals, but would not be required to play the entire 5 game years. I still greatly favour the co-consulship idea, but I also see no problems with consuls who want to take the burden of five years. Can't the two system exists alongside ?
If Mount Suribachi does not want to be co-consul that is no problem, then we'll have early elections. It does seem right, seeing that Amulius got killed and all, and that his new avatar hasn't been officially elected.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 20:27

Perhaps a singular consulship election with a reigh of 2.5 years and a co-consulship election with a reign of 5 could be in order? What I mean is the senators, whether choosing to run singularly or with a co-consul, could be running for variable amounts of time according to their preference, solely by choosing to run with or without a partner.

EDIT - And as for the term Immortalis, that is derived from the speech Amulius gave before the battle, stating that the Legio VI would become immortal that day, forever remembered in the histories of Rome.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-11-2006, 20:43

I agree with you, Lucjan. We do want to offer the perspective of being first consul to all lower house senators within a reasonable span of time. As it looks now, with the fast progress I have been making, 2.5 years is still going to take 3 weeks or something thereabouts.
Historically, consuls were elected for a year if I recall correctly.

Mount Suribachi

08-11-2006, 20:45

Thanks guys, that worked ~:)

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 20:50

Yes, yearly consular elections....and to think I get frustrated having to look at those ugly 'vote for' signs for about 3 months every four years..

flyd

08-11-2006, 21:57

My Consular term was divided in two distinct parts. The first half took one or two weeks, as had been normal up to that point. In the second half, the Macedonians attacked, and there were 3-4 battles per turn and it took forever. I suspect the latter kind will be the norm from now on.

Strangely enough, I found the second half easier to play. Load savegame, click battle, send savegame. Takes 15 minutes. Then you're off doing other things, only having to occasionally check the org (like you wouldn't be doing that anyway). If anything is onerous, it's having to sit down and play through a few turns in one sitting. The second half was the easiest campaign I ever played. Didn't have to put in much concentrated effort, literally had days to make decisions, and I could send tiny armies against huge enemy stacks and count on heroic victories without putting in any effort. What more could you ask for? :laugh4:

The only problem is that it makes senate sessions, and especially senate elections, very sparse. So, I wouldn't be against reducing the term length. That's from a senate point of view; as far as the consul is concerned, I, at least, had no problems.

TinCow

08-11-2006, 23:27

I did not find my reign particularly difficult, but I didn't have anywhere near as many battles as FLYdude or DDW. Also, I get something of a kick out of all of the detail required by these things and I can find enough free time to devote to it for a couple weeks at a time to get it done. However, I fully understand that others don't have the desire or the ability to do the same. I have no problems with making it a 10 turn (2.5 year) Consulship, but I am still concerned that this isn't long enough for more than limited objectives and campaigning. Thus, I would like to request a change in the rules if we do this. I would like to suggest that we shortern the terms, but allow anyone to serve up to 2 terms in any 15 year period, including consecutive. Effectively, this is no different from our current system (5 year term + 10 year ban). However, this would allow people to do shorter, more dispersed single terms as well as serving a 5 year term like we have now. Just do well enough to get yourself re-elected and you've got the normal length Consulship if you want it.

Lucjan

08-11-2006, 23:41

I like Tincow's idea.

TinCow

08-11-2006, 23:52

If anyone is curious where my comments in the Deliberations came from, the Lex Julia specifically laid out the punishments for adulty. Yeah, it's a good 250 years after our current game, but it's probably a good guide for what the mid-Republic thought as well.

123. The consequences of adultery (Paul, Opinions 2.26.1-8, 10-12, 14-17. L)
2.26
(1) In the second chapter of the lex Julia concerning adultery, either an adoptive or a natural father is permitted to kill with his own hands an adulterer caught in the act with his daughter in his own house or in that of his son-in-law, no matter what his rank may be.

(2) If a son under paternal power, who is the father, should surprise his daughter in the act of adultery, while it is inferred from the words of the law that he cannot kill her, still, he ought to be permitted to do so.

(3) Again, it is provided in the fifth chapter of the lex Julia that it is permitted to detain an adulterer who has been caught in the act for twenty hours, calling neighbours to witness.

(4) A husband cannot kill anyone taken in adultery except persons who are infamous, and those who sell their bodies for gain, as well as slaves. His wife, however, is excepted, and he is forbidden to kill her.

(5) It has been decided that a husband who kills his wife when caught with an adulterer should be punished more leniently, for the reason that he committed the act through impatience caused by just suffering.

(6) After having killed the adulterer, the husband should at once dismiss his wife, and publicly declare within the next three days with what adulterer, and in what place he found his wife.

(7) A husband who surprises his wife in adultery can only kill the adulterer when he catches him in his own house.

(8) It has been decided that a husband who does not at once dismiss his wife whom he has taken in adultery can be prosecuted as a pimp.

(10) It should be noted that two adulterers can be accused at the same time with the wife, but more than that number cannot be.

(11) It has been decided that adultery cannot be committed with women who have charge of any business or shop. [20]

(12) Anyone who has sexual relations with a free male without his consent shall be punished with death.

(14) It has been held that women convicted of adultery shall be punished with the loss of half of their dowry and the third of their goods, and by relegation to an island. The adulterer, however, shall be deprived of half his property, and shall also be punished by relegation to an island; provided the parties are exiled to different islands.

(15) It has been decided that the penalty for incest, which in case of a man is deportation to an island, shall not be inflicted upon the woman; that is to say when she has not been convicted under the lex Julia concerning adultery.

(16) Sexual intercourse with female slaves, unless they are deteriorated in value or an attempt is made against their mistress through them, is not considered an injury.

(17) In a case of adultery a postponement cannot be granted.

econ21

08-12-2006, 00:16

Just a note on the trial - Braden requested to me sometime back that he decide the verdict but then lay out options for punishment that the Senate vote on. I agreed - it may not be the role we are used to a judge taking, but it is probably better from a dramatic point of view. Think of it a bit like Kenneth Starr reporting on the Clintons to US Congress and the Congress deciding what to do about it.

On the length of office, given the experiences of past First Consuls, I think DDW may be right and we should be flexible - so people can stand for half a term or a full term; alone or with a pro-Consul. Whatever is convenient for the player concerned. I like TinCow's idea of no more than 5 years in any 15 year interval.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-12-2006, 01:30

Sounds good to me :2thumbsup:

Seems like there may be bad news for Manius in store. Well, Kydonia could really use a good governor. Oh wait, Manius is a horribly bad governor...errr...Melite ?

This however does not address the laws concerning traitors :book: :

A steep cliff of the southern summit of the Capitoline Hill, overlooking the Roman Forum, the Tarpeian Rock (rupes Tarpeia) was used during the Roman Republic as an execution site. Murderers and traitors, if convicted by the quaestores parricidii, were flung from the cliff to their deaths.

Perhaps a bit harsch ?

Dooz

08-12-2006, 02:34

I like the suggested Consul rules. The more flexible the better for any potential nominees. Will we be making it official with a vote come mid-term?

TinCow

08-12-2006, 04:58

Yes, I think we can go ahead and hold a full election this term as well as proposing this change in legislation. We can justify the election before the legislation passes by saying that the co-Consul died and thus a replacement is needed. I doubt the legislation will fail since we're all so far in favor of it, so from then on it will be perfectly legal.

Mount Suribachi

08-12-2006, 07:33

FlyDude, I really liked that last battle - would have been great from a game & RP standpoint if you had actually withdrawn when the weather turned nasty.

Dooz

08-12-2006, 08:01

FlyDude, I really liked that last battle - would have been great from a game & RP standpoint if you had actually withdrawn when the weather turned nasty.

Oh man, it would have been awesome. Retreated from the city, not capture it. Lots to talk about! But hell, I loved the battle anyways. Very nicely narrated and all.

flyd

08-12-2006, 08:02

Dooz

08-12-2006, 08:04

I know! But I wasn't actually paying attention to the weather during the battle. I noticed the change but didn't think much of it as usual. Only as I was writing the report did I notice that it was really dark and ominous, and remembered the stuff about the curse, especially regarding Bylazora. Ah well, I'll just have to keep a closer eye on omens in the future.

Ah, that totally makes sense. No biggie, you can always leave the city as you came, not a garrison or anything. That could still make some RP sense right...? Maybe it's not worth it though, if we could use the city.

x-dANGEr

08-12-2006, 10:51

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-12-2006, 11:22

How unfortunate. I hope your spirits will improve in time. There's not a lot I can do about the ghastly politics of our age, I regret, but we can hope.

This leaves me in a bit of a fix however, and so I will hand the avatar of Publius Pansa over to Lucjan, if he so desires. I hope you understand, x-dANGEr, that the show must go on. Should you desire to return at a later point he will be returned to you. All that's needed now is econ21 and Lucjan's approval.

Lucjan

08-12-2006, 12:38

Erh...I'm honored by the thought..but I've gotten really attached to Servius, being an avid RPer and all, I have a tendency to stick with characters to the end. :embarassed: Sorry but I'll have to pass on Publius Pansa.

Mount Suribachi

08-12-2006, 12:43

...

I just want to annouce my resignment from this incredible PBEM. I just don't feel like giving it it's right, and in fact, I can't.. Too many things to do nowadays, and with the ongoing bad politic situation in the world, one just doesn't have the spirit.. With sorrow I say it: Good bye.

Regards.

Sorry to see you go x-D, but I hope you will be back soon.

In other news, I'll take Publius Pansa if thats OK, and he'll make a much more logical co-consul than Cornelius Saturninus as well.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-12-2006, 12:50

Okay, that's all settled than. Do you want to take over as co-consul later or do we hold elections ?

For your entertainment :
I and my brother have just been trying to kickstart another car with a dead battery. Evidently, my brother had never been explained that the black cable is always minus. You'd be amazed how quickly your startcables melt and the amount of smoke (and the smell !) this generates. Then, to my total embaressment, I had to go and borrow another set of starting cables from my neighbour who had been watching the two stooges at work. It's going to be one of those kinda days :laugh4:

Lucjan

08-12-2006, 13:03

Sounds like a similar problem I had. I thought my battery had died so had somebody at work try to help me jump the battery, we tried three times and the car wouldn't start. Turns out my battery was fine, and after that probably supercharged. The issue was a stuck fuel injector, all I had to do was hit the gas when I turned the key and it unstuck itself. :oops:

econ21

08-12-2006, 13:06

I'm sorry to see you leave too, x-dANGEr: you were a good contributor on the role-playing side and an impressive battlefield commander. :bow:

Mount Suribachi can take Publius Pansa. Mount never really had time to get used to Saturninus and Pansa is a natural pro-Consul (I think many of us assumed he would be First Consul under x-dANGEr).

On the issue of what happens in terms of an election at the coming mid-term, I would like DDW and Mount Suribachi to agree by PM with each other what they would like to be done and then announce it here. As far as I am concerned, we voted for DDW on the understanding that he may give up his powers to a pro-consul at his discretion for a period. I deliberately kept Amulius Coruncanius's name off the ballot box because I did not want to deal with how to divide authority between two players. So, I personally don't see why the death of Amulius Coruncanius and the substitution of Publius Pansa changes anything. But if DDW and Mount feel differently, then they can propose what they think best.

Lucjan

08-12-2006, 14:39

EDIT - There was a horror story here, I've since deleted it. :-p mwuahaha

Mount Suribachi

08-12-2006, 15:33

Uhhhh, sounds more confusing:dizzy:

TBH, right now we need every LH senator at the front line anyway. I'm happy to leave things the way they are.

econ21

08-12-2006, 16:14

A "provincial" system is an interesting idea and maybe workable, given that this PBM has showed it is possible to delegate fighting specific battles to other players and still keep the show on the road. But formalising it and implementing it would be tricky and is probably something best left to a future PBM. However, Senators in this PBM are encouraged to lobby for specific assignments and commands etc. It's probably easier to let the First Consul's deal with these on an ad hoc basis rather than an a whole new layer of complexity to the PBM rules.

TinCow

08-12-2006, 16:44

Urg... I just realized that doing elections every 10 turns will require full updates of the Library every 10 turns as well. While not that big a time difference, since the turns are taking twice as long as before, it will effectively double the number of screenshots in the Biographies. I hope people will forgive the load times.

Lucjan

08-12-2006, 17:10

Ok, then lets set the whole provincial idea off to the side for now. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

I'll go back and edit that out so it doesn't scare people! :oops: lol

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-12-2006, 17:11

Braden

08-12-2006, 22:10

Good news! have now posted my judgement and punishment options.

I have to admit that the judgement isn't as long as the origional draft, but as that was lost due to a computer crash I've done my best to re-capture its essence.

Please note that you can vote for any or ALL of the options available.

GeneralHankerchief

08-12-2006, 23:51

Since it's clear that I am going to assault Comata, if I may ask in advance what to do with the settlement once it is taken? Do I occupy, enslave, or exterminate? Thanks.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-12-2006, 23:59

Mount Suribachi is asleep now, so if you want to fight now, you can download the savegame and then upload it after the battle and inform Mount Suribachi.

My standing order to all generals :
If a town numbers more as 5000, enslave the population, unless it's one of our towns that we liberate of course :laugh4:

Savegame :
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/258-spr-1.zip

Mount Suribachi

08-13-2006, 09:50

I think we've generally used a rule (as the Romans) of no-enslavement/extermination especially of "civilized" cities (Greek, Roman) etc unless there's a good RP reason for doing so. Eg Illyria stabbing us in the back, thus incurring some good old fashioned Roman vengeful wrath ~:)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-13-2006, 14:14

I see things differrently. I've just finished reading Ceasar's Gaul campaigns (De Bello Gallico) and enslavement was the order of the day, regularly enslaving tens of thousands of people, or even entire tribes. An estimate of the number of slaves taken during this ten year campaign numbers around one million. Rome numbered around ten slaves for each citizen/freeman. There actually was ecessive slave taking in the Greece campaigns, as the civilized slaves were very valuable. The generals financed their careers and campaigns by enslaving the people they conquered.
Extermination is very extreme and rare in Roman history (no profit in it, see). I think it only happened on or two times, most notably of course Carthage.
Finally, I prefer it in game terms, as it is hard to subdue a conquered city numbering over 5000. Enslaving half the population will give us time to build stuff and generally reduce unrest.

Mount Suribachi

08-13-2006, 15:10

The mass enslavements Julius Caeser did in Gaul was only after Vercingetorix's rebellion - both as a punishment and to remove the rebellious population. But prior to that he had tried to Romanise Gaul relatively peacefully.

But you are right about Generals having the right to the profits from enslavements. IIRC Caeser gave the profits from the Gallic slaves to his legions as a reward (and to keep them loyal to him ~;) )

In game terms, I'm really wary of enslavement, ever since my first RTW game (as the Scipii) when I enslaved Syracause, and it led to uncontrollable, game-breakingly-out-of-control sqaulor in Carthage. Although I was in favour of it during the Gaulish expedition as the settlements in Cisalpine Gaul needed the population boost.

econ21

08-13-2006, 17:09

I've written up the infamous defeat at Massilia ford:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1202379&postcount=22

What I did was let the AI fight the battle against itself - I only commanded Publius and I kept him out of the fight; Manius and the army came up as reinforcements (allowing the Gauls to get across the ford unmolested). Watching the AI fight was quite interesting - despite all the negative comment, it did not seem that "dumb". It was particularly striking how decisive the general's cavalry were: the AI uses them as the hammer to the flank or rear just like we do. I think those 2 hit points/trooper may be a little overpowering, given the advantages of heavy cavalry anyway.

BTW, where do we stand regarding the mid-term, DDW and Mount Suribachi? Do we just go on as normal, no election? That would be my preference. Politically, not much has changed from before - indeed, with the most credible challenger Pansa being co-opted, I think Lucius Aemilius's position is stronger than ever.

TinCow

08-13-2006, 17:18

If DDW can continue playing after this session, I too would prefer that it continues without an election. However, if he wants to hand it off to Mount Suribachi, I believe we should have an election, if only to properly elect his new avatar to the position... unless no other Lower House senator has any wish to run.

Lucjan

08-13-2006, 18:17

I'd rather not slow the game up with an election if we can avoid it. Seems the easiest way to go.

Lucjan

08-13-2006, 18:20

Dooz

08-13-2006, 20:03

econ, I really liked that battle report of Massilia. Was this already done when the trial testimonies were made? I would have to assume so, considering everything was as described. Otherwise, it would be one hell of a weird coincidence...

Mount Suribachi

08-13-2006, 20:07

Me and DDW have agreed that after the mid-term, he will play until I have a battle, then I will take over and play till he has a battle, then he will play till etc etc.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-13-2006, 21:39

Excellent work on the battle, econ21 !
I agree that the AI is not so dumb at all, human players just never give it a chance to show its worth. Just play a battle lazily, especially on VH, and you will soon change your opinion.

As Mount Suribachi said, we have reached an agreement and I will send him an outline of my strategic plans, which are of course liable to change at any moment. We will agree or reach a compromise quickly. In play, I will back any decisions he makes during his control, and he will back mine (not formally agreed, but I can't imagine he'll refuse).

On the Gaul campaigns, Ceaser's work is of course a brilliant work of propaganda for the folks back in Rome. Many of his verbal tricks you can still see daily on CNN :laugh4: If you read between the lines you can see that he regularly enslaves thousands of people during his entire ten year campaign, culminating in the enslavement of over 50.000 people when Alesia falls. He cleverly conceals the slavetaking by talking around it or being vague, as the people of Rome would be annoyed that they weren't getting any of the take.

However, my standing order is withdrawn and I will give it explicitly in my battle order to the senators (unless I forget :laugh4:). Mount Suribachi can order them to occupy instead if he so desires.

TinCow

08-13-2006, 23:33

DDW, you don't think the Carthage AI will accept a ceasefire at all unless we give back all of their territories? My in-game suggestions certainly aren't in-line with my character's nature, but I felt they had to take a back seat to coming up with something that could realistically have a chance of success. There's no way that the AI will accept a ceasefire for 5,000 and trade rights so I don't see much point in trying. I've seen command lines that can force peace treaties between nations, but I've never been able to get them to work. If we could, perhaps we could agree on an amount to be given to them, then gift it to them and force the ceasefire via console.

econ21

08-13-2006, 23:45

Me and DDW have agreed that after the mid-term, he will play until I have a battle, then I will take over and play till he has a battle, then he will play till etc etc.

Sounds fine. We don't need an election.

BTW, in the FAQ, I've marked shifty157 aka Publius Laevinus and Destroyer of Hope aka Manius the Mad as "retired". Given what we have done to their characters, I doubt they'd want them back. :oops: I am also marking x-dANGEr as "retired" so that, like the other two, he has the option of returning and being given new characters as required.

We can be relaxed about other inactive Upper House members, as the Upper House by nature is a fairly informal arrangement, so people can pop by occaisionally.

BTW, with Mount taking over Publius Pansa, there's a very nice general available, Cornelius Saturninus, if anyone wants him - especially someone with eyes on the Lower House.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/260/cornelius_saturninus_260.jpg

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-14-2006, 00:00

Tincow, that is a possibility. I don't like to mess with the game, but the AI diplomacy is hopeless on VH. Personally, I feel we should conquer them (eventually) and not 'force' a ceasefire. I will however back your motion if it does not exceed 5000 gold pieces, as it will be a very long time before we are ready to take on Carthage. I have never tried that cheat code and not all of them work, so perhaps we'd better test that first.

I'd like the co-consul way of playing to be made legal, i.e. in the rules.

TinCow

08-14-2006, 00:20

I tried the console codes I found for diplomacy and they did not work for me. I read that you had to write a script to enable them and that was way out of my league.

I just had an idea though... we could use RomeSage to reduce the difficulty level to medium (or easy?) for just a moment, negotiate a ceasefire, then return it to VH. Wouldn't that work? They would almost certainly accept it then, even with only 5,000 offered.

flyd

08-14-2006, 00:31

I can't say I'm a big fan of trying to force the AI to accept a particular agreement, particularly from an in-game RP sort of perspective. If we reduce the difficulty for a deal with Carthage, then it makes it as if only Carthage is willing to negotiate while everyone else is out to kill us at all cost. If you apply equal standards for all nations, and reduce difficulty for every diplomatic deal proposed by us, then you'll get nations accepting ceasefires, and then, when we get back to VH, almost certainly attacking us with little delay. So, as silly as the AI is when it comes to diplomacy, I'd rather not mess with it.

TinCow

08-14-2006, 00:51

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-14-2006, 01:02

Well, the very lack of AI diplomacy is incredibly silly from a RP standpoint. There's only so much we can do when it's war 24/7 against everyone. Perhaps we could make a rule that would work with this. If we have not fought a single battle with a particular enemy in 10 game years, we can make peace with them for a reasonable sum.

Creative thinking. I am in FLYdude's camp, but this I can live with. Let's say ten years. War might not break out immediately again, as our lands are not adjacent at the moment.

Lucjan

08-14-2006, 01:26

Or there's always the potential of just changing the difficulty to H/H. Making up for the campaign difficulty change by upping the enemies morale a little with the battle difficulty.

Just a thought. At least on H Campaign difficulty the computer will accept proposals in their favor without having completely ridiculous demands.

flyd

08-14-2006, 01:43

"x number of peaceful years" would be an ok rule. I take it you mean only land battles? The last hostilities with Carthage were in 263. They blockaded a few ports and there was a small naval battle. I doubt they could last 10 years without doing silly things like that. Perhaps the rule could count the number of years since "a settlement changed hands by force".

That said, I doubt the peace would last anyway. We might not have a land border, but if one of their boats happened to pass near any attackable object, they'd probably attack. So, I don't quite see the point. Also, I think a raid on the African coast could be interesting. (Also, I don't like Carthage :laugh4: ).

Lucjan

08-14-2006, 05:27

(Psst, got a secret for you, we can tell. :laugh4: :2thumbsup: )

Dooz

08-14-2006, 06:30

I'm for playing the game on H/H as I think that allows for the closest to realistic as we can get kind of game. Battles usually are more competative and the strat map will have the benefits already mentioned. However, I don't think H campaign diplomacy would be much better than what it already is. In my current campaign, on M they won't accept ceasefies under ridiculous conditions so H will only be worse. But still, at least the AI won't get ridiculous amounts of cash.

I wouldn't push for it though, as a lot of people might not want to change the game mid-way. But it's something to think about as it does have some good advantages.

Lucjan

08-14-2006, 07:14

The change wouldn't be an enormous alteration when you really think about it. The majority of the people would only see the increase in the enemy morale on the battlefield, which could be justified in rp by one of two things. The strength of our very large neighbors being shown in battle by their troops being hardier than those of the factions we've fought before, or the desperation of our smaller neighbors (which we really don't have any of now that Gaul is being taken out as a bordering faction) to not fall to the same fate as the Greeks, Illyrians and Macedonians.

The battlemap change would affect our consuls, and could work in rp terms to represent Rome's growth as a nation into a significant power in the world, what with it's neighbors no longer having ridiculous amounts of money in their coffers compared to its own, monetary flow would be more stable, and H diplomacy, while still on the sketchy side, is more partial to acceptance than VH and could be workable if we play it the right way.

But again, like I said, it's all just food for thought.

It's a wonder how the Aemilii and Galerius can just turn that hatred switch on/off at the switch of a thread. :laugh4: Shows true rp spirit.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-14-2006, 09:37

As most people are aware, I have been railing for a change in difficulty levels for quite some time, so I'm all for it. I'd even go so far as to say M/VH. With this level of unexpected support, I suggest we put it to the (2/3 majority) vote the coming session. If a lower house senator absolutely does not want to change the difficulty levels, I hereby give him veto power. I will withdraw my proposal if any lower house senator desires so.

I also will add a rules change proposal (2/3 majority) that whenever a upper house senator gets involved in a battle, the first consul will NOT autoresolve, but give the battle to a lower house senator of his choice (preferable someone who has not had battles for some time). This has become a necessity in my view as I am forced to put legions on the frontline commanded by a upper house general. This problem will get worse as time progresses. This will also allow a competitive spirit among upper house members who want their avatar to gain military experience.

Braden

08-14-2006, 09:49

Having been on holiday for a week, I won't even attempt to try and catch up on the OOC happenings here but….

….I normally play on M/VH settings but I don’t know what the effect of these settings will have on the RTR mod we’re using.

…..My task for this week is to try and download ALL the mods (have two so far). This is a major task as we all know. After this, I’ll install them and have a go at the game itself (may limit myself to playing some custom battles) so I’m farmilar with it.

THEN….I can join the lower house!! Yay!

(now to get caught up with all the IC discussions)

econ21

08-14-2006, 10:14

I'm inclined to be conservative and stick with the current difficulty settings and rules. It seems that right now - as the Republic becomes stretched - we are getting to the point where things are looking competitive. The defeat at the ford was a result of the autoresolve rule and was characterful. We have about 6-7 Lower House generals - surely that's enough to cover the major bases? We even lost a full Consular army on medium difficulty, so I am not sure we need to go harder on the battles (just keep the armies lean like they are now). In terms of power, I think we are already way ahead of our rivals (e.g. Thrace had a lot of territory but was a bit of a damp squib) so they need the VH campaign to keep them pumped up. I've resigned myself to the lack of diplomacy - we are Rome, not the UN, and Carthage is going down sooner or later. :evil:

However, we can decide these things by 2/3 majority votes in the mid-term. I'd prefer to keep the out of character discussion on them in this thread rather than the Senate though.

One idea I had was to make the general's bodyguards have only 1 hit point each. I think we are becoming over-reliant on our regenerating uber-praetoria (at least I am!). It's very tempting to over-use them when there is an emphasis on minimising our casualties.

Edit: Braden, your joining the Lower House sounds good. I'll reserve Cornelius Saturninus for you.

Braden

08-14-2006, 11:58

Naughty Econ21! No biscuit!

….fancy relying on General units to win battles, and there you are with something in the rules stating that they shouldn’t be endangered (I think)….

…tisk, tisk. :laugh4:

Avicenna

08-14-2006, 12:10

I swear that that was part of someone-from-the-RTR-forum's guide of being a true Roman?

econ21

08-14-2006, 12:18

Naughty Econ21! No biscuit!

….fancy relying on General units to win battles, and there you are with something in the rules stating that they shouldn’t be endangered (I think)….

Oh come on, it's not just me - look at the screenshots in the battle reports, they're full of Praetoria hacking away! The 1HP idea really came home, though, when I watched the AI play out the battle of Massilia. The AI was using its generals just as aggressively and effectively as us[1].

Actually, I think the "true roman" idea of keeping your general safe idea may be over-done. My cursory reading of ancient history shows Roman generals as taking great pride in their hand-to-hand engagement and personal prowess in battles.

[1]On second thoughts, scrub the 1 HP idea. I'm worried it will make the AI generals even more suicidal. I'll try it out on one of my own games first.

econ21

08-14-2006, 12:53

Dooz

08-14-2006, 13:16

If the savegames aren't compatible then we won't be using it right (I don't have BI)? I don't mind keeping the difficulty as it is considering the points econ made. I'm kind of torn though to be honest, as H battles might be pretty interesting... but a lot more dangerous considering our situation... I don't know. Oh and I definately don't think 1HP generals is a good idea in any case.

Braden

08-14-2006, 13:17

Guys,

Any idea when the RTR main forums will be back up? Seem to have been down for a VERY long time (or am I looking in the wrong place)?

Dooz

08-14-2006, 13:17

Nope, right place Braden, they're just down.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-14-2006, 13:55

This may be one for DDW, but could we play this mod with the BI exe?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58291&page=1

I am not sure I follow the instructions, but so far as I can tell, they seem to involve just altering your BI shortcut.

I'm assuming the savegames are still usable by those without BI and that we would not have to alter any other files, but those are just assumptions.

The main benefit mentioned is that the AI is more aggressive in terms of naval invasions (Carthage trying to get its Iberian provinces back), which would be timely given our situation.

Maybe DDW can look into it?

It is rather unclear what this is about and the downloadlink is a dead link. BI 1.6 is supposed to be better at naval invasions, but we can alter that ourselves by editing the descr_strat.txt file. As I am not quite sure what this thread is talking about, I' m going to recommend against using this.
However, it might be worthwhile to look into the descr_strat.txt file.
We will not implement stuff that that only works if you have BI.

econ21

08-14-2006, 14:02

Ok, let's forget the BI.exe idea - the descr_strat file is only read at the start of a campaign anway.

I guess if Carthage is passive and does not try sea invasions, there will be compensation that it will be pretty pumped up by the time we land in Africa.

Dooz

08-14-2006, 14:18

Y'know, I wouldn't count on them being too passive, at least based on my current campaigns experience. Carthage was in the struggle for Iberia and was eventually kicked out, then before I knew it, somehow they had invaded and taken over all of Iberia in a matter of a few years. I'm pretty sure they were completely kicked out before that major invasion. They took the whole peninsula and kept moving north and east. Pretty interesting stuff. Of course, once they attacked my troops around Massilia, I had to wipe them out :2thumbsup: . So I suppose they have the capability to invade and do what they gotta do, hopefully they'll do so in our game.

GeneralHankerchief

08-14-2006, 15:28

Frankly, I wouldn't mind a superpower Carthage in the game. The situation with them game-wise is playing out pretty much historically with them losing their islands in the Mediterranean (pay no attention to the fact that Numidia no longer exists and that they have no Iberian territories).

I'd love to see terror in Rome due to the fact that the Carthies have brought, say, 3 full-stacks to Italy. :evil:

Lucjan

08-14-2006, 16:26

Braden

08-14-2006, 16:45

Senate Zip files?

(BTW - thanks for the offer of assistance Lucjan)

I should have all the files downloaded by the end of tomorrow – I have managed three files today and will finish the rest tomorrow but I have a question.

On the files I’ve downloaded today, I’ve had to rename them. I’ve manually added “.zip” on the end of the file name as they weren’t recognised by the computer otherwise.

Obviously, my question relates to this really – Was I wrong in renaming them? If I retain the new names will they not unzip correctly for example.

Tonight I have WoW updates to install so haven't the bandwidith to spare :wall:

Edit: Just realised that joining the lower house will mean the retirement of good old Decius Curtius......will be a sad day but fitting seeing as he's getting old now.

Mount Suribachi

08-14-2006, 17:32

All I'd like to add is that I believe we should keep the autoresolve rule non-LH generals. Defeats make the game so much more interesting.

And the "force peace if there are no land battles for 10 years" is an interesting proposal.

Dooz

08-14-2006, 19:37

I definately think non-LH senator battles should be autoresolved. It won't be cool for RP to suddenly play a different character for one battle. I'm also for the forced peace after some time, but I think 10 years is a bit too long. 5 years without hostilities is the entire length of a Consul's reign, and a long enough amount of time to consider peace I think.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-14-2006, 22:33

On the files I’ve downloaded today, I’ve had to rename them. I’ve manually added “.zip” on the end of the file name as they weren’t recognised by the computer otherwise.

Obviously, my question relates to this really – Was I wrong in renaming them? If I retain the new names will they not unzip correctly for example.

<Quote FAQ>
All files are 76 MB. The last one is 16 MB (Total : 76 * 6 + 16 = 472 MB).
The files have been zipped with WinZip, but any decent extractor will suffice I expect. The files are actually one (1) big zip file split into many parts. You need only unzip the file marked .zip (senate.zip) and it will unzip the other files. So just select the senate.zip file, right-click, and select ''extract to...'' and create a senate folder (or whatever).
<End Quote>

Yes, you were wrong in renaming them. If you have all the files in one folder and use WinZip to unzip the senate.zip file, it will automatically unzip all the others. It is actually one (1) big zip file split into many parts. Just follow the above instructions exactly and it should work. The other files should be called senate.z01, senate.z02, etc...
Good luck :2thumbsup:

Takes me back to the good old 1.44 MB disk days...

Braden

08-15-2006, 07:53

Ok, will remove the ".zip" suffix I've added to the files apart from the main Senate.zip (which I haven't touched).

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-15-2006, 08:44

Ok, will remove the ".zip" suffix I've added to the files apart from the main Senate.zip (which I haven't touched).

The renamed zip files need to be given thier original .z01, .z02, etc extension or it will not work.

Braden

08-15-2006, 09:29

Yeah. All I'd done was add .zip on the end of the file extensions so I've removed that now leaving the extension name as was downloaded.

Good news, I have all of the files now on CD. Fingers crossed I can install it all correctly and get a working version of our Mod this week.

More WoW downloads tonight so no free PC time........again. *sniff*

Divinus Arma

08-15-2006, 10:15

This looks like fun. I'll need to figure out a gaming comp here sooner or later. :2thumbsup:

Mount Suribachi

08-15-2006, 12:02

Even if you can't play DA, you can still join as an upper house senator. This means you get to debate whats going on and propose and vote on motions in the Senate Deliberations thread.

Braden

08-15-2006, 12:25

This looks like fun. I'll need to figure out a gaming comp here sooner or later. :2thumbsup:

- I've had many weeks of fun just debating and making laws in this campaign. I highly recommend it if only for its ability to include even those unable or not willing to actively play the in-game campaign.

Lucjan

08-15-2006, 13:22

Braden if your cd doesn't work I have a single file format for each of the mods you need, eliminating the headache of those seperated zip files.

Braden

08-15-2006, 13:36

Braden if your cd doesn't work I have a single file format for each of the mods you need, eliminating the headache of those seperated zip files.

Thanks, I’ll PM you if I have a problem and need those files.

StoneCold

08-15-2006, 18:29

Just for fun and RP, is there anyway to trigger a disaster, somewhere near where Galerius Vatinius is? I mean after the comment he makes in the Senate, the Gods should have some reaction right?

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-15-2006, 19:18

Hilarious idea, but I don't think that is possible :laugh4:

Braden

08-15-2006, 21:48

Ok, can I just say "Oh feck the Gods are angry at ME!".....seems my computer woes are not fixed. The PC runs ok and will surf the net but freezes in games....any game...*sniff*....how utterly hacked off I am now! Just a Knats whisker from joining the lower house and I find my problems haven't been sorted.

.....anyone want a Geforce 6200 graphics card? (gotta laugh or I'll cry! No, actually, I will go and cry.)

Lucjan

08-15-2006, 23:14

TinCow

08-15-2006, 23:30

Mount Suribachi, that is easily the funniest thing I have read in a long, long time.

econ21

08-16-2006, 00:16

Excellent write-up, TinCow! :2thumbsup:

I wonder, is there any in-game representation of the rescue of an eagle? I know Publius got the "disgraced" trait for losing it (very characterful) and recall from the WRE PBM you can get a nice trait for taking an enemy one.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-16-2006, 00:26

Yes, if you are the one that lost it that is. Then you are slightly redeemed or something. If you manage to bag another one, your are partly redeemed or something. But the stain never wears off...
Non-roman faction, I think only barbarains ones, get eagle taker and upwards.

TinCow

08-16-2006, 01:45

I did not see any pop-up or other indication of any kind that the Eagle had been retaken. Verginius did not get a trait either.

Dooz

08-16-2006, 08:28

TinCow, that was an excellent battle report, I absolutely loved it. Wowee.

econ21

08-16-2006, 10:15

Following from Lucjan's now deleted suggestions, I have been wondering about giving governors more power. Could we let them set the build order for "their" city or cities? The First Consul would not have to authorise the funds, but if anything was to be built, it would be what the governor decides. The main benefit is giving non-reigning players a little bit more to do, perhaps getting the Upper House Senators more involved in the PBM again. It might also give older Lower House Senators something to do in retirement. The cost would be that the First Consul would have to liase with them on what was built, what could be built & they may not agree. This could be done once every Senate session. If the relevant player does not respond (e.g. within 48 hours), then the First Consul can do what they like.

Essentially, we would be formalising the roles of each character more. In the first Consul's report, we could have a table with each character's name and their assignment. Possible assignments would be:

Student
Commander - ideally of a named formation (Legio, Field Army)
Sub-commander - second general of a named formation
City governor - runs one city
Provincial governor - runs a group of cities (e.g. Sicily; Greece etc)

The table might also include the intended task for the next 10 turns - ie build orders for cities; destination/area of operation for military formations.

We seem to have already moved to formalising military roles; I am basically proposing creating some civilian equivalents. Formalising the roles might make the characters more significant and open up more scope for politicking (Senators will start to lobby for funds for their provinces etc). It might also make the job of being Consul more interesting, as you have to consider the wishes of other players and think in terms of long term assignments, rather than just moving avatars around willy-nilly from turn to turn.

The Provincial governor idea is that as the Republic grows, we might be able to mark out large chunks of territory that could be handed over to senior Senators to manage. For example, at the end of this reign, we will have four aging "super" ex-Consuls (DDW, TinCow, FLYdude & Pansa) with very high influence. While individuals might be elected Consul again, during that time the others should probably be given some juicy responsibilities. For example, if it were conquered, Verginius could be given Gaul to manage (god help the Gauls). A provincial governor might also become a commander in the event that their "province" was invaded etc. Provincial governorships may be best suited to lower House members as they can load up savegames and meaningfully explore build options for a number of settlements.

I'll let DDW and/or Mount Suribachi decide whether they want try something for the second half of their reign. I would give it a go if I ever got elected.

Dooz

08-16-2006, 10:38

Very interesting ideas econ. If possible to do without making turns too long, I'm all for them.

Braden

08-16-2006, 10:48

That's worrying TinCow, normally a popup would tell you that you've retaken the Eagle......could just be a glitch but we ought to check that the Eagle hasn't been "spirited away" somewhere else.

Also, ONE lousy experience upgrade to the Princeps for killing 370 foes!! What's that all about??

I would have expected a tad more for a kill ratio of 52.8 : 1 - wouldn't you?

Mount Suribachi

08-16-2006, 11:07

Can't say I do, but for $75 American and shipping I'll send you my radeon x1300pro. I've been looking to upgrade to a x1600, but don't want to lose all the cash I spent on the x1300 only two months ago.

I have a Sapphire Radeon X700pro and I've been very impressed with it, good value too at £100 a year ago. I'd definately get another in the range if and when I upgrade

TinCow, outstanding write-up. Love the way you sent in a single cohort to take on the Gauls ~:)

Mount Suribachi

08-16-2006, 11:11

Also, ONE lousy experience upgrade to the Princeps for killing 370 foes!! What's that all about??

I would have expected a tad more for a kill ratio of 52.8 : 1 - wouldn't you?

They were only Gauls ~;)

As for your ideas Simon - uhhhhhh, too complicated for me :dizzy2: I certainly wouldn't want to be Consul having to organise all that. I think we have to strike the right balance between keeping everyone involved and keeping the game going. Right now I'm happy with the balance.

econ21

08-16-2006, 11:26

OK, let's leave it the initiative of the incumbent First Consuls. They can organise things as they like, within reason.

TinCow

08-16-2006, 12:11

That's worrying TinCow, normally a popup would tell you that you've retaken the Eagle......could just be a glitch but we ought to check that the Eagle hasn't been "spirited away" somewhere else.

I've never retaken an Eagle before because I've never lost one. Have you seen this pop-up personally?

TinCow, outstanding write-up. Love the way you sent in a single cohort to take on the Gauls ~:)

I was originally planning on using the Principes as a pinning force and then flanking through the gate, but they were doing so well that I just let them keep butchering. I actually had to rush the end game because the timer was running low. The gatehouse fight took so long that the next time I looked at the timer it was at 11 minutes!

I was lucky that Drustan came out of the square to fight my general too. He was patrolling around as we advanced but moved into a stationary position when the army got near. It was only when I moved my general alone next to the square that he came out, so that part of the story wrote itself.

Braden

08-16-2006, 12:28

TinCow - I'm sure I have had a message when I've taken a settlement where one of my eagles was taken (I'd autoresolved and lost an eagle at one point), can't remember what the message was though now.

Not an ATi fan - Nvidia all the way! :dizzy2: - going to try and see if the latest drivers solve my problems......I know the latest drivers have a bug meaning my Media Player wont work but thats a small sacrifice if I can get to play my GAMES! :furious3:

Back on subject - Personally, the main issue I can see with more players being more involved directly (as suggested as Governors) is that it will eventually slow the progress of the game down to an absolute crawl AND many players will look at the extra work involved as Consul and just not bother to offer themselves up for election.

Its a game, we've kept it fun whilst involving so far. I'd err on the side of not adding in TOO much work for Consuls to do.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-16-2006, 12:59

I would give it a go if I ever got elected.

You can never start you campaign too early. :laugh4:

More constructive comments will follow eventually, rest assured

Lucjan

08-16-2006, 13:12

O.o Sorry. lol. Look what I started.

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2006, 15:32

First off, excellent battle report TinCow! All of a sudden Comata looks anticlimatic.

Second, is there any way we could test recovering Eagles? I was thinking perhaps we load up a late savegame from the WRE PBM and have one of the generals lose an Eagle, then try to get it back.

Anyway, there's only one place that Gaul could have taken the Eagle now. :dizzy2:

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-16-2006, 16:17

I don't think you get a message unless it is the general that lost it who recoveres it.

Dooz

08-16-2006, 22:54

DDW, did the Iberians really offer a gift of denarii on their own? I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-16-2006, 23:02

They suddenly realised they were on hostile territory with a puny army. Rest assured, they have reinforced that army and no new offers will arrive, I suspect. I was as suprised as you were. Almost forgot to take a screenshot :laugh4:

Dooz

08-16-2006, 23:03

Wow, I guess there is some semblance of diplomacy in the game afterall. Very interesting.

Divinus Arma

08-17-2006, 04:45

So I can play even though my comp is fried? Count me in. :2thumbsup:

econ21

08-17-2006, 09:08

Welcome, Eclectic! I'll put you in the Upper House, so you can play with a fried computer. The key thing is to participate in the Senate Deliberations thread, debating the next steps of the Republic and keeping the First Consuls under a tight leash. We have 3 days to propose and second motions; voting will start 6pm UK time on Saturday.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 09:12

Welcome Eclectic ~:wave:

Glaucus

08-17-2006, 15:43

Hey everyone. I am glad to see this campaign is still going after my vacation. I was suprised at how mumch of the map is red compared to my last visit, when all we had in Greece was Apollonia. Well done all.

I've skimmed the last few first consul reigns and the current deliberations thread. The only thing left to do is ask this: are there any avatars I can have? I am ready to dig back into this campaign ASAP. In the meantime, I hope it's okay if I start debating right now, I don't think I can wait any longer...

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 15:47

Welcome back Glaucus ! ~:wave:
We have plenty of avatars available.
Errr, Mount Suribachi is playing Publius Pansa at the moment...errr...Econ21 ?

econ21

08-17-2006, 16:03

Great to have you back, Glaucus! We need lower house generals!

As DDW says, Mount Suribachi has adopted Pansa after x-dANGEr decided to quit. He's currently jointly reigning with DDW so it might be best to leave that arrangement undisturbed.

I'm inclined to give you Quintus Libo. If you want someone younger, we have Manius Coruncanius but he faces 4 boring years as a student. You can read about them both in the last two First Consul reports.

There are other possibilities, involving re-assigning avatars etc, but Libo seems an decent choice.

Braden

08-17-2006, 16:03

Oh, welcome back indeed. You joined us at a time when one major adventure may be about to start.

Dang! How I wish I was ready to join the lower house now…..the prospect of leading or being part of an expedition of the magnitude of taking and holding Byzantion just makes my palms grow sweaty with desire….

Good luck to who ever takes that on.

BTW – I have given up with my 6200 graphic card. It will be removed at the weekend and return as “Faulty” if I get a chance.

GeneralHankerchief

08-17-2006, 16:25

Wait a minute, isn't Saturnius available again? He's a good age, IIRC.

Welcome back, btw. ~:wave:

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 16:35

Yes, Cornelius Saturnius is free as well. Perhaps the best choice, but then again, Libo is good looking.

econ21

08-17-2006, 16:42

Yes, Cornelius Saturnius is available - I had promised him to Braden, although tech problems seemed to have just stalled his transition to the Lower House. Saturnius is much of a muchness with Libo IMO - both 30ish with good traits. I guess Glaucus can take him unless Braden strongly objects.

TinCow

08-17-2006, 16:49

Currently available avatars:

Quintus Libo (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1149417&postcount=10)
Manius Coruncanius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1158924&postcount=18)
Cornelius Saturninus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1205874&postcount=28)

I also noted while checking the current state of influence that Craterus' avatar, the assassin Placus Laelius, died sometime and no one noticed.

For this election:

Members of the Senate, 258 Autumn
3^Activity|Seniority|Player|House|Avatar|d.o.b.|Influence|Notes
7^9|1|econ21 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=5907)|Lower|Numerius Aureolus|279|9|
7^9|2| TinCow (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=6193)|Lower|Augustus Verginius|312|10|Senate Librarian
7^9|3|Tiberius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=15888)|Upper|Decius Laevinus|287|4|
7^9|4|Mount Suribachi (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=4682)|Lower|Publius Pansa|301|10|
7^5|5|Dutch_guy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10000)|Upper|Flavius Pacuvius|294|3|
7^6|6|shifty157 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10344)|Lower|Publius Laevinius|311|3|Retired
7^9|7|FLYdude (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=3203)| Lower|Tiberius Coruncanius|309|10|
7^3|8|YAKOBU (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=6712)|Upper|Valerius Paullus|305|3|
7^7|9|Swordsmaster (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=5716)|Upper|Gaius Rutilus|298|5|
7^4|10|Glaucus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16190)|Lower|||0|Absent for 2 months
7^9|11|DDW (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16745)|Lower|Lucius Amelius|308|10|Senate Fixer
7^0|12|Marcus Camillus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=15064)|Upper|Luca Mamilus|297|4|
7^9|13|GeneralHankerchief (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16104)|Lower|Marcellus Aemilius|279|0|
7^8|14|Braden (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=11909)|Upper|Decius Curtius|303|4s|Spy
7^9|15|Ignoramus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10336)|Upper|Secundus Salvidienus|292|3|
7^7|16|Tricky_Lady (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=6199)|Upper|Titus Vatinus|298|1|Controlled by Marcella
7^0|17|Zomby_Woof (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=14514)|Upper|||0|
7^1|18|Destroyer of Hope (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=13974)|Upper|Manius Aemilius|290|3|Retired
7^5|19|Shadeswolf (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=5988)|Upper|Quintus Naevius|279|1|
7^3|20|Craterus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=11493)|Upper||||
7^0|21|Mediobogdum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=14912)|Upper|||0|
7^2|22|Wishazu (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=5838)|Upper|Oppius Vintruvius|306|2|Diplomat
7^0|23|Zalmoxis (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10267)|Upper|||0|
7^4|24|x-DANGEr (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=14914)|Upper|||0|Retired
7^3|25|Silver Rusher (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=7214)|Upper|Gnaeus Hordeonius|286|3|
7^0|26|Hannibal99 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16412)|Upper|||0|
7^1|27|Wonderland (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10456)|Lower|Galerius Vatinius|276|1|
7^1|28|Lucjan (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=17016)|Lower|Servius Aemilius|276|0|
7^1|29|Ice (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=12348)|Upper|||0|
7^0|30|Csar (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=12337)|Upper|||0||
7^0|31|Eclectic (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=9790)|Upper|||0||

econ21

08-17-2006, 17:11

Thanks, TinCow, that saves me a job. :bow:

Glaucus gets first pick on the avatars as he is in the Lower House.

Then Braden if he wants to switch to a general.

Finally, any Upper House members - here it's hard picking one; maybe Craterus unless anyone else is very active between now and Sunday.

GeneralHankerchief

08-17-2006, 20:12

Craterus has left the Org and I do not think he will continue to be active in the PBM.

Edit: Just so you know it's not just stupid me, here's proof (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67576). He'll be missed.

Glaucus

08-17-2006, 20:36

Quintus Libo sounds wonderful, a fine guy, and near the front-line to boot. Thanks for your help, and I'll see you on the senate floor.

Lucjan

08-17-2006, 20:54

And provided the gods will it, standing on the senate floor, rather than rolling around in the constant inter-senatorial struggles with the rest of us. :laugh4:

StoneCold

08-17-2006, 21:09

Btw, how do anyone take part in the senate discussion without a character? Assign them with agent avatar? I am also interested in being an upper house member, so an agent would be fine for me.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 21:37

Well, there's always stark crazy Manius Aemilius :laugh4:
Check out Manius Coruncanius, he's still available.

TinCow

08-17-2006, 22:02

You don't have to have an in-game avatar to post or vote. If one is not available for you, you can just post as an anonymous Senator. Like DDW said though, Manius Coruncanius is a good choice for an upper house avatar.

StoneCold

08-17-2006, 22:10

Manius Aemilius, I am not mad enough to RP him. :P
Manius Coruncanius, I don't want to deprive someone of an active general.

I think I will just post as an anonymous Senator for now. Thanks

econ21

08-17-2006, 22:13

Welcome, Stonecold - do you want me to add you to the list of Upper House Senators? You don't need an avatar to post as an anonymous Senator.

DDW agreed to the idea of creating a "super-diplomat", who would gather together the good ancillaries and only be sparingly to avoid picking up bad vices. He might be attractive for an Upper House Senator, as hopefully he would have high influence. If you want, Stonecold, I could reserve him for you?

I am not quite ready to allocate Manius Coruncanius yet. There several new-ish Upper House Senators without avatars, but it is not clear who if any will contribute actively in the Senate. Nonetheless, I'll give out all the avatars by Sunday.

StoneCold

08-17-2006, 22:44

Yes, can you add me to the Upper House then?

Thanks

econ21

08-17-2006, 22:58

OK, you're the 32 entry in the table of players in the FAQ! (Unfortunately, not all 32 are active but we often get around half of them voting.)

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 23:03

About that super-diplomat, while I'm perfectly willing to create him, it's a pretty pointless exercise. His proposals will stand a 99 % chance of refusal anyway and his skill will drop with each refusal. So why bother ?

StoneCold, We have lots and lots of spies who make good avatars. I can post one if you like. I don't recommend the assassins, they tend to have a short life span :laugh4:

StoneCold

08-17-2006, 23:10

Assign me a spy then, I know about the short life span of the assassins. :D

About the diplomats, I usually train them by just giving the other side small amount of cash. They will always accept, so you could probably train them up to 3 influence that way, but I played only the vanilla version without patch a long time ago, things might have change since then and the mods.

econ21

08-17-2006, 23:24

About that super-diplomat, while I'm perfectly willing to create him, it's a pretty pointless exercise. His proposals will stand a 99 % chance of refusal anyway and his skill will drop with each refusal. So why bother ?

My idea was only to use him on proposals that stand a 99% chance of success! Trade maps, whatever. Then one day, when we really need it, we might have an influence 10 diplomat to use. For the 99% refusal prospects, just send Sextus Antio or someone.

I do the same thing with assassins - reserve them for safe kills and then one day, TinCow might wipe out a faction with them! :2thumbsup:

StoneCold

08-17-2006, 23:26

How safe is safe? I once had a 87% success rate kill kill my assassin. Just unlucky I guess. Also you don't build up skill much once they are in the 90% success rate jobs if my experience counts for anything that is.

Death the destroyer of worlds

08-17-2006, 23:38

Our best god-like assassin died on an easy 95 % chance of succes mission. Some nations have even refused trade several times (Ptolemaic empire) and maps lots of times (most Eastern nations). Most nations don't trade maps after we've traded once. I think it's best not to send him on any mission ever, except perhaps to hand out trifles to the natives, and just let him collect ancilliaries (not sure what the max is for a diplomat - 3 ?). Then only use him when we need him (and most likely, fail anyway - just arguing, just arguing...).

These are the spies who are below 30 :
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6315/spy1zw4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4461/spy2ty2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)