View Full Version : WotS The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III
This thread is devoted to in-character communications about the Rome Total Realism Platinum PBM explained here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65972
For all out of character business - including volunteering to join the campaign - please post in the out of character thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67616
This thread should be for Senate business only.
On a personal note, I will post in two strictly separate capacities: as Senate Speaker (which I will preface by SENATE SPEAKER and write in normal type) and as an ordinary participant (which I will preface by the name of my avatar, currently Quintus, and write in italics).
During formal sessions of the Senate (every 10 turns of the game), motions can be proposed. Each motion requires TWO seconders before it can be voted on.
Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.
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MOTIONS PROPOSED THIS SESSION OF SENATE
Motion 12.01: This senate authorises the solidification of a permanent boundary in Asia Minor that is, by no means whatsoever, to extend any further north or east beyond the territorial integrity of lands held under the influence of the cities of Heracleia, Ancyra, Adana, and Side.
Proposed: Marcellus Aemilius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo, Manius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius
Motion 12.02: If the revised Motion 12.01 is broken by the consul's actions, the consul hereby agrees to immediately step down from his position and relinquish the consulship to a new, elected consul.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius
Seconded: Marcellus Aemilius, Quintus Libo, Manius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius
Motion 12.03: When the current temple construction finishes in Rome next season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on a Hippodrome. When the Hippodrome is completed after five season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on an Amphitheatre.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius
Motion 12.04: This house instructs the Consul to re-occupy Viberi with no delay, and to never again abandon it.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius
Motion 12.05: This house instructs the Consul to prevent the incursion of any Iberian army into Roman territory by any means at his disposal.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius
Motion 12.06: The next time there is an Iberian incursion into Roman territory lasting more than one season, the Consul is instructed to send Augustus Verginius into Iberian territory for a counter-incursion. However, no military action is to be initiated by Romans unless the Iberians attack. Senator Verginius' force is to be recalled immediately after the Iberians return to their territory. This motion is rendered null if Senator Verginius dies.
Proposed: Marcellus Aemilius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Lucius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius
Motion 12.07 The Senate instructs the Consul to ensure that three Legions full are stationed along the Republic/Iberian borders.
Proposed: Manius Coruncanius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius
Motion 12.08 Upon approval and completion of Motion 12.07; the Senate instructs the Consul to not permit any more Iberian incursions into Republican territory to go unchallenged. So, any more incursions are to be met with Force and expelled by any means nessasary.
Proposed: Manius Coruncanius
Seconded: Tiberius Coruncanius
Motion 12.09:Before any hostile action be taken against Iberia by ourselves, our situation in the East must be stable, in that there will be no more expansion and there will be at least two legions (three if possible) stationed there for purely defensive purposes.
Proposed: Cornelius Saturnius
Motion 12.10.: We recruit an additional two praetorian sized legions which will be stationed at the coastal cities of Massilia and Palma.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius
Seconded: Manius Coruncanius
Constitutional Ammendment 12.A: At every midterm session of this house, we Senators will elect a Tribune of the Plebs who will have the power to veto 1 (one) motion per session. He will hold office for the session he is elected during and also the following Consular election. He may not veto Ammendments. Note: this ammendment requires 2/3 majority to pass.
Proposed: Quintus Libo
Seconded: Appius Barbatus
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-21-2006, 00:17
This continues the matter of the attack on the Greek Cities (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1221336&postcount=671)
Lucius Aemilius and Augustus Verginius, you didn't raise any issue with the first motion takes precedence convention when it was originally concieved, why are you raising an issue now when it would invalidate the motion you support? Surely you're not wishing to change the rules each time so that your pet motion passes?
The conflicting motions at that time either worked out to my satisfaction or did not concern me. I agree with you and the senate speaker, that I should have seen this legislative problem looming in the future and taken steps to avoid it in advance. Nevertheless, I am arguing the case now. The conquest of Byzantium is such a strategic mistake that I can not sit by idly. I would be remiss in my duties as co-sconsul if I did. If we were discussing a trivial matter I would wait untill the next session before proposing a constitutional amendment, but as the matter is so grave, I feel we must resolve it immediately.
Are you afraid of the senate, that you dare not allow an emergency vote ?
[SENATE SPEAKER]: First Consul, please, allow me to open the proceedings! Your enthusiasm does you credit, but some decorum please.
As I was about to say at the outset, welcome, Senators, to another chapter in the deliberations of this august house. I know that some important procedural issues were discussed quite recently and understand that Senators may wish, contrary to my personal preference, to keep debating them. In this regard, I would only observe the last line in the notice posted above:
Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.
Note that this was simply copied from the start of the previous chapter of our deliberations. In accordance with this convention, I hereby strike down motions 10.6 and 10.8 as being invalid in so far as they contradict motion 10.2
We witness here the birth of tyranny. Those men who have the most to gain from this action also, it seems, have the power to enforce their will against the Republic. They do so through acts of dubious validity backed by an authority that cannot be reprimanded by this body. Worst of all, they refuse to consult with the citizens of Rome. This would be bad enough if it were just some normal legislation, but alas it is worse than that.
These acts which are being pushed through threaten to throw the Republic into war with the two greatest empires in the world. Countless citizens will lose their lives in these struggles. Unimaginable amounts of money will be diverted from projects to better the lives of Romans to these wars. No one will benefit from this, save those generals who command the armies which are given looting rights in the devestated regions. The same men who now push through this abomination to the ideals of the Republic.
Do not fool yourselves, Senators, we witness here today the corruption of justice and the beginning of a long descent into an 'Imperial' Rome.
That's a rather lovely oration, Verginius. It would be even nicer if it was graced by the presence of any facts.
The fact is that we have a convention to deal with contradictory motions. This convention has been in place for over 10 years. It has been used more than once to deconflict contradictory motions. It was clearly stated as a convention that will be used. You did not complain at all.
But now, that your motion is the one to be invalidated by that convention (something you could have easily prevented), all of a sudden, it's tyranny!
Maybe it is, but it is you who we should keep an eye on. The Speaker has applied the same standard to these motions as in the past. But no, this is Augustus Verginius' motion! No, no, rules that apply just fine for other motions do not apply to it! We must revote on it until it passes!
In short, I would be much more willing to consider your complaints about the Senate conventions if those were based on a true concern about how the Senate operates. It is, however, quite clear that these complaints come from the fact that your motion was defeated. You haven't even suggested a better way to deconflict contradictory motions! All you have done is complained about which motion is to be followed. It is obvious that your motives are to push your agenda, rather than to reexamine the workings of the Senate, and I don't much care for it.
How can I possibly benefit from from the legislation I proposed? What is in it that will have even the remotest effect on my person? I have publicly stated that I will not ever leave the Gallic front and I mean that. I will neither gain nor lose regardless of any action that is taken on this matter. No, I do not speak out for myself, I speak out for the Republic.
You say I only speak up now because it is my legislation that has been voted down? Clearly you do not remember that the second of the two previous issues was just that; the approval of others' legislation over my own. I did not speak up then because they were trivial issues in the grand scope of affairs. If I was truly so interested in my own legislation, as you suggestion, I would have demanded another vote then, as now; but I did not because it is not self-interest that drives me. I speak for the citizens of Rome, Senator Coruncanius, whom do you speak for?
The previous matters which you cite as proof of my complacency were minor issues of little significant to the future of Rome. There are entire orders of magnitude between those incidents and this one. This is a very serious matter that may plunge us into the most devestating wars the world has ever seen. I would be as guilty of criminal neglicence as Publius Laevinus if I held my tongue under such circumstances. If the Republic is to risk war with the most powerful empires in the world, it must do so with the clear consent of the Senate! It makes me sick to think that such a monumentous decision can be made on the basis of a procedural policy that was never voted upon by anyone. I am not afraid of my legislation being defeated. There can be no defeat if the Republic as a whole desires this course of action. I will fully submit and say not a single word more on this, regardless of the outcome, if it is put to a vote.
What reason do you have for denying a vote? Why do you wish to prevent the citizens from making their voices heard? Do you consider war with Selucia and Ptolemy such a minor matter that a single day's delay in its commencement would annoy you?
Let us look at what the Senate voted for, shall we? The text of Motion 10.2 reads:
This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.
This motion passed with a wide margin. This motion is perfectly clear, and there is no way you can deny that the Senate wishes anything other than the conquer Byzantium, based on how they voted on that motion. Motion 10.6 reads:
No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.
For the most part, Senators who voted for this motion did not vote for the other one, and vice versa. Some Senators voted for both, however. Why do you suppose that is? This motion isn't as clear. Senators may not have been aware of the exact geographical situation. With the extreme clarity of Motion 10.2, how can we come to any conclusion other than that certain Senators thought Byzantium was exempt, for whatever reason, from the provisions of this motion. Titus Vatinius was one of the Senators who voted for both motions, and I quote her.. err, him:
[TITUS VATINIUS]
Errr... Perhaps I didn't study Lucius Aemilius' engravings well enough as I have voted for both motions 10.2 and 10.6 while it was my intention to only approve motion 10.2. My apologies, it is clear that it was not a good moment for me to judge on senate motions after a long night party... emmm... discussing with my priest of Mars.
I shall make sure to be more careful during the next voting rounds.
(On the other hand my vote doesn't seem to make the difference)
You also mentioned Motion 10.8, but I disagree with your reasoning. Motion 9.18 states how wars with Thrace, Illyria, and Macedon should be fought (i.e. with an objective of reaching the Danube). The non-mention of the Greeks by this motion simply means that motion does not at all address the war with the Greeks, not that it prohibits it.
In any case, Motions 10.6 and 10.8 are much less clear in their intent than Motion 10.2. While there is room for variable interpretations of those two motions, there is only one way to interpret Motion 10.2, and this motion has been approved by the Senate. I do not see how it is in any way conceivable that the will of the Senate is anything other than to capture Byzantium.
It is exactly for this reason that I oppose another vote on the issue. Even disregarding all precedent concerning contradictory motions, it is clear that the Senate wants Byzantium. I can only imagine that you would introduce even more complicated and unclear motions at the proposed emergency session. Yet, if we again had the motion with the text:
This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.
Is there really any doubt about how the Senate would vote? I don't see any better way to have the Senate decide on the issue of Byzantium. I fear your intent may be to obfuscate the issue, which is why I am against a vote on the exact thing we already voted on.
We could have a vote on precedence rules, but I would be weary of applying them retroactively, so it is best left to the next session.
Let the senators who voted to conquer Byzantium join the men they would throw into that snake pit! Let the venom of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid adders seep into their veins as it would the honorable flesh and blood of the Roman soldiers that these senators would send to an isolated hades on Earth. You are condemning these men to certain death.
Now that I have spoken my mind as to the inept thought by those that have voted for motion 10.2, my opinion on the conflicting motions is...
In my eyes, both motions are valid, and both motions stand, however, because motion 10.2 instructs the consul to take Byzantium, but motion 10.6 states that no attacks shall be made on Greek cities that do not border Rome, and both motions were passed, then I do not feel that attacking Byzantion is a direct instruction of the senate until Byzantion borders Rome. For Byzantion to border Rome, we would have to go to war with the Ptolemies, which no motion in this session advised. So, in my mind, the consul is not required to assault Byzantion unless the Greeks expand westward in Ptolemeic land and once again border Rome, in which case we would have an open attack at Greek land leading to Byzantion.
Further more, to my confusion, two of the senators who voted for attacking Byzantion voted against the motion that advised the replenishment of the legions. How is Rome supposed to fight any battles with undermanned legions, let alone take and hold a city that it shares no border with and cannot hope to keep supplied by sea when it's surrounded by two of the world's largest nations?
Further more, there is no possible way that the wording of motion 10.6 could cause confusion leading up to the conflict between the two motions. "No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours." Or, in fools terms, as it seems things need to be placed. *Speaks in a mocking voice* "We can't attack them if we can't see their land from ours."
The only confusion here is senators' poor knowledge of Roman borders and the things that lie outside them. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some that didn't know a world existed outside Rome at all. To them, the names Carthage, Ptolemy, Seleucid...they probably sound like the names of master toga weavers! If only I were so foolish that I could spend 1,000 denarii on a toga and ignore the pain of Roman citizens, I might be like many others in this senate.
Mount Suribachi
08-21-2006, 09:12
Conscript Fathers, if I may interrupt here. When I first saw that the both of the motions in question had passed, I must confess my heart lept! Now I had a way of not attacking Byzantion, an act that you all know I have been greatly opposed to.
Unfortunately, I had forgotten the rules and the precedent regarding contradicting motions. Much as I do not like it in this case, I must bow to the voting rules of this august house. Augustus Verginius, you have spoken passionately against this result, but in the past you have spoken equally passionately about the need for order - how it is our laws and rules that separate us from the barbarians. I urge you know to remember what you have said in the past and swallow your pride. I agree with what you and my co-consul say about the madness of this proposed expidition, but that does not mean I shall not ignore the laws of this house.
So with a heavy - nay, solemn heart I accept that Byzantion must be conquered. But hear this Conscript Fathers, hear this! My consulship has 10 more seasons to run, do not expect this great walled city to be taken afore the year is out! As I have told you my astrologers and augers have predicted war with Ptolomy shortly. Numerius Aureolus has dreamed of an equally dire future. I predict this debate shall all be academic soon anyway.
And if it is not, Servius Aemilius speaks words of wisdom. Let those who would seek to enact such foolish actions risk their lives to do it.
Senators,
I must apologise for being absent from the last Senate Vote, this was due to my studies who have reached their final stages before I can leave my education and join the Republic in service.
I fear the same issue will occur (OOC: Depending on how fast the game is played) for the next voting session but I hope it will not.
I apologise mainly because my vote could have stopped this internal feud and the bickering about procedure.
However, I will publicly announce now, that I would have supported motion 10.2, perhaps we will have had the same heated debate even if motion 10.6 was clearly not voted through? The reasons for support in both is understandable.
Senator Publius Pansa speaks the truth and I will not turn to the plebs for action or any other such illegal act, even if it would aid the Republic. Yet, I would like to take a moment to clarify to all exactly what madness has been enacted here.
First, Debeltos is to be taken and then immediately gifted to Ptolemy. Second, Byzantion is to be taken and held and neither Nicomedia nor any other Greek city is to be attacked. While all of Greece's current attention is diverted to the east in their war with Seleucia, it will surely turn back against us as soon as we take Byzantium. While they certainly cannot threaten us, this removes a limiting force on one of the two great eastern empires. In Macedonia, we shall remove the only enemy of Ptolemy in Europe, leaving his armies in the area idle. We shall then surround ourselves with warring empires and block the most significant access point by which they can fight. One, most likely both, will attack us and we will be forced to hold the city while in some 'desperate' and dramatic fashion while relief armies move east to relieve it. Perhaps the relief will arrive just in time, to find Numerius Aureolus alone in the city claiming that the rest of the legion fought to its death and that it was only the prompt arrival of allies that scared the enemy away!
Regardless, this will mean war with either or both of the eastern empires, one which will surely not cease in any of our lifetimes. We will permanently lose trade access to all eastern ports, revenue will drop, and thousands of citizens will be killed in battles. For what, I ask you? For the vanity of a few men who will profit at the expense of the Republic.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, with all respect, I fear you misunderstand the situation. If Egypt does turn hostile (as I expect), they will indeed surround Debeltos. But they will not attack the city of Debeltos. Rather, we will march from Debeltos to attack them. In one season, Legio V could take Tylis and the pro-Consul's army could take Maronia. This would expell the Egyptians from Europe.
Such a swift response to Egyptian aggression would also lead to our territory becoming adjacent to Byzantion. Hence Motion 10.6 would not apply. Neutral Egypt going to war with us would also negate Motion 10.8. So let us not argue over hypothetical contradictions. The pro-Consul has indicated he will not act precipitously in the matter of Byzantion. Let us take one step at a time and respond to events on the ground.
Mention of the Co-Consul leads me to respond his accusation in his First Consul's Report that I was insurbordinate for refusing to exterminate Debeltos. Co-Consul, I sincerely apologise for any slight given, it was not intended. But the stipulation that no city (except Carthage) may be exterminated is the second rule in our constitution. It can only be over-riden by a Senate motion. Co-Consul, for the good of the Republic, the two of us must co-operate closely on the field of battle in the coming seasons. Let us not fall out over simple adherence to the rules.
I would also like to humbly remind the Consuls that our ships can only practically carry one unit of soldiers each. The trip to Debeltos was so over-crowded, I swear, the Bastarnae and Samartians had to swim alongside us through the Bosphorus. I would also remind them that it is possible to retrain ship crews to bring them back up to strength. The last ship in the fleet had only a captain as its crew. Although he was rather a dour fellow, I feel he could use some company - especially in the event of a sea battle.
Make whatever excuses and legal justification you wish Aureolus. You and your backers are drawing us into a war that will exact a heavy toll on the Republic, both physically and financially. There is more to life than conquest, Aureolus, and there is more to being a Roman than finding victory in battle. The Gauls were driven to Rome out of greed and it is greed that propels us to Byzantium. In the end, our victories over the Gauls will be hollow if we become barbarians ourselves.
First of all noble Senators, I announce my marriage to the most beautiful Urgunalla. It is a fine match that has been made for me and I will do my damnest to ensure the creation of more noble citizens and future Legates of the Republic!........*he, he*
Now, to more serious matters. I have to say that although I support the taking of Byzantion I have to remind the Co-Consuls that whilst it is a matter the Senate has instructed them to perform, there is no timescale upon this apart from the ending of the Co-Consulship.
I refer to that which has been stated by my good friend Numerius Aureolus in this matter in that both motions 10.2 and 10.6 can be upheld and I say that we do not march to war, nay, we are forced into it by the continued rejection of every diplomatic mission we send.
How can anyone stand here and say WE are forcing war when it is our neighbours, who constantly reject us….even an offer of a profitable city and province is not enough to grant friendship with them it seems.
If they are to act thus, then let it be so, and war is the result Senators. It is our neighbours who force us to secure our borders thus…..no dreams of conquest fill my mind, just the hope that IF…..IF, we can expel those factions around us who continue to refuse to even parlay with us, then and only then can we have an assured peace Senators.
I had hoped that if we manage to maintain waterbound borders we could have peace but it seems that Carthage did not subscribe to that ideal….so…..
Now, I draw the Senators notice to Melite and the Carthaginian aggression! I am gladdened by the Co-Consuls swift response in this matter but we must not believe the issue is dealt with until the Carthanagianis have been expelled…..or indeed until their capital burns!
I do not have long until my studies have ended, then I will be at the disposal of the Co-Consuls; but I ask that perhaps I am granted leave until I have succeeded in my personal quest with my new wife?
(OOC: See the OOC thread for my timescale for joining the lower house)
Mount Suribachi
08-22-2006, 11:30
Young Coruncanius, I believe, though the Senate Speaker may correct me, that unless stated otherwise, motions are only applicable to the current consulship.
Now, go and enjoy your honeymoon. There will be plenty of battles for all of us when you return. *mutters under breath* except for Alexander Aureolus no doubt....
You are correct Co-Consul, however, that's what I stated.
With only two, is it?, regions between ourselves and Byzantion....regions that will perhaps become hostile very soon....do you not see it very possible that we will border Byzantion before your Consulship ends, and therefore, be able to uphold Motion 10.2 without violating 10.6?
10 seasons is a very long time. We have seen Dynasties be destroyed in less time.
Avicenna
08-22-2006, 14:42
Dynasties, master Coruncanius? Is this a hint that the Coruncanii have royal ambitions and wish to rule Rome as the new generation of tyrants?
I was, blatantly, referring to those “Dynasties” that we have seen demise – many by our hand. Macedonia for example.
My family IS a Dynasty…..this means we have a long history. Thus I use the word in the Family sense not the Emperic sense.
Be careful about trying to put words into my mouth Senator, I am staunchly a Republican, first and foremost, a member of my family secondly to that great responsibility. Others have recently put family before the Republic and with very grave consequence.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-22-2006, 19:43
Tribune Numerius Aureolus,
You walk a tight rope between respect and insubordination. Remember, you have not yet earned the respect of high office, and a fall now might yet be quite deep. Nevertheless, your arguments are persuasive and I will let your disobidiance in this matter slide considering your accomplishements on this mission.
I apologize if I have miscalculated the number of ships required to transport your legion (I count avatars for free, by the way). Those fleet engagements did us more harm than I realised. I can imagine how uncomfortable you must have been on the long and dangerous voyage and I applaud your men for fighting such a valiant action at the end of it (ships, like troops, may be retrained in an emergency. What specifies an emergency is something the consuls must decide for themselves, but I advise reluctance on their part). Your strategy was sound, but your tactics still have some of the recklesness of youth in them.
The death of the last general responsible for the death of an Roman consul, my friend an co-consul Amulius Coruncanius, pleases me greatly and spreads fear amongst our enemies at a critical moment in the continuing story of our Republic, the resurgence of the Republic of Carthage. I will make the appropriate offerings tonight to bring his spirit to rest and I hope it slightly eases the grief of my friend, the general Tiberius and his family. The destruction of the kingdom of Macedonia might have appeared like a reckless exercise by some in this house, but it has shown our enemies that Rome will not give up the pursuit of them no matter how far they flee, nor will we stop the pursuit untill they surrender or perish.
I will speak out on the strategy the consuls will follow and the renewed Carthagian threat when I resume command of our armed forces.
Aureolus did nothing wrong. It is clearly against the constitution to exterminate a city without the approval of the Senate. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Hopefully the Senate will let the issuing of this illegal order slide, seeing how the order was not executed.
Also, Lucius Aemilius, I most eagerly await to hear your strategy on dealing with the Carthaginians, seeing how it was you who withdrew our troops from Sicily. I am also wondering why I spent most of my Consulship improving the fleet if the Carthaginians will be allowed to drive their boats wherever they want, including near our islands.
Mount Suribachi
08-22-2006, 22:08
The fleet cannot be everywhere at once and has been heavily tasked in the wars with Macedon & Greece. Most of the western fleet was in harbour for repair & reinforcement, or on their way to such.
Furthermore Melite is but a stones throw from Africa - the Carthaginians could probably swim there with little difficulty.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The Carthaginians seem to be landing in force. It would be wise not to under-estimate them. The Praetorian army already en route to Sicily may not be enough now that we know the threat of landings is real and not merely hypothetical. I wonder, what are the Consuls thoughts on our appropriate response?
And specifically, which Lower House generals are the Co-Consul intending to task with fighting the Carthaginians? I hastened to add, I ask only out of curiosity, I have no particular personal stake in this question - I suspect I am currently the furthest general from Melite in the whole Republic.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-22-2006, 23:03
Senator Tiberius Coruncanius,
Aureolus did nothing wrong. It is clearly against the constitution to exterminate a city without the approval of the Senate. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Hopefully the Senate will let the issuing of this illegal order slide, seeing how the order was not executed.
I had made it clear on several occasions in my speeches in the senate that if we took Debeltos, it would be razed to the ground and abandoned one way or the other. The senate was well aware of the consuls' views and not one voice was ever raised in protest. As the senate then voted for motion 10.1 almost unanomously this is clearly not to be considered an order we gave, but an order which was given by the senate.
Instead, tribune Numerius Aureolus has taken it upon himself to dictate state policy. As it was indeed against our constitution I was willing to let it slide this time, but the fact remains that he violated a direct order from the highest raking body in this state. A tall order for such a young man, which the senate might take exception to. Lastly, but most importantly, the rule was clearly instigated to prevent army commanders from senslessy exterminating towns, but didn't we just exterminate Gergovia, again, on direct orders of the senate ?
I was trying to spare this young man an impeachment, but now I feel compelled to ask if any senator wishes to accuse him of treason ?
Technically, that senator would be right to do so. I ask the senate's forbearance in this matter, as the young man was clearly carried away by compassion, and as his mission was a success otherwise, clearly the Gods were not offended.
Also, Lucius Aemilius, I most eagerly await to hear your strategy on dealing with the Carthaginians, seeing how it was you who withdrew our troops from Sicily. I am also wondering why I spent most of my Consulship improving the fleet if the Carthaginians will be allowed to drive their boats wherever they want, including near our islands.
I cannot make it rain legions and warships out of the blue sky, senator. The grieveous losses in my first term did not help either. I shall neglect to go into the sorry state of our armies when I took over as consul, or that the entire fleet was hundreds of miles away from Carthage of the coast of Greece, instead of divided in three parts as it is now.
Instead, I point you to my forsight of immediately sending a new legion to Sicily the moment Numidia was destroyed, even if it has now costs us Acquileia, we at least have a legion and a fleet on the scene in Sicily.
p.s. Senate Librarian, kindly add the carried interim motions to the library if you will.
[Senate Librarian] Er, yes... I was just getting around to that. I was busy copying the appropriate scrolls just at the moment that your messenger found me.
*looks down at the wine stains on his toga*
Er... well... I... I'll see to it immediately!
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:The First Consul's forebearance is gratefully acknowledged and I do not wish to test it further. I would merely ask any Senator who believes the order to exterminate Debeltos was constitutional to compare motions 10.1 and 9.1. Motion 10.1 made no mention of extermination. The situation with Gergovia was quite different, as extermination was explicitly called for in motion 9.1.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: On the matter of the constitution and exterminations, in order to avoid future disputes, I would like to make the following advance ruling:
Motions which authorise exterminations must be labelled as constitutional ammendments and will require a two-thirds majority to be passed. Even if the exterminations are one-off events, they are over-riding the constitution and this is something that should not be done lightly.
On an unrelated point, observant Senators may have noticed that we have adopted the unstated convention that drawn motions (equal votes for and against) are treated as failed motions. As with the ruling on exterminations, I mention this now to forestall possible future disputes.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-23-2006, 00:36
This sounds like a sound ruling. I would advise senate members posing extermination proposals to do this in a seperate motion. Otherwise their 'capture city X' motion might be voted down as it did get a majority, but not a 2/3 majority. I would advise the senate speaker to add these rules, and the amendments, to the senate lore, if he has not already done so.
Unforetunatly, it seems we did not move fast enough in our bid to attempt an alliance with the Carthaginians, an action which I had strongly supported. In that respect, I would be willing, as soon as the senate deems me worthy, to lead a legion against the Republic of Carthage. I had supported a friendship with them, but if friendship is not within their interests, I will repel them from Rome's shores, and take the fight back to them.
Avicenna
08-23-2006, 03:59
Bravo, Master Chief! Err, I mean, senator. However, do you intend to defeat Carthage's vast armies with a single legion? That is folly. It is not like Alexander's campaign in Asia, against armies of ragtag peasants. The Carthaginians are well trained and well equipped, and even have the mighty elephants. I urge you to rethink on this issue, Senator Aemilius.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
It saddens me that a potential alliance with Carthage has turned into an inevitably costly war. Senator Laevinus, do not worry, young Servius will not fight alone against the Carthaginians. I volunteer my services to the cause and request relocation to the Sicilian front, and on to Africa if necessary thereafter.
I would also like to add that I appluad Tribune Aureolus' actions at Debeltos, and his integrity in the aftermath.
Mount Suribachi
08-23-2006, 10:07
Regarding the disobedience of Numerius Auerolus at Debeltos, I will not pursue the matter further as he has a legal technicality to protect him from not performing what was clearly the will of this house, as discussed in the last interim session. Both myself and my co-consul made it quite clear that we intended to raze Debeltos to the ground should the motion to take it pass. My mistake was that I was so focussed on defeating that motion, I did not think to insert a clause specifically calling for the cities destruction should I be forced to take it.
As for the Carthaginian war - I do not have access to my scrolls at this moment, but I believe our only lower house Senators within reach of Sicily and Melite are those youngsters studying in Rome, most of whom are still one or two years away from completing their studies. Of the senior lower house Senators I believe the nearest 2 are Augustus Verginius in Gaul and Lucius Aemilius west of Auqilia.
At least Numerius Aureolus has now removed himself from wishing to join the Carthaginian campaign. A pleasant change from his constant demands to be sent wherever the action is. Send me to Thrace! Send me to Macedon! Send me to Debeltos! Send me to Byzantion! Send me to Melite! At last our young Alexander realises that even he cannot fight battles in Greece and Melite at the same time.
I do not wish to sound as impertinent as Numerius Aureolus, but I also do not wish to leave the Gallic front until I recieve word that they have been completely destroyed. In my opinion, a senior Senator is not needed for this mission anyway. Motion 10.8 forbids the Consuls from taking any land from Carthage during the remainder of their term. This certainly does not apply to defending or re-taking Melite as the case may be, but that is an assignment that truly can be done by a single Legion if it is competently led.
Task one of the younger Senators with the rescue of the tiny island and be done with it. We will surely debate the value of a full African campaign at the next election.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I seem to have offended the Co-Consul, but at the risk of further offence, I should state emphatically that I do not rule myself out from personal involvement in action against Carthage. If we do mount a full African campaign at some stage, as Senator Verginius suggests, it would be the most glorious military endeavour the Republic has yet engaged upon. No young tribune would rule themselves out from such. I merely state that, being in far-off Debeltos and surrounded by Egyptians, I recognise that I may not be the Consuls first choice to defend Melite. If I am, I would go there with a happy heart.
On the issue of senior Lower House generals, we do not need reminding that in war, it is the convention that the Consul lead our armies into the heaviest fighting. Currently, we have two active theatres of war - a large, open Thracian front and a currently narrow southern one, at the moment focussed on Melite but possibly extending to the other islands, including Sicily. Fortunately, we have two Consuls. The First Consul is already battling the Thracians. That leaves the Co-Consul in what is now a quiet eastern border with Egypt. I suggest that the Co-Consul move to take overall charge of the southern front.
Thank you senator Saturninus for your support. Perhaps, when the senate deems us worthy of leadership, we shall lead the defense against the Carthaginians together.
GeneralHankerchief
08-24-2006, 03:41
Senators, is it necessary that we have two full legions defending Gaul now?
One of them (preferable Legio III) should be activated to subdue the Carthaginian threat. This is the theatre that can be spared a legion, as well as the one that gets the soldiers to the action quickest. Send Legio III to fight Carthage!
{Cornelius Saturninus}
That would be a foolhardy move senator Aemilius, seeing as how Iberia is a major threat to us in the west. If anything, we will probably need more legions in the area shortly. My hopes lie in the possibility of a short conflict with Carthage, throwing them back into the sea from which they came and ending it there. Our priorities lie with Iberia. I fear we've allowed them to become much too powerful and a major threat to our overall stability. They are just too much of a wildcard. If preemptive action is not taken very soon senators, prepare for the worst. We mustn't be caught with our togas around our ankles, busying ourselves in Africa, I've come to see this now. I believe we must strike, and strike fast, push the stinking Iberians back into the peninsula and secure the mountain border above, effectively splitting their kingdom. From there, I would like to take the entire peninsula as it would be more easily defensible against Iberian retaliation from the North, and would give us a strategic foothold for a future African invasion. As you can imagine, this will be an enormous effort, requiring the full industrial and administrational capabilities of the Republic.
I would push for immediate action, but I believe a more measured approach will be more to our benefit. Refitting our legions and troops quickly before making any military advances should be attempted, a great logistical effort. At least three legions must be committed to the campaign, maybe more. However, we may not have the luxury of time for such indulgences. The Iberians are a fierce, aggressive peoples, you've seen how they've expanded their lands and military might in these past few decades. I've been researching much about them in the Greek libraries where I've been these few years and learning terrible things, and I believe I might be a good asset for the Republic. I request permission from this Senate to travel to Italy and raise troops myself to prepare for any upcoming incidents.
I believe that within the current Consul's term, or at least the next, Rome will see a war the likes of which we've never seen nor would ever wish for. However, it will be a necessary war lest we wish our children to be the slaves of savage, barbarious mosters. Senators, if you thought the Gauls were something, you have yet to see anything.
Mount Suribachi
08-24-2006, 12:21
Cornelius Saturninus speaks the truth when he says we need to maintain a strong presence in Gaul. Any reduction in our troops numbers there will be seen as weakness by the Iberians and war will ensue. For many years now, maintaining peace with Iberia has been a priority for our Republic. I am sure war with them will come - but I would would rather it be later than sooner.
GeneralHankerchief
08-24-2006, 14:58
The conflict is already with Carthage. Are we to just throw them back to Afrika every time they get the gall to invade Melite or another of our islands? No, Carthage must be reminded of our superiority. Praetor Coruncanius showed wisdom when proposing a raid, and I now realize I was wrong to disagree with him. Carthage must pay for its insolence.
(OOC: You guys are right, but at least take me out of Comata! I want my military service counter to keep ticking!)
Dutch_guy
08-24-2006, 19:03
Conscript fathers,
I find myself to be siding with Cornelius Saturninus on the matter of troop deployment, I don't deem Carthage our biggest rival at the moment. Not while we have the expansion driven Iberians to our West, and the Great Nation of Egypt to our east. War with both is inevitable it seems, they are simply to powerful to ignore. And I know they think the exact same way.
Carthage can be ignored for now. It is to our east and west we must look first. To our east the Iberians expand destroying everyone in their path, and soon their path Will cross that of our own.Their military might must not be underestimated!. I'd even say they have more troops in the area than we do...
On the other side of the world we must contend with the Egyptians, who, if they 'd dare, could push as far as Athens before we could strike them with a sufficient amount of force to break them. Only one legion stands between Byzantium and Thessalonica, if that doesn't prove to be enough then the closest army in the neighborhood would Tiberius the Victor's army. Who is currently guarding against Thracian intrusion in the north. So if the treasury could handle it, we shouldf think about strengthening the garrisons in Greece and Macedonia. Or reenforce the current legion near the Egyptian border.
I myself would love to help in anyway I could and don't worry, Tiberius the Victor, my father by adoption, has trained me for 6 years. I am ready to command my own army, and I do hope you agree Conscript Fathers.
Flavius Pacuvius, legate under Tiberius the Victor.
:balloon2:
Mount Suribachi
08-24-2006, 19:58
Flavius, if the Ptolomites do attack, unless the significantly strengten their armies in Europe, their defeat would be short and swift. They only have 2 cities on our side of the Bosphorus. We have 2 legions (mine and Numerius Aureolus) adjacent to their land. The problem will be holding off their reinforcements as they attempt to cross from Asia Minor.
OOC: IIRC there is a land bridge at Byzantion, and another at the southern end of the Bosphorus
Publius Pansa, you are quite right about the defeat that Ptolemy would suffer should he attack us, but there would be no reinforcements out of Asia. Ptolemy's holdings in Asia are too far south, Ionia and such. There would be Seleucid territories betweeen us, and the Aegean sea.
I do not see why some keep insisting that Iberia is a bigger threat than Carthage. Iberians have never been hostile to us. They allowed us to almost destroy their supposed allies, the Gauls. They even gave us money when one of their armies found itself inside our expanding borders.
And what did Carthage do? They launched an invasion! At the mid term some claimed that Carthage would not be hostile to us any further, and even suggested a ceasefire. Ok, so that was completely wrong, but there was still a reasonable argument for it. But how can anyone now think that the Carthaginians are anything but completely hostile? Just what will stop them from invading further islands, other than Roman military might?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Once again, I find myself in agreement with Praetor Coruncanius. I fear that we - myself included - have concerned ourselves too much with the possibility of potential wars with our neighbours Iberia, Egypt and Seleucia. We overlooked the actual threat posed by our existing wars with Thrace - who have already seized one settlement from us - and with Carthage - who are about to seize Melite.
We have set a line of the Danube river to hold against the Thracians. I trust to the First Consul to establish this frontier and hold back the barbarians.
We had trusted to the seas to form a barrier between us and Carthage. We now see that such a belief was mistaken. The seas are not like a river - they cannot be so easily watched and there are no bridges or fords at which travellers across them can be easily stopped. We must guard our shores watchfully and begin preparations to make our own expedition across the Mediterranean.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senator Coruncanius, all that will be needed to stop any further invasions by the Carthaginians will be one, maybe two legions stationed in strategic locations where a seaborne invasion is likely. Perhaps one in Sicily, another in Central or Southern Italy. All this could have been avoided however, if the senate had realized that a ceasefire was crucial when we had the chance. That is all water under a bridge now. It is essential that this body does not make another mistake at present time. All our strength must be focused to the west. Any potential conflict with the Ptolemies will not be of major consequence to us, as already discussed. One or two legions in the east should be enough to keep our lands safe.
The Iberians will only continue to expand and bring more money and manpower under their rule... money and manpower they will use to wage a war on us. It is true, they offered us a paltry gift of around 500 denarii, but that was only to stave us off long enough for them to be fully prepared for their offensive. That was their advance scout force in our lands senators, hiding behind tribute and respect whilst the main forces assemble. I urge you senators, do not make a costly mistake now, send me and other able generals to crush the Iberians. I have gotten all I can out of these greek cities, now it is time to put my skills to use for the good of the Republic.
So, Saturnius, you say that one or two legions would be able to protect Italy's very long coastline, and 4 islands, from invasion, but somehow one or two legions are not enough to defend in Transalpine Gaul, and, as a result, we must attack the Iberians? Now I do wonder why one would make such an egregiously faulty argument? Perhaps you are ignorant? Or maybe you think the Republic is not involved in enough wars as it is? Or do you hate the Iberians? Maybe you want to lead the charge personally but are afraid of the sea? Perhaps you have spent too much time among the Greeks, and adopted their faulty strategy? Have I guessed correctly yet?
{Cornelius Saturninus}
You are nowhere near the truth senator. One or two legions to defend our coastlines are more than enough. One in Sicily can be transported to any of the nearby islands, as well as move north to Southern Italy if necessary within a season, more than enough time to halt any advance. Another legion in Central Italy can defend all of the peninsula's coastline and the islands to the west. Do you believe it necessary instead to have a legion stationed every few hundred miles along the coast, just waiting for an invasion in their immediate sector? No, I believe two legions are more than enough. These are men senator, men who can move from place to place to defend as necessary. These are the Roman legions, the most capably lead soldiers in the world. If a threat is near, they will reach it and dispose of it.
On the other hand, in the Iberian front we have many more points of attack they can choose, much like our current Thracian front. As you saw, a Thracian army sneaked through our borders and took a settlement from under our noses. Why? Because the border is wide, the lands far and expansive. Unlike our coastline, which can have only so many strategic entry points, and of which the chances of invasion are less than land encroachments.
Senator, you would do well to try and learn as much as you can yourself from the Greeks or any others. Do not snub knowledge just because it comes from a different source. If you believe my arguments are not warranted and I am just warmongering, you senator Coruncanius, may be the ignorant one. War with Iberia is coming. Whether or not we are ready for it is up to us. Balancing the power in the West is a necessary prefix to our invasion of Africa. Without it, we will be in a much worse predicament.
Mount Suribachi
08-25-2006, 09:26
Iberians have never been hostile to us.
Yet Senator. Yet.....
As for Carthage, perhaps the Senate Speaker could clarify this issue for me, but I was under the impression, based upon the motions passed in the last session, that conquest of any Carthaginian territory is not allowed. I fear that it might come down to the minutiea of the relevant motions, debated at length by those with more intrest in legal technicalities than myself.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The Consuls are responsible for interpreting legislation, but I agree with the Co-Consul - my reading of Motion 10.8 is that it does prevent us from conquering any existing Carthaginian settlements.
Of course, should any of our settlements fall to them, I do not believe 10.8 would rule out reconquering them.
Mount Suribachi
08-25-2006, 11:34
Conscript Fathers, I have not the time to write a full report, but Melite has been cleared of the Carthaginian army, and Orduba has been taken from the Thracians, thus completing our expansion to the Danube - now we need to secure the crossings on that River.
And with that, I hand over the day to day running of our Republic to First Consul Lucius Aemilius, who is advancing on Aquilia.
Why has this Senate turned into such a mass of warmongers? It saddens me to see this great Republic turned into nothing more than a band of squabbling men who want nothing more than personal glory. We are plunged from one great war into another with no end in sight at all. We are told that simply because we are in a state of war with an enemy, we must engage in all-out warfare to end it swiftly and decisively. Yet when the war is complete, we are told that another one must be immediately engaged in. Thus, we are always in the middle of some incredibly important conflict which honor demands that we win without delay.
I think several in here do not understand the meaning of the word honor. Honor involves doing what is right for the Republic even if it is not good for yourself. The Republic is suffering economically and militarily from these unending conflicts. We need an extended period of peace, even unilateral peace, to create better farming, roads and baths for our citizens and to strengthen our Legions so that all areas can be defended at the same time. To do any less is to ignore the needs of the Roman people.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-25-2006, 12:26
OOC :
Steven Colbert says it so much better than I can in The Long War (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVWnLg-JtvE) :
As long as we're at war, we're under attack,
As long as we're under attack, we're at war,
This gives us a lot of leeway...
...To fight everyone forever against everything.
:laugh4:
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-26-2006, 01:14
Letter to the senate, Autumn 257 BC
Conscript fathers,
The situation remains dire.
Tribune Gaius Rutilius is holding Melite where the Carthagians have landed another invasion force. Our fleet tried to prevent the landing, but were defeated and are now regrouping. All our warfleets are converging on Melite, while new 'light' fleets are being equipped to replace them.
I, praetor Lucius Aemilius, have recaptured Acquileia and proceeded to destroy all Thracian forces in Illyria with severe losses (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1225929&postcount=39). The Thracians have launched another offensive with a massive army, led by their faction heir. Some of our troops were destroyed while we tried to regroup to counter this new threat. I have this army cornered and will engage it when word reaches me from the east.
In the east, two Thracian armies are marching on Ratiaria. I have decided to abandon Debeltos and will send tribune Numerius Aureolus to engage one of them, while praetor Tiberius Coruncanius engages the other one.
Glory to the Republic !
Praetor Lucius Aemilius
OCC : The Ptolemaic empire actually accepted Debeltos as a gift, but then I had to reload as I accidentily sent my co-consul alone in the fray, leaving his troops behind. After the reload, they wouldn't take it, hence the abandonment.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, the rider you sent to Praetor Coruncanius later arrived to brief me. Having reviewed his information, I share your gloomy assessment of our situation. The war with Thrace is proving more bitter than most of us realised during the mid-term debates.
On the matter of Debeltos, it is for the Consuls to dispense with as they like, but personally I would be loathe to surrender an inch of Roman territory. Our destiny is to control south-east Europe south of the Danube. If we abandon Debeltos to rebels now, we will have to pay a second blood price for it soon. I offer the First Consul an alternative proposal - send Legio V and I away from Debeltos, but hire a few mercenaries to keep order in the settlement for us in our absence.
I also would like to speak on behalf of two of my fellow Tribunes - Cornelius Saturninus (Wonderland) and Quintus Libo (Glaucus). I am sure they are restless governing Pella and Thessalonika. Surely the Republic has need of Lower House members actively leading our armies elsewhere? I notice that the First Consul's grandson, Servius Aemilius, is en route to Melite. However, I believe more Lower House generals might assist in the war on Thrace. Specifically, one might command in Switzerland and the other might replace Titus Vatinus, who has de facto returned to the Upper House. When the First Consul has driven out the Thracians from south of the Danube, we will still have a long frontier to defend and a few additional reliable commanders would make the task easier.
Finally, I would like to praise the foresight of the First Consul in constructing forts in Gaul for Augustus Verginius and Marcellus Aemilius. It is important for our Lower House generals to keep in the field, even when guarding the frontier. This will advance their own military careers and ultimately serve the Republic by providing it with more accomplished commanders.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I fear we have indeed underestimated the Thracians. Send me against them Consul Aemilius, the Iberians will have to wait.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-26-2006, 03:03
Senators,
I will attempt to send all lower house senators to a military command within one season, if they were not already on their way. Bear with me, as the distances to travel are quite long sometimes, and it might be some time before you see combat.
On the matter of Debeltos, I sympathize with your feelings, young Numerius, but there is strategy behind this decision. The threat of war with the Ptolemaic empire has been looming over us. Even if they can not reinforce easily, they have a strong military presence in Asia Minor. For us, reinforcing is just as difficult. Not just their troops, but especially their fleet is my concern at the moment. They are vastly superior to our own navies and we can barely hold our own against the Carthagians. If they joined in that war we will have a serious problem. If Debeltos rebels, which it will, I hope it will occupy the attention of the Ptolemaic empire long enough to improve our strategic position in Asia.
Nevertheless, I have considered hiring mercenaries, but there are none to be found. I will not break up your legion as it travels, as the Ptolemaic empire have a consular-sized army stationed nearby and it would be too risky.
I will give you the choice:
A) Remain in Debeltos with your legion.
B) Abandon Debeltos and attempt to intercept Thracian troops.
C) Abandon Debeltos and invade the Greek cities, but these also will be abandoned (unless we end up bordering them).
I will not leave a small garrison in a city I cannot defend strategically. Our neighbours would be too tempted to attack them and draw us into more wars, which we really cannot afford.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Consul, do you think there is a chance that Debeltos, if left un-garrisoned, might revolt to Ptolemaic rule instead of opting for independent, rebel status? If so, that will cause an immediate war with the Ptolemies. Do we know where their sympathies lie?
Mount Suribachi
08-26-2006, 10:57
I am also rather isolated in the far SE corner of our republic, waiting for the Ptolomites to attack us, as has been foretold.
I would ask that the first Consul send my north with my legion to battle the Thracians, but I fear it is only my presence that is stopping an Egyptian attack and that as soon as I move out, they will strike.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, my scouts report that, while there are no mercenaries in Debeltos, just over the border, in Ptolemy's lands, there are half a dozen companies available: two Thracian infantry, two Thracian slingers, one Thracian light cavalry and one Thracian heavy cavalry. My preference, therefore, would be to use Legio V to try to intercept the Thracians but to hire this strong contingent of mercenaries and send them all back to garrison Debeltos. By setting taxes low and building shrines, we should be able to hold Debeltos without unrest in the absence of Legio V.
The cost would be steep - 5500 gold for the mercenaries. However, it would free up Legio V for campaign without surrendering Debeltos to rebels and having to capture it again. Moreover, given the demands of the war with Thracian, money spent on soldiers can scarcely be considered wasteful. The Thracian mercenaries are all good fighters. As Debeltos quietens, the mercenary cavalry could be transferred to the armies of the Co-Consul and Praetor Corcuncanius, who both lack a strong cavalry arm.
However, I am but an instrument of the will of the Senate and will abide by whatever decision the First Consul makes.
I am concerned over the losses we have suffered in the recent events with Thrace and I feel that all able commanders within the region should be carefully re-deployed until we can secure a strong frontier along the Danube. Perhaps spending some time to construct defensive fortifications at all river crossings directly bordering Thrace would be highly beneficial. While temporarily staffing these forts with our legions seems necessary, in the near future it may be wise to establish some small frontier garrisons that would act as the first line of defence against not only our Thracian neighbors, but all our hostile neighbors.
Another thing that concerns me is the composition of the recent Thracian army we have heard of through stories from the front. These Germanic mercenaries dealt heavy losses to our forces in the last engagement, and I feel we need to learn a much greater deal about these new foes before we make any brash decisions concerning outnumbered engagements with Thrace.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-26-2006, 14:22
Senators,
I will reflect on the many good suggestions made by you. I must now organzie my forces for the coming battle (OCC : Shopping spree), but I have time to direct a few words as some fool has doubleparked in front of my horse.
The city of Debeltos was originally an independant (OCC: Rebel) city, and now that I have razed every building to the ground, it is likely to become independant once again when it rebels.
The costs of hiring so much mercenaries is indeed prohibitive, but as no new reinforcements are expected anytime in the near future, I am inclined to hire them, especially the cavalry, to reinforce Publius Pansa and Tiberius Coruncanius. I will, however, abandon Debeltos after all, unless Numerius Aureolus wants to remain there untill such a time when hostitilies with the Ptolemaic empire break out.
Building forts at the important river crossing is a sound suggestion. (OCC: I would however build them near the river crossings, not on top of them, as otherwise the AI can't cope and would try to go around the entire river, and that would be a bit silly in my opinion).
I agree with my co-consul that he seems rather stuck at the moment. The Ptolemaic empire has sizable forces at the border and I dare not move him. However, you are posted outside the city and so your military career is progressing.
The Germans can be considered the equivalent with our hastati cohorts at least. Usually, they are equipped with large shields and assegais, in addition to their other weapons. Generally they come in groups of 120 warriors. Due to their large numbers, they can inflct horrible slaughter with a rain of assegais before attacking. They also tend to use a demoralizing war cry, which instills fear in their enemies. In addition, there are heavy troops and beserkers, which are truly dangerous foes. Their support units are quite good as well, altough they lack good missile units. But as every german warrior is equipped with assegais, they do not need them.
Mount Suribachi
08-26-2006, 16:17
I am concerned over the losses we have suffered in the recent events with Thrace and I feel that all able commanders within the region should be carefully re-deployed until we can secure a strong frontier along the Danube. Perhaps spending some time to construct defensive fortifications at all river crossings directly bordering Thrace would be highly beneficial. While temporarily staffing these forts with our legions seems necessary, in the near future it may be wise to establish some small frontier garrisons that would act as the first line of defence against not only our Thracian neighbors, but all our hostile neighbors.
A wise strategy Senator, and one that I began whilst I had control, unfortunately for a couple of reasons it was something that I barely began. Firstly for time reasons, I only had supreme command for a couple of seasons, but secondly because we quite simply do not have the troop numbers in that area to implement a system where all the crossings are defended by a fort. I agree that a small force holding the fort, with full strength legions in reserve, able to rush to whichever fort is under siege would be an ideal strategy, but it requires time, organisation and resources.
It seems Numerius Aereolus wishes to violate Senate law yet again. I shall refrain from the usual verbal attacks for it should be clear what my opinion of this man is by now. I will simply remind you all that Motion 10.1 indicates that Debeltos should be given away to a neutral nation, not kept as part of our territory. Investing any money in its safety at all is beyond foolish.
Dutch_guy
08-26-2006, 17:37
Motion 10.1 indicates that Debeltos should be given away to a neutral nation, not kept as part of our territory. Investing any money in its safety at all is beyond foolish.
Well, depending on where our current consul's Alliegence lies he may ,at his own risk, decide not to follow motion 10.1.
Now, It wouldn't be wise considering how much influence you have, Verginius, as our current consul(s) (backed by Numerius) have more influence than you do at the moment. So, they could very well get away with it...
They wouldn't even need to spend that much on getting the majority of influence behind them, you know
:balloon2:
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, I care not for what we do with Debeltos. It is a minor settlement, certainly no Byzantion. Yet, I believe that sooner or later - and probably sooner - we will be at war with Egypt. In such an event, I assume that we will wish to relieve her of her two settlements in Europe. This would leave Debeltos surrounded by our territory and hence surely a target for annexation. To have let it rebel will likely mean Legio V has to return there within a year and pay for its capture in blood again. Senator, I care not for Debeltos. But I do care for the welfare of my men and do not wish to see their lives pointlessly squandered on account of posturing in the Senate.
As to the issue of the legality of continuing to occupy Debeltos, let us recall the wording of motion 10.1:
Motion 10.1: This house authorizes the First Consul to sell or give away Debeltos upon its capture to any neutral nation.
The Senator is surely aware that motion 10.1 merely authorises us to sell or give away Debeltos - it does not instruct or mandate us to do so. It is merely giving the Consuls the power to dispose of it in that way. Such authorisation is required, following the controversy during the Senators own period of office when he gifted some Gaulish settlements to the Germans. Had motion 10.1 instructed or mandated us to do sell or gift Debeltos, I would not have seconded the motion. I cannot believe Senator Verginius, a respected lawyer, is unaware of this legal distinction. Indeed, the Senate record shows him highlighting it in an earlier controversy:
Fortunately, many in this Senate are also fools and do not know how to create effective legislation. I note with pleasure that Motion 6.13 merely authorises me to complete a Consular sized fleet. Why, thank you for the authorization. I assure you I shall not feel the need to exercise the power.
So it can be seen, the Senator is well aware of the distinction between authorisation and instruction. The Consuls are empowered to gift or sell Debeltos, but need not feel the need to exercise the power.
Anyway, this discussion is moot. The Consuls have tried to sell or gift away Debeltos and not yet succeeded. They may continue to try, I do not object. However, until they are actually able to do so, I believe nothing in Motion 10.1 precludes us holding on to the settlement - even if it mandated a gift or sale, rather than authorised one. Indeed, if we are to give away or sell Debeltos we should certainly not abandon it to fall into rebel hands. For were we to lose it to a rebellion, we can scarcely gift or sell something that we no longer possess.
GeneralHankerchief
08-26-2006, 18:50
Conscript fathers, I believe the elder Senator Vatinius once told Aureolus that he had a little of the late Quintus in him. I believe he wants to take this one step further and emulate Quintus' achievements at Appolonia.
Himself and all of Legio V are sitting in a virtual hornets' nest; the only thing that have yet to arrive are the hornets! Senator Aureolus, if you truly care for the welfare of your men then you will get out of there before Ptolemy decides that he wants it!
May I remind you, Senators, that we originally took Debeltos for honor purposes - finishing off Macedon and the last killer of Amulius Coruncanius. Those have both been met. I no longer see any purpose in holding Debeltos aside from the fact that it's more land.
Senators, in the last interim session I proposed a motion that Debeltos was to be raided - sacked and then abandoned. Sadly it did not get the required amount of seconders, but look where we are now with it! It's time to think clearly and get out of that place, I don't care who rules it after us!
Mount Suribachi
08-26-2006, 19:25
Marcellus, I must apologise for not backing your proposal. I was so focussed on avoiding having to go to Debeltos full stop that I missed your proposal which would have served as an adequate backup - although there is still the problem that if Ptolomy were to occupy the abandoned city, we would be at war with them.
Conscript fathers, I believe the elder Senator Vatinius once told Aureolus that he had a little of the late Quintus in him. I believe he wants to take this one step further and emulate Quintus' achievements at Appolonia
He wishes! The difference between Quintus and Numerius is that one was a noble Roman who did everything according to the mos maorium and achieved his greatest glory in his mature years. The other regards himself as a Roman Alexander and wishes to acrue as much glory to himself as early as possible. I doubt he will wait till he is 42 before attempting again to run for Consul...
*looks hard at Numerius*
Be careful, little Icarus, that you do not fly too close to the Sun.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Consul, I was not aware that you had razed Debeltos to the ground... in that case, and in considering Motion 10.1 which had also slipped my mind, there seems to be no other choice than to leave the city and let the people do with themselves as they will, or offer it to another nation to prevent an attack while it is still ours and defenseless. The money will be more wisely spent on our own legions and Republic.
On the matter of forts on our river borders, I support the idea but warn not to build them around any border other than the Thracian ones, as a weakly defended fort can be an easy target for a powerful nation like Egypt. They might not be able to resist attacking, then we would find ourselves in an unecessary war.
Dutch_guy
08-26-2006, 20:05
Senators, there's absolutely no merit in continuing to slander Numerius' good name any longer.
The General made a decision in occupying Debeltos, and razing it to the ground. It was a judgement call, whether it was a good one or a bad one only you decide.
Now I appreciate the delicacy of the current situation and would no more than any other man benefit from yet another war, but we cannot alter what has already happened, as that is the case we now need to decide upon what to do with the settlement. To give an overview of the mentioned options.
We could :
I ) continue the occupation.
II ) move out our forces, raise the taxes and let it rebel.
III ) move out our forces and gift it to another faction (tried this, apparently, without success.)
or
IV ) grant the settlement to Ptolemy, as a token of good-will. And relocate out forces stationed in Debeltos.
If I missed anything please say so.
Now I'm not of the opinion that Numerius has broken any law the senate has given him to obey, so I don't deem a trial or something of the like the just thing to do.
I deem we should hear Numerius out, and for the moment, give the General the benefit of the doubt...
:balloon2:
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The destruction of the buildings in Debeltos was conducted by agents of the First Consul, not by me. The Co-Consul instructed me to leave the buildings in tact upon occupation, to make the settlement more attractive to potential buyers. I happily complied with this instruction, seeing no virtue in wanton vandalism of a property we are likely to inherit.
Senators, I submit that from Flavius Pacuvius's list, only options I and II are currently possible. We occupy Debeltos or we abandon it. If we can sell or gift it, all well and good, but both Consuls efforts in this respect have failed so we cannot assume it is possible.
As I have said before, I can see no merit in abandoning it - this is no Apollonia situation. Legio V and the Co-Consul's army between them can take down the two Egyptian settlements in Europe if it comes to war.
The cost of abandoning it is that inevitably, we will have to re-occupy it. Unless the Senate is happy to nurse a piratical sea-port within the bossom of its lands.
We have debated this too long. I am sure the First Consul has already made his decision. The only thing I hope is that he leaves Legio V free to move in the event of war with Ptolemy. This will require, if we do hold on to Debeltos, that we recruit a mercenary garrison and start to build shrines to pacify a people angered by our demolition of their holy places.
This debate over the fate of Debeltos is becoming an ever increasing burden on the operations of this senate. I would propose, seeing as that the original intention of this senate was to give the settlement away, that we abandon the city if we cannot now just give it away, wait outside the walls for its citizens to rebel, then remove our legion from the surrounding lands by ship.
If Debeltos is ever to become a Roman settlement in anything more than name, it must first be a profitable settlement connected to Rome. Right now it's a black eye surrounded by angry fists. It is not worth the effort.
GeneralHankerchief
08-26-2006, 23:03
My nephew speaks the truth. The only reason Ptolemy will go to war with us is because of Debeltos. If we abandon it, the chances of war with Ptolemy decrease significantly.
I know exactly what the Motion says and what is technically required by it. I do not fear that an improper decision would be made, as we have a great Consul in Lucius Aemilis. Regardless, we all know the intentions behind Motion 10.1 and we know what the debate was regarding its capture. Numerius Aureolus seems to have a habit of bending Senatorial procedure to his will. I urge all here to be wary of him in the years ahead.
As for Flavius Pacuvius I do not understand how you think I am at odds with the Consul. Luciues Aemilius has always had my full support and I trust him to serve the best interests of the Republic at all times. Indeed, the Aemilii family as a whole stands as a beacon of proper Roman virtues. The Republic could not be in better hands. I believe you have been duped by Numerius Aureolus if you believe he is a supporter of the Consuls, for he has specifically disobeyed Consular orders and openly lied to them. No, that man is no friend to anyone but himself.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-27-2006, 00:12
Letter to the senate, spring 256 BC
Senators,
Much has come to pass.
The Thracians had launched a massive offensive and in a desperate battle (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1226651#post1226651) south of Oduba we managed to come of victorious, but at a great cost in lives. Still, the Thracian offensive is halted for now and we are redeploying our troops.
In even more terrible news, the brave Gaius Rutilius has perished (sorry about that, Swordsmaster). He fought desperately on the beaches of Melite to stop the Carthagian invasion to no avail. He managed to defeat the first invasion, but then the Carthagians sent a massive army that outnumbered him three to one. Just before Servius Aemilius could arrive to aid him, Gaius Rutilius and his soldiers bravely died on the beaches of Melite. Sensing defeat was imminent, he ordered the citizens to torch the town and leave nothing of value to the Phoenicians.
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2567/carthage3vo6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Servius Aemilius has landed in Sicily to defend the island.
Our navy has regrouped and is closing in on the Carthagian fleet once more, with our best admiral in command.
Considering the recent legal debate about motions I have come to the conclusion that I will have to attack Byzantium whether I approve of it or not, as Motion 10.2 preceeds Motion 10.6. I have ordered Debeltos abandoned and Numerius Aureolus is about to storm the walls of Byzantium.
News came just now that the Ptolemaic empire have declared war on us, without citing a reason. Accordingly, I have ordered Tiberius Coruncanius and Publius Pansa to attack their towns in Asia. They will fight these battles after Byzantium is captured. Hopefully, we will be able to recapture Debeltos before it rebels.
We are training a Consular Army to be used as the senate wishes by the next consul(s), but we strongly recommend it is used to invade Carthage itself, as we are unlikely to prevail at sea, especially as the Ptolemaic empire is terrorizing our seas as well now.
We have managed to form an alliance with the Germans, and they have even promised support against the Thracians. We are still on friendly terms with the Iberians. Gaul has been destroyed.
In spite of hot words exchanged on the senate floor, I hope you will offer prayers for all our commanders, for their succes in the battles ahead.
Praetor Lucius Aemilius
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Oh my... Consul Aemilius, firstly my congradulations to you for the hard earned victory over the Thracians, and my condolences for all the lives lost at the battle. Also, my sympathies go out to the Rutilius family for the loss of their son at Melite. It seems I must for the time being, put aside all my previous notions about Iberia as much more pressing matters present themselves. However, now I would like to suggest an alliance with the Iberians as a necessary means of protecting our western front. I urge the Consul to immediately pursue this action. I can only hope I will be deployed into military action soon Consul, as I am getting restless and my time and skills are being wasted here.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-27-2006, 01:21
Cornelius Saturninus,
I have tried to come to an agreement with the Iberians several times and they are still on friendly terms with us, but have refused an alliance. At the moment we have a financial agreement, whereby they lended us 500+ dinarii in exchange for 4 tributes of 100 dinarii. Clearly, a nice gesture to our profit, with the added benefit that an attack on us would see the loss of their tributes.
You and Quintus Libo are almost at Oduba, where you will relieve me of defense of the Danube. You are posed to attack a Thracian army next turn (which will be monday probably).
As the region lacks roads, your progress has been slow. Unfortunately, there is only one legion left for you both untill reinforcements arrive (which will take quite some time). I will give you command of this legion and I will send Quintus Libo to take over command of the legion at Luvavum, where another Thracian army is wandering about. I myself will return to Rome if possible and gather another legion as Oduba really needs two legions to be defended well.
Flavius Pacuvius is on his way to Cispine Gaul to take command there.
Mount Suribachi
08-27-2006, 14:08
Well, in some ways, it comes as a relief to me that we are now at war with Ptolomy - the kind of relief one has after eating too much rich food and wine at a feast. One knows they need to be sick, but several hours may be spent groaning with the stomach pains, knowing what is needed, waiting for ones body (an agent we have little control over) to get round to doing it. When one finally spews it all up, the relief is blessed.
At the very least it allows us to have defendable borders, though I worry about the 2 narrow points at either end of the Sea of Marmara - easy crossing points that will need to be vigourously defended. And it ends the argument over Debeltos and Byzantion. Both are now within the Roman sphere and need to be defended.
As for Thrace, I had not realised what ferocious warriors this particular brand of Barbarians are. I am coming to the conclusion that trying to hold the Danube against them is maybe not the wisest strategy long-term. For when will they ever stop sending their fearsome hordes against us? Will they ever accept peace? I doubt it. I believe occupation and enslavement are the only way to secure our lands from their threat.
Finally, I must give my warmest congratulations to the First Consul for concluding an alliance with the Germans. What are the state of their diplomatic affairs? Are they still at war with Iberia?
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-27-2006, 14:35
As for Thrace, I had not realised what ferocious warriors this particular brand of Barbarians are. I am coming to the conclusion that trying to hold the Danube against them is maybe not the wisest strategy long-term. For when will they ever stop sending their fearsome hordes against us? Will they ever accept peace? I doubt it. I believe occupation and enslavement are the only way to secure our lands from their threat.
Finally, I must give my warmest congratulations to the First Consul for concluding an alliance with the Germans. What are the state of their diplomatic affairs? Are they still at war with Iberia?
The Germans remain at war with Iberia, and are allies with the kingdom of Armenia. I intend to have Quintus Libo capture the Thracian settlement north of Luvavum (if you agree, of course) and give it to the Germans. The Thracians can be ferocious opponents, but I would advise against expanding our border beyond the Danube. Our supply situation will become even more ghastly than it already is, and we will lack a natural border. Anyhow, The Thracians have been severely chastised by now, and I hope to leave them with just three cities at the end of our consulship. That should make them less of a threat to us. Perhaps in the distant future the conquest of Dacia north of the river Danube would be wise, but I really feel we need to do much more work in our development before we should mount such an expedition.
Unfortunately, the Sarmatians are allies of the kingdom of Thrace, but not at war with us. I intend to buy their friendship next season if it is not too expensive (or rather, I was hoping you would).
OCC: Sarmatians : Declare war on our enemies Thrace and offer, say, 2000 gold. Worth a try.
They have been destroyed! GAUL IS NO MORE! Despite the news from Ptolemy and Cartage, this is a day for celebration! I hearby proclaim a public feast in the forum and five days of games in the arena, entirely funded from my own estate. Let the city rejoice in the destruction of our oldest and most vile enemy! This is a historic day!
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-27-2006, 17:14
It is indeed a holy day when the only nation ever to sack Roma vanishes from the face of the earth. I will make the appropriate sacrifices to Romulus, Jupiter and Mars. Our vengeance was long in coming, but it tastes all the sweeter for that.
GeneralHankerchief
08-27-2006, 17:21
Well, normally I don't drink... but one occasion won't hurt. Anything to take my mind off where I'm at right now.
:medievalcheers:
Dutch_guy
08-27-2006, 18:36
Well, an event of this magnitude certainly calls for a celebration !
On a more serious note, I shall offer one tenth of my fortune to Hercules Invictus to thank the god of Victory for this total victory against the Gauls.
:balloon2:
I would like to present to the Senate a work commissioned by my grandfather, who himself lived through the sack of Rome. This piece shows the re-founding of our great city in the aftermath of the Gallic defeat and expulsion from our lands. Let us remember that, though we may often feel that our actions are but a game, our ancestors lived through this terrible time. The fallen shall be forever remembered by the ever increasing glory of the Republic.
http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/rome_sciuti.jpg
(OOC: "The Second Founding of Rome, after the Defeat of the Gauls," painting by G. Sciuti)
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators, let us not lose focus at a time like this. The Gallic tribes may all be under another nation's rule, but they are not destroyed as a people. Many hundreds of them serve in our legions, many thousands more in rival armies. A keen eye must be kept on them. We mustn't lose sight of the fact that the Thracians are breathing down our necks, they are the new Gauls. Do not lose yourselves in celebration and drinking, as you may soon find yourselves too tired to fight off the Thracian hordes.
As I write this from the fort I am stationed at along the Danube, a Thracian contingent makes it's way towards the river crossing. I will attack it in the morning before it crosses our borders. There are reports of many more Thracian forces moving in from the east, reinforcements will be of the essence in the coming years. Young Galerius Vatinius has been assigned as my Tribune... quite the loudmouth, unagreeable, angry fellow. Not much of a military man either, let's hope he doesn't get himself or my men killed out there. Let us hope my next letter will be to report the succesful repulsion of the Thracians at the Danube. Ave Senators.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I cannot celebrate the destruction of Gaul at a time when our armies have been anhilated at Melite, our fleet defeated and my brother-in-law, Gaius Rutilus, slain by Carthaginians. Cornelius Saturninus is right, there is a loss of focus. I would go further and say there is a complacency here. Romans, where is your sense of honour and pride? We stand hear like cold old men, ignoring the shameful loss of our lands and instead celebrating an Iberian victory. This is absurd.
Senators - I believe that the Consuls have another year in office. I would like to know what plans they have for confronting Carthage. Do they plan to evict the Carthaginians from Melite? Are the garrisons of Aleria and Caralis to be reinforced with a Praetorian army led by a Lower House General?
I have requested a transfer to the Carthaginian front, but it has been denied. Fine. But I insist that we need at least three Lower House generals in the area even if we are just to defend ourselves: one to garrison Aleria and Caralis; one to garrison Sicily and one to reclaim Melite. At present, there is only Servius Aemilius present, a young man of 19 and only a student. We have no shortage of Lower House generals. At least two more should be sent to join Servius on our southern front.
By my rough count, we lost over 1250 men on the battles for Melite. This was more than were lost under the entire first term of Consul Aemilius (given that chirurgeons probably saved many who our battle reports record as casualties). Never again should we rely on Upper House generals to lead our armies in such crucial battles as that at Melite.
Gauls be damned, it is Carthage that is our main enemy now and it on her that all our attention should be focussed!
I wish Senator Saturninus the best of augers in his coming days. War against the Thracian barbarians has proven increasingly difficult, our losses unexpected, the number of men in their hordes greater than I had assumed. May Mars fight alongside you in your struggles to come, and may Jupiter make that fool Vatinius sleep his days away, so that his angry ramblings and poor judgement does not cost men their lives on the field.
On another note, I feel that senator Aureolus's request for three legions in the Carthaginian theatre are at present unnecessary. I do not believe Carthage would be so brash as to assault Aleria or Caralis before at least making a foothold on Sicily, and that is an act I will not let happen. If I were to make a suggestion on the situation, I would request a second legion be sent to the fort in central Sicily, that I may have a defensible, unexhausted position to fall back on should the worst of fates befall us. But I have confidence in my abilities, Carthage will be held back from Sicily, and as soon as one of our fleets can dock in Syracuse, I will charge myself with the task of retaking Melite.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Servius Aemilius, forgive me, but it seems I am not making myself clear. It is not the three legions that are urgently required in your theatre - it is the three Lower House generals. We seem to have plenty of men - we have just thrown away 1250 of them for nothing in Melite. But generals for some reason are hard to find - you are the only one in place.
Servius, I salute your willingness to put on your manly gown early and go into the field to face Carthage. It is a brave act and one that is fitting for a true Roman. But you cannot be in three places at the same time. You cannot take Melite and at the same time guard Sicily and the Sardinia-Corsica region.
Carthage has proven herself unpredictable, I submit that we should not rely on our best guess as to her intentions but should prepare for several contingencies. But if we do want to play a guessing game, my hunch is that when she has secured Melite, she will find Sardinia-Corsica a more inviting target than a heavily defended Sicily.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Thank you for the well wishes senators. I would just like to chime in here to remind the senators that before Gaius Rutilius was killed, he burned Melite to the ground. It may not be a crucial island for us to retake, in terms of any economic benefit to us. In fact, it may drain our economy more than it will help if we have to build it back up, garrisson it, spend resources on it. On the other hand, if Carthage holds on to it, they may be a bit too close to Sicily for comfort. Just things to keep in mind.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Oh, Senator Saturninus, I had hoped to enlist you as my ally in this debate! Are there no real fighters left in the Senate! I say this not to besmirch the honour of the men I address. I know First Consul Aemilius is a brave general of supreme ability. Likewise my father-in-law Senator Verginius. And indeed, the augurs suggest great things of Senator Saturninus. But abandon Melite to the Carthaginians! What is this?
We construct a great Republic, stretching from Gaul to Byzantion. We bring the benefits of Roman law, order, roads, economic development and sanitation to thousands of Italians, Gauls, Greeks, Carthaginians, Macedonians and Thracians. These people become our responsibility. Not yet full Roman citizens, but our charges - men, women and children we have sworn to protect.
Then, when a real fight starts, when we lose 1250 men in ignominious defeat, what do we do to the people we have sworn to defend? Do we say to them: sorry, you are a burden on our treasury, you must fend for yourselves. Do we say to their conquerors: fair enough, you fought well, you keep them, they are not worth our while.
I say: No! We do not surrender an inch of our ground to the enemy. More particularly, we do not abandon any of our people to the will of aggressors or the depravations of rebel bandits. If our enemies take a province from us, we come right back for it. If they knock us down, we stand up and pummel them. If they humiliate us, we anhilate them.
Senators, I debated a similar issue over Debeltos. The majority of voices in the Senate argued that we should abandon it, perchance because they considered it not cost effective to hold. At that time, I dismissed our disagreements then as a minor matter. But I see now that I was right to argue the case for not abandoning Debeltos, because it raises a broader issue of principle.
And the issue is: what is the Republic at heart? A crude economic arrangement, managed by dessicated calculating machines, interested only in the cost and benefit? Or a body of people, bound together by common culture, ruled by men of blood and honour?
Senators, I know which vision of Rome I prefer, although I am starting to doubt which better describes the present reality.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-27-2006, 22:59
Numerius Aureolus,
I apologize that you are aggrieved by my refusal, but I would be hardpressed to keep my credibility if I gave in to your requests. Nevertheless, command will soon transfer to my co-consul, and he may see things in a different light. I compliment you on the small number of losses in the taking of Byzantium, we are hardpressed to resupply our legion so far to the east.
I must say I wonder that first you say you grieve for Gaius Rutilus' death, and next you clamour about the 'throwing away' of the men I sent to save him.
The matter of Carthage is now in the hands of Neptune, Mars and the courage of our sailors. Soon our fleets will clash once again. If we are triumphant, we can probably save the other islands. Otherwise, we will not be able to safeguard them.
However the battle resolves, it is my opion that Carthage must be destroyed as we cannot win the war at sea in the long term.
As soon as I and my co-consul have decided on a suitable general, the Consular Army will march to Sicily. It is my hope that in the coming senate session, a year from now, the senate will decide to destroy the Republic of Carthage and we will send all our forces in Sicily on a campaign of conquest in Africa to end this threat forever.
Consul Lucius Aemilius speaks wisely. Carthage has certainly become an incredible danger and an expedition to deal with them in their homelands must be undertaken at once. If we do not, we shall find our cities besieged and our ports blockaded.
It is a great shame that Numerius Aureolus and his supporters had to provoke our current war with Ptolemy at a time when we could have used a peaceful eastern front and access to their markets. Perhaps this will teach others not to go looking for wars. They will find us soon enough.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, I do not object to the reinforcing of Gaius Rutilus. However, I do question the decision to send him to Melite in the first place. Such missions are the responsibility of Senators of the Lower House. It is for that reason that I am pressing the issue of redeploying more of such men to the Southern front.
I second your call for the destruction of Carthage. But that merely strengthens my call for the redeployment of Lower House generals to the southern front. The south is where the storm is gathering.
[b][i][NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]
And the issue is: what is the Republic at heart? A crude economic arrangement, managed by dessicated calculating machines, interested only in the cost and benefit? Or a body of people, bound together by common culture, ruled by men of blood and honour?
It seems clear to me that you have surely forgotten the purpose of the republic senator. The purpose of the republic is to create a nation where Roman citizens can be represented equally, to prosper, be strong, and create for their children and their children's children a world better than the one they had. Unforetunatly, this sometimes means the elimination of another people, or the abandonment of one that cannot be saved except in the distant future. This says to me that all citizens of Rome who hold this view true are men of blood, men of honor. You seem only interested in expanding the Republic's lands, growing her military and sending more men to their deaths, deaths you have used to try and push your ideals by noting the unforetunate loss of Roman life at Melite. You follow a backwards philosophy senator.
It is also strange that you should mention common culture, while at the same time forgetting that the Republic currently embodies lands far from the heart of Roman culture and ideals. Greece, Macedon, old Carthaginian lands, sections of Gaul, Thrace, even the former southern hill tribes of Italy, the Samnites and such, followed a different culture than that of Rome. Rome is far from being a singularly cultured nation, and that is because of this blatant expansionism exhibited by yourself and others. There must be a period of cultural growth across the republic as a whole to realise what you claim Rome to be, but you do not wish to give the Republic that time to take such words into action, as the Aemilii would. My family has pushed strongly for Roman expansion to draw a breathe, to work far more significantly on infrastructure and culture, all beneficial internal growth to Rome. I cannot recall you doing anything but urging the conquering of other people.
And while we are on the subject, Roman Citizenship, right now senators that is a very, very, very limited ideal. I think it may be time to extend this right to some of our most supportive and long held provinces. I will make a motion during the next senate sessions to work towards full auxilian prefectures, a provincial barracks, and then Roman citizenship for any provinces that have been held by and proven to be loyal supporters of the Republic for the last fifteen years. The people, and most notably the children of these provinces have been thoroughly Romanized, and we all know, the future begins with the children. These lands will be the strongest supporters of Rome in the many many years to come, and they have been thus far. They deserve a reward senators, let us grant them citizenship.
A messenger arrives with word from Cornelius Saturninus.
"Ave senators, I trust all is well? I bring news of the repulsion of the Thracian force at the Danube crossing. There are a few more scattered troops around the area, a retaliation may be likely. Arapeithes the Bloody Handed also lurks near by, he may gather the seperate forces into a dangerous army. Shall I stay here at the fort or cross the Danube myself to seek out the Thracians while they are seperated and weak?"
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1227353&postcount=42
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-28-2006, 01:05
Notice on the senate door :
Command is offically transferred to co-consul Publius Pansa. Kindly direct your requests and pleas to him from now on.
OCC: My report will be finished tomorrow night, kindly refrain from posting in the first consul thread untill I have posted.
OCC: As is clear from Wonderland's battle report, which I liked a lot by the way, it is best to post the legion (if you are defending) on the river crossing itself, instead of in a fort, as then you will get the benefit of defending the crossing.
Mount Suribachi
08-28-2006, 11:31
It is also strange that you should mention common culture, while at the same time forgetting that the Republic currently embodies lands far from the heart of Roman culture and ideals. Greece, Macedon, old Carthaginian lands, sections of Gaul, Thrace, even the former southern hill tribes of Italy, the Samnites and such, followed a different culture than that of Rome. Rome is far from being a singularly cultured nation, and that is because of this blatant expansionism exhibited by yourself and others. There must be a period of cultural growth across the republic as a whole to realise what you claim Rome to be, but you do not wish to give the Republic that time to take such words into action, as the Aemilii would. My family has pushed strongly for Roman expansion to draw a breathe, to work far more significantly on infrastructure and culture, all beneficial internal growth to Rome. I cannot recall you doing anything but urging the conquering of other people.
*applauds*
You are correct to point out Senator the diverse cultural, religious and ethnic make-up of our greatly expanded Republic. We are far from a homogenous whole as Numerius claims
And while we are on the subject, Roman Citizenship, right now senators that is a very, very, very limited ideal. I think it may be time to extend this right to some of our most supportive and long held provinces. I will make a motion during the next senate sessions to work towards full auxilian prefectures, a provincial barracks, and then Roman citizenship for any provinces that have been held by and proven to be loyal supporters of the Republic for the last fifteen years. The people, and most notably the children of these provinces have been thoroughly Romanized, and we all know, the future begins with the children. These lands will be the strongest supporters of Rome in the many many years to come, and they have been thus far. They deserve a reward senators, let us grant them citizenship.
The subject of citizenship is something I have discussed with my co-consul in private. I would welcome a debate on this in our next session. But know this Senators, it is not some cheap trinket to be passed out with gay abandon!
I have spoken in private with my grandfather and yourself, consul Publius Pansa, and I have come to feel that the cities of Ancona and Capua have long since deserved citizenship, and are being slighted in not receiving it. But, as you say, we must remember a careful balance, handing out citizenry like candy would only serve to destabalise the empire. It must be noted though, that Paestum and Arrettium have suffered as much as Ancona and Capua, but I feel it would be wiser to first resolve our conflicts with Carthage before extending the right to them as well. The formation of Roman heartlands outside of the city of Rome itself could only benefit the Republic.
Further more, the Republic now constitutes a realm of more than 300,000 people. Granting citizenry to Capua and Ancona now would place the Republic in a position of one roman citizen for every ten freemen or slaves. Following the resolution of our conflict with Carthage, and the granting of citizenry to Arretium and Paestum, it could be estimated to be around one citizen for every twelve to fifteen freemen or slaves. I fail to see how this could be an unfair number, and urge the senators to consider these things in the upcoming elections.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-29-2006, 10:20
I applaud the noble initiative of my grandson, Servius Aemilius.
As you are well aware I have on several occasion praised our Italian allies, both Etruscan and Latin, for their valour in battle and for the sacrifices they were willing to make for the Republic.
It has been my privilge to lead the Legio I Italia Victrix for many years, and never have I had any occasion for complaint, on the contrary, I have been filled with pride at their achievements.
I have made a long explanation to my grandson on the importance of a balance between citizens and non-citizens in our society, which I will present again when the issue is raised during the next senate session.
His initiative has my full support.
Mount Suribachi
08-31-2006, 12:31
*A messenger arrives in the Senate. He is tired, dirty, dishevelled and extremely agitated. The Speaker gives him permission to speak*
"Conscript Fathers - grave news, grave news! As you may be aware Co-Consul Publius Pansa recently took Maronia from the Ptolomites and drove their reinforcements back across the Sea of Marmara. He expected to have to hold the city against Egyptian counter-attacks, but it is not to be.
The Seleucids have crossed the straits with a massive army and laid siege to the city!
I managed to sneak through their lines to race back to Rome with this message. The assault was clearly going to be made soon, no doubt the battle has already been fought as I bring you this message. I fear it is too late to bring offerings to the Gods for a Roman victory"
https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3474/clipboard33ts4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
I told you so. I warned against taking lands from the Ptolemies, I warned against Debeltos, I warned against Byzantion, but it seems there are too many foolhardy men here that intelligent precautions needn't be taken when something looks appatising. It's a wonder some of you have lived this long.
Now look what we have. A war against Ptolemy, Thrace, the Seleucids, and Carthage. Did I not predict a war against four neighbors of vast territorial strength? I hope you all go home and pray tonight that Iberia does not see this blatant oppertunity and engage our western borders.
May the gods only ignore the arrogance of some and bestow their blessings on co-consul Pansa during this siege, he is not among those to be blamed, he is simply the messenger of some blind senators' wills.
My thoughts go to him at this time, twas my only wish to be able to serve the Republic as he has and will continue to do........
......curse my lack of years!
Dutch_guy
08-31-2006, 13:26
If I can help in anyway, I'd be honored.
As for now, I hope Publius manages to drive the Seleucid horde back.
:balloon2:
The honoured Senator Publius has no sturdy walls in which to deflect the attackers......if he bests the Selucids with his force, a force I have to add that does not contain enough sturdy Romans, he will be surely worthy of our highest accolades.
If he does not, I pledge, HERE AND NOW, to avenge his defeat or perish in the attempt!
The greed of Numerius Aureolus and his supporters has plunged the Republic into crisis. We are now at war with nearly every civilized nation in the known world. We have lost access to all trading ports in the entire eastern Mediterranean and we have be thrown into a war with Alexander\'s successors that will not end in any of our lifetimes. The Republic was in dire need of peace and stability and instead it has been given even greater wars and even fewer friends.
Rome will surely triumph over these enemies as we have over all others, but that does not excuse the actions of those who brought about this situation. The warmongering Numerius Aureolus has gravely injured the entire Republic for his personal gain.
Dutch_guy
08-31-2006, 14:03
I fear another Great Roman has died in combat...
From what I've read of the battle, it was lost even before it begun. That said, I find that our late Co Consul Publius Pansa did everything he could before falling in battle.
I do hope the Seleucid Empire gives him a fitting burial, and if not, then we'll have to do so as soon as possible.
Rest in peace Publius.
:balloon2:
Woe and the painful taking of one of the most notable of Roman son’s has befallen the Republic this day! This “Molon” has been marked and I pledge that I shall track him down unto HADES itself if needs be.
As soon as I am permitted to leave the Academies I request transfer to the East to face the Selucids.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius,"I told you so" may be the fitting response of a student to a crisis, but it does not befit an ex-Consul who aspires to a second term.
I do not comprehend your attempt to blame your son-in-law for first Ptolemy's attack on us and now Seleucia's.
I surmise that Ptolemy started a war by blockading our ports. The Debeltos expedition was irrelevant - she made no approach to that settlement, even though it was abandoned as the Senate apparently willed. The motion to take Byzantion was also irrelevant - the Consuls had no interest in the city and had made no move against it.
Why Ptolemy attacked, we do not know for sure. However, it seems likely that, by occupying the Macedonian cities of Philippi, Bylazora and Ratiara, we came to border her and she viewed us as a threat. I did not hear you, Senator Verginius, or student Servius Aemilius, speak out against taking those cities.
As for Seleucia, she also attacked us for reasons quite unconnected with Debeltos and Byzantion, neither of which border her lands. It was our presence at Maronia that apparently provoked here. A presence that again was due to our driving out an enemy who had attacked us - this time Ptolemy rather than Macedon. Again I recall no one in this House speaking out against expelling Egypt from Europe once she had struck at us in such an unprovoked manner.
A Co-Consul has just died. This is not the time for politicking. Romans are not to blame for the aggression of the successor states - Ptolemy and Seleucia alone are responsible for that. Use me as your strawman all you like, Verginius, maybe a few of your followers will pretend to believe you. Until the present crisis is resolved and I have killed Molon, liberating Marona, I will not return to the Senate but attend only to my military duties.
StoneCold
08-31-2006, 14:34
Rest in Peace Publius.
To set the record straight, the co-consul was against the taking of Byzantium, annexing of Debeltos. Also, the Seleucids did not attack Byzantium but Maronia which we capture after the Ptolemies declared war on us, so I do not see where this is a case of warmongering among the supporters of the expedition to Debeltos. As things stands, I would probably say it is a case of us trying to maintain a defense line on the Danube and reaching that line too fast with too little force on our borders. A slower expansion, longer war with Macedons and a more massive army by the time we reached our objectives would serve better to secure the border. But this is from 20-20 hindsight and we all know that all the what ifs will achieve in real life.
So now is not the time for recrimination. The way I see it is that there should not be further expansion of our territories, recapture Maronia and fortified over the land bridge into Asia Minor. Attrition war, while building up the infrastructure of our core cities to prepare for the next round. Maybe a raid or two over the borders to set up buffer states.
That's my humble opinion until I get a fuller picture from the consul report.
(seethingly)..…we shall see how easy it is for the Selucids to cross from Asia Minor when the way is slick with their blood and choked with their rotting CORPSES!
(Manius appears red-faced and close to breaking down)
Once again the true nature of Numerius Aureolus shows itself. He is a liar who seeks nothing more than personal glory. The reason for the wars with Ptolemy and Seleucia is perfectly clear. They did not like our conquests of Debeltos and Byzantium. Numerius says that it was due to Philippi, Bylazora and Ratiara, yet after we took those cities, peace still prevailed. It was only after the other two cities were taken that these wars began.
Ignorance becomes you Numerius, but the rest of us are endowed with wits through which we determine truth by logical thought. The wars began because of Debeltos and Byzantium. Debeltos and Byzantium were taken specifically because of your desire for greed and personal glory. Much of this Senate, including myself, spoke out heavy and firmly against your vanity and against the conquest of those cities. We opposed them specifically because of the risk of war with Ptolemy and Seleucia, and yet you now try to make it seem that we supported these decisions?
Your words expose you Numerius. *YOU* will kill Molon, *YOU* will liberate Marona. You are a self-serving man who will bring nothing to the Republic but ruin. Yes, go do your duties in the battle-line. You may have value with a sword, but you are a danger to all Romans when you are in the Senate.
Numerius, I don’t care for what your motives are now and I fear that you have beguiled me in supporting you previously but….
…do what you damned want with Marona, take it, liberate it, whatever! I care nought but I want Molon!
I wish to make his empty skull into a drinking vessel and my Wife wishes his most private of parts as EAR-RINGS!!
GeneralHankerchief
08-31-2006, 18:32
What did I say, Senators? Long ago, it seems, I spoke out against further eastward expansion, saying that war with Ptolemy OR Egypt would be suicide. Now look where we are, at war with both Eastern powers! Gah!
The Seleucids are right across the strait and can easily send reinforcements, taking Greece if they so desire. I *would* suggest suing for peace, but these warmongers in the Senate have demanded we keep expanding the military, so our treasury is emptied!
It is time to consolidate, Conscript Fathers. Deal with the threats closer to home than tangle with the mighty heirs of Alexander. Carthage looms nearby. We should focus our military efforts on her while our economy is rebuilt. I'm sure that Senators Aureolus and Coruncanius are apt to the task of defending Greece; after all they seem to do nothing but boast of their prowess.
I can only hope my warnings are heeded next time.
Dutch_guy
08-31-2006, 18:48
Fellow Senators,
In the Future I'd like to know exact names of those particular senators who are guilty of the warmongering, just for reference.
Oh, and then we can do something about them.
I'm saying this because remarking that other senators are doing such things sounds like a cheap way of clearing oneself, and certainly we Senate members are above such shameless self promoting tactics - or aren't we ?
:balloon2:
There are no secrets about who these warmongers are. At the interim session in 258, both Numerius Aureolus and Tiberius Coruncanius specifically argued for a declaration of war against Ptolemy and the conquest of Debeltos and Byzantium, even though that risked war with Seleucia as well. Well, now they have their wars and Roman blood will flow for their pride and their poor judgment.
Of course, Augustus Verginius never called for a war against anyone. Not against the Gauls, or Iberians. No, not old, docile Verginius. Why, I specifically recall him not calling for a war against the Iberians 5 years ago when it was obvious to everyone that we'd get into a major war with Macedon soon. Frankly, he's so peace-loving, that I doubt that he could ever hurt a man. Especially not a Gaul. Why, he hugs Gallic slaves whenever he passes them in the street!
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators,
It is with a grave heart I write this letter from my encampent along the Danube. The situation here is stable, only a small group of Thracians loom across the river, but the moral of the men is faltering due to the insurmountable odds we are facing with this new war with the Seleucids. I am keeping them as happy and confident as I can, but something must be done about this situation. They are clamoring to leave this fort and head east, to take on the bastards who killed the great Publius Pansa and destroyed Legio IV. However, I believe a quick peace with both the Ptolemies and Seleucids is necessary, or at least one or the other. Of course, if that does not come to pass, I am ready and willing to move in and take on the Seleucid aggressors. I had our agent in Maronia, Asinius Sergius, send me a report on Molon. Senators, he is not someone to scoff at.
https://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1674/molongp7.jpg
Molon, conqueror of Maronia, killer of Publius Pansa, destroyer of Legio IV.
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9623/sarmyqw0.jpg
Molon's army, or what's left of it after the battle. A large Seleucid army is reported to be coming from just across the channel however.
I fear our Republic is spiraling into destruction and dismay. The death of our second Consul in as many years is a tragedy indeed, but also a sign of our misguided ways. I pray to the Gods we will make the right choices in the upcoming years and restore stability to our great nation.
Cornelius Saturninus
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-31-2006, 22:21
The remaining consul, Lucius Aemilius, enters the senate in mourning dress...
Conscript fathers,
I have just been informed of the dramatic events that occured in the East. Given the state of the nation, I am forced to ask you to give me the power of a Dictator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator) for the remainder of my term. I am aware that this exceeds the regulatory six months, but I ask you to ignore this fact in view of our current situation.
The death of my dear friend and co-consul Publius Pansa, coming so short after the death of my previous collegae Amulius Coruncanius, has saddened me deeply. This grief is only worsened by the loss of the Legio IV Gallica Firma. Roma is in mourning. I, myself, am in mourning.
Aside from the powerful nation of Iberia, we are now at war with all our neighbours. I see the senate in turmoil, now in addition to our current conflicts we have become involved in a war with the two most powerful nations of the East, and all lay the blame for this with others.
Frankly, my fellow senators, the question of blame has become irrelevant and is ultimately to be laid at the door of the agressors. I will disregard these squabbles and spell out our current situation to you.
We are in serious trouble on our Eastern frontier as we were already overexpanded there, and with the loss of the Legio IV Gallica Firma we do not even have enough troops to hold on to what we have. We have no troops to spare on our other frontiers, but reinforcements will depart Roma for Greece immediately. The new Consular Army will stay put however. We must not react to our enemies moves, otherwise we will lose the initiative. Combined with this military disaster, the loss of trade with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empire is hurting us very hard. We might not win this conflict due to lack of courage of our soldiers, but trough lack of money to pay for their food.
There is little to be done, but rest assured I will do it. Some of my actions may prove unpopular with the senators who lack a good grasp on reality, but I urge you all to put aside your squabbles and present the Roman people with a united front. Already, on my way here, I saw people loading their furniture on carts and preparing to flee to the hills. When I asked them about this madness, they told me the senate was panicking. I deplore you to regian your composure, gentlemen. This current lack of gravitas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitas) is severely upsetting our people.
Now, I beg your leave, as it appears I will have to teach a horse to sing
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I said I would remain silent for a while, but I did not expect Senator Verginius to go so far as calling me a liar on the floor of the Senate. Now I must defend my honour. Sometime ago, Senator Verginius challenged those who besmirched his honour to a duel. It is an interesting precedent. If applied in this case, it might have the unfortunate side effect of leaving our army facing Seleucia leaderless. Alternatively, it might have the benefit of relieving Rome of ever having to endure another term under the rule of the good Senator. It is certainly an option to ponder.
Apparently, my "lie" is my interpretation of why Ptolemy and Seleucia attacked us. Quite how such an interpretation can be a lie, I do not know. Does Senator Verginius believe I have spoken to the rulers of Ptolemy and Seleucia about their motives, but misrepresented them here? I suspect the Senator is claiming my interpretation is false, rather than knowingly false but then care with words is apparently not the man's strong suite, as shown by his spurious arguments over recent Senate motions.
Senator Verginius's "argument" is that our bordering with Egypt could not have been the motive for their attack because they waited two years before striking us. By the same "logic" we could say that our conquest of Melite was not the motive for Carthage's recent invasion because they waited even longer! Furthermore, Senators, remember - we occupied Debeltos in Spring 257. According to the First Consul's report, Ptolemy waited until Spring 256 to strike us. She waited a whole year. Hardly a close conjunction of events. The fact that she ignored an abandoned and undefended Debeltos when she did attack suggests that it was of little concern to her.
On the matter of Seleucia's declaration of war, not even the fig leaf of temporal ordering covers Verginius's conjectures. Byzantion and Maronia fell the same season, this Spring. The next season Seleucia attacked Maronia, which bordered her, and not Byzantion, which did not. Quite how the Senator infers from these events that Byzantion was the spark for war, I know not.
Members of the Lower House all have access to seers and augurs who foretell the future. I say to them, if you believe my interpretation is wrong and Senator Verginius's to be right, consult them. Look at the signs and portents made in previous years. What do they tell us about the consequences of our actions? I am confident they will confirm that if we had not taken Debeltos and if we had not taken Byzantion, but still taken Philippi and Maronia, we would still have been attacked by Ptolemy and Seleucia.
Senators, it is a harsh world we live in. Any faction we border seems inevitably to seek war with us sooner or later. That Iberia has not yet done so may be just because we have only recently shared a border with her. Remember Senators, we had a land border with Ptolemy before we had one with Iberia. I doubt any of our men stationed in Gaul sleep easy.
So much for Senator Verginius's charge that I am a liar. Now I wish to raise a specific falsehood he himself has uttered. He says that I argued for war with Egypt in the last session of Senate. Senators, consult the record! Show me where in the transcript I argued thus! For if I did call for war, it is curious that I did not second Motion 10.15 which authorised a declaration of war with Egypt.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1171910&postcount=1
I will, however, hear no criticism of Senator Coruncanius - his prediction of the inevitability of war with Egypt has been proved right, as has been his older call for us to take the war to Carthage while she was weak.
So far, the fates have been less kind to Senator Marcellus Aemilius and his motion 10.14 calling for war with Iberia. If he had gotten his way, we would have been attacked by four neighbouring powers (Carthage, Thrace, Seleucia and Ptolemy), while ourselves attacking the last (Iberia). In such an event, what, exactly, I wonder, does he propose we would then have "consolidated"?!
Still, I suppose I must be charitable to Marcellus. As I say, we live in a harsh world, and there is still time for Iberia - like Macedon, Thrace, Illyria, Ptolemy and Seleucia - to turn on us despite our doing nothing whatsoever against them. In the event of such a further act of infamy, I hope all Senators in this House will have the dignity and decency not to make good Romans the scapegoats for the perfidy and aggression of our enemies!
GeneralHankerchief
08-31-2006, 22:57
Really now, Aureolus. Do not consider yourself blameless.
I am confident they will confirm that if we had not taken Debeltos and if we had not taken Byzantion, but still taken Philippi and Maronia, we would still have been attacked by Ptolemy and Seleucia.
No offensives have been directed at Philippi, and Maronia was originally Ptolemaic. Of course if we had taken Maronia we would have been attacked! Ptolemy would now be at war at us because of this action!
Senator Verginius's "argument" is that our bordering with Egypt could not have been the motive for their attack because they waited two years before striking us. By the same "logic" we could say that our conquest of Melite was not the motive for Carthage's recent invasion because they waited even longer!
So by your logic Ptolemy attacked us because we border her. Specifically, settlements that you have taken border her.
Look at the signs and portents made in previous years. What do they tell us about the consequences of our actions?
I'm afraid logic rules out here. Action - we take cities that border Ptolemy and Seleucia. Consequence - we are at war with Ptolemy and Seleucia.
So far, the fates have been less kind to Senator Marcellus Aemilius and his motion 10.14 calling for war with Iberia. If he had gotten his way, we would have been attacked by four neighbouring powers (Carthage, Thrace, Seleucia and Ptolemy), while ourselves attacking the last (Iberia). In such an event, what, exactly, I wonder, does he propose we would then have "consolidated"?!
10.14 was proposed back in the interim session, when Debeltos and Byzantion had yet to be taken! The motion was meant to designate Iberia as the primary military target of the Republic while we maintained our borders in the east. Had my motion passed and your eastern motions failed (which was the goal) we would not have had that problem, and you would currently be clamoring to be sent to Iberia where the action would be.
I will gladly accept a duel if you would like one Numerius.
Many more falsehoods have been created in this latest speech. First, I shall start by recounting from the scrolls your call for war with Ptolemy.
We have planned to take the Danube as our frontier. Logically, that dictates expelling Egypt from Europe. If war with Egypt comes, we must strike ruthlessly to that end. With Legate Coruncanius and pro-Consul Pansa to the west of Egypt's European provinces, and Legio V soon to be stationed to their east, I believe this could be swiftly accomplished
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1216266&postcount=544
No, Senators, it is in the East that the true challenge lies. The East, where the successors of Alexander command vast Empires that rival even our expanded Repubic.
Senators, we must prepare for that challenge. Taking Byzantion from Greece is a first step. We have an opportunity to do so almost costlessly now, before Egypt or Seleucia steal the prize from under our noses.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1218069&postcount=580
Surely you will not claim that these statements advocated peace with our neighbors. Pah, more lies from you. Shall I recount your own blatant lies to Publius Pansa as well?
After the "battle", Numerius's turns to his Greek scribe to compose a report to the Co-Consul, Publius Pansa. The Co-Consul's instruction to exterminate the town burns in the young Tribune's mind. Such an order is vile and criminal, but Numerius must tread carefully. For now, his career is dependent on the good will of the Consuls. In his half-term at the helm, First Consul Aemilius responded to Numerius's requests for the chance of battle with a weary indulgence. Numerius does not want to anger the Co-Consul. The Greek scribe looks keenly at his master, as Numerius wrestles with the wording of his communication. The scribe's sympathies are clearly with the people of Debeltos. At last, Numerius comes to a form of words that he hopes will not be considered too insurbordinate.
"Tell him we will send Praetor Coruncanius the head of Argeos. Maybe that idea will satiate the Co-Consul's bloodlust."
The Greek scribe's face looks ashen: "Who shall I task with this? One of the Samartians? Or perhaps a bastarnae?"
"Great Jove, no!" laughed Numerius. "I know Praetor Coruncanius. He will be glad to know we have avenged his son's killer. But he is not a barbarian. He voted against sending out assassins against Argeos. He is a civilised man and would not thank me for such a gift. Let the Praetor mourn his son undisturbed; let the Co-Consul think he has his pound of flesh; and let King Argeos have a decent burial, head and all."
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1222728&postcount=38
I will not claim your actions were wrong in disobeying the Consul on this matter, but you lied in a situation where the truth was your friend. If you cannot be trusted to uphold Roman virtues even when they are your aid, how can we expect you to abide by them when they obstruct your way?
Your other arguments are transparent. You cannot hide the fact that war with Ptolemy erupted after we eliminated his last enemy in Europe. Nor can you hide the fact that war with Seleucia began only after we shared a border with him; the border itself being the direct result of your legislation and urge for eastward expansion.
Act like a true Roman Numerius and drop these pretenses. If my accusations are false, you should be so outraged at such an improper insult to your honor that you would not back down from a duel. Yet I see you hesitate even now, what does that say about you?
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-31-2006, 23:55
I will not allow my generals to fight each other while there are several wars on !
In spite of your many differences, both of you are good generals and I need you alive. You may satisfy your honour when the Temple of Janus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Janus) closes their doors. If you feel you must contest, play a mock combat on Mars field instead.
You are not exactly inspiring the confidence of our citizens in our military, turning on each other while enemies cross our borders. For shame !
Dutch_guy
09-01-2006, 00:05
Conscript fathers,
It seems that this senate is as divided as it has ever been, saving ones dignitas and honor seems to be more of an issue than driving the Seleucid, Thracian, Ptolmaic and Carthaginian hordes out of this world. Our enemy's must be mightily pleased, I bet their agents are sitting around enjoying our brothels and foods while we do their work for them, on the senate floor itself !
Good to know it is, that our esteemed senators Numerius and Verginius are willing to have a duel - yes a duel ! - at the time when our eastern front is being over-run, our co consul has died and our enemy's are more powerful than ever !
Good to know that such people wield so much influence at this moment of crisis!
What am I trying to say, one might ask ?. Well it should be clear, I urge the senators Verginius, Numerius and even Aemilius to put aside their petty arguments - for that is what they are in light of the current events - and join forces to humiliate our enemy's as we did Pyrrhus years before !
Is this so much to ask, Senators ?
For the people, the legions, and the Republic I for one hope it is not...
:balloon2:
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Do not worry, First Consul and Senator Flavius Pacuvius, I have no intention of duelling Senator Verginius. He is game enough, but I fear at his age he may do himself an injury and my dear wife Lucilla, his daughter, would never forgive me if that happened.
I must, however, parry the latest verbal thrusts taken at my good name. The charges that I am personally responsible for the declarations of war on us by Egypt and Seleucia are made no less objectionable by the fact that I am currently tasked with guarding the exposed part of our Republic. I cannot let the accusations reach the ears of my men without them first being exposed for the ignorant and hyperbolic rants they are.
Senator Marcellus Aemilius seeks to strike the first renewed blow against me. I see that you are unbecoming of any charity from me. If you aspire one day to lead this Republic, you really should keep up with current events.
Let me make this simple for you. Of course, an offensive was directed at Philippi. It was led by the late Co-Consul Publius Pansa while the town was held by Macedon in Spring 258. I led an offensive against Debeltos, also held by Macedon, in Spring 257. The former offensive - along with those at Ratiaria and Bylazora - led us to border Ptolemy. I submit that it was the creation of a land border that ultimately led to Ptolemy's declaration of war in Spring 256. Debeltos came later and so was irrelevant to the fatal creation of a land border - we already had one. As I say, all Lower House members have the otherworldly means to test this. We need not debate it further here.
Nor will I argue at length with you about Seleucia as you seem incapable of maintaining two distinct arguments in your head. You confuse the reasons for war with Seleucia and Ptolemy. I only mentioned Maronia as a possible casus belli with Seleucia, not with Ptolemy. Suffice it to say, our only land border with Seleucia was not due to any settlement I have taken (Byzantion borders Greek held land, not Seleucid). Rather, the border was at Maronia which was taken by Co-Consul Publius Pansa.
As to my oldest accuser, Senator Verginius, I thank you for finding my words and reading them aloud so all the Senate can hear that they did not call for war with Egypt.
The first quote merely foretells the lightning offensive we did conduct to drive Egypt from Europe after she so pefidiously - but so predictably - attacked us.
The second quote, about Byzantion, was also prescient. Do you deny that the two successor states, now both at war with us, combine to pose a greater challenge than Carthage or Thrace? And if they do, is not walled Byzantion the best pace to hold them? Or would you have them freely ranging inland to Tylis, Ratiara, Bylazora and beyond? And if we wish first to consolidate, to deal with Carthage, the natural place to hold the successor states at bay is at the Bosphorus straits. You do not quote it, but I vaguely recall making an analogy between the straits and the Massilia ford. If I did not, I should do so now - we may hold the east at bay across the straits for many years, much as we did the Gauls across the Massilia ford. That is why retaking Maronia is the first step to restoring our position in the East. But Byzantion is by far the stronger half of the line.
Thank you also, Senator Verginius, for reading stories of my victories, I am flattered by your interest. But please you must remember not to believe everything you read.
Out of respect for my friend Lucius Aemlius, I shall refrain from further comments on this matter until the present danger has past. However, I will only hold my tongue so long as Senator Aureolus pursues a course of action that will aid in stabilizing our fractured borders. If he once again tries to further stretch our resources or create further wars, not even Jupiter himself will be able to silence me.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I am grateful to Senator Verginius for his forebearance. If Senator Marcellus Aemilius wishes to return to the argument - he may take a free punch at me; I will not retaliate. I too will consider this matter closed for now; I really must get back to the front.
Cornelius Saturninus is right - the situation there is even more severe than one might imagine. Maronia is not within a season's march of Byzantion and so avenging the Co-Consul will not be easily achieved. We must trust to the strategic brilliance of our First Consul and the fighting spirit of our men to see us through this crisis.
Senators of the Republic,
I have rested and regained my composure but it is true that I will not forget the death of such a Hero of Rome, one whom I looked up to and admired as a personal Hero for many years.
However, I agree that the remaining Co-Consul shall take full Consulship as of now and for the remainder of his term. I believe his used of the term “Dictator” is somewhat misguided.
Has anyone considered withdrawal? If the Consul AND notable members of the Senate believe we are overstretched what shame is there then in withdrawing to a point more defensible?
It is, perhaps, the last of all options but one I firmly believe we should allow the Consul to do should he feel it is required.
Please Senators let the Consul hear your voice on this matter, he must know that even such a distasteful act as withdrawing is still acceptable in a dire situation as this.
Currently it is good that we have a Consular army awaiting deployment and I agree that it should stay in Italia until we know more of the Carthenaginian intent as well as the Selucids. However, I strongly feel that WHATEVER the cost we will have to raise two more Legions to support the Eastern Front even if we do withdraw from the current predicament.
If we can, it would be prudent to re-enforce Byzantion if possible, it is a defensible city with high walls and potentially can withstand an assault by an enemy more than twice the defenders numbers, however, I am unaware of what infrastructure is in place there. It would be essential at this time though to hire as many mercenaries as is possible before the Selucids arrive.
I would dearly love to review the tactical situation to the South in more detail also, what is happening in Melite now? How fairs the Legion in Sicily, are they ready for Carthage?
It saddens me to see the situation develop into what it has. And even more so to see that those responsible will not accept the consequences of their poor foresight.
After careful thought, I care not for what has led us up to this event, I can only say what I feel must be done now.
I will no longer listen to the foolish words of an ignorant madman. My own father, Manius Aemilius, has more sense and wisdom than the bloodlusted and logicless Numerius Aureolus. I dare call that man a coward and a thief. As only cowards would not accept responsability for the consequences their actions bring, and only thieves would steal a dark moment such as this in an attempt to divide the senate. I do not care what personal gain Aureolus had or has to hold Byzantium or to have taken Debeltos, but send him there. Send him to Byzantion. Let him wallow in the mess he has created.
In the meantime, I suggest the Republic take a serious breath. We have overexpanded beyond the limits of our own ability to maintain a military supply line, to support our territories monetarily, to trade profitably, and to defend Rome as a whole.
I would advocate the serious consideration of territorial withdrawel. Let Numerius hold Byzantion till his dieing days if he wishes, but the Republic must consolidate its gains. My personal advisors and I have discussed this in length, and we feel that the best course for a withdrawal would involve maintaining the Roman frontier of Gergovia and Comata in the west, holding Luvavum in the north, and making a full, uncompromised withdrawal in the east to create a new, more defensable frontier. A new eastern frontier consisting of Aquilaia, Segestica, Delmatia, Skodra, Antigonea, Appollonia and Thermon would provide the Republic a much more defensible, if not greatly reduced, frontier in the east. After the infrastructure and internal defense capabilities of the Republic are significantly increased on a widespread scale could we hope to reclaim the abandoned territory, if that is still the wish of the senate at such a time.
I have made many, many proposals over my short time as a senator, and the vast majority of them, in hindsight, would have saved the Republic many defeats, many disgraces, and many Roman lives. But unforetunatly the greed of certain men would not allow my proposals to acquire enough support. Perhaps now, with disaster after disaster befalling Rome due to the ill judgement of these men, things may be seen in a different light by those who are still unsure of their position. I know where I stand. Rome must consolidate, it must rebuild the armies, it must provide a solid frontier, it must restore trade, it must greatly increase its infrastructure, it must become profitable and a source of pride for its people again.
....because Rome as a whole has spent far too long in desperate wars. We have spent far too long leaving peace at the mercy of our neighbors. We may be forced to defend our borders, but we are not forced to cause our people the same suffering our soldiers endure in the peoples' name. Open your eyes to logic. Mars is not the only god. There are many gods who Rome could be glorious in its worship of as well, and these gods are gods of peace.
Senator Servius Aemilius,
What exasperates our situation is that to date, none of those neighbours around us have accepted ANY motions of Peace.
Long and hard have our diplomats worked and only very recently have we managed to secure some form of agreement with another nation…..that of Germainia.
Whilst your call for peace is a prudent and needed one, I have to say that even at my young age I am jaded with the diplomatic situation around us and do not hold any hope for a negotiated ceasefire of any sort, even if we DO withdraw and leave an unoccupied buffer between ourselves and the Selucids.
They have smelt our blood and I do not believe they will relinquish, what they perceive is an advantage of military might.
However, your call for Senator Numerius Aureolus to be posted to Byzantion finds a place in my heart. Whatever has caused our Republic to reach this stage is immaterial and many blame Senator Aureolus…….personally, I do not, the vote was open…and the Senate voted.
Hind-sight leads us to place blame but the true blame lays with ALL those who voted in truth. That said, with Senator Aureolus’s insistence that he will be most capable against the Selucids, I agree with you and also call that if possible, he be sent to hold Byzantion at any cost!
If he can draw the attention of the giant, then we may yet have time to rebuild our legions and develop our cities so we can secure a more defensible frontier in the East.
The trouble is that we are in peril not only in the East but also from the direction of Thrace AND Carthage. Whilst I feel we can deal with Carthage aggression swiftly as they are closer to us the situation to our North East and East is a difficult one to rectify.
This will not occur over night and if Senator Aureolus can buy the Republic sufficient time to do this, then perhaps he will have redeemed himself in the eyes of his accusers?
Let it not be said though that I blame him, nor that I have forgotten that the Selucids have…..unprovoked…..taken a personal hero from me. I will have my flesh from the Selucids backs one day….but I have grown to understand I have a great many years ahead of me to do this.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I would like to share with you some private correspondence I perhaps should have revealed earlier, although I fear it would have been lost amid in the recriminations.
Immediately upon hearing of the outbreak of the battle of Maronia, I despatched a messenger to Co-Consul Publius Pansa, in my arrogance presuming to give him tactical advice on the battle. Unfortunately, my rider arrived too late and the reply I received came not from the now dead Co-Consul, but from his killer, General Molon.
It read:
To the Roman Senator "Numerius"
Ah, Numerius the Pretty boy, I've heard about you. They say the people round here regard you as some kind of conquering hero. Then again, they said the same about Publius Pansa and his reputation didn't help him.
He took a long time to die mind you, took most of my bodyguard with him. I didn't have much horse to start with, but he had even less. And his men, well, they fought bravely - not a single Roman ran away, every last one fought till he died. Very admirable.
I look forward to meeting your acquintance on the battlefield.
Molon
Perhaps the Senate will share the shock, revulsion and outrage I felt upon hearing this message. If Senator Verginius detected a note of vanity in my declaring that I would kill Molon and I would liberate Maronia, perhaps he will now understand that I was sorely provoked by this thing, Molon.
But Senators, after long and careful reflection, I have decided that my initial reaction was right. I must immediately march on Maronia with Legio V to challenge the Seleucid invaders. Moreover, I will need every man I can find and so should abandon Byzantion completely.
Surely there is no Senator in this House who does not now understand that there are two gates - landbridges - from Asia Minor to Europe. One is at Maronia; the other at Byzantion. It serves us nothing to keep one gate closed, if the enemy can freely walk through the other. Legio V is too small to both garrison unruly Byzantion and confront the Seleucids. Therefore, the city must be left to its own devices. Perhaps the best outcome would be for it to rebel. Alternatively, it may fall to the Greeks who oppose it across the straits. It matters not.
What matters now is that the current Seleucid breach of the straits be plugged. If it is not, within a season, multiple Seleucid armies will flood through into Europe, threatening our settlements at Philippi, Bylazora, Ratiaria, Debeltos and Tylis. Once they are out in the open, we will not be able to cover all our territory and we will be exposed.
I am the man to try to plug the breach. Not because I am the best man, but because I am the only man. Praetor Coruncanius is the next closest at Tylis, but he is too far away from Maronia and needed to confront Thrace to the north. Legio V is the only formation close enough and free to confront Seleucia. And I am the only general who is close enough to lead Legio V.
Senators, I have communicated the above to the First Consul. I have requested that I be sent to the plains outside Maronia, there to await the attack of General Abscanthius or General Molon or both. The First Consul has not replied and I will acquiesce to his decision regardless. But I make this statement so that the Senate can better understand the current crisis.
Lucius, it seems like you have passed up an opportunity to engage the Seleucids in an open field battle south of Tylis. Ok, fine, but if I end up having to dislodge a large number of the bastards from a city, you owe me five bottles of the finest wine!
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-02-2006, 00:41
Their numbers were too great for even your legendary skill. I am hoping they will take the city, split up and leave a garrison. Then we will turn the tables and attack them with a Consular-strength army. Let's see how they like those figs :2thumbsup:
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-02-2006, 15:05
I have corrected the remaining errors in my last reports. I still await news of tribune Quintus Libo.
Mount Suribachi
09-04-2006, 09:40
It appears Quintus Libo has won a legendary victory! I await with anticipation news of how he pulled off such a remarkable feat.
Firstly Senators, I have to report that I am very happy to have left my education and I am able to now serve the Republic in a fuller capacity as a Governor.
Now, has Quintus Libo won against the Selucids? If so, this is great news as my studies indicated that they will be our greatest foe by far.
Numerius Aureolus, I would not be happy should Byzantion be abandoned. Much was vaunted prior to its occupation and much invested in that venture. Whilst I understand your appraisal of the tactical situation I am not so convinced that what you propose is the best recourse, the Consul has been working hard these few past seasons and whilst we cannot oppose the Selucids just yet, I feel we now have the groundings that will allow us to do so very soon and that we have more time than you advise.
You advise that there are too bridges across the straits but propose to abandon one of them?? Surely it would make tactical sense to remain stationed where one such bridge exists so that the other commanders and the Consul will know where the next threat will come from?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Your words are wise, Senator Manius Coruncanius. As you will gather from the First Consul's report and the accounts of my battles, when I last spoke, the First Consul had already decided that the time was not right to confront the Seleucids around Maronia. Instead, Legio V remains based at Byzantion, securing the city while also capable of acting aggressively.
Praetor Coruncanius and Cornelius Saturnius are moving to drive the Seleucids away from Tylis. If our sea blockade of the straits had been effective, I would have welcomed the opportunity to retake Maronia. However, with the Seleucids still capable of crossing over from Asia, Legio V will probably have to remain guarding Byzantion until the situation has stabilised.
We will have to see if the Seleucids continue to rely on the Maronia landbridge to enter Europe or whether they try to also take the Byzantion one. Needless to say, Legio V is ready for them if they try to take the city.
I agree Senator Aureolus,
Maronia is untenable at this time but I feel that a strongly placed Legion as you are will be better served in Byzantion as it continues to channel the Selucids into and through a knonw location - somewhere they can be ambushed and encounted on our terms.
Congratulations are in order for your Raid by the way. I have no favour of burning settlements but both our current lack of funds and the actions of the Selucids left us no option. It was a shame we were not in a position to fully commit to a blockade that would have meant that devil-dog Molon was isolated.
Perhaps it might be tactically prudent to do the same again once we have legions in place to fully close the Maronia land-bridge as the straits are a very defensible border.
Senators,
I know I have not been in attendance as much as I would have liked but have I missed something here?
I was recently and briefly in “command” of the new Consular army, Legio II Sabina Quintia, and I heard from many in that army that they were to embark shortly for Afrika.
Have we had this discussed? I realise that certain tactical nuances are the pre-occupation of the Consul but isn’t a full scale invasion of a major landmass something that would have been normally discussed in the Senate?
Really, I ask the main question: Is this to be an invasion of occupation or a “raid”?
With our Eastern flank so pressed wouldn’t a Consular army be better deployed to that theatre of war and a Legion size army be assigned to “raid” Carthenaginian North Afrika?
Senator Coruncanius, when there are consular sized Carthaginian armies in Melite and Sardinia, and our information relays that there are no less than an additional 10,000 active, and mobile Carthaginian soldiers in Afrika, moving the second Consular army to the east would not mean perhaps the loss of one or two cities whose conquest was ill-thought to begin with, as the current situation with the Seleucids and Byzantion goes. It would place the entire western half of the Republic in dire circumstances. Need I remind you that Rome is in the west, not the east. The second consular army is required in the west. To send it abroad would be the death knell of Rome. Now I don't know about you senator, but I will not be the one to blow that horn.
We need armies, Senators. In order to raise sufficient armies for the wars on all our fronts, we will require vast sums of money. Money that has now been denied to us by the lack of trade with Seleucia and Ptolemy. The armies will bleed themselves to death in victory if we cannot restore the Republic to internal prosperity. Yet, Rome no longer has the resources with which to provide this domestic development. The cities of Carthage are close and their wealth is vast. A strike into the heart of the Punic lands will cripple one foe and give us the means with which to defeat all of the others. We must take Carthage and use her wealth towards victory in the East.
A messenger enters the senate and slips quietly through to senator Servius, presenting him with a message and swiftly taking leave. Servius stands.
Forgive me, but it seems I must attend to some urgent personal business.
At that, he dismisses himself from the senate proceedings, but not before ordering the guards to allow messengers bearing his seal into the senate floor.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators, indeed we need gold to fill our war chest as our current economic situation is desperate to say the least. But I fear a full scale invasion and occupation of Africa would be a disaster. In order to successfully organize and complete a campaign of that magnitude, we need a large surplus to begin with. The deserts are a harsh and unforgiving place, I fear our men and leaders are not used to them and can be taken advantage of by the Carthaginians. As already pointed out, they have tens of thousands of troops just waiting for a few foolish legions to come into their grasp.
Mark my words noble Senators of Rome, any general and army under him we send to Africa with the intention of conquering the whole of the place and occupying it, will never return.
Instead, I propose an alternative. Instead of trying to conquer all their cities, sending our legions on a futile campaign through the vast deserts on overly long, hard, exhausting marches where they will be isolated and destroyed, let us concentrate our forces and only take a few key Carthaginian cities. Utica, Carthago, Hadrumentum and Thapsus are our best targets; coastline cities, bring in more wealth than the hovels deep in the desert, and can be more easily defensed and reinforced.
https://img420.imageshack.us/img420/2995/africainitialinvasionef1.jpg
Numbered in order of priority for our initial invasion.
These cities and their surrounding provinces have all the resources we could need, and well established roads and ports to transport them and generate wealth.
After having established a secure foothold and replenishing our forces as necessary, we can look towards expansion if we feel the need to do so. Hippo Regius would be the next good target at this point. Perhaps we could take Lepcis Magna as well, but I fear it is too isolated for our own good, and may not even be worth it in terms of production and income. I see Servius Aemilius is on his way there, and would urge the Consul to reconsider this action. It would be more prudent to send a fresh legion into the more heavily defensed heart of the north-east Carthaginian provinces.
https://img420.imageshack.us/img420/2784/africafurtherexpansiondw2.jpg
Possible further expansion towards Hippo Regius. Lepcis Magna, a more dangerous gamble.
Senators, I urge you all to listen to reason here. There is no point in sending our men further into the desert than necessary, at least not right from the get go. We must first take their coastline, and be able to hold on to it. We should leave thier north-western coastline open however, to give them incentive to escape our coming wrath and perhaps mount an invasion into Iberia. In any case, the plan I've outlined will likely give us the gold we need to continue our existence as the most powerful nation on earth.
Bear in mind, we need many men to be able to occupy even just the area I've mentioned. The Carthaginian retaliation will be swift and heavy-handed. We must be prepared.
I fully concur with Cornelius Saturninus, we must be very careful in this venture. We must sieze the jewels of their cities and milk all we can from them in slaves, silver, and resources. Let us take Carthago, Utica, Hadrumentum, Thapsus, and perhaps Hippo Regius. We shall put Carthago herself to the sack and spoils will be vast indeed. The rest we shall enslave and all we shall occupy. These are not poor Gallic provinces to be plundered and abandoned. These are rich territories that will benefit their owners greatly in the long-run.
We must gather all the forces we can for this attack. The East must be given the men necessary to maintain borders, but all surpluses must be immediately allocated to landing two full Consular sized armies in Africa within seasons of one another. Only with two full forces of this size can we hope to conquer and hold these territories. One may strike west along the coast and the other south. In this way they will support each others' flanks and protect the inner cities of Carthago and Hadrumentum from attack. Even if those cities are besieged, their walls can hold for long enough for the main force to return for their rescue. In this way, two armies under two generals could take and hold all the resources necessary to bring victory in the East.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I appreciate your support noble Verginius, however I don't believe only two legions are sufficient to hold the East. I am currently near the hot zone and have reports of large armies looming ahead. I believe at least three full legions are necessary, maybe an oversized one too. Four legions holding the fort in the east would be perfect if we had the resources, in a perfect world. But of course I understand we are pressed for money and men so three would be sufficient. As already noted, we need to send all the men we can to be successful in Afrika.
Dutch_guy
09-04-2006, 23:32
I fully agree with what Cornelius Saturninus and Verginius have said, one thing, however, worries me. I would like the exact details of what we're up against, up to the last Carthaginian Peasant. Is there any chance we could order our agents to infiltrate the Carthaginian troop recruiting settlements? Or for that matter all the settlements which we hope to take ?
I'm of the opinion that we aren't using our agents enough and to their maximum ability. We should sabotage their military buildings and temples, take out their generals and captains before a fight, and make our spies brief us of our enemies strength and troop location. Spying, Sabotage and assassination may not be the most honorable way to wage a war, but if we put our Roman agents to work who knows how many lives we could save ?
:balloon2:
Cornelius Saturninus, those were my thoughts exactly. Not only are those cities close, they are Carthage's most important. Once these are taken, it will not take much to hold them since Carthage's main source of income will have been captured. This plan permentatly cripples Carthage, keeps our forces out of the desert, and provides the much needed income.
GeneralHankerchief
09-05-2006, 01:13
As seen with Gaul, factions that are not finished completely will re-emerge at some point. In this case, if we drive the Carthaginians off the coast they will be far from finished. If we are not careful, Senators, we could be facing a situation worse than Massilia Ford in a number of years.
In this case, I think a two-stage attack would be most prudent. Meaning that we first knock out the cities on the coast such as Carthago and Utica. Once they are ours, we pause from conquering. Pacify our conquests, and Romanize them, while still keeping our forces in the region. Then, after this has been done, send the legions to conquer the rest of the cities in the desert and finish off the Carthaginians.
Regarding the placement of my nephew Servius and his legion, I believe that Lepcis Magna was chosen for the precise reason that some senators are complaining about it - it is far away from the main body of Carthaginians. I believe that this expedition was designed to cause some movement in the forces west of Carthago, drawing them east and thus making it an easier time for the main force which is to eventually land.
To clarify, Senators, I do not propose sending two legions. I propose sending two full sized Consular armies; forces as large as logistics allow us to maintain in one body. We already have one fully formed and ready in Italy and a second is being fast created. Yes, Carthage has many men in arms, but we will be able to face their armies on equal terms. Though they outnumber us, proper strategic movements should allow us to engage and destroy each of their formations individually.
It is certainly a risk, but it is one worth taking. If we are to make an expedition to Africa at all, it must take such a prize to ensure our victory in the East. Only minor plunder will simply be a waste of men and resources that could be better diverted elsewhere. We must strike decisively or we must not strike at all.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators, I write to you from Tylis (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1234321&postcount=46). Yes, it is once again in our hands. The people are subdued and happy after the battle, but a small garrisson could not hurt. I hope word reaches Consul Aemilius soon so that I may be on my way from here and take on the real menace from the east, Molon.
Senators, it seems there are many questions presented here and I would like to add my thoughts to each one…..
Senator Servius Aemilius,
Whilst I agree that we need a force in the West to defend our homes, I was questioning the Consuls proposal for that “defending force” to be sent out to Afrika.
As you state “To send it abroad would be the death knell of Rome”, if you stand by those words then the Consular army embarked would remain in Rome. Does not Carthage count as “abroad”?
My position is that I do not wish to see a Consular army unused; however, I feel that the Selucids are the greater military threat.
Senator Augustus Verginius,
I have to fully agree with you, a concentrated strike at the heartlands of Carthage will enable us to have slaves for population and funds for building much needed infrastructure. My main point was that such a large undertaking would normally have been previously discussed in the Senate.
I grow alarmed at the Consuls use of the word “Dictator” and that he was appearing to take the title to heart.
Also, can we be sure we can cripple Carthage by taking these cities? What do our spies say of the Carthenaginian forces posted further afield, could they be used to retake their cities?
Senator Cornelius Saturninus,
I also agree with your tactical assessment. If we are to invade and both cripple Carthage as well as line our treasury, we must concentrate on their most profitable and developed cities.
The two main ones are even Walled cities, Carthago and Hadrumentum, which means that when the Carthage reprisal starts we will have sturdy defence from which to withstand the storm that will come.
From the Maps presented by you their cities seem excessively UN-defended. I find this strange and perhaps worrying….where are their armies?
Senator Augustus Verginius,
I partly agree with your proposed tactics, strike and take several key cities and sack Carthago…..however, I would perhaps only hold Utica, Thapsus and Hippo Regius until the situation calls for our forces to withdraw. Withdraw to Hadrumentum perhaps.
Obviously ONLY if the Carthenaginians manage to mobilise fully against us. In that situation I would think it prudent for the Consul to withdraw to a more concentrated area and perhaps even into the Walled City.
Senator Cornelius Saturninus,
On your second point, this is why I was alarmed about the mobilisation of the Consular army to the West rather than the East. We NEED more men in the East more desperately than the West.
My own tactical analysis indicates that we require FOUR Legions in the East PLUS an occupying force in Byzantion – Two legions to the North East to secure our frontier with Thrace and two MOBILE legions to strike effectively against the Selucids, these can be re-enforced from Byzantion when required, hence the requirement of the occupying force.
We could make do with three IF the Thracians remain coo-coo’d and unwilling to venture against us in force.
Senator Flavius Pacuvius,
Agreed; we have an experienced spy in the area and we need more information. Whilst the garrisons appear small I am particularly worried as to the were-abouts of the vast number of Carthenginian forces and how long it would take them to respond to an invasion.
It will take TWO seasons as a minimum to storm a walled City. IF we land TWO Consular armies right next to Carthago and Hadrumentum it will be two seasons until we can take them and be safe behind their walls.
Are the Carthage armies more than two seasons march away?
If we propose to take the other cities which are unwalled we will require even more time before the enemy reacts.
This is a dangerous game but if we only take those two main cities I would consider such an expedition a success.
Senator Marcellus Aemilius,
On your comparison to Gaul; I agree with you also, though I do not believe the Consul considers a time that we will be able to withdraw our forces from Afrika. Senators, understand this that IF this invasion goes ahead we will have opened a new front AND those forces we send will NOT be returning for many, many years. It is also quite possible that should we move to Lepcis Magna we will further encounter the Egyptians!
Consider this carefully and understand the FULL commitment we are making in the long term.
Senator Augustus Verginius,
And finally, I believe that we do need a full TWO Consular armies to perform this task BUT I also believe what has been proposed is too much.
A Consular army is already embarked…..will they remain in danger, in their ships, awaiting the 2nd Consular army?
I firmly believe that we DO need two forces to strike at Carthage however, those two forces can be smaller IF they are placed correctly.
If we can land in or near the bay of Carthago two forces can strike and take both Carthago and Hadrumentum in Two seasons. Then I believe the situation should be re-assessed.
We can plan now to take more settlements, utterly cripple the Carthenginians BUT to plan too far is inherently wrong Sir!
We need, nay must, strike at Carthage and strike hard but we must also consider that their great forces will not stand by whilst we move further. A quick strike against their two greatest cities is possible to work as they appear lightly defended.
Enslave their peoples and pillage their craven temples for money but then watch to the East for their Armies. To plan further is folly indeed for could a even a Consular army withstand 10,000 Carthenginian warriors striking in a co-ordinated manner against one of these cities……..
….even if they do not manage to mobilise and we take one or two of the other cities? These lesser cities are unwalled and again I say that we will not be able and should not be prepared to bleed our armies to defend them.
So, I support this venture only IF the goals are not set beyond the first two seasons. I support an invasion of Afrika and the taking of Carthago AND Hadrumentum but nothing more until we know what our enemy will do next.
All this is also not considering what Carthage’s Navy will do! They can blockade our forces into Afrika or even sink our fleets and utterly trap our armies.
I do not know, whilst I support this venture all I can see is danger at every turn and our best hope is a swift and hard strike and well made preparations to withdraw from Afrika completely should the situation warrant it.
I must apologise for the long speech but much is to be considered and there is much danger for our Republic.
Senator Servius Aemilius is not attending the current proceedings, as he is away on campaign and cannot be reached, however, he has left his freeman clerk here to deal with matters of his estate and...a few other duties too.
Servius's Freeman Clerk - Senator Coruncanius, I'm not quite sure what it is you're asking. First, you said you were "questioning" the consuls proposal to send the consular force in Rome to Afrika...this emplies that you don't agree with it. Then you go on to say that my master has told you sending the consular army abroad would be the death knell of rome, but also ask "isn't Carthage abroad?" Now, this confuses me...It seems that you, while first questioning the reasoning behind a proposal to attack Carthage with the consular army, then turn around and question the reasoning for not doing so. The freeman mumbles something about Coruncanii fools. Eh...let me put this simply for you.
My master's direct feelings on the matter, as he has expressed them to me, is that the Consular army should be used to defend the west. Yes, Reinforcements in the east are in dire need. BUT, our current information tells us three things. 1 - Carthage has already landed consular sized armies on Sardinia and Malta. 2 - There are six Carthaginian armies of the same size, and one of half this size, within a seasons march of the city of Carthage itself. Possibly more on the other side of the mountains, but our spy near Carthage hasn't moved in quite some time, and is unable to determine the Carthaginian strength beyond the armies I have mentioned, as they passed through the province he currently resides in only one, maybe two seasons ago. 3 - No matter who commands it, no matter who thinks they are wise and capable enough to do so. There is no man amongst this senate that could fight, and win, a battle against six and half battle hardened Carthigian armies. Thinking you could outmaneouver them would be foolish. They will surround our armies, two, maybe three of theirs against our one. Any expedition to the heartlands of Carthage would be failed, futile, and place the western half of the Republic at the mercy of Carthage. In this way, we would be sitting in Rome, waiting for Carthage to land its armies on our shores in two, maybe three seasons. It would be the death knell of Rome.
I am unaware of exactly what plans my master has set out to do, as, quite clearly, he is on campaign and cannot be reached. But until his return, perhaps three, four seasons from now, perhaps 3 or four years from now, I cannot say. I will speak in these proceedings in his stead, and relay any information I receive from him to the senate.
It is obvious that my many answers have confused. I was questioning what exactly your master, Senator Servius Aemilius wanted to do with this situation as it wasn’t clear to me that he was definitively against an invasion of Carthage.
You have made it quite clear that he is at this time. However, I do not like the thought of an unused Consul army, it is a waste of coin and manpower. Our armies must earn there keep.
Perhaps your master would propose a campaign with the new Consul army to expel those Carthaginian forces who have landed in Sardinia and Malta? Certainly a noble plan in the short term, one that does not earn us any coin or slaves but there is nothing inherently “wrong” with such a proposal.
As for my questioning of the Consul, I was mainly questioning the way he unilaterally has started this undertaking, not that the undertaking itself is questionable…..only the methods of its inception.
Six and a Half full armies you say? Well, in view of that a direct strike at Carthago and the surrounding area does indeed seem folly…..I will have to visit a physician, it seems I cannot see them on the maps provided earlier.
Perhaps the Consul proposes a Raid on Lepcis Magna? It would not bring much profit and would perhaps prompt a heavy response from Carthage herself.
So, to clarify. IF, the forces built up against us in Carthage are of this magnitude I cannot see a venture, even with TWO Consular armies, succeeding. Such an undertaking would require two Consular armies AND two legions in support. We are certainly NOT at a juncture where we can afford such a thing.
Now then, where does that leave the Republic and, indeed, my own position? It leaves us with a Consul army in Ships awaiting deployment somewhere…..they say Afrika……I, now, hope this is untrue!
Using the new Consular army to expel the Carthaginians from our Islands perhaps? Does not a Consular army appear “excessive” for this purpose?
So, this leads me to again believe that the best place for a Consular army is the East! However, I will accept that we also need defence in the West and for our homes to which a force of Two Legions will be sufficient and once they are raised the new Consular army can move to the East and expel the Selucids.
To be honest, I await the Consuls comments on what he is actually proposing here as now I am confused.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-05-2006, 15:29
Honoured conscript fathers,
There are reports of Phoenician spies in our capital, so hence the departure of my grandson Servius Aemilius and his legion, backed up up by some extra phalanx cohorts, was kept a secret. I urge you to be very careful of your words in the coming days, as this entire operation depends on suprise.
He is to land at Lepcis Magna and raid it for slaves, but we will not abandon the settlement. Tribune Servius Aemilius will continue to make a nuisance of himself in the region, hopefully drawing a part of the Cartheginian army towards his remote position. He will be relatively safe from the east as the Ptolemic empire is not able to cross the Sahara by land. This will clear some of the opposition for the Consular Army, which will be ready to ship in the first season of the next consul's term (2 seasons from now). It is my recommendation that the next consul invades the Cartheginian heartland with the Consular Army, beginning with the capture of their capital. The Cartheginians have massive forces at their disposal. The risk of total defeat of our forces during this operation will be very high. Our best hope is that the massive amount of forces west of Utica is used by the Cartheginians to recapture their lost colonies in Spain. With the Cartheginian fleet destroyed, the danger of invasion is lessened, but not gone. The islands are of minor strategic importance, I am ignoring them for now.
There have been many requests for legions send here and there, by senators who are not aware of our desperate straits. It has cost me incredible efforts just to keep our current legions up to strength, with our massive losses.
I myself am now leading a conglemoration of battered troops and merceneries, which is having to do the impossible task of taking over the work of two regular legions in guarding the Danube river.
In the east, we have three legions trying to do the work of five in guarding our northern and eastern border. In order to do this, we are running massive risks. Our only hope is that the Bosporus naval blockade, which will hopefully start working soon (suggestions on why this is not working are welcome !) will free our troops from guarding the Eastern border.
In the west, two legions are threathened by the massive forces of the Iberians, who have just moved a Consular sized force smack into the middle of our province. I fear war will break out next season.
For the Cartheginian operation, no more troops can be spared than the Consular Army and the praetorian legion already assigned to it.
To answer all the desperate pleas for more troops, I have exactly one (1) praetorian legion to send from Roma. I consider the greatest danger the Iberian threat at the moment, and will send out this legion to bring the army of Augustus Verginius near Gergovia up to Consular Army strength.
EDIT:
Should the next consul decide to act otherwise, there are ships enough gathered to evacuate Servius Aemlius and his troops and to transport the Consular Army to a location of his choosing.
Consul,
You send your Grandson into peril. If you do this willingly then I cannot argue against it.
Suffice to say that we are like the lone farmer fighting the ever encroaching forest fires….frantically scrambling from one point to the next trying to beat out the flames as each new spark ignites another crop….
I was not aware that Iberia had now entered the equation and I feel greatly depressed about this. Soon it will be time for our greatest heroes to emerge! Out numbered and desperate it will only be through our commander’s military genius that we will prevail.
I am sorry to say that all you can do now, Consul, is try to beat out those fires and glowing embers and do your best for the Republic in this dire time.
I am sure the Senate is behind you in these last few months and pray that we can turn this evil tide and return to the profitable times that signalled the start of your Consulship.
A messenger arrives with a scroll from Augustus Verginius.
Senators, I have recently received word that a large Iberian army has crossed our frontier and is currently encamped on Roman soil. I wish to assure you that I am closely monitoring this force and will engage it immediately if its intentions prove to be hostile. However, this show of aggression on what is our only peaceful border has the potential to impact many events in the future. I have recently spoken out in favor of a strong attack on Carthage. I am not withdrawing my support for such a plan, but I believe that it would be imprudent of me to continue discussions when the course of events on the Gallic frontier remains uncertain.
As such, please allow me some time to ponder the current situation and discuss it with my own advisors. I shall return to state my position on our future course of action once the current Consulship has finally run its term. In the meantime, please consider all of my previous statements regarding Carthage in stasis. I neither reject them nor embrace them at this moment.
From the Gallic border,
Augustus Verginius
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The Senate is now open for the submission of motions and of manifestoes for candidates for the post of First Consul. The deadline for motions to be seconded and candidates to identify themseleves is Saturday 8pm UK. There will then be a 24 hour period of voting.
Hmmm…..a difficult time to be proposing any specific Motions however I shall start with the following:
Motion #11.00:
The Senate Instructs the seaborne invasion of North Afrika with at least two Consular sized armies.
Motion #11.01:
The Senate instructs that the invasion of North Afrika have the targets of Carthago and Hadrumentum as a minimum. The Senate will not instruct further due to the issue of Tactical Variance.
Motion #11.02:
The Senate calls for the positioning of a Legion or other assembled force to “face off” against the Iberian incursion – this is not authorisation to initiate hostile activity but to show Iberia how seriously we take such unwarranted actions and allow them the chance to withdraw with honour to their own lands.
Motion #11.03:
The Senate Instructs, when funds permit, the construction of and manning of fortifications to prevent incursions by the Iberians.
Motion #11.04:
Byzantion is to be held against all odds and to the last man.
Senators, I am well aware that my proposed motion #11.04 is very abrasive but I strongly feel that if we are to mount any effective counterstrikes against the Selucids the key to such a venture is the retention of Byzantion.
However, I will not be offended should my last motion find no support.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 16:42
Conscript fathers,
It is with relief that I lay down my rod of office, which has turned out to be deceptively heavy. I have done my best to lead the Republic to greatness, but I am not greatly pleased with my results.
My term has seen the death of two of our consuls, my friends Amulius Coruncanius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1212245&postcount=5) and Publius Pansa (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1154670&postcount=15) (who still awaits transfer to the Mausoleum). Tribune Gaius Rutilius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1226985&postcount=8) and the young Herennius Genucius (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1212246&postcount=6) also found their doom. I will first present you with a summary of our current situation, to get a good view of our situation it is best to read my last report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1235267&postcount=28).
Our main military forces at present :
The Legio I Italia Victrix, under the command of tribune Cornelius Saturnius, is stationed in Tylis.
The banner of the Legio II Sabina Quintia is being carried by the commander-to-be of the Consular Army, tribune Marcellus Aemilius.
The Legio III Sicilia Aemilia, under the command of tribune Flavius Pacuvius, is stationed in a fort next to Comata.
The Legio IV Gallica Firma banner is currently in the temple of Mars in Roma.
The Legio V Alaudae is currently carried by legate Numerius Aureolius in Byzantium. The actual legion is stationed outside the city in a fort.
The banner of the Legio VI Phoenix is currently carried by Gnaeus Hordeonius, a tribune in the Field Army II.
The Consular Army, under the temporary command of tribune Manius Coruncanius, is about to enter Sicily.
The Field Army I, under the command of praetor Tiberius Coruncanius, is on the march near Maronia.
The Field Army II, under the command of praetor Lucius Aemilius, is standing outside the town of Oduba.
The German Legion, under the command of tribune Quintus Libo, is on the march near Viberi.
The Cispine Gaul Legion, under the command of tribune Quintus Naevius, is stationed in a fort near Jenuensis.
The Gaul Narbonensis Legion, under the command of legate Augustus Verginius, is stationed in a fort near Gergovia.
The Italian Legion, under the command of legate Valerius Paullus, is on the march near Roma.
The Cartheginian Legion, under the command of tribune Servius Aemilius, is about to land in Africa.
I have no correct estimates of our financial revenue. At the last report, our income had dropped by well over 10.000 denarii to a measly 14.000 denarii. This immense setback is caused by the loss of trade with the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic empire.
A complete list of all the battle statistics can be found here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1208544&postcount=23). The summary :
Factions destroyed :
- Illyria
- The kingdom of Macedon
- Gaul
- The Greek Cities
Our total losses during my term :
Total enemy casualties : 23780 men
Total Roman casualties : 5896 men
Average kill ratio : 4.0 - 1
Total enemy ships sunk : 23 ships
Total Roman ships sunk : 4 ships
We have conquered 18 provinces, namely Chalkida, Salona, Delmatia, Kydonia, Hyrapytna, Bylazora, Ratiaria, Philipii, Comata, Gergovia, Luvavum, Debeltos, Oduba, Tylis, Byzantium, Nicomedia, Prusa and Viberi.
We want to get rid of Nicomedia, Prusa and Viberi.
We have conquered and lost Maronia.
We have lost Melite.
In spite of my warnings during midterm, we have become involved in war with the great empires of the East, the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empire. We cannot hope to win this war in the long term and I encourage the next consul to keep up attempts to block the Bosporus with fleets (I'm pretty sure it can work, we just need several 3-ship fleets). The loss of trade has been a total disaster for the Republic, almost halving our total revenue.
Hence I propose
Motion 11.5 : We will attempt to set up a naval blockade in the Bosporus and no further incursions into Asia Minor are allowed this term (this does not include Rhodes).
My advice is to invade the Republic of Carthage in a war of conquest. It is the only place we can fight our enemies and make a profit. If we do not, we will go broke in the short term. We might be able to pay our armies, but we will not be able to develop our cities.
Aside from the war of conquest on Carthage, I encourage the next consul to launch a naval expedition to Rhodes, as the capture of Rhodes would do much to improve our disastrous financial situation (as it has the Colossus wonder).
Hence I propose
Motion 11.6 : We will attempt an amphibious invasion of Rhodes during this term.
There are several cities that are screaming for developement. Aside from the cities in Greece, Syracuse is the very worst case. I encourage the next consul to build an aquaduct there as soon as the forum is finished.
My grandson, Servius, has suggested to me that we extend the roman citizenship to our Italian allies. I have praised our Italian allies many times for their excellent performance in battle, and the great sacrifices they were willing to make for the Republic. On the other hand, the citizenship is not something we can give away lightly. The very fabric of our society rests on a balance between citizen, freemen and slaves in the population, just as the balance in our politics depends on the balance between Patricians and Plebejians.
The honour and priveliges of becoming a Roman citizen are something that must remain a prize that is attainable in theory, but in practice, almost, but not quite, out of reach of the common freeman.
If the citizenship becomes too widespread its value will deflate and our society will become unstable. On the other hand, our Republic has grown so large that an extension of the citizenship to some of our Latin allies seems a wise decision. The citizenship has become too exclusive, the other wrong side of the balance. I think if we offer citizenship to Ancona and Capua we will bring the balance back to its perfect ratio.
Hence, I will propose
Motion 11.7 : We will extend citizenship (i.e. build citizenship building) to the cities of Capua and Ancona during this consul's term.
I further propose the following motions :
Motion 11.8 : We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia
Motion 11.9 : We will try to return Viberi to our allies, the Germans, during this consul's term.
Motion 11.10 : We will not try to hold on to Nicomedia and Prusa
Motion 11.11 : We will repopulate our Italian cities using enslavement and governors. Any conquered city with a population over 4000 souls is to be enslaved after making sure that only the cities that are depopulated (like Corfinium) have governors inside them.
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by Iberia).
Further I propose this consular amendment as I am a bit tired with fighting everyone :
Constitutional Amendment 11.A : We will organize a poll on changing the difficulty settings of the game to M/VH, M/H. M/M, H/VH, H/H or H/M. The one with the most votes, not 2/3 majority, or even a majority, will become the new setting. Only lower house senate member votes on the poll are valid and influence is not a factor in this poll. This amendment itself does require a 2/3 majority of senate votes to pass.
I also propose this amendment in view of the recent discussions in the senate :
Constitutional Amendment 11.B : If there are conflicting motions, the one with the most votes in favour of them is the motion that supersedes the other. At the moment it is the order in which votes have been proposed. This amendment itself requires 2/3 of the votes to pass, and if it passes will be in effect over the motions voted on this session and into the future.
Lastly, if the esteemed senator Augustus Verginius decided to run for the office of consul, he has my full backing. His previous reign as consul has proved very succesfull and he is the only senate member, besides myself, who saw the need for improving our economy even so long ago. Our nation has made great strides in that direction during his term and I have great faith he will help us recover from our dramatic setbacks in the coming years. He is also an excellent strategist and his war of manouver in Gaul was a masterpiece.
EDIT : Motion 11.12 and Constitutional Amendment 11.A have been updated.
EDIT : The Legio IV Gallica has been given its correct name, the Legio IV Gallica Firma.
EDIT : Whoops, forgot Gaius Rutilius, who also perished.
EDIT : Motion 11.5 is retracted, as a naval blockade does not work.
EDIT : Motion 11.9 is retracted, as when Viberi rebels it becomes a rebel town and that will provide a better protection for us than if the Germans get it.
SENATE SPEAKER: I would ask Senator Manius Coruncanius to review his use of the word "authorise" in his motions. It should be recalled that all prior motions have now lapsed with the change in first Consul, hence strictly speaking motions 11.00, 11.02 and 11.03 seem redundant: the new First Consul will already have the power to authorise the actions mentioned. Perhaps the Senator wishes to use a stronger term - e.g. "instructs" or "calls for"?
OOC: I am strongly against changing the difficulty level (Constitutional Ammendment 11A). I think it is important not to pass that motion, because it will then very easily switch the difficulty level from what it presently is (there are only a handful of lower house members and on the voting rules in the ammendment, if, say, 3 want it to X, it will be switched to X).
There are several reasons why I don't want to change the difficulty level:
Firstly, it is not clear we can do it - RTW was not designed to have the difficulty level switched within a campaign and some of the posts in RTR PE forums at TWcentre report that the hack to do so messes up the dates. I've had enough of a fright with the rebellion CTDs and don't want to do anything that will mess up this now 100+ turn PBM.
Secondly, it is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. We are already at war with virtually everyone. Adding Iberia or Germany to the list won't change much. And I am not convinced changing the campaign difficulty level will keep them significantly more peaceful than they are going to be, or magically induce the others to be our friends again.
Thirdly, I actually think Roman campaigns are a lot more fun when you are at war with everyone. It's a very strong faction and needs to be overstretched to be challenged. If we could just salami slice one faction at a time, it would be trivial. The "total war" aspect means that this PBM seems to actually have gotten harder, first with FLYdude's second half of his term and then with the last First Consul. This is a good thing, IMO. Our objectives for the campaign include taking down Seleucia, Egypt, Carthage & Thrace. Well, now we have a good reason to. Iberia is on the list too.
Fourthly, DDW may be tired of fighting everyone but a lot of us in the Lower House are itching to have battles. If he is talking from a First Consul point of view only, I can understand the frustration but then again maybe other First Consuls would not mind managing a "total war" situation.
Fifthly, on the battle difficulty, the battles are quite hard enough already, given how stretched our forces are. A Praetorian Roman army against a Consular Successor one is not a push over, as our Co-Consul has proven twice. Quite frankly, I am worried for Numerius holding Byzantion with what he's got. If he is not reinforced, sooner or later, he's going down. If he has to face the Seleucids with a +4 attack, +4 morale or whatever hard is, I'm going to be seriously depressed.
Sixthly, I've always like Medium battles because I like the historical match-ups. Playing a realism mod and then skewing the combat to be unrealistic has never struck me as very intuitive.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 17:35
OOC : I understand your feelings, econ21, and may even be swayed by them. However, it seems like a good idea to have this issue debated one and for all. Based on the arguments presented I will either retract my amendment sunday or let it stand.
Suffice to say, I've one played a VH/VH campaign to the finish, and I wasn't all that pleased with the gameplay. I really miss having allies to fight alongside with (really the most fun aspect of RTW in my opinion) and the endless armies got really tiresome after a while. I prefer fewer, but harder fights.
EDIT : I just realised I won't be able to retract this amendment on time on sunday. If no other senator wants to take over this amendment before sunday 6PM, it can be considered withdrawn.
GeneralHankerchief
09-06-2006, 17:47
I second all motions currently proposed so far (up to 11.12) and the Constitutional Amendment 11.B. I do not second 11.A.
However, let it be said that if the wording of 11.01 changes I may withdraw my support. If there are no immediate reinforcements coming to Afrika then I suggest that my legion take Hadrumentum and hold it indefinitely, waiting for reinforcements to form before continuing the expedition. This is not a motion.
Dutch_guy
09-06-2006, 18:07
I am not in favor of Constitutional Amendment 11.A, it seems fine as it is.
I am, on the other hand, in agreement concerning the other motions. Especially motion 11.8 - this seems very wise, especially seeing War with Iberia is only moments away.
Motion 11.8 : We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia
I however, do not quite understand why we should return Viberi to our allies. If a war might break out between our German ''Allies'' we'd have to re conquer the settlement and lose countless lives doing so. I just don't see what we have to gain by such an action.
Motion 11.9 : We will try to return Viberi to our allies, the Germans, during this consul's term.
:balloon2:
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 18:24
I however, do not quite understand why we should return Viberi to our allies.
As long as the Germans are at war with Iberia, Iberia might not attack us. However, the Germans are losing and need to be strengthened to be able to continue this war.
Realizing I made an error, I am rephrasing
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by Iberia).
StoneCold
09-06-2006, 18:29
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans.
I do not understand the purpose of this motion with regards to Motion 11.08. Why are we trying to expend Roman Blood so as to give the land they bought with their bloods to our allies when we have more pressing agenda like the selucids and carthagians on our hand? I believe that as with Motion 11.08, we should be on the defensive, with the securing of the Danube natural border and stay there, only doing spoiling attacks at points where threats materialize, the Thracians are weaken as it is and we should not shed any more blood there unless there are specific gains or objectives to be achieved.
Giving lands to our allies is not one of them, aiding them in the defense of their homeland I can understand.
Edit: was posting this while DDW was posting the above reply.
So what does this mean for Motion 11.12 in the event of an attack by Germans on Vicus Goth? Do we go and aid our allies, aka. be near the area to be requested to join in the attack thus breaking the peace with the Iberians? Please clarify.
Dutch_guy
09-06-2006, 18:32
As long as the Germans are at war with Iberia, Iberia might not attack us. However, the Germans are losing and need to be strengthened to be able to continue this war.
Realizing I made an error, I am rephrasing
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by Iberia).
Well as noble as your intentions may be, I don't think that giving them a razed* city would actually help them hold out against the Iberian onslaught. So keeping that in mind, I do quite understand why the Germans may not wish the extra burden of an extra city. Of course the most noble thing to do is aid them in their war, but seeing our current state of diplomacy with the known world that may not be the best thing to do at the moment.
*
I planned to give the town [Viberi] to our allies, the Germans, but they do not want it. Annoyed, I plunder everything except the market
:balloon2:
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 18:52
So what does this mean for Motion 11.12 in the event of an attack by Germans on Vicus Goth? Do we go and aid our allies, aka. be near the area to be requested to join in the attack thus breaking the peace with the Iberians? Please clarify.
Let me be very precise. A war with Iberia is no be avoided at all costs. So that's a definite no-no. I mean if Iberia loses Vicus Goth to rebels we could go and conquer it for them.
As to the razing of Viberi, I am really tired of the idiotic diplomacy AI. If the Germans don't want it the settlement can rebel. If we are unlucky by the way, and it rebels to the Germans, we'll be at war with them. As this is not a default German settlement I don't think that will happen.
Mount Suribachi
09-06-2006, 18:59
Motion #11.00:
The Senate authorises the seaborne invasion of North Afrika with at least two Consular sized armies.
I believe Senate authorisation is not required for this operation - we are already at war with Carthage, the Consul may do as he pleases in this regard, unless the Senate specifically tells him otherwise.
Motion #11.02:
The Senate authorises the positioning of a Legion or other assembled force to “face off” against the Iberian incursion – this is not authorisation to initiate hostile activity but to show Iberia how seriously we take such unwarranted actions and allow them the chance to withdraw with honour to their own lands.
I believe there are already 2 legion sized forces in our Gallic provinces.
Regarding Viberi and the other Thracian provinces, I have this to say. It was agreed some time ago to use the Danube as a natural border - a wise and sound strategy. However, our enemy the Thracians remain unconquered and are unlikely to ever agree to a ceasefire. The only way we shall have peace on our northern border is by eliminating the Thracians altogether. This shall have 3 benefits, all positive.
1) It removes one of our many enemies, and frees us from fighting endless stacks of Thracians season after season. We may defeat them 95% of the time, but each battle will wear down our armies and we are not in a position to win a war of attrition.
2) Our northern border is now protected by an ALLY!! Oh praise the Gods and give thanks to consul Lucius Aemilius for negotiating an alliance with Germania. And having an ally bordering us is an enormous advantage for one simple reason - Trade!! We need every denarii we can get, and our merchants will be able to freely ply their wares with the Germans once we have eliminated Thrace.
3) It frees up our troops. Currently we have several legions worth of troops along the Danube, guarding against Thracian incursions. If it was Germania directly to our north (who I believe we have a military access agreement with), then we could leave the river crossings unguarded and leave just one legion there as a reserve. The legions released could then be sent east, west or south at the Consuls discretion.
Finally, your point about having to reconquer any cities we give to the Germans is misguided. I hope we never go to war with those fearsome barbarians, but maybe we will, if they are foolish enough to attack us at some time in the future. We must plan for the here and now. We need every piece of coin, every soldier, every ally we can right now. Our situation is desperate. Let us take advantage of our ally whilst we can. Furthermore, those towns are small and poorly developed. It will take decades before they are cities of any worth. Let us worry about having to retake cities we have gifted to Germania, if and when it comes to that.
With all this in mind I ask that Lucius Aemilius re-word & merge Motions 11.9 and 11.12 to read
Motion 11.9 - The Germanic legion under Quintus Libo shall conquer and enslave the remaining Thracian settlements of Viberi, Vicus Marcomannii, Campus Lazyges and Sarmisegetusa. These shall then be offered individually, or in a package to our allies the Germans. The consul is authorised to offer financial sweeteners to Germania to induce them to accept
Finally, I wish to second Motions 11.1, 11.5, 11.6, 11.7, 11.8, 11.10
OOC: can we discuss the difficulty levels in the OOC thread?
I second Motions 11.5 and 11.6. The others I will have to give more thought.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 20:28
Regarding Viberi and the other Thracian provinces, I have this to say. It was agreed some time ago to use the Danube as a natural border - a wise and sound strategy. However, our enemy the Thracians remain unconquered and are unlikely to ever agree to a ceasefire. The only way we shall have peace on our northern border is by eliminating the Thracians altogether.
[snip]
With all this in mind I ask that Lucius Aemilius re-word & merge Motions 11.9 and 11.12 to read
Motion 11.9 - The Germanic legion under Quintus Libo shall conquer and enslave the remaining Thracian settlements of Viberi, Vicus Marcomannii, Campus Lazyges and Sarmisegetusa. These shall then be offered individually, or in a package to our allies the Germans. The consul is authorised to offer financial sweeteners to Germania to induce them to accept
These are all valid reasons, but I prefer to make Germania stronger in the direction of Iberia, instead of in our direction. I do not want to tempt our allies into attacking us. An alternative might be conquering Thrace for ourselves, but I rather have Thrace for a neighbour behind an easily defended border, than the Sarmatians, with their fearsome horse armies. Therefore I will not alter my motion. You are of course free to propose a motion yourself.
I second motions 11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 11.4. 11.5, 11.6, 11.9, 11.11, 11.12
In regards to motion 11.7, I do not think our treasury can afford citizenship buildings in those settlements at this time. I would like to grant them this gift, but for now it should be put on hold.
I second Ammendment 11.B
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 20:49
OOC: I am strongly against changing the difficulty level (Constitutional Ammendment 11A). I think it is important not to pass that motion, because it will then very easily switch the difficulty level from what it presently is (there are only a handful of lower house members and on the voting rules in the ammendment, if, say, 3 want it to X, it will be switched to X).
Which is of course my intent. Furthermore, the only players with a good insight in how hard the battles and the opposition are now are the lower house senators.
There are several reasons why I don't want to change the difficulty level:
Firstly, it is not clear we can do it - RTW was not designed to have the difficulty level switched within a campaign and some of the posts in RTR PE forums at TWcentre report that the hack to do so messes up the dates. I've had enough of a fright with the rebellion CTDs and don't want to do anything that will mess up this now 100+ turn PBM.
We should be able to do it easily using RomeSage. I am not aware of any relation between dates and difficulty or any problems. You were ready enough to 'force peace' on Carthage last term by changing the difficulty.
Secondly, it is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. We are already at war with virtually everyone. Adding Iberia or Germany to the list won't change much. And I am not convinced changing the campaign difficulty level will keep them significantly more peaceful than they are going to be, or magically induce the others to be our friends again.
Won't change much ? 10.000 Iberians knocking on our front door ? I beg to differ. At least we can try to make peace with some of our neighbours. I think Thrace is ready to accept peace, especially if we destroy all her armies. The Ptolemaic empire is also ready for peace, and the trade benefits alone would be an extremely profitable benefit (better take Rhodes first of course). Ditto for the Seleucid empire, once we kick them back to Asia Minor.
Thirdly, I actually think Roman campaigns are a lot more fun when you are at war with everyone. It's a very strong faction and needs to be overstretched to be challenged. If we could just salami slice one faction at a time, it would be trivial. The "total war" aspect means that this PBM seems to actually have gotten harder, first with FLYdude's second half of his term and then with the last First Consul. This is a good thing, IMO. Our objectives for the campaign include taking down Seleucia, Egypt, Carthage & Thrace. Well, now we have a good reason to. Iberia is on the list too.
We have no chance whatsoever of achieving these objectives if we have to fight everyone at once. We are already broke.
Fourthly, DDW may be tired of fighting everyone but a lot of us in the Lower House are itching to have battles. If he is talking from a First Consul point of view only, I can understand the frustration but then again maybe other First Consuls would not mind managing a "total war" situation.
This is of course a personal preference. But I wonder how long the consuls will enjoy themselves if they can't build anything due to lack of funds. The enemy factions are so large now that they can raise vast armies without the bonus 10.000 they are getting now. At least this will stop them from buying up all the mercenaries all the time. I really doubt that we will have less battles if we decrease the campaign difficulty.
Fifthly, on the battle difficulty, the battles are quite hard enough already, given how stretched our forces are. A Praetorian Roman army against a Consular Successor one is not a push over, as our Co-Consul has proven twice. Quite frankly, I am worried for Numerius holding Byzantion with what he's got. If he is not reinforced, sooner or later, he's going down. If he has to face the Seleucids with a +4 attack, +4 morale or whatever hard is, I'm going to be seriously depressed.
You will be defeated anyway if you have to face endless full stacks. The battles are not really all that much harder. I am only for upping the battle difficulty to balance the loss of infinite money for the AI.
Sixthly, I've always like Medium battles because I like the historical match-ups. Playing a realism mod and then skewing the combat to be unrealistic has never struck me as very intuitive.
I feel we should balance the 'not so brilliant' AI by giving him better troops. I like a good challenge. However, the battle difficulty is not my major issue, I can live with battles on medium. But this campaign difficulty is my major issue.
With this post, let's shift the discussion on this amendment to the OOC-thread
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I must start by expressing my respect and gratitude to the First Consul. He, and his Co-Consuls, have led us in an exemplary fashion throughout the last five difficult years. I fear he is far too reserved about his achievements - to have conquered 18 settlements surely rivals anything done by his predecessors.
All that said, however, I find I am almost completely in disagreement with the motions he proposes to constrain and direct his successor. My basic stance is for minimal legislation - to leave the First Consuls free to respond to events and to make the hard decisions, based on careful thought and study, that are often not best made by the Senate at a distance and only in 2 and a half year intervals. My instinct, therefore, is to vote "No!" to all motions unless they are utterly necessary and self-evident (such as giving chirurgeons to front line armies, ** cough **).
Now on the substance of the motions available so far. Many appear unnecessary and others self-evidently wrong. Perhaps the most egregious is motion 11.5 calling for a sea blockade of the Bosphorus and making illegal any move across the straits. Senators, we have no evidence that a sea blockade would prevent the Seleucids crossing the straits - in fact, we have direct experience that it does not. Furthermore, it seems curious that the First Consul should seek to make illegal raids that he conducted in the last two seasons in office that secured the Republic nearly 20,000 gold and 10,000 slaves, at minimal cost in Roman blood. It is also strange that the First Consul praises the brilliance of ex-First Consul's great raid through a Gaul but seeks to prohibit a similar potential exercise through Seleucid held Asia Minor.
Senators, I do not propose that we push into Asia in a major offensive at this time. I agree that Carthage is a more tempting target - it is weaker and its lands, more self-contained so it would require less of a garrison. However, the First Consul is surely wrong to say that we can never defeat Seleucia and Egypt. It will not be easy and it is not the task for the next First Consul, but it is our destiny. And if we take settlements at the rate the First Consul has done, I suspect it will be accomplished within my life time. But that is the long term. In the short term, Seleucia will surely keep attacking us without respite and indefinitely until she is destroyed. Anything we can to weaken her - whether it is raids, pursuits across the straits, etc - should not be ruled out of hand. We would be forcing ourselves to fight with one hand behind our backs.
On motion 11.6, I confess I can see no point in an expedition to Rhodes. Surely Melite has taught us that it is hard to defend small islands? Indeed, the First Consul appears to have abandoned Melite - the Consular army aimed at Lepcis Magna could have liberated it en route - and was unwilling to even try to defend Sardinia. If Rhodes is to be raided, that is another matter but a distinctly low priority one in view of the strength of Seleucid armies around Maronia and beyond.
Motion 11.8, foreswearing further conquests in Europe appears too restrictive. What if Iberia attacks us? Should we just stand passive? The First Consul himself was certainly not passive with Greece, Macedon, Thrace and Egypt. At least put in a clause negating the motion in such an event. Are we not to take Anchlaus and close the last hole in our Danube frontier?
Motion 11.12, taking further Thracian cities and surrendering them to Germany, appears folly. Senators, I have been personally blamed for the wars with Seleucia and Egypt. I have laid before you an alternative hypothesis to explain these wars: whoever we share a land border with, will ultimately attack us. So it was with Thrace, Illyria, Macedon, Egypt and Seleucia. The only exception so far is Iberia, which we have only relatively recently bordered. Perhaps she has held off because our garrisons in the border provinces have been strong, I do not know. But if I am right, the corollary of my hypothesis is this: that, where possible, land borders with neutral powers should be avoided. It is for this reason, I have been quietly sceptical of the Viberi expediton, which will likely give us a land border with the Germans, and why I believe we should not take the last Thracian settlements in order to avoid contact with the Sarmatians. Where we wish to avoid war with powers such as Germany and Sarmatia, I believe it would be better to leave a weakened Thrace as a buffer state - much as we left two Gallic settlements between us and Iberia for so long.
I would also like to speak briefly about motion 11.4 - holding Byzantium at at all costs. I fear the motion currently seems little more than posturing. I believe serious thought should be given as to how we can best defend the straits. On the Maronia end, I believe at least a full Consular army will be required. The Seleucids are capable of sending multiple Consular-sized armies across the straits and a Praetorian army would be overwhelmed. Byzantion, unlike Maronia, has walls so has a season's grace. However, I do not believe walls provide any further advantage against the Seleucids, given that their fearsome hypaspists would likely be able to seize walls guarded even by Roman heavy infantry. Personally, I would prefer to meet the Seleucids at Byzantion in the field, where we will have more freedom to outmanouvre them, exhaust them and use our cavalry. But given the size of the Seleucid armies and the poor communications between Maronia and Byzantion, this could well require a second Consular sized army.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-06-2006, 22:01
Conscript fathers,
I am gratified by the praise of Numerius Auriolus, however my goal was internal development, not conquest. I would have been a lot more pleased if we had not conquered Eastern Greece, and I have only realised half of what I wanted to accomplish economically. It is nice to have a great nation, but it would be a lot nicer if the cities in it were not rebellious low tax plague pits.
Concerning motion 11.5, I still think a naval blockade is possible. I think the fleets should just be a certain size, i.e. 3 ships seems to work. Due to the width of the land bridges at least 5 fleets will be needed, three for Maronia and two for Byzantium. Why else is there a 'no travel' zone around the fleet of three ships near Maronia ?
Concerning motion 11.6, taking Rhodes will probably add 50% to our revenue due to the Colossus wonder. Considering our current disastrous financial situation, this seems like a smart thing to do.
Concerning motion 11.8, we are already very overstretched and cannot guard what we have. Conquering even more land will make this problem even worse. Still, a looting and raiding campaign I have no problems with (OOC : But what about the rebellion problems ?)
OOC : Concerning motion 11.12, we would not have the problem of guaranteed war with our neighbours described by econ21 on a lower campaign difficulty.
EDIT : As Augustus Verginius has declined to run for consul, we have no candidates as of yet. I call on all senators who are willing to run for consul to do so. I will be away during this debate, so if anyone wants to run, but does not care for one of my motions, that motion can be considered withdrawn. Note that you can run for 2.5 years or 5 years, and can run alone or together.
EDIT : I have decided to change my consular amendment proposal :
Constitutional Amendment 11.A : We will organize a poll on changing the difficulty settings of the game to M/VH, M/H. M/M, H/VH, H/H or H/M. The one with the most votes, not 2/3 majority, or even a majority, will become the new setting. Only lower house senate member votes on the poll are valid and influence is not a factor in this poll. This amendment itself does require a 2/3 majority of senate votes to pass.
EDIT : I've verified a naval blockade is not possible. I must have been confused with EU II (now that's a game with good diplomacy AI). Accordingly, I am retracting Motion 11.5.
EDIT : Motion 11.9 is retracted, as when Viberi rebels it becomes a rebel town and that will provide a better protection for us than if the Germans get it.
Senator Marcellus Aemilius,
I have re-worded my motions BUT I point out to you that the wording for Motion #11.01 states:
“……targets of Carthago and Hadrumentum as a minimum…..”
As such it does NOT insist that both are held but rather that both are assaulted. Should it seem tactically impossible to assault and hold both, the Consul is free to order you to withdraw to any position you deem most defensible. Indeed, I have previously stated that Carthago should be sacked and only Hadrumentum held.
Senator Valerius Paullus,
My wording of Motion #11.00 has been amended but its focal point is to insist that TWO Consular armies are use.
As for Motion #11.02; we do indeed have armies stationed there. This motion is merely to ensure that they are placed in such a way as to “shepherd” the Iberian force out of our lands.
On motion #11.06 – I agree that an expedition to Rhodes will be folly. The town there is woefully underdeveloped and any force we send will be even MORE isolated than if it was in Byzantion and surrounded by Selucids! I cannot support it.
On my motion #11.04 – I confess, this is purely a personal issue. However, I believed it to have been one that you, Numerius Aureolus, would understand. Long did you lobby for the taking of that city and now….when things appear to dangerous…..you present us with doom and gloom and seemingly preparations for your withdrawal from the city?
Motion #11.04 stands as submitted but Senators, it is MY wish that Byzantion be held at all costs….it may not be yours. If not then do not support it.
(OOC: any ooc amendments I will discuss in the OOC thread).
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Forgive me, I was certainly not arguing for withdrawal from Byzantion. I was merely pondering outloud how best it is to be defended. Merely garrisoning the city and awaiting a siege does not seem the best tactic. On further reflection, I propose the following motion:
Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies and the best places to hold them off are at Maronia and Byzantion. However, it notes that the distance between these two settlements makes it impractical to defend them with just one army and so instructs the First Consul to work towards guarding them each with a Consular sized armies, each with a chirurgeon.
Senators, it seems we are in agreement that now is not the time to move further east. We may wish to take Rhodes (in the light of the First Consul's information, I second to that proposal); we may wish to conduct some opportunistic raides. But we currently intend to adopt a largely defensive stance in the east.
However, in taking this defensive stance, we need to be aware that Seleucia will use the landbridges to attack us unremittingly and we must give careful thought to the forces required to repell such repeated attacks over the next five years.
Currently we have two armies near the straits. Praetor Coruncanius's Field Army I and Legio V. Neither are Consular strength and while each may be able to defeat a Consular sized Seleucid army, I believe they would be quickly worn down by two or three such encounters. To avoid the risk of a repetition of the battles that led to the deaths of two of our Co-Consuls - and to minimise unncessary battlefield losses - I believe that both Maronia and Byzantion need to be guarded by Consular-sized armies.
Senators must note that the two settlements are too far to travel between in a single season and if a Consular sized army marches from Maronia to relieve a besieged Byzantion, it will leave open Maronia for attack. Moreover, it would be reckless to depend on Byzantion repelling an assault on its walls. One only has to read the account of my battle at Ratiaria to see what hypaspists are capable of doing to Roman infantry in confined spaces, and to see why I would prefer to meet them in the open, when they can be more easily flanked by cavalry:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1214547&postcount=34
Some Senators may wonder at the cost of two Consular armies, but this is a foolish distraction. We must stop Seleucia and if we do not do it properly, we will have to waste a lot of gold on emergency recruitment of mercenaries, the sacrifice of settlements and heavy attrition of smaller armies rushed to the scene. Our two armies near the straits are already at the size of one and a half Consular armies - all that will be required is a Praetorian sized reinforcement of a core of good Roman infantry.
On another matter, I would also like to request that the second Consular army heading for Africa first liberate Melite and drive the Carthaginians from Sardinia. Roman honour demands it.
Motion 11.14: This house requires the expulsion of Carthaginian armies from Sardinia and Melite, prior to landing a second Consular army in Africa.
[OOC: there is some weird buggy AI behaviour - the Carthaginians have sat on the beaches in Melite and Sardinia for many many turns doing nothing. Its unrealistic and not good for the roleplaying size of the campaign - confronting them removes this eyesore.]
Numerius Aureolus,
I had imagined that the wording of my Motion was ambiguous enough but obviously not.
By “holding” Byzantion I do not wish to restrict the future Consul and his generals to just sitting IN Byzantion……we still “hold” a settlement as long as it is under our control.
My motion merely wished to impress the fact that we must not Loose control of the city for any reason. If you feel it needs rewording I will do so.
I second your motion #11.14 certainly and without question. However, I believe your motion #11.13 is to restrictive, also I believe we will not need Consular sized armies to defend these two points personally.....if the commanders choose their territory well a legion can hold a far greater force.
Perhaps you would consider re-wording it to "Three Legions" one each for each bridging point with a third in reserve?
Now, on your tactical assessment. I agree that the Selucids will continue to strike at us, however I have a slightly alternative plan which was inspired by your raids South.
Many of the Selucid settlements directly South to us are Coastal and I feel it would be very feasible to assemble a force to strike at these settlements and raid them. We have been shown that we can raid easily into Selucid territory and withdraw before the giant awakes. Now the point of my proposal are several in nature but the main ones are:
Revenue – the sums generated by these raids are very large indeed as are the influx of slaves to our population.
Production – the destruction of Selucid troop training and arming facilities that are ALL within a season or two’s march of OUR territories.
Scorched Earth – we leave the Selucids with a ravaged land where which mainly allows our spies and diplomats a large area to view and “control” without military forces being present.
Currently we have NO early warning of any very large Selucid army marching to the Bosperous (sp) straits, I feel we need to ensure that the Selucids CANNOT recruit and train locally to our border AND that any invading armies need to traverse all the way from the Selucid heartlands before reaching us and allowing us several seasons warning.
This will not require us to remain in their lands, only to leave small holding forces behind which can be paid for from the income generated by the raids. Also the raiding force need not be larger than a legion provided it is well supported by our navy in the area so they can withdraw to the ships should it become untenable.
We currently have naval superiority in the area, we should make THE best use of it now.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius, please consult the report of the second battle of Maronia:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1230600&postcount=43
A single Praetorian army can hold a ford from Gauls. It cannot easily hold a settlement from a Consular sized Seleucid one. Legio V, guarding Byzantion, is in no better shape than Legio IV was before its destruction.
Immediately after Maronia was taken, Seleucia entered Europe with a second army as strong as that which destroyed Legio IV. There was a reason why the First Consul withdrew the First Field Army from Tylis in the face of this advance - and indeed why he refused my request to march Legio V to close the breach at Maronia. The First Consul recognised that sending a Praetorian sized force against a Consular one was folly - even if we succeed, the cost of victory would be too high.
I believe Seleucia can field many more armies of the Consular size. They have many settlements and deep pockets to recruit the ample mercenaries in the lands east of Byzantion (I could have recruited around 1000 men when I ventured there last season).
Senators, we need two Consular armies at the straits. To try to hold off a great kingdom like Seleucia with any less is folly. I do not understand how Senators can recognise that two Consular sized armies are a minimum to confront Carthage, but believe that Seleucia, a mightier power, can be held back with less. Consult the kill ratios for our battles with Seleucia, or the other successor kingdom, Macedonia. They tell the story.
Senator Manius Coruncanius, if you do not will the necessary resources to defend Byzantion, but insist on it being held to the last man, then I fear you will get your wish.
I should also add, that I am quite in agreement with the idea of an active defence of Byzantion, as should be evident by my proposing the raid on Prusa. Having two Consular arimies at the straits would make it much easier to conduct raids on the east, during lulls between Seleucid offensives. Believe me, Senators, men under my command do not sit idly by if I can help it.
StoneCold
09-07-2006, 13:00
I will second motion #11.13 and motion #11.14
Your information has swayed me, I to now second Motion #11.13
Servius's clerk stands, opens a scroll bearing the Aemilii seal, and begins to read.
Senator Servius Aemilius has left me with the following motions for proposal before he embarked upon his expedition.
Motion 11.15 The Carthaginian armies must be drawn away from Carthago for at least 3 seasons following the fall of Lepcis Magna before any consular army lands in Carthage.
This will allow sufficient time to draw away the bulk of their forces.
Motion 11.16 The praetorian army under the command of senator Servius Aemilius will be severely outnumbered, and therefore requests the right to purchase between 4 and 8 mercenary units following the fall of Lepcis Magna.
This will give sufficient troop numbers to defend against a consular sized Carthy army, will provide local troops who know the terrain, the locations and weaknesses of the local cities, and will provide fodder in case a fighting withdrawel is necessary. Why waste good Roman lives when mercenaries are so much more expendable?
He has also given me the right to second motions and vote in his stead. I therefore feel my master would second motions 11.4, 11.6, 11.7, and amendment 11.B .
EDIT - And, after personally reviewing the situation. I think I may have a suggestion myself for the eastern theatre.
Motion 11.17 Employ two units of mercenaries from the Bythinia region, one to garrison Nicomedia and one to garrison Prusa.
This is not with the intention of actually holding the provinces, but rather with the intention of slowing the Seleucids down..and with a strong enough mercenary force sent to Prusa, perhaps Thracian infantry, you may also notice that Pissidia is nearly undefended. After our mercenaries are pushed from Prusa, they may be able to loop around and sack Pissidia, this would continue to hinder the Seleucids and prove that even when outnumbered and surrounded, Rome can still strike out and make itself a sore thorn in the side. The manpower they would need to concentrate on chasing the mercs around would delay them temporarily, one season, maybe two, but any time would be welcome if it allows more troops to reach the eastern theatre.
(OOC - Adding any army unit to these towns before you hit end turn cancels that ctd error. The mercs are the cheapest way to go, and, at this point, the only reasonable option available.)
Motion #11.15 confuses me slightly. Does your master mean to insist that the Consular army withhold from landing near Carthago until at least three seasons after your masters landing at Lepcis Magna?
If it does then I support and second Motion #11.15, even though I feel three seasons march will bring the whole of Carthage against your master….but that is his choice.
As for Motion #11.16 – it is the Consuls choice at the time that allows funds for Mecenaries and instead of a Motion I would propose your master strongly lobby the new Consul directly to release funds for such a task.
Motion #11.17 (mainly for OOC reasons) I also second.
For the record I also support Constitutional Amendment 11.B
[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, Senator Servius Aemilus, please note that Prusa already has a garrison of one mercenary unit and Nicomedia has rebelled, falling to Seleucia. I suggest you withdraw Motion 11.17.
[OOC: I already followed your suggestion, Lucjan, :bow: and the next First Consul will start from 255-su-1.zip]
Senator Servius's clerk speaks up.
I do believe that is exactly what my master intends for motion 11.15
Ah..senator Aureolus, my apologies. I am but an aid, technically my job is the management of my masters estate..but I had noticed this possibility and thought, perhaps, it may be prudent to have said something. I was unaware that the issue had already been resolved. The information I have is, clearly, not quite as up-to-date as Senator Servius's. Err, well..sadly, it may actually be more up-to-date at the moment. Who knows what little he may know of the current situation, what with being out at sea for so long.
Since it has already been taken care of, I will withdraw motion 11.17.
(OOC - Hopefully Prusa has the Thracian infantry?? They could take that unit in Pissidia to town any day.)
I may as well re-word motion 11.15 as well.
Motion 11.15 (re-worded) - The consular army on its way to Carthage is to withhold from landing until the third season following the fall of Lepcis Magna.
(So when lepcis magna falls this summer, the consular army will wait until spring before landing.)
StoneCold
09-07-2006, 17:21
I would have thought [B]Motion 11.15[\B] would do more harm than good to the consular army. From what I understand, most of Carthage's army are still out west, waiting for 3 seasons after being warn of an invasion of Lepcis Magna, would probably lead to most of the armies running eastwards and be in the vincinity of the Carthage when the Consular Army landed. Unless there are clearer intelligence on the disposition of the armies of Carthage, such as 2-3 consular strength armies in a season or two's march from Carthage, I would urge all senators to vote against this motion.
Just let the next consul, with the aid of our spy around Carthage to decide when is the best opportunity to land the force.
Mount Suribachi
09-08-2006, 13:04
Motion 11.15 is one of those motions I have always disliked. It is not for the Senate to be involved in the minutiae of military operations, it only needlessly ties the Consuls hands, and as such I will not support it.
However, I would like to make it clear that I do believe that a landing away from the main cluster of Carthaginian cities is the correct strategy.
With a sigh, Servius's clerk stands, and wishes more senators had some ancillaries of any intelligence to explain things to them.
Three seasons time, by my master's geographer's and mentor's calculations, will place Carthage's armies between one and two seasons march to the south of Carthago. Drawn southeast near Lepcis Magna, the consular army will have sufficient time to take Carthago, garrison the city, then head south towards whatever portion of the Carthy armies make an about-face and head back to take on the Consular army.
I feel that the basic premise of landing a force to the South East of Carthage’s main cities is sound…it will draw the greater bulk of their armies to it.
However, there are several aspects that I am very worried about, not least as I am likely to be attached to the invading Consular army.
Firstly, the Consul stated that he was going to invade Afrika with TWO Consular sized formations, as yet I do not see TWO Consular armies in position. What I do see is ONE Praetorian sized army which sorely requires re-enforcement either before or directly after landing and only ONE Consular army (to which I am attached).
Now, I have stipulated in one of my motions that the invasion of Afrika MUST be with TWO Consular armies and I dearly hope this motion is passed and that the next Consul must abide by it.
For if he does not, I truly hope that our transport ships are kept close by.
My other concern is that I feel that Servius has miss calculated the speed to which Carthage will respond and be in a position to attack his force.
Should his fleet remain close to the Carthaginian coast for a season or two whilst awaiting the Consular armies to be ready then does he, or the Consul, expect the Carthage forces to remain static?
Nay I say! They will see a large fleet off their coast baring troops; they have the same access to spies that we do. They will move a force to await Servius’s landing and all this preparation will be to naught.
This plan has been visualised correctly but enacted poorly. I try not to make a poor reference to the outgoing Consul but I strongly wonder why Servius has actually embarked already?
There is NO second Consular army ready for this invasion….if Servius waits in the sea, on his ships, for such an army to be raised and then marched to a port and then sailed into position…….Gods teeth Senators! Poor Servius will be on the ocean for YEARS Sirs!
I ask the next Consul, whomever it be, to withhold this attack on Afrika until the Republic is fully ready. Until TWO Consular armies are ready to board ships.
As it stands, should one Consular army land near Carthago and Servius’s Praetorian army land near Lepcus Magna, I seriously doubt that we will survive to return to Italia.
As for Senator Servius, he has an able Praetorian legion at his command. It should be put to use aiding the liberation of our Islands before embarking for Afrika.
The freeman clerk turns his attention to young Coruncanius.
If you feel so strongly of the situation senator Coruncanius, do tell, why have you not spoken out against the goings on until now?
The other thing, is master Servius has already embarked because this entire expedition was intended to be a secret, so that Carthage's spies could not possibly know of it, and Lepcis Magna would be caught with its toga down. There is, by all rights, no possible way to contact him until we hear word from Afrika. I imagine we will be hearing of the victory at Lepcis Magna soon, then we might be able to reach him.
I have waited until now as I believed the Consul when he pledged two Consular armies……unfortunately it has taken until now for my own personal informants (i.e. to get the save file) to advise me that the second Consular army doesn’t actually exist yet!
To be honest I feel betrayed but I will perform whatever duties the new Consul puts before me with my utmost vigour.
(OOC: Doesn’t the AI have the same ability to “left click to see details” on formations and fleets that we do? Even if we haven’t physically spied out a formation we can still view some very basic details i.e. those ships have troops onboard or that particular person is leading that army and it contains at least one phalanx unit etc. If it doesn’t then that seems like an unfair advantage the humans have doesn’t it?)
The clerk smirks in agreement. I have noticed often that there are those here who would have us sending legions this way and that, long before said legions actually exist. It is very misleading.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: There is a little over a day before the deadline for motions and the submission of candidates expires. I would implore any candidate for the post of First Consul to step forward and present his manifesto. The Senate cannot be expected to vote blind for someone!
Clerk of Senator Servius Aemilius, it seems that myself and your master see eye-to-eye on such things…..
A messenger enters, out breath and panting, he staggers towards Servius's clerk and presents him with a message, the clerk looks surprised.
Senators, I have just receieved a letter from Senator Servius! Apparently, a merchant ship bound for Rome from Crete was pushed off course by heavy rains and clouded skies, they wandered for a few days before running into Servius's fleet! There, they were given proper navigational charts and this message.
The clerk begins to read the message aloud.
"Senators! I speak to you now from abroad, I can see the sun swept coast of Afrika from our fleets. The sands here glitter as if they themselves were laden with gold, and it is clear to me now why such a place would yield the republic enormous profit. But, as well, I fear the cost. Our scouts have spoken to natives, conversed with merchants leaving their ports, and even purchased from them some of Carthage's own equipment. These Carthaginians have built themselves a nation that looks as though it were gifted from the gods themselves. Their weakest army is purported to be the same size as a Praetorian legion, and their city of Carthago, purported to be the rival of Rome.
Then...when I think back to Rome, and what Rome now resembles compared to what it once was, my heart sinks. We are beset on all sides by enemies who would have our land because they think us weak, because our legions are undermanned, battered, and stretched thin.
We are drained of our treasury by the constant hiring of mercenaries to do the fighting of good Roman men, because there are not enough cities to provide us with true, honorable fighting men. So we are left to draw them from the wandering, the war tribes, and the greedy.
And we are divided within, because our personal interests cannot seem to transcend ourselves and reach an ideal that all should work for the better glory of Rome. But I do not blame you. My life is threatened here in Carthage, and your lives are threatened in the theatres in which you all reside. Why am I so selfish as to think that, say, Numerious Aureolus, or Tiberius Coruncanius, has less of a need of aid than I? Because I am human. But this expedition has given me much time and shown me many sights, that I have set my heart on overcoming such trivial things. I am not now interested in personal desires. My heart lies with Rome, and all who would work for its greater good.
It is in that respect, and I hope that this message does not arrive too late, that I am announcing that I will run for consul. I feel it is my duty, my duty to myself, my duty to the senate, my duty to the people, and my duty for the very ideal of Rome.
I hereby Mandate that by the end of my 5 year term -
1 - Rome's eastern frontier will be reinforced, stabilised, strengthened, and held no matter the cost. The Seleucids and Ptolemies will then be justly punished for their arrogance and betrayal.
2 - Carthage will be delt with on a 'bleed them dry' basis. We will take our shots where we can, run them in circles and drain their treasury dry. After they have been weakened, we will work towards conquering their heartlands. But we cannot send imaginary legions that don't yet exist to fight in outnumbered and enormously costly battles.
In the north, Quintus Libo is moving east to attack Thrace from its backside, but at the same time a small contingent of Iberians have looked across the river and set their eyes on Viberi. This is the only excuse they need, an undefended Roman town, to launch an all out war against our western front. We cannot afford this, it will destroy us. Therefore...
3 - I will put Quintus Libo to good use against the Thracians, but we must remain at peace with Iberia. Viberi will be handled in the most effective way possible. Quintus Libo will be sent to the Thracian front, and war with Iberia will be staved off for as long as is possible.
4 - While the far east is beset upon by the Seleucids, the nearer Greeks and Macedonians are near open revolt! I will stabilise our Greek and Macedonian colonies and ensure that they become, at the very least, acceptable (yellow happiness rating) of Roman rule, rather than discontented and resentful (blue, like they are now). I will strive to make them happy, supporting members of the republic, but greeks are stubborn :laugh4:, and I must work within our limitations. So I cannot promise their absolute support (green.)
5 - I will make economic development a high priority for our towns that bear the most promising economic oppertunities.
6 - Those that have less of a chance of becoming economic powerhouses, will be put to good use by working to make them into soldier producing cities. We can no longer rely solely on the cities of Latium and Etruria to protect the whole of the Republic. It takes a DAMNED long time just to march from Latium to Byzantium! The Greeks and others in the area must begin to pull their weight for the republic. They must begin to supply our lands with a military.
7 - We must also establish new avenues of diplomacy. Our diplomats should embark on missions to far away lands, perhaps Sarmatia or Armenia. Our ships can carry us to the farthest corners of the world senators, any additional trade or alliances would be beneficial in the long run to Rome.
In short, I will strive to make Rome not just into a vision of what it once was, what it was before our neighbors overstretched our lines, plunged us into chaos and war, and stabbed us in the back. I will strive to lay the foundation, the building blocks for all of Rome to be not just equal, but far greatter than it had ever been before. Travelers will look upon the Republic of Rome and see that our sands glitter with gold a thousand times brighter than those of Carthage. They will look upon the strength of our armies and be left in insurmountable awe, they will look upon the defense of our borders, and wonder as to the stupidity of any who would mean us harm. And they will look to our farms, and wonder... How in the HADES we could grow olives the size of a man!
Senators! I set this choice before you. Do what you feel is right for the good and glory of Rome!"
Servius Aemilius
The clerk sets the message aside and bites his lower lip, hoping only that he delivered the message with the passion it was written in.
I share the concerns of Senator Servius Amelius regarding the Iberian force near Viberi. You all know my feelings towards barbarians, but I am not a fool. The Republic absolutely cannot afford a war with Iberia. We must exert our utmost efforts in maintaining the peace until we have achieved domestic security. We cannot afford to wait for the city to rebel against us, we must hand control of it to another nation, immediately, so that a war does not erupt between us and Iberia if they choose to assault it.
Since a Consul is forbidden from giving lands to other nations without Senatorial approval, I propose the following motion.
Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first turn, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.
While I would be displeased if we had to spend 10,000 dinarii to dispose of that dungheap, even that sum would be a bargain in comparison to the costs of an added war with Iberia. Perhaps future Consuls will take such matters into account in the future before illegally expanding beyond the limits allowed by the Senate simply for the purposes of raiding.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senators, as I believe you know, I have decided to keep the polls open until Monday 6pm UK time to allow Lucius Aemilius and Manius Coruncanius to vote.
However, given that we have only just had a manifesto posted - and have a likely candidate who has not yet posted a manifesto - I am inclined to delay opening the polls until Sunday 6pm UK time, rather than begin the voting on Saturday 6pm. This would give us another day to quiz the candidates before anyone commits their vote. At the moment, I feel we may be making this key decision in the dark.
If any Senators are strongly opposed to this idea, please speak now.
GeneralHankerchief
09-08-2006, 22:24
What now follows is the manifesto of Senator Marcellus Aemilius:
Conscript Fathers, we are entering dark times in the Republic. We are at war on all sides except for one, and that one is now threatening us on two fronts. Some people may say that anyone wishing to run for Consul would be insane, but am, after all, the brother of Manius the Mad. :grin:
My priorities lay with consolidation and the Carthaginian Expedition. I believe that the current "staggered attack" format will succeed. According to my calculations, the Consular Army will land on Carthaginian soil three seasons from now. By that time my nephew Servius will have held Lepcis Magna for at least six months, ample time to draw the Carthaginian forces away from our striking point.
Do not forget, Senators, that the purpose of this Expedition was to make money. Our treasury has been drained by the constant warring, especially with the loss of trade with Ptolemy and Seleucia. With our strikes on Afrikan territory I aim to get that money back. Let me tell you my exact plans in regard to this:
-First of all we will only hit cities on the coast.
-Servius Aemilius will take and hold Lepcis Magna. It will most likely be the only town held in the entire Expedition. This is the first strike. It will also draw the Carthaginian forces away from my landing point.
-Two seasons later, I will hit a city on the Northern Coast, most likely Utica or Hippo Reguis. It will also bring the Carthaginian forces back here to me.
-This will continue until all cities on the Afrikan Coast are raided. I want these cities crippled so badly that the Carthaginians cannot recover from it. Ordinarily my goal would be simple conquest, be we simply do not have enough troops to spare.
-In addition, I also want the Carthaginian armies significantly lessened. We do not know exactly how many there are, but we know there are a lot.
-Finally, if our forces are still intact, we shall expel the Carthaginian forces from Melite and Sardinia.
In addition to the Expedition, I want our Greek cities to fully realize their economic potential. In order to do this, we must first pacify the cities. Religious buildings will be a priority, as will Auxilia ones. I eventually would like to see Provincial Barracks built in at least two cities.
As far as reinforcements go, the Eastern Front will be the priority. Eventually the forces of Senators Aureolus and Coruncanius should be increased to Consular-size strength to properly weather the storm.
I believe that our forces this side of the Alps are numerous enough to hold off the Iberians. They will be properly rotated if the fighting gets hard. Viberi, however, is another matter. I have absolutely no intention of warring with them, and will seek to get rid of it at all costs. If worst comes to worst, I may just give the settlement to them.
Rhodes is another priority. Its Collossus is a massive monument that calls all ships near it to dock, and thus the naval trade for our entire Republic will skyrocket if taken. This would be a huge boost to our income and it will be taken by the end of my five-year term.
In order to take it, however, one of our legions must be freed up to do so. This is why I want war on the Thracian Front to be finished up. Perhaps the Field Army II or Legio I Italia Vitrix could be relieved by the German Legion once it is done conquering in the far north.
I believe I have addressed my plans for all fronts as well as my domestic priorities. In closing, I have some words for the generals. Senators, hard times are ahead. You will consistently be tested, especially those on the Eastern Front, by armies that are larger than us. Reinforcements will be sparse. This is not a time for heroes. This is a time for brutally efficient soldiering. You must kill them without dying. If my economic and auxilia plans are implemented, then there will come a time in the near future where we are not desperately floundering for cash and all people will tremble in fear of Rome.
Thank you.
(My response to the motions will come shortly.)
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I am grateful to Senators Marcellus and Servius Amelius for providing their manifestoes. I will require some time to digest them and identify any differences in the two programmes.
In the interim, I would like to withdraw motion 11.14, requiring clearing Melite and Sardinia of Carthaginians. While my heart is still in favour of this motion, I have been persuaded that the casualties from such actions would handicap our main push into Africa. I do not wish to make the First Consul's job any harder than it already is and so I withdraw the motion.
I would also like to advise the candidates to be flexible regarding the timing of our landing in Carthage. Spies have reported large Carthaginian armies marching west from Carthage, towards Iberia. If they take the bait provided by the landings in Lepcis Magna and march east, I fear they only reach Carthage and the heartlands in Africa in around two seasons - that is to say, the time proposed by Servius Aemilius for the landing of the Consular army. I believe we have spies in Africa, I would propose using them to assist in timing the landing but above all remain flexible.
I have a series of questions for both candidates.
Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?
Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?
By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?
To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?
GeneralHankerchief
09-09-2006, 01:04
I welcome and thank you for your questions, Senator Coruncanius.
Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?
It is a risk, yes. But it is necessary. There are simply not enough proven veteran commanders to lead every force. You will find that I am a very able leader, Senator Coruncanius.
Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?
Legio V Alaudae will be unified and immediately sent to Byzantion. Senator Aureolus has personally requested to repel any Seleucid attempts to take the city by sally battle, and I trust his combat acumen to let him. As for Field Army I, you know your fighting style best. Tell me where to place the army and chances are that it will be placed there.
By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?
Just Lepcis Magna. We do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika, so the Expedition will be a series of raids, just like Senator Verginius did with Gaul some time ago. Lepcis Magna is intended to be a foothold to be used for attacks on Carthage at a later date. It is situated pretty much away from the action, and I will not put a significant defending force in there nor care if it is taken.
To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?
As soon as Thrace is destroyed, I intend to get rid of all lands beyond the Danube. My long-term goal is once our financial situation stabilizes that legions guard the crossings.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Do none of the candidates have any plans of ever conquering Afrika? I ask this because it seems raids are the main course of action being discussed. Now, this is all good and well to bolster our treasury and cripple theirs, not to mention slow down their unit production, but if we go down this road, I must know that there will be no long term plans of conquering the place. Reason being of course that all the infrastructure we destroy, we will then have to build back up and spend ten times more money than we got in the first place.
In short, I support either a series of raids on all the Afrikan cities we can get to, or a well thought out plan to actually conquer certain cities and areas, but not both. I would appreciate any clarification of the matter by either of the candidates. This, I believe, is a central issue in this coming election, at least for my vote.
Avicenna
09-09-2006, 07:48
I second motions #11.14, 11.15 and 11.16
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Cornelius Saturnius raises a good point - we are making Africa the first priority for our spare troops, but only for a grand raid?!? Senators, this strategy seems more worthy of our barbarian neighbours than Romans! If we are to move into Africa, it must be for good.
The region is very self-contained. There is at best one entrance by land, over the straits of Gibraltar. Consequently, the costs of occupying it in the long term are only settlement garrisons and a force at the straits. It would not greatly extend our land frontier. The cost in blood of taking the settlements would not be very different, regardless of whether they are held or abandoned. We would have to defeat the major Carthaginian armies regardless. Holding the settlements permanently would greatly increase our tax base, provided we do not demolish all the buildings. Looting would provide rich temporary injections of cash, but Senator Cornelius Saturnius is right, the buildings themselves are worth more than the sum of their parts.
Ultimately, we are destined to occupy Africa. If we are willing to pay the blood price to take it now, I see no point in just looting it and giving it back to Carthage. In such a case, we would merely have to pay a second blood price to take it again, perhaps from the Iberians or a renascent Carthage. No, Senators, if we go to Africa, we should stay. Carthage must be destroyed and we must take her place in the sun!
Senators, I would like the candidates to reflect on this and other Senators to let their views on the matter be known. I may even propose a motion requiring Africa to be held permanently. I believe the Speaker has granted us another 24 hours for debate and proposing of motions so we have time to deal with this matter properly.
Mount Suribachi
09-09-2006, 10:55
I agree with Cornelius Saturninus and Numerius Aureolus that the expidition to Carthage must be one of conquest, and not one of raiding.
Their cities are well built and developed. These are not some ram-shack stinking barbarian hovels we are talking about! We will not have to pay an enormous amount to bring them up to Roman standards - unless we tear them down and then build them back up again!
Furthermore, taking the coastal cities will not cripple the Carthaginian military threat. They will still be able to recruit huge numbers from deep in their hinterlands.
No, I am afraid that the only way to fight in Carthage is to fight as if we mean to stay! Numerius is correct in his pointing out that once we have conquered all of Carthage, we will have a self-contained, safe area of our Republic. The way from Egypt to Carthage is impassable (OOC: landblock), we merely have to block the southern part of the straits of Gibraltar.
We must conquer Carthage - all of it!
Dutch_guy
09-09-2006, 12:01
First of all I'd like to point out I'm not a fan of this invasion at all, I find it to be a waste of troops which could have been sent to re enforce our eastern frontiers, and for that matter our Western ones at well. This whole invasion will backfire at one point or the other, it's just a matter of time.
However, what can I do about it ? It has already been decided.
Thus, I am of opinion that if we do such an invasion, we do it the Roman way. We stay, and face the consequences of our actions, in the long run I think holding the settlements will be better than raiding them, that counts in particular for the Coastal cities. As is already said, why destroy something we'll eventually have to rebuild ?
:balloon2:
StoneCold
09-09-2006, 12:27
I believe that the main aim of this invasion was to raise money for our failing economy due to the lost of sea trade to nearly everyone except ourselves and the Iberians. This could be achieve either by raid, for the short term gain, or conquest for the long term gain. I think it will actually hinder Carthage in that the costal cities are the best developed of their cities and thus are where the majority of their incomes and best troops are coming from.
I believe that if we are able to capture the wall cities, holding them on the city walls from the inferior swordsman of Carthage will be not a difficult proposition. As such I would lend support to an invasion rather than just a raid.
Servius's clerk stands, preparing a responce to all of the questions fielded.
From senator Tiberius Coruncanius.
I have a series of questions for both candidates.
Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?
Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?
By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?
To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?
Firstly, I do not believe that senator Servius feels the risk is with giving our young generals a large army at all, but that the risk is in not providing them with adequate advice, information, and support. Commanding a large army is the same as commanding a small, it is all just a matter of organisation, and Rome's armies, senator, are the most disciplined fighting men in the world. As proven during the Publius Laevinus incident, where the men were led by Manius the Mad. This legion, in essence, had no commander, which is far worse than simply a young one, yet they still, by their own free will, worked to the best of their abilities to put the threat down. As you know they were overwhelmed, but any of our bright young generals has the ability to have fought that battle and won.
Secondly, senator Servius has mentioned to me multiple times that the blatant hard-nosed defense of static positions like Byzantium and legionary forts will not win us the war in the east until we can wear the enemy down to a manageable level through cunning tactics and superior strategy. He has mentioned leaving small garrisons in these places, and withdrawing our armies out of sight but within a short march from them. The Seleucids will be enticed into an easy target and lay siege, the legions, led by our highly skilled commanding senators, would be well able to surround and summarily obliterate the enveloped besiegers before they knew what hit them. I cannot immediately, until a more in depth study is done into our unit positions a bit later, comment on exactly who will be where fighting whom, but all our eastern generals will experience their fair share of combat.
I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?
Carthage is a tenuous situation at best right now, until we can free up significant resources to launch a conquering invasion, which Servius has mentioned to me to hope to be able to do within a year and a half's time, by then we will have the eastern front stabilised and be able to begin strongly securing our borders there. Until then we can only announce vague predictions and speculations. The most important order of business for Carthage is attempting a guerilla war against their armies to widdle them down to a manageable level, and then, after Rome is no longer in such terribly dire straits, could we speak seriously of conquest in Carthage. We do, however, realise that conquest of Carthage must begin within the next five years, and we hope to make significant gains in this region as soon as we can. A fair, realistic proposal for what we hope to accomplish here would be...taking and holding Lepcis Magna, Thapsus, Hadrumentum, Carthago and Utica, within the next five years.
Also, senator Servius believes that any conquering expedition on the opposite side of the Danube would be an ill thought maneouver at the moment, but he does most certainly wish to send a legion across the river to try to gather logistical intelligence and to potentially hunt down and destroy roaming Thracian armies.
Are there any further questions I can assist with?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Good - given that I am not alone in wishing a permanent settlement of the dispute with Carthage, I propose:
Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.
I understand that there is merit in dealing first with Carthage before turning to Asia. Its lands are much more self-contained and while it is strong militarily, it has more limited resources to draw upon than Seleucia and Egypt. But I would resent merely defending the straits for five years if all it buys us is time to conduct a raid in Africa. If all that is needed is money, a grand raid in Asia would probably make more sense. Carthage seems incapable of moving effectively against us - its landings in Melite and Sardinia have stalled. We could probably ignore it for five years. By contrast, Seleucia is a real threat whose armies we must confront, whether on our soil or by a great raid through Asia Minor.
The motion needs two seconders - I would be grateful for the support of the Senators who have just spoken.
On a point of information, I have been informed by the Senate speaker that the list of motions will be updated this evening and voting will commence at 6pm Sunday (UK time).
Servius's clerk pipes up again.
In regards to congruence with my master's views, I hereby second motion 11.19 in his name.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?
To clarify, I agree that fighting the Seleucids in the open is preferable to merely defending Byzantion. That was the point of mentioning a sally battle - it is preferable to awaiting an assault. Unfortunately, Byzantion is currently too unruly to be left without either my presence as a governor or a significant contingent from Legio V. Senators will see the force that could be spared to raid Prusa - a mere 322 men:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1233110&postcount=45
This situation should gradually be relieved if the next First Consul invests in shrines and other buildings to win over the local populace; and/or provides Legio V with substantial reinforcements.
Nothing would please me more than to have Legio V capable of fighting in the field as a mobile force - operating in the area around Byzantion rather than being constrained to stay within the city itself. Your suggestion of a trojan horse tactic is certainly one I find appealing.
The clerk strokes his chin.
It will be, not simply a boon, but a necessity, to have mobile forces in the area if Seleucia is to be layed firm amongst the dirt. The eastern theatre is, quite clearly, in sore need of reinforcements, without them and a mobile force the east will be lost. My master realises this.
StoneCold
09-09-2006, 14:46
I will second Motion 11.19 then.
I have openly stated before that any attack on Carthage must be designed to take and hold their core cities. The value of these places is in their trade and it would be pure folly to strip them of their great infrastructure for short-term gain. These are not poor Gallic provinces that would aid the Republic little in the long-run. These are wealthy, prosperous cities whose control will greatly benefit us... but only if they remain intact. Strip them of their infrastructure and their use to us will be greatly diminished.
For this reason, I formally support Senator Servius Aemilius for the position of Consul. This competition between the Aemilii puts me in a difficult position and I wish it to be clear that I believe the Republic will be in good hands, regardless of the outcome of this election. However, both Consuls are proposing raiding Carthage rather than conquering it. So be it, but Marcellus Aemilius plans to strip all of their cities bare, something that I do not believe is in the Republic's best interests. If we cannot conquer them now, then we should hold back from anything more than destroying their armies and enslaving their children to work in our mines. When the time eventually comes for us to conquer Carthage fully, we will then reap the rewards of earlier restraint.
GeneralHankerchief
09-09-2006, 16:04
Ok, a little explaining is needed.
The reason I proposed a series of raids is that we do not know how many Carthaginian forces there are out there. Our spy Decius Curtius is currently around Thapsus - he should be sent to the unknown area. I estimate that there will be at least three Consular-size armies to the west of Carthago, probably closer to five.
Five Consular-size armies in the heart of their lands, Conscript Fathers. And that's just near the coast. Who knows how many more are lurking deeper in the desert?
A direct invasion while Carthage is at full strength is foolishness, Senators. We simply do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika. These raids will not knock out the entire cities, just their military buildings. The purpose of them is to get enough money so that we can stablilize our economy, and be strong enough to fully challenge Carthage later.
This is the same thing that happened with Greece and Macedon all over! We go in with the prospect of conquering land, and making money but it turns out that pacifying them costs too much and we've opened up whole other cans of worms now. If Carthage is taken over we will border Iberia on her homeland. I shudder to think how many armies they have there.
Please Senators, use your heads. Carthage will be conquered, but it must be a gradual process. This is but the first step.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The list of motions and their seconders (first post in this thread) is up to date. Please notify me of any errors spotted. Some motions still lack two seconders.
The deadline for motions and candidates is 6pm (UK time) on Sunday and there will follow a 24 hours period of voting.
Mount Suribachi
09-09-2006, 17:02
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]
[b]Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.
Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.
I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.
Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.
I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I concur with Senator Paullus about this. It is never good to put extra restrictions and limit tactical and strategic options in such a way. I must request a change in the motion for further support of it.
Furthermore, I'd like to second the following motions.
11.16
11.18
We need another seconder for Motion 11.18, it is imperative. Please do so senators.
StoneCold
09-09-2006, 20:04
I will second Motion 11.18 then.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I wonder if this revision of motion 11.19 is acceptable:
"This house requires that any campaign in Carthaginian territory in Africa be aimed at permanent occupation, not raiding and subsequent abandonment."
I have no interest in impeaching future First Conuls or making them fight to the last man for some worthless settlement. However, it is an important decision whether we go into Africa for a grand raid or for permanent occupation.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
As long as it is not forcefully mandated that every single Carthaginian city we take must be held immediately, all will be well. I believe the revision is acceptable. The details will be left up to the Consul's discretion.
Mount Suribachi
09-09-2006, 20:27
The reworded motion 11.19 is acceptable to me, and as such I will second it
I will also second motion 11.18
I am not particularly satisifed with either of the candidates' proposals for dealing with Carthage. It would appear that they are afraid to confront the might of Carthage directly. They are certainly not cowards, so it must be their inexperience. They've never commanded a large army, and I don't think they've ever seen a proper Roman Consular Army in action, although they might have read about one. They're simply unaware that no possible Carthaginian force can defeat one. Maybe if the Carthaginians succeed in coordinating the efforts of three or more of their large armies, but they've never been able to do that, they're far too disorganized. Why, they only have a handful of them. Five, according to the estimate of Marcellus Aemilius. We could crush them in five battles! A steady stream of reinfrocements and local mercenaries ought to be able to make up for the losses.
But I guess that's not an option this time around. I suppose I'd support Servius Aemilius because at least his plan involves eventual conquest. That's assuming that he doesn't cancel the invasion on the grounds that it would be too risky!
Servius's clerk ponders the remark for a moment before offering his reply.
My master's feet are set firm in the sands senator Coruncanius. Though a 'steady stream' of reinforcements may be difficult to achieve with our meager fleet somehow needing to be in multiple places at once, we were counting on a significant number of mercenaries, perhaps Berbers or Iberians, to help reinforce any gap in our lines. But the lands we take will be held.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Now that I have had a chance to study the manifestoes and words of the two candidates, I must declare myself in favour of Servius Aemilius. I apologise to Marcellus Aemilius for retracting a premature undertaking of support that I had made earlier in private. I believe both candidates would be worthy choices, but the key issue for me is that we go to Carthage as conquerors, not raiders.
GeneralHankerchief
09-10-2006, 01:45
Very well, it seems that the Senate has opted for my nephew Servius. I will not withdraw my candidacy, but hope that the strategy that you have agreed to is a wise choice, and also hope that Senator Coruncanius is correct when it comes to the handling of the Consular Army.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).
As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.
If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.
I agree, and therefore second motion 11.14
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators, I would like to propose -
Motion 11.20 "Upon the conquest of Carthage, the city be renamed to New Rome".
Seeing as how the invasion and conquest of Afrika will be a milestone in our glorious history, and the city of Carthage itself will be a great resource for our Republic, I think it fitting to rename the city as proposed as a testament to Roman expansion and Roman rule. It will also make it easier for the new people's to assimilate and become good Roman producers for our benefit.
OOC: This (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1223369&postcount=8) is possible in 1.5 and BI. Would be a cool way to implement it for our game ~:) . Of course, if there is a better suggestion for any other name, that can be made known. "New Rome" is just the first thing that came into my head, but it could have something to do with Jupiter or other Roman gods, or some other Roman name for some RP purpose. Maybe the name of a great general who conquers the city or leads the campaign. I think that'd probably make it the most interesting.
GeneralHankerchief
09-10-2006, 05:19
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).
As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.
If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.
No!
Have the deaths of Amulius Coruncanius and Publius Pansa taught you nothing? Romans, while strong, are not invincible!
Senators, please, I beg of you to reclaim your sanity! What are our motives here? Is it to invade Carthage and make money or simply kill as many of them as we can before we are overwhelemed?!
If the Senate commands me to attack Consular-size forces on Sardinia and Melite, then my army will be battle-worn even before the invasion starts! And then there's still the fact that there's the massive amounts of troops on the actual bloody continent! As word of this debate reaches my army their morale gets lower every day. They believe you send them to their deaths!!!
Opposition to my plan has been universal, but look at my most vocal critics. Numerius Aureolus is far away in Byzantion. Not even he dares to invade Asia Minor, instead just wishes to raid it - just like my plan with Carthage! Cornelius Saturnius talks of glorious achievements and conquests, what does he care? He's safe in Tylis with his legion. He might see some action against Thrace or take Rhodes, but he's not about to face giant army after giant army!
Please Senators, I beg of you to tell me what I did wrong so I may know why you wish to see me dead along with my men.
Well, Senator Marcellus Aemilius, if you feel that you are unable to execute the orders which the Senate and the Consul give to your army, then feel free to request to be relieved from your post. I am sure that there is no shortage of brave men who would very much wish to act as your replacement.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, I have no objection to conquering Asia. Give me a Consular army and you may be surprised at the results.
However, I do believe that conquering Carthage is the more natural first move before venturing deep into Asia. I agree, we should not underestimate the challenge. In part, I am proposing reclaiming the islands as an exercise to gauge how well the Consular army performs against strong Carthaginian opposition. This will allow us to judge what level of support it requires. If as a result, the next Consul decides that invading Carthage requires two Consular armies, then I would not object.
I agree with you - five Consular sized armies in Africa are a challenge. To simply land one Consular army there and battle them all would be reckless. At the very least, it would need a continual flow of reinforcements to make sure our Consular army is kept up to full strength, after detaching garrisons and replacing losses. A simple strategy would be to land the Consular army with the Praetorian one at Lepcis Magna and fight our way up to the coastal road to Carthage. The Consular army, supported by a Praetorian army providing replacements, should be able to endure whatever the Carthaginians throw at it, provided a steady stream of replacements is ensured.
If we first provoke the Carthaginians to move on Lepcis Magna while we retake the islands, that would be to our advantage. It will take them longer to reach Lepcis Magna that it would our Consular army, even after retaking the islands. The Carthaginians would be further away from their reinforcements. Furthermore, with a phalanx-based army like that of Carthage, we would have an advantage fighting defensive battles - we can tire out our opponents before combat starts.
Senator Marcellus Aemilius, you seem to assume that any losses the Consular army suffer retaking the islands will not be made good. Given the priority assigned to the forthcoming Afrika campaign, this is not a reasonable assumption. There is no reason we cannot make good those losses (unless they are catastrophic, in which case we need to rethink the whole project or at least its commander). Indeed, throughout the campaign, I believe the Consul must strive to make good any losses suffered by the Consular army, until the major Carthaginian armies are all defeated, unless it is to be ground down into nothing. This reasoning is also why, in motion 11.13, I propose building up our eastern armies to Consular strength.
Motion 11.14 is partly a motion about pacing. I agree it would not be prudent to land a single under-strength Consular army in Afrika. I envisage the invasion of Afrika as a slow, deliberate exercise. The strength of the opposition, our limited resources and the wide open spaces involved imply that it will not be a quick blitz. I imagine it could be completed in the next five years, but it would not be a great loss if it takes longer.
I second motion 11.20.
Following private communication with Servius Aemilius, I am also revising motion 11.13 to give the next First Consul more flexibility:
revised Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.
Proposed: Numerius Aureolus
Seconded: Manius Coruncanius, Augustus Sempronius
Mount Suribachi
09-10-2006, 12:51
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).
I cannot and will not support this motion! The Carthaginian armies on Melite and Sardinia are no threat to us! Thanks to the tireless efforts of Concul Lucius Aemilius the Carthaginian navy is all but wiped out and it will take them many seasons to rebuild it. The enemy armies on those 2 islands can do nothing to us, and the islands themselves are sparsely populated and of little value.
If we are to win this war with Carthage whilst we are faced with so many other challanges, we must strike fast, strike hard, and hit them where it hurts!!. Landings on these islands will only further delay the main course, which is the taking of North Africa. Furthermore, it will whittle down our strength, requiring reinforcements (which will be needed elsewhere), thus causing even more delays.
No, I say conquer Africa first, then we can defeat these armies at out leisure.
In light of recent evidence and opinions, I must withdraw my support for motion 11.14 I see now that if we hit Carthage hard at her homeland, she will be crippled. The Carthaginian armies on Sardinia and Melite are there because Carthage wants to know of an invasion before it happens. We must fight them on our terms, right where it will hurt them most; Afrika.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am now closing this session of Senate - no more motions may be proposed or seconded. The results of the Consul elections and the voting will be announced in 24 hours.
It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family to now speak in favour of Senator Servius Aemilius for Consul.
Long have our two families been at odds but, today this bickering feud ends.
I will be happy to serve under Servius Aemilius as a loyal member of the Republic and I will rebuild my family alongside the Aemilius's as the new Consul leads us into a new era of prosperity.
Granted, it seems a wild dream at this moment. Such talk of prosperity must appear at odds with our situation but I can see such a dawn if we are lead by this stout citizen.
It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family...
Hey! I'm not dead yet!
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-11-2006, 00:32
Conscript fathers,
I am placed with an impossible dilemma. Two members of my family, strong and proud men, who I am proud to be pater familias of, are both striving for that most exalted of positions, the position of First Consul.
As you can see, senators, whomever I will back as my choice, all I will achieve is a Pyrrhic victory here. I hope my family will see that my choice for first consul is not driven by a lack of respect for their skills, but for concern about the fate of our great Republic.
My son Marcellus is of course correct that Carthage is a formidable enemy and this is a very risky expedition. I have pointed this out myself, but I have also explained that our best long term strategy is the conquest of Carthage, no matter the cost.
Realize fully what I imply here, senators. We must succeed in this war of conquest against Carthage or perish as a nation. If this means starving our armies on our other fronts from reinforcements, then so be it. If it means losing territory in the east, or even the west, then so be it. We must succeed in bringing the sons of Dido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) into our fold !
The conquered cities must not be pillaged more than necessary (i.e. military and auxilia buildings and slaves) and then they will provide a vital boost to our economy. Initially I suggest only conquereing the Cartheginian heartland, as the desert villages are hardly profitable conquests, but then I advise destroying Carthage as a nation completely, to stop the inevitable endless desert raids from the south. Iberia should not be greatly troubled by this expedition, as we are attacking their enemy, and contrary to many reports I've heard there is no landroute at Gibraltar to my knowledge, so Iberia will not interpret this as a new threat to her border (and besides, we already share a border with Iberia).
My main concern, really my only concern is that this is a war of conquest which will remove an enemy and provide us with a profitable new province. As my son Marcellus, who I would have backed due to his experience and age, has not changed his views from raiding to conquest, I am left with no other option but to support my grandson Servius instead.
Lastly, I would like to point out that I never said two consular armies were underway to Carthage. I even stated that this was not the case, but clearly my messages to the senate have gone unheeded by some.
OOC : Rome was great.
Tiberius Coruncanius,
Greatest apologies Elder (OOC: Miss read the current .sav files family tree), but I am sure you agree that at this time our internal feud with the Aemilius’s should cease immediately. The Republic needs us united behind a strong Consul and as both were Aemilius’s we must support them as a family Elder.
Senator Lucius Aemilius,
I hope I did not imply that you had stated that two Consular armies were underway. I did not, to clarify for your honour you did not state that but neither did I state that you had. Rather only, that you had pledged that two such forces would be ready for that invasion but they are not ready whilst our future Consul is already on board ships and ready to strike.
Tis old news now and bares not taking further but I wished only to make you and the Senate aware that I would not slander you intentionally.
Carthage……now Senators, assuming that the predictions of their forces are correct that I have heard here, three perhaps four Consular armies, then it is very possible that we can defeat them.
However, we certainly DO need two Consular armies to do this. NOT because one Consular army plus the expanded Praetorian army are insufficient to destroy those armies in the field but it is rather a question of logistics.
Assume we land and immediately strike at Carthago, we take it with our usual efficiency, then we wish to move on to Hadrumentum which is now re-enforced. Do we split our Consular army significantly to garrison Carthago before marching onto Hadrumentum to face perhaps two Consular sized formations PLUS the city walls?
No, far more tactically sound to raise two Consular armies, invade and take both cities at the same time and then take apart the Carthaginian military in detail whilst safe in the knowledge that we can KEEP both cities both suppressed AND safe from a counter strike by the Carthaginians.
Currently, we do not have the coin, the population OR time to recruit that 2nd Consular army. We may have these requirements in 2 years time but not now.
We can strike against Carthage now, to a lesser extent, and keep her armies away from our own lands whilst we prepare for an invasion AND we can use the military might we have already in the Consular army I am with NOW to ensure security in the East.
All this talk of Carthage has lead us away from a more immediate problem, namely Selucia.
Ah, Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, it seems that these youngsters have forgotten the level of respect due to their elders. We of the old guard must make sure they remember the services of all those who came before them. Bah, there are some here today who never even heard the great Quintus speak! Children in the Senate...
Augustus,
I wish you great success on the battlefield in the difficult time to come but should your sword prove to be as sharp as your wit Sir, I have a butter knife you can borrow……
(OOC: :laugh4: )
You speak the truth, Augustus Verginius. It's funny how everyone is going on about the great 'crisis' Rome is in. Yeah, we have many enemies, but they are far away. Our many mighty armies have been handily defeating them in most engagements. And our terrible financial situation means that we're only making over 10000 denarii per year. Yeah, what a great crisis that is. I'll tell you what a crisis is. A crisis is when you peak over the walls of Rome and see Pyrrhus of Epirus (remember that guy?) sitting outside with an uncountable multitude of men and hundreds, maybe thousands of elephants! Well, my memory isn't what it used to be, but I think that's how it was. Sure, they read about the battle, and think, "ok, some guy named Quintus defeated some Greek army." Yeah, that's happened many times since. What they don't realize is what a weak state Rome was in, and how close it came to perishing completely! It's because of men like Quintus that a "crisis" can mean that we can only undertake one major invasion at a time! Not three, it's a crisis! Run for your lives!!
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-11-2006, 14:26
Senator Manius Coruncanius,
I am pleased to see our differences reconciled and I applaud your efforts to unite the senate behind the next first consul.
I am of course aware of the Seleucid threat, but we can gain no victory in the East. If the situation warrants it, I even recommend withdrawing from the East so as to concentrate on our offensive against Carthage. It is best to strike hard at the hornet's nest then to continue to swat at single hornets.
When Rhodes is taken, I recommend that the first consul makes peace with the Ptolemaic empire, and if possible, forges an alliance with them. It is clear that the Ptolemaic empire is losing ground to the Seleucid empire (sotto voice : as I predicted, Tiberius Coruncanius), and if they are crushed then the Seleucid empire will become nigh unstoppable.
I also recommend that the first consul orders Titus Vatinius to crush the numerous bands of brigands than are plundering our Greek and Illyrian provinces.
OOC : I see that I incorrectly blamed econ21 for using his auguries. My sincere apologies for jumping the gun there.
I also cannot see a victory in the East if by “victory” you mean the destruction of Selucia. Such a victory I do not see for many, many years.
We can attain victory though if a “victory” consists of preventing our lands from being pillaged by the Selucids, we must ensure we have sufficient manpower to repel the Selucids then we can see what manpower we can bring to bare against Carthage.
Like you, and indeed the new Consul, I acknowledge that Carthage is a great threat and must be dealt with completely. However, don’t believe we have sufficient men to man such an expedition.
Granted, perhaps the out-going Consul has played up our “lack of funds” a little but with very nessassary building projects going unstarted because we only have a surplus of 10,000 denarii each season we cannot afford the required funds for a conquest of Carthage.
No matter what funds it will provide us, the simple fact is that if we are to keep our cities free from open Revolt then we have to invest in them and if we do this we do not have enough funds to raise the troops that would be required for a proper invasion of Carthage.
Suffice to say Senator Lucius, that all we can afford at this time is only the expeditionary invasion of Afrika. Truth is, it pains me as well but it is all we can achieve for now.
We do not need to withdraw from the East, all we need is time to assemble a properly formed invasion force.
I am glad that you have retained your good humour with regards the other peoples of the world though, even at my age I have long since lost all hope that ANY would forge an alliance with us.
I have also noted a great many brigand warbands mentioned to me by the couriers and second your call for someone to deal with them with urgency for they will be having a very great effect on our revenue.
As for my Grandfather, I am shocked at the derision spoken by you. Certainly you cannot compare the Republic at its beginning to what it is today and hence I am surprised that a man of such age and wisdom as you would attempt to do so.
Grandfather, the Republic has grown to such an extent since Quintus’s time. Pyrrhus was but one enemy, the only one we had on that day, now we have many enemies and a great many number of cities to run and citizens to please. If you inflate the “crisis” of that time and compare them fairly I am sure you will appreciate that our troubles now are at least equal to those times whilst being perhaps too abstract to appreciate fully.
And rest assured, Quintus’s deeds are well counted in the Academes’ and his actions are counted high above with those of Romulus even. He is still held in awe by the students and his tactics taught with vigour.
A messenger enters the senate floor and proudly presents a package to Servius's clerk. Opening it, the clerk smiles broadly and begins, enthusiastically, to adress the senate.
"Senators! I am proud to present you with the first message from our consul abroad!
Senators,
I am deeply gratified to hear of your choice to elect me as the next consul. You all have my promise, these next five years will be ones of a powerful resurgance in Roman might. Not just militarily either, no. These last few years have been hard on Roman coffers and our favor in the eyes of the gods. But Rome will become rich again, and the gods will see the folly in their brief divergance from Roman support.
I'm sure you have already determined, judging from this letter and my knowledge of the consular election results, that Lepcis Magna has fallen. And your assumptions would be correct. Though not large enough of an endeavour to really merit a battle report for our tactical libraries, I will provide a brief summary of the expedition.
We landed at midday on the shores just west of the city, the fleet given orders to head to port and blockade it so that there would be no escapees by way of the sea, we waited out the greater portion of the day, and were able to procure the services of some numidians discontented by Carthy rule for a small sum. Skirmishers, but useful none the less. With the city's meager defences concentrated on calming the citizenry's panic over the blockade, we were able to approach the city from the rear of their governmental building. When nightfall came around, while the bulk of our formation waited in columns at the outskirts of the city, our funditores drew the patrolling punic skirmishers away from the city. I took charge to their rear before they could get within range of our men, and our new Numidian friends hurled their javelins into their backsides. They took flight, we took chase...and we were left with the simple matter of dealing with the Libyan spearmen still left in the center of the city. The numidians took one street, our velites and samnites took the other, surrounding the spearmen they performed magnificently. Whenever the spearmen presented their backs to either group they were met with a volley, and whenever they got too close, our skirmishers took to fleet of foot and outran them in the opposite direction.
Needless to say, after all was done, Lepcis Magna now lay in our hands, we have culled nearly 4,500 slaves from its population, and..oh, yes. The casualty report. Here it is.
https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6652/lepcismagnavictoryty8.jpg
As you can see, if Mars continues to hold us in such high favor as he has done today, the future is bright indeed.
As for other things. The Iberian army in the Alpine Pass has been blocked by our forces, should they wish for war, they will be sorely punished, and if they back down, then we can only hope that their prudence continues to outweigh greed, and, honestly, stupidity. I have already ordered the immediate initiation of extensive building projects throughout the Greco-Macedonian regions and have begun to restructure and reorganise the tactical mess we seem to have gotten ourself into, I will go into more detail when this has been completed.
For now, things are beginning to look up, and I hope the future holds the fruits of prosperous days for all of Rome.
In nomini Roma, et pro totus doxa deum.
Consul Servius Aemilius"
The clerk looks out amongst the senators and smiles.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-11-2006, 20:44
I think I speak for all the senate when I congratulate my grandson on this excellent beginning of his consulship.
I beg the consul however, pray tell us if you made sure all the slaves ended up in the cities that most need the population, and not in Corinth, Athens and so forth ?
(OOC - I thought I moved everybody unnecessary out, but I guess I missed Athens...)
Congratulations and I hope the others in my family will join me in this sentiment. A good start to your Consulship indeed.
I am apparently the first to congratulate our forces on their destruction of the Thracian horde. Proof again, if more was needed, that our armed forces are capable of amazing feats of heroics and skill.
I am told that soon I shall depart these shores. I cannot say to where though, but tonight I shall pray to Mars and Jupiter for my safe journey and that I may perform my duties well for the Republic.
Servius's clerk nods.
I'm sure, were he here, the consul would wish you the best in your expedition senator. It is my understanding also that we are soon to hear word of the east, and the situation that is being resolved as we speak.
Servius's clerk, who shall hereby be known as UPS Maximus, prepares to adress the senate again.
Senators, I have been told to present to you the current state of affairs in the east. The messengers report that just days ago senator Numerious Aureolus, as per the consul's strategy, struck a resounding victory at Maronia, retaking the town from the Seleucid occupation force, and securing the local population through simple occupation. Further more, I am to reveal the situation there now for the senate's discussion.
https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5539/theeastbr5.jpg
As you can see, senator Aureolus's victory at Maronia was a strong success.
Senator Coruncanius, north of Maronia, has been asked to deliver the central Seleucid forces there to an early grave. An order for a night attack on the main contingent has been ordered, so as to catch the larger army off guard and prevent them from acquiring reinforcements. The outcome of this battle will determine our next immediate move in the east. But we feel we can rest assured that senator Coruncanius will secure a victory in the name of Rome. In which case he will continue immediately west to crush the smaller army, and senator Aureolus will launch an attack from Maronia to push the last Seleucid army into the cold waters of the straits.
We expect the Thracian army to the north may launch an attack on Tylis or Debeltos, but Tylis should be able to be easily defended by senator Saturninus, and Debeltos would be swiftly retaken.
We are awaiting further news from the front, but we have certainly left our prayers to Mars for good fortune.
GeneralHankerchief
09-16-2006, 05:33
My congratulations to Praetor Tiberius Coruncanius on his impressive victory against the Seleucids.
May they take the hint and leave us alone! :2thumbsup:
Mount Suribachi
09-16-2006, 08:51
I doubt that Senator. Their lands are vast and their manpower is endless. we shall see these battles for many seasons to come.
Nevertheless, I must congratulate Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerius Aureolus on their fine victories.
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