Which Graphics Card?

[Master_Thief]

I'm planning on upgrading my 3 year old pc (Evesham 2600si with 2.6ghz pentium 4, 1 gm RAM, 256 mb radeon 9600, 120gb hard drive, MSI 865pe neo 2 g motherboard). I've already doubled the ram from 512mb to 1gb and i'm looking to get a new graphics card. Problem is I just can't decide what to get. I have an agp slot so that immediately limits my options, and I don't want to spend more than about £120 so all of the new Nvidia cards are out of my reach. I'm seriously considering either a Radeon x850 pro or an x1600 pro. The x850 sounds a lot more powerful but it doesn't support pixel shader 3.0 or HDR. Are these actually necassary nowadays? I'm also not sure about cooling. I've been used to a passively cooled heatsink so I don't want anything too noisy. I quite like the look of the large fans that exhaust air out the back. Do these make much difference or are the ordinary fans ok? I'm also not sure about which company to buy from. Connect 3d seem good but I don;t like the look of the fan on the x1600, gecube are cool but their x1600 doesn't have a vga slot, HIS have good fans but I only really want to buy from www.lowestonweb.com or amazon (as I trust them) and neither of these stock them, sapphire look alright...So many decisions... :help:

[DukeofSerbia]

HIS and Sapphire are the closest ATI's partners. They don't offer nVidia graphic cards.

If you want model Radeon X1600pro with passive cooling try to find Gigabyte or ASUS models. See this http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/VGA/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2212 But it's Gigabyte's PCI-Express model. I don't know if they had AGP version.

And as I know X1600pro models have price around 100$.

[Master_Thief]

Cheers for the help Duke of Serbia. I had a look at the Gigabyte range. Turns out they don't have an agp x1600 but they do have a nice set of x800's. However trying to find a decent place to purchase them is hard and I still want to stick with the websites i'm used to (though i'm tempted by overclockers.co.uk). I was quite impressed by the passive cooling on the Gigabyte cards, but I imagine that very effective air cooling is required to keep such a powerful card cool and i'm not sure i've got that. If anyone knows which is the better card - x1600 or x850, then I would greatly appreciate the help. I'm hedging by bets on the x1600 as it has shader model 3.0 and HDR, and its newer, but i'm still not entirely sure.

[DukeofSerbia]

Master_Thief,

This is Serbian forum of largest and the most popular computer magazine "World of Computer" - Ranking of graphics cards (http://www.sk.co.yu/forum/showthread.php?t=5792).

According to them X850XT PE, X800XT PE, X850XT, X800XT and X800Pro are all faster than X1600Pro. Only X800GT is slower than X1600Pro.:book:

But I will buy rather X1600Pro (which I will done soon). This card has SM 3.0 and HDR and it's newer product. Remeber how ATI has always problems with drivers and newer models are always priority. And newer cards has better AF and AA quality and performancies.

I think that I saw Sapphire model of Radeon X1600Pro. Look here - http://www.sapphiretech.com/uk/products/browseproducts.php?pcat=3 and here http://www.sapphiretech.com/uk/products/products_overview.php?gpid=133&grp=2

[Master_Thief]

Yeah, I think you're right. The x850 pro definately has more power, but the x1600 is far newer and will benefit from driver upgrades. I think that sm 3.0 is becoming more and more essential, as is HDR. I did consider the Sapphire card until amazon sold out, so I think i'll go for the connect3d one which is available from www.lowestonweb.com. The x1600 is also about £13 cheaper (not sure how much that is in Euros) which is a big plus point, especially since i'll only be using it for about a year before I head off to university. As long as it plays Oblivion and MTW 2 then i'm happy. Cheers for all the help ~:cheers:

[DukeofSerbia]

Connect 3D is ok. I found what you think - http://www.lowestonweb.com/Products/DisplayInfoMain.asp?e=C06BC3A9-DA84-4917-9184-046D23B82C0E

The price is £99.98 inc VAT. This card has 512MB which is mostly useless and that's why this model has this price (in Serbia Radeon X1600Pro models have price cca 110 euros and in USA some 100$).

Unfortunatelly HIS doesn't have AGP model of X1600Pro. http://www.hisdigital.com/html/iceq_promo.htm

[Master_Thief]

I think i've finally come to a decision. I've scoured the internet for reviews and comments on the different cards and it seems that the x1600 pro is easily capable of playing games like Oblivion, which is good, however it apparently gets very hot so an extra fan will be required. HIS does produce an AGP version of the x1600 : - http://www.hisdigital.com/html/product_ov.php?id=220&view=yes

In the UK it is available from this address :- http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/ATI_AGP_Graphics_Cards.html

I don't know about Serbia though.

This card would easily solve the heat problem however, at £140+ it seems a little expensive and the 256mb version isn't available. I've made the decision to get the connect3d version. I've already got a connect3d card which has served me well for the past 3 years, so I trust them. I agree with you that the 512mb of memory is pointless but as far as i'm aware it doesn't compromise performance, and it may even be of use in the future if I want to play more demanding games. I would get the Gecube that is available from the same site which has 256mb of memory, but it doesn't have a VGA connection and, although I have an LCD monitor, I can't seem to be able to get the DVI cable to fit. Anyway...once again thanks for your help, I hope the info about HIS is useful for when you get your own graphics card.
:2thumbsup:

[orangat]

Sm3/HDR is overrated and should not be a concern for cheap cards like the 6600gt or the x1600pro and the x1600pro does not play oblivion well. The outdoor scenes will probably chug along at 10-15fps. 128Mb is already plenty for such a low end card and 512Mb is pointless.

I prefer the 7600gs in that price range and its probably alot faster.

[Beirut]

I know the X1600 cards got poor reviews, I read them. Can't remember where though, maybe Tomshardware.com was one.

Best to read up before you put the cash down.

[Master_Thief]

I've read quite a bit. It seems that ATI took a step backwards with the x1300 and x1600 but gave them both sm 3.0 and HDR. It was only the x1800 and x1900 that pushed the boundaries. I'm still slightly torn betweeen going for a card with loads of power (x850) or one with excellent shading (x1600). My concern with the latter is that the card may not be powerful enough to utilise sm 3.0 and HDR in games like Oblivion, in which case it will be a waste of money. If someone here says that sm 3.0 and HDR are a waste of time and that overall power is the key then i'll buy the x850 without a second thought. At the moment its still the x1600. THough I am still tempted to save up £200 and get the Geforce 7800 gs which really is a no brainer if you have that kind of money to spend on a graphics card, but since i'll only be using it properly for just over a year is there much point? Who'd have thought it could be so hard to make a decision... :dizzy2:

[Master_Thief]

Hold on a minute, I didn't see Orangat's post. I s'pose thats decided it really and its pretty much just as I thought. A 7600 gs would be nice but I haven't seen an AGP version. Looks like its the x850 pro then. Its a shame that this card only has 12 pixel pipelines unlike the rest of the x850's which have 16, and its also a shame that its quite an old card, but it is considerably faster and should play Oblivion without any trouble. Having said that, I did see a customer review somewhere that said that Oblivion worked perfectly on the highest settings with an x1600, however it also said that after 3-4 hours it overheated and crashed! I'll probably go for a connect3d x850, are there any problems with connect3d I should be aware of? Thanks for everyones help by the way. ~:wave:

[Geezer57]

Customer reviews on this model x800GTO ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102609 ) indicate good luck in unlocking to 16 pipelines, and it apparently also overclocks well. The price should be lower than the x850 Pro, and hopefully the availability across the pond isn't too bad.

[orangat]

You're just fooling yourself if you think an x1600pro (or 7600gs) is going to play Oblivion well even at low settings. link (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2746&p=7)
Oblivion is not a nice game for people with budget cards.
And oblivion is another oddball game which ATI cards do much better than Nvidia so its a biased benchmark to gauge general performance.The 7600gs has agp versions and the 7600gt will probably have agp versions if you wait. The 7600gt is similar in performance to the crappy agp 7800gs but costs half the price.

The x850xt used to be selling for around the same price as the x800gto/x850pro around here. You should have got one when you had the chance. agp prices for decent cards are screwed up as I predicted correctly.

[Master_Thief]

I think i'll just give up on this whole idea. I just conducted a search for an x800 or an x850 xt but all the ones I found had ridiculous price tags and were being sold by random companies i've never heard of. My backup plan was to get the x850 pro from a website I definately trust called lowestonweb.com. I went on it just now to get the address of the product page so I could hyperlink it here and it turns out they've changed their website layout and also got rid of a load of products including the x850. I could get the same card from amazon for £139 but thats far more than the £113 I would have paid. Ah well, i wont be able to get the new card until the end of the month anyway so I s'pose i'll just keep my eyes peeled. Thanks for the help, there's definately no way i'll be getting the x1600 pro so this discussion has achieved something at least. It might be quite good if this thread was turned into a general discussion for graphics cards and related problems...just a thought.

[DukeofSerbia]

@Master_Thief

Compare Far Cry with HDR (http://www.sk.co.yu/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1451&d=1148542803) and Far Cry with AA (http://www.sk.co.yu/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1452&d=1148542821).

From both old Radeon X8x0 and new X1600 Pro is better GeForce 7600GS. http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/geforce_7600_gs_preview/ Most 7600GS models can be overclocked and be like faster and more expansive 7600GT models. Gainward models are clockable.

Gainward GeForce 7600GS AGP (http://www.gainward.net/products/product.php?products_id=58) - If you can find this card buy it.

This is in Czech review but look at the results. http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=0

Benchmark tests (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=2)

Call of Duty 2 (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=3)

Far Cry (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=4)

F.E.A.R. (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=5)

Half-Life 2 (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=6)

Oblivion (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=7)

Quake 4 (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=8)

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=9)

Conclusion (http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7008&Itemid=44&limit=1&limitstart=10)

[Beirut]

The 7600gt is similar in performance to the crappy agp 7800gs but costs half the price.



Hey! I happen to like my crappy AGP 7800GS card. It allows me to use the advanced Shader 3 options in my flightsims (and other games), gives me great graphics, good FPS, and has a quiet fan.

So there! ~;p

[Master_Thief]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=13357&GroupID=1234

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=14739&GroupID=1263

http://www.savastore.com/productinfo/product.aspx?product_id=10286177&catalog_name=Savastore&page=customerreviews&pid=207

http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog/BFG_nv_agp.html

Any good?

I think that any card will be better than my 9600 256mb, and since that is capable of playing Oblivion on low settings so even an x1600 should be quite capable. It sounds like its quite easy to unlock the extra pipelines in the x850 pro so I might give that a shot, hopefully savastore wont go removing it from their website. Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?

[orangat]

Hey! I happen to like my crappy AGP 7800GS card. It allows me to use the advanced Shader 3 options in my flightsims (and other games), gives me great graphics, good FPS, and has a quiet fan.

So there! ~;p
;)
I remembered you were insisting that the 7800gs was a good buy for a new build. And now we might have something that comes close for half the price.

[orangat]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=13357&GroupID=1234
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=14739&GroupID=1263
http://www.savastore.com/productinfo/product.aspx?product_id=10286177&catalog_name=Savastore&page=customerreviews&pid=207
http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog/BFG_nv_agp.html
Any good?

I think that any card will be better than my 9600 256mb, and since that is capable of playing Oblivion on low settings so even an x1600 should be quite capable. It sounds like its quite easy to unlock the extra pipelines in the x850 pro so I might give that a shot, hopefully savastore wont go removing it from their website. Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?

Get the x850pro before its sold out. 2nd choice would be the bfg 7600gs.

[Beirut]

;)
I remembered you were insisting that the 7800gs was a good buy for a new build. And now we might have something that comes close for half the price.

I never said you were wrong, I merely said I was half right. :balloon2:

[orangat]

lol Only after some severe arm twisting to bring you into the light.

This is what you originaly said thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63077)-

"As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available."

[Geezer57]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -
<STUFF DELETED>
Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?
I too would recommend the Connect3D X850PRO over the other choices.

As far as your system RAM, it should have no significant effect on your video card performance. Should your motherboard support it, and you choose to upgrade to PC3200 speed memory, you might see a very small boost in game performance. But I doubt it would be significant, outside of in benchmarks, and probably not worth the money spent.

[Master_Thief]

Well I recently doubled my RAM so I doubt i'll go changing it all for pc3200. Its a relief that I haven't wasted my money. I think that the x850 pro is at the top of list at the moment, though I found a company based near to where I live who are willing to source requested products and quote prices. I decided to see if they could find an x850 xt and quote a price, so I may end up getting that (mainly because of the better cooling fan, but also because I cant guarantee being able to unlock the extra 4 pipelines in the pro).

[DukeofSerbia]

If you can find buy Gainward GeForce 7600GS AGP.:2thumbsup:

[Beirut]

lol Only after some severe arm twisting to bring you into the light.

This is what you originaly said thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63077)-

"As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available."


(Builds voodoo doll of Orangat and places it nest to tape deck playing Celine Dion on endless loop.)

I agreed to agree with you, saw the flashlight you so delicately blasted me in the eyes with, and said that AGP cards, if the price was right, were still good cards to buy.

Just so you know, I'm looking at a PCI-E setup (with a 7950 card) to fly with. So if you can get the Celine-ringing out of your ears in a month or two, I might ask you a few questions.

[Master_Thief]

Celine Dion...Ouch!

Anyway, my hunt for the x850 xt was in vain, and the Gainward 7600 is proving illusive as well. So I think the x850 pro is my best bet. Thanks for all the help everyone :2thumbsup: ~:cheers: ~;p

[Geezer57]

Master Thief: hope you get one that unlocks to 16 pipelines ... cheers for your new toy! :laugh4:

[Master_Thief]

Thanks. Annoying thing is I wont be able to get it for another few days. But drinks all round anyway ~:cheers:

[Master_Thief]

Hey all. I still haven't got the card but I will once I know one more thing. The x850 pro requires a minimum of a 300w psu but recommends a higher version. I have a 300w psu. Will the computer still run properly even thogh I only just pass the minimum requirement or will it have bad side effects, because if so then its game over for me and my new card: I need the computer to work perfectly as its for work as well as play.

[orangat]

With the advent of the 7600gt for agp, the 7600gs is obsolete and redundant. You should spend 10GBP on top of what you were going to pay for the x850pro and get the agp 7600gt from overclockers uk for GBP123 after vat.

[Master_Thief]

You sure do like the 7600 gt! But i'm going to stick with the x850 pro. It has a better fan, processes more textures per clock, and has a bigger memory bandwidth (34.56 gb/s as opposed to 22.4 for the 7600), plus it isn't bundled with Serious Sam 2 which has got to be a good thing! Anyway, if anyone can answer my previous question then i'll be eternally greatful.

[Geezer57]

Hey all. I still haven't got the card but I will once I know one more thing. The x850 pro requires a minimum of a 300w psu but recommends a higher version. I have a 300w psu. Will the computer still run properly even thogh I only just pass the minimum requirement or will it have bad side effects, because if so then its game over for me and my new card: I need the computer to work perfectly as its for work as well as play.
If your current 300w power supply is a good one, you should be fine. However, there's a lot of cheap stuff out there masquerading as quality, so be sure to monitor your machine closely after installing the new card for the first time. One nice thing about staying with the ATI brand is that the drivers for your new card will be compatible with your old one - if you have any suspicious behavior, you can always yank out the new card and put the old one back in. Then you can go shopping for a good new power supply, should that prove necessary, and still keep using your computer.

[Master_Thief]

Cheers. That sounds like pretty good advice. I think my power supply is pretty good though, since the rest of the computer is excellent. Another thing: the fan on my psu is covered in dust. I don't suppose you know how to clean this (and also how to clean the inside of a computer in general)?

[Master_Thief]

This is my power supply - http://www.fsp-group.com.tw/english/1_product/2_detail.asp?mainid=1&fid=52&proid=212

Its not cheap and crappy is it?

[Geezer57]

Hard to tell much from the published specifications - they're all proprietary to each manufacturer anyway, so can vary a lot from one manufacturer to another. Seems to be sound enough - I've seen some with a little more amperage on the 12v rail. But much of what determines the "quality" of a power supply is largely subjective - is it heavy, does it use good brand capacitors, etc.
I'd just try the new video card with the current P/S, if it acts up, go shopping. :idea2:

[orangat]

You sure do like the 7600 gt! But i'm going to stick with the x850 pro. It has a better fan, processes more textures per clock, and has a bigger memory bandwidth (34.56 gb/s as opposed to 22.4 for the 7600), plus it isn't bundled with Serious Sam 2 which has got to be a good thing! Anyway, if anyone can answer my previous question then i'll be eternally greatful.

One of the quads is disabled. Its definitely has a lower texture fillrate compared to the 7600gt. The bottom line is that the 7600gt is faster and runs cooler. The only reason to get the x850pro is to unlock it.

[Master_Thief]

I'm pretty sure the connect3d x850 pro is unlockable, as there are plenty of contented customers out there who have said so. However, you are beginning to swing me towards the 7600 gt Orangat. The only thing which really puts me off is the fact that the Leadtek is so butt ugly. Just look at these picks of the x850 pro - http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2342082&Tab=1&NoMapp=0

Thats a stupid reason I know, but also the increased price is abit off-putting. £10 isn't much, but its still more, and with that amount I culd buy a 12cm fan instead. It isn't me who will be paying, so the price is more of a concern than it would have been if it were my money. Anyway, when I get the card (whichever one it is) I will follow your advice, Geezer47, on what to do about the PSU. Once again (and hopefully for the last time :laugh4: ), thanks everyone.:2thumbsup:

[orangat]

I don't 'like' the 7600gt. Unlike many others in this forum, I don't recommend components just because I own one or 'like' one.

I recommended the 7600gt because its faster than the 7800gs (albeit by a hair) and the x850pro. And more importantly it consumes relatively little power. Whereas the x8xx series were the biggest power hogs in their day. Whats the point of saving 10BGP when you have an old borderline psu?

[Master_Thief]

Fair point. But according to the Leadtek website, the 7600 gt also requires a minimum of 300w for the psu. I'll just continue weighing up the options. I think either way there will be another round of drinking on this thread when I get the card, whichever one it will be.

[orangat]

Manufacturer websites are unreliable guides on psu guidelines. I had found that the video card manufacturer recommendations to be arbitrary and wrong at times. In the case of the 7600gt, the 300W recommendation is arbitrary because there are practically no psus below 300W these days and anything lower is probably not atx12v compliant.

Since the 7600gt consumes only half the power of the x850xt and power supplies degrade over time, the 7600gt is a prudent choice.

[Master_Thief]

Ok I think you've nearly convinced me. Just a few more questions. How do you know so much about this card? I've looked for reviews everywhere and I can't find a thing? Secondly, why is it called Winfast? An d finally is the fan any good? It looks noisy, ugly, and it chucks all the hot air back into the case. The x850 pro has a nice big fan that exhausts it all out the back (suuposedly). Or is the fan not the important issue here?

[Geezer57]

Master Thief, there's a good roundup of midrange cards over at Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2812&p=1) that includes the 7600GT. They even included factory-overclocked cards, and got respectable numbers.

[Master_Thief]

Alright, i'm convinced. It is a pretty good card.

[frogbeastegg]

The card should be here tomorrow, at long last. :grumble: Just in time for me to work day after day, all day, so I barely have time to do anything with the computer. Delays are evil :furious3:

So it's finally time to ask about drivers; I'm years out of date with nVidea drivers, and don't know which is generally the best set to aim for. Official, or one of the unofficials? If someone could give me the general view, and then aim me at the best current set, that would be nice.

[Geezer57]

I'm quite fond of the Omega Drivers (http://www.omegadrivers.net/), which alteady contain many tweaks and optimizations. Just install and go!

[Beirut]

The card should be here tomorrow, at long last.

:wideeyed: Whajaget? Whajaget?


So it's finally time to ask about drivers; I'm years out of date with nVidea drivers, and don't know which is generally the best set to aim for. Official, or one of the unofficials? If someone could give me the general view, and then aim me at the best current set, that would be nice.

Drivers are sometimes game dependent (or is that the other way around?).

For instance, I'm using drivers for my Nvidia card that best suit the Il2 flightsim series. But these drivers are neither the newest nor the best available for most games, just for IL2.

[frogbeastegg]

I got the wrong thread. I meant to post in my own topic. Oops. That's me and my several tabs doing several things at once again :sigh: Would be nice if there was a way to move this accidental hijack over …

I got the AGP 7600gt. Drivers are games dependent, but usually there's one set which stands out as being particularly good for most games, just as there are occasional sets which are notorious for having problems. Usually. I just want a decent set to install at the start, so I don't have to go and fetch another set and update them after the installation. No idea what drivers will come with the card, but from my experience with my last three cards the bundled drivers are likely to be a bit outdated and not so hot. If it were an ATI card I’d know what I want; I haven’t looked at nvidea drivers since I replaced my old geforce 3.

[Beirut]

I got the AGP 7600gt.

:disappointed: Oh... you got the 7600 card Orangat was talking about. Not the 7800 I was recommending.

That's ok, that's ok. I know he's smarter than me... I'm sure it's a very good card and you'll enjoy it a great deal.


I'll, uh... be in the Backroom drunk thread if you're looking for me... Sniff.

[Master_Thief]

Don't worry about the hijacking. You've simply revived my thread which isn't such a bad thing, especially as i'm finally on the verge of ordering the new card i've been pondering over for weeks. Its the same one as yours, so let me know what its like if you could. Cheers.

[Master_Thief]

Two posts in the same minute. How did we manage that?! Don't worry Beirut, beer sooths all wounds.

[frogbeastegg]

:Passes Beirut a nice cup of sake: You nearly had me persuaded, and in fact one of the main reasons I chose the 7600gt is because it was so similar to a card you are obviously very happy with. In the end the deciding factor between the two was the cost; very similar, and with one £80 cheaper. I'm really eager to see the kind of difference you described when you made the swap from your own 7800 pro. I've even taken a few screenshots so I can compare :feels a bit sad now:

Master Thief: I shall.

[Beirut]

In the end the deciding factor between the two was the cost; very similar, and with one £80 cheaper. I'm really eager to see the kind of difference you described when you made the swap from your own 7800 pro. I've even taken a few screenshots so I can compare :feels a bit sad now:

80 pounds cheaper? That's a considrable sum.

In all truth, if Orangat say it's a good card, then more than likely it's a good card. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Looking forward to your positive review. :2thumbsup:

[DukeofSerbia]

I got the AGP 7600gt.

How you found it? Only model in market is from Leadtek and it's impossible to buy it! On newegg.com is always out of stock.



I'm really eager to see the kind of difference you described when you made the swap from your own 7800 pro.


Such card doesn't exist. Only 7800GS for AGP. nVidia never had Pro in names of cards, only ATI.

[Master_Thief]

Froggy got the card from www.overclockers.co.uk which is a british website, though it is possible to have the product shipped to countries in Europe. I've also ordered the same card from there. I haven't found it anywhere else. I'm not sure if Serbia is covered by the company but if you're interested it might be worth checking out.

[frogbeastegg]

Beirut and I both had Radeon 9800 pro 128MBs.

The card arrived on Tuesday. I fitted it that evening, a smooth enough process barring the fact I didn't know that it takes a bit of time for the card to start working, so a black monitor does not invariably mean the card isn't in place properly. I didn't get to test it until yesterday morning, a quick 20 minutes before work. The results were ... disappointing. The driver install must be bad. I'm using the latest officla drivers. It did crash during my first attempt to install, but the subsequent install over the top of the unfinished install went fine; I had it overwrite everything.

I got glitches in both games I tried; black speckles in CivCity: Rome, and the occasional funky red/orange/flame coloured sprite infantry in BI, along with a unit of invisible cavalry. I was using the Goth mod, but I'd been playing it with my old card without such issues, so I know it relates to the new one. BI did look better and performance smoothed out nicely, but it wasn't the big leap I had expected and still I have to leave some settings turned off/down. CivCity: Rome still looked ugly, though I was using a slightly lower resolution than my LCD's native one because 1280X1024 is bugged. That wouldn't have helped.

Got to be the drivers. Got to be. Else I've been sent a 7600GS in disguise.

Oh – and for those who said I couldn’t have AGP and PCI Express slots, I do. One big white one, and two smaller ones. If only I had thought to check the board; I had forgotten the motherboard has all the slots labelled with nice useful lettering.

Anyway, I'm going to try removing and reinstalling those drivers.

[Geezer57]

Froggy, new graphics cards often need to seated, unseated, reseated many times before they make good connection with the contacts in the expansion slot. There's often oxidation on those contacts, and the seating/reseating process cleans that off.

For your driver problems, I recommend Driver Cleaner Pro (http://www.drivercleaner.net/professional.php). It's free, has good instructions, and works well to eliminate any "residue" of old alternative (ATI) drivers.
I also like the Omega Drivers (http://www.omegadrivers.net/nvidia.php), they have many optimizations already performed on them (you can choose between Quality and Performance installs).

[Cebei]

How long do you think current 1gb sli nvidia 7950s will last? Can I still be able to play newer games 4 years later?

[x-dANGEr]

Gah poor Froggy.. Discouraging news.. (BUt.. I'm sure I will get a huge leap if I change to anything from my 5200.. Right..)

P.S. Please say right 0-i

[Geezer57]

How long do you think current 1gb sli nvidia 7950s will last? Can I still be able to play newer games 4 years later?
If the past is any indication, you'll be struggling to keep up with newer games four years from now.

Four years ago, Pentium 4 Northwoods (w/ single channel memory controller i845G chipsets) were fighting it out with AMD Athlon XP's on NForce2 mobo's, mostly in the 2.5/2.8Ghz performance rating range. 512Mb of RAM was considered a lot. The newly-released ATI Radeon 9700 Pro was the just-crowned King-of-the-Hill (see article: http://www.tomshardware.com/2002/08/19/ati_radeon_9700_pro_/index.html).

A setup like that, without upgrades, would be pretty handicapped today. Still fine for general-purpose computing, and playing older game titles, but outdated for the newest generation games. I like to step a bit back from the bleeding-edge hardware, and focus instead on less-expensive alternatives that still offer almost as much performance. Instead of two GeForce 7950GS2's at over $1000, why not select a pair of 7900GS's for about $400, and put the savings in the bank. Then in two years or so, you'll have an upgrade fund available for whatever "best bang for the buck" hardware is being offered. :2thumbsup:

[Master_Thief]

I just installed and tested my new 7600 gt. It runs like a dream. Plays Oblivion and Battlefield 2 on full graphics and has also had the effect of decreasing the CPU temperature and subsequently reducing the CPU fan speed (though only by a tiny amount). Oblivion still crashed after playing, but hey, thats just Oblivion and I love it.

I'm sorry to hear about your card froggy. I haven't tried RTW yet so i've yet to see how that fares. I used the drivers from the CD that was provided and they seem to work fine. Perhaps you should give them a go. Good Luck!:2thumbsup:

Oh yeah I just remembered. I did take a look at the latest Nvidia drivers and one of the main updates was support for the 7600 GS AGP card. This leads me to suspect that because the Leadtek card is the only AGP 7600 GT available, their drivers are the only ones that support it. Whether this is true or not I don't know. If you do use the provided drivers a message will appear stating something about them not being tested for Windows XP. Just ignore this and it should work fine.

[Lemur]

Four years ago, Pentium 4 Northwoods (w/ single channel memory controller i845G chipsets) were fighting it out with AMD Athlon XP's on NForce2 mobo's, mostly in the 2.5/2.8Ghz performance rating range. 512Mb of RAM was considered a lot. The newly-released ATI Radeon 9700 Pro was the just-crowned King-of-the-Hill.

A setup like that, without upgrades, would be pretty handicapped today.
What the ... hey! You just described my rig! Except that the Radeon was added a year after I built it. Holy moly. And you're right, I was considered a crass fellow for putting a gig of RAM in it at the time.

Five years go by so quickly ...

[Ice]

Five years go by so quickly ...

If find every 2-3 years is a good guage, if you have the funds to buy a new one.

[Cebei]

If the past is any indication, you'll be struggling to keep up with newer games four years from now.

Four years ago, Pentium 4 Northwoods (w/ single channel memory controller i845G chipsets) were fighting it out with AMD Athlon XP's on NForce2 mobo's, mostly in the 2.5/2.8Ghz performance rating range. 512Mb of RAM was considered a lot. The newly-released ATI Radeon 9700 Pro was the just-crowned King-of-the-Hill (see article: http://www.tomshardware.com/2002/08/19/ati_radeon_9700_pro_/index.html).

A setup like that, without upgrades, would be pretty handicapped today. Still fine for general-purpose computing, and playing older game titles, but outdated for the newest generation games. I like to step a bit back from the bleeding-edge hardware, and focus instead on less-expensive alternatives that still offer almost as much performance. Instead of two GeForce 7950GS2's at over $1000, why not select a pair of 7900GS's for about $400, and put the savings in the bank. Then in two years or so, you'll have an upgrade fund available for whatever "best bang for the buck" hardware is being offered. :2thumbsup:

Hello Geezer,

Many thanks for the suggestion. I was worried that the current laptop motherboards wouldn't support future graphics cards as there will be a some power gap between current and future gpus. Is there a motherboard you could suggest that will serve that need?

[doc_bean]

If find every 2-3 years is a good guage, if you have the funds to buy a new one.

That's what I used to think, but it seems hardware doesn't move as fast as it used to, and software (games) don't use full hardware potential until after a pretty long time, so 4-5 years is becoming viable for a game system.

[Lemur]

If find every 2-3 years is a good guage, if you have the funds to buy a new one.
I don't know, I didn't have problems until this year, with the advent of Battlefield 2, FEAR and Oblivion. Up until then, my Athlon with Nforce2 special sauce was humming along just fine. 2001 was a good year, know what I mean? And I added some thing as as I went along. In '03 I swapped out for a Barton core Athlon (happy overclocking!) and a Radeon 9700 pro (the price came down! Yay!).

With some minor facelifts, I've milked the same rig for five years -- almost six. Of course, I was lucky in that DX9 didn't change much in that time. The new DX10 thing has me unhappy and nervous, but I'm thinking perhaps I can ignore it for at least three years.

I've made up my mind. It's gonna be a DX9 rig, but I'll put in a bigger PS than I need now, just in case I want to swap to a power-hungry DX10 card in '08 or '09.

[Geezer57]

Hello Geezer,

Many thanks for the suggestion. I was worried that the current laptop motherboards wouldn't support future graphics cards as there will be a some power gap between current and future gpus. Is there a motherboard you could suggest that will serve that need?
Ahhh, laptops - that introduces a whole new level of confusion into the discussion. NVidia has their GeForce Go series, ATI their Mobility Radeon series, some of which fit into a proposed open standard (based on PCIe) called MXM (see info here: http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html). But that standard hasn't really been widely adopted yet - it's still very much up to the individual notebook manufacturer. And you can be sure that cards intended for desktops will not fit.

At any rate, everything I wrote about pertains to desktops - it may (or may not) apply to laptops. You'll need to do more research, if you intend to purchase a mobile platform. Laptop graphics cards tend to be clocked to lower frequencies, have less RAM, and can only run dual cards together in a few, very select, platforms (see Alienware's offering here: http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Aurora_mALX/aurora-m_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-LT-AURORA-M-ALX&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT).
Of course, it'll set you back about $4500 (whew!). As time goes on, however, the trend towards interchangeability will improve, so MXM should be a good bet for allowing future upgrades.

[Reenk Roink]

Here's what I'll be picking up in October, for the upcoming group of games I'm interested in (after quite a long lull going back to Rome): BFG Tech GeForce 7600GT for $150 ($120 with rebate) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143049)

[Ice]

Here's what I'll be picking up in October, for the upcoming group of games I'm interested in (after quite a long lull going back to Rome): BFG Tech GeForce 7600GT for $150 ($120 with rebate) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143049)

How is ur desktop treating you at uni?

[Reenk Roink]

It's not too bad actually, I've got it setup for the maximum space saving efficiency. The bulky CPU is just under the desk, and I have a LCD monitor so it's cool. Plus, with no TV in the room, there's more free space.

[Ice]

It's not too bad actually, I've got it setup for the maximum space saving efficiency. The bulky CPU is just under the desk, and I have a LCD monitor so it's cool. Plus, with no TV in the room, there's more free space.

Where are you living anyway? I'm up at Baits I.

I thinking about moving my desktop from my room at home to my dorm room. Right now I'm using a laptop, but I REALLY miss gaming.

[Reenk Roink]

South Quad for me.

As for moving you desktop in, it depends.

If you have an LCD monitor, it shouldn't be hard to manage on your desk.

I would say go for it. I'm in a standard double, and we have everything but a TV, and plenty of space. Of course, a laptop is a lot easier for college, taking it to classes and such, but I thought a laptop not worth the money. I don't use it to play games much at the moment, in fact, I've only played EB on/off during the entire summer, but since a few games I'm interested in are coming out this winter, that'll change.

[frogbeastegg]

I've reinstalled the same set of drivers (and windows. Long story. It had been ailing for some time and finally got too glitchy to be tolerated) and there's some improvement, at least in GothMod BI. Now it's performing a bit more like I expected ... except in cities; I still have to have buildings to medium and turn off some of the more intensive eye candy options like shadows off/down, and still it is a bit jerky. I probably need to go even lower, which feels wrong with this set up. But on open fields I can have antistrophic filtering on in the nvidia control panel, everything set to max save grass (my preference; it's off) with huge units and massive armies and it's smooth. This seems a bit strange to me, and I can't say I'm terribly happy - city battles are tedious enough already without being ugly and laggy. Still, at least there aren't any funky sprites or invisible cavalry, and I'm not needing to use near identical settings to my old Radeon.

Dunno if I'm expecting too much from this card, or if something still isn't right.

I haven't had chance to try any other games yet. It took me several days to get Windows reinstalled thanks to a succession of unwanted surprises.

[Master_Thief]

All graphics cards seem to have games that they really dont like, and I think that Rome is just one such game for the 7600 gt. I've tested my card with a number of games and Rome is the only game so far that has seen a decrease in performance (the fps is higher, but the shadows are messed up and the trees become covered with white boxes when viewed at a long distance). I think i've come to the conclusion that the 7600 gt is the kind of card that likes demanding games. Rome really isn't demanding by todays standards so it gets bored and under performs. Games like Oblivion on the other hand are exactly what it likes so it fully commits itself. This basically means that it will love Medieval 2 and, when you play that, you'll almost certainly be glad of your purchase.

[Cebei]

This is probably a difficult question, but how many years later will 1GB be considered as "minimum requirement" for the graphics cards?

[x-dANGEr]

Four/Five years I'd say.

[tibilicus]

well 64mb to around 128mb has been the minimum for around 4 years now so I would think of that. ~;)

[frogbeastegg]

All graphics cards seem to have games that they really dont like, and I think that Rome is just one such game for the 7600 gt.
I think I begin to agree, now I've had chance to test the card with a few other games. Other than RTW the only problem I've found is with CivCity: Rome; the black splodge glitches from my previous testing remain. However overall the game is looking and perfoming much better; now I am definitely getting bump mapping and the other fancy effects, which I wasn't with my first install. I put the glitches down to the game not liking this particular driver. Hehe, it's ironic - I brought the game now instead of waiting for it to be patched first in part to test out this card.

Roll on the M2TW demo :rubs hands together:

[Master_Thief]

Glad to see you've finally had some success :2thumbsup: . M2TW is going to be so damn good. I've been rubbing my hands together with anticipation so much i've started a small fire in my lap :oops:. But no worries cos i'm just so excited nothings going to bring me down...though a pint will sure help ease the pain..."bartender, another round please" ~:cheers:

Enjoy you're new card froggy. ;)

[Gealai]

Seems that a lot of guys are happy about the XFX GeForce 7900 Gs

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/384/1/

http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=868&cid=2

Looks like a great 199$ card..

The PcMag choses the GT version by XFX for their complete bang-for-buck PC

[Crandaeolon]

Found a Connect3D Radeon X850 Pro for 149e, and stress testing shows that it flashed without a problem to XT PE specs. I'd call that a bargain. ~:cheers:

Edit: For anyone else trying this, be sure you get the Vivo edition of X800 / X850 pro. In other editions, the disabled pipelines are blocked in hardware - they can't be unlocked with a bios flash.

I agree that Nvidia cards are generally a better choice for upgrading an AGP system, unless you feel like trying your luck.

Edit: MTW2 is probably a very texture-intensive game, so going Nvidia might be the better choice here. Oh well, we'll see.

[Master_Thief]

Yeah, I'm loving my 7600 gt at the moment and would recommend it to anyone upgrading an AGP card (though not if they only want to play RTW).

[MSB]

If I had to suggest one lovely good value, low budget graphics card I would recommend the Nvidia Geforce 6200 256MB. It gives a reasonable quality of graphics and it's not very expensive. It's a perfect balance between good graphics and good value.

But, if you have a (much) higher budget I would recommend that you wait for the Geforce 8800 to come out. It will have Shader Model 4 and a much higher clock speed compared to any previous cards. However it will sacrifice all budget requirements for performance and visual quality. I'm no expert, but I would say it could cost up to £500!

[doc_bean]

Gamespot just did a videocard round-up, people looking for a new card might be interested in checking it out.

Be sure to read what it says at the top of the high end card page: they won't future proof your system. I keep saying it too, but few people seem to be willing to listen...

[Dutch_guy]

Gamespot just did a videocard round-up, people looking for a new card might be interested in checking it out.

Be sure to read what it says at the top of the high end card page: they won't future proof your system. I keep saying it too, but few people seem to be willing to listen...

Link would be great :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup:

:balloon2:

[doc_bean]

It's not like it's hard to find. (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6156859/p-6.html?tag=topslot;action;4&om_act=convert&click=topslot)

[Dutch_guy]

It's not like it's hard to find. (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6156859/p-6.html?tag=topslot;action;4&om_act=convert&click=topslot)

Laziness I guess, heh :laugh3:

Thanks anyway.

:balloon2:

[sharrukin]

I just got a Radeon X1800 GTO (cheap), instead of an x1600, and was wondering if this is a good card. The numbering sequence doesn't seem to indicate a better card, as I have seen people say that the x850 is better than the x1600. Is the X1800 GTO a decent card?

[Crandaeolon]

It's one of the best cards of the $200-250 price range, I think.

[Dutch_guy]

Good, exactly the thread I was looking for.

Well, it's that time my fellow orgahs, I'm going to replace my prehistoric videocard.

For those curious to what I have now, it's basically a GeForce 4 MX with AGP (you could buy one of these, at least 4year old, cards for about 20 Euro's now - maybe even less for all I know)

Obviously, for the newer games I'm going to need a better card, and have decided to pick one up.

Now I'm specifically looking at the AGP version of the GeForce 7600 GT. A good card, reasonably priced, which can last me at least a year or so depending of course on how well Vista and DirectX 10 are received. Anyway, I do have a couple of questions concerning this card, and videocards in general.

First of all, I have come across various variations of this card, a XFX version and a ''normal'' one (meaning the 7600 GT, without the XFX before the name)
Now what does the XFX mean exactly ? Is it even important to take into account ?

Secondly, I know my motherboard is an AGP version 3.0 (8x), but are there any other things to take into account when buying a vcard ? I have seen the word PSU (power supply unit) mentioned quite a few times, and I imagine it is of a significant importance. Would my standard Dimension (yes, yes... a Dell), which has a standard 250 W, be able to run the A7600 GT - or am I going to have to lay down another 40 euro's for a decent PSU device.

Last one; is installing a vcard or a PSU device a hard thing to do - I'm asking since I've yet to open my pc case...

Thanks in advance guys.:2thumbsup:

:balloon2:

[naut]

I'd advise against nVidia for one reason,

nVidia + Total War = Problems

:smash:

[Shaun]

Actually, nVidia + TW does not = problems, if anything its ATi + TW that equals problems, well with MTW2 anyway. The fact that MTW2 is enabled for SLI but not crossfire shows that CA must prefer nVidia over Radeon. Although one X1950XTX (which is what I have) is enough to handle any game of today and tomorrow.

[Master_Thief]

I'd advise against nVidia for one reason,

nVidia + Total War = Problems

:smash:

Really? My nvidia plays the M2 demo without any problems at all, and Rome works very well (though admittedly I do occasionally get white squares instead of trees). However for anyone with pci express ATI is probably the best one to go for. I simply bought an nvidia out of necessity, but it is damn good.