CA foot missile bug fix and more!

[DARTH_VADER]

Finally!

Only now ...in the end....this came to a fix. But it is never late than never.
During my tests in my preparation for my patch 8.1 for DarthMod (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=71) I came to some very valuable knowledge about the usage of some stats in EDU file

-stat_charge_dist
(Beside its common sense usage it is actually the value given to foot missile units to determine the distance from where they can begin the AI projectile attack approach!)
-stat_fire_delay
(Its value is interpreted more by me like the median of AI number of ticks to calculate the cycle between 2 attacks hard coded AI routines(projectile or melee)

At the moment I write these lines I have not much time to write a lot of things so I will come later here for more specifications.

So about the foot missile defense fix...

-Archers/Slingers need

-stat_charge_dist=approx double and less (For example if range is 120 then set to 200-250), the value of the range of their weapon. Generally give value>=range of weapon
-stat_fire_delay=zero (=important!...CA gave some value here in BI units with devastating effect to the AI.Do NOT give even minus value here!)

-Javelineers need
-stat_charge_dist=Can be set to a really large value (5x-7x their missile range>=range of weapon)
-stat_fire_delay=minus (-50000) - (-70000) ...this makes them fire in very good and realistic rate against approaching opponent. You can leave them and they will do their work effectively now even in corners of their map (They will not be trapped now!!!)

-Siege weapons need
-stat_charge_dist=range of their weapon
-stat_fire_delay=zero (Important!)


What is the outcome in all this?
When AI now defends will effectively use its foot missile units than wander with them.
And not only this...the general behaviour of the units is a lot better when used by the AI. It seems that the stat_fire_delay value helps them to group units more distinctively and not mess them all together.

Not only this!

-General Cavalry settings
-stat_charge_dist=in my mod I give very large setting in this (approx 100 - 300 m) according to kind of cavalry.
-stat_fire_delay=minus large values (approx (-90000) - (-450000!)

Specifications:
-(Mobile light cavalry / with projectiles)
-stat_charge_dist=(150-200)
-stat_fire_delay=minus large values (approx (-150000) - (-350000) (according to armour)

-(medium/heavy cavalry )
-stat_charge_dist=(90-400) (In BI lancers I give the max, in very heavy cavalry with much staying power I give the min.)
-stat_fire_delay=minus large values (approx (-90000) - (-450000) (according to armour and character of unit)
For melee cavalry I give approx (-90000) - (-190000) for special elite units with much charge I give above -200000, and....
most importantly!....general cavalry units get the max in the whole game...I give -350000 in RTW and -450000 in BI.
This makes them almost impossible to catch the AI general to a fight as he cleverly engages and disengages.

-(Elephants)
-stat_charge_dist=approx 100 (may change this to get the exact value of their projectile range if they have...will test)
-stat_fire_delay=approx 100000. Not only this makes them heavy enough to change directions all the time but makes their missile tower units
to fire more realistically decisive volleys...you must increase their projectile attack after this .

-(Chariots)
-stat_charge_dist=approx 200
-stat_fire_delay=approx 100000. Not only this makes them heavy enough to change directions all the time but makes their missile to fire more realistically decisive volleys...you must increase their projectile attack after this .


-Melee Infantry
-Short weapons (sword-axes-short spears etc.)
-stat_charge_dist=varies (For example I give to barbarian units large values to have a realistic thunderous charge effect and smaller to heavier civilized units.)
-stat_fire_delay=fixed 5000 to all (helps AI to group units together and not do isolations..for example I gave the same value even to germanic
phalanxes bcs all their units must have the same or else AI groups them individually and messes things up.If you give minus value the unit becomes to behave like crazy skirmisher and does not melee too much. But can be used maybe for certain troop types like woad warriors)

-Phalanxes
-stat_charge_dist=1-2 (very small value for fix of the tossing effect and also for the AI to stop wandering with them). They get more static.Avoid giving zero or minus values bcs it creates unorthodox phalanx moving and crazy single troop isolation moving constantly in front when in melee
-stat_fire_delay=55000 - 100000 or more. (Large value which actually becomes an advantage since the phalanx must stay in formation to be
effective than point too many times to many directions...watch AI phalanx approach now....)
For best effect give to each faction available phalanx unit the SAME value for better AI grouping

-Precursor units (Like Romans)
-stat_charge_dist=range of their weapon
-stat_fire_delay=-55000 approx....

This setting is so clever..the precursor AI units gain more mobility, fire more effectively, charge sooner...they do not stall as before!



That is all for now...
I will release my open beta DarthMod 8.1 patch (2) probably today to see the settings in action.

Uploaded ...here it is Download (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61757)


I will not reply to any PM according this matter.(Cannot tell the same things multiple times. All deserve to know combined)

I will reply only here (to those who can post here) and in my forum in here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1199333#post1199333)

[DimeBagHo]

I ran a few tests with phalanx units. It looked to me like a charge distance of 1 caused the phalanx units to become more disorderly (the units themselves, not the phalanx line). I think the reason is that when they change direction, some of the men run a little to catch up with their position in the formation, but the short charge distance causes them to fall behind. Just increasing the charge distance to 2 seems to almost eliminate the effect, and at 3 it isn't noticable.

This could actually be useful for represnting the poor training of levy units. They should have a harder time keeping their formation when maneuvering.

[Epistolary Richard]

Thanks for this detailed testing, Darth I look forward to seeing the results. :thumbsup:

[DARTH_VADER]

Those who want to implement must first play test battles in my DarthMod 8.1 open beta as is and then try their variations to each mod.
This will bring you the best results I believe.
Bcs mine is tested and plays fine and yours maybe needs adjusting or you do starting mistakes and so you will believe that it will not work and drop it out.

@DimeBagHo:
Valuable testing of yours...but think I will keep mine. I know also that zero makes this fully visible..the messing

@Epistolary Richard:
I think this must be implemented to all mods. It is this serious.

[Burns]

So, basically can this fix the problems archers have in BI where they refuse to shoot?

[DARTH_VADER]

Yes...as a matter of fact this solves the problem!

[Borsook]

While increasing -stat_charge_dist as advertised here did give some benefits it also made AI charge with missle units a lot (this is esp true for horse archers, but foot ones too).

[Dol Guldur]

I am still having trouble seeing what improvement is made to the foot archers - they still often go merrily walking into my own archers, walking way past th epoint they should have fired, then spreading out and shooting off a few volleys before all 200 are killed by my 80

Darth's settings obviously must involve more than what is above. I think, to be fair, I have seen an improvement at times - but there is more to it than what is said above. Has anyone extracted this?

[fallen851]

So this fixes the archer bug in 1.5 RTW where archers don't shoot at units with high armor? Or is this simply intended to enhance the AI so it uses archers more effectively? Or is this BI specific?

[fallen851]

Can anyone answer my above questions, or have we got more testing to confirm this works?

[wlesmana]

I tried it with RTW:Alex and it doesn't work. My archers when facing high armor units end up charging from their long distance. It's pretty funny, but it doesn't force them to use their bows.

As for the rest, I can't see much difference so I can't comment.

Note that I'm not using Darth formations.

[fallen851]

Yeah this fix... does nothing.

[Dol Guldur]

Yep, no difference in BI or Alex. vanilla but Darth does state it is only tested in RTW I believe.

Now, will those who download the fourth age all kill me if I make all the archer units into missile prec units.... :help:

[Makanyane]

Now, will those who download the fourth age all kill me if I make all the archer units into missile prec units....
Probably not, but being in slightly the same boat on the testing phase, one modder might if you don't explain what that means :inquisitive:

[Dol Guldur]

clue: I've done it to the Serpent Black and the White Company :beam:

And I would prefer not to be killed until Forth Eorlingas is out - though that indeed may kill me in and of itself :(

[lt1956]

I tested these changes and it didnt fix the archer issue. the Archer bug is based on Armor to Attack ratio on the missile archer units.

I think fixes like these should be tested by others before being loaded as a tutorial.

[Thor the Bassist]

I tested these changes and it didnt fix the archer issue. the Archer bug is based on Armor to Attack ratio on the missile archer units.

I think fixes like these should be tested by others before being loaded as a tutorial.

For a start this thread is from well over a year ago and are you using DarthMod?

[lt1956]

Doesnt matter on the age, its a matter of it being a tutorial for something that doesnt do what is claimed. I designed the SPQR mod, and I am not ignorant of RTW mechanics, the changes he suggested when testing didnt provide the results claimed.

Basically the Archer Bug isnt a Bug at all but a Feature by CA to allow archers not to Waste the ammo on Very heavy units which cause them little damage. Thus having the AI focus on the lighter units. This of course caused problems for us.

The way to fix this is a FINE balance between the Maximum setting for Attack on the archers and the Defence values of the most tough unit plus adjusting the Hitpoints which are not effected by the ratio bug. Also weather considerations need to be taken into effect because the penalties given to the archers attack.

I am not attacking anyone, I just feel there are enough modders that agree this fix isnt a fix at all. This has nothing to do with Darthmod or DarthVader as a person. He has contributed alot to RTW and RTR mod etc. But that doesnt mean that this fix is correct or that he is right all the time.

Sincerely,

Lt1956

[Aradan]

Not sure that the "foot missile bug" is a feature (I've done my share of balancing and unit behaviour research), but agree this should probably be removed or a note added or sth), since it has been comfired to be inaccurate.

[Thor the Bassist]

Doesnt matter on the age, its a matter of it being a tutorial for something that doesnt do what is claimed.

Sorry i thought it worked as no one had said it didn't work in the thread.

[Dol Guldur]

It never worked for me but I was coding and testing in BI and Darth always maintained that he had only tested in RTW so I assumed perhaps there was something different with that exe - however, I later spoke with others and they also said it did not work in RTW.

I am not altogether sure what made Darth think it worked in the first place...

[Thor the Bassist]

It never worked for me but I was coding and testing in BI and Darth always maintained that he had only tested in RTW so I assumed perhaps there was something different with that exe - however, I later spoke with others and they also said it did not work in RTW.

Sounds like Voodoo to me.

[mcantu]

the fix portion may not have been correct but much of hte rest of the post has helped me a lot. i say just add a disclaimer as to that part of the post...