Visit to M2TW Dev studio - post your must-know modding questions here!

[Epistolary Richard]

As previously announced:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70183

I plan to visit the M2TW development studio in a couple of weeks, meet some of the men behind the new game and get an 'under the hood' look at the game itself.

The primary purpose of the visit will be to have a look at the moddability of the new game, talk direct with the devs about what's possible and what's not and discuss any of CA's plans to support the modding community. Hopefully, it will all contribute to give M2TW mods a kickstart and get them out into the eager hands of mod-users as quickly as possible.

As mentioned, this is a chance to ask some modding-related questions directly to the men who made the game - so fire away with what you want to know!

[tFighterPilot]

Ask them for an extractor for the demo's pack file.

EDIT: lol, I registered two years ago and I only have 3 posts

[SigniferOne]

1) What tools will be included, and

2) will animations be provided unpacked.

[Furious Mental]

What hardcoded limits will there be?

[DrAI]

Probably the most wanted info would be on modding the AI.

Biggest problem with RTW was the way AI units would attack without support and leave themselves open to flank attack etc..
I know CA have said they have corrected alot of this but I am sure it can be improved further.

CA will obviously want to protect their code to avoid it be used in other games.
It's a long shot of being able to really get into the base workings of the AI but whatever you can find out will be very useful.

[Duke John]

Not for me, I most likely won't even buy M2:TW, but for the sake of the modding community which has already started lots of new projects.

Do they realize that the community has wasted hundreds of hours with buggy unofficial tools after being told that R:TW would get modding support?

How hollow are their promises for modding support for M2:TW? Practically all modders sees modding support as getting official model/animation importer/exporter and an unpacker. That is how it works for many other top games.

And if they do plan to release a tool, do they realize that if the community gets that tool after a year that few will be able to release their projects before the next TW game?

[Orb]

1) Will it be possible to mod in extra religions?
2) Will it be possible to tie in recruitment or traits to diplomatic relations?

[BozosLiveHere]

Will the script/trait files accept OR operators?

[Apoc]

Will the script/trait files accept OR operators?

Oh, how I hope they will.

Will there be an Ancillary condition (in the same way that there is a Trait condition)?

[Epistolary Richard]

Do they realize that the community has wasted hundreds of hours with buggy unofficial tools after being told that R:TW would get modding support?

How hollow are their promises for modding support for M2:TW? Practically all modders sees modding support as getting official model/animation importer/exporter and an unpacker. That is how it works for many other top games.

And if they do plan to release a tool, do they realize that if the community gets that tool after a year that few will be able to release their projects before the next TW game?

Well, as I say the main purpose of the visit is to talk about modding support, and if they're going to follow the same path of RTW then it will be a pretty short conversation :wink:

I'm not personally in the modding communities for any other games - but what would be helpful in this regard would be for some specific examples of what other game companies have provided in terms of official tools. Then I can hold them up as how CA should be supporting the modding community and how their competitors have made it work.

[Luciano B]

I would like to know if it is possible to add more factions (some people in the past told about a faction limit brought up to 30 slots), and in general the hardcoded limits concerning the max number allowed of unit entries, unit textures, cultures; and also the max map-sizes allowed. I would like to know also if it is possible to mod or add buildings, a necessary feature for the mod-projects which cover different eras than the medieval one.

Thanks in advance.

[shifty157]

I'm not personally in the modding communities for any other games - but what would be helpful in this regard would be for some specific examples of what other game companies have provided in terms of official tools. Then I can hold them up as how CA should be supporting the modding community and how their competitors have made it work.

Well. WHen you look at the support that other companies give to their modding community it really puts CA to shame. Alot of companies will release their developement tools to the public (sometimes with the game itself, sometimes as a seperate download). Alot of games are completely open for modding with incredibly minimal restrictions. Most games support the ability to turn mods on and off while you're playing the game. Some companies even have modding competitions where every week or month they give a prize out to whoever created the most impressive piece of work during that time (the Unreal Tournament franchise has their 'create something unreal' competition). So many other companies really put forth an effort to encourage modding by almost any means possible because they realize that mods can incredibly increase the lifespan of a game, boost sales (especially later in the lifespan), and provide them with a good deal of feedback about what people liked and didnt like which they can then apply to their next game. In terms of modding support, CA is almost a decade behind other game companies in realizing the benefit of a strong modding community.

[Tamur]

One of the more stunning examples of moddability is Neverwinter Nights, which blurs the line between playing a game and modding a game so much that there are those who buy the game only to use the modding tools and are almost never interested in playing the game itself as it comes from the producer.

I won't go into detail, but the NWN engine (and soon NWN2) allows the user to lay out extremely articulate (detailed) maps, create custom character models, script triggers flexibly, modify walkmeshes, create full-blown AI systems, and generally has so much flexibility that it has its own scripting language with a C/C++ hybrid syntax.

NWN has blown the RPG market out of the water as far as moddability. Valve's SDKs for the HalfLife engines are legendary in the FPS market. It's only a matter of time till someone does the same for strategy games.

[niccolo il discourser]

I hear you Duca Giovanni,

But lets say CA was serious about supporting modding. What in your estimation would be the necessary steps that would needed to be taken? What would a Mod-encouraging and supporting response look like?

I have some experience with Battlefield (and its variants) and with Half Life (and its variants) and they seem to have really active modding. What would it take to make that happen with TW?

Grazie

Osservo in avanti alla vostra risposta,

Niccolo

[shifty157]

When exactly were you going ER?

[Epistolary Richard]

Interesting examples there, what would be more helpful would be specific examples from official tools offered in relation to similar types of game (RTS/TBS). NWN and Half-Life obviously have immense creative flexibility - but we must accept at the moment that the game will be what it will be and focus on what official tools we should expect.


When exactly were you going ER?
My visit should start from around Wednesday 25th October.

[shifty157]

Ok. Just wondering.

As for specific examples. Bethesda released the developer tools to edit every single type of file they used in The Edler Scrolls: Oblivion basically allowing modders to change anything and everything about the game however they wanted. They offered it as a seperate download which is just fine (they actually released the dev toolkit several weeks before the game actually shipped so modders could get acquainted with the tools first). Tes:o also has the incredibly convenient feature of being able to turn mods on/off within the game by simply checking/unchecking them on a list. But really. Even if you just look around at the mods for tes:o youll quickly realize that absolutely nothing in that game is hardcoded.


Really though. We just dont want to be forced to go through and reverse engineer all the different file types again. It set us back so many months. Its just frustrating to think that we basically had to hack the game to be able to edit anything. I dont like to think where we'd be if it wasnt for Vercingetorix.

[Monarch]

Interesting examples there, what would be more helpful would be specific examples from official tools offered in relation to similar types of game (RTS/TBS). .

Good point. I looked through a bit of googling at Civ IV. It apparently comes with "a powerful map editor with xml and python support, designed from the ground up for modability" (official site). I'm not active in their community, but I thought you guys might know if that means its moddable alot or not lol.

Civ IV also features a system to load mods as you please, like the TOS:O one.

[DukeofSerbia]

I think CA (and now SEGA because they decide now about everything) don't want to release full modding because they don't have competition and if they release they maybe fear that competition create clon which can be better. This is my speculation.
Just look what SEGA did - they charge demo! What is next... I am very sceptical since SEGA bought CA.

[Epistolary Richard]

They what demo?

The release of modding tools IMO has nothing to do with any competition as every mod always has to have the original game to run. Valve didn't exactly suffer from the release of Counter-Strike.

[shifty157]

I believe what dukeofserbia meant is that they wouldnt want to open up the source code of the actual game which would allow other companies to copy whatever they wanted from it.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Two Questions, I hope you ask them :-)

1. (not a modding question) Are they thinknig about having a Program to Record Wins/Losses on MP??

2. (modding question) Would they give us a modding program/s of some sort??

[Mount Suribachi]

Whilst not a modder myself I would like to chip into this thread with the comment that CA/SEGA seem to be making much more of an effort with the TW community than was ever the case with previous games. I think they realised that RTW was a step backwards as far as we were concerned and now they're trying to win us back.

So we see lots of features returning in MTW2, gameplay taking steps back to where it used to be, and we see prominent members of the community being involved - Palamedes being hired, Soulflame being invited to a preview, now ER being invited to CA Aus.

All I can do is second what the others have said about games that come with full-on modding tools. Half-Life, HL2, Morrowind, Oblivion etc. Great games whose shelf-life, playability and most importantly (for the developers) sales have been enhanced by what the modding community has been able to do.

I appreciate that CA is very wary of their competitors getting access to their battlefield calculations, but surely modding tools can be released (as a download or with the XP) that keep them under lock and key.

Short answer: Anything that makes life easier for the modders and allows them to be more creative, so that I, the end user, may benefit ~:)

EDIT: Oh, and is there any chance that older TW games such as Shogun will be released to the public with the code opened up? IIRC Black Isle did something similar with Baldurs Gate allowing the community to do some funky stuff with it

[DukeofSerbia]

I believe what dukeofserbia meant is that they wouldnt want to open up the source code of the actual game which would allow other companies to copy whatever they wanted from it.

Exactly that.



All I can do is second what the others have said about games that come with full-on modding tools. Half-Life, HL2, Morrowind, Oblivion etc. Great games whose shelf-life, playability and most importantly (for the developers) sales have been enhanced by what the modding community has been able to do.

Excellent example is Paradox Plaza and Europa Universalis. Whole code is open for modding and for mostly is enough just Notepad.:2thumbsup:

[wlesmana]

Q: What is their official stance on total conversions?
Q: Are models editable? (And I mean editable as in being able to be edited by any modder, in full, and not having to rely on the good graces of a programmer to crack and compile the format)
Q: Will animations be editable? (Same note as above)
Q: Will there be weird hardcoded limits like 6 men in a unit when it's proven that one man unit can function in Historical Battles? Do they know the number 6 is the sign of the devil? (that's a joke btw)

[wilddog]

Any information you could find out about the Campaign map would be great. Particularly any limits on sizes, the amount of water etc.

I haven't seen how the new world map opens up so don't know if it 'extends' the European map or you switch between two maps.

Also are seasons represented and is the map coded to just two types (summer and Winter) as in RTW etc.

[rorarii]

One of the more stunning examples of moddability is Neverwinter Nights, which blurs the line between playing a game and modding a game so much that there are those who buy the game only to use the modding tools and are almost never interested in playing the game itself as it comes from the producer.

I won't go into detail, but the NWN engine (and soon NWN2) allows the user to lay out extremely articulate (detailed) maps, create custom character models, script triggers flexibly, modify walkmeshes, create full-blown AI systems, and generally has so much flexibility that it has its own scripting language with a C/C++ hybrid syntax.

NWN has blown the RPG market out of the water as far as moddability. Valve's SDKs for the HalfLife engines are legendary in the FPS market. It's only a matter of time till someone does the same for strategy games.


That sounds great Tamur .. but are they developing /or could we develop a ancient wargame in the engine? MAybe if SEGA is tight we might have to immigrate ... dare I say it .. immigrate away from TotalWar! Ug! to another moddable engine.

"ROME IS LOST!! the kelts plunder and burn! .. Lets start anew in Veii!"

"The Veii Empire" .. " Imperial Veii" .. (just getting side-tracked)

Richard, I'm very interested in the class system, allowing only a certain number of unit types to be trained each turn .. could this be extended to dividing up the population - Aristocrats, merchants, peasants etc.


Thanks


R

[Sinuhet]

Good point. I looked through a bit of googling at Civ IV. It apparently comes with "a powerful map editor with xml and python support, designed from the ground up for modability" (official site). I'm not active in their community, but I thought you guys might know if that means its moddable alot or not lol.

Civ IV also features a system to load mods as you please, like the TOS:O one.

In Civilization IV are possibliteis far more extended than the above features only. The start of the game was a bit bad, a lot of bugs of type memory leaks ahas made it almost unplayble in average comp in 2005, however after resolving these issues they have to the community compared to RTW almost incredible possibilities of modding with releasing the SDK (i.e. unlocked C++ code of the important dll library). The community till the time has more possibilites in scripting because they have chosen more flexible scripitng language for Civ IV - Python !!!. For more references is possible to name the group of various mixed Cpp-code/Python modifications or the quite unique project named "Civilization 4 Community Core Project" (something similar like bugfixer or Cherry Vanilla Pack for RTW, however on the level of released hardcode modifying and with aim to expand possiblites of "only Python scripters"). See www.civfanatics.com to see their community projects in more detail.

Also, The Civ IV is strategy game too like TW is, and they could be "afraid" of "borrowing" their AI solutions, but after the error with releasing the buggy game on the level of early beta in the beginning, the company heads appears to be more lucid than CA ever was as for the releasing the code for modifications and attitude to the (in beginning also negative) feed-back. If I will compare it with the situation of "the bug/non-bug/AI-optimalization" in RTW 1.2 patch, petitions, bannings in com site and similar stuff, I would say that CA is actively doing a lot of to prevent - for them vital as we her know - contact and normal communication with their players/modders/customers and not helping them.

Sorry for my English, but I think you will graps after several readings what I have meant to say....

Bye S.

[Lysander]

Here are some (besides what we really want to know about the pak files):

(1) Will we be able to have more than 21 factions on the campaign map (there was talk of 30 possible at one time)? I noticed that there are already more than 21 factions defined in the text files, if you count the Saxons and the Normans.

(2) Are the rome abilities (e.g., testudo, shieldwall) still in the game (would they be recognized if one assigned the attribute to a unit in the EDU)?

(3) Is the horde feature (from BI) in the game?

(4) Will it be possible to remove the pope from a campaign (e.g., if one wanted to create an ancient era mod)? The same goes for crusades

(5) *this isn't a mod question, but I am curious* Have they decided whether to put the option of saving a battle replay in the single player campaign in?

Thanks for taking our questions.

[wilddog]

Sorry another map question.
In MTW2 do they still use the same file to control the actual heghts in the cmapaign map v the battle map (the descr_terrain.txt file). In RTW this has led to people increasing heights characteristics so the campaign maps look 'better' but when you use them in the battle maps the slopes become way too steep.
It would be great to know if they split this into two different files to overcome the problem.

[Vuk]

Please ask if there will be a builtin mod switcher which was lacking (much to my displeasure) in RTW.

[Mount Suribachi]

It was announced that it was to be included with BI...but I don't think it was?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

there already is one....

instructions on how to implement it are here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44332