Sicily [Archive]

Duncan_Hardy

11-18-2006, 13:23

Into the 75th turn of my Sicily campaign (my first long campaign), so here are a few pointers:

Early Expansion: I strongly recommend taking Corsica, Sardinia and Tunis ASAP. Make the two island castles into cities for trade purposes, but keep Tunis as a castle. This will give you a circle of early-game trade and an extra unit-training base. If you are skilled enough to hold it against inevitable Milanese attacks, Florence can prove lucrative too. Your nobles will probably ask you to take Durazzo, which I used as a base to take all of Greece and ultimately Constantinople (warning: this will test your military and financial skills to the limit!), before heading north to take the Venetians' lands. I'd avoid North Africa beyond Tunis because of the distances involved and the relative poverty of those provinces. Once the first crusade has been declared you can start carving out an empire in the Middle East too.

Your Likely Enemies: I don't see how you can avoid making enemies of Milan, Venice and Byzantium (and possibly the Moors and the Holy Roman Empire) within a few dozen turns, simply because obeying your nobles will mean treading on the toes of all of these factions. Make sure to garrisson Florence with plenty of cavalry and you should hold Florence against Milan, who will then turn their attentions to France. Venice will aim to oust you from Greece, so use a combination of Muslim archers (later, crossbowmen) and heavy cavalry to defeat their infantry-heavy armies then eventually storm northwards to their capital. Your most dangerous enemy will be Byzantium; their heavy infantry and light cavalry archers are tricky to counter, so large armies will be required to defeat them, but their rich cities are worth the effort.

Best Units: You will be relying a lot on cavalry. The infantry roster for Sicily is the basic Western European one, with Italian militia, and does not stand up well to Venetian, Milanese or Byzantine foot soldiers. The deciding factor will always be cavalry (as it should be for 11th century Normans), with Muslim Archers being a nice early-game bonus (since they will always beat peasant archers of other armies). Use Mailed Knights until Palermo has tier 3 stables, then use it as a Norman Knights factory (if you can afford them, Dismounted Norman Knights are nice too). These are awesome units, only a step below Chivalric Knights which you won't be getting till around turn 50 or so. Try to avoid city fights which favour the spearmen you face, and stay on open fields where you can pin down enemy troops with your archers/militia then flank with your cav (you will be using similar tactics to France, HRE or any other Western heavy-cav faction really).

The Importance of the Navy: Because all your lands are on different islands and peninsulars, having 2-3 full stack elite navies is key in the long run. Make sure to switch to heavy war galleys as soon as possible, and keep building more and more. This will prevent your many enemies from strangling your sea trade, and will allow you to take troops from your advanced bases in Italy to your wars further afield.

The Pope and the Church: Playing the good Christian kingdom serves the Sicilians well, not least because the lands to their south and east - primary expansion areas - are dominated by other faiths who will resent Catholic rule. I highly recomment making church/chapel building your priority with each new city/upgrade, and have the maximum number of priests at all times. Keeping one priest in each province should protect you from inquisitors, and you can send your surplus clerics to convert Orthodox/Muslim lands you have just taken/will be taking soon. Religious hegemony not only makes your life much easier, but it also pleases the Pope, so that if you do not initiate aggressions with Catholic factions you will remain his favourite throughout the game (don't worry, once they declare war on you you can soundly defeat them without consequence). This will make your life easier when fighting Venice, Milan and the HRE- at one point in my campaign the Pope had excommunicated all three of them, giving me a free hand to take all of Italy. One final advantage of maxing out your priests is that you will always have 3-5 cardinals in the college, ensuring that from Gregory onwards the popes will always be Sicilian.

KeyserSoze

11-21-2006, 07:57

On VH/VH on 0.50 years per turn.

Trade/Economy

One of the first things I noticed was (like Medieval) Naples and especially Sicily are great trading provinces. I elected to change Sicily to a Town at first opportunity. This will be your major revenue-producing province, and it's best not to waste it on building a castle.

Step 1

Take Corsica. I found it to be the best option for a military base. It's a bit counter-intuitive, and many may view this as a mistake with Tunis being near, but either will do. I picked Corsica because 1) It generally can't be compromised by the computer (it doesn't understand naval travel) and 2) It's centrally located if you want to pick up other Italian/French/North African/Iberian provinces.

There's only a few units there, so take a General and 2-3 units. Build a castle and build a few decent units. Now's the fun part.

Papal Relations

I hate long crusades as a European country. Hungary has you at a disadvantage by virtue of being closer to the usual Eastern Mediterranean objectives, while Spain is a shoe-in for any Andalusian target. Either direction has you managing a province from far away, which is not good (the ultimate demise of my Milan campaign was managing Jerusalem and pouring in tons of capital to keep this province under control).

The best target is Tunis. No Catholic faction can beat you. It's just across the pond from Sicily, and in one or two turns you're there.

Step 2

Go to the Pope (at the first available opportunity) with your diplomat. It's very easy to get his support for a crusade (or anything else) by allying with him, giving him as a gift Map Info and Military Access. You'll also want a few churches. Get 3 of your generals together and 5 others on the tip of Africa (usually the Moors haven't conquered Tunis yet) and declare a Crusade. Put a priest or 2 in this group. Now take the city from the meager force of rebels. You've just given everyone experience and very good general trait scores for almost nothing.

Also, you've got a base from which to convert people to Christianity, thereby getting good piety scores with your priests. I haven't burned any blasphemers, and at the 36th (1098) turn in the game I have 4 cardinals including the highest Bishop Preferati, meaning I am all but assured of the Papacy. I also make it a point to ally with everyone I meet to ensure Papacy votes. Once you're in, you can betray anyone and the Pope looks the other way. :laugh4:

Now you can sit back and destroy your enemies with Crusades. They'll probably be excommunicated for any minor infraction against you, and then just retaliate with Crusades against them.

Step 3

Take Corsica and (if it's still there) Florence. Nice money producing provinces. I build the max and I still have more money than I can spend due to the trade triangle I have with Sicily, Naples, Corsica, Sardinia, and Tunis.

Epilogue

From here you're set. You haven't pissed anyone off (like Milan) and your bases consist mainly of defensible islands and peninsulas. I allied with the Moors and convert their lands, to keep them there and not attacking me.

Bloodlines: The Sicilian bloodline is really very good, packed with useful traits and relatively high scores. Keep crusading, especially against nearby provinces. Deny any general who has low scores from adoption/marriage in to the family. I waited and got some exceptional candidates, especially high loyalty and chivalry (which I value most).

TheFluff

11-25-2006, 09:59

Well i just wanted to chime in, i dont have much negative to say aboiut Sicily ,i been playing a very long campagin with them and have made a TON of money tradeing. The only downside to this faction is eventully they become alot like the HRE in terms of borders and you'll have to deal with the pope of couse.

My main gripe though is that because of your position, you have to deal with alot of navy (eating resorses) and you need a big fleet to keep trade routs and reinforcments moveing. Also, there unique unit, the norman knight is more powerfull then a dismounted fudal knight (but WAYYY uglyer) but you soon find out that your somewhat stuck with them unless you upgrade your barracks really high to get some more redundent unit types that other factions get earler. I'd say the best thing this faction has going for it is the fact that dispite haveing a western castle unit roster, it can get pavise milita and itilian milita. So basitcally its just another itilian clone or milian or venice with ugly looking unique units (Although they are usefull when you can mass produce)

Bottom line, Sicily is a fun game to play, but only if you enjoy teching up and not really fighting to many wars. You'll also have to get used to the general unaprealing look of all there units. The AI plays them much better because the AI techs out, while the human player usually focus on either econ or military,and you'll find yourself even in the hardest game one of if not the most advanced faction, there fore able to build very highend units while most armys are still made up of dismounted fudual knights.

EnemyOfTheState

11-29-2006, 02:09

Must throw in my two cents abotu Sicily. I tried a different approach to the game, instead of bum rushing the AI I waited about 50 or so turns before taking a computer city/castle.

Capture the cities on Corisca and Sardinia and convert the Corsican one to a city. Also convert your Captial to a city, while this might be considered a dumb move it can generate a -lot- of cash from trade. Gather your armies in a central point and get the pope to declare a crusade against Tunis. Capture it with your King, Heir, and other family members in your army to get a huge amount of bonuses. These cities and castles if teched up will generate huge amounts of money per turn. :2thumbsup:

Mounted and unmounted Norman knights along with muslim archers = your best friends

nameless

11-29-2006, 02:50

The thing though is you have to deal with Venice and Milan which can quickly grow powerful.

Their navies are strong and their armies can give a whooping. I'm beginning to think unless you want a challenge, expand to the middle east. Otherwise, stay to the south and western areas. I find it difficult to make a profit in the gaza -> Alexandria region due to the unrest there.

It maybe advantageous to grab all of the islands and north africa, and then start campaigning in Italy. By that time venice or milan would have become excommunicated.

IrishArmenian

11-29-2006, 07:26

I've found out that the best way to go is to take Tunis in your first turns. Then convert Palermo to a town/city and then take Corsica and Sardinia. Make priests and send them to North Africa! I got three cardinals in a few turns and I'm currently trying for more. As soon as a crusade was called, I rounded up an army and with the navy I had already created, took to the seas, making sure to always unload my army every turn in case my ships were sunk. I know have Jerusalem in addition to the central Mediteranean Circle and I am generating a lot of money. Palermo has a Theologian's Guild, Naples has a Merchant's Guild and I am holding out in Jerusalem for a Hospitaller/Teutonic/Templar Guild House.

KARTLOS

11-30-2006, 09:50

one of the nice things about the sicicians is their position on the map encourages you to expand in every direction - leading ultimately to the opportunity to face a wide variety of different troops.

following council of noble missions, i took durazzo, tunis, bologna and the islands as soon as possible.
algiers is rarely well defended and should be picked up earlly as well.

i found that i was never attacked in north africa or the islands as the ai doesnt seem to launch naval invasions. thus you dont need to bother keeping more than a minimal garrison (one unit for castles) and can quickly move on to the next target.

another route i took, which is perhaps a bit unusal for the sicilians was to take the rebel provinces of valencia and bordeaux. fairly early, whhich put me on collision course with the spanish, portugese and french.

in my campagn the hre was excomunicated and i pursuaded the pope to declare a crusade on frankfurt. i was able to take out the entire hre with my cruading forces.

the best thing about the sicilians is they have the coolest looking units - the normans are the meanest looking units in the game, and grey is just a generally mean colour! they dont just look mean though they are super hard and you will find you outclass most western armeis you face at the beggining.

the biggest challenge are armies with alot of missile cavalry, like hungary, poland, they byz and the turks. its probably best to try and avoid facing armies with alot of missile cav in the field and instead massacre them when you lay seige. they are much less effective if you face them in the confinement of a city. in particular i fought one battle in the snowy woods of central europe between a full stack army of mine versus a full stack pole army. we fought each other to a standstill i ended up winning, but with only about 100 soldiers remaing. with the trees adding to the confusion alot of excellent cavalry units were entirely wiped out by their polish nobles.

Bijo

12-09-2006, 15:04

Indeed you can expand into every direction by sea and by land to the north. Sicily's mainland in South Italy makes it one of the best positions to have Palermo or Tunis as your capital in the center as you could build around that.
Like many I'd take Tunis first and then the rest of North Africa for some cash. But I'd surely stay away from Milan and Venice since -- as somebody in this thread said -- they can grow very strong fast. They'd get medieval on yo' ass :P

To ally with the Pope is also a good move, yes. But not just to ally with him/Papal States; also to keep the relations up to perfect (those crosses in the Pope screen, Papal Standing).

As I said I'd keep my armies away from Europe as much as possible. I'd concentrate on the Islamic factions especially the Moors and the Egyptians because they are the closest Islamic factions to reach once you have North Africa.

It's good to ally with other Catholic factions and to not attack these Europeans, but only defend when you need to. You'll keep your relations higher and your reputations too probably while engaging in diplomacy. And while slaughtering Islamics in the far lands and while being allied and favored by the Papal States it'll be grand :)

I'm playing it two turns per year by the way. I should've read this tip in here about turning the capital into a city immediately but now I can't do that anymore. I kept it a castle because I thought it would be a great central point to train strong units and launch them navally into every desirable direction. So far, it's been meager at best for me.

AlphaDelta1

12-13-2006, 11:42

I'm on about turn 300 of a Sicily campaign. I've destroyed every faction (including the Timurids) except for the Scottish and Mongols. They're a fun faction to play, being right in the middle of the med makes it quite challenging.

Early and mid-game the Sicilians have some great units. Late game however they begin to suffer in my opinion. Against the mongols you have more or less no option but to let them besiege your settlements.

Against the Timurids however, I found a wonder weapon. Mounted crossbow men. When I first saw this unit I thought it was quirky and left it at that. Against the timurids however, its practically your only option. Build a full stack of these and attack any Timurid army you see. Typicaly in an engagement between my full stack and a full stack of Timurids I would kill everything EXCEPT the elephants, losing between 20 and 40% of my army. Once the enemy inf and cav are killed or routed your only choice is to run from the elephants and let them chase you around the map.

The only way I've found to rout the elephants is a charge of atleast 5 units of heavy cav.

Cheers

Blademun

12-14-2006, 03:35

I played Sicily very aggresively in my current campaign. I put one army on a boat and sent it to Corsica, and I made another stack and moved it north to outside of Venice. I waited until Venice moved its army out, and then I went in and captured Venice(it had only 1 unit defending). As that was going on, my other army jumped from Corsica, to Ajacion, and then finnaly to Florence.

I used -alot- of mercenarys so I could pull the rush off in under 15 turns against Florence/Venice. Once I had all those provinces I had the money to build a stack of Norman Knights. I used that to crush Balogna, which was stocked full of militia. (Knights > Town Milita) Once I did that, HRE's allies, Milan, attacked me. I moved a stack to each city immediately. At that point the pope had enough and threatened to excommunicate me.

I gave him the bird and sacked Milan and Genoa. I was excommunicated for it, not that I cared. Afterall, Rome was Next. Lots of fighting and building ensued, but time and again my simple equation pulled through: Knights > Milita. Once i had proper defences on the Alps, I moved a couple stacks down and took Rome. I killed the pope..and killed him again, and again and again, until one of my Cardinals made it in. I got 'redeemed' and I set up a defence. (defending yourself doesn't hurt your rep with pope)

Lastly, I gathered up all my mercs that had been so important in the first 30 turns, paired them with a decent general and waited for a crusade to get called. I had the stack wait just off Jerusalems coast. When the crusade was called, I was ontop of Jerusalem the next turn. I took it, held it for a turn, then marched a diplomat out to the Pope's stack outside rome. I moved my army out of Jerusalem, and gave Jerusalem to the pope. Instant Perfect Rep.

He died a few turns later, and the next pope(sicillian) appeared in Jerusalem, not Rome. ^_^ I effectively moved the Inquistor hive to the other side of the world. Yay. I CHOOSE YOU, PIKACHU! Hate inquistors and the pope. He can go rot in the desert surrounded by muslims.

Some things to note: The initial rush has to be done fast, within 20 turns. In the early game the AI is preoccupied with taking Rebel lands. They leave their capitals poorly defended. Italy is so cramped it only takes a few turns to move a stack right ontop of Venice.

Rome will excommunicate you for being so aggresive. Ignore it, avoid the Inquisitors, and first chance you get, crush Rome. Rome loses its 'bite' when you can kill the Pope whenever you want.

Lastly: Knights > Militia. The whole point of this strategy is it wins you half a dozen rich citys in under 50 turns. The money from sacking all those settlements lets you get a jump on the production curve and start making Norman Knights. Norman Knights + Muslim Archers FTW!!!11

TevashSzat

12-19-2006, 01:23

I also played a quite agressive strategy and right now it is turn 30 and I have 25 provinces.

I first sent up and took Florence followed by Durazzo. Then, attacked Milan and wiped them out pretty easy. Then, attacked Venice and Ragusa at the same time to pretty much wipe them out. After this, took Zagreb, Dijon, and Bern. Attacked Byzantine next and took Corinth, Thessaloina, Constantinople, and Nicae at which I destroyed their family and the faction was destroyed. At the same time I took Corsica and Sardina. Now, the HRE declared war on me. Hungary and I are kicking their ass though since I have taken Bologna, Metz, the castle near Metz, Innsbruck, and Numberg. I am close to taking Vienna and Frankfurt. I am making at about 16K a turn and am allied with England, Hungary, Papal States, and Spain. I am number one in everything except for economy which i am at third since i spend too much money hiring mercs.

It is imperitive to take over northern Italy as soon as possible. I only took Bologna at turn 21, but that was because I had an alliance with HRE and didn't want to ruin my reputation. If you have Venice, Florence, Bologna, Milan, and Genoa, you are able to make ten units a turn allowing you to create pretty decent armies quickly with the good italian militia and mercs.

diotavelli

03-12-2007, 14:38

Playing as Sicily, you're in a fairly luxurious position - your only neighbour is the Papacy and you have easy access to crusading opportunities. But how to take advantage of this situation?

Send your princess off to buy Bologna. She'll take a couple of turns to get there and she won't get as good a deal as Milan or Venice would have done but it's still worth doing. Bologna will produce 1100 florins a turn easily, so if you're paying that much or less per turn over 6-8 turns, your purchase is essentially cash neutral.

Meanwhile, load all available troops in Palermo onto your fleet there and send them off to Naples. Convert Palermo to a city. Embark your troops from Naples (minus the essential garrison). Land this combined force near Florence and besiege it (although you may want to detach a general and send him to join the Bolognese garrison).

Once Florence falls, you'll have four provinces, all of which are capable of turning a tidy profit. In the meantime, your princess should have returned from Bologna and got you to perfect relations with the Pope, whilst Palermo and Naples should have churned out a few more militia units. Sail one of your generals to Naples, disembark, ask the Pope for a crusade against Tunis and then re-embark with all available Napolese troops. If you need to add troops from Palermo to get a sufficient stack to join the crusade, do so.

Then get your crusader down to Tunis pronto, as you'll need to get your siege in place before the Moors arrive. Besiege for the full five turns and forego the inclination to storm the castle - you want to waste no troops. As soon as Tunis is captured, convert it to a city and reembark all essential troops. Start producing priests and watch Tunis add to your growing economy.....

Whilst this has been going on, the Venetians will have attacked Bologna (unless you overstocked the garrison) and the Milanese will have a small stack hiding in the trees near Florence. This is good. Beat up the Venetians and buy off the Milanese for five turns. Take Venice.

The troops you're returning from Tunis should now combine with your existing troops in Northern Italy and take Genoa - this will be legit because the Milanese invariably attack once you've stopped paying them off and they see you focusing your attentions on Venice.

You now have sufficient resources and troop-building capabilities to take on whatever Milan and Venice can throw at you, so send a highly chivalrous general and four militia units to take Ajaccio. As soon as you have it, garrison it with your general and send the militia to take Cagliari.

The general in Ajaccio will get a population boom going and the castle will grow quickly to the point where it can produce enough basic cavalry for your needs. Cagliari becomes a city. This gives you seven cities and one castle, with a better economy than any of your opponents are likely to have soon.

This approach works well for me on short or long campaigns. Holding the Italian peninsula and producing as much revenue as you now will do means that you can expand in any direction without concerns over cashflow.

The lack of castles may concern some people but you've been facing enemies (Milan and Venice) with an emphasis on infantry and xbowmen, so you shouldn't be outmatched. And you can afford some Frankish knights as mercenaries for a few turns, given the treasury at your disposal. At this stage, you can go after a few castles (Durazzo, Bern, Innsbruck) depending on who/what your next target is.

My personal preference is the Byzantines. If you want to be faithful to the tradition of the de Guiscards, land troops at Durazzo and head straight for Thessalonica and then Constantinople; no taking outlying islands or consolidating your position! Once you've decapitated the Empire, you can dismember it at your leisure.

I find that the French tend to be provocative once you've taken Genoa but they can be largely ignored - unless you have to take Dijon to destroy the Milanese, in which case leave a small garrison to encourage an attack and then hit back hard. Destroy whatever force you're faced with and then sit back and wait. Sooner or later, they'll come running with a ceasefire proposal and will agree to giving you two cities. A far smarter approach than fighting for territory, if your real focus is to the East.

HRE will probably leave you alone and Venice can be cleaned up once the Byzantines are dead. You'll want to carry on crusading but ensure these are always against local opponents or, if this isn't possible, use them to extend your North African holdings.

The Normans in Sicily are about a small number of cunning warriors using the money and resources at their disposal to dominate the central Mediterranean. They are not the same as the cavalry-heavy armies of the Duchy of Normandy and should not be played the same.

All in all, a great faction to play, with more strengths than weaknesses and a truly interesting blend of troops.

Unorthodox

03-13-2007, 11:20

One mistake I made in my first couple of Sicilian campaigns was taking Durazzo. It's not of all that much use, and it inevitably lands you in a war with the Byzantines, which isn't really something you want to commit to in the early game - you'll have plenty of trouble with the Northern Italians and Moors in the beginning, and the HRE will join in as soon as you actually take territory in Northern Italy.

In the beginning you've also got a good opportunity to ask the Pope to call a Crusade on Tunis. You'll probably want to take Tunis anyway, and it gives your units experience, a cash boost, some very good general piety/ancillaries, and prevents you from having to ship armies all the way to Antioch.

Anyway, I strongly recommend staying in the Pope's good graces and taking Florence (buy Bologna off the HRE as well, if you can afford it). It's almost inevitable that Milan and/or Venice will attack you - let them do it, which will land them in trouble with the Pope. You can then take Northern Italy at your leisure, as they become excommunicated. Staying the Pope's good books is quite easy, since you're very close to Rome (it takes a turn or two to send a diplomat there and offer him gifts) and you've also got Africa right next to you for training priests (you should always have at least 4 or 5 Cardinals in the College this way).

MilesGregarius

03-13-2007, 12:26

One mistake I made in my first couple of Sicilian campaigns was taking Durazzo. It's not of all that much use, and it inevitably lands you in a war with the Byzantines...

...I strongly recommend staying in the Pope's good graces.

I always take Durazzo if the Concil of Nobles ask. Taking Durazzo and gifting it to the Pope both keeps you in good stead with the Pope and gets you whatever the Council of Nobles offers you to take it. It also keeps it out of the hands of Venice or the Byzantines, effectively sealing of your flank for some time.

Unorthodox

03-13-2007, 12:31

Oh, I thought of a rather interesting expansion strategy - haven't tried it, but in theory, it should work. If you hate fighting multi-front wars and want to try something new, perhaps this is for you.

In the beginning, turn Palermo into a city, and buy Bologna off the HRE. Gift Bologna to the Papal States. This will give you a huge boost in Papal standing, but more importantly, it will give you what is essentially an impassable buffer zone. I've rarely seen Catholic factions walk armies through Papal land, and Rome and Bologna together cover central Italy from West to East. The enemy rarely attacks by sea, so the European factions shouldn't give you any trouble for a long time. Capture Cagliari and Ajaccio for additional income.

Call a Crusade on Tunis and establish your main castle there. Use that as your launchpad for creating an empire in North Africa. Take Tripoli as well - the Egyptians are unlikely to walk all the way across the desert just for Tripoli, so that border shouldn't need too much defence (although to be sure, you can build a watchtower on the Egyptian border).

From there onwards, start sweeping west - take Algiers, Timbuktu, Arguin, and Marrakesh. Then you can start going North onto the Iberian peninsula, whether its Moorish, Spanish or Portuguese. Take care of the latter two carefully, to make sure you don't run into trouble with the Pope. This way, you'll never really have to fight a war on two fronts. Over a long time period, you should be able to push up through Iberia and into France - you'll only ever have one front. Eventually you should do a full cycle, coming through southern Europe and ending up in Northern Italy. About a quarter of the map will be under your control, and you'll constantly be advancing on a single front, facing one or two enemies at most.

Unorthodox

03-13-2007, 12:37

I always take Durazzo if the Concil of Nobles ask. Taking Durazzo and gifting it to the Pope both keeps you in good stead with the Pope and gets you whatever the Council of Nobles offers you to take it. It also keeps it out of the hands of Venice or the Byzantines, effectively sealing of your flank for some time.

A fair point - maybe I'll do that next time. :yes:

Either way, holding onto Durazzo early on seems to be a drain.

sabaku no gaara

03-14-2007, 00:51

I guess I got lucky in my campaign, I went for Sardinia and Corsica early on and converted them into cities, then I went durazzo and noticed that no one had managed to conquer florence, tough they did weaken their garisson, at the same time , Venice got excomunicated for completely destroying Milan and I crusaded that fortress above Durazo from them, and Venice and now I conquered Genoa, Milan and Marseille from Venice, I also just landed an invasion force on Iraklion so I managed to ratehr quickly conquer a strong trading empire with soem allready nicely developped cities. Venice only has Dijon left wich I don't intend to take just yet as it's better for me if someone keeps the french and HRE occupied. I think I'll go for the other islands in the mediteranian, and then set out to destroy the moors for Timbuktu's riches, aftr that I'll take on Egypt in a few crusades.

Another thing that helped a bit (tough not extremely much) is the little bit of income from merchants, the ones on your islands are safe and generate some, the 2 sheep recources in Naples grant you a nice little bit of money, and the grain helps the city grow if you have a merchant on it. with all my merchants trading little amounts all together they are generating a bit more then my top city wich is Naples

I have one big standing army (currently laying siege to Iraklion), 2 fully garissoned cities and a grand fleet with 10 fleets in it and I'm still making a profit

TeutonicKnight

04-09-2007, 15:17

I didn't get so lucky. I took Durazzo as soon as I recieved the mission for it, and wasted about twenty turns trying to keep it. It's a huge economical drain for some reason. I barely had enough cash to keep my troops retraining, and I had hardly any cash left at all to build anything else. The Byz broke our alliance and kept it under seige so I never could make anything useful out of the town.

Despite some glorious victories, losing it was something of a relief. My profits went up, and I was immediately offered a ceasefire by the Byz.

I recommend avoiding Durazzo, and focus on the Tunis, Corsica, Sardinia triangle. Once you get those three locations, and you can keep your ports open, you'll be doing well enough economically to fund your empire. Then it's time to move northwards. The Alps make a wonderful natural fortification, and Milan/Venice seem to get excommed early. A Crusade on Venice was a beautiful thing. :smash:

I did go on a Crusade to Jerusalem. I captured it, sacked it, and when I realized just how many Egyptians were headed my way I gave it to them and took Acre in trade. Since it's a castle, I've got a more defensible foothold in the East for more Crusades, and I'm pumping out priests and keeping my garrison top-end. And the Pope just called a Crusade on Antioch. :laugh4:

My intention for the next phase is to consolidate my defenses in northern Italy along the Alps, grab Antioch, and start taking Byz islands. I don't want to go toe-to-toe with them on the mainland where their large stacks are, but if I can keep them out of Italy, I might be able to destroy them economically by taking out their trade.

MilesGregarius

04-09-2007, 18:58

I recommend avoiding Durazzo, and focus on the Tunis, Corsica, Sardinia triangle. Once you get those three locations, and you can keep your ports open, you'll be doing well enough economically to fund your empire. Then it's time to move northwards. The Alps make a wonderful natural fortification, and Milan/Venice seem to get excommed early. A Crusade on Venice was a beautiful thing. :smash:

Durazzo's main value is as a gift to the Pope. As Sicily, Il Papa is your best friend. Keep relations with the Pope near perfect and you can use crusades to selectively target the provinces you want while pumping up your generals' stats and to grab a Templar or Hospitaller HQ.

Here's how I've opened both my Sicily campaigns (one M/M, one H/H):

Send forces from Sicily to take Florence.
Ally with the Papacy.
Send the faction leader and the mounted sargeants to the Adriatic coast to set up a watch tower on the eastward bump opposite Ragusa; a tower here will keep tabs on Venice's activities there, and the general will be positioned to embark for Durazzo when the Council asks next turn.
Convert Palermo to a city; I do this after building a chapel.
Once Durazzo falls, give it to the Pope immediately and bring the army back home; you can now essentially forget about the Byzantines until you're ready to turn east.
Once Florence falls, line up the build queue and bring the general back to Sicily.
Assemble your generals and declare a crusade on Tunis. (By this time, the princess should hopefully have attracted a decent suitor).
Once Tunis falls, install a high chivalry general, usually the faction heir, in Palermo and another, probably the faction leader, in Naples; an offer of a chapter house should follow quickly. (I always get offered Templars first which I turn down to get Hospitallers the next turn).
Use Tunis to as your infantry and missle troop recruiting center.
Take Sardinia and Corsica as convenient.
Sit back and wait for Milan and/or Venice to get excommunicated; declare crusades on them as quickly as the Pope allows.

If all goes according to plan, by pumping out order knights and mounting crusades every chance you get, you should get offers to upgrade your chapter houses as quickly as you upgrade the city the first one was in. With order knights crushing all your opponents, you can convert Palermo, Ajaccio, and Cagliari to cities to keep the money flowing (I keep Tunis a castle for Muslim archers and assorted swordsmen). Once the northern Italians are excommunicated, their money-laden cities become easy pickings.

With the Papacy firmly securing your eastern flank (I also give the Pope Tripoli to avoid conflict with Egypt), you can smash the Moors (more crusades:2thumbsup: ), grab Timbuktu's gold mines, and snag anything else you want in the western Med (crusade on rebel Toulouse). You can then turn east at your leisure (I just completed a crusade to take Constantinople from the Turks).

An added bonus to constantly calling your own crusades is that you preclude the Pope calling any so you get to chose when to actually get stuck into the Middle East quagmire. In my current campaign, I'm planning to let the Mongols, Turks, and Egyptians bleed each other dry, then go in and take Jerusalem only to cap off the victory requirements.

Malcolm Big Head

04-21-2007, 13:31

I just started a new campaign (H/H) with Sicily. For an opening move I sent the princess to Bologna and King Roger to Durazzo. Built a diplomat in naples to speak to the Pope. At turn 4 things look up with Papal trade/alliance/military access/crusade to Tunis. Durazzo and 600 florins was traded to HRE for Bologna and trade rights. My hope is that the HRE gets involved in a war with Venice due to this. Roger is on his way up to take Florence and perhaps provoke a bit of ill will with the other Italians.

Durrazo seems like to much of a drain in the early turns and having Bologna should open a path to Venice and the other riches of northern Italy.

rebelscum

05-03-2007, 16:33

mbrasher1

05-10-2007, 19:30

Sicily probably has the most diverse unit roster of any M2TW faction.

Great Militia Units. Getting long spearwall units (halberd militia) earlier than other Italian factions is a huge advantage. Sicily's cities can be assaulted only with great difficulty after these guys are on the scene. The advantages of the halberd militia outweigh those of the the Genoese crossbow militia, whose principal advantages are in additional h-t-h fighting ability.

Excellent Knights. The norman knights are a fine unit, outclassing similar period units.

Great ranged units. The Muslim archer can fight h-t-h, has long range arrows, and is very good against lightly armored opponents, as it lacks AP ability.

Others have covered the strategic options pretty well for Sicily. It has easy access to the Mediterranean islands, North Africa, Jerusalem and it can go in any direction. Power and flexibility.

An early alliance with the pope, and the nearness of Islamic lands means that your priests quickly become cardinals, and the papacy is nearly always held by a Sicilian.

In my recent game I planned to trade Durrazzo for Bologna but the HRE was not buying it. But I took Durrazzo and kept it until the Byz took it. Overall, it was quite profitable to do so, since it only used up on unit, I got a mission to take it and the income more than covered the loss of the peasant archer assigned to guard it.

My general strategy is to simultaneously:

-- Dominate the papacy through an alliance and control of the College of Cardinals
-- Expand into Tunis and then to Moorish lands. This lets your Cardinals train up and will not cause problems with excommunication. Plus the Moors usually have problems in Spain and cannot focus on North Africa.
-- Expand into Italy. First to Florence, then to Bologna and then either Milan or Venice (whichever is currently excommunicated). This leaves you with excellent income, compact European borders and defensible frontiers.
-- Expand in the Mediterranean islands. They are nearby and not well defended. Cagliari, Ajaccio, Iraklion, Rhodes and Nicosia are easy targets. The eastern islands make Crusades easier. The Western islands are good income producers, or can be kept for castle units to supply Northern Italy.

Tran

05-22-2007, 15:01

After the 1.2 patch, the AI does invade corsica quite a lot. I've had both milan and the moors land here, but they haven't landed a force big enough to oust me though.

I take durazzo as soon as the nobles ask me to and give it to the pope.
I'm not sure about these, but first time playing with patch 1.2 as Sicily. Few turns after I made an encounter with Milan, they decided to go with cheap extortion tactic against me, and if I refuse to pay they threaten to attack. The Milanese asked for very small amount of florins but I still refused, and within few turns, they assemble two army. One in a 6 or 7 stack ships sailing for Corsica (Ajacio) and the other one marched on ground heading for Florence.

The Milanese however appearantly failed to notice that I have already made an alliance with the Pope. At first, their huge stack of army managed to defeat my small garrison at Corsica. However, when the other army sieged Florence, the Pope immediately excommunicated Milan. The next thing I did, was that I defeated the Milanese invaders at Florence with my smaller garrison forces, gained a Heroic victory, and didn't forget to call a Crusade against Milan. Which the Pope seemed to agree happily ~;)

Therefore, a very wise thing to do when you're playing as Sicily:

Make alliance with Pope

It is guaranteed that anyone who dared to invade your settlements will be excommunicated in no time (like Milan in my case).

By the way, I'm still early in the game and I also made marriage alliance with the Holy Roman Empire. Perhaps because of the marriage alliance, they (so far) never went to attack me. It is interesting to see what will happen next, though. I might come here again and post the situation.

heisme

05-22-2007, 19:50

These are all of great use, but just one question how do u keep playing for a whole 300 turns i don't mean stopping because youre killed but doesn't it get boring.:vulcan:

Tran

05-23-2007, 01:43

Some people just enjoy it, some even goes as far as editing the timeframe so that it goes 2 turns for one year instead of the usual two years every turn. Slow role-playing is just some (or many) people's favorites... :2thumbsup:

Raizen

06-26-2007, 07:10

I'm having some problems with the Sicilians. I start out alright, I get the Pope to love me best and crusade into Tunis. I take a side army to take Florence, and build some troops in Palermo to move onto Corsica and Sardinia when I get the missions.

Where I'm having trouble is with taking Bologna quickly enough. I always run into money problems with Sicily, which seems strange for a strong Mediterranean position but I'm low on money, so I can't buy it off the HRE. I keep Ajaccio and Palermo as castles and build the rest up as cities. My strategy so far has been to wait until one of Milan/Venice get excommed and go for them, but I'm having money problems and a full Venice stack just repelled me at Bologna (Venice taking it from HRE four turns previous). Is there a particular unit mix I should be going for? My big stack that got beat was mostly Muslim Archers with Spearmen Sergeants and Mailed Knights.

Tran

06-26-2007, 10:31

Your unit compositions is fine in my view. However, you might want to try different strategy when besieging the city.

DensterNY

08-03-2007, 21:45

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys. I decided on a whim to play Sicily and its been a little rocky cause I'm been pretty much using the same strategy that I use with strong infantry, mediocre cavalry nation whichs obviously does not favor the Sicilian's particular strengths and weaknesses. I've also mostly played nations of the Western and Central European mainland so I've not the experience of having pockets of cities and castles scattered across different islands.

I was going nearly bankrupt and had thin scattered forces in my lands cause I was using the "more land=more money" strategy of fighting bitterly to take over and hold provinces. Next time I play I'm going to try and consolidate and fight on less fronts - first by getting rid of Durazzo as many have suggested and even Bologna to the Pope so I can concentrate on building trade, controlling the seas and taking over North Africa then the Middle East.

Damn, I love this game... so many interesting facets to it that you don't even realize.

Gaius Terentius Varro

08-04-2007, 06:43

Most people discount the Sword and buckler men because the tests against the DFK are done on the grassy plain map. Try them in the desert and see who wins. Same with the Italian militia. Low heat penalty makes a big difference

DensterNY

08-06-2007, 15:19

Well, I vegged out this Sunday and played a nice long day of MTW2 with the Sicilians and utilized the different strategy offered here. Wow, what a difference.

First thing it is such an enormous strategic advantage to get rid of Durazzo which pretty much guarantees having your entire Eastern flank protected. And if you give it to the Papal States you get to tie them up in wars with the Byzantine Empire and the Venitians. Plus, with Venice getting excommunicated you can call up Crusades against them to take Venice to complete your conquest of Italy. Plus, after taking Bologna and Genoa and putting stacks in those cities I'm pretty much guarded from any European aggression which leaves me to wage war on the Muslims.

Out

08-07-2007, 21:41

Well, I followed a lot of this, but had a couple unique moves.

My first move was to load my two armies into ships and sail them away, one to the Council of Noble's mission, Durazzo, and the other to Tunis. I conquered both, gifted Durazzo to the Pope AFTER getting a trade agreement from the Byzantine Princess wandering the area, whilst sailing the Durazzo conquerers off to Sardinia and Corsica.

Meanwhile, I built a peasant garrison in Tunis and sent that army over to take Tripoli. At this point, the size of my army was greater than the income I was producing, so I was having problems converting castles into cities, but I wasn't too worried. I disbanded all of the African army, sans garrison forces, while sailing my army in Corsica back to the Italian mainland, where Florence was still in rebel control. I had already purchased Bologna from the HRE a few turns earlier, because disbanding the African army had brought me back to positive income, and I had intended to gift Bologna to the Pope and focus purely on Southern/Eastern conquests.

But, with Florence still in rebel control, I decided to hatch a risky plan and attempt to become a power in Northern Italy. I took Florence, and with Bologna and Florence together, I was going to build up my forces, focus on building my trade income, which was already growing faster than I could spend it, and then move to the East. However, Milan and Venice had other [strange, on the part of Venice] ideas.

This is where I think my plan became a bit...lucky. Milan attacked me, but with Milan's massive Papal approval, it didn't get them excommunicated. Rather, my ensuing retaliation [silly eye for an eye attitude that I had at the time...think I was roleplaying a bit too hard and wanted revenge] got ME excommunicated. However, my leader was old, and so was the Pope, so one of them was going to die soon. I banked on that and launched an assault on Genoa, planning on at least crippling Milan's assets. I took Genoa, a turn later Genoa managed a Heroic victory over a full banner Milanese army, and two turns later an army of militia-men and mercenaries had taken over Milan, killing all three of their Faction's generals in the same battle. Suddenly, Northern Italy was looking very similar to the "Pentagram Start" [as Vladimir has put in the Venice guide] of Milan/Venice, except I also had the massive trade of Sardinia/Corsica + Northern Africa + Sicily.

During this Milanese war, and the thing that allowed this conquest to work, in my mind, was Venice's stupidity. They sailed an army down to Sardinia, of all places, and then proceeded to stand next to my city for 6 turns, doing nothing. They then got back on their boat, sailed away, came back two turns later, and THEN laid siege. Of course, during this time, I had prepared the city for an assault and was able to repel their attack with relative ease. However, due to their "patience" I had become un-excommunicated and attacking me resulted in THEIR excommunication. I proceeded to take Venice, finishing the "Pentagram", while my Reliable allies to the North, the HRE took Zagreb. This start has resulted in my domination of all of Italy, has found me a decent ally to the North [for now...] and has given me the largest income of anyone I've played in the early game.

The only thing I was unable to do, due to being excommunicated for a while, was get the Crusade to be called to a province of my choosing. It was called on Antioch, and I'm probably going to have to take on Egypt next, but beyond that, I should be able to sit still for a while and build my armies without much fear of making too many factions angry.

Gaius Terentius Varro

08-07-2007, 22:05

I never let go of Durazzo since it can be made into a large town
(a port =trade) in just 8 turns.
Venice and Byz will come knocking anyways if you're playing on VH. Better fight them there than have them block Sicily or siege Neaples all the time

hellraiser

08-14-2007, 12:01

I love Sicily...it suits my 'genghis khan' play style 100% :)

This is how i see things:

Motto 1 : 'cash is king'
Motto 2: 'why should i work when others do it for me?'

1. Get those rebel cities nearby including durazzo (which later you can offer to venetians for example to keep them happy - because i frankly could care less about that pathetic settlement). Keep corsica and sardinia though. Tunis as well.
2. Navy - i cannot stress enough how important is to attack every pirate fleet in the area and up your admirals' command rating. You will face tough fleets later so you need them admirals true sea wolves :)
3. Prepare for the Genghis Khan style - ask the Pope to initiate a PR for a crusade to antioch, Jerusalem - a city in Palestine - you will be the first to arrive there obviously :)
- hire those badass crusader units - full stack.
- get your objective.
- now ... we begin the vandalism in the area :P Target Egypt and sack their cities, selling the remaining buildings after you get the cities - you will make fortunes, because Egypt is so rich, they musta built nice high level buildings by then. Bear in mind that your former crusader units now cost astronomically to upkeep - you will be prolly on negative cash but you could care less - just continue your rampage and set Egypt back into the stone age. Meanwhile, withthe huge plunders, build up your home towns and armies and be prepared to react should the milanese, venetians and the various local punkasses dare to bother you in any way.

Leave the egyptian cities ungarrisoned - they will rebel, which is good because you can talk pope into setting up another crusade - good for those units in your mid east stack (experience).
The costs are immense to upkeep your mid east task force so soon you need another plunder target - turks, byzantines(especially) any rich ass in the med should be targeted. Do not bother to keep the cities - just target some neighbours and plunder everything - you will be slowing them down to a point that they will never be able to recover...and you can take posession of their cities later to claim the win.

In my experience, if you let them build up for too long, they'll eventually be at least on par with you and perhaps sometimes better and you're in for some tough survival fights. Going on a rampage so early, while your home town continue to expand thanks to your plunders, will make you probably the most powerful force in the med.

I even eploy this vadalic style when I play the Byzantines even i got no crusades to take part in . I simply rely on huge mercenary armies with some core byz units and lay waste to everyone around me - meanwhile the cash inflow will insure my cities will thrive and ready to support the second part of the game - the conquest :)

hellraiser

08-14-2007, 12:10

ah forgot to mention - playing this way takes away a bit of the subtleties of the game - I mean this is a tactic based on lightning fast actions, pure brute force and nothing more. Things like vice and virtues, proper army composition (just be careful to include some infantry so you can siege:P ), etc etc are irrelevant. All that matters is to be ruthless, fast ... in a word a b!tch to everyone else around :) The mogol invasion will be a declaration of love compared to what you had caused to the world several years back :)

Mete Han

08-17-2007, 13:48

BadGenome

08-17-2007, 14:29

In a game when I was sicily in vh vh I experienced something I did not notice or experience before: my armies started to lose man while they were marching from tunis to algiers. I mean my militias started as 75 at the beginning of the journey but by the time I got to my target their numbers were down to 69 or something like that and alos my knights suffered the same. There was no plague or I was not being sieged since the army was out in the field, so how can this happen? Also I never experienced (or notice again) that my armies depleted while they were being sieged in a town while playing with other factions. Would like to hear your ideas and experiences?

Your garrisons will suffer from attrition while under siege, but I can't think of any reason why an army in the field should if you're certain they weren't suffering from the plague. Are you sure they weren't hit by any kind of natural disaster? Those coastal areas can get mighty stormy! :scared:

Mete Han

08-17-2007, 16:19

Your garrisons will suffer from attrition while under siege, but I can't think of any reason why an army in the field should if you're certain they weren't suffering from the plague. Are you sure they weren't hit by any kind of natural disaster? Those coastal areas can get mighty stormy! :scared:

Absolutely no natural disaster or anything was apparent. By the way are there any upgrades that would stop the attrition effect you mentioned under siege because I think I never experienced it during my Turks campaign in which I achieved total domination. Maybe I wasn't besieged that much? Curious!!!

BadGenome

08-17-2007, 16:50

Absolutely no natural disaster or anything was apparent. By the way are there any upgrades that would stop the attrition effect you mentioned under siege because I think I never experienced it during my Turks campaign in which I achieved total domination. Maybe I wasn't besieged that much? Curious!!!

It could be. The number of troops lost during a siege seems to vary a good deal, and sometimes you won't lose any at all during a turn. I'm not really sure what effects it, such as farming upgrades, health bonuses, squalor, etc. Sounds like something for somebody to research! :book:

Attrition in the field seems very odd, though. Just a shot in the dark, as this is my only other guess - you're not playing with any mods, are you? A few of them have incorporated features to simulate the demands of keeping an army supplied. I assume the consequences of not doing this properly would be similar to what you've experienced, and Tunis to Algiers is one hell of a march. :beam:

Mete Han

08-18-2007, 08:17

I am playing 1.0 with no mods. But thanx anyway... I am really looking forward to the Kings though and hope that it does not have many bugs.

Patricius

08-21-2007, 14:07

You should have 1.2. 1.0 does have some problems.

Brusilov

08-24-2007, 12:56

You should have 1.2. 1.0 does have some problems.

Yes, I agree - playing M2:TW on 1.02 (as CA refer to it) is a different game completely. The AI does aggressive naval invasions (some are logical others are not - Spain/Portugal have a magical attraction to Dublin/Canaervon).

Holding onto Corsica and/or Sardinia becomes a major headache as many factions continually invade these islands.

Empirate

08-24-2007, 13:50

Corsica and Sardinia are good to have! I like that the AI tries to invade, it feels realistic. I hold onto Sardinia at the moment, but Corsica went to the Pope before I got there. It has changed hands one or two times in between, but now His Hatness calls it a part of the Patrimonium Petri again.
Some naval invasions that would make perfect sense don't seem to happen, though. I've yet to see somebody else than Sicilians in Sicily - and this counts all campaigns I've been playing. Sicily is really juicy, trade-wise. Why doesn't the AI go there? Dublin, OTOH, is just a stupid move for the Portuguese (who always seem to end up there even after being kicked out of Iberia).

Si GeeNa

10-11-2007, 09:06

Hello All,

I find the Sicilian game to be a very opportunistic one.

My first Council of Nobles mission saw me land in Durazzo for a quick battle. After conquering this village, I was intending to gift it to the Pope as I was concerned that the Byzantine will wage war over this common border.

However, when I received the Byzantine Princess in Durazzo, I made the offer to marry my Faction Heir to her and she agreed. This secured my Eastern border so to speak.

Having allied with other factions, I noticed a Venetian army land next to Durazzo and anticipating a siege in their next move, I attacked them first. As they were still in the beach area, it was a very quick slaughter.

Next up, Venice was ex-comm ( They tend to raise hell against Milan, HRE and Sicily all at the same time.) and I raised a Crusade to Ragusa, which ended in the next turn.

Another couple of turns lapsed, in which I was busily handling the Moors in Naples, and I raised another Crusade to Venice itself.

This time round, I was unable to conquer Venice, as the Poles pipped me to it but I had a relatively large standing army. Where to next?

While manuevering my army towards Zagreb, I realised, through my Princess, that Rome and Florence has fallen to Venice. So I moved my army quickly to capture Rome.

Having done so, my Princess approached Venice for a Ceasefire and Florence, in return for some Florins per turn. It worked!

The Venetian Powerhouse is now broken. They have Milan, Genoa, Bern, i.e., ex Milan provinces.

The Milanese have entered into French- HRE areas.

Another opportunistic crusade was declared on HRE Bologna. Another opportunisitc land grab.

It has been quite a fulfilling game so far, from my earlier concerns about Byzantine, Moorish, Venetian enemies to none. The Byzantine was allies for a period of time before getting wiped clean by Hungarians.

The Moors are habitually invading Naples but so far it's just target practise.

The Pope? He's got booted to Corsica and Sardinia. He asked me to return Rome, I told him I'll use it as my capital from hereon.

In a previous incarnation, I got stuck in Tunis and Sardinia. Couldn't get a proper game going. All my diplomats were bribed over by Moors.

TheLastPrivate

10-25-2007, 05:19

Are the dism. norman knights any different from DFKs? I see the stats are nearly the same but are they different in terms of mass, morale, and such?

rvg

11-08-2007, 19:10

This was my first game with the sicilians and boy, it's been fun. VH game/Medium Battles 1ypt.

Instead of playing out the usual Tunis/Cagliari/Aiaccio gambit I decided to head straight for the Holy Land.

Turn 1. Consolidated all soldiers that I could spare and sent them towards my Adriatic fleet.

Turn 2. Kiss up to the Pope to get 9 crosses on the meter and immediately declare crusade on Antioch. Packed up most of my army and sent them off...

Turn 4. I must have forgotten that I was playing on VH: all my neighbors, sensing how thin my defences were descended upon my 2 provinces...

Turn 7. Antioch is mine, but my income is deep in the red. Sent what I could to grab Aleppo.

Turn 8. Repelled a castle assault on Palermo, but just barely: lost the King.

Turn 9. Lost Naples to a Byzantine full stack vs my one family general + 1 unit of spear militia. Didnt stand a chance. The good news is, Naples' sacrifice wasn't in vain....its troops are now guarding Palermo.

Turn 11. Antioch is my new capital, I have Aleppo and an army en route to Damascus.

Turn 13. Another heroic defence of Palermo nets me a MoTH with good traits.
All of my navy and all of my buildings in Palermo are scrapped to improve funds.

Turn 15. Damascus is mine. Sacked it (something I ormally do not do) for some badly needed cash. Bought some mercs for protect Palermo and started to build up the economy in Antioch.

Turn 19. Somebody declares a crusade on Egyptian-held Jerusalem. I waste no time and jump in with every man I can muster.

Turn 21. yet another assault on Palermo repelled. Venetians ask for peace. Peace granted for 1000 florins.

Turn 22. Jerusalem is mine! Got paid by the pope AND sacked the city. Good times, I might actually survive this campaign. GrabbedWhatever trrops I could and sent them to take Acre. Can't have an Egyptian stronghold in the middle of my lands. Finally got enough cash to build a fortress in Palermo. Both Byzantines and Moors asked for peace. Peace granted, cash transferred.

Turn 25. Hospitallers ask for a minor chapter house in Antioch. Granted. Man, it's good to finally have some money.

Turn 26. Egyptians are flushed out of Acre. I now have a fortress in outremer right smack in the middle of my kigdom. Perfect.

Turn 27. Sent and army to grab rebel Edessa. Economy is humming along quite nicely.

Turn 28. JIHAD!!! Oh, this one is to Baghdad...*whew*. Lucky me.

Turn 29. Moors break peace and assault Palermo... say hello to Dismounted Norman Knights. I will never have to worry about Palermo again, as now I have both the cash and the men to protect my one and only European posession.

Turn 30. Grabbed Edessa. Now it is time to sit back, relax and build up. The Crusader Kingdom of Sicily is secure, at least for the time being... Oh, what's that? Oh, that's just a full stack of my trusted allies the Milanese landing on the beach near Palermo. They can't POSSIBLY be thinking about backstabbing me, now can they? *queues up more Dismounted Norman Knights*...

Anonymous II

11-26-2007, 21:34

I haven't bothered to read all the posts in this thread, but I still have some views to add to the intial strategy for Sicily.

It's obvious that Corsica and Sardinia is a natural place to expand to. You have also discussed whether to take these islands or Tunis (which also is a natural target) first. I would say none of the above. Especially Cagliari (Sardinia) and Tunis won't be targetet by other factions for a while. Milan will eventually go for Ajaccio (Corsica) since their Council of Nobles ask them to do so. BUT! Florence is a target both for Milan, HRE and Papal States, so you would want to take that city first (unless you are OK with waging war with other factions early on), then Ajaccio.

I also think the best thing to do here is to turn Florence into a castle since Milan will be on your back pretty soon. I agree with those who say Palermo should be turned into a city since it will bring you lots of revenues.

What to do with the castles in Ajaccio, Cagliari and Tunis is a matter of taste in my opinion.

:study:

Rhyfelwyr

11-26-2007, 23:14

I find Palermo does the job for recruitment until you get deeper into enemy territories. If you go Westward Granada is an ideal castle as it covers Spain and north Africa. To the north, you're best to take Bern or Innsbruck if you get sucked into wars with the 3 north Italian players. If you go east into the Balkans, Raqusa is ideal for a castle until you see off the Venetians, Sofia is also ideal as it is near Byzantine territory and protects the inevitable Hungarian onslaught from the north.

Do not take Ajaccio if you play in v1.2! Not until Milan, Spain, and Portugal are well beaten. During my yo-yo conquests of Ajaccio, armies from Spain, Portugal, and Milan were all present on the Island, not to mention my Papal allies who conquered it from the Spanish once, only to loose it to the Portuguese and allow my Normans to step in.

I wanted to play the role of the crusader in this campaign, but Ajaccio got me sucked into norther conflicts, and although I defeated the Moors I'm now fighting wars in France, and have not even set foot in the Holy Land, which has just been completely over-run by the Mongols.

As for the armies, a combination of Norman Knights / Muslim Archers is a force to be reckoned with using repeat charges and fire arrows to demoralise the enemy. And your cities, vital to the sea trade, can be reasonably protected with decent Italian militia.

Jan Huss

03-22-2008, 21:48

First post here, so place nice :yes:

I found Sicily a dream to play (H/H, BigMap mod). Having played a number of other campaigns, usually all an uphill struggle, it was nice to pick and choose your own fights.

Firstly, you have a nice defensible positon. BigMap gives you the incredible advantage of THREE extra towns to take, and the only real competition is seafaring Venice. I took them al fairly soon, but they were just an annoying diversion this early as they were worth nothing, and meant my Kings army in Naples couldnt do anything.

Paramount to my success was taing Ajaccio and Cagliari. Yes, they are the cause for quitea few wars, but mainly only with Milan (at least in my game). And what happens when a catholic nation attacks the Popes best mate (since you share a border, and presumedly have an alliance with him..)? Thats right, excommunication, and open house on Milans lands. Then you replace Milan as chief pain in North Italy, starting a war with Venice that wasnt hard for me to finish, and sue for peace, gifting the Pope Zara for a buffer against Venetian reprisals.

Whilst I swatted the North Italians with my back hand, I needed to keep Papal favour up whilst expanding. For that I called a crusade against Tripoli, but only after positioning a large force with 2 generals outside of Marrakesh. Even with many cities, my economy was close to the wall, but once the crusade had begun, I just swept the Moorish lands up, sacking and installing puppet militia behind. Roger had finished claiming rebels by then, and finished the crusade whilst the majority of my troops were still in Tunis. Oh well, North Africa was mine!

I had a good peace with France and Germany going after gifting Zagreb and Bern away (they were too far out and isolated to readily keep, and I wanted secure borders), so I turned my attention at shutting down my border further.

Waltzing into the Iberian peninsula was easy, and I took Cordoba, Granada and valenciav with hardly a struggle. However that left me with borders with Spain and Portugal, and I dislike sharing borders at all, never mind with people i didnty have alliances with... One quick alliance with Spain, a small greasing of palms here, and soon Portugal was crushed, with Spain doing the majority of the work, but me owning Porto, Lisbon, Sevilla and Zaragoz. Not sure how that worked out, but Im not complaining!

But still, Spain was now weak, and i wanted more land. Luckly, Leon wasnt defended at all, so I sent an army up to Porto to strike. By curiosity I tried bribing Leon first, and netted it for the low price of 30,000 florins. It almost drained me of cash, but it pissed Spain off a lot, they started a war, got excommed, and i didnt lose rep. Genius. Add Castille and Pamplna to my cities, and trade Bordeaux for Narbonne.

I now owned two defensible peninsulas and the land at their back door, am on good relations with the three nations I directly border (Egypt doesnt count as it is many turns march/sail away, unless I include the likes of Scotland and England as 'neighbours')

My next moves to claim my victory conditions is to convert Africa at the force of the sword (just for lulz), claim the quagmire of the British Isles (which are quite expanded in BigMap, and are currently in a 4 way Battle Royale between Denmark, Scotland, England and what remains of Portugal), and then call for a crusade to the Holy Land. Im trying to win with the Pope on my side (seeing as I have a Sicilian Pope and 9 cardinals...), so Im going to conquer most of the Holy Lands, gift to Pope, wait till he moves capital there, the trade Antioch and Acre for Rome. That, or gift him Ireland. He deserves that blasted hellhole!

penguinking

05-06-2008, 05:54

Sicily is an extremely fun faction to play as. You have an easily defensible base and are in a fairly rich area. The first thing I did was convert Palermo to a city. I then grabbed Tunis and Florence, converting Tunis to a city as well. As Sicily, you have some nice castle units, but early on they really weren't necessary- you're Italian militia units are quite adequate, together with mercenaries. I sent my princess to the HRE and bought Bologna. I took Sardinia, Corsica, and Tripoli, converting both castles to cities. I declared a crusade against Jerusalem and sacked the city. I then either purchased or conquered six other cities in the area. Public order was difficult to maintain, but eventually I got all the provinces around 65% catholic, which helped, as did my 10-chivalry generals. At this point, Venice and Milan attacked me and were excommunicated. I took all of Venice's cities (except crete) and Genoa in retaliation; unfortunately, Milan was reconciled before I could take Milan.
My general advice would be to convert castles to cities to help your economy. Also, give the Pope money to stay in favor with the Pope, and try to get at least four or five cardinals to win you the next Papal election. Also, do not take Durazzo. You will regret it. That instantly plunges you into a two front war with Venice and the Byzantines early in the game, while your economy in still bad. This can be managed, but it is extremely difficult.

kitbogha

05-26-2008, 20:08

Hi fellow Sicilians,
Just finished as the Moors and wanted something a little different, so I thought I'd try Sicily. I have not yet played a proper seafaring nation and this one seems pretty exciting. Thanks for the advice, I will let you know how I get on and any contributions I can make.
regards
Kitbogha

Seamus Fermanagh

05-27-2008, 01:48

I took Durazzo quickly -- since I was expecting it, my fleet was en route with some troops prior to the council declaring the objective -- and gleefully pocketed the florins for my nascent economy.

Recognizing from an earlier Venetian campaign that attempting to hold Durazzo meant war with both the Byzantines and Venetians early on, and being desirous of a good economy prior to such a conflict, I gave Durazzo to the Holy Father as part of an: alliance, map, military access both ways, give Durazzo deal. High regard from the Pope and Durazzo was now somebody elses' problem.

Eventually led to an early excom for il Doge during which I was "forced" to relieve him of Venice in support of His Holiness. :evilgrin:

kitbogha

05-27-2008, 12:25

Nice campaign-played 24 turns last night and all is going according to plan. I am now the proud owner of Milan, Genoa, Tunis, Bologna, Florence, Ajaccio and Cagliari in addition to the original starting settlements. Milan made the mistake of attacking Ajaccio (and being beaten back with huge losses from my meagre garrison) and seeing as I am the Popes' best mate they have paid dearly. One quickly declared crusade later and within two turns they are two settlements down! I am aware that I am leaving my garrisons stretched rather thin so the next turns will be consolidation and planning.

I am enjoying this campaign immensely! More later.

MORE:
Turn 71, 17 provinces and about to take Timbuktu next turn. My dominion of the Italian peninsula is complete and also North Africa (up to the borders of the Egyptians, who will be my next targets after the Moors are rooted out of Iberia).
have really concentrated on my manipulation of the Pope in this campaign with , I feel, great success.
I have simply waited for the soonest opportunity to ask for crusades (the button on Papal realtions menu lights up-check it every couple of turns.), picked a suitable strategic target, near which I have stationed my King accompanied by seven other units. I move in on the next turn and loading up with cheap crusading units, take the offending settlement.
It's childs play! My King is the veteran of four crusades and of course my realtions with the Pope are perfect, I get to safely declare war on targets of my choice and am paid for it by the Pope, while there is no comeback for attacking other Catholics!!! The other factions make it ludicrously easy by not playing along with Il Pape's wishes. It is made easier, possibly by my factions geographical location-right next to the traitorous Milanese and Viennese, who play into my trap time and time again. Even if they are being good, the Moors or other Muslim factions can be selected as targets. The other positive of this ploy is that you never get sent on crusades to The Holy Land, as crusades can only be declared evry so often.
This is definately the way to go, if you want to get all Machiavellian-and let's face it why play the game if you don't? I haven't even had to load the College of Cardinals with Sicilians, which would in itself be quite easy with all the converting of Muslims I am doing in North Africa.
God I love this game....

MORE:
Turn 102-27 provinces are now mine. The AI tried a nasty trick on me around turn 96, I was besieging one of the French towns, secure in the knowledge that this was ok, as they had been excommunicated and as I attacked the city a message came up which I only read after the battle, saying that they had been readmitted in the Churchs' good graces. My approval rating with the Pope went from perfect to mediocre overnight. Could I get a Crusade commissioned against any of my preferred targets? No way.
Luckily, I listened to the advice of my fellow Generals on this site and accepted the mission from my Council of Barons (or whatever they're called) to take Durazzo-that troublesome province-took it and gifted it to the Pope who was so grateful my approval went back to perfect. Next turn, my proposal to Crusade against Lisbon was suddenly a great idea and away we went again..... so, a big "thank you " for the advice.
I am nearly half way through the game and so far all of the Crusades have been dictated by my faction, half of my Generals are titled "the Crusader", my armies are crammed with cheap crusading troops, the Pope loves me and I have yet to be sent to the Middle East!
I have now loaded the College of Cardinals with around eight of my people, no real intent to do so, but my expansion in North Africa has meant mass conversions-which is always nice....can't wait for the aged Pole in the Vatican to die so I can get a Sicilian in charge again.
My next moves are:
1) Take Bruges from the Danes, who are out of favour with the church. I am currently besieging it.
2) Mop up Leon, Pamplona and the other province in the Pyrenees (whose name escapes me), thus wiping out the Portuguese-maybe even get one of them on a Crusade. Two armies are moving south from Toulouse through the mountains as I speak.
3) If noone else is p***ing me off by this point, I will turn to Egypt, who I imagine are being troubled by our friends The Mongols by now, I will know better soon as I am sending a few priests on conversion duties to soften up the enemy.

I am dying for gunpowder to be invented, it always surprises me how late in the game this comes.

The Black Sheep

06-01-2008, 18:57

Sicily is definitely my favourite faction. This sea-fearing nation is my most chosen faction, with Spain right after that.

Currently I’m playing on VH/H with 1.03 version and changed the time table to 1 year/turn. And I love it!

Opening moves

I’m a very defensive player, something I don’t see much on this forum, so maybe I have an alternative tactic than most of you. Money always seems to be a bit tight in the beginning, so my first focus is on economics. For this purpose I transform Palermo into a city early on. It may cost some money, but it pays back right after a few turns. Another benefit that it brings is you don’t have to upgrade your castle into a fortress early on, when you don’t even have the money.

The first Council of Nobles mission sends you to Durazzo, and as a reward you’ll get 2500 florins. That means money that can be taken. This is my first goal of conquest. A little detail: I’m always switching Prince Simon with Alberto as general and governor. The reason for this act is a look in the future. Simon grows a far better faction heir if you do not let him rot in Palermo, but send him into some fights. If you don’t do anything special with him, he will be just an average king later in the game, and not a good one.

Meanwhile you must take attention for the region of Naples. Later in the game the Holy Roman Empire will always be bothering you there, so I often place a fort between the eastern seaside and the mountains, securing that flank as well. Also engage an alliance with the Pope, he will be your best friend in the game. You princess Mathilda is well suited to be a diplomat, but as soon as she has 4 or 5 charm, I advise to marry her to Alberto, making him part of the royal family. With 5 charm Mathilda and Alberto form an ideal breeding station, and offspring will soon fill your family tree.

One you’ve taken Durazzo, gift it to the Pope or ask some money for it. This will increase your standing with him, and makes your eastern border secured. With a bit of luck the Byzantines will attack Durazzo sooner or later, than you can step in and play saving angel by aiding the Pope in battle, witch maintains your position as best friend of The Papal states, with al the benefits with it. The army that returns from Greece can be retrained first, and then send after Tunis. Cagliari is very often already taken by other factions.

Tunis can be captured in a crusade, but on VH/H the Pope does not always sees the benefit of crusading into North Africa. Slaughtering the incoming Moors however is a good way of pleasing the Pope and gets your priests to cardinals by converting Islamic regions. I mostly keep Tunis a castle, because it will be attacked quite often. The harbour however can be improved, making a trading triangle between Tunis, Palermo and Rome. From now on, your economics will most probably be running up, so you can improve your army.

Catholic wars

From this point in the game (around turn 20) you’ll have to deal with a Catholic faction. The Holy Roman Empire is often putting naval pressure upon you, but as soon as they are out of Italy, the form no threat anymore, except of some assassins and spies around Naples. As soon as the northern Italians have bounced the HRE back into Germany, you better restore relations.
After that, go after one of the islands in the north, Ajaccio or Cagliari. Sometimes one of them is under Papal rule, so out of option. Make the castle into a city for a strong economic position.

Often the Islands are controlled by Italian factions, so maybe waging a war on them is necessary. If you do this, make sure that your fort near Naples is well filled with garrison. Sometimes the Milanese or Venetians decide to step inside your borders near Naples. Holding the fort will prevent this. Meanwhile you have to maintain your naval supremacy, so block the docks of the factions you’re at war with.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Tomorrow I’ll continue my Sicilian chronicles and write another post here.

WarMachine187

06-03-2008, 06:53

Yeh,sicily was alot of fun.First thing i did was conquer the islands and push for normans.Then i got into a war with pope and went on to conquer rome.Suprisingly,no other christian faction attacked me, and all my alliances are still intact.From there i went deeper into italy and started a war wit the HRE.Norman sicilians easily outmatch most of the early infantry in italy.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-03-2008, 21:09

Snoil The Mighty

06-04-2008, 06:22

Trying an odd strategy.

Have conquered a number of provinces, but have given/traded with the Papal states until the Papacy controls a broad circle of provinces completely walling off mine (Marseille, Genoa, Milan, Stauffen, Bern, Innsbruck, Nuremburg, Venice, Florence, Ragusa, Durazzo, Corinth, Rome, Ajaccio, Caralis, Palermo, Naples, & Rome (traded to me for 2 provinces) from the other Catholic factions and the Byzantines. My trade florins are ridiculously good. I have then moved against the Moors in Spain (Granada) and North Africa. If I acquire Bordeaux and give it to the Papacy, and if Spain attacks me to take Granada (as I suspect), then I'll add all of Iberia and North Africa to the total, with most of the rest of Europe and the Islamists unable to say "boo."

Not such an odd strategy, one I stumbled upon 100% by accident once I got everything reloaded and got some vital gaming time to kill. I similarly walled myself off in one of the first campaigns I'd played in over a year and while pondering how to get around it without stepping on my best (and only real) allies' toes I decided to give everything a once-over. Then I noticed just how flush with florins I really was (I was spending like a drunk in Vegas), given the fact that I was either late in the early game, or early in the midgame depending on point of view. Having the Bishop of Rome on nearly the totality of my borders, and another region or two nearby by sea seemed to have a very nice impact on trade and allowed me to maintain a much better navy than I was used to for this relatively early stage. I think by having so many friendly ports-of-call it makes it that much more lucrative for the routes that get generated (not to mention my merchants can camp out in relative safety on high price goods in trade-friendly territory). I am close to finishing up this one now actually, so away to battlements!

floydsvoid123

11-26-2008, 05:01

First post.
I'm playing a M/M 1.0 unmodded Sicily game and it looks like the opening steps for Sicily are even more crucial than for other factions. Factions like Milan have rich cities that can help them support early troops and building, but factions like Sicily and Portugal tend to begin with an economic disadvantage that means your early troops won't be replaced for a few turns, and you can't get stronger troops until your economy kick-starts.

I went the islands way, ignoring Durazzo as I had no intention of fighting the Byzantines until I had some proper units to throw at them. Palermo I kept as a castle, and Naples (obviously) as a city. I split my navy, shipped my field general in Sicily to Sardinia, and my garrison + general in Palermo to Corsica. My general and garrison in Naples went to Florence. The great thing about Sicily is that you can throw pretty much all your troops into your expansion effort without fear of attack upon your base.

After building a bowyer in Palermo (to prep for recruiting muslim archers) and a town guard in Naples (I'd be needing those spear militias), and a few units in Palermo and spies in Naples to help with the sieges, my treasury went red. But before that happened I made sure I got on the Pope's good side. For some reason several of the factions seem to think trade rights with Sicily is generous (and alliance even more so), so I took advantage and sold trade rights for about 1000 florins. Never happened to me with Milan or any other faction. My princess's charm rose by 3 or 4 points, and I had outstanding relations. I decided to save alliance for when I needed to recover Papal trust (which I would have to, considering my expansion plans against the Italian factions).

Once I captured Sardinia and Corsica (or Ajaccio and Cagliari if you prefer), my money started coming back quickly, and once I captured Florence I was out of the red. I converted both islands to towns for money, and built with town guards as a priority. In Italy you shouldn't leave any settlement empty...ever. The towns are far too close together for comfort, giving you much less leeway than, say, the Iberian Peninsula or Northern Europe (I do sometimes keep settlements in those areas near-empty for financial reasons). Make use of those superior militia...most of you will already know that Italian spear militia are the equivalent of mercenary spearmen but for one point of defense.

Now here's where things got a little strange. Apparently Milan didn't get that message about leaving your towns ungarrisoned. When I first sent troops to capture Florence my spy noticed that for some inexplicable reason Milan had left Genoa ungarrisoned. I would have captured it instead of going for Florence, but I ran out of moves and Milan reinforced it with 1 militia by the next turn. Because I was bankrupt I didn't want to deal with Milan and their superior position and crossbows, so I just went for Florence.

Once my finances were stable and I was busily upgrading in all of my cities (I recommend militia buildings first, then small churches, land clearance, then grain exchange, port before clearance if available), I decided to get me Bologna to boost trade, income, and have a land route from Naples to northern Italy. I bought it for 1100 florins over 15 turns (probably overpaid, but I was filthy rich anyway), and the HRE left Italy. Never go against Bologna using your military - it is almost always fully stacked, and most of the units aren't even militia. They're the castle equivalents. Using your treasury to buy Bologna will probably be better financially than rebuilding your armies from scratch and regarrisoning your now empty cities.

So I now had a nearly full stack of units that I was originally going to assault Bologna with wandering around. I send my spies to look for new targets...and what do you know. Genoa is empty once more.

I sent my general from Florence to capture it bloodlessly, and my stack to reinforce it. It didn't get there quite as fast as I would have preferred - Milan had a full stack of units including siege weapons poised within walking distance of Genoa - but for some reason they didn't attack, so I got a whole city, once of the richest in the game, for free. It meant breaking my alliance with Milan, but I've effectively crippled them, so what are they going to do.

Side note: Buying Bologna somehow also left me with a garrison there of about 6 or 7 Mercenary Frankish Knights. Well, if you really insist on giving them to me...

Since militia are more than enough most of the time during the early battles, I had put off on upgrading Palermo. The primary reason for upgrading Palermo would be Muslim Archers, but Pavise Crossbow Militia fill quite a bit of their role rather nicely and for less florins. City Guards were a priority in cities, Bowyer series in Palermo.

In the south, I took over Tunis probably a few turns after the Moors took it. It was lightly defended, and considering my empire the Moors begged for ceasefire within a few turns. It didn't hurt that the Moors were undoubtedly too busy with Spain to deal with me. I took Algiers, a very well developed castle by this point (this is probably before turn 30 or 35) that could train Muslim Archers, and turned Tunis into a city. Algiers will serve as the strongpoint agaisnt any possible Moorish invasions, and once I've stabilized the area (maybe taken the castles in southern Iberia to use for unit factories), I'll turn it into a city and engage in some Mediterranean trade. My clergy is working feverishly to convert the population, and I have no doubt once Gregory dies, there will be a Sicilian in Rome to do whatever I say whenever I say it.

Summary: The island settlements are a must. Durazzo isn't for me, but the more experienced could probably pull it off. Naval competence is key in the early game. Palermo is pretty much the only castle you'll need. Florence is a great help, attack it before Milan does. Buy Bologna. Pavise crossbow militia can substitute until Muslim archers come in. Keep those ports built. Never leave a settlement empty. Bring a lot of spies - all that you can afford. Your princess is an amazing diplomat. And use your incredible treasury and military strength to force the Moors to beg for peace.

Have fun, I certainly will once I get those Norman Knights.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-26-2008, 15:39

Go ahead and take the mission to grab Durazzo for the cash.

THEN

Give it to his holiness ("You truly have our....") and let him faff about with the Byzantines while you island-up for the economy.

Don't wait too long to build up with the Sicilians. Your early-on dismounted foot knights are better than the other folks' dismounted feudals, so hammer away.

floydsvoid123

11-27-2008, 06:18

Update:
Just took Milan and Venice. Milan had a full garrison and a full stack of units right outside the city, but for some reason had next to no Genoese crossbow militias in those armies. I used the bridges to destroy the outside stack, getting huge amounts of experience and releasing prisoners for chivalry. I know a lot of people say don't release prisoners because you'll have to fight them again, but as my economy was booming and I could easily replace/retrain all of my units, I decided to go for the extra chivalry, which I'll use to help get me a crusader knight's guild, maybe in Florence, so I can defend Northern Italy more easily.

Venice was less garrisoned but tends to be more difficult to assault because of the large armies wandering its area. You should never attack Venice without being ready to take it that turn, otherwise a full stack 5< star general will trap you on the bridge connecting the island city to the mainland. It's not a bridge battle either, so you'll have to be prepared to lose a lot of units that you shouldn't have to lose.

Once I took Venice, I was almost rolling in riches. My cities were beginning to upgrade to large cities, and Palermo upgraded to a citadel for Chivalrics. My island cities began to upgrade so I could finally get that trade triangle really going. The only thing was that Venice kept coming back for their city, and I almost lost it to a force of 3 catapults and 3-4 units of spear/italian militia because my garrison consisted of only 4 pavise crossbow militia and 1 spear militia. Thankfullly I managed to block their only breach into the city and once they routed, I used my 28 or so crossbowmen left to fire at the catapults from behind (they eventually ran out of ammo, but they would't leave until I shot at them).

My northern Italian cities have upgraded to militia drill squares now, so I believe defending will be much easier with halberd militia. I plan to use them for offense as well - spear militia are very good and have lower upkeep, but the offensive uses of a long spear wall are lessons I remember very well from Rome: Total War.

Guilds are coming in fast. Bologna I plan to use for an Assassin's guild because its position near both Rome (the papacy is undoubtedly mine for several turns yet, but just in case I need to remove him) and the training opportunities of Northern Italy. Venice and Genoa have gained a Merchant's Guild since they are the two provinces most heavily dependent on trade in the game. Milan now has a cathedral and a Theologian's guild, ensuring that I will all but dominate the College of Cardinals. It doesn't hurt that the Byzantine Empire is so near with its missionary opportunities. Florence, as I said, will gain a Crusader Knight's guild, and I might call a crusade on one of the Moorish cities (maybe Tripoli to add to the trade triangle). Palermo I plan to get a Horse Breeder's guild in, as it will provide most of my heavy cavalry. The same could go for Bern once the Papal ban on attacking Milan is lifted, or I could go for a swordsmith's guild instead. If I take Ragusa (i.e. If I decide to go after the Byzantines - probably after I recruit a sizable Pike-Crossbow-Heavy Cavalry force), I'll probably use it to go for a Mason's guild - I could use the bowyer series to get extra points for it before converting to a city, in the meantime using it as a base for conquering the Balkans. As for Naples, Tunis, and the islands, a merchant's guild is probably a safe bet. Tunis might also be a good spot for an alchemist's guild once it comes into play considering the central position of its port (Iraklion would be another nice spot).

Have about 15 priests in Marrakesh right now - one turn got it from 0% to 46% Catholic. Massive Growing Faith bonuses.

I'll keep you updated!

Kiron Drayga

12-20-2008, 08:12

The fun for playing Sicily, for me at least, is how every game as Sicily is a completely unique, independent experience. With most other factions, there's a similar strategy you always follow to get from Point A to Point B. England is almost always going to consolidate Great Britain first, then march into France. Egypt is almost always going to expand into the Holy Land and react to crusades. Russia is almost always dominating the same corner of the map. You get the picture.

With Sicily, the central location and the relative security of sharing a substantial land border with the Papacy gives you the opportunity to react to in-game developments by going wherever the wind calls you. It's a liberating experience.

I'm on my second Sicily game now, after losing out with Venice. My first Sicily experience involved me purchasing Bologna from HRE, fighting off Venice, going into Durazzo to incite the wrath of the Byzantines, and taking out Constantinople. Sicily was only the second faction in M2TW I actually won the game (on my default setting of H/H) with (England was first.) My first Sicily experience had me expanding in the Byzantine's direction and, generally speaking, in that corner of the map, into places like Sofia and Budapest and Nicaea. The endgame was basically me, the Mongols (who had settled in Russia), France (they dominated the west, where I didn't expand much), and Egypt / the Timurids.

Now my second game as Sicily has...well...it's been nearly the opposite experience.

This time around I tried the buying-off-Bologna trick and it failed. I had no clue why, but I have a strict no-restarts (or reboot from autosaves) policy on my games (I'm a stickler for perfectionism), so when the Princess failed I decided not to bother. With Bologna out of the picture, I decided not to expand into Durazzo. Instead I did some moves similar to posts here -- converted Palmero into a town, took Florence out as soon as possible, got the Pope to commission a crusade into Tunis, took Tunis quickly, then gobbled Corsica and Sardinia. Milan (predictably) declared war, and I responded by taking Genoa. I was going to take Milan proper, too, but I was distracted when the Moors began a siege of my poorly-defended Corsica (!! -- I was surprised they went for Corsica before Sardinia), forcing me to re-prioritize.

I was just about to get ready for a fun trek into Algiers when another crusade was commissioned -- before I thought another crusade could be commissioned. Another faction beat me to the punch and chose Jerusalem. So I decided, let's do an African march with my king from Tunis to Jerusalem, taking every Egyptian and rebel settlement I find along the way!!

...And I was immediately disappointed to learn that Venice took Tripoli (!!) As a sidenote, I allied with both HRE and Venice shortly before Milan declared war; this proved to be a prudent move as I'm pretty sure HRE and Venice will just turn traitor when they feel like it anyway, but right now I have enough enemies to worry about. Strangely, in this game Venice controls its starting settlements and Tripoli (that giant swab of useless african desert between Tunis and Egypt)...and nothing else. No incursions into Byzantium, no push into Hungary. A strange turn of events for Venice.

Anyway, I marched through Venice's Tripoli territory with my king and crusaders, while my cadre of priests were taking the long journey as well (I wanted to convert Alexandria to Christianity as soon as I knocked the stuffing out of the Egyptians.) Weirdly, perhaps my priests' presence and their conversions actually helped my relations with Venice, which only improved to "Perfect" while my Crusaders were marching in their territory.

It took some expensive mercenaries (you won't find too many of the traditional crusading fare in Africa) but I ended up taking Alexandria, Cairo, Gaza, and Jerusalem by turn 35...not bad. Actually, it's the best I've ever done in a crusade, but it's also the earliest I've ever had a crusade reach the Holy Land. (Mind you, I usually don't try for immediate crusades there in my games...maybe I should, as I really caught Egypt off-guard. Now Egypt controls only three settlements -- that southern Egypt one below Cairo that's mostly useless, Acre, and Damascus. Even Antioch is still currently a rebel settlement.) I did the smart thing and allied with the Turks, who now adore me. And I've found unrest comparatively manageable in my eastern settlements, in large part due to sending my cadre of Priests and Cardinals out there. Alexandria is already 70% Christian, Cairo is close to 50% Christian and I purchased two new Priests and a church that's working on Jerusalem too. (Can't care as much about Gaza as it's a castle, so they'll be content regardless.)

So now my Empire is turning into a one entirely reliant on a navy (even if I did wrest Tripoli from Venice, I'd still have to ship generals and units from Sicily / Naples to Egypt by boat...it's too long a journey on foot. Not to mention Corsica and Sardinia and the divide between my northern and southern Italian establishments.) And I haven't even reached turn 50!

Oh, and for the record? I can't even count how many times those Muslim Archers saved me. Muslim Archers saving a Catholic kingdom...ahh, the irony.

It's a completely different experience from my first Sicily game, though, and that's what I'm loving most about it.

RWT

01-24-2009, 17:29

This is my first post on the forums here, so I decided to make it about one of my absolute favorite factions to play, the Sicilians.

I generally begin by using my Palermo troops + a little from the garrison to charge Tunis. From there, you can swing north with the troops or use the Napolean force to take the islands, leaving Tunis with a sizeable garrison. If you have 1.2 or 1.3, keep Sardinia a castle to defend against the invariable Moorish/Milanese offensive. From there, motor on through North Africa, but keep an eye on your Eastern flank.

One other interesting strategy I saw here was to take Albania (The name slips my mind) and gift it to Il Papa.

Crusades are useful, but there's very little water between you and Egypt. As far as I've seen, Egypt has complete naval dominance in the south Mediterranean.

Long story short, defend your rear and :smash: East or West.

Sicily also has a number of challenging opportunities-

Drive north through Italy.
Push across the Adriatic, all the way to Poland.
Go southeast, Tripoli is closer to you than Cairo. Push to Egypt.
Take Rome. See how defensable your region really is.

Sicily is in a position to go anwhere in the Mediterranean. It's up to you.

I'll post a link to a sketch I did of a good strategy in the next post... first post rules.

RWT

01-24-2009, 17:34

Here's a link to an illustration I made in Powerpoint...

http://s435.photobucket.com/albums/qq75/RDubyaT/Medieval%202%20Total%20War%20File/?action=view&current=SicilyPlan.jpg

I believe I got the unit placement right. :2thumbsup:

willywilly

11-15-2009, 15:13

After a break of a year, I restarted playing M2TW, and with sicily.

Turn 1
I immediately sent the princess with the fleet to bologna. Naples began to construct a diplomat.
Alberto's army went with a galley to florence. The army from pamplona used another galley to go to tripoli. Pamplona is being converted to a city

Turn 2
Not much happens, troops/agents going to their destination.
sending the diplomat from naples to rome

Turn 3
buying Bologno for a regular tribute 1250 for 4 turns.
laying siege on florence.
negotiating with the the pope, giving him trade rights, map information and 25 times 100 florins a gift, but not an alliance. Relations outstanding and crusade to antioch.
Army that's sieging florence joined the siege and spent all the florins i got on merc.

next turns
Florence is captured=> the isles under siege => tunis under siege => quit the crusade
attacking rome and killing the pope until your or one of your allies' cardinals become pope.
giving tripoli to the pope and you are rid of him.

Now i have the italian isle, allied with hungary, russia, portugal, france and hre.
Reputation very reliable.
the pope loves me.
I'm building out my castle to play the rest of the game with upper-tier units.

I choose my enemies from the ones who get excommunicated.

anyone with an idea what armies to use against my 'kill the mongols' campaign?

Chainsawfist

11-24-2009, 00:04

As a Sicilian American planning on buying MII:TW, I appreciate this guide.

Viking Prince

04-10-2010, 07:48

I enjoyed reading this guide. I have learned a bit as well as having a great read. I was surprised though that a particular opening strategy has not been mentioned.

When you play France, you will find the Sicilians show up on your doorstep in Marseilles pretty much as soon as possible. Why is this? Marseilles is a great city with wonderful potential for profit. When playing Sicily, why do the same strategy? It seems good to me. Sicily will quickly run out of cash (I think the AI gets scripted additions, though I am not certain). So here is what you should try:

Send the good princess up with the Adriatic fleet to make nice with Venice and HRE. Trade and alliances and you get florins -- florins to stave off the bankruptcy of Sicily. Train a diplomat to do the same with Rome and Milan. Yes, the Pope will be happy to hand you florins.

Build the ballista facility and the archery levels in Pamplona and tech up Naples. You want everything including the levels of armory available.

Keep your army in Naples in Naples. Combine your forces in and near Pamplona (leaving a general as garrison) using your Central Med fleet to invade Marseilles and then move the fleet to blockade Toulouse. Make certain you have your Italian alliances in place first.

Use your Adriatic fleet upon returning from Venice to move an army to take Durrazo (hopefully for 2500 florins). Do not waste time though. You need to be in possession of the castle for the next step.

After you take Marseilles (by occupation -- remember these are good Catholics), a French diplomat should arrive in Northern Italy. I think you should find the French will now be happy for a ceasefire. You will find that they are also willing to throw in Toulouse. Be certain to include a ten period tribute of 200fl, 1000 fl cash and trade. You want the French to be happy so that you will be able to ally with them later. Oh yes, make certain that you also include Durazzo in the trade/ceasefire as well. Nothing like that worthless castle in French hands to tie them into several future wars that you will be able to come to their aid in.

This will result in a duplicate of your starting potential on the Riviera which is very good population base. Now sit and tech up waiting for the eventual conflict in Northern Italy. The perfect storm would be war between Venice and Milan where you can side with Milan. And then when Milan launches into France, you will side with France to complete the conquest of Northern Italy.

If you are truly lucky, the Pope will gift you 500fl while you are at war with France.

dzidek

05-14-2010, 11:39

I started my Sicily campaign yesterday. I am about turn 50 or so, but i play 1year=1turn.

How do i play?

Well i start with makind Sicily (the island) a town. C'mon a naval province, with 4 trade resources, great naval trade options is a castle? Change it as fast as you can.
My diplomat goes through Papal states, Milan, Venice (he gets map and trade with all and ally with pope) to Bologna where he is pumped up so he buys it from the HRE with no problems.
I usually marry my princess to the French as they will be a good ally against the Milan and the Moors early.
One part of my army i take to Sardinia and corsica (the worse part of it), take both islands and make them cities. I take Florence with free units from Bologna. My best general (or generals) group the best units and go for a crused to Tunis. I sack the provice and leave it a castle. I think that north Africa beeing all castles is such a bonus to Sicily. You maintain the order more easily, and can train your army quickly in different spots. Before i go west though i beat the enemies first in the North of Italy. Venice and Milan field the same armies early. Lot's of spear militia and some crossbows with a general or two. You can field the same army yourself so it's up to you strategic genius to beat them :) I uusually wait for them to leave the city for some reason and then just jump it with superior forces, if you play it good Milan can be destroyed as they tend to move around Dijon with their main force, leving the cities unprotected. Venice will be a longer conflict, but i don't go to Durres so it's not a problem for me. The key alliances for ma are Pope, Hungary, HRE, France and Byzantines. Once i have all of italy except Rome + the two islands and Tunis i run a little 2 front war. I make Milan a castle, the trade is excellent so i can suffer less income, this way i'm protected well in Italy. I make a crusade for Marakesz from Tunis taking Algier on the way, then i block with the nave the road to Iberia. This allows me to slowly own all of West Africa, i take Tripoli earlier with a smaller normal foce and make it a city. It develops slowly and i don't need another castle so near. While my crusade rides through Africa, i take some developed troops and land a little naval attack on Iraklion to weaken the Venetians.

that how it looks at the moment. The Venetians have only Ragusa and Durres but the Byzantines are going to crucsh them soon. My alliances i mentioned earlier hold but there is some movement in Hungary and as i belive HRE and the Byzantines have allied against Hungary. In Africa i controll the coastline, the Moors are cut off in Iberia, i march slowly to Timbuktu and Arguin. I have a frtress in Milan, Tunis and Marakesz (switched with Algiers for a city for better troop management). All my castles produce the "norman" line of troops.
I have lot's of gold so i can support 4 full stacks of troops. I prepare now for a full attack on the Byzantium. They own Sofia so it's great as i can take it first with Coryth and cut the off from two sides at the same time.

As for the military. The bulk of the army are the "Norman" troops supported by armoured sergants and pavise crossbows and muslim archers. The good thing is that you can train your armies early on and you will use most troops to the end.

Viking Prince

05-20-2010, 01:58

@dzidek -- you did not mention Crusading to Cairo? I would think that Alexandria and Cairo would be an easy and profitable front to control with an early Crusade. Then is is only a ten turn wait (using the normal 3 years in 2 turns) for for your march to the west.

Myth

05-20-2010, 09:36

dzidek what difficulty are you playing on and how do you fight the Catholic factions early on without the Pope calling for a mass sodomy on your faction?

hellraiser

08-12-2010, 12:51

Started playing again after quite some time - vanilla 1.3
Started a game with Sicily, this time playing a more 'normal' game than my usual strategy of crusading to holy land first then use the troops there to lay waste to the whole civilized world, sacking and abandoning cities, getting rich and building up at home meanwhile.

Grand plan was to develop a powerful economy while campaigning in the process to make use of the troop quality advantage the normans have early on. I know it seems a bit weird since building up might mean less troops production but it worked somehow.

1. Get in touch with the pope and please him well (i know it may sound kinky but ...)
2. Keeping Palermo a castle! At least for a while. Despite the popular (and correct) view that Palermo must be converted to a cash cow asap i.e. turning into a city because of its fantastic trade opportunities, this time i had another ideea: Palermo needs only a few touches to start churning out Norman Knights and their dismounted version. Sicily's greatest military advantage in this game is the ability to field, i dare say, the best heavy cavalry and heavy infantry in the world in just a few turns (considering the early period that is). So I think it is better to exploit this feature from the headstart - Sicily's golden age is in the beggining and things start to decline in later periods when other factions become able to field superior quality troops and weaponry.
From this perspective, a natural way of playing this faction is to be aggressive from the beginning and make the most use of your initial advantage and getting prepared for the late era, that is having lots of cash for employing expensive modern mercenary units for example.
Another rationale for keeping Palermo a castle early on is its position (exact the one for which everyone loves it as a city:) ) - it provides quick access and reinforcement options for the areas you will expanding first.
Later, when your conquests take you to distant places, Palermo will be converted into a city after losing its military operations' close support role.
3. Obvious crusade to Tripoli, conversion to city - mass catholic propaganda initiated, tons of priest training there and in the additional moorish province.
4. Conquest of Cagliari and Ajaccio.
Cagliari converted into a city (it's potential nowhere as Palermo's but at this stage will do fine in getting the much needed florins)
Ajaccio left as castle - this is a province claimed by the milanese. I took it so early because I want the milanese to declare on me ASAP so i can kick their butts without having to ruin my relations with the Pope. Milan is one reason you want to push your initial advantage - they can become very strong so the sooner you take them out, the better. Their italian militia is no match for norman knights and dismounted norman knights at this stage.
The castle at Ajaccio has the role of producing ranged units while Palermo trains NK and DNK and occasionaly some armoured sergeants.
5. I have allied only with the French and the Pope so far - i don;t see a need for more alliances at this moment tbh.

These were the opening moves.
My long term plan is to use crusading opportunities at all times but to be careful not to damage irreparably the muslim factions in the east. Also to try and keep rather good relations with the byzantines (difficult one because at some point we will). The reason is that i want them strong enough to be able to absorb a fair chunk of the mongolian and perhaps timurid shock later on.
I will Focus my attention, after initial consolidation, on the northern italian states and the moors since these guys will attack you at some point no matter what.

Actually this is my 2nd attempt at this. The first one i made a terrible mistake (despite observing the general plan rather carefully) - i joined a crusade for Jerusalem but decided to land in southern sicilian held Tunis, take rebel Tripoli and walk to Jerusalem thru the northern african desert while bulding watchtowers along the way to have the fog removed. Very bad ideea :( Troops move extremely slow in those sands and in 3 turns my experienced NK and DNK started to desert en masse...

hellraiser

08-12-2010, 13:26

Another tip:

While norman knights and DNK are truly awesome be sure not to recruit too many of them. They are damn expensive to upkeep and if you recruit too many, your finances go down the drain instantly. Th egood thing is that in the beginning you don't really need many of them. Also their survival rate is very decent and you're better off retraining them and keep using the same units over and over rather than getting impatient and commit new troops to cover the losses. It takes a bit of time to ferry them over and retrain but it is better this way.

Typically, the army i used for the first turns is made up of 2 NKs, 3 DNKs, 2 armoured sergeants, 2 squire cavalry. You don't really need more even against Milan. Use the DNKs in the centre to advance and lock their italian militia in melee and use your cavalry to flank and rout the units fighting your DNKs.
Spears are there to provide defence against enemy cavalry (not too much around though in the beginning).
Beware the milanese crossbows - these guys are more than able to damage your precious knights. If the enemy employs them, use the faster squires to run fast in the enemy rear and try to engage their xbows in melee while doing the same thing as above with the rest of their main battle line (militias) - fix them with DNKs and charge from the rear or flank with the NKs.

hellraiser

08-13-2010, 10:40

Played a little more than 100 turns following the above mentioned strategy - the results are very decent so far.

Wiped out the Moors and Spanish (moors' best friends and allies - quite unnatural), managed to keep outstanding - perfect relations with the Pope in the meantime.
Actually the spaniards' lasct city (Rennes) was subject to a crusade :)
Traded Rennes for Zaragoza with my former french allies and now Sicily controls Iberian lands excepting Lisbon and Pamplona (portuguese worship me), Northern african desert all the way to alexandria. Genoa is mine as well as the starting provinces, ajaccio and cagliari.
Super relations with the HRE and Venice (weird i know) - but Venice succumbed to milanese attacks eventually.
Milan is a potential threat (relations degraded to so-so recently) but because i am seen as 'very reliable' and have 'supreme' military power, they really don't want to mess with me atm.
Mongols settled in Kiew so it's russia, hungary, poland and byzantines' job to deal with them for now. Which prompted me to crusade egyptian Jerusalem and after i took it, I agreed to make peace with Egypt in exchange for the castle of Acre.
Timurids appeared though:(
Since my plan requires to let others deal with those 2 hordes at first, if Timurids attack middle east, I will just abandon the Levant cities (probably sell them to egyptians) and let them war in order to weaken themselves.
Economy is running very well, troops' quality is decent (i still have a lot of the early era units but VERY experienced) - so far the strategy is working.
Waiting for the Black Death event to kick in now :(
Probably i will opt for expanding my realm into the catholic west since every now and then england or france get excommunicated and it's a pitty not to take advantage of it. This and the fact that my military facilities in Italia and Spain are very well built making it very easy to war a western nation.

Seamus Fermanagh

08-14-2010, 04:51