Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

[abou]

As of now I am using two sources. The first is Polybius's Histories as translated on perseus.tufts.edu: the relevant sections are 5.82 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/////ptext?lookup=Plb.+5.82) - 5.86 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/////ptext?lookup=Plb.+5.86). The second is p. 93 of John Warry's book Warfare in the Classical World.

EB units that I am not sure to use for certain entries have question marks next to them and any help from the team would be appreciated. For example, I find it doubtful that Antiochus would use 6000 Hetairoi, but I can't think of anything else he would use.

A good location for the site seems to be 196,81; however, you can see the coast and I am not sure how far inland the battle took place. I intend to start messing around with the battle editor sometime tomorrow.


Arche Seleukeia

Antiochus III

Cavalry
Horse: 6000 – Hetairoi(?)
Elephants: 102 – Indian Elephants

Infantry
Phalanx: 20000 – Pezhetairoi
Hypaspistai or Argyraspidai: 10000 – Hypaspistai or Argyraspidai
Greek Mercenaries: 5000 – 2000 as Misothophoroi Phalangitai – 3000 as Misothophoroi ______ ?
Arabs: 10000 – close-order or heavy infantry(?)
Medians, Cadusians, and Carmanians: 5000 – close-order or heavy infantry(?)

Archers
Cretans: 2500 – Cretan Archers
Agrianians and Persians: 2000 – Thanvabara

Peltasts
Peltasts: 7000 – Peltastai
Lydian Javelin-men: 1000 – Akontistai(?)
Cardacian Javelin-men: 1000 – Akontistai(?)


Ptolemaioi

Ptolemy IV

Cavalry
Guard: 700 – Hetairoi
Egypt: 2000 – Kleruchoi Agemata Cavalry
Greek Mercenaries: 2000 – Misothrophoroi Hippes
Elephants: 73 – African Elephants

Infantry
Royal Guard: 3000 – Basilikon Agemata
Phalanx: 25000 – Pezhetairoi
Egyptian: 20000 – Machimoi Phalangitai
Greek Mercenaries: 8000 – Misothophoroi Hoplitai (Polybius states they extended the phalanx)
Gauls and Thracians: 6000 – Galatian Kleruchoi(?)
Libyans: 3000 – Machimoi Phalangitai (Polybius states they were armed in Macedonian fashion)

Archers
Cretans: 3000 – Cretan Archers

Peltasts
Peltasts: 2000


Are there any other sources that I should be looking at and would anyone be willing to help me with this?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't know the battle well, but if you're just talking about other possibilities for seleukid cavalry, there are a number of options. Some baktrian and iranian and cappadocian and other merc cavalry are possible (baktrian hippeis, arachosian light cav, cappadocian cav, mercenary thracian cav, some galatian cav, etc.)

[abou]

I'm trying to figure out how exactly I want to split the forces up. There is a lot and because of unit positions and hardcoded limits I've had some trouble. Ptolemaioi will be in two armies and I can fit Arche Seleukeia into one, but it may be two. The nice thing about this battle is that the wings on the extreme from the commanders seemed to have really been occupied with their own devices and away from the commanders themselves; thus they can be split into separate armies logically.

As of now, the ratio is 20:1 and elephants are 10:1. The elephants are at 10:1 because I can't think that having so few for each side would really do much of anything besides be javelin-fodder.

Ptolemaioi 1st Army
*Hetairoi with Ptolemaios IV (35)
Kleruchoi Agemata Cavalry (100) <-- may split up
Basilikon Agemata (100) <-- may split up
Libyan Machimoi Phalangitai (150)
Peltastai (100)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
Cretan Archers (50)
Cretan Archers (35)
African Elephants (4 or 2 depending on ratio)

Ptolemaioi 2nd Army
*Misothophoroi Hippeis with Polycrates? (100) <-- may split up
Misothrophoroi Hoplitai (200)
Misothrophoroi Hoplitai (200)
Galatian Kleruchoi (150)
Galatian Kleruchoi (150) <-- maybe something else for the Thracians?
Cretan Archers (45)
Cretan Archers (20)
African Elephants (3 or 2 depending on ratio)


Arche Seleukeia
*Hetairoi with Antiochus III (200) <-- if split, I will need to make two armies
Misothophoroi Hoplitai or Theurophoroi (150)
Misothophoroi Phalangitai (100)
Peltastai (175) <-- Dahae, Carmanians, and Cilicians
Peltastai (175) <-- Dahae, Carmanians, and Cilicians
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Pezhetairoi (250)
Argyraspidai (250)
Argyraspidai (250)
Cretan Archers (125) <-- may split up according to Warry's placement (63 and 62)
Indian Elephants (6 or 3 depending on ratio)

---- possible split for second army ----

*Baktrian Hippeis with Themison (100) <-- may split up or change unit type
Arabs (50) <-- some type of close-order unit
Medes, Carmanians, Cadusians (250) <-- close-order, maybe Nizag Gund?
Caradcian Akontistai (50)
Lydian Akontistai (50)
Thanvabara (100) <-- Agrianians and Persians
Indian Elephants (4 or 2 depending on ratio)

TA, I'm going to look into the Seleukid cavalry. I'll try and see what other sources I can find - I think Diodorus Siculus may have written some things. Right now though, I'm not sure I want to split the Seleukid forces, but I might have to.

[Geoffrey S]

I'd really recommend checking The Seleucid army : organization and tactics in the great campaigns by Bar-Kochva. It contains indepth info on the battle with an evaluation of what the most likely army composition was; if you want I can post the numbers given for the various types of troops in that work.

[abou]

That would be great, Geoffrey. I was planning on getting the book through my university library system and reading it over break, but any help now would be appreciated.

[Moros]

If I was you I'd try to put both armies in one slot. Multple armies of the same faction always make it look less real and, it isn't that fun if you play with only a part of an army. Btw: why 4 units of Cretan Archers? Why not one consisting out of 85 men and another consisting out of 65 men?

Also 0.8 might bring some units you might find usefull...

[Geoffrey S]

Well damn it. I wrote up some stuff and the forums timed me out, deleting my text. I'll try again tomorrow when it isn't one 'o clock at night.

[abou]

If I was you I'd try to put both armies in one slot. Multple armies of the same faction always make it look less real and, it isn't that fun if you play with only a part of an army. Btw: why 4 units of Cretan Archers? Why not one consisting out of 85 men and another consisting out of 65 men?
I probably will condense the archer units. Part of the problem is that they were split on either side of the elephants on the wings, but I don't think it would be out of the question to put one large unit of archers behind each elephant unit.

Again, I wish I could make just one army for the Ptolemaioi, but the way they were arranged on the field and the number of units mentioned makes that impossible - at least according to Warry's layout. For example, the Libyans and Egyptians may be the same unit type, but the Pezhetairoi were between them; therefore, I can't just make a few Machimoi Phalangitai at 300 men and another at 250.


Also 0.8 might bring some units you might find usefull...I'm hoping so. I'd rather not use Akontistai.


Well damn it. I wrote up some stuff and the forums timed me out, deleting my text. I'll try again tomorrow when it isn't one 'o clock at night.Keep trying.~:thumb:

[Moros]

I'm hoping so. I'd rather not use Akontistai.

Oh, I'm talking about much more exciting units.

[abou]

Don't tease me, man.

[Geoffrey S]

Right, second attempt. The section on the battle of Raphia in Bar-Kochva obviously provides more detail on the Seleucid side of the battle and in particular focuses more on tactics than exact army composition. This is what it says:

Antiochus
35,000 phalangites
6,000 cavalry
21,000 light troops

Antiochus commanded the right wing of the battleline at the head of 2,000 cavalry: 1,000 companions and 1,000 agema. A further 2,000 mounted troops stood on the right wing, the remainder of the cavalry stood on the left. The centre of the line consisted of the phalangites with 10,000 argyraspides in the right section and 20,000 military settlers in phalanx formation in the left half. Between the cavalry on the right and the centre of the line stood 5,000 greek mercenaries as phalangites and 5,000 light eastern troops. The remainder of the light troops stood between the left flank cavalry and the left centre, and contained Arab and oriental lights. Antiochus’ Indian elephants screened the cavalry with Cretans interspersed between them.

The main line was 16 to 24 men deep, with (crucially) the light troops being part of the main line rather than screening it.

Ptolemy
61,000 phalangites
6,000 heavy Thracian and Galatian troops
5,000 cavalry
3,000 Cretan lights

Ptolemy stood on the left flank with the majority of the cavalry, opposite Antiochus. Next to this cavalry stood the heavy Thracian and Galatian troops alongside Greek mercenary phalangites, opposite the weaker Seleucid right. The main phalangite force stood in the centre: the Egyptian phalanx (25,000 men) on the right and opposite the Seleucid military settlers and oriental lights, the European settlers (20,000 men) on the left opposite Antiochus’ argyraspides; Bar-Kochva also makes brief mention of this section also consisting of agema and peltasts. Like Antiochus, Ptolemy covered his cavalry with (African) elephants and Cretan light troops.

The main line was 24 to 32 men deep and did not extend significantly beyond the Seleucid line.

Battlefield
The battle took place somewhat inland, with dunes near the flanks. Bar-Kochva argues that the dunes did not actually cover the flanks as room was needed for cavalry to maneuver on either side. The coastline shouldn’t be too nearby but should be visible.

And by the way, I'd also advise against splitting the Seleucid army. The army seems homogenous enough to get away with large blocks of infantry.

Good luck!

[paullus]

How did you get 61,000 phalangites on the ptolemaic side? I count 45-48 thousand. Are you counting the basilikon, the peltastai, and the misthophoroi as phalangites?

As for the seleukids, the misthophoroi on the right flank should not be phalangites, they should be thorakitai or conventional hoplites.

ptolemaics:
1-klerouchoi agemata cav (could be reduced into the hetairoi unit)
1-basilike ile/hetairoi
1-african elephants
1-kretan archers
1-basilikon agemata
1-"peltastai" - should probably be thorakitai
1-klerouchoi agemata
2-pezhetairoi
2-klerouchoi phalangitai
4-machimoi phalangitai
2-misthophoroi hoplitai
1-galatai klerouchoi
1-thraikioi peltastai
1-misthophoroi thessalikoi

Seleukids
2-hetairoi
1-mad asabara
2-indian elephants
1-kretans
1-thorakitai
2-argyraspidai
4-klerouchoi phalangitai
2-arabian levies
1-thraikioi peltastai
1-persian archers (name slips me)
1-misthophoroi hippeis
leaving two more for other levy units

I hope that helps in figuring out where to allocate things.

[Geoffrey S]

How did you get 61,000 phalangites on the ptolemaic side? I count 45-48 thousand. Are you counting the basilikon, the peltastai, and the misthophoroi as phalangites?
Yeah, this was annoying. Bar-Kochva specifically mentions 61,000 phalangites, but only mentions the 20,000 Europeans and 25,000 Egyptians in the battle report and a number of greek mercenaries. I found 61,000 too high myself, particularly since he makes no mention of lighter troops in the battleline such as the peltasts; these must be in addition to the 45,000 phalangites.

[paullus]

yeah, there are something like 61,000 medium-heavy infantry in the ptolemaic line, but there ain't no way they're all phalangites.

[abou]

Thanks, Paullus and Geoffrey. I'm going to look more into what you guys wrote, but right now the project is on hold. I've had a hard time trying to get the battle editor to work both on my computer and a friend's -- CTDs and all. Hopefully I won't have those problems with the new base of RTW 1.5.

[Moros]

try copying the imperial_campaign map files to the base folder. It should work for 0.74 then. For 0.8 it will be different.

[abou]

*sigh*

I just picked up From Samarkhand to Sardis from my library and it contains a chart for Seleucid numbers in three big battles - the first of course being Raphia. The forces are slightly different, but at least I guessed correctly that the Lydians were akontistai. Here is what Sherwin-White and Kuhrt list:


Phalanx
20,000 Macedonians
10,000 Argyraspides
5,000 Greeks

Semi-heavy infantry
1,000 Thracians

Light infantry
1,500 Cretan archers
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
500 Lydian akontists
10,000 Arabs
1,000 Cardacians
5,000 Dahae and Cilicians
2,000 Persian and 'Agrianian' bowmen and slingers
5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians

Heavy Cavalry
4,000 military settlers
2,000 Royal Guard

At the bottom of the chart it states this:

Fig.2. Sources of manpower for the Seleucid armies (after Bar Kochva 1989).

So, assuming that this is the most correct (because it is a relatively recent publication) it answers a few questions and then raises a few more in return. The mystery cavalry on the left wing is somewhat taken care of, but what the hell are Neo-Cretan archers?

[paullus]

if someone finds a convincing argument by someone as who the neo-cretans actually are, I'd love to see it. some think they are second-class cretan citizens, and that other than that there is little battlefield difference. some think they are armed in a different manner, perhaps as slightly heavier troops. still others have proposed that they are all-around marine-types, capable of boarding duties, but also skirmishing with their bows.

for the purposes of the raphia battle, i'd treat them as cretans, there aren't enough of them in either army to justify separate units.

[abou]

So, now that I have 0.8 installed I thought I would have better luck with editing battles. 1.5 vanilla had no problem getting to the editor; however, with EB 0.8 it keeps going back to the main game menu.

I'll be building a new computer sometime within the next two weeks so I'll actually be able to play at the huge setting. By that time hopefully 0.81 will be out and will correct any problems I'm having. In the meantime I will just have to work on what units to use for the questionable deployments. Right now I'm leaning towards Thraikioi Prodromoi for the Seleukid wing, but if more cavalry units will be released I'll have to wait and see.

[Moros]

have you tried what I posted above? Otherwise maybe I can help with the battleeditor stuff.

[abou]

The copying of the impertial_base folder? Actually, no I haven't so I'll give that a try.

[abou]

Hey Gertgregoor, do you know what I need to get editing to work in 0.8?

[Moros]

Well I haven't tried yet, I'll have a look to see if I get it working. For 0.74 it's just the copying.

[Moros]

strange whatever I try, I can't get it to work.

[abou]

Well, that's not good at all.

[Moros]

Know what I'll ask it to the other EB members, there must be someone who knows it.

[Moros]

Okay the solution, thanks to TK-421, is to install EB but not as submod but in the main data folder. then it should work. He also gave another piece of advise which I'll quote:

Take the number of men at the battle and divide it by 25 and that will get you the number in RTW on large unit size. For instance, at Magnesia, their were 3000 Cataphracts on the right side of the Seleucid phalanx. 3000/25=120. 120 is too large for a single cav unit on large unit scale, so divide it into two units of 60 each. This doesn't work on some especially large battles.
Using that for the Seleukids would give an army of 2720 men, which is a normal number for an RTW army. However note that imo some units like elephants and scythed chariots should be divided by a smaller number. As they would be useless as a single elephant or chariot.

[abou]

So how then do I install to the main directory? Should I just copy things or do a clean install?

[Eduorius]

abou?

[Moros]

So how then do I install to the main directory? Should I just copy things or do a clean install?
You'll need to copy all files and check them all for directories which need to be changed. In a normal install they'll be something like this:
.../EB/Data/...
Obviously in this case the EB needs to be deleted as you know have copied your files over to the normal Data folder. You'll need to check all files referencing files (images, textures, models,...).

EDit: sorry for the late awnser. I forgot about this.

[abou]

It's cool, Moros.

I intend to get this going again once the hotfix is released and thus moving files to the correct directories easier. I imagine the next full release for EB is several months away and so there is no need for me to wait until then, but I hope the hotfix is within the next week or two.

The only problem I will have is making sure the units I want are available to both factions.

[abou]

Using a ratio of 25:1

Ptolemaioi Army

Cavalry
Royal Guard - Hetairoi (28)
Egyptian - Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (80)
Greek Mercenaries - Misthophoroi Hippeis (80)
Elephants - 2 units of ?

Infantry
Royal Guard - Basilikon Agemata (120)
Phalanx - 5 Pezhetaroi (200)
Egyptian - 4 Machimoi Phalangitai (200)
Greek Mercenaries - 2 Misthophoroi Iphikratous Hoplitai (160)
Gauls and Thracians - Galatikoi Kleruchoi (120) and Taxeis Triballoi (120)
Libyans - Machimoi Phalangitai (120)

Archers
Cretan Archers - 2 Kretikoi Toxotai (120)

Peltasts
Peltasts - Peltastai (80)


I'm still debating on the Elephants. I think it will depend on how they work once I start testing with all the units.

Edit: added missing peltasts

[paullus]

does the parenthetical number mean the number of men in each unit, or the number of men total? the former right?

it looks like a pretty good set-up for the most part. was there not some other unit on the left flank, in addition to the kretans and basilikoi? EDIT: the peltastai, that's it. Are you figuring the basilikoi can cover both of those units?

[abou]

The number inside the parentheses is the number of men per unit.

And yeah, I forgot the Peltastai. I'm going to add that in right now.

[abou]

Working my way through the Seleucids, but I may need some help on what the team thinks best represents nationals.


Phalanx
20,000 Macedonians - 4 Pezhetairoi (200)
10,000 Argyraspides - 2 Argyraspidai (200)
5,000 Greek mercenaries - Misthoporoi Pezhetairoi (80) and Mistophoroi Theurophoroi (120)

Cavalry
4,000 Military Settlers - 2 Thraikioi Prodromoi (80)
2,000 Royal Guard - Hetairoi (80)
Elephants - 2 of ?

Semi-heavy infantry
1,000 Thracians - Thraikioi Peltastai (40)

Light infantry
1,500 Cretan archers - Kretikoi Toxotai (60)
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers - Kretikoi Toxotai (40) - might combine with standard Cretan archers
500 Lydian akontists + 1,000 Cardacians - Akontistai (60)
10,000 Arabs - 2 Giusim Aravim 'im Garzenim (200) or 2 Giusim Aravim Tsfonim (200)
5,000 Dahae and Cilicians - ?
2,000 Persian and 'Agrianian' bowmen and slingers -
5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians - Nizag Gund (200)


...


Some other questions for the team. The first is whether the numbers should include officers. For example, should Pezhetairoi be 200 or really 202?

The second is about the Ptolemaioi Basilikon Agemata. Will they be keeping the phalanx ability? I thought someone from the team mentioned that they would be using the overhand spear like the Hypaspistai, but that was months ago.

[abou]

Updated the Seleukid list. I'm kind of upset because I wanted to fit the Seleukids into one army, but it just doesn't look possible due to the several different nationalities without drastically reducing the ratio.

I'm also debating on the Neo-Cretan problem. I'll need to do more research, but I'm really leaning towards just combining the two.

I also want to know what the team thinks about the Arab units. In the Sherwin-White book (IIRC), it mentions recruitment of Arabs from the Red Sea area so what I have could be possible, but a solid northern Arab levy would probably be better.

[abou]

Here is a beta of the battle. There is still a lot of tweaking that needs to be done, but as of right now I need to know if any formations are not clear blocks (cavalry for example is giving me trouble) or if the armies should start closer together so as to coax the AI in behaving properly. There are also a number of placeholder units, which may not actually get to be replaced until more regional troops are available in EB.


EBRaphia (http://abou.heliologue.com/uploads/EBRaphia.zip)
Right-click, save, and extract to EB\data\world\maps\battle\custom
Edit: This battle is for v0.81a. Be sure you have the correct version.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Do you have to do anything different really? Will it work on a straight up 0.81x build?

[abou]

Uh, I don't know. It was made on version 0.81a, which was a clean install. As far as I know, just drop it in the folder and start.

[Moros]

if there are map changes, the battlemap might look/be different, depens if the specific arrea was changed.
If unit names change, there'll be problems.
If the names of the generals are removed from the names list, you'll probably have a problem too.
If custom objects which were added to the battle are changed, you'll probably encounter errors too.

Most problems will only be caused because of name changes. Hwever it doesn't matter if a unit has it's stats edited for example. As the names of most units will probably remain unchanged, the names of the generals probably too and since the chances are small that it will not work on a future 0.8 build. However 1.0 for example is a different matter. (Also map changes normally shouldn't make it crash, only change the enviroment.)

[King Agatholes of Syracuse]

Very nice abou :2thumbsup:, I will definately try it. I tried it with the actual number of troops on the battle field but only got about quarter the amount of troops and took about 5 minutes to move a troop of Hetairoi 10 metres! :wall: Anyway, do you know if the elephants were Cataphracts or unarmoured? :book:

[abou]

Thanks, Agatholes.

As far as I know, none of the elephants were cataphract elephants. If you follow the link in my first post to the Perseus site you can read Polybius's account and a specific section on the elephants. The ability of the elephants to gore the sides of their opposites leads me to believe that none were armored.

[King Agatholes of Syracuse]

Ah, I see.Cheers mate.

[Laman]

Played it on 0.81a. Got a problem, the battle froze at this point

https://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4748/raphiasw2.jpg

as I was to kill the Ptolemaic leader (I think Ptolemy, but I didn't really check what unit the other ptolie-guy used as bodyguard), or get killed myself possibly, whichever of the generals are in the middle of the picture I suppose.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, that happened with me too. Maybe removing it from the list of goals or something would keep it from doing that.

[Thaatu]

Screenshot of the aeon, if not for a few visible flaws. Damn, so close. :sweatdrop:
A shot of the initial action occuring in Ptolemy's left flank.

[img=https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4272/raphia217bcbm1.th.jpg] (https://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=raphia217bcbm1.jpg)

Should seriously be recreated once the EB elephants are ingame.

[abou]

Nice shot, Thaatu.

Lofman, I'm not sure what to tell you about the freeze. It seems to happen regularly enough that that part of the objectives could justifiably be removed, but I'm not sure I am ready to do that. Internally, there will be a fair amount of testing and cleaning up of the battles and so in there we will come to the final decision.

Who knows, it might just be an odd coincidence that is causing it.

[TWFanatic]

Another very good battle from abou. ~:thumb: Are you helping the EB team with the historical battles for the next patch?

[abou]

Indeed I am. Whether it will make that release or not is unknown, but we'll try. The battle itself has actually been remade entirely and several scripted elements are being added to make the battle a bit more dynamic.

[mAIOR]

Are you making Magnesia?? If so, I hope you don't use the numbers of the previous version of EB Magnesia.
70K army is just too much.

Cheers...

[abou]

Actually, tk is doing that one. I'm not entirely sure what he is doing and I know that we weren't in total agreement with numbers, but I'm sure he'll make a good battle.