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10k for me too
And I use only 2 rules:
max 5 cav
max 2 art
Otherwise you get cav spammers, and only 2 art simply because imo art isn't really overpowered as in RTW, they aren't that strong
NihilisticCow
11-16-2006, 23:25
Why max 5 cav though? Massed cavalry is harder to use as they just can get blobbed up and blocked. Cavalry restrictions in RTW 1.2 were needed, but they haven't been since BI came out.
][GERUDO][Mojoman
11-17-2006, 02:26
yeah i dont put a max on cav, i just say no art/ele...sometimes max 4 HA depending on the period..and ya 10k pwns
Why max 5 cav though?
Since I already had to games with cav spammer, the idiots came with cav only. I won ok, but it was "pretty" boring tho.
Since I already had to games with cav spammer, the idiots came with cav only.
The best way to make the all cav go away is to beat it. It's quite important that all cav can be effectively countered.
Orda Khan
11-17-2006, 13:42
Stig,
Can you edit the prophanity out of your post please?
Or can a Moderator? Please?
.......Orda
ok no problem sorry m8, it's just how I write from time to time
ah come on, I love boyfriend with fast car, I love my army with fast horsies. I love speed. Now having 5 max on cav? Ridiculous :)
Annie
I smell something is it sarcasm or the toilets not far from here?
Why to have max on cavalry in MTW 2? This doesn't seems to be a problem there.
As said, I like fair games, yes I can beat cav spammers, but it's just no fun
I don't see how its "less fun".
Care to elaborate?
You said you don't like them because you faced all cav armies, but then stick five max on? Surely a more logical step would be around 10, if you really must have a rule.
No I'm used to play under very strict rules
Only 4 same type
max 4 cav
max 4 ranged
ha counts as both ranged and cav
art counts as ranged
no spartans, urbs, prat cav (and some more elites)
no fire art
I limit cav to 5, because that's good imo
1 general, 5 cav, 4 archers, 10 inf is my standard army, and the rules are based on that.
10k seems to be the best, though 20k can be fun as well. Also i do not see the need for any limits on number of certain units as they can all be countered. I fought a guy earleir who was the Timurids with 3 cannon eles and mostly cav army, yet i kicked his ass with my Russian army as i focused on missile troops, horse archers, and some decent shock cavalry.
Orda Khan
11-18-2006, 23:33
Well it's a simple case of whether people accept those rules or not.
My own opinion is that those rules disadvantage certain factions and will eventually lead to only some factions used. Since cavalry armies are historical I have no problem with it
......Orda
Aye, tbh I have no problem if people use 6 or 8 cav as the Mongols, but the spammers I played had 20 cav with HRE and France, not the real all cav factions.
Well it's a simple case of whether people accept those rules or not.
My own opinion is that those rules disadvantage certain factions and will eventually lead to only some factions used. Since cavalry armies are historical I have no problem with it
......Orda
Well I agree "no ele" in Rome was a very big factor, weakening Carthage immensely. However in M2 the only faction with eles are the Timurids, and I played without a no elephant rule for the first week and hardly one picked Timurids anyway.
but the spammers I played had 20 cav with HRE and France, not the real all cav factions.
Cavs very expensive for those faction, 700+ for heavy cav, the light cav they can also get is totally crap anyway. 700x20=14000, which means you were playing like 15k, which is too much money imo anyway.
I didn't host them, they did ... which means I don't control money
RTKBarrett
11-21-2006, 18:26
10k seems the best.... i dont know why these rules are popping out all over the place. Tbh the only thing that really needs a restriction on is the musketeers but i hardly play late period anyways ;-)
Played some battles with you Huscarl guys, only rule no art, right?
Were some pretty good games
RTKBarrett
11-21-2006, 18:30
Yes, i only put in no art as i know many players dislike its use... im not bothered.
10 and no rules = fun game
Cavalery army is balanced because they are expensive and very weak
Elephant no problem because they cost very much, only available for Timurids and easy to counter.
Artillery= no art is stupid especially when you know all late European Armies have artillery units in their all battles and plus they are expensive,inaccurate but good to force your opponents to attack.
id especially when you know all late European Armies have artillery units .
Alot of the artillery units available are siege guns, not used on the battle field.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-22-2006, 20:55
10K, No Art No Eles, Flatland is fair game so far on MTW2 IMO. I'm not doing a cav maxl iek Sitg is, because I not for the idea, but then again, I haven't fought any cav spammers yet.
UglyandHasty
11-23-2006, 02:26
10 k is fine, no rules
Alot of the artillery units available are siege guns, not used on the battle field.
Formigny,Castillon and Marignan are only some example of the power of the artillery on the battlefield in the medieval/renaissance period.
Yea 10k seems to be pretty fair. I dont like the late era games too much though, i prefer high era with max 3 art as the only rule.
10 and no rules = fun game
Cavalery army is balanced because they are expensive and very weak
Elephant no problem because they cost very much, only available for Timurids and easy to counter.
Artillery= no art is stupid especially when you know all late European Armies have artillery units in their all battles and plus they are expensive,inaccurate but good to force your opponents to attack.
That is what I want to hear. I want to use an all cav army and am delight to hear that it is weak. My objective is not to play it to win, but I did so in MTW to break the monotony of the 3-8-5 catholic formation (which was optimum in MTW but oh so boring).
I was sarcastic earlier because if it were like RTW, where all cav was strong and played by weakmind people many times, I wouldn't play all cav and it made me sad.
anniep
Orda Khan
11-24-2006, 16:28
That is what I want to hear. I want to use an all cav army and am delight to hear that it is weak. My objective is not to play it to win, but I did so in MTW to break the monotony of the 3-8-5 catholic formation (which was optimum in MTW but oh so boring).
I was sarcastic earlier because if it were like RTW, where all cav was strong and played by weakmind people many times, I wouldn't play all cav and it made me sad.
anniep
I share the feeling
......Orda
peacedog
11-26-2006, 16:56
Cavalry and Artillery are expensive. If you stick to 10k games anyone spamming these units will get slaughtered by a balanced army.
My only problem with facing someone with lots of Artillery is that the best tactic is to rush them, resulting in a very quick, easy, but boring win.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-27-2006, 00:09
10K, No Art No Eles No Musketeers is Balacnec
Even with Musketerrs, the game can be good if it 10K flatland. 12.5K may be funner, but more likely for spammers though
10k no rule. so far only played 1v1.
Well the all cav army in m2tw is totally different from rtw; it doesn't need any skill in moving and directing a mass of horses grouped and overlapped as one in rtw.
In m2tw from my experience so far, each cav need to be manoevured individually; which means control and micromanagement; which mean skill. moreover they are harder to handle vs MTW; even the cav raid on the shooters need to be controlled precisely.
I am not sure cav is really balanced, even at 10k.
Yesterday I have experienced a all-cav army (12-14 turks cavalry units), against which I was not able to really put an effective counter. Now, I am not the most proven champion general, so I am just asking if anyone else has fought against a all-cav army and what does he/she thinks.
UglyandHasty
11-27-2006, 15:05
gg yesterday Massi :)
Yeah i like how one have to micro manage cav in MTW2. Someone try to sweep my lines with cavalry yesterday(like the old MTW sweep). He got stuck in his own line, wich allow me to send 2 cav on both his wing and manage to win the day.
Another game(10k by players), a 2vs2, one ally was all inf with artillery, and his winger all cav. The all cav army was only 8 units, with valor and maybe upgrades. Me and my ally had both balanced army, we easily won the day.
Cav is powerfull. But you have to use it wisely.
Hi Uglyandhasty, yes, it was a gg :)
in our 2v2 my direct opponent had few (too few) cavalry units overupgraded, in that case I had to commit basically the whole of my army but it went fine. Yoe could get rid of the other one with .. what? 4 or more artilery units
In other two 1v1 games I have met 12-14 cavs, and though I did a bad mistake in the second game I had the feeling that a combination of power and speed makes 12 cavalry units really, really tough. Do not forget that a balanced army has at least 4 swords units, which I felt they are just ballast against such all cav army.
RTKBarrett
11-27-2006, 18:31
Its quite normal to expect to see up to 12 cavalry in many of these factions army builds...
RTKBarrett
11-27-2006, 18:32
Its quite normal to expect to see up to 10+ cavalry in many of these factions army builds...
RTKBarrett
11-27-2006, 18:32
BAH can someone delete the first and this :D
SoxSexSax
11-27-2006, 20:00
I've used an all cav army multiple times now, and am undefeated in 1v1 with it. That doesn't mean that I COULDN'T be beaten, but I have come to the conclusion that cav is overpowered to the extreme. Mainly, it is too easy for a cav unit in combat to withdraw without taking heavy losses and recharge. I have routed 2 equal florin armies single handed with this strat (true, players involved were total noobs), something that, I feel, should be next to impossible. There may also be a stamina issue (i.e. cav lose stamina too slow compared to inf) but I'm not entirely sold on that. But on the whole, cav is pretty damn overpowered and needs nerfing.
(Note: I only ever use all cav when the host expressly says no rules. Teach 'em a lesson for next time, won't it?)
I uploaded a couple of replays here: http://geocities.com/russdlamb/replays.zip
They both work on my machine (i.e. no replay bug) and show just how easily an all cav army can destroy a balanced one. In the second one, note that my ally DROPPED in deployment...and look how close I come to winning on my own!
CeltiberoMordred
11-27-2006, 22:21
I've used an all cav army multiple times now, and am undefeated in 1v1 with it. That doesn't mean that I COULDN'T be beaten, but I have come to the conclusion that cav is overpowered to the extreme. Mainly, it is too easy for a cav unit in combat to withdraw without taking heavy losses and recharge. I have routed 2 equal florin armies single handed with this strat (true, players involved were total noobs), something that, I feel, should be next to impossible. There may also be a stamina issue (i.e. cav lose stamina too slow compared to inf) but I'm not entirely sold on that. But on the whole, cav is pretty damn overpowered and needs nerfing.
(Note: I only ever use all cav when the host expressly says no rules. Teach 'em a lesson for next time, won't it?)
I uploaded a couple of replays here: http://geocities.com/russdlamb/replays.zip
They both work on my machine (i.e. no replay bug) and show just how easily an all cav army can destroy a balanced one. In the second one, note that my ally DROPPED in deployment...and look how close I come to winning on my own!
Those battles were played with much more than 10k per player. Please, try to do same with 10k armies and watch if it still works.
Edit: Skill also matters.
SoxSexSax
11-27-2006, 22:36
Yah, I'm aware of that. My point was (and I admit that I didn't really make it) that florins above 10000 allow unbalanced armies like this, hence 10000 is the value to use.
the question is: can one beat an all cav army at 10k, if the opponents have similar skills?
because, I can also be average, but if an average player beat me all the times with an all cav army but not with a balanced army, it means something is REALLY wrong.
the question is: can one beat an all cav army at 10k, if the opponents have similar skills?
because, I can also be average, but if an average player beat me all the times with an all cav army but not with a balanced army, it means something is REALLY wrong.
this is quite easy to verify, just take a full cav army @ 10k and play with others. :bow:
No I'm used to play under very strict rules
Only 4 same type
max 4 cav
max 4 ranged
ha counts as both ranged and cav
art counts as ranged
no spartans, urbs, prat cav (and some more elites)
no fire art
I limit cav to 5, because that's good imo
1 general, 5 cav, 4 archers, 10 inf is my standard army, and the rules are based on that.
Wow those rules are so extreme even for rtw 1.2. If u gave me those rules in a 1v1 at a reasonable amount of money like 12.5k I wouldn't even have to try to beat u as you'd need the elite units to have a chance. Good rules for rtw (1.5 anyway) are no art, max 1 ele, max 6 per unit type max 2 ha as they allow a good variety in tactics and stratergy.
As for mtw2 10k seems to be a very solid amount of money, and CA has got the unit costs spot on to play at this money rather than rtw where u needed slightly more. I currently play no art as the only rule, however I may change that to max 2 or something as in the games i've played with it it's no way near as powerful as onagers in rtw.
Cav armies are fairly easy to beat unless played by an expert, although i haven't faced an all cav army yet in a 1v1. but u'd be able to tell that they'd brought one in deployment as the total number of men would be alot lower than usual, and if so u could counter it extremely easily with some factions, but it could be a challenge if your a faction with weak cav or lack of pikemen.
YellowMelon
11-28-2006, 05:02
I am quite satisfied with 10k, though it really depends on the era. I am guessing that in tournaments there will be different eras? I was not in the community during mtw so I am unsure how the system works, but 10k is a good amount for the late period, though it makes certain factions difficult to use. 10k on early seems like plenty of money and I wouldn't even mind seeing it lowered to 8.5k or so to balance some factions out. But 10k will be good for the moment, CA worked around 10k for balancing purposes which I believe they are still improving for the next patch, but 10k was what they intended to be the standard, and until we can find exploits and bugs and improve on tactics through hours upon hours of multiplayer grinding, I think it will be a good place to remain.
As for limitations...well I was never a fan of banning elephants in RTW because certain factions (Numidia, Carthage) were more balanced with them. Seeing as though the Timurids who lack a useful army in practical terms are the only ones who have elephants I don't think it would be wise to ban them, but that's my opinion. They cost so much that I think using them cripples the rest of their army anyways.
As for the limiting of cav, I have no idea. Havnt played enough atm to make a decision.
Artillery, although designed for sieges in the most part, is still too random to be used strategically in any regard. Think of the price per shot they get off, they have the potential to kill 0$ or 3000$, I dont think it is skillful to rely on odds like those in army building.
Limiting per unit type? Well that's silly since you get a financial punishment for using more than 4, and only cautious and experienced players should be able to effectively inflate their prices, none of us are experienced enough yet to make such decisions imo. Give it a few more weeks.
These are issues that will work out over time, though I am confident to say that a max 5 cav is a bit strenuous on certain factions right now, and destroys the fun of having a skirmishing game. Leave it to cow, he'll sort the rules out ;)
this is quite easy to verify, just take a full cav army @ 10k and play with others. :bow:
it is not my gamestile, and I am not playing more than 10 games a week, therefore I ask here.
Otherwise you can explain to me what is this forum for?
I am quite satisfied with 10k, though it really depends on the era. I am guessing that in tournaments there will be different eras? I
Hi Melon,
I believe tournaments such as CWC hosted one tournament on say high, then maybe next one on a different era, I'd assume it'd be similiar in m2. Unsure about CWB but they can be mroe flexible as currently they have a BI and a RTW ladder, they could easily convert this to m2 by having a ladder per era, or two ladders on the most favourited eras (which appear to be high and late atm).
I thought it is time to resurrect this topic after I've heard from few clan members as Bears, VKC and Elite that they prefer 12,5k over 10k.
I play 10k no art no eles.
I dont like fighting HA armies cause it takes forever and i lose at the end. but, on the other hand, i like playing agaisnt them cause it will only take time for me to be able to beat them.
RTKMercurius
12-13-2006, 15:47
Seems like CA did a good job of balancing it at 10k....
would be fun to spend more money in Late or all, however.... :D
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-13-2006, 22:48
10K is good enough for me. I think 12.5K won't be bad, but it allows more Muskets and other all-to-strong units..
lol, anyone else wonder how random 12.5k is? :laugh4: I mean, why not 12k...or 13k :juggle2: Seems just another example of using rome's rules tbh.
But anyway. I still prefer 10k. I can't see how extra cash would help balance the game.
ol, anyone else wonder how random 12.5k is? I mean, why not 12k...or 13k Seems just another example of using rome's rules tbh.
I've tryed 12,5k and as Karsh said it feels 'right'. But still cavalry charges makes me wonder. I'm ok with cavalry charge in general it is just that cavalry units should be more expensive and all factions should have long spear units.
You cannot stand still and w8 for the cav charge to hit as you could in MTW , but countering the massed cav charge with 1 unit then hitting them on the sides
works very well ... even when using swords ...
For pike units to be of any use they not only have to be more availiable but far cheaper too to be of any use .... ( try hiding behind a pole when a missile comes :2thumbsup: )
All cavalry works but its far from invincible ... I tried it several times , and only on very experienced players ( thats what your clan is for to experiment on them :laugh4: ) ...and even when it works its hard work .... and basically the same goes for elephants , a 20 unit army can beat them easily ... ( I still ban them as I dont like battles where I have to run around until the elephants freak out ...)
TGI
All cavalry works but its far from invincible ...
Played against all Italian cav army already?
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