The Netherlands [Archive]

cegorach

11-16-2006, 22:01

The official thread will be used to add more information about the faction.

For now you can post anything you find useful including ideas for faction specific buildings, events, advisors etc MILITARY UNITS EXCLUDED - that is well researched and only later we will possibly need more details.

Crownsteler

11-18-2006, 16:23

I don't have MTW2, nor do I know what you really want, but I do I do have some ideas for specific buildings for the Dutch

Unique buildings
I don't know if you want to include them, but if you do, here are some of interest.
Stadhuis van Amsterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Palace_%28Amsterdam%29) (cityhall of Amsterdam);
it was build in 1650, so perhaps a bit late for the game, so maybe it can be buildable and give some public order/happiness bonus (it should be rather expensive though)
Nieuwe Kerk Delft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieuwe_Kerk_%28Delft%29);
It serves as the royal mausoleum, virtual all royalty and stadhouders are burried here, unfortunatly, the mod starts in 1570 (right?), and this building became only really important in 1584 when William the Silent was burried here, so I don't know.
Headquarters of the VOC in Amsterdam.
The VOC was pretty much the largest and most succesful private company in the world in the 17th and 18th century, its headquarters in Amsterdam really deserves to be there (and give a large trade bonus), the only problem is that the VOC only started in 1602, which is after the starting date of the game.
The Binnenhof in The Hague (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnenhof)
The binnenhof was the location of the Dutch parliament, so it might make a good unique building.
The Cathedral of Saint Martin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Martin%2C_Utrecht) (also known as the Dom, after its tower)
The largest (and only, at that time) cathedral in the Netherlands, it also has the tallest churchtower of the Netherlands. The only problem I could see with it is that the Netherlands was a protestant (calvenistic) country, and thus they may not have been very fond of this symbol of catholism and excess, but still, it was a landmark.
Leiden university (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden_University)
Founded in 1575, after the siege of Leiden was lifted. The problem though is that it was founded following a specific series of events, so it might not make for a good unique building.

General buildings:
Kamer van de VOC (chamber of the VOC)
it was the local office of the VOC in the Netherlands, could give a nice trade bonus
Collectiegebouw (Collection office)
Such buildings were the taxcollection offices for the provinces, so they could give a tax bonus.
Waag ("Weigh House")
Site where goods were weighed before the sale, there was also a small tax levied at these places.
It could be an improvement of the trading infrastructur, which improves trade and tax.

I'll see if I can come up with more later.

Cities
I don't know how many provinces you'd like to use for the republic, but here is a list of important cities from the Netherlands:
Amsterdam, largest, most important and richest city of the republic.
Leiden, second largest city, and at one point even the largest, city in the republic, center of the textile industrie in the republic
Haarlem, thirth city of the republic in terms of population, industrial center
Den Haag (the Hague), seat of the parliament, but nothing more really.
Dordrecht, one of the larger cities, trade center, and also a political and religious center
Breda, important fortress in the south.
Middelburg, large trading center (both VOC and WIC), also a chamber of both
Delft, for a time home of William the Silent, it also had its own chamber of the VOC and was an industrial center.
Enkhuizen, large fishing city, also a large trading center and home of a chamber of the VOC
Groningen
Den Bosch
Leeuwarden, capital of Friesland
Maastricht, a large fortress in the south
Rotterdam, a port and had a chamber of the VOC
Gouda, another large city

I'll see if I can add some more later, I shall also look at cities in Belgium

Territories under controll
Personally, I find the year 1570 a bit of a bad choice as a starting date for the Netherlands, the revolt was going, but most major cities were in the hands of the Spaniards (I'll see if I can find out which exactly), 1572, 1576 or 1579 would be a much better starting date. In 1572 a number of important cities came in the hands of the revolt, and in 1576, the pacification of Ghent gave the revolt pretty much the whole of the Netherlands, and 1579, with the union of Utrecht we have a better distinction of who owned what.
Here is a map of the devision in 1579:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nl/a/a0/Utrecht-atrecht.jpg
Yellow, union of Utrecht (the Netherlands)
Grey, union of Atrecht (the Spaniards)
Green, supporter of to the union of Atrecht

This is how I would (ideally) see the provinces distributed, though 16 may be a bit much
https://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9827/provincesby6.gif (https://imageshack.us)
With the capitals/ports:
North Holland:
Amsterdam/Enkhuizen
South Holland:
Leiden orThe Hague/Rotterdam
Friesland:
Leeuwarden/Dokkum
Groningen (known as Stad en Lande in the 17th century)
Groningen/Delftzijl
Drenthe (might also become generaliteits land, or part of Groningen?)
Emmen
Gelre:
Nijmegen or Zutphen/Harderwijk
North Brabant:
Den Bosch
Zeeland::
Middelburg/Den Briel
Flanders:
Gent (Ghent)/Brugge
West Brabant:
Antwerp
South Brabant:
Brussels
Limburg:
Maastricht
Artesie:
Atrecht(arres)/Dunkirk (or just Dunkirk as city)
Henegouwe:
?
Namen:
Namen
Luxembourg:
Luxembourg?

If these are to many provinces, which it probally is, you can fuse these provinces:
Artesie/Henegouwe
Luxemburg/Names (or Liege/Names)
West Brabant/South Brabant
Groningen/Drenthe (maybe Friesland) into Stad en Lande
North and South Holland (though I prefer to keep the destinction :))

In 1570 I would give Holland, Zeeland Utrecht, Gelre and maybe Flanders and West Brabant to the Netherlands.
In 1576 and 1579 I would give pretty much everything to the Dutch, except Luxembourg, Names, Henegouwe, Artesie, Limburg, North Brabant and Groningen.
I would at Friesland to the Netherlands only if the starting date is 1579, otherwise as independant rebel or to Spain.
The city of Groningen remained loyal to Spain untill captured in 1594.

I'll see if I can add more later.

Actually, looking at this, 1570 might make for an interesting start. :)

Stig

11-18-2006, 18:57

You're forgetting Overijssel, with as capital Oldenzaal or Kampen. It was important enough to have it's own province, if Drenthe would be one
It's next to the German Munsterland

edit:
But still it's far too much provinces imo anyway

Crownsteler

11-19-2006, 13:50

Yeah, I completely forgot about it, I only remembered it after I had already posted it, but oh well.
It are indeed to many provinces (but it would have been ideal though), so I reduced it to 8 in total:
https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4391/pmtwet6.gif (https://imageshack.us)
I combined Zeeland and Holland, but kept Amsterdam as a seperate province as it only joined the rebellion very late.
I also combined Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe in one province, Stad en Lande.
Utrecht and Gelre are one.
Flanders and South Brabant are also one.
North Brabant would have to be seperate.
I joined the Southern provinces as one.
I guess the best thing to do with Limburg is to join it with Luxembourg.

At the beginning of the game The Netherlands should thus be controlling
Holland & Zeeland
Utrecht
Flanders
The Spaniards should be controlling
Stad en Lande
Amsterdam
North Brabant
Southern Netherlands
Luxembourg

DukeofSerbia

11-19-2006, 15:44

Was the name of state United Provinces?:book: Not the Netherlands.

Those are starting historical military leaders for United Provinces in 1570 from Europa Univesalis 2.

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 0262 }
category = admiral
name = "Bloys"
startdate = {
year=1565
}
deathdate = {
year=1594
}
rank = 3
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 0
}
historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 0265 }
category = admiral
name = "Joos de Moor"
startdate = {
year=1572
}
deathdate = {
year=1618
}
rank = 4
movement = 3
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
}
historicalleader = {
category = general
id = { type = 6 id = 2170 }
name = "Louis Nassau"
startdate = {
year=1557
}
deathdate = {
year=1574
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 2
shock = 2
siege = 1
}

mac89

11-19-2006, 16:27

Was the name of state United Provinces?:book: Not the Netherlands.

Indeed, United Provinces was the real name. The few provinces of the Netherlands to the south were dominated by Spain. Im creating a small mod about the occupation of the Netherlands so.....

Stig

11-22-2006, 10:50

Personally I would call it The Republic, as that is how we Dutch call it.

Anyway for Generals and such:
Willem van Oranje
Jan van Nassau (Brother of Willem, originally died in 1606, not a general, but a manager)
Lodewijk van Nassau (Brother of Willem, originally died in the battle at the Mookerheide in 1574)
Adolf van Nassau (Brother of Willem, originally died in 1568 in the battle for Heiligerlee)
Hendrik van Nassau (Brother of Willem, originally died in the battle at the Mookerheide in 1574)
Maurits (Son of Willem)
Frederik-Hendrik (Son of Willem)

Those were important persons, tho there are more

since the game starts in 1570 I would give The Netherlands only Holland and Utrecht, and make all else Spanish, but with a bad occupation, while The Netherlands has a strong army.
Historically The Netherlands didn't have anything in 1570

Wladyslaw IV

11-27-2006, 04:16

Rebelled 1560's. Indepedence officially recognized by Spain at Westphalia in 1648.

Ahh, New Amsterdam... Founded 1618 seized by England in Second Anglo-Dutch Naval war in 1660 I believe.

Stig

11-27-2006, 15:42

Aye 1566, the so called Beeldenstorm, smashing of churches and other catholic things
1568, Battle at Heiligerlee, official start of the 80 years war, the Dutch Rebels lost it
1572, Den Briel got captured
1579, Union of Utrecht, the official founding of The Republic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map-1579_Union_of_Utrecht.png
more irritating numbers
1648, Spain officially loses the war, tho they recognized The Republic before.

RaZoRsHaRp

11-29-2006, 17:57

Don't include the province now named Utrecht under that name as the actual province of Utrecht lost all of it's power in 1580. At that time it ceased to exist as a diocese (the catolics lost control in favor of the protestants). Only the Spanish controled soutern part remained catholic for the most, a division still present today.

Tellos Athenaios

11-29-2006, 18:32

For the record:

The Republic of the Seven United Provinces of the Netherlands (which is a Federation, like the USA is today)

Officially consisting of 7 provinces, but actually 8 (Drenthe wasn't regarded as a proper province, but still...), and the Generaliteitslanden (parts of modern Brabant and Limburg).

The seven provinces or, better still, Gewesten (plural, singular is Gewest), are as follows:
1) Holland
2) Friesland
3) Zeeland
4) Utrecht
5) Gelderland
6) Groningen
7) Overijssel

(Not necessarily in that order, but keep in mind that in economic figures the first 3 are by far the most important.)

As stated before, Drenthe was a separate 'member of the federation', yet not fully considered to be.

And remember: in theory ( = under the law) all members were independant from the others, yet held together by the federation called Staten Generaal, which seated in Den Haag. Much, much like the EU nowadays. In reality however, all were in economic terms depending on trade with Holland, the Gewest that in fact even payed taxes for the others. The only exceptions may be Zeeland and Friesland (Zeeland was the second largest member in the VOC, and Friesland controlled most of the lucrative Butter trade).

So it's ridiculous to state that Utrecht lost it's power in 1580, as it didn't. And whether or not there was a diocese (which was restored in 1857, if I'm correct) didn't matter at all, since the bishop was a mere figurehead. By then, his colleagues lost their power long ago to the citizens of the town of Utrecht, dating as far back as the heydays of the middle ages.

cegorach

11-29-2006, 18:54

Can you post some city plans - at least more important.

I will try to add at least some of those in the mod in as realitic way as possible.:book:

Stig

11-30-2006, 00:40

City plans of Holland in that time, mmm will be difficult, maybe someone can find the maps by Bleau

Crownsteler

12-02-2006, 10:57

Not that difficult:
(click to enlarge)
Amsterdam, 1572:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/amsterdam/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_20_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/amsterdam/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_20_b.jpg)

Amsterdam, before 1650
http://historie.denhaag.org/amsk001x.jpg

Antwerp, 1572:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/antwerpen/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_17_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/antwerpen/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_17_b.jpg)

Bruges, 1572:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/bruges/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_16_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/bruges/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_16_b.jpg)

Brussels, 1572:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/brussels/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_14_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/brussels/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_14_b.jpg)

Den Bosch, before 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/dbosx.gif

Den Haag (the Hague), before 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/krtdh02x.jpg
(notice, no walls)

Ghent, 1572:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/ghent/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_15_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/ghent/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_15_b.jpg)
(no walls?)

Groningen, 1575:
http://193.206.197.50/geoweb/mmfiles/jpg/211c5/0400092b.jpg

Groningen, before 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/gronx.jpg

Haarlem, 1575:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/haarlem/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_26_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/haarlem/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_26_b.jpg)

Leiden, 1575:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/leiden/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_25_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/leiden/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_25_b.jpg)

Leiden, before 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/ldnk001x.gif

Maastricht, befor 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/mstrichtx.gif

Middelburg, 1575:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/middelburg/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_28_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/middelburg/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_28_b.jpg)

Middelburg, before 1650?
http://historie.denhaag.org/midburg.gif

Namen, 1575
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/namur/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_20_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/namur/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_20_b.jpg)

Utrecht, 1575:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/utrecht/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_19_s.jpg (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/netherlands/utrecht/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_19_b.jpg)

(there are a lot more of such maps here (http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/search_a_z.html) and here (http://www.let.rug.nl/~maps/))

Can you tell us what cities and provinces you want to include, so we can give you as much historic information as possible about them?

cegorach

12-06-2006, 09:17

cegorach

12-07-2006, 11:41

Unit roster.

Generally the Dutch created modern, professional force which however was for much time to valuable to risk in open battles unless really necessary.

The army was more to support the line of defence created by numerous fortifications than to decide the fate of a war on teir own.

The firepower was the decisive factor in Dutch victories against pikemen-heavy Spanish forces. Cavalry was few in numbers and supported infantry more than acted on their own.
The Dutch were also one of the first nations to use flintlock muskets and later created higly successfull platoon firefight tactics making their Line Infantry especially deadly.

Finally the Dutch used their powerful economy to hire numerous mercenaries - often from Switzerland.

Cavalry

Gheappoicteerde curassiers - cuirassiers were few in numbers but better than in other western armies,

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/Imperial20Cuirassier201640.jpg

Ghemeijn ruyteren
- rather ordinary Reiters, though in smaller numbers. Most likely abandoned armour rather quickly.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/swe162uq.jpg

Infantry

Piekeniers met rondas
- early pikemen using round shields, abandoned later. Were armoured for sure, but how well it is a different question. I believe it was similar to the Spanish Corselets, but we will see if that is accurate.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/armadapiechotazflandrii.jpg

Piekeniers

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/soldiersoftheenglishcivilwarpa110.jpg

Watergeuzen - the light infantry made from religious fanatics, pirates, corsairs and generally guerillas of all kinds.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/elizabethanseadogs15601605019a.jpg

Musketiers
- larger numbers than avarage musketeers, perhaps 'swines feathers' were used more often than in other armies...

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/soldiersoftheenglishcivilwarpa100.jpg

Garde te voet van zijne Majesteit
- the elite of late Dutch armies (left).

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/gardes.jpg

Regiment de Marine
- one of the most successfull units of marines at that time. It was one of the few foreign regiments which won on the English soil against the natives.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/ColonialAmericanTroops1610-1774-02.jpg

Fuisilliers
- after Poland and France the Netherlands were another country to form units of infantry designed to protect the artillery.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/dutch%20-%20hugenot/BranderburczycyIIpol.jpg

+ in addition the army will get support from mercenaries of many types and English veterans sent by the queen and kings of England to support the rebellion.

OVERALL 9 units + officers,

Stig

12-07-2006, 17:15

Stig

12-07-2006, 19:11

Advisors:
Johan van Oldebarnevelt

that's the only real advisor I can think of, but these might be good to:
Rembrandt van Rijn (painter)
Anthony van Leeuwenhoek (scientist)
Constantijn Huygens (poet)
Christiaan Huygens (homo universalis)
Jan Leeghwater (engineer)
Joost van den Vondel (poet)
Baruch de Spinoza (philosopher)
Johannes Vermeer (painter)
Frans Hals (painter)
Jacob van Campen (engineer)
Pieter Cornelisz. Hooft (historian)

this might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Age%2C_List_Of_People#Music

cegorach

12-07-2006, 19:49

[QUOTE]Garde te voet van zijne Majesteit = This means Footguards of His Majesty. Since The Republic didn't have a "majesty" the name might be dubious. After 1640 the Stadhouders began to see themselves as kings, before that they were normally elected by the Parlaiment

Correct, were created around 1648

Fuisilliers = Fusilliers is the correct word

The unit will use name in English ( one unit for 4 factions):book:

Tellos Athenaios

12-07-2006, 19:57

The United Provinces will get 3-4 provinces i the new map. It will be crowded place, though.

If you have any prposals for

traits - this could represent also things such as political faction's membership,

advisors,

items (given to leaders),

I am interested.

Basically propose something which would be unique for the Dutch.

I will post the unit roster tomorrow.

Something unique for the Dutch... hmmm...
What about their naval industry? They were the first to use saws powered by mills on an indusrial basis, they were probably the first to allow companies to wage war for them powered by the State.

As for traits:
Secretly Catholic,
Member of the 17 who control the VOC.
From Holland - more inclined to trade
From Friesland - more inclined to farm
From the Generaliteitslanden - more inclined to be Catholic/ support Catholic causes and to be confronted with mistrust
Been in the East
etc.

About Ghemeijn > Gemeen > Common or could be Mean. So that would be Common Horsemen, in English.
Regiment de Marine = Regiment from the Navy (the guys who serverd as protection from pirates on the mercantile vessels)

Stig

12-07-2006, 20:07

Guilds:

The East India Company, better for trade
The West India Company, allows you to create Privateers(?), better navy

About Ghemeijn > Gemeen > Common or could be Mean. So that would be Common Horsemen, in English.
Regiment de Marine = Regiment from the Navy (the guys who serverd as protection from pirates on the mercantile vessels)
About Ghemeijn, yeah common that's what I thought too, that would make them Algemene Ruiterij (or something)
The Marines aren't a regiment, it's a corps. They were founded to do naval landings btw

Tellos Athenaios

12-08-2006, 12:54

I simply did some translation on those names, as I happen to be Dutch myself. Then I remembered the soldiers who were always enlisted on the mercantile vessels on their way to the east and west - so I thought, well then, that's probably them.

Tellos Athenaios

12-08-2006, 12:57

Guilds:

The East India Company, better for trade
The West India Company, allows you to create Privateers(?), better navy

I'd say the West India Company allows you to find Pirates for your cause. As it wasn't uncommon for ships using the WIC flag to raid other ships (mostly Spanish, and sometimes British or French).

Tellos Athenaios

12-08-2006, 13:05

If you want to use original settlement plans, I suggest you try the Kadaster - a Dutch institution that keeps record of every parcel in the Netherlands, since long. You can find them all on the Internet (for free).

Crownsteler

12-08-2006, 20:00

If you keep the starting date at 1570, do be aware that the rebelion was pretty much crushed, in 1570 the rebels controlled little to no territory

Traits:
(I don't know if all of this is possible, but I think it would interesting
Political Traits
Stadthouder van Holland, Zeeland en Utrecht
This person has attained the position of Stadholder of Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht, the most prestitious political position in the Republic!
effect: very, big influece boost (+4?), governs best in Holland & Zeeland and Utrecht

Stadthouder van Friesland
This person has attained the position of Stadholder of Friesland, a very prestitious poltical postion in the Republic.
effect: large influence boost (+3?), governs best in Stad en Landen

Stadhouder van Groningen
This person has attained the position of Stadholder of Friesland, a prestitious poltical postion in the Republic.
effect: large influece boost(+2?), governs best in Stad en Landen

Stadhouder van Gelre
This person has attained the position of Stadholder of Gelre, a respectable poltical postion in the Republic.
effect: influence boost(+1?), governs best in Utrecht

Stadhouder van Overijsel
This person has attained the position of Stadholder of Overijsel, a respectable poltical postion in the Republic.
effect: influence boost(+1?), governs best in Utrecht or Stad en Landen

Only one of each of these at a time, characters can hold more then 1 at one time, but not all have to be in use at the same time.

Landsadvocaat/Raadpensionaris
This man has become the Land's Advocate/Grand Pensionary, he is respondsable for setting the agenda of the Staten-Generaal and summerising the meetings. A skilled man in this situation could controll the entire desicion-making process.
effects: large influence boost (+3?), only one at a time.

Gouverneur-Generaal
This man is the Governer General of a colony and subsequently the most important person in that colony.
effects: influence boost (+2?), increase in trade revenue, increase in law (+2?), governs best in a colony, cannot hold the position of stadhouder or Landsadvocaat/Raadpensionaris at the same time.

Member of the Heren XVII
This man is one of the Heren XVII, the governing body of the VOC, the East Indies Company. A highly prestigious and important position from which he is sure to make personal gain.
effects: influence boost (+3?), increase in trade revenue. at most there should only be 17 at one time.

Member of the Heren XIX
This man is one the Heren XIX, the governing body of the WIC, the West Indies Company. A prestigious and important position which is sure to increase his personal wealth.
effects: influence boost (+2?), increase in trade revenue. at most there should only be 19 of them at one time.

Military Traits:
Kapitein-Generaal van het Leger
This man has become the captain-general of the army, the supreme commander of the army.
effects: influence boost (+3?), command boost (+3?)

Stedendwinger
This man has shown great skill at taking cities.
effects: increase command when assaulting a city.

Personality Traits
Silent
This person rarely speeks out clearly on controversial matters at the court or in public.
effects: decrease unrest (in cities with a large religious minority), decreases influence (?)

Paleizenbouwer/Palacebuilder
This man has build many great palaces, his experience with large building projects is sure to pay off during other construction projects.
effects: decrease building costs

Royal ambitions
This man cannot get enough of power and has had enough of the republican system, he is trying to establish a monarchy with himself as monarch. The (other) members of the states are starting to view him with certain distrust.
effects: increase in unrest, decrease in law, possibly decrease loyalty of other characters?

Been in the East
This man has been to the far east

Been in the West

Etnicity
Dutch
This person was born and raised in the Netherlands, or at least his parents were.
effects: none, required for the traits, From Holland, From Friesland, From the Generaliteitslanden.

From Holland
This person is from the province of Holland, the leading trading and industrial center in the Netherlands.
effects: increase in trade income, decreased cost of building trade-related structures, governs best in Holland & Zeeland

From Friesland

effects: increase in farming income, decreased cost of building farm-related structures, governs best in Stad & Landen

From the Generaliteitslanden
This person is from the Generaliteitsland, a traditionally catholic region of the Netherlands and is therefor viewed with a certain mistrust.
effects: more inclined to be Catholic, decrease in influence (-1?)

Non-Dutch
This person is not of Dutch origin. He has either immigrated or came from one of the colonies, either way, he is viewed with a certain distrust.
effects: decrease in influence (-1?)

Van Oranje-Nassau
This man is a member of the family of Oranje Nassau, the primary family in the republic. It is even likely that he is a direct descendant of Willem de Zwijger.
effects: increase in influence (+1?)

Religious traits:
Secretly Catholic
This man secretly adheres to the Catholic fate, something which should be kept a secret, as catholics are banned from holding any political offices
effects: decrease in influence (-2?), governs slightly better in a catholic city, decreases troop morale(?), decrease of loyalty. if the character has difficulty holding a secret or is very talkative, it should increase his chances of becoming Openly Catholic.

Openly Catholic
This man is open about his adherence to the Catholic fate, or it has been exposed, something which he might have wanted to hold a secret.
effects: large decrease in influence (-5?), governs better in a catholic city, decrease troop morale by a large amount(?), large decrease in loyalty. cannot hold political or military office.

Converted to Protestantism
This man is coverted to protestantism, a move which might, or might not serve him well in the future.
effects: slight boost of loyalty, can only be attained if character was Secretly Catholic or Openly Catholic, adopted characters can also carry this trait.

Converted to Catholism
This man is converted to catholism, he might just as well have commited suicide.
effects: very big fall in influence (-10?), decrease troop morale by a very large margin, very big decrease in loyalty, cannot hold political or military office.

Devout Protestant
This man is a very devout protestant.
effects: large increase in loyalty, increase in influence (+1?), governs very poorly in catholic cities.

Remonstrant

effects: decrease influence (or loyalty) if 'faction leader' is contraremonstrant. (possibly not possible)

Contraremonstrant

effects: decrease influence (or loyalty) if 'faction leader' is remonstrant. (possibly not possible)

I did expand on the suggestions by Tellos Athenaios, I hope you don't mind.
It is only a start, please do add more if you have ideas. Oh, and like I said, I don't know if it is all possible

Tellos Athenaios

12-09-2006, 00:07

Landsadvocaat/Raadpensionaris
This man has become the Land's Advocate/Grand Pensionary, he is respondsable for setting the agenda of the Staten-Generaal and summerising the meetings. A skilled man in this situation could controll the entire desicion-making process.
effects: large influence boost (+3?), only one at a time.

Etnicity
Non-Dutch
This person is not of Dutch origin. He has either immigrated or came from one of the colonies, either way, he is viewed with a certain distrust.
effects: decrease in influence (-1?)

Allow me to contnue your line of thought by adding something of mine:

Every Gewest had it's own Raadpensionaris, which acted in the same way a member of the European Parliament does today - especially like the French. He is a very powerfull man indeed, and is the only true rival of any Stadhouder. But when he travels to the Hague his only job is to stick to whatever his Gewest has instructed him to do; should the need arise he will go back to his Gewest to receive further instructions. So you could have a Raadpensionaris for each Gewest, and more importantly portray the balance of power within the political system.

I'd also suggest you make a clear distinction between wealthy (Portugese Jews, French Protestants) and poor people from non Dutch origin. Portugese Jews should also be more inclined to settle in the West, so someone with this trade should be more likely to attain trades involving the West Indies.

Also you may want to add traits such as, 'been captured by the Spanish' - which could create/enhance a hatred towards everything related to Spain. And finally you could include traits as Patrician, Burger, Bedeelde (only for adopted FM's, as this is the very lowest property class, existing of all people who regularly or occasionally had to rely on charity to provide for them) etc. Of course Patrician would come with both an influence boost, increased chance to be corrupted, and more likely to be loyal. Burger would have no significant effects, and Bedeelde would have an influence penalty and an increased loyality.

Crownsteler

12-09-2006, 16:25

I didn't include the other raadpensionarises because the raadpensionaris of Holland (Grand Pensionary) was the most imporatant and the others weren't that important on the grand scale of things, tho there could be a general raadspensionaris trait which would give a small influence bonus.

Last night I was also thinking about how the political rivalty in the Republic could be represented. I was think, what if all characters get an loyalty boost when the republic is at war with Spain, while they should get a small decrease in loyalty when the republic is at war with Spain, this could nicely represent the fact that the republic was quite coherent when it was at war with Spain, while there was a lot of infighting when the republic was at peace with Spain.

Also, I was think, what if there was a system which would give a number of the characters a trait which indicate to what family they belong, and then give them a small loyalty boost if a family member is 'faction leader', while they would suffer a loyalty penalty if a member of another family is 'faction leader'.
for example, you could have a family member which has a trait which indicates he is a member of the van Oldenbarnevelt family, and then if another member of the van Oldenbarnevelt family is 'faction leader', he gets a small loyalty boost, while he would suffer a loyalty penalty if a member of the van Oranje-Nassua family was the 'faction leader'.
We'd just need a list of important families and they loyalties.
Some of the important families of the time:
Van Oranja-Nassua
Van Oldenbarnevelt
De Witt

And some people which may make good ancilliaries:
Architects:
Lieven de Key
Hendrick de Keyser
Jacob van Campen
Arent van 's-Gravenzande
Elias Bouman

Scientists:
Simon Stevin
Jan Leeghwater
Hugo Grotius
Christiaan Huygens
Baruch de Spinoza
Antonius van Leeuwenhoek
Cornelis Corneliszoon

Writers:
Joost van den Vondel
Gerbrand Adriaenszoon Bredero
Pieter Corneliszoon Hooft
Jacob Cats
Jacob Revius
Constantijn Huygens (also composer)

Explorers:
Adriaen Block
Abel Janszoon Tasman
Willem Barentsz
Cornelis Nay
(see this list on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_the_Dutch_Golden_Age))

Stig

12-09-2006, 16:43

Orange-Nassau family tree
http://www.geerts.com/holland/orange-house.htm

you'll have to scroll down to William 1 the Silent

Admirals and such:
Michiel de Ruyter
Peit Heijn
Maarten Tromp
Witte de With

dragnipura

12-10-2006, 03:30

LS,

I'm dutch myself, and although most of the reactions are quite good and accurate, I think it goes to deep for the game. The input must be limited.

Start date:

1572

Although the 80year war started in 1568 (Battle at Oosterlee (modern day "Heiligerlee")), the uprising officially started in 1572.

Faction Name:

The official name: "Republic of the Seven Provinces", thought historical correct, may be quite a mouthful. But it is often refered to as the "Seven Provinces". The latter seems more suitable for the game.

Faction Leader:

Very difficult. The 7 provinces was a federation officially ruled by the State-General under rule of a Grand-Pensionary and unofficially by a collective of Stadhouders (Stewarts) and the Heeren XVII (board of directors) of the VOC (East India Company).

But if you have to choose a leader, the Stewart of Holland was always the most powerful stewart of the 7 provinces, because Holland almost generated two-third of the annual income. Besides that, the VOC Chamber in Amsterdam
was as well the most powerful of all the Chambers. And notably, since 1585 most of the time the Stewart of Holland was a member of the Nassau-family (Nassau is a small duch in Germany (borderarea Hessen-Reinland Pfalz), our later royal family (even till today). Of course in that time (pre-royal time) the Nassaus were of noble blood, the family-leader holding the title "Prince of Orange (a small french principality, in Dutch called "Oranje")

And in the later period, the Orange-heir controled all the steward-offices.

To summarize: Most of the time the Prince of Orange was the most powerful man of the 7 Provinces.

To be specific:

Faction leader title: Prince
Name: "Name" of Orange-Nassau (van Oranje-Nassau)

Provinces:

As its only getting 2 provinces, the regions it would be best to cover (don't no if you can shift boundary coordinates) are modern day provinces Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland (historically "Holland"), Zeeland, Friesland, Groningen (historically "Stad en Ommelanden", Overijssel (hst. "Oversticht"), Drenthe (hst. deemed inferior as mentioned before) Gelderland (hst. "Gelre"), Utrecht.

Designated cities:

Amsterdam (what else?)
Middelburg (everybody goes : ?)

Why Middelburg? Because those two cities were the main hubs of power within the VOC (and as such in The Netherlands). When you realy study the history of the VOC (East India Company), you will come to know that those cities rivaled each other all the time. Al the great admirals came either from Holland (De Ruyter, Tromp, de With and many others) or Zeeland (the Cornelissen family (about 4 of them) and many others).

And also important; both cities had a VOC Chamber.

Special buildings (faction unique):

V.O.C. Chamber (HQ's of the VOC, Amsterdam and Middelburg a.o.)

- increase of trade?
- bonus for happiness? (those chambers delivered an enormous amount of free labor spaces in the region and gave prestige to a city)
- needed to build a special naval unit?
- needed to train a certain "pimped" merchant?

Stockmarket (can only be build in Amsterdam)

The 7 provinces introduced the modern way of stocktrading in 1602 in a very alike form still used today. They are not the inventors of it, but they are the ones that introduced the form of stocktrading still used today. In fact, the Dutch encountered the first ever known stock market crash; in 1637 the value of tulip bulbs (typically) collapsed after a economic bubble and almost killed the Dutch economy. Don't forget; large economical bubbles are still called "Tulipomania" in english.

Special Units:

For all the landunits i can refer to former forum posts. But the Dutch must get a naval bonus, for they were (truly astonishing) the naval power of the world during the period 1600-1750.

Suggestion for land unit:

If the others gave to much units, one you should surely contain:

(water)geuzen: poorly armed fanatics with a strong charge
(played a vital role in the indep.war)

Suggestion for naval unit:

Fluyt (Flute): Truly faction-unique naval unit. Mid-sized but powerful ship.

Names:

Maurits
Frederik (hst. Frederick)
Frederik Hendrik (hst. Frederick Hendrick)
Hendrik (hst. Hendrick)
Willem
Adolf
Philips (Filips)
Lodewijk (hst. Lodewijck)
Jan
Adriaan (hst. Adriaen)
Cornelis
Casimir
Johan(nes)
Karel
Floris
Piet
Claes
Cees
Theo(door)
Louis
Dir(c)k
Ant(h)on(ie)
Rutger

Surnames:

(all derived of surnames of admirals and colonial governers etc.)

Cornelissen (short for Corneliszoon - Cornelis' son)
Adriaensz. (short for Adriaenszoon - Adriaens' son)
Jansz. (short for Janszoon - Jan's zoon)
Eerens
van Twist
van Riebeeck
Maetsuycker
van Hoorn
Brouwer
van Reyn
Daendels
de Graeff
van (der) Wijck
M(e)ijer
de Kock
de Clerck
Simonsz. (short for Simonszoon - Simon's son - getting tiresome)
de Groot
Michiels
de Bruyn
Dekker
(van) Dijck
Princen (Prinsen)
van Houten
Kamp
Claesz. (like the others before indeed)
Pieters(sen) (indeed short for...)
Dirckx (Dirc(ks-x)z.) (and again short for...)

Unique Retinues:

suggestions:

General

Steward : gives a bonus governing a city
Grand Pensionary: gives a bigger bonus
(Officially

Merchant

Shareholder : increase in trade-ability
VOC-executive: further increase

Celebrities:

Johan van Oldebarneveldt (Grand Pensionary)
Johan de Witt (Grand Pensionary)
Michiel Adriaensz. de Ruyter ((most famous) dutch "admiral")
Witte de With ("admiral")
Maarten Harpertsz. Tromp ("admiral")
Jan Adriaensz. Leeghwaeter (millbuilder and the founding father of largescale land-reclamation - "the man who created holland")
Jan Cornelisz. Coen (one of the most powerful persons within the VOC)
Hugo de Groot (Hugo Grotius) (founding father of international law)

This concludes my ideas (suggestions) for the Dutch faction within this mod.
I hope you can work with this, or even better: incorporate some of it. After all, got to keep my vanity in good shape.

dragnipura

12-10-2006, 04:14

Addition:

Events:

Suggestions:

(The establishment of the) V.O.C. (1602)

Rather obvious, a great boost in economy and tradable resources.

(The establishment of the) Amsterdam Stockmarket (1609)

Great boost in economy.

The rise of Leeghwaeter (1607)

1607 is the start of a 36 year period in which Leeghwaeter reclaimed large parts of Holland. -- More land, more crops. Because the so called "polders"
were extremely fertile. More tax-income?

Torrentius' Circle (1623)

A painter in Harlem (Johannes van der Beeck a.k.a. Johannes Torrentius) was the unofficial leader of a (non-aggresive) group of heretics. One of the suspected aquaintices was Jeronimus Cornelisz. the person responsible for the Mutiny on the Batavia (1629)

Tulipmania (1630)

As mentioned before the great economic bubble.

The collapse of the Tulipmania (1637)

As mentioned before the near-fatal blow to the dutch economy.

Raid on the Medway (Tocht naar Chatham) (1667)

Decisive blow to the English. They went with a fleet up the Thames, and destroyed a couple of very important ships and one of their main-wharves.
Result: Dutch morale skyhigh, English below zero (in combination with the plague and the great fire)

Rampjaar (1672)

A large scale invasion which led to the loss of 3 of the central provinces and also led to a (minor) civil war.

Edict of Fontainebleau (1685)

Edict of Louis XIV of France which revoked the Edict of Nantes. In casu it declared that protestantism was illegal which spawned a major flow of protestants to The Netherlands. Among them were a lot of scientist and craftsman.

Bankruptcy of the V.O.C. (1798)

Rather obvious, major downnote in economy and tradable resources.

Tellos Athenaios

12-10-2006, 10:59

The Stewart of Holland, generally speaking was also the Stewart of Gelre, Utrecht, Zeeland, Overijssel, and he was a direct male successor to Willem the Silent. Friesland and Groningen had a different Stewart, and to be correct those Stewarts form the 'Frisian line' within the van Oranje Nassau family and are the line which 'produces' the today's kings and queens of the Netherlands.

Crownsteler

12-10-2006, 14:22

Dragnipura, while your suggestions are pretty good, I think you are forcing the player to much to recreate a historical scenario, I think you should allow the player much more imput.

For starters, I would name the faction "Republic of the United Netherlands(/Provinces)", not "Republic of the Seven Provinces". Why? Because the player isn't forced to stay in the area historical under control of the Republic, a player, for example, could conquer the Southern Netherlands, or lose part of the Republican lands, either way, the republic wouldn't consist of 7 provinces anymore, so the term Republic of the Seven Provinces would be inacurate, while the term Republic of the United Netherlands would remain accurate, no matter how many territories you'd win or loose.

The faction leader at the start of the game should be without a doubt William the Silent, and I would combine the position of faction leader with that of stadhouder van Holland & Zeeland, why? Because he was in de facto control of the republic. However, I wouldn't name the position of faction leader 'prince' or automaticly name them of Orange, because then again you would be forcing the player to play certain scenario, instead of giving him options. Besides, it wouldn't be very accurate to automaticly make the Oranje-Nassau the factionleader and it would serverly oversimplefy the reality of politcal life in the Republic.

The game automaticly assigns the position of faction heir to the most influention family member, thus giving members of the Oranje-Nassau family a influence boost to start with makes it more likely that they will be assigned the position of faction heir, but it wouldn't be forced.

As for the provinces, it are going to be 3-4, not 2 right? And even then Middelburg wouldn't be my second choice. For gameplay reasons alone it would be better to spread it out, but even if that wasn't the case, I'd rather include other cities. I don't feel like going into much detail right now, but personally, I wouldn't include it.

Lord Adherbal

12-19-2006, 20:29

Ghemeijn ruyteren = ruyteren should be Ruiters, dunno what the first word is supposed to be tho

I wouldn't be so sure about that, modern day dutch is not the same as old dutch. Hence the dutch name "de Ruyter".

The Stranger

12-28-2006, 18:36

naval retinues

admiral Jan Tromp (command bonus)
Piet Heijn (command bonus)
admiral De Ruijter (command bonus)
Brothers De Wit (command bonus)

Tellos Athenaios

12-28-2006, 19:44

I'd rather have the admirals as admirals in game, instead of as retinue...

The Stranger

12-29-2006, 20:38

hmmm... can... they can also be a retinue to a fleet... i don't know how hard it is to get a admiral to spawn in the time period you want him to...

I've got a book about the VOC... i'll check it... post t\found things later...

Moros

12-29-2006, 21:32

I wouldn't be so sure about that, modern day dutch is not the same as old dutch. Hence the dutch name "de Ruyter".
Was there a uniform spelling in the Netherlands at that time?

Edit: what is the starting time anyway?

Also about names, only those of true historical persons, or do other names from that time also qualify?
Btw: I'm pleased to see that ethnicities are also be included just as in EB.

Edit2: if certain information is wanted I can also have a look if I can find anything usefull. However I'm not a historian or something.

Moros

12-29-2006, 21:58

Aye, The Republic used loads of mercs.

Anyway you might want to work on the names of the units as it isn't the Dutch I speak (well for some)

Gheappoicteerde curassiers = dunno what you mean by the first word, Kurassiers
is the more correct tho, both can be used afaik, but we Dutch prefer the K

Hmmm I'm not sure wether a k or a c would be used I don't think there was an actual spelling at this time. I know that before, the spelling and language relied on the place you were from and who had learned you to write. It may be that by this time there was an official spelling, but I don't think so. However for one reason or another I think a c looks more appropriate.

Ghemeijn ruyteren = ruyteren should be Ruiters, dunno what the first word is supposed to be thoi
Well Ruyteren can be correct. It was quite common to use the "uy". Medieval texts would have an uy. Not sure about this era, tough I think uy would be most probable. Ghemeijn probably comes form "gemeen" (not in the sense of evil,...) but from the sense of gemeenbest. Spelling could be right and could not be right.

Piekeniers met rondas = Rondas will be the shields, never heard of them, so I think they are named correctly
Well this is most certainly correct.

Piekeniers = correct
Correct.

Watergeuzen = correct
Correct modernspelling and I also believe it would have been back then.

Musketiers = correct
I guess it's correct.

Garde te voet van zijne Majesteit = This means Footguards of His Majesty. Since The Republic didn't have a "majesty" the name might be dubious. After 1640 the Stadhouders began to see themselves as kings, before that they were normally elected by the Parlaiment
Well, I can't recall there to be a king. So I guess it's wrong. If there was one the name should be correct, tough I don't really like it. You might want to change "van zijne" to "des". But the last part is okay, just don't like the first part. It's more a description than a name.

Regiment de Marine = I would call them Mariniers
Agree.
Fuisilliers = Fusilliers is the correct word[/QUOTE]
Fuisilliers is the correct term used now, no idea how they were called back then.

Moros

12-29-2006, 22:17

The Stranger

12-30-2006, 01:01

ive read about a regiment/corps of soldiers from the WIC/VOC... maybe they could be a special units... ill check for a pic and a better description

dutchfubar

12-30-2006, 11:00

I have a question about the castles/forts in the Netherlands. I don't know that much about history, but what I see in my neighbourhood (I live in the netherlands) is that there are more forts here that defended city's/villages then there where castles. These forts looked something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fortbourtange.jpg
Are these forts going to be in the game and if so how will you do it, because there are some serious restrictions in the totalwar script with putting in fortifications and stuff.

Tellos Athenaios

12-30-2006, 12:34

Hmmm I'm not sure wether a k or a c would be used I don't think there was an actual spelling at this time. I know that before, the spelling and language relied on the place you were from and who had learned you to write. It may be that by this time there was an official spelling, but I don't think so. However for one reason or another I think a c looks more appropriate.

Verry much correct. Until 1806 no such thing as an official spelling, or an official language for that matter, existed in the Netherlands.

Tellos Athenaios

12-30-2006, 12:41

Moros

12-30-2006, 13:12

About any Geuzen units: don't do it. Should you wish to pursue: they should be very, very weak. Only because of a) sheer numbers, b) English and French support, and c) chance did they play a role at all in battles. (If it wasn't for b and c the whole Uprising wouldn't have got very far.)

Cheap vessels were the key to their succes. (They were one of the first to build ships on an idustrial scale, using windmills to power the construction.) So perhaps, cheaper vessels would do?
Yes cheap vessels. And ofcourse they also had great Ports. Also Remember that the fluyt was originally desined so that they had to pay less taxes.

About the Guezen, it's hard to make one unit of it. Maybe it's better to just ahve a more generic levy like unit, which can also play the role of a geuzen unit.

About the spelling indeed there was a real first official one in the Netherlands in 1804 and later in Flanders too. But I'm not sure if there were commonly accepted spellings for certain words or sounds. I know a lot varied from region,... but somethings might have been common everywhere. I also don't know if there was a consistent spelling used by the government. Maybe we could use the spelling used in laws from back then, see if they were consistent or not? Tough I don't know if they are easy accesable...

One more thing do you guys need help with descriptions of buildings/units for the Netherlands?

Tellos Athenaios

12-30-2006, 13:21

Laws...
IF someone of the Dev's had acces to the library in the Hague and he did understand the whole lot: it would altogether be quite possible. But till then I wouldn't count on it.

Moros

12-30-2006, 13:32

Yeah, otherwise we could use the spelling of a certain writer. I should have some texts here from that era and I bet you can find some on the internet.

Anyway, I went trough quite a lot of unit images (Osprey's ect) but I couldn't find much specific from the Netherlands, I did from other countries but not from the Netherlands. Tough I'll have a look when I get to the Slegte (spelling?) the next time. They have Osprey books there.

Edit: talking about Naval units, what about Vlieboten? It's a boat with three masts. WHich was the type mostly used by the watergeuzen. Swift and with more men on it than ships of other nations (of the same size) would had on it.
This is what the historian J. C. De Jonge wrote:
'De schepen, welke voor de zee bestemd waren, bestonden meestal uit Vlieboten, eene soort van vaartuigen, niet grooter dan van veertig, honderd tot honderdveertig tonnen, welke gewapend waren met zes, acht, tien tot twintig grootendeels ijzeren, gegoten stukken geschut. Deze vaartuigen werden sterk bemand, en wel De Halve Maenmet zooveel personen als de schepen tonnen groot waren; zoodat een schip van vijtig ton vijftig, een schip van honderd tonnen, honderd zeelieden telde, die alle met schietgeweer gewapend en in het gebruik daarvan doorgaans zeer bedreven waren.

De overloop of het dek van deze vaartuigen was laag, hetwerlk om het enteren te beletten, wel voorzien was van boevenetten of traliewerk uit hont of geschoren touwen zamen gesteld, dat met ketenen gespannen was. Bovendien bevonden zich gewoonlijk omtrent de masten die meestal twee waren, eenige verschansingenm om de busschieters of arquebusiers te dekken.'

And:
'De vlieboten komen voor onder de naam van 's Prinsen groote schepen of Razeilen, naar de zeilen welke zij voerden'.

Another shiptype could be the "heudeschepen"

Tellos Athenaios

12-31-2006, 13:16

And what about Oostindievaarders: basically a mercantile ship equipped with some war gear. Heavvier equiped than most other mercantile vessels, these stood a change against pirates - though their best defense against well organised attacks still would be sheer numbers.

Moros

12-31-2006, 15:47

Yeah maybe, but I don't know what the unit limit is. If it is low they might not want to have taht many ships. So I don't think it would be bad having them, but I think Vlieboten and Fluyten should be the ones who should be in there first. Ofcourse the more the merrier.

Jobst_vonGrünungen

04-23-2007, 22:48

Would it be possible to have the leaders title be "Prince of Orange", as opposed to "Emperor" or "Doge" or "King"? Willem van Nassau, Prince of Orange? I guess the title would have to come first... Prince of Orange Willem? That doesnt sound very good. Prince Willem of Orange? That's a tough one. I definitely agree with the others though the Prince of Orange is probably the best title for the Dutch Faction Leader, as opposed to steward or what-have-you...

As for the spellings, I don't know if it helps at all to point this out but in Age of Empires III they spell it "Ruyters"... :yes:

Icefrisco

04-24-2007, 02:38

Would it be possible to have the leaders title be "Prince of Orange", as opposed to "Emperor" or "Doge" or "King"? Willem van Nassau, Prince of Orange? I guess the title would have to come first... Prince of Orange Willem? That doesnt sound very good. Prince Willem of Orange? That's a tough one. I definitely agree with the others though the Prince of Orange is probably the best title for the Dutch Faction Leader, as opposed to steward or what-have-you...

yeah its definitely possible. in fact its easy since even i am able to do it.

Moros

04-27-2007, 16:47

Ruyter is quite correct. Ruiter probably is too. But I prefer Ruyter, because of the archaic feel. And in most Medieval Dutch texts and most rennaisance texts I read the "uy" was used. I honestly can't remember even to have seen the "ui" spelling. Therefore I guess the "uy" was more common. We know it is correct and gives an Archaic touch. That's 3 reasons to use the "uy".

Red Spot

01-10-2008, 20:52

its "Michiel (Adriaenszoon) de Ruyter" and he founded the Marines, and defeated the english fleet in the 2nd dutch-english war ...

http://members.home.nl/tettero/ZuidHolland/Ruyter.htm
http://www.bataviawerf.nl/de_ruyter.html
http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Hans/voc.htm

a bit more modern;
http://www.deruyter.nl.nu

G

Master Young Phoenix

11-26-2008, 20:07

The "Zijne Majesteit's Garde te Voet" was a regiment formed by Stadhouder-King William III of England. I believe they fought in the williamite war and all others William III got involved in (against France too I think)

as for traits, I got a nice idea for you: In Rome: Total War (and even more in Europa Barbarorum) the Romans have the "Patrician/plebeian and "New Man/Optimatus" traits. likewise, in the Dutch Republic, from the reign of Frederik-Hendrik (royal aspirations) onwards, there was a divide between the "Regenten" and "Prinsgezinden". Basically the Regenten were the mercantile- and noble class and represented the Republicans. The Prinsgezinden were mostly the common people and had more "royalist" inclinations, they wanted an Orange-Nassau in charge of the republic and mistrusted the mercantile ways of the Regenten. Later, in the 1700's, the regenten became the "Patriotten" (patriots).

A "Prinsgezinde" family member would probably have more support from the common people, but will be lacking in Trade (penalty). A "Regent" should receive a bonus on trade, but also increase unrest.