View Full Version : Circassia
cegorach
11-16-2006, 22:16
The official thread will be used to add more information about the faction.
For now you can post anything you find useful including ideas for faction specific buildings, events, advisors etc MILITARY UNITS EXCLUDED - that is well researched and only later we will possibly need more details.
As I said on twcenter, I'm ready to help your team to collevt information about Circassia. I don't know what infos you have about this land, but I will write here what I know.
Circassia inmedieval was a hal Christain and half Pagan country. Christianity here came from Byzantine Empire and from Georgia. Circassia was much bigger then todayss Karachai-Cherkessian, Kabardino-Balkarian and Agyde republics are. It had conntacts with Byzantine Empire, Georgia, Khazaria, and Kiev.
for pictures and other info I will write on Circassian forums that they can help, but before they reply I will show you what I have.
I'm not allowed to post urls, so it isn't my fault that you can't see the picutres in this post.
This is an Circassian monaastry, that maybe for you is similar to greek, georgia, or armenian architecture, but it trust me, it is uniqe in his way. I have seen hundreds of churches in that stille, but this one is uniqe!(sorry for taftology)
http://www.travel-images.com/russia48.jpg
http://www.kchr.info/photogalereya/arhiz/8.jpg
http://www.travel-images.com/russia207.jpg
I don't know if this picture will help you, because this swords and daggers have a verry big oriental infuence, but maybe you can see the Circassian details and elements:
http://www.travel-images.com/russia434.jpg
A verry, verry useful site:
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/index.php?cat=23
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 12:07
wating...:wall:
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 12:57
[img=https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7413/1315vvgi5.th.jpg] (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1315vvgi5.jpg)
XIII-XV сс - Circassia
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 13:31
http://www.circassianworld.com/ - links & publication
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1234766&postcount=81 - map of Kingdom of Abkhazia IX-XI cc
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7413/1315vvgi5.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1315vvgi5.jpg)
Circassia (XIII-XV cc)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9463/siedlungsgebietgr1bi6.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=siedlungsgebietgr1bi6.jpg)
Circassia (in window - XV c)
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1215810&postcount=44
Circassian knight & ship
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1211349&postcount=6
Circassian knights.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 13:46
Circassian
https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8408/drawing2020circasisiansij3.th.jpg (https://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drawing2020circasisiansij3.jpg)
https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8448/drawing2020circassians1ll2.th.jpg (https://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drawing2020circassians1ll2.jpg)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3711/d7e5f0eae5f1fb20c3e5e9fke9.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d7e5f0eae5f1fb20c3e5e9fke9.jpg)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6550/c4db9.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c4db9.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8392/litho2020kabardian20primf4.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=litho2020kabardian20primf4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 13:51
http://forum.chronarda.ru/index.php?s=&showtopic=1376&view=findpost&p=36969
Circassian weapons.
http://forum.chronarda.ru/index.php?s=&showtopic=1376&view=findpost&p=36907
Circassians.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 13:59
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1212799&postcount=27
Circassian colours (any for example).
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 14:07
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9744/tamgaeb3.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tamgaeb3.jpg)
Circassian blazonry (for exemple)
Dear all,
I found your interesting idea about Circassia and would like to help with research and information.
I administrate adygaunion.org/gallery and have answers to many of your questions about Circassian weapons, armor and landmarks.
Also there are few more people who might be interested in helping out by giving information.
If you would like to go forward with this idea please contact me via e-mail or here int he forum.
Thank you.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 14:26
http://zihia.narod.ru/knives.htm & http://zihia.narod.ru/defens_armour.htm & http://zihia.narod.ru/throwing.htm & http://zihia.narod.ru/horsemen_tools.htm & http://zihia.narod.ru/weap.htm etc - Circassian weapons.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 15:07
http://www.circassianworld.com/Circassian_Names.html - Circassian Names (Mediaeval, Names of the Narts etc)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 15:24
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1378/circnj5.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=circnj5.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 15:37
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1236218&postcount=2 = maps
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 15:45
https://img359.imageshack.us/img359/8746/thekabardianslord1816orkc4.th.png (https://img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thekabardianslord1816orkc4.png)
Circassian Prince.
https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7599/sirwilliamallanacircassmp7.th.jpg (https://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sirwilliamallanacircassmp7.jpg)
Circassian Chief.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 15:55
https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7133/tcherkessia4.th.jpg (https://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tcherkessia4.jpg)
https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4842/1818yym9.th.jpg (https://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1818yym9.jpg)
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2363/circassianwarriorsjf1uk0.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=circassianwarriorsjf1uk0.jpg)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1686/expert40086yu1.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=expert40086yu1.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 16:11
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4392/painting97e0bx5.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=painting97e0bx5.jpg)
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5906/foto146fv9.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto146fv9.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 16:34
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8093/costume1lt7.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=costume1lt7.jpg)
Circassian (Adyghe) prince (pschi).
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8539/costume2hp5.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=costume2hp5.jpg)
Circassian (Adyghe) nobility (wark).
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 16:52
house
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3024/una2vz6.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=una2vz6.jpg)
https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2005/layoutdv6.th.jpg (https://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=layoutdv6.jpg)
https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/1433/kabardeykushkharz4.th.jpg (https://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kabardeykushkharz4.jpg)
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3346/architecture6hn4.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=architecture6hn4.jpg)
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9103/architecture7sj5.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=architecture7sj5.jpg)
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4985/architecture21mz4.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=architecture21mz4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 17:01
dolmen
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4742/geld0009vm8.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=geld0009vm8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 17:06
dolmenes:
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4194/ashe1024af7.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ashe1024af7.jpg)
https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3034/geld0042fg7.th.jpg (https://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=geld0042fg7.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 17:14
mausoleum
https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/875/img70na0.th.jpg (https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img70na0.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 17:49
Petihorcy (Circassian):
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/632/petyhorcy1fd2.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=petyhorcy1fd2.jpg)
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html - "Circassian Princes in Poland: The Five Princes" By Marcin Kruszynski.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 18:18
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1212799&postcount=27
Circassian colours (any for example).
wating...:wall:
+ anather coloures of Circessian Princes:
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7614/tam003qp2.th.jpg (https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tam003qp2.jpg)
https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5985/tam002nk0.th.jpg (https://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tam002nk0.jpg)
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8766/tam001ue4.th.jpg (https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tam001ue4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 18:23
Circassian galley:
https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8358/circassiannavypb9.th.gif (https://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=circassiannavypb9.gif)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 18:29
Circassian village:
https://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6771/adyges20descendus20des2cj8.th.jpg (https://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=adyges20descendus20des2cj8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 19:35
antician maps of Circassia:
https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1647/locus23xviiicmj4.th.png (https://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locus23xviiicmj4.png)
https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3532/t0094ti6.th.jpg (https://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t0094ti6.jpg)
https://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3504/san2px3.th.gif (https://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=san2px3.gif)
https://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8287/locus10gi2.th.jpg (https://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locus10gi2.jpg)
https://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9430/locus8hf2.th.jpg (https://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locus8hf2.jpg)
https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8172/4734ig4.th.jpg (https://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4734ig4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 19:46
anather ancient map of Circassia:
https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6243/2172jv8.th.jpg (https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2172jv8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 19:54
map of Circassia from 1840 y:
https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6264/circassia1840cv7.th.jpg (https://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=circassia1840cv7.jpg)
http://www.circassianworld.com/ - links & publication
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/showpost.php?p=1234766&postcount=81 - map of Kingdom of Abkhazia IX-XI cc
ty menja izvini no prechom Apkhazija k Cherkessiju?
ja kaneshna znaju chto Apkhazci i Cherkesci bratskie narodi, no Apkhazskaja carstva abjedenila Gruziju, i ana budet v sastav Gruzinksava Carstva.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 21:38
ty menja izvini no prechom Apkhazija k Cherkessiju?
ja kaneshna znaju chto Apkhazci i Cherkesci bratskie narodi, no Apkhazskaja carstva abjedenila Gruziju, i ana budet v sastav Gruzinksava Carstva.
В рассматриваемый период (IX-XI вв) - Абхазское царство в некоторые промежутки своей истории включало не только Абхазию и Грузию, но и Зихию (т. е. Черкессию или скорее ее часть - именно из-за этой части я включил ссылку в данный топик).
Абхазский вопрос обычно обсуждается очень эммоционально, но я согласен, что Абхазия, если рисовать карту средневекового Кавказа широкими мазками, окажется в одной единице с Грузией, а не с Черкессией.
PS Пользуясь случаем, я хотел бы еще раз поблагодарить тебя за то объявление, что ты разместил - Спасибо.
These are all Circassians:
https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i214/benfica89/cherkezebi1.jpg
https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i214/benfica89/cherkezebi2.jpg
I think you should add these with a mace as a special unit :)
В рассматриваемый период (IX-XI вв) - Абхазское царство в некоторые промежутки своей истории включало не только Абхазию и Грузию, но и Зихию (т. е. Черкессию или скорее ее часть - именно из-за этой части я включил ссылку в данный топик).
Абхазский вопрос обычно обсуждается очень эммоционально, но я согласен, что Абхазия, если рисовать карту средневекового Кавказа широкими мазками, окажется в одной единице с Грузией, а не с Черкессией.
PS Пользуясь случаем, я хотел бы еще раз поблагодарить тебя за то объявление, что ты разместил - Спасибо.
V to vremja mezdu nashix narodov ne bylo takie durnie konflikti, Gruzija i Cherkessija byli kak bratja, i krome etova, ja buduwi kavkazolog i ja tolka rad pamoch sasedam :D
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 23:08
V to vremja mezdu nashix narodov ne bylo takie durnie konflikti, Gruzija i Cherkessija byli kak bratja, i krome etova, ja buduwi kavkazolog i ja tolka rad pamoch sasedam :D
Спасибо на добром слове:-)
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 23:15
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8569/feodosiyavlasenkoxr3.th.jpg (https://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feodosiyavlasenkoxr3.jpg)
Kaffa
In the late 13th century, traders from Genoa arrived and purchased the town from the ruling Golden Horde. They established a flourishing trading settlement called Caffa (or Kaffa), which virtually monopolised trade in the Black Sea area and served as the chief port and administrative centre for the Genoese settlements around the Sea. It came to house one of Europe's biggest slave markets.
Under Genoa since 1266, it was governed by a Genoese consul, who since 1316 was in charge of all of all Genoese Black Sea colonies
It is believed that the devastating pandemic the Black Death entered Europe for the first time via Caffa in 1347. It is believed that the bubonic plague first entered Europe with the movements of the Golden Horde. After a protracted siege during which the Mongol army under Janibeg was reportedly withering from the disease, they catapulted the infected corpses over the city walls, infecting the inhabitants. The Genoese traders fled transferring the plague via their ships into the south of Europe, from whence it rapidly spread.
Because the Genoese started intervening in the internal affairs of the Crimean Khanate, a turkish vassal, the Ottoman commander Gedik Ahmet Pasha seized the city in 1475. Renamed Kefe, it became one of the most important Turkish ports on the Black Sea.
Gedonist
12-17-2006, 23:50
Circassians:
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9339/foto80qv9.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto80qv9.jpg)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5059/foto79ya0.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto79ya0.jpg)
https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4723/mancu4.th.jpg (https://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mancu4.jpg)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2481/foto91pz6.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto91pz6.jpg)
https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4867/foto78ve9.th.jpg (https://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto78ve9.jpg)
https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7831/foto64zh7.th.jpg (https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto64zh7.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4442/horsemanshipdl4.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=horsemanshipdl4.jpg)
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/230/adyghepu9.th.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=adyghepu9.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7929/tarih4oskafpolfq0.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tarih4oskafpolfq0.jpg)
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8446/cabardin20a20chevaleb5.th.jpg (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cabardin20a20chevaleb5.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3120/knitesbb4.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=knitesbb4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 00:07
https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7123/cherkesitm9.th.jpg (https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cherkesitm9.jpg)
https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3056/razzia20of20circass20gutc0.th.jpg (https://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=razzia20of20circass20gutc0.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5884/guerilla20warfare20in20wq2.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guerilla20warfare20in20wq2.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7899/cherkessp9.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cherkessp9.jpg)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2383/foto72hj4.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto72hj4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 00:25
Kabardian wark kafe (Circassian aristocratic dance):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8477855197541173767&q=circassian
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-721943487065291293&q=circassian
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 01:53
Prince Ali bin al Hussein
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7273/abazabmprn5.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abazabmprn5.jpg)
https://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9259/40th8.th.jpg (https://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=40th8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 02:00
Circassian legion of the French (Syria).
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8520/photo1ka7.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo1ka7.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7359/eskifotolar68bc4.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eskifotolar68bc4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 02:12
1600 y
https://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3968/xrussia1600seec3.th.jpg (https://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xrussia1600seec3.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 02:37
Circassian male shoes:
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8485/footwear1ir1.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=footwear1ir1.jpg)
Circassien male clothes:
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8319/d6ldbd5d3dbd5dad3d4c0d9vc0.th.jpg (https://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d6ldbd5d3dbd5dad3d4c0d9vc0.jpg)
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/665/malefashajs7.th.jpg (https://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=malefashajs7.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 02:46
Circassian saddle:
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2880/pictur8mm9.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pictur8mm9.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9486/pictur9sv5.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pictur9sv5.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 03:04
Circassian armour:
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3519/afa3pc9.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa3pc9.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3066/afa1yy8.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa1yy8.jpg)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2319/normalchachkanioc6.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normalchachkanioc6.jpg)
https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9331/gun1ks8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9165/weaponsoz4.th.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weaponsoz4.jpg)
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3489/c0d4ddc4c6c0cddd1sd4.th.jpg (https://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c0d4ddc4c6c0cddd1sd4.jpg)
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3590/afa6rl5.th.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa6rl5.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/84/afa5nw1.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa5nw1.jpg)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6282/afa2xd1.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa2xd1.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9347/gun5pf9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9485/afa4xu0.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa4xu0.jpg)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/gun5nf2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1240/afa7rd0.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afa7rd0.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 10:23
Circassian saber:
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5016/dgata1ve1.th.jpg (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dgata1ve1.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 10:41
Circassian cavalry sword (sashkhua):
https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9762/seshkhua3fy4.th.jpg (https://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua3fy4.jpg)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6548/seshkhua15lg7.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua15lg7.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6057/seshkhua11lr5.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua11lr5.jpg)
https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3778/seshkhua9vq9.th.jpg (https://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua9vq9.jpg)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9679/seshkhua2xa0.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua2xa0.jpg)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7424/seshkhua1xh8.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua1xh8.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4919/seshkhua18cr7.th.gif (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seshkhua18cr7.gif)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 10:56
Cicassian dagger:
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1875/k21ci1.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=k21ci1.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8610/kama33oa2.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kama33oa2.jpg)
https://img392.imageshack.us/img392/4138/kama13jy6.th.jpg (https://img392.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kama13jy6.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5813/mix4zp6.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix4zp6.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7417/tra07cn2.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra07cn2.jpg)
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7376/k2qz4.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=k2qz4.jpg)
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3786/kama3yh1.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kama3yh1.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8406/kama5gj8.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kama5gj8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 11:03
Circassian bow:
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1125/shabze1ed4.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shabze1ed4.jpg)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8306/shabze2eo2.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shabze2eo2.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 11:44
Circassian gun:
https://img344.imageshack.us/img344/787/foch5wn3.th.jpg (https://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch5wn3.jpg)
https://img450.imageshack.us/img450/6301/tra23yf8.th.jpg (https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra23yf8.jpg)
https://img450.imageshack.us/img450/7310/d4ced71rr2.th.jpg (https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d4ced71rr2.jpg)
https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7053/foch6mk1.th.jpg (https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch6mk1.jpg)
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5937/rifle1ah1.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rifle1ah1.jpg)
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6883/foch12jv7.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch12jv7.jpg)
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3655/foch7uj4.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch7uj4.jpg)
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1854/foch10gy8.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch10gy8.jpg)
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5121/c3dbcddbcbdaddrn8.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c3dbcddbcbdaddrn8.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5033/foch2su9.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch2su9.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7007/cherkes20pistolvo0.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cherkes20pistolvo0.jpg)
https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6585/foch3fx7.th.jpg (https://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch3fx7.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3749/foch9sx8.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch9sx8.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8999/gunsx7.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gunsx7.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3174/gunseq9.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gunseq9.jpg)
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8017/foch13bn2.th.jpg (https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch13bn2.jpg)
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2060/foch8vk4.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foch8vk4.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 11:53
Circassian mix:
https://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1824/oruzhnh2.th.jpg (https://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oruzhnh2.jpg)
https://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9905/mix10xw7.th.jpg (https://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix10xw7.jpg)
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5987/mix1pz5.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix1pz5.jpg)
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6973/mix9br5.th.jpg (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix9br5.jpg)
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8725/mix8mc9.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix8mc9.jpg)
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5723/mix7be3.th.jpg (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix7be3.jpg)
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8644/mix6qn9.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix6qn9.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 11:58
https://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3700/mixpa5.th.jpg (https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mixpa5.jpg)
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 12:23
Circassian lady:
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8868/adigewoman2fy6.th.jpg (https://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=adigewoman2fy6.jpg)
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4582/adigewoman1ii6.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=adigewoman1ii6.jpg)
https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6039/0000ab1dfj6.th.jpg (https://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000ab1dfj6.jpg)
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/685/d5dadbc4c6ddc1c7d4c0d9dms9.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d5dadbc4c6ddc1c7d4c0d9dms9.jpg)
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1199/image46aip6.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image46aip6.jpg)
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3674/pic11vx3.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic11vx3.jpg)
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7804/femalefasheelementset2.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=femalefasheelementset2.jpg)
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2734/footwear2hu8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8886/normalpictur20048ui6.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normalpictur20048ui6.jpg)
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7899/cherkessp9.th.jpg (https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?[URL=https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cherkessp9.jpg)
wow! I think this picture will be verry useful for modeling circassian units, I wish I could 3D modeling, I would do it myself.
one question, the circassians had chain armor under clothes? I havn't seen such clothing in Georgia or north-east Caucasia.
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam9_20060614_1621988879.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam6_20060614_1844178385.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam5_20060614_1213946030.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam3_20060614_1791861257.jpg
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 17:14
wow! I think this picture will be verry useful for modeling circassian units, I wish I could 3D modeling, I would do it myself.
one question, the circassians had chain armor under clothes? I havn't seen such clothing in Georgia or north-east Caucasia.
Все верно - панцирь (или кольчугу - в описаниях Черкесских доспехов это синонимы) одевали под особую боевую куртку (обычно красного цвета) - тэджэлей - ее изображения видны на многих запостенных мною гравюрах.
На некоторых миниатюрах панцирь изображен одетым прямо под черкеску, но для Кабардинской панцирной конницы (бывшей в рассматриваемое время эталоном) все же это нехаррактерно.
Кстати, на панцирь сверху могло крепиться стальное зерцало (я видел прямоугольной формы) или медные "мишени" - обычно шесть штук.
По огнестрелу - все запостенные мною ружья - нарезные кремневые - гладкоствольные практически не применялись (круглая пуля из гладкоствольного ружья не пробивала кабардинский панцирь, а подкольчужник амортизировал удар, хотя он оставался чувствительным).
Есть сведения о том что бронировались и кони (на них также надевали "трехкольчужный" панцирь), но к XVIII в это уже было нечасто, да и ранее видимо редко практиковалось.
Хотел бы обратить внимание - шашку носят не так как саблю, а вогнутой стороной вперед!
Собственно Черкесские сабли и палаши (последние встречаются реже) имеют специфическую особенность - их клинки заканчиваются штыком. К сожалению у меня нет качественного изображения хорошо сохранившихся экземпляров Черкесских сабель и палашей в электронном виде - я запостил то что есть.
На всякий случай:
http://www.adygaunion.us/Wiki/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0 %B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C - Военно-наезднический словарь - там много терминов, включая коммандные должности.
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 17:48
Все верно - панцирь (или кольчугу - в описаниях Черкесских доспехов это синонимы) одевали под особую боевую куртку (обычно красного цвета) - тэджэлей - ее изображения видны на многих запостенных мною гравюрах. На некоторых миниатюрах панцирь изображен одетым прямо под черкеску, но для Кабардинской панцирной конницы (бывшей в рассматриваемое время эталоном) все же это нехаррактерно. Кстати, на панцирь сверху могло крепиться стальное зерцало (я видел прямоугольной формы) или медные "мишени" - обычно шесть штук.
Впрочем вопрос о ношении "тэджэлей" поверх панциря или просто черкесски есстественно был на рассмотрении самого наездника - униформы ведь не было :-)
Хотя - маленькая деталь - обувь :-) - только Князья/Принцы (Пщы) могли носить красную обувь. За рыцарями/узденями (уорками) был закреплен желтый цвет обуви. Только Пщы имели право украшать свои стрелы белыми орлинными перьями, и только Пщы или уорк имели право пользоваться луком (возможно из-за этого он так использовался вместе с огнестрелом). Впрочем последнее надо еще раз уточнить...
Gedonist
12-18-2006, 18:25
PS To yakuza:
Последнее что хотелось бы отметить - качество войск.
Начну с позитива - у Черкесов была великолепная конница (многие источники называют ее просто "лучшей", особенно Кабардинскую панцирную). Наездники были практически универсальны - они могли не только вести конный бой, но и вести правильную осаду (с использованием траншей и щитов-мантилетов непробиваемых гладкоствольными пушками) и штурм (впрочем часто неудачный), они могли спешившись вести снайперскую дуэль, прекрассно владели искусством маскировки, форсировали реки с помощью надувных мехов и пр.
Черкесская пехота же была плохо дисциплинирована и эффективна только при обороне завалов, каких-либо пунктов (сел, которые чаще просто бросали до прихода противника, лесов, где, в случае если лес священный, бились насмерть и пр.) и "беспокойстве" отступающего противника. Обычно пехота состояла из ополчения той местности куда вторгся враг, так как при наступательных операциях за пределами свой родной местности ее не применяли (мне во всяком случае НИ РАЗУ не попадались сведения о применении Черкесской пехоты в походе за пределы родного края - речь всегда и только о коннице).
"Линейная пехота" у Черкесов же просто не существовала как род войск.
Пехота "демократических" стран Черкессии должна была быть в целом лучше чем "аристократических", где простолюдины часто не имели права даже держать оружие и лошадей, и, возможно, "демократы" были эффективнее.
Артиллерия у Черкесов была - имеются эпизодические свидетельства о ее использовании, но в основном это были фальконеты, их всегда было ничтожное количество и до конца существования Черкессии в ней так и не научились использовать пушки по-взрослому.
Что касается флота, то Черкесские пиратские флотилии были весьма известны на Черном море с античных времен и до рубежа XVIII/XIX вв, когда Черное море перешло под Русский контроль. Ставка в морском бою была на абордаж, так как опять же практически не применялась артиллерия, зато в этом ребята толк знали:-) Грабили часто и побережья, причем внушительными флотилиями.
Любопытно как в Вашем моде будет выглядеть эволюция таких своеобразных вооруженных сил, а также интерессно будет увидеть Черкесскую линейную пехоту:-) - все-таки это всего-лишь игра:-) в ней можно делать такие отступления...
jsno, nodumaju dlja sozdatelei igri luche esli eti posti budut na angliskom:D
no spasiba za informaciju, maji lektori kavkazologii takix by ne skazali:D
kstati kak vy cherkesku nazivaete? my ejo nazivaem choxa, i kak ja sliwal eta udiiskoe slova.
This is an armor of Uork yes?
http://circassian.narod.ru/images/circass/circas4.jpg
jsno, nodumaju dlja sozdatelei igri luche esli eti posti budut na angliskom:D
no spasiba za informaciju, maji lektori kavkazologii takix by ne skazali:D
kstati kak vy cherkesku nazivaete? my ejo nazivaem choxa, i kak ja sliwal eta udiiskoe slova.
This is an armor of Uork yes?
http://circassian.narod.ru/images/circass/circas4.jpg
I mean this:
http://circassian.narod.ru/images/circass/circas4.jpg
Gedonist
12-19-2006, 01:13
kstati kak vy cherkesku nazivaete? my ejo nazivaem choxa, i kak ja sliwal eta udiiskoe slova.
Мы называем черкеску "цей", а целиком костюм называем "Адыгэ фащэ".
Gedonist
12-19-2006, 01:24
I mean this:
http://circassian.narod.ru/images/circass/circas4.jpg
По-моему это стилизация - не очень похоже на аутентичную вещь...
Gedonist
12-19-2006, 02:03
Blazonry of Russian Princes from Circassian:
Chercassky:
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5549/5038vu3nl0.th.png (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5038vu3nl0.png)
Lopukhin:
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5482/lopukhinvq1.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lopukhinvq1.jpg)
cegorach
12-19-2006, 09:51
Excellent work !
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam9_20060614_1621988879.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam6_20060614_1844178385.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam5_20060614_1213946030.jpg
http://www.adygi.ru/files/gallery/adygi_ru_rus/Ressam3_20060614_1791861257.jpg
Are those pictures suitable fro the period between 1570 and 1700 ?
Please check the thread we used to gather information about Circassia for MTW1 edition of the mod
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60860
ESPECIALLY this post with the unit list I am using
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1069645&postcount=58
:2thumbsup:
Excellent work !
Are those pictures suitable fro the period between 1570 and 1700 ?
no :laugh4:
This is my personal opinion about how Cicassian units must look like
1. The elite warriors with a mace, like this one:
https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6282/bulavaqg8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
or the sitting guy:
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1686/expert40086yu1.th.jpg
I don't know, maybe these type of warriors have special name.
2.Werk Horsemen, kabardinian horseman with heavy armor and swords.
[/b]3.[/b]LCircassian Light Cavalry, or just Jigits, without armor, wearing only with the thik tartan wool thing (I mean the black bulletproof clothe on shoulders). whith bows, and swords.
This thing on his heat, as you seen in many pictures(works as a hood)
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/665/malefashajs7.jpg
4.Adyghe Nobility, with Armor, clothe on armor, sword and shield.
The left one:
http://forum.russianamerica.com/f/attachment.php?attachmentid=4538&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158684164
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5906/foto146fv9.th.jpg
5.Abreks, the same as nobility only with the thick tartan thing and a gun.
This units are only my imaginations, let's wait for gedonist, and see wath he says about hystorical acuracies of this units and it's names.
Yinal_the_Great
12-21-2006, 12:37
Okay first of all salute to Yakuza and Gedonist; they have done a great job!
Some of those images looks more like 1750 - 1850 but they are acceptable (with some modifications) for an earlier or much later period...
Anyway games period:
1570-1700
Weapons largely the same except Firearms.
Shashka is acceptable it was just introduced in late 1500s and was used until WW II...
The dagger (kindjal) goes back to Roman era.
Firearms...
well I guess in 1570 it was Matchlock muskets (firearms very rare in Caucasus during 1500s, nobility -Work- class maybe)
Maybe just include pistols?... But lets not forget Circassians fought like dragoons somewhat. North Caucasians used their horses body for cover (the horse actually were trained for this). They used Horse saddle or head to aim!
Pause at 2.15 to see a picture of this.
nothing political!!! just look at the frame at 02m.15s please
I can't find this anywhere else. :book:
---
Arrows more common (arguably even in 1650-1700)
Long Flintlock muskets (with painted Caucasian designs -detail-).
-----
Main changes are in clothes:
16TH CENTURY-17TH CENTURY:
Consider the last post of Yakuza though, it might be more correct.
Note that these are daily clothes, in battle I am sure they wear more armor.
Late game: (1670-1700)
This image itself is probably based on 1780-1800.
But some modifications it can be fit to late game period.
(I will go to details later)
-----------------------------
To Cegorach
At this point (my movie project is set in "1860") my knowledge of Pre 1800 Circassian history is getting rusty, so probably Yakuza and Gedonist will be more helpful for historical research on Circassia.
As far as I understand there are some Georgian guys who are helping you for Georgian faction...
Anything I can still help with?... I can voice act if you are going to put native voices in the game.
So in short... for historical research... I feel abit useless. ~:mecry:
----------------------------------------------------
I am Inal the Great btw (Lost my account) :no: :wall:
Yinal_the_Great
12-21-2006, 12:42
WITH URL S !
Okay first of all salute to Yakuza and Gedonist; they have done a great job!
Some of those images looks more like 1750 - 1850 but they are acceptable (with some modifications) for an earlier or much later period...
Anyway games period:
1570-1700
Weapons largely the same except Firearms.
Shashka is acceptable it was just introduced in late 1500s and was used until WW II...
The dagger (kindjal) goes back to Roman era.
Firearms...
well I guess in 1570 it was Matchlock muskets (firearms very rare in Caucasus during 1500s, nobility -Work- class maybe)
Maybe just include pistols?... But lets not forget Circassians fought like dragoons somewhat. North Caucasians used their horses body for cover (the horse actually were trained for this). They used Horse saddle or head to aim!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05-ixJ8t3s
Pause at 2.15 to see a picture of this.
nothing political!!! just look at the frame at 02m.15s please
I can't find this anywhere else. :book:
---
Arrows more common (arguably even in 1650-1700)
Long Flintlock muskets (with painted Caucasian designs -detail-).
-----
Main changes are in clothes:
16TH CENTURY-17TH CENTURY:
http://www.altair.co.uk/0021.jpg
Consider the last post of Yakuza though, it might be more correct.
Note that these are daily clothes, in battle I am sure they wear more armor.
Late game: (1670-1700)
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7808/untitled1zj.jpg
This image itself is probably based on 1780-1800.
But some modifications it can be fit to late game period.
(I will go to details later)
-----------------------------
To Cegorach
At this point (my movie project is set in "1860") my knowledge of Pre 1800 Circassian history is getting rusty, so probably Yakuza and Gedonist will be more helpful for historical research on Circassia.
As far as I understand there are some Georgian guys who are helping you for Georgian faction...
Anything I can still help with?... I can voice act if you are going to put native voices in the game.
So in short... for historical research... I feel abit useless. ~:mecry:
----------------------------------------------------
I am Inal the Great btw (Lost my account) :no: :wall:
Gegorach,
Please see your Private Messages.
cegorach
12-22-2006, 10:19
You have the answer in your inbox.
I refered to this unit roster - can't be too large for rather minor faction Circassia will be in the game, but 1-2 more justified proposals for units can be added.:2thumbsup:
ESPECIALLY this post with the unit list I am using
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1069645&postcount=58
[/QUOTE]
cegorach
12-22-2006, 10:57
I will show some images from the earlier edition of the mod - it is slightly off-topic so I will hide it as a spoiler
campaign map from the last campaign where I could squeeze the Circassians
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/late.jpg
Circassian cavalry - with the earlier banner, now it is corrected
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/CIRCASSIANS1.jpg
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/CIRCASSIANS2.jpg
corrected banner + the Tiley champion
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/tiley.jpg
a known Circassian leader - unfortunatelly couldn't be added as the leader of the faction (too early campaign)
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/Inal.jpg
Peasant militia description
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/CZERK.jpg
Circassians meet.... Barbary Coast raiders - everything is possible in MP or custom mode ;)
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/internetdates.jpg
Georgian roster for those interested in the second Caucasus faction
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/nowagruzja.jpg
+new campaign map fro the incoming PMTW 2.0 for MTW1 VI
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/newmap3.jpg
I will show some images from the earlier edition of the mod - it is slightly off-topic so I will hide it as a spoiler
Dear cegorach.
1) Regular cavalry circassian - "Shuudze" (the mounted army
2) More Best cavalry subdivision - "Worq Shuudze" (the chivalrous mounted army). The Word "Abrek" meant in that timeses highwayman-alone, exorcised from its folk because of murder etc.
3) Do Not know the word "Tiley", but I have named young warrior by circassian word "Tume". So circassians named the illegal princely sons, who their own feat on field of the battle gained itself popularity and became the enjoying full rights prince. Or such warrior-alone possible to do themselves circassian prince
4) I have added else class of the princely bodyguards "Pshikey" (the princely railing). It consisted of usual peasants or freed servants, which were produced in this class for military services
5) Instead of "Lhxwqwel Zewako" offer the word "Zewako" (the warrior)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 15:42
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5500/normald7e5f0eae5f1f1eaepr8.th.jpg (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normald7e5f0eae5f1f1eaepr8.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 15:51
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8692/normal012gg1.th.jpg (https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal012gg1.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5505/normal034bd2.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal034bd2.jpg)
https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9047/normal009am0.th.jpg (https://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal009am0.jpg)
https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/43/normal005jq5.th.jpg (https://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal005jq5.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 19:33
Circassian Prince (the Kabardian Prince, his name - Kushikupsh) :
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9209/kushikupshkz7.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kushikupshkz7.jpg)
Circassians:
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7088/502by7.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=502by7.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 19:48
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1049/318vl9.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=318vl9.jpg)
https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2485/317pk8.th.jpg (https://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=317pk8.jpg)
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4258/316um8.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=316um8.jpg)
https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6299/505xl8.th.jpg (https://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=505xl8.jpg)
https://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1941/501ua3.th.jpg (https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=501ua3.jpg)
https://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1007/703sp7.th.jpg (https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=703sp7.jpg)
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1245/210ug3.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=210ug3.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 19:55
https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1184/417tx8.th.jpg (https://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=417tx8.jpg)
https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6990/410ta6.th.jpg (https://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=410ta6.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 20:20
sabers & sword:
https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7517/214fs6.th.jpg (https://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=214fs6.jpg)
https://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5691/612gd5.th.jpg (https://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=612gd5.jpg)
Гедонист, а какой период вообще предпологается? 1500-1700 гг.?
Тогда какая территория охвата игры и о каких событиях (войнах) будет идти речь в игре?
Вот авторы описывавшие Кавказ (и черкесов) того времени:
1) Матвей Меховский (1457-1524) - ректор Краковского университета
2) Сигизмунд Герберштейн (1486-1566) - австрийский дипломат
3) Андре Теве (1502-1590) - французский космограф
4) Мартин Броневский (16 в.) - польский дипломат
5) Лазарь Соранцо (16-17 вв.) - венецианский патриций
6) Арканджело Ламберти (1630-1650) - католический миссионер
7) Эмиддио Дортелли д'Асколи (1622-1633) - префект Каффы
8) Джовани да Лукка (17 в.) - католический монах (кстати именно он впервые упомянул адыгское оружие "шашка"). Поэтому в игру ее можно включать 100%-но.
9) Адам Ореалий (Адам Эльшлегер) (1599-1671) - секретарь голштинского посольства
10) Ян Стрейс (17 в.) - голландский путешественник
11) Николас Витсен (1641-1717) - голандский посол
12) Жан Баптист Тавернье (1605-1689) - французский путешественник
13) Жан Шарден (1643-1713) - французский путешественник
з.ы. Надеюсь кто-нибудь переведет мой пост на английский )
Если-что у меня есть выдержки из всех этих источников касательно быта, территории, жилища, одежды и т.п. черкесов.
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 20:27
Circassian cavalry sword (sashkhua):
https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5628/211ki5.th.jpg (https://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=211ki5.jpg)
https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2002/405vj1.th.jpg (https://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=405vj1.jpg)
https://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3958/609nf6.th.jpg (https://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=609nf6.jpg)
https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/412/212ug5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9513/406cy0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 20:51
Мое почтение Савой! Я сейчас брошу тебе в личку на ХЭКУ. ОК?
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 21:13
Kabardien (East Circassian) blazonry:
https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2280/301cz1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/383/412rw4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 21:22
https://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2530/209rq8.th.jpg (https://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=209rq8.jpg)
https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/729/604jt6.th.jpg (https://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=604jt6.jpg)
https://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7308/215vt6.th.jpg (https://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=215vt6.jpg)
https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4903/616vz7.th.jpg (https://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=616vz7.jpg)
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/1839/705vs1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 21:37
dagger
https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2609/704qs9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7606/normal006lc4.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal006lc4.jpg)
https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8895/normal007zz6.th.jpg (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=normal007zz6.jpg)
https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6260/602qc6.th.jpg (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=602qc6.jpg)
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8422/611vu5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img347.imageshack.us/img347/5030/213jg4.th.jpg (https://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=213jg4.jpg)
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2474/408da2.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=408da2.jpg)
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 21:50
To Cegorach
Deer Cegorash<
Regret with my bad English.
Your historical maps in the game - unobserved East Circassia - Kabardey - most very strong Circassian kingdom & important part of Circassia (down to Casspien sea).
Circassia be larger in XV-XVIII сс.
Thank you.
Gedonist
12-23-2006, 22:02
To Yinal_the_Great
Salut congener!
Yinal_the_Great
12-24-2006, 01:42
To Cegorach
Deer Cegorash<
Regret with my bad English.
Your historical maps in the game - unobserved East Circassia - Kabardey - most very strong Circassian kingdom & important part of Circassia (down to Casspien sea).
Circassia be larger in XV-XVIII сс.
Thank you.
I agree, Circassia should stretch all the way to the Caspian Sea (of course you can argue Dagistans are not Circassians, but at least all the way to Dagistan. The One in the maps looks even smaller than "186" (last four years of Circassia)
But if its too much trouble it is cool Cegorach. :2thumbsup:
Excellent work !
Are those pictures suitable fro the period between 1570 and 1700 ?
Please check the thread we used to gather information about Circassia for MTW1 edition of the mod
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60860
ESPECIALLY this post with the unit list I am using
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1069645&postcount=58
:2thumbsup:
I will look into the LIST of warriors, maybe we need to make some corrections to the TITLES and what they represent.
Circassian does spread East all the way untill Dagestan , especially in time 1570-1700 when it was a rise of Circassian power in Caucasus region.
Cegorach Can you read russian ? if you can, there is a some historical info we can forward about 1570-1700 time frame.
This is the correct Circassian Flag, that was based on Hatti sign of SUN. Created as a sign of unity os all Circassian Tribes.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_Adyga_Flag_correct.jpg
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Hatti%20Symbol.JPG
Notice the Arrows on the flag, these are Circassian arrows, a detail that is not known to many people. the TIP is made not to stick in the body like regular arrow, but to drain more blood when hits the target. You can find this tip in early pictures of Circassians like this one
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Drawing%20Circassian.JPG
Circassian warriors used to ware a metal ring on the big finger of right hand, when shooting the arrow , Circassians did not use Europian stile of holding the string with 2 fingers, Circassians used the BIG finger which has more power when pulling the string back, and therefore arrow would shoot further.
There is a lot of details about Circassian Warriors, as i mentioned in Private message there is a professor that i have contact with, who can gie us some very unique details about Circassian warfare, he has been studiing it for over 15 years.
Some special strikes with Shashka, one of the most lethal strikes on battlefield was also presented in a short video (I lost that CD, but will try to find it soon)
Here is a Cartoon about Famous Circassian warrior and legend Hero Sousruko. Might help you to see the landscape and some details
www.adygaunion.us/music/Movies/Sosruko.WMV
By the way Cegorach, are you planning to put any tribe names for Circassians ? or you will have them as One ? As you know geograpically there were several Circassian tribes, or to say small kingdoms with counts, and it might put more interest in the game.
Yinal_the_Great
12-25-2006, 12:29
Hello WCB
I agree with you on the flag issue. :yes:
----------------------
About adding different tribes...
Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:
Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).
I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...
But imagine doing whole Europe like this! :dizzy2: Not possible in Total War games.
As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.
If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.
Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.
Thanks.
I do not think that this flag approaches(suits) to(towards) declared length of time of this play(game)
There is article in russian language about gun complex circassian 14-17 ages. From it you will hear that circassians were a lawmaker of the mode in weapon and defensive element for Europe, Turcii, Caucasus and mamluks of Egypt.
In 1903 N. Veselovskiy beside cossack village Ust-Labinskaya has found the remainder a ring-plate panoply. This type panoply is characterized the most high defensive characteristic since in wickerwork were included metallic, steel plates. Dignity of the mail and armor successfully matched In ring-plate panoply i.e. this was and the most strong, and the most light panoply. M.V. Gorelik, the largest russian connoisseur of the weapon, dated the discovery Veselovskogo XIV-XV century. The Burial mound excavated Veselovskim, is defined as circassian, on that indicate: 1) anthropological type; 2) weapon, stock and funeral rite. The Important certificate that that for the first time ring-plate panoply came up for circassian ambience, is that fact that his(its) begin to carry mamluks in Egypt, as from period of the rule of the first circassian sultan az-Zahir Barkuk (1382-1399
... Three types panoply were the most widely-used in that time: mail cape, plate panoply and armor. More Wide-spread was shown idle time cape raincoat,... some of them were not simply long, but were dragged on the ground, when rider dismounted. Later part mail cape has a collars. Practically all ed panoply the known on museum and quotient collection, pertain to epoch mamlukian circassian state (1382-1517) and on their study are based findings european specialist on histories of the weapon and panoply. Same we can speak on all other element cavalry, chivalrous arms - known his(its) copies, as a rule, are connected with circassian mamluks XV centuries. The Circassian longing to relieve the arms not reducing herewith defensive function, is particularly seen send "misyurka
The Continuation follows......
(Excuse me for my bad english)
mamluk-circasian sultan
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_%C0%D8%D0%C0%D4_%C8%CD%C0%CB_.jpg
Zakhir Barkuk
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_%C7%C0%D5%C8%D0_%C1%C0%D0%CA%D3%CA.JPG
I think here is approaching photography given length of time
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/normal_Painting16-pshi.jpg
Hello WCB
I agree with you on the flag issue. :yes:
----------------------
About adding different tribes...
Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:
Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).
I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...
But imagine doing whole Europe like this! :dizzy2: Not possible in Total War games.
As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.
If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.
Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.
Thanks.
I understand, was just wondering.
Now when you say Circassia, I hope you include Kabarda in it, because its an absolute biggest part of Circassia, eastern part.
I agree to include Circassia as one country with borders according to maps from Black see to Dagestan, from Tartar to Georgia.
Savoy,
Its understandable that the flag as it is presented in my post was not exact same in 1570, but it seems to make more sence to have that flag since it represents Circassians worldwide.
When players choose to play as Circassians, they will have Green flag with 12 stars and 3 golden arrows, and whenever they see this flag in real life, they will know what it means.
This flag is the only flag of UNITED Circassia, and thats what it represents. I hope makers of the game choose it as comon flag for Circassians.
A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.
First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.
Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.
As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.
Infantery.
Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.
Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.
Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.
Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.
Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.
Cavalry Units.
Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.
Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.
Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).
NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.
All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.
As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.
Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!
As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.
Gedonist
12-29-2006, 10:49
http://i11.tinypic.com/35164qg.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/2psj97d.jpg
http://i16.tinypic.com/4hsr535.jpg
Yinal_the_Great
12-30-2006, 14:56
A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.
First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.
Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.
As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.
Infantery.
Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.
Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.
Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.
Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.
Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.
Cavalry Units.
Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.
Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.
Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).
NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.
All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.
As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.
Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!
As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.
Very good! :2thumbsup:
Unit Roster looks alot more detailed and more accurate than mine. :bow:
I thought alot about Dzhigit I guess it fits Dagistanis more than Circassians.
What about titles like "Shu (Shoo) Pashe" is there are non Turkified-Russofied names for some of the others I posted? If you can find them, please dont forget to change them also, (if you can) Cegorach wants native names as much as possible.
My Circassian is too basic for some of those! :shame:
Yinal_the_Great
12-30-2006, 15:12
WCB I would like to ask one thing if I may... :beam:
Forgive my poor Circassian but how about this:
Cavalry : Showay or Shoo -Horsemen- (Instead of Shoodze -Horsemen Army-) -Spelling :oops: *
Infantry: Zevako -Warrior-
Thanks
Ilkhanate
01-06-2007, 04:36
the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.
( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )
Very good! :2thumbsup:
Unit Roster looks alot more detailed and more accurate than mine. :bow:
I thought alot about Dzhigit I guess it fits Dagistanis more than Circassians.
What about titles like "Shu (Shoo) Pashe" is there are non Turkified-Russofied names for some of the others I posted? If you can find them, please dont forget to change them also, (if you can) Cegorach wants native names as much as possible.
My Circassian is too basic for some of those! :shame:
I insist on useing word WARK instead of word Pashe.
Because WARK - is circassian word meaning royal, cheaf.
Cavalery can be called SHUDZE or SHYDZE - shu-horse dze-army
We have native names for ALL of the units, because Circassians had all of them in the army and named them useing their language. So whatever you need translated please let me know, we will change names to Circassians native names.
Now about the MAP and how Circassia should look in the game. Here is a most acurate map of Circassia 1570-1700 including all the provinces and neighbours that existed at that time.
We should use this map for the MOD and develop battles accordingly.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/3map1550_1700.png
Lets see what else we need to move forward with the mod ?
The top message was suppose to have a QUOTE .....can someone fix it please ?
Done - Cegorach
Yinal_the_Great
01-08-2007, 03:04
Cegorach:
Hmm... I want to try to make a list of all the things that I couldn't translate very well. Mostly titles for now: I don't know if you want to get in to more detail with Circassian military units (I know its only a minor faction) but WCB really made a perfect list.
Most things with my names I thought was allright (did my best anyway), but a few really bug me. I will think about all of them and post them tomorrow or next couple days.
cegorach
01-09-2007, 16:50
Ok. Time for some questions I hope that you and Savoy will be able to help answering them.
Units - in general I need the names for those in CIRCASSIAN - I want to avoid English if possible.
So the names should be completelly Circassian - every single word in unit's name should be in this language.
If possible use historical names, if not please translate the existing ones.
Finally if POSSIBLE we will need to reconstruct the images of each unit - weaponry, uniforms - everything.
One good image for one unit - 3D models will be based on this image here in PMTW2 and in Ogniem i Mieczem - I cooperate with them and told Alias from their team that this thread will be used to describe circassian military for BOTH mods.
Infantery.
Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.
OK. So poorly armed peasants. How were they used ?
Only in defence of local communities, as the last resort or maybe more often and even in larger battles too ?
Finally this sword and shield how did those look like ? Some sort of unique circassian style or rather diverse collection of weaponry - whatever a peasant could get ?
Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.
What weaponry did they use ? Were they from Persia or the Ottoman empire ?
Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.
Tactics ? I mean - marksmen, guerilla fighters or something more used in open battles ?
Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.
Weapons ?
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.
Interesting name. Why they were called this way - maybe they lived on the coastline and were in fact some sort of pirates like Cossacks ?
Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.
Again weaponry ?
Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.
Was this tejeley similar to this kind of Russian armour ?
https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/russian%20roster/rosyjskalekka.jpg
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.
Tactics. I mean how did they use the missile weapons - to soften the enemy before a charge, in defence or was that used even less often ?
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.
In forests ? For what reason, I mean did they use guerill tactics, some sort of missile unit or perhaps for ambushing the enemy ?
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.
Tactics. Were they used as bodyguards for the commanders, elite shock cavalry to smash the enemy when he was 'ready' for the knock-out ?
Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.
That is a reasonable request.
Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
True, though not always 'Circassian' units were made of Circassians - the fashion to have crtain units called in certain way in the Commonwealth meant there were 'Cossack', 'Tatar', 'Hungarian', 'Wallachian' and 'German' units sometimes without a single non-Pole in those.
I think that only Scottish infantry in Poland was always formed from local Scots.
As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.
So only the infantry fought in open battles or was the infantry used to attack the enemy lured to pursue the cavalry ?
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes ?
Also were there any tactics in sieges, were the Circassians besieging anyone at that time ?
In the game I need to determine several things for example how will the Circassians attacking enemy strongholds - any information about siege engines - cannons, mines etc ?
In general we will need to create working roster where we need to know how armed, how used and how numerous are certain units.
It is a matter how the Circassian army will work on the battlefield.
I have shown several rosters and in general I already know for what purpose each units is going to be used.
Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!
So they were mostly Orthodox ? I wonder was that autonomic, local church or a part of larger organisation under the guidiance of Constantinopole patriarch, or maybe someone else ?
I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative ?
Regards Cegorach
cegorach
01-09-2007, 17:00
WCB
Cegorach Can you read russian ? if you can, there is a some historical info we can forward about 1570-1700 time frame.
Badly. I can try to read that, but English is the language which makes my work easier.
Also remember that by posting in English you make this thread almost a circassian database - I already told some guys they can learn much from this thread.:2thumbsup:
It is also possible I will write a text about Circassian military to a Polish history magazine - and if it will be good enough they will print it.
I am not a historian, but I couldn't find anything about circassian army anywhere so this could be the source to be exploited and used to write something.:yes:
I am still not sure if I will do so, I have considerable knwledge about the period, but I never wrote anything to any newspaper.:inquisitive:
Welcome back Cegorach,
Let us work on a list with answers for you. Few days needed.
About the newspaper and article, it would be great, after all Poland and Circassia use to be allies in some battles and wars. There is always a first time for everything :laugh4:
Units - in general I need the names for those in CIRCASSIAN - I want to avoid English if possible.
So the names should be completelly Circassian - every single word in unit's name should be in this language.
I agree, we will try to get all names to be Circassian.
Finally if POSSIBLE we will need to reconstruct the images of each unit - weaponry, uniforms - everything.
I'm no designer, but we will supply all the pictures that we can, so you guys can create a 3D image fo Circassian warrior. Then when its ready we can take a look and make corrections.
3D models will be based on this image here in PMTW2 and in Ogniem i Mieczem - I cooperate with them and told Alias from their team that this thread will be used to describe circassian military for BOTH mods.
Thats good, Savoy and me started a thread in OiM about Circassia as well, but good thing is taht they read russian, so more info is availible. Hopefully cooperation with them will help to create most acurate MOD.
cegorach
01-10-2007, 09:55
I made 3-4 unit rosters for OiM and I am present at their forum, though it will be good for you cause to put as much well written descriptions in English - more readers after all.:book:
Hello all,
I am honored to be present at this forum. Special thanks to cegorach who came up with an idea of introducing Circassia as a faction in this great game - it is most the powerfull way of spreading the knowledge about Circassia and Circassians around the globe - and to WCB who invited me to this forum.
I compiled the list of Circassian untis listed above, made it in a hurry, so I'm sorry it isnt as informative as I would like it to be. Some changes and additions to it should be done. I'll try to give answers to all your questions. If I lack knowledge about a particular question i'll contact more knowledgeable people to provide mst accurate information.
Before I proceed any further I want to ask my own question - since modern Circassian uses Cyrilic alphabet, do you want names of units to be in Cyrillic letters or you want us to provide Latin transliteration of Circassian names of units and characters?
I'll try to answer some questions later on today. As for graphic depictions of Circassian weaponry and mail, I think Gedonist's done an excellent job providing picters of all of it. See if we can add more.
cegorach
01-10-2007, 12:02
[QUOTE]Hello all,
Welcome !
I compiled the list of Circassian untis listed above, made it in a hurry, so I'm sorry it isnt as informative as I would like it to be. Some changes and additions to it should be done. I'll try to give answers to all your questions. If I lack knowledge about a particular question i'll contact more knowledgeable people to provide mst accurate information.
Very well.
Before I proceed any further I want to ask my own question - since modern Circassian uses Cyrilic alphabet, do you want names of units to be in Cyrillic letters or you want us to provide Latin transliteration of Circassian names of units and characters?
Latin alphabet - gamers should be able to read the names, even if they will have problems in remembering those.
I'll try to answer some questions later on today. As for graphic depictions of Circassian weaponry and mail, I think Gedonist's done an excellent job providing picters of all of it. See if we can add more.
I agree he did an excellent job, however what I mean is to have one-two images for each unit - this way we will have all the information in one place - no need to search for everything or to ask too many questions.
See here - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72382 - in general one image is used to describe one unit.
I have considerable knowledge about almost every single army from the list and only Circassia, India, Georgia and Persia will need more notes describing every unit to some degree (game-wise).
Finally I want to add that in the last release of the MTW1 edition (PMTW 2.0) I want to revise Circassian roster according to the information you all will post HERE.
Especially I need the answer for one question
- which units should appear as more important/interesting - please pick 5 ot 6 - the rest might not appear due to lack of space ( in MTW1 edition - in MTW2 it should be easier - more space).
Please remember, ALL units are armed with daggers in addition to their standart weapons.
Circassian for infantery is лъэсыдзэ (tlesidze, tles - walking, dze - army)
Lhukotl (it means "commoner") Infantery therefore would be Lhukotl Tlesidze.
These were used to defend towns and villages, in large battle they were used as "cannon fodder". Possessing a weapon was a must for every Circassian, except for slaves (pshitl) and women. There was a special set of child weapons - smaller copies of real weapons. So even a commoner had to have som sort of weapons, mostly swords made at a local smithy and a round wooden shield. Those commoners that abandoned their peasanthood for search of glory and became wandering knights (see lhukosho raiders) had better weapons since their lives depended on it.
Repatriated Mamelukes (Qakozha Mamyloukher) - Circassians became a part of Middle Eastern Mameluke system as early as X cent. A.D. Since some of them managed to become sultans of Egypt during the Bahri period (1250-1389) they kept bringing in even more of their countrymen into the Mameluke ranks, "buying" them in batches as many as 5000-6000 men from Genoese and Venetian merchants which controlled the entire Black Sea trade until 1475. By 1389 they outnumbered Turkic Mamelukes and seized power in Egypt and Syria until 1517 when Egypt was conquered by Ottoman Turks. XV century authors descibe Circassians having absolute power in Egyptian sultanate, even call it "Circassian State on the banks of the Nile". Of course, the majority of the population being Arabic, hated self-centered Circassian rule and greeted Ottomans as liberators.
After the fall of Circassian Burji (Tower, since Circassian headquarters was situated in a tower of the Cairo citadel) dynasty and execution of the last Circassian sultan Tuman-bay II, some Circassian Mamelukes stayed in Egypt, and by mid-1600's Egypt was again semi-sovereign from Ottoman rule, although now there were all sorts of Mamelukes, Albanian, Georgian, Abazian, Greek, Circassian and even Slavic. Others repatriated to Circassia from Egypt and conteporary authors (Evliya Chelebi, a Turk whose mother was Circassian or Abaza) describe many settlements of repatriated Mamelukes in Circassia up until 1660's. They brought back the "fourussiya" - special Mameluke physical training system.
Repatriated Mamelukes should be armed with Circassian sabres, metal shileds and spears (Circassian - bzhi or pchi, depending on dialect). They also carry small hadcuffs for capturing prisoners. Effecrive against cavalry.
Quote:
Abadzekh Shooters (Abazekhe Shabzawoher) - Circassia was divided in 12 larger provinces and 6 more smaller ones, which later merged with their larger neighbors. Each province spoke their own dialect of Circassian langauge. Abadzekhia was one of them. Circassians have a saying - "Shapsugh (see below) is a cutter, Abadzekh is a marksman". So Abadzekh Shooters are marksmen. One of their tactics was climbing trees in a dense forest and shoot at enemy troops from there. Several barricades in a row in the woods was their favorite tactics, by shooting at enemy and retreating from one barricade to another they'd exhuast the enemy. Also good at defending settlements since they shoot far with their bows (shabza), crossbows (sagyndak) and guns (foch or shkonch)
Shapsugh Infantery (Shapsugh Tlesidze)- Shapsughia is yet another province of Circassia. There was Greater and Lesser Shapsugia, Lesser being at the Black Sea coast from modern Tuapse (by the way it is an authentic Circassian name) to Novorossiisk and the Greater one was in the Transkuban region. Weapons were similar to those of Mamelukes. They were good at hand-to-hand combat so we can assume them being basic Circassian infantery unit with good stamina. "Shapsugh don't like to burn much gunpowder" - is another saying about them.
More answers tomorrow:yes:
Cegorach:
What weaponry did they use ? Were they from Persia or the Ottoman empire? More exactly that this was returned from Egypt and Syrias warriors or their children. Could return and from Turkey.
Interesting name. Why they were called this way - maybe they lived on the coastline and were in fact some sort of pirates like Cossacks? They more moved on river riverbed. Particularly they were strong in river coast with bulrush (Kuban and Azov). This was a reconnaissance troops for completion sabotage. Beautifully sail.
Was this tejeley similar to this kind of Russian armour? This looked like mongolo-tatarian armour from skin .. she beside they were identified "tegeley" (do not know who beside who has adopted name)
Tactics. Were they used as bodyguards for the commanders, elite shock cavalry to smash the enemy when he was 'ready' for the knock-out? The Commander (Dzepsh) protected (fought near by him) his(its) own werq (werk) and special troops "pshichey" ("bodyguards of the prince").
So only the infantry fought in open battles or was the infantry used to attack the enemy lured to pursue the cavalry ?
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes?
As militias was used special class circassian - "beygol", which consisted of former not free peasants
I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative? Formally circassians of that time were considered christians, gradually came the moslem religion (the influence Crimean khanate). The Attitude to both religion beside circassian was neutral, they saved its faith.
Yinal_the_Great
01-11-2007, 02:11
Cegorach these new friends are way behind me... ~:eek: I am scared! :laugh4:
I can still answer a few of your question should I continue with my contributions?
- if there is a mistake there is at least someone to correct.
WCB I will PM you - Thanks! :beam:
Yinal_the_Great
01-11-2007, 03:19
A-)
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes ?
B-)
Also were there any tactics in sieges, were the Circassians besieging anyone at that time ?
In the game I need to determine several things for example how will the Circassians attacking enemy strongholds - any information about siege engines - cannons, mines etc ?
C-)
So they were mostly Orthodox ? I wonder was that autonomic, local church or a part of larger organisation under the guidiance of Constantinopole patriarch, or maybe someone else ?
I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative ?
Regards Cegorach
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-) Circassian never had that much manpower so canon fodder would be out of question (not saying it never happened!). Regular Circassian Infantry could cause some serious trouble when fighting in forests or mountains. Good for ambushes! :yes:
Still they should have the same fears the other infantry have:
Artilery, A heavy horsecharge in open planes.
B-)Hmm... siege equipment comes mostly from a powerful ally like Russia (when fighting vs Tatars or Ottomans) or Ottomans (vs Russians, Cossacks)
of course also captured guns...
Well I know that the Circassians at times made there own cannons (rarely) but these must have been low quality and very small (light).
Regular stuff: Climbing walls, opening doors from inside, seaking at night very close and suddenly attacking, other explosive equipment (to blow up fort gates for example).
C-) Just want to add: generally, religion (Historically) for Circassians did not play a very important role, unlike some other nations. And I think Evliya Chlebi (a famous Turkish explorer) did mention this when he was visiting Circassia.
He said something along these lines:
- ''They are not devoted Muslims but if you call them infidels they get upset and angry''
Just some stuff I thought no one answered yet.
Please feel free to correct me if I have mistake Adigas. :beam:
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". (Psi - water, kha - dog, dze - army). I guess my friend Savoy's already answered your questions. I can add that their namee is said to be derived from their practice of using inflated wineskins (fend or shuent) to cross rivers at unexpected places (they didnt need a ford) and thus sneak up on enemy. Ambush and reconaissance is their specialty.
Ubykh Infantery - Ubykhia is yet another Black Sea coastal prvince of Circassia at the border of Abkhazia. Ubykh and Kabardian (another region, see below) leaders had absolute power over their troops in battles and unlike other Circassian tribes could punish even execute a soldier for lack of discipline or routing from battlefield. Living in mountaneous area, cavalry wasnt Ubykhs relied on in their warfare. On contrary, they managed to develop a strong infantery unit, called wunaru, which means "building demolishers". These were truly tireless, mountains taught them to walk far in any terrain, run real fast. Their weapons were usual daggers, sashkho's (Circassian sabres) and guns, since Turkish presence in the Black Sea region made it easy to acquire gunpowder. I'll try ro provide pictures to illustrate each type of unit.
2) Cavalry in Circassian is shuudze, shu - horseman, dze - army.
Lhukosho Raiders - Lhukosho means peasant rider. Tejeley or tenjeley was a short jacket made of thick leather that protected from missile fire but could really help in a had-to-hand sword fight.
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - As I've already said, some Circassians (Ubykh, shapsygh, abadzekh) lived in the mountains. They had similar customs and closer related dialects. Since 1790's they also had a revolution and got rid of their nobles (wark) and lived under a "democratic" rule, electing their own leaders and judges. Other Circassians (Kabardian, Belseney, Temirgoy, Bjedough, Hatoukway and others) lived in plains. They had strictly aristocratic type of government, on top of which were the pshi (princes), the royal family, all of them being descendants of Yinal or Inal the Great, a Circassian prince who repatriated from Egypt and united all Circassians into one single state. He died in 1427. So the pshi of all Circassian provinces considered themselves to be relatives and they are referred to as the Inalids.
Then there were nobles (wark) of 4 ranks, tlakotlesh (most influential, only a few families belonged to this rank), dizhinugho(means silver-plated, they were second best), beslen-wark (these were vassals of pshi and formed the backbone of Circassian cavalry) and the wark-shaotlighusa (lowest in nobility, rarely owned a village, were most numerous, could be vassals to any other warks, some of them were ex-commoners).
Beslen-wark cavalry, as other Circassian cavalry, used their missiles before charge to soften the enemy. They had leather armor with metal stripes and better quality than lhukosho swords and sabres.
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - Bjedoughia and Temirgoy were neighboring Circassian provinces ruled by Inalid princes. They had light chain armor and weapons similar to other wark cavalry.
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze) - these were the best of the best, coming from Eastern Circassian province of Kabardia (Kabardey). Rich plains of the Kuma and Terek River made these lands a desired prize for every invader since ancient times. With no natural defences, like high mountains, Kabardian Circassians had to develop the best military orgainzation, weaponry and ammunition in order to survive. That they did. They grew their own special Kabardian horse breed (See here http://kabardians.com/), and horses later went through a training of their own, and were taught to bite enemy horses, hit enemy horses with their chest in order to overthrow enemy riders, not be scared of loud firearms shots, etc. Kabardian Circassians imposed strict discipline in their ranks. Weapons wer most valued in this region, and heaviest Circassian chail mail was produced here. It was so good that even in 1830's Russian bullets could pierce them. Kabardian sashkhos- sabres were thin (one could wrap a sabre like that around his waist), sharp (it cut a hair lying in water) and most durable. Kabardian noblemen had both long guns and pistols in addition to their complex bows (glued together from bones, wood and other material) to decimate enemy ranks before a powerful charge. One of the tactics they used to implement was this - they tied together their saddles by strong ropes and smash the enemy flank like a lava. Thus they simplu cut off the entire flank. Once they did that, they cut the ropes with their sashkho's and slaughter the overwhelmed enemy.
As you can see, infantery was inmoprant to those Circassians who lived in the mountains, and was anly a cannon fodder and auxilia unit for Circassians of plains.
3) Sieges.
Circassians stormed Bakhchi-saray, the capital of Crimean Khanate in early 1500's. They captured Astrakhan from Astrakhan Horde Tatars twice - in 1532 and 1534. In 1574 they sacked Trabzon in Northern Turkey. during Russian-Circassian War 1763-1864 they captured Russian fortresses many times.
Early siege tactics were primitive - ladders, ropes, night attacks, spies who opened the gates. Later Circassians used a special device - a mantlet in Circassian called Shaipkhot (bullet-catcher), which was a large shield made of logs with dirt and stone between them, mounted on wooden wheels or a wheeled carriage and protected several approaching to the walls soldiers. Once at enemy walls, they used explosives to blow up enemy defences and then Wark cavalry would rush in and turn the place into a bloodbath.
Cannons were rarely used, since they werent too dependable and there wernt too amny people who could operate a cannon. For exmaple, in the later stages of Russian-Circassian War, from 1830's Polish soldiers who were sent to fight Circassians as a punishment for their participation in the Polish uprising of 1830 and then fled to Circassians to fight against Russians, manned the Circassian artillery. We have written reports of XVIII century princely strongholds with light cannons on the walls, though, used for defence.
4) Religion. Circassians of the XIV-XV century were Pagans with some traces of Orthodox Christianity in the East and Catholicism in the West. Genoese and Venetian presence in the region until 1475 ensured intermarriages and Catholic proseletism. There even was a Circassian catholic Archbishop in 1330's called Joann de Zichi. On another hand, Emperor Justinian of Byzantia is said to bring Orthodox Christianity to Circassia as early as VI century AD. With mamelukes returning from Egypt and Turksish conquests Islam started to spread and by XVI century all pshi and nobles were converted to Islam, especially Eastern ones. Commoners remained mixed pagan-christian-muslim until XVIII century. Only at later stages of Russian-Circassian war, in 1840-1850's Western Circassians completely gave up their druidic practices and adopted Islam.
Since Circassians felt indifferent towards religion, preferring their own Adyghe Habze (Circassian Common Law), niether Orthodox, nor Catholicism, nor Islam (the latter - until Russian-Circassian war began in 1763) didnt play significant role in the region. Circassians were tolerant to any religion, since it was earthly deeds of knighthood and valor that occupied their minds, not the thoughts about the afterlife.
Hope the answers will be useful.:sweatdrop: :laugh4: Ask for more info if needed.
Cegorach these new friends are way behind me... ~:eek: I am scared! :laugh4: I can still answer a few of your question should I continue with my contributions?
Please stay and continue your contribution, si qwesh! You kept the fire burning in this thread, without you the topic could have faded away!
A few things for you, I thought you might be interested.
Dzhigit (Dzhiket) word is essentially Georgian. There was a tribe of Abaza people at the Black Sea coast who lived in the modern town of Adler area, who called themselves "Sadz". They were ruled by Gech (Gechba) princely family. These were fierce warriors and famous pirates. Western Georgia was their target of raids, Georgians called the Sadz people "Dzhiket". So fierce and fearless were this people that Georgians started calling that name any brave warrior. Russians adopted that word after Georgians and spread it across the Caucasus.
If you would like to see Dzhikets in the game, they should be a separate infantery unit called Sadz (Dzhiket) Pirates (Sadz Khydze, khy - sea, dze - army).:2thumbsup:
About cannon fodder. The population of the pre-war (1763) Circassia couldnt be any less than 2 million, perhaps even more, so there was a place for "cannon fodder". One of the tactics that coastal Circassians used against Russian fortresses was simply carrying fighters as second rider by horses up to enemy walls and then climbing them with ladders. Given that the Russians had cannons loaded with shrapnel, these attacs were at the verge of being suicidal and Circassians suffered heavy casualties. Because of that fact such attacks were carried out only when intelligence reports showed that an attack like that will be successful.
P007, finally you showed up brother. I'm glad to see you here.
Cegorach, from the answers that P007 gave you, hopefully you can make descision in which troops to add to the game.
If you did so, maybe you can let us know so we will look for images or maybe even ask one of our friends to DRAW (roughly)
useing a description in books. Since there are not a lot of images of Circassians of that time 1570-1700, we need to make up for it.
Ynal_the _Great, of course we need your input in this. You are the one who knows the game, none of us are gaimers. So by useing our information you can apply it to the game itself with Cegorach.
cegorach
01-13-2007, 14:17
I will have some questions later. I will need to think about those first.
For images you can combine the existing ones e.g. use an image and add that 'they should use this *another image* kind of armour and this *image* weapon' and so on.
This is accurate enough to me.
Also if you want a historical battle to be added to the mod later you can start digging for data, especially the map of the battlefield.:book:
cegorach
01-16-2007, 23:32
I am suprised by the single fact that according to your descriptions Circassian cavalry didn't use spears or lances - is it so obvious that you didn't mention it ?
Or perhaps the use of lance was limited to a certain part of warriors - those Petyhorcy present in Poland-Lithuanian did use lances, actually were nown for that.:inquisitive:
Yinal_the_Great
01-17-2007, 01:29
Maybe spears (or something similiar), but I never heard that Circassians used Lances ?!? :book:
That's Polish area of expertise :P
cegorach
Circassian cavalry did not heavily rely on spears, and you're not the only one to be surprised. In 1717 a group of Circassian mercenaries and Cossacks headed by Adyghe pshi (prince) Alexander Bekovich-Cherkasski (his Circassian name was Bechmirza Dawlet-Geri) recieved a task from Peter I of Russia to undertake an expedition into the Central Asian shore of the Capsian Sea to explore that area. They were attacked by large numbers of spear armed cavalry of Khiva Sultanate. As one of the Cossacks put it, "then we charged them the Kabardian way and made them leave their spears scattered across the battle field". Unfortunately I dont know the exact "Kabardian way" tactic, but I'll try to find out more. My idea is that they used the sashkho charge after firing a powerful volley at the enemy.
As for lances, Cossacks are more known for using them than Circassians. But even Cossacks gave up using lances against Circassians, with the following explanation: Lances are good against poorly traines cavalry only, whereas Circassians were trained to dodge the the first blow and immideatly get to the enemy at a sashkho strike distance; then the lance became not only useless but acctually hampering.
cegorach
01-17-2007, 12:47
Hmm actually it depends what tactics are used. Poorly trained or poorly formed lancers are iefficient except against worse enemy cavalry, however well trained, disciplined and properly formed lancers can be the most devastating cavalry to face e.g. Polish Winged Hussars.
Cossacks do not represent the highest level of lancer cavalry.
I agree however that circassian cavalry had superb riders - even in 1812 Polish lancers said that only the caucasian cavalry makes the use of a lance inefficient.:book:
cegorach
01-17-2007, 13:00
OK. Another thing to research and propose.
HISTORICAL HEROES
Name and surname of a leader/priest/assassin/spy + his portrait (if possible) and some description to judge his
- command abilities
( 3 for superb commander of a small force, 7 for legendary leaders of entire armies)
- piety/lack of it
- acumen/governing skills
- dread - how feared he wa for his merciless character
- loyalty - to the country, to the higher commanders
Remember - ONLY between 1570 and 1700 (born or still alive)
Here are Inal's proposals
Kaytuko Aslan Beg: Warlike and Powerful. Does not show much mercy to his enemies.
Acumen 4
Piety 1
Command 6 (undefeated)
Loyalty 7 (Waged war for a stronger and more united Circassia)
dread 5
Birth Year 1670s
Pshi Bekmirza:
This guy is quite lame…
I am thinking stats should be around:
Command 2
Acumen 1
Piety 1
Loyalty 1
Dread 0
He had as much respect as his brother Pshi Kaytuko, but soon his lamentations and bad attitude lost him popularity among his people. Many influential Circassians left him alone. He than went to Tatars and tried to make them invade Circassia but he failed even in this and soon after he died at an early age.
Birth Year: 1650s
Pshi Kurghoko
He was the superior commander of Pshi Kaytuko, his greatest challenge was a battle against a huge Tatar army which he did not thought he couldn’t win but after Pshi Kaytuko encouraged him to fight and they made a plan together and crushed the Tatar army.
He was peaceful and wise, not so energetic I think.
Command 4
Acumen 5
Piety 1
Loyalty 6
Dread 1
He died after this victory though.
Birth year: 1630s
Pshi Kaytuko
Father of Kaytuko Aslan Beg. As a leader he was also quite successful.
Acumen: 6
Command: 5 (also undefeated like his son but he made the plans more than the leading)
Piety: 2
Dread 2
Loyalty: 7
Birth Year: 1640s
+Final Edit:
Pshi Bekmirza:
Command 2
Acumen 1
Piety 2 (+1)
Loyalty 2 (+1)
Dread 1 (+1)
Birth Year: 1650s
Just made him slightly better...
Here is the logic:
Piety 2 : Because he was in conctact with the Muslim Tatars.
Loyalty 2: He was not a total traitor.
Dread 1: Well... uhm... a few people probably was afraid of him.
(In the end he was still a prince)
and OFFICE TITLES and FAMOUS ITEMS
Honorary ranks, given to commanders/other leaders AND THEIR INFLUENCE
which affects various stats and how of course...
again earlier Inal's proposals
Jegwak'we
-1 Dread
+3 Acumen
-1 Loyalty
+1 Command
Quote from Amjad Jaimoukha's "The Circassians: a handbook"
"Music has always played an important life in the life of the Circassians. No festive occasion or merry gathering was worth attending in the absence of the Jegwak'we , the Caucasian ashogs,equivalentto the minstrels of Europe. The bards, severally or in small bands, roved the land singing ballads in company of their lyres generally imparting joy upon the people. They recounted tales and chanted anthems that bonded the young to their past. By the times this ancient tradition came to an end in the 1930s, a considerable number of songs had been collected and published.
Lets seperate Circassians into 4 classes:
1. Princes
2. Nobles
3. Freemen
4. Slaves and serfs
" L'aqwel'esh " = Duke
This is the highest among Noble class. Princes can raise and lower a persons standing and a few times princes were subject to lowering their class to for example Noble or Freemen...
+1 Command
+1 Dread
+1 Acumen
If you think these are not like what you are looking for just tell me I will try to find a few more similiar to like a governor or something.
gwdes: earl or the Continental count. Also foreign princes, kings and khans, who escaped to Caucasus were given this title. They had no part in leading armies though.
+1 Dread
+1 Acumen
'Eschezeihe (Armour-bearers)
+1 Command
+2 Loyalty
Ghwo (Town crier)
+1 Acumen
+1 Piety
Dizchiniqwe (Marquess) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess
+1 Acumen
+1 Command (make Duke +2 pls)
+1 Loyalty
OK should be clear this way.:book:
If there was a list of "OFFICE TITLES and FAMOUS ITEMS" of existing factions I could come up with Circassian equivalents... As for Historical Heroes and such I can refer you to the list of Rulers of Eastern Circassia (Kabardia) (will translate if needed)
Inal (около 1427-1453) бывал в Египте , объеденил всех адыгов и абхазо-абазин. Воевал с Мингрелией,
Tobyla Inal(1453-1465)
Janjhot Tobyle (1465-1483)
Inarmas Tobyle (1483-1498)
Beslan Jankhot (1498-1525) – ввел судопроизводство в каждом селении в Кабарде
Idar Inarmas (1525-1540) проиграл в борьбе двоюродным братьям Беслану и Талостану.
Ketouko Belsan(1540-1554)
Temrouko Idar(1554-1572) тот самый
Pshe'apshoko Ketouko (1572-1578) – ярый враг Темрюка, неоднократно воевал с войсками Ивана Грозного; был ориентирован на укрепление кабардинской государственности, избегая влияния и России, и Турции.
Kamboulat Idar (1578-1589) старался поддерживать отношения с Москвой, следовал заветам совего старшего брата Темрюка;
1589 – Aslanbek Pshe'apshoko (died same 1589), Jansokh Pshe'apshoko (supported by Mowcow, failed); Country in discord;
Ketouko Pshe'apshoko(1589-1616) very weak, real rulers his brother Kazi (killed 1615) and cousin Sholokh Tapsaroko (killed 1616).
Koudenet Kamboulat (1616-1624) – последний потомок Идара, который был пщышхуэ (уалий)
Alegouko Shogenouko (1624-1653) Один из самых великих уалиев в истории Кабарды, внук Пшеапшоко.
Hatakshoko Kazi (1653-1672). Основатель рода князей Атажукиных
Misost Kazi(1672-1695) – основатель рода Мисостовых
Kourgoko Hatakshoko (1695-1708) – Когда крымца пришли в Кабарду 1708 и затребовали непомерную дань, Кургоко пошел на переговоры, чтобы оттянуть время, сказав, что они сразу не упеют собрать парней и девушек для дани. Крымский паша Алегот по прозвищу Жирный приказал ему снять шапку, выбил свою трубку с тлеющим табаком о бритую голову Кургоко, и дал ему два дня на сборы. Через два дня Кургоко разбил крымское войско у горы Канжал, при этом убито свыше 40 000. Труп Алегота – паши сбросили в реку.
Islam Misost (1708-1732). Его родная сестра была замужем за наследником крымского хана, политика была соответствующая, хотя это не помешало крымцам регулярно нападать на Кабарду. В 1720 году в Кабарде в походе убит крымский хан.
Tatarkhan Bekmirza (1732-1736) должны были избрать Асланбека Кайтуко, но не избрали, из-за чего он обиделся и ушел в Крым. Пять лет резни. После 1737 года изгнан из Кабарды Асланбеком Кайтуко. Разделение Кабарды на Кашкатаускую и Баксанскую партии.
Aslanbek Ketouko (1737-1746), the Great прозванный Великим. В молодости вел переговоры о возобновлении кабардино-русских отношений с Петром I по борьбе с Крымом, при личной встрече в Дагестане. Петр пообещал помочь, но никакой помощи не дал. Его советником был Казаноко Жабаги. А.К, принадлежит известное выражение – «Между этими двумя морями (Черным и Каспийским) и одному князю тесно». Получается, он идеолог великочеркесского шовинизма . Легендарная личность в фольклоре абазин, осетин, карачай-балкарцев.
Batoko Jamboulat (1746-1749) Распри в Кабарде.
Bamat Kourgoko (1749-1762) Распри в Кабарде. Фактически, был правителем только в Баксанской партии. В Кашкатауской в это же время старшим был Джамбулат Кайтуко.
Kasey Hatakshoko (1762-1773) При нем началась Русско-Кавказская война. Краткосрочное перемирие в Кабарде, новые распри.
Jankhot Tatarkhan (1173-1785) Старался лавировать между сторонниками независимости и русской императрицей Екатериной II. В 1774 году при штурме восставшими русской крепости Наурской убит его родной брат Кургоко (сражался на стороне восставших). Крупнейшие столкновения 1778-1779 года кабардинцев во главе с сыном Асланбека Кайтуко – Хамырзой – с русскими войсками во главе с ген. Якоби, потерян цвет кабардинского дворянства в битве на острове Кетуко на Малке (октябрь 1779). Ж.Т. не принимал участие в боях. Потеря северной Кабарды вплоть до реки Малка.
Misost Bamat (1785-1793) Один из первых князей, оказавших вооруженное сопротивление российской агрессии (Эшкаконская битва 1768 г.). Его избрание свидетельствовало о перемене в умах кабардинских князей. Поддерживает восстание Шейха Мансура в Чечне 1785-1788. Под конец жизни смирился с
Interregnum (1793-1809) Кто был в этот период валием в Б. Кабарде, я не знаю (((. Но это период роста освободительного движения, когда главную роль играл Адиль – Гирей Хатахшоко (Атажукин). Он и главный эфендий Кабарды Исхак Абук вели борьбу с насаждаемыми русскими властями т.н. родовыми судами. Это был период т.н. шариатского движения (шариатский суд был независим от русской администрации). В конце концов, после кровавых экспедиций Глазенапа и Цицианова в 1804-1805, после чумы и смерти от этой болезни Адиль-Гирея и Исхака, в Кабарде повсеместно было введено шариатское управление.
Hatokshoko Hatokshoko (1809) Умер вскоре после избрания, накануне нового восстания
Koushuk Jankhot (1809-1822). Last independent ruler of Kabardia, deposed by Russian General Yermolov. Избран вместе с А.Атажукиным, чтобы избежать споров о том, с какой стороны (Баксанской или Кашкатауской) будет следующий уалий. Трагическая личность. Потерял трех из четырех сыновей в войнах с Россией, последний – Джамбулат – был убит на его глазах в крепости Нальчик 1825. Прокламацией Ермолова 1822 лишен независимости в управлении Кабардой. Умер 1829.
Cegorach,
Asyou know we are working with mod builders from "Ognem i Mechem" at the same time. Do you guys communicate on daily bases ?
Just want to make sure that noone is doing double work and we all know what needs to be done and what stage it is on.
cegorach,
Dont think that we forgot about you, its just the language barier that some members of our organisation have when speaking English.
AS you know more information is availible in russian.
I would like to copy the images from other forum so you have a clue what we talk about.
Lhukotl Infantery therefore would be Lhukotl Tlesidze.
These were used to defend towns and villages, in large battle they were used as "cannon fodder". Possessing a weapon was a must for every Circassian, except for slaves (pshitl) and women. There was a special set of child weapons - smaller copies of real weapons. So even a commoner had to have som sort of weapons, mostly swords made at a local smithy and a round wooden shield. Those commoners that abandoned their peasanthood for search of glory and became wandering knights (see lhukosho raiders) had better weapons since their lives depended on it.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Costume7.jpg
Repatriated Mamelukes (Qakozha Mamyloukher) - Circassians became a part of Middle Eastern Mameluke system as early as X cent. A.D. Since some of them managed to become sultans of Egypt during the Bahri period (1250-1389) they kept bringing in even more of their countrymen into the Mameluke ranks, "buying" them in batches as many as 5000-6000 men from Genoese and Venetian merchants which controlled the entire Black Sea trade until 1475. By 1389 they outnumbered Turkic Mamelukes and seized power in Egypt and Syria until 1517 when Egypt was conquered by Ottoman Turks. XV century authors descibe Circassians having absolute power in Egyptian sultanate, even call it "Circassian State on the banks of the Nile". Of course, the majority of the population being Arabic, hated self-centered Circassian rule and greeted Ottomans as liberators.
After the fall of Circassian Burji (Tower, since Circassian headquarters was situated in a tower of the Cairo citadel) dynasty and execution of the last Circassian sultan Tuman-bay II, some Circassian Mamelukes stayed in Egypt, and by mid-1600's Egypt was again semi-sovereign from Ottoman rule, although now there were all sorts of Mamelukes, Albanian, Georgian, Abazian, Greek, Circassian and even Slavic. Others repatriated to Circassia from Egypt and conteporary authors (Evliya Chelebi, a Turk whose mother was Circassian or Abaza) describe many settlements of repatriated Mamelukes in Circassia up until 1660's. They brought back the "fourussiya" - special Mameluke physical training system.
Repatriated Mamelukes should be armed with Circassian sabres, metal shileds and spears (Circassian - bzhi or pchi, depending on dialect). They also carry small hadcuffs for capturing prisoners. Effecrive against cavalry.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Mameluke3.jpg
Abadzekh Shooters (Abazekhe Shabzawoher) - Circassia was divided in 12 larger provinces and 6 more smaller ones, which later merged with their larger neighbors. Each province spoke their own dialect of Circassian langauge. Abadzekhia was one of them. Circassians have a saying - "Shapsugh (see below) is a cutter, Abadzekh is a marksman". So Abadzekh Shooters are marksmen. One of their tactics was climbing trees in a dense forest and shoot at enemy troops from there. Several barricades in a row in the woods was their favorite tactics, by shooting at enemy and retreating from one barricade to another they'd exhuast the enemy. Also good at defending settlements since they shoot far with their bows (shabza), crossbows (sagyndak) and guns (foch or shkonch)
The Warrior in the MIDDLE is Abadzekh Shooter
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10013/caucasusrussia.jpg
Shapsugh Infantery (Shapsugh Tlesidze)- Shapsughia is yet another province of Circassia. There was Greater and Lesser Shapsugia, Lesser being at the Black Sea coast from modern Tuapse (by the way it is an authentic Circassian name) to Novorossiisk and the Greater one was in the Transkuban region. Weapons were similar to those of Mamelukes. They were good at hand-to-hand combat so we can assume them being basic Circassian infantery unit with good stamina. "Shapsugh don't like to burn much gunpowder" - is another saying about them.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10013/circasso2.jpg
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". (Psi - water, kha - dog, dze - army). I guess my friend Savoy's already answered your questions. I can add that their namee is said to be derived from their practice of using inflated wineskins (fend or shuent) to cross rivers at unexpected places (they didnt need a ford) and thus sneak up on enemy. Ambush and reconaissance is their specialty.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/art6/warrior1.jpg
Ubykh Infantery - Ubykhia is yet another Black Sea coastal prvince of Circassia at the border of Abkhazia. Ubykh and Kabardian (another region, see below) leaders had absolute power over their troops in battles and unlike other Circassian tribes could punish even execute a soldier for lack of discipline or routing from battlefield. Living in mountaneous area, cavalry wasnt Ubykhs relied on in their warfare. On contrary, they managed to develop a strong infantery unit, called wunaru, which means "building demolishers". These were truly tireless, mountains taught them to walk far in any terrain, run real fast. Their weapons were usual daggers, sashkho's (Circassian sabres) and guns, since Turkish presence in the Black Sea region made it easy to acquire gunpowder. I'll try ro provide pictures to illustrate each type of unit.
http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/albums/art5/normal_Image_25A.jpg
These illustrations are something that can be used as a base for the units in the game, although some additions and corrections must be done, especially for armor and weapons.
cegorach
01-28-2007, 12:33
I am checking the topic in the OiM forum every two-three days so no worries, but still posting someinformation right here is for your own good.
I used this thread as the database and recommended it to some people so it is always good to allow english readers to learn more about Circassia.:yes:
I am sure you will agree.
2) Cavalry in Circassian is shuudze, shu - horseman, dze - army.
Lhukosho Raiders - Lhukosho means peasant rider. Tejeley or tenjeley was a short jacket made of thick leather that protected from missile fire but could really help in a had-to-hand sword fight.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/Art8/normal_turk_prisoner.jpg
**********
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - as other Circassian cavalry, used their missiles before charge to soften the enemy. They had leather armor with metal stripes and better quality than lhukosho swords and sabres.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/petyhorcy1fd2.jpg
**********
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - Bjedoughia and Temirgoy were neighboring Circassian provinces ruled by Inalid princes. They had light chain armor and weapons similar to other wark cavalry. More green-gray armor for mountain, forest landscape
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/A%20Circassian%20Chief.JPG
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze) - these were the best of the best, coming from Eastern Circassian province of Kabardia (Kabardey). Rich plains of the Kuma and Terek River made these lands a desired prize for every invader since ancient times. With no natural defences, like high mountains, Kabardian Circassians had to develop the best military orgainzation, weaponry and ammunition in order to survive. That they did. They grew their own special Kabardian horse breed (See here http://kabardians.com/), and horses later went through a training of their own, and were taught to bite enemy horses, hit enemy horses with their chest in order to overthrow enemy riders, not be scared of loud firearms shots, etc. Kabardian Circassians imposed strict discipline in their ranks. Weapons wer most valued in this region, and heaviest Circassian chail mail was produced here. It was so good that even in 1830's Russian bullets could pierce them. Kabardian sashkhos- sabres were thin (one could wrap a sabre like that around his waist), sharp (it cut a hair lying in water) and most durable. Kabardian noblemen had both long guns and pistols in addition to their complex bows (glued together from bones, wood and other material) to decimate enemy ranks before a powerful charge. One of the tactics they used to implement was this - they tied together their saddles by strong ropes and smash the enemy flank like a lava. Thus they simplu cut off the entire flank. Once they did that, they cut the ropes with their sashkho's and slaughter the overwhelmed enemy.
Circassian Prince
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Costume1.jpg
Tlekotlesh- royals of 1st rank
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Costume2.jpg
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/normal_Tcherkess.jpg
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So, lets come to a conclussion about colors on Circassian Cavalery.
Lhukosho Raiders- will be brown-grey color, simple armor, brown horse.
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - Will be Blue-silver armor, grey brown horse, Better firhting next to water.
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry- will have green-silver armor, better fighting in mountain and forest areas. grey -greenish horse.
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze)- will have RED-silver armor, Best weapons, Black horse.
Additional
I would like to show you picture of Kabardian (Circassian) horse bread. It was very known for its strengh and bravery on battlefield. Kabardian horse was trained to fight the enemy, bite enemies horse, kill enemy with chest strikes and so on.
Bet horse for mountains and Caucasus labdscape.
Mixed with English horse, had new bread Anglo-Kabardian hourse, one of most expensive horses in the world.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=77
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/HORSE/Kabardian.jpg
Anglo-Kabardian horse
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/normal_Man%20and%20horse.JPG
Circassian horses had a mark on back left leg, indicating their owner. That mark was a family sign of the warrior or rider. YOu can see these indications on a lot of images of Circassian horses.
Circassian Saddle
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_5.jpg
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/normal_Saddle.jpg
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/HORSE/normal_Circassian_Saddle2.jpg
Royalty Saddle- red color indicates royalty.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/Circassian%20Saddle.jpg
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Additional Mameluk weapons
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/albums/Art10/mamluk_arms.jpg
Great Job!:2thumbsup:
We have to keep up on both sides, or cegorash will get mad :laugh4:
cegorach
02-14-2007, 21:55
I already am mad :hide:
:laugh4:
I am visiting OiM forum often but still it is useful to have it right here anyway. Thanks guys !
Ehh lately I am spending too much time before computer:ballchain: and the worse is it has hardly anything in common with modding...:wall:
Icefrisco
02-19-2007, 16:30
http://www.unpo.org/member_profile.php?id=18
site on general info on circassias history
Gedonist
04-01-2007, 11:35
http://i9.tinypic.com/4bqc9wy.jpg
http://i14.tinypic.com/2niz6e9.jpg
Ingushian (not Circassian) Castle - Ingushland (XVII c) incorporated in Kabardey (East-Circassian kingdom).
hey everyone ive been reading at this forum and i want to say goodwork and thanks for doing all those searches for this mode
myself i am adyghe if you want help at anything you can ask me :beam:
molashqre
10-23-2010, 08:52
Dzhigit (Dzhiket) word is essentially Georgian. There was a tribe of Abaza people at the Black Sea coast who lived in the modern town of Adler area, who called themselves "Sadz". They were ruled by Gech (Gechba) princely family. These were fierce warriors and famous pirates. Western Georgia was their target of raids, Georgians called the Sadz people "Dzhiket". So fierce and fearless were this people that Georgians started calling that name any brave warrior. Russians adopted that word after Georgians and spread it across the Caucasus.
First of all,Dzhiketi(Jiqeti in Georgian) is geographical toponhym,so it can't be the name of the unit.this word means ,,country of jiqs",so you can use name Jiqs.Secondly,Jiqs were independent people,so this region must be rebel's faction,were able to hire Jiq pirates,as mercenaries
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