The Reformation - idea in progress

[JoeyBritt]

The Reformation

As we all know, the shape of religion was changed drastically during the 16th Century with the advent of reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin. However, it seems to me that whilst many mods (and the game itself) cover this period, none have actively worked to display this period of religious and social upheaval in any detail.


The Ideas

- The mod should protray the religious struggle in Europe and the manner in which the external world (namely the Turks) took advantage of this. The three main areas of Protestant vs/ Catholic are England, the HRE and France, with immediate impact from Spain (Armada, aid in French Wars of Religion), Italy (The focus of the HRE vs/ French rivalries) and the Constan/Istanbul region, which was a focus of much crusading.

- The time of the mod's start is fairly open to debate. My first impression would be an early 1500's start, with factions struggling to update tech to keep up with the new Revolution in arms. This will be interupted in the first 20 odd years by the arrival of Martin Luther and his reformation. Of course this will cause a "rebellion" in the HRE of Protestant states forming the Schmalkaldic League, who, I think at this time, should become a faction by their own right. (And hence maybe two campaigns, one that starts at this point, to allow the player to pick Protestant).

- In England Henry VIII's break with Rome will be an important event, shifting England from Catholic nation to a Protestant one, and hence giving a potential ally to the S.League of the HRE.

- Time passes in France, who are still at war in the dynastic struggle with the Habsburgs, until the rise of the Hugenot party, another protestant faction (and allies?).

- By this time, therefore, Europe is split into Catholic factions (namely France, Spain, Italy, the Papacy and the Habsburgs <HRE>) and the Protestants (England, Hugenots, S.League, various other regions).


Me, Myself and Eye

- All the while, the Turks are coming from the East and arriving as close as Vienna.

I am a historian by both studies and leisure and have recently been focused upon the effects of Luther's reformation on Germany and the French Wars of Religion between the Hugenots, the Royalists and the Catholic League, the English Reformation and The Military Revolution in C16th Europe.
As for modding, I have worked a bit on the original MTW, trying to create an Early Modern mod, but have fairly limited experience, but am willing to learn


What/Who is needed for this project

- Researchers - Whilst I can do a lot of this myself, spreading the work load is always nice!
- Coders - People to know what on earth is going on with the program code to allow the advent of various factions at various times etc. And to change religions around etc.
- Skinners - For the look of the program (loading pages, faction sheilds etc), not models or troops as the period and armies are pretty much the same as in the vanilla.
- Perhaps mappers - Add more provinces? Maybe make Europe larger and cut out africa etc?

Anyone interested?

Cheers,
Joey

[NagatsukaShumi]

This is a very untouched area of history and has so much potential, I hope that this one comes together, it has alot of interesting possibilities involved, you can even add to it with concentration towards the New World of the period later on, alot of potential available to a dedicated team.

[JoeyBritt]

Thank you very much. Yes, I think you idea of the New World is a great one. Maybe by decreasing the expansion of the map Eastwards, one could increase the amount of American terrain and hence expand the religious battle Westwards, with the likes of the pilgrim fathers.
I hope beyond hope that some skilled coders will help with this project, as although I can attempt to pick it up myself, vetarans always add so much to a project.

[=Omni=]

Ooh, this mod would be great!

However, maybe you could expand the scope of it to cover not only the religious wars, but also the discovery of the new world? Because currently there is Medieval: Total Realism in production, that will cover the timeline from 1080 up to 1453 and Pike & Musket mod from 1570 onwards. So there's over 120 year long gap between 1453 and 1570, that unfortunately covers one of the most interesting periods :( So a mod within this timeframe would be a blessing :P

Ahh, O'm only daydreaming ;)

[JoeyBritt]

Well that could be a good idea, as long as the coding would allow the advent of new factions so that the Prots could appear because the second main idea for a mod that I had which I chose the Reformation over, was the Miliatary Revolution, which occured pretty much in those dates. So I think incorporating an early start there into the mod would be great, if say the script for the Marian Reforms could be edited into a Miliatary Revolution script...but until we can unpack the files i guess we jsut have to wait.

thanks for the input and support!

[=Omni=]

As I've heard the emerging factions are still in MTW2, so having some of them pop out after introduction of Luther's theses shouldn't be a problem.

Yay, I feel so excited about filling the whole history with mods :D now we only need hellenic mods and dark agesmods :p

[JoeyBritt]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/joeybritt/Esurge-jpg.jpg

I was thinking of a working name of Exsurge Domine, which means "Arise, O Lord" and was the title of the Papal Bull that responded to Luther's attack on the Catholic church.

Thanks again =Omni=. If that is indeed the case, then your idea of extending the mod seems very good. However, the only complication I can forsee is the need for two campaigns, one for Catholic factions starting in 1450ish and another for those who wish to play the Protestants, from the late 1500s (i.e when the Hugenot party are in their prime, so that one can play as the Hugenots, the Lutherans and the English etc).

Another thought I had, was for conversions. I'm gunna take a guess and say that it would be a hard script, although I saw something like it in the RW mod forums. But basically once the refomation begins, there would be a chance of any family members of the Catholic factions becoming Protestant either as a birth trait or one gained in the game. I saw this done with Judaism in a BI mod, so I'm hoping the system will be similar in M2TW as it could lead to some interesting civil wars :D

[JoeyBritt]

The Faction Question

So taking, for now, a starting point of 1450, I have done some quick research and come up with the following map.

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/266-02.GIF
Europe in 1450

On this map there are the following factions (from bottom left):

Sultanate of Fez
Granada Emirate
Kingdom of Portugal*
Kingdom of Castile*
Kingdom of Aragon
Navarre
Kingdom of France*
Kingdom of England* (incl. Wales)
Kingdom of Scotland*
Kingdom of Ireland
Holy Roman Empire*
Caliphate of Ifriqiyya
Genoa
Kingdom of Naples
Papal States*
Venetian Republic*
Kingdom of Denmark*
Kingdom of Norway
Kingdom of Sweeden
Despotate of Morea
Albania
Kingdom of Serbia
Bosnia
Kingdom of Hungary*
Kingdom of Poland*
Teutonic Knights
Livonian Knights
Republic of Novgorod*
Grand Principality of Moscow
Grand Principality of Lithuania
Principality of Moldovia
Ottoman Empire*
Byzantine Empire*

*(Those in Vanilla - some have slightly different names).

This equals 33 factions and doesnt include either the Egyptians in the East or any American tribes in the West. Supposing that the faction limit is hardcoded at 30, and we want at least 2 Western tribes for variation(Incas and Aztecs?), this means that 5 factions must be lost from the above list. For now I will take it as read that the map will be shifted Westwards and hence remove the need for an Egyptian faction.
However, we need 2 unique factions to enter later on, the Hugenots and the Schmalkaldic League and hence need to rid ourselves of 7 factions from above, or 10 to be safe.

My proposals at this stage are to ditch:

Livonian Knights (Combine Teutons and Livonians as one faction - Knights of the Sword)
Grand Principality of Moscow (Combine Moscow and Novgorod)
Navarre (make into a rebel province)
Genoa (same as above)
Ireland (and again)
Granadan Emirate/Fez (combine these two?)
Byzantine Empire (? - By now pretty irrelevant. Only small holdings around Istanbul, although Constantinople only fell in 1543. But is three years with one province really worth it?)

Serbia/Bosnia/Albania/Morea (one or two of these as rebels only)
- I'm loathe to get rid of the Despotate of Morea - it was a part of the Byzantine Empire that survived and would be interesting as not seen before.
- Similarly Albania as it would offer a nice buffer between the muslim Turks and the Catholics.

Any comments?

Thanks,
Joey

[=Omni=]

What I think about factions to ditch:

Navarre - can go as rebels (as you've mentioned)

Byzantine Empire - if you start in 1453 so iot's just after the fall of
constantinople, so you can ditch the empire

Bosnia, Albania, Serbia, Morea - well, hard to decide. The serbia fell into Ottoman hands in 1459 (at least that's what I've found - better ask Duke of Serbia from MTR about it), so as an independent state it'd last only 6 years - a bit short. On the other hand albania is the smallest coutry, but they had fought with the Ottomans the longest - and they had a famous ruler Skanderbeg. And as you think Morea sounds good, then I'd leave it.

Teutonic order - it has been defeated by the Crown of Poland in 1466 and since then it was Poland's vassal and didn't play a significant role until the XVIIIth century. Make them just very strong rebels, so they won't fall quickly. Or merge them with Livonians

Livonians - possibly merge them with teutonic order

Ireland - as you suggested, make them rebels

Prinicipality of Moldova and Wallachia - I'm not a good historician, so maybe that's why I didn't hear much about it; anyway I'd make one of them rebels(or maybe both)

Kingdom of Naples - give it to to Aragon

Kingdom of Sweden, Kingdom of Norway and Kingdom of Denmark - I'd start with them as a Kalmar union, and then (maybe in some historical event) split them between Denmark and Sweden (looking at my maps it seems that after split the Norway was still in Union with Denmark) This way we can have 2 factions instead of 3 - provided one of them (probably Denmark) could carry on the descent of the union (maybe it'd ba also possible to change it's name during the game)

Granada - would be nice to have them separate as another muslim faction, but I think they the were pretty in coma by then, so I don't know whether they should be rebels or they should be a part of the Sultanate of fez. I'd rather choose the second option (merging)

Genoa - leave it

Novogorod - make them rebels (later conquered by Muscovy)

I'd also add the Austria and maybe split the HRE a bit ( but I don't know how :p )

[=Omni=]

aww, Lots of typos :P I must check my messages betternext time. Is there an edit post option?

[JoeyBritt]

Damn, forgot Austria! Definately needed to split the HRE up a bit so that they don't get too powerful, although we've gotta be careful that they are strong enough to face the rebellion of the Protestant cities.

One idea that I was playing with was a Habsburg faction. Although Habsburg dominance did not really come to fruition until a the early 1500s they would make a good alternative faction. They would hold the Netherlands, Burgundy, Austria (and poss parts of the HRE, as its Emperors, although this could be separate). If this was the case, I would be tempted to rename the French the Valois so that this distinct dynastic rivalry could be played out. Of course the Habsburgs would not have control of Iberia at the start of the game, but it would be up to the player to follow the likes of Maximillian I and gain lands through marriage.

[Antagonist]

Interesting idea, I'd definately like to see some more mod projects set after the end of M2TW, a lot of scope for interesting conflicts and units.

I always find it difficult suggesting faction choices because as I play a lot of battles I always want as diverse a unit roster as possible, I'd be loathe to have two or three factions from the same culture, but if the campaign is a priority then historicity must come first.

Some thoughts on the ones you mentioned:
Byzantines - I see the argument for dropping them as they were pretty much gone by 1450, but the great symbolic significance of the fall of Constantinople seems a shame not to depict. Maybe mention it as a Historical Event or something once it happens?
Genoa - I'd advise dropping them if they're going to be very similar to other Italian states, but I suppose they were important.
Livonia and Teutons - I'd like to see them both but it's probably better to merge them.
Moscow and Novgorod - Merging is a good idea.
Ireland - Not much happening in 1450, but after 1580 or so becomes much more significant. Probably not enough to justify a faction, but it should have a significant rebel presence - a rebellion there before 1600 (with Spanish aid) came very close to ruining Elizabeth I financially and militarily. Would be interesting to play as (irregular light-armoured troops poor in pitched battle but masters of ambush and guerrilla warfare) and could work if you needed a small faction in the religious wars, but certainly not 1450.
Navarre - I like them, but again, probably not big enough in the grand scheme.

What about Switzerland? Pretty interesting in the 15th Century at least, gained independence and held a formidable military reputation for a while.

Anyway, good luck.

Antagonist

[JoeyBritt]

Exsurge Domine Overview, v1

Factions

Sultanate of Fez + Granada Emirate
A united Muslim nation covering the bottom of the Iberian peninsular and the Westernmost areas of Africa.

Kingdom of Portugal*
Pretty much as given in vanilla, except without the provinces bordering France

Kingdom of Castile*
Central Iberia. Sandwiched between Portugal and Aragon. What one would think of as Spain

Kingdom of Aragon
The Easternmost areas of the Iberian peninsular.

Kingdom of France*/ the Valois dynasty
Own much of what is modern day France, excepting a couple of remaining English strongholds. Also starting expansion towards Italy.

Kingdom of England*
Have Wales, but not Scotland nor Ireland. A couple of remaining provinces in France. Not a very powerful faction. Become a major Protestant faction in 1534.

Kingdom of Scotland*
Good allies with France against the English as strong Catholics.

Holy Roman Empire*
To be decided. Perhaps to be replaced with German states and Habsburg dynasty.

Caliphate of Ifriqiyya
Muslim faction in Northern Africa. To replace the role of the Egyptians.

Kingdom of Naples
The city state and its provinces in Southern Italy

Papal States*
Same as in Vanilla

Venetian Republic*
Pretty much as in Vanilla

Despotate of Morea
A struggling offshoot of the dead Byzantine Empire. Own modern day Greece. In good diplomatic relations with the Turks. Religion as yet unknown, but assumed Orthodox.

Albania
Ruled by the famous Skanderburg. Fighting hard against the Ottoman tide. Final buffer zone before the West.

Kingdom of Hungary*
Self-explanatory for now.

Kingdom of Poland*
As above

Knights of the Sword
The remainder of the Crusading Orders. Combination of the Livonian and Teutonic Knights. Strongly Catholic.

Grand Principality of Moscow
Russia

Grand Principality of Lithuania
Large faction south of Russia

Principality of Moldovia
Accepted Hussite refugee in 1460s. Perhaps combined with Wallacia under the rule of Vlad II Dracul.

Ottoman Empire*
The Turks. Centred at Istanbul

Kalmar Union
Sweeden, Norway, Denmark. Perhaps to be later split during the game by a civil war?

Schmalkaldic League
Alliance of Protestant cities in Germany. Arrive in 1531.

Huguenots
Alliance of French Protestants. Arrive in 1561.

Aztecs*
Native American tribe.

Rebels
Navarre
Genoa
Ireland
Novgorod
Serbia
Bosnia


Main focuses

Military Revolution
The change from small armies of knights to larger, infantry forces, including the notorious pikeman phalanxes. Also the advent of gun technology as a major turning point. The arrival of trace itallienne fortifications. The cost impact of new technology on war. Factions able to continue with old forts and old troop types but severe weaknesses of these must be highlighted, hence factions who upgrade will have a distinct advantage, yet cost must reflect this.

The Reformation
Starting with the heresy of Jan Huss in the 1460s, the beginning of religious turmoil. Events to show the Indulgences crisis, the 95 Thesis and the growing Lutheran threat. Maybe Luther as a Cardinal-esque agent with full piety (hence nearly impossible to assassinate) spreading the new religion. The Schmalkaldic League’s arrival and hence the split of the HRE (making them a very tough faction to play as). The conversion of England to a Protestant faction and the creation of the Huguenot party in France.
This suggests two campaigns. One, for Catholic factions, beginning in 1540s and another beginning in 1560s for those who wish to play Protestants.

A system in which characters may gain a Reformist look on life via attributes gained in life or at birth will keep the Catholic factions on their toes in an attempt to control rampant heresy before outright civil war breaks out.

Dynastic Conflict and the Italian Wars – possible feature
With the case study of the Valois and the Habsburgs, Exsurge Domine will bring to life the struggle between rival families to control and conquer. With the Valois ruling the French kingdom and the Habsburgs with lands in the Netherlands and Austria, each dynasty will find battle in the Italian peninsular for control of this rich land.

The New World
Hopefully the shift of the current map Westwards will allow for more gameplay to take place in the Americas. From first exploration to colonisation, the mod will allow the New World to have more of an impact on the game.

Time Period
The mod will start in 1453 after the fall of Constantinople and will continue until roughly 1650 (to be decided).

Historical Accuracy or Gameplay?
Whilst trying to be as accurate as possible, certain leeway will be taken to ensure that the mod makes an enjoyable game rather than a seminar.

Joining the Mod
To join the mod, please post in this thread, or PM me.

Estimated Release
Unknown. Due to the inability to unpack M2TW at this moment, this will have to be assessed later.

More information to come soon

ARISE, O LORD


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Thank you very much =Omni= for your input on factions and all other aspects. The idea of the Kalmar Union is great! I hope that you will continue to aid this mod as well as you have done this first day.

This mod seems to be rather promising, so please people, if you are interested, give us a hand!

Thank you, Antagonist. You are right in highlighting the importance of the Fall of Constantinople and hence this is where I feel the campaign should start. The current voice over will be replaced by one mentioning the event and an in-game even will mark it out too as an important date.
I also agree with your analysis of the Irish. It is all too easy to overlook them. Perhaps a rebel uprising in the 1590s to cause severe troubles for any faction holding the territory at that point.
Switzerland are indeed a highly important factor, esp. in the Military Revolution. If there are enough faction slots, the Swiss as a faction might be quite nice, but if not, their representation as mercenries will be noted significantly - i.e higher pice for Swiss Pikemen, but better stats...the pick of the litter when it comes to hiring troops.

Again, thank you very much!

[=Omni=]

:idea2: Ha, I know what we can cut out of the HRE - Bohemia! If we want to have Hussite wars, then Bohemia would be a good choice :)

I'm not sure about ending date of 1650. The main advantege of it is that we can include another major conflict on the religious base - the 30 year's war. However, the fighting techinques, dressing style, and even factions rooster is way different for 1600 than for 1453, so it might make the modding harder (as we'd have to model much more new units and we wouldn't have place to fit all factions) The next con is that the game would last 200 years, and if we used 2 turns per year (or even better - 4 turns per year) the game would last 400 (800) turns, which is way more than the current campaign (the mtw2 is ~200 turns) - the game just could become awfully long and boring.

[JoeyBritt]

That's a good point. I wasn't too sure about the finishing date myself, was just guess work really. Maybe a finishing date of 1598? This is when the Edict of Nantes was made, effectively ending the French Wars of Religion.

I've also had a butchers at the scripts avaialble without unpacking and by looking at the Mongol invasion script I think I have a good idea about how to do the advent of the S.League and the Hugenots. Also this "invasion" script could be used to have a large rebel force of Hussites appearing in Bohemia in 1460. That way it will probably fall to the Hussites, but the player has the ability to crush the rebellion if he has the forces.

[Maculio]

it would really be wise to extend to cover the 30 years war, it is a massively import event in the history of religous warfare and it would make the game better, i may be able to set up a event to make war break out.
Now a few ideas i have. During the Reformation in France there were various massacres, you should have that this affects public opinion and relations with factions who have accepted the Protestant Faith.

[Chuffy]

- In England Henry VIII's break with Rome will be an important event, shifting England from Catholic nation to a Protestant one, and hence giving a potential ally to the S.League of the HRE.

Technically Henry didn't change England into a protestant nation...

...in fact we are still not Protestant. We just don't answer to the Pope.

The Act of Supremacy and the breakaway did not change England into a protestant nation, everything was still essentially Catholic, Henry took the role of 'pope' himself. It wasn't until Edward that England shifted more towards Protestantism and the actions of Lord President Northumberland, namely intergrating some of the teachings of Calvin and Luther into the existing CoE doctrine/ceremony, England really stopped being Catholic.

But even then; Protestantism? Church of England mate!:clown:

Sorry, just being nitpicky.


Schmalkaldic League
Alliance of Protestant cities in Germany. Arrive in 1531.

Huguenots
Alliance of French Protestants. Arrive in 1561.

Instead of constricting things to a set series of dates why not make these more dynamic? Either having them working on a trigger or making their emergence a bit more random (i.e. instead of the Schmalkaldic League forming in 1531 why not make it anywhere from 1525-1540, or whatever)

Also, why no Netherlands/United Provinces appearing as an emerging faction?

Would it even be possible to reenact the inheritence of Charles V? Speaking of which I assume Austria is going to be in...?

[JoeyBritt]

30 years war would definately be a good inclusion, but as my history gets a bit sketchy there Im not too sure on how far weaponry and units had changed by that point. The idea of a relations script refering to massacaring protestants or visa versa would definately be a good inclusion.

Chuffy you are right that England was not really protestant with the Break with Rome and its heavily debated as to when it became "protestant", but I was simplifying to show that after the Break with Rome, England is seen as a threat to Catholic powers and a potential ally to Protestant forces, hence its placing in the Protestant camp. To create an Anglo-Catholic religion as a separate one would be far too complex and would impinge on gameplay as one main reason for making England "protestant" is to give viable allies to the Prot cause.

I do like you idea about the randomisation of appearances and if that is a feature which we can code in it would be a definate advantage.

Sorry I have no historical knowledge of Netherlands/United Provinces, which is why good researchers with alternative focuses are needed.

Well the inheritance of C-V would definately by hard in game terms to re-inact, but a marriage of a Habsburg prince to a Aragonese princess (and the removal of all alternative heirs by asassination ;) ) could lead to the gaining of those provinces by marriage just as done by Ferdinand, but in the confines of the game.

[Maculio]

you could code in the slightly random events - it must be between a certain timeframe.

As or a 30 years war it seems hard so maybe in a later version we could look at it, but not now tbh.

And you can code in the events causing effects in the campaign.

[Chuffy]

I would stay away from the 30 years war, it would be much more suited to being a standalone mod.

Speaking of which someone is doing exactly that: The Lion and the Eagle. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=237)

As for extra factions I'd definitely have Sweden as an emerging faction, representing the collapse of the Kalmar Union. Also Burgundy and Austria are a must, if you're including Scotland then it seems weird not to include two of the most powerful nations in Europe at the time.

The problem with Burgundy I guess is how to represent the inheritance...if at all.

Maybe including the Swiss as a bastion of Calvinism?

[Cyright]

Hello,
just a few words regarding the Hussites in Bohemia:
by your date of 1460&#180;s Jan Hus had been dead for almost 50 years. He was burnt in 1415.
And the Hussites were eventually crushed in 1437 by huge crusade armies (but only after 20 years&#180; struggle and few crusader armies wasted;-)). There had been religous unrest in Bohemia ever since, combined with hatred against the oppressing HRE.
Nice idea you have there.
Btw sorry for my engilsh.

[JoeyBritt]

Haha woops, for some reason 1560 came into my head. Dunno why! Cheers!

Thanks for the kind words

[Ignoramus]

You ought to include the Huguenots as an emerging faction.

[Chuffy]

You ought to include the Huguenots as an emerging faction.

Um...the Huguenots are in already.

[JoeyBritt]

Hey guys, sorry for the long delay, these past few weeks have been hectic! The ideas all seem to be coming along fine and dandy so I can't wait until the unpacker comes out and work can begin. As always we are still looking for new modders to join the team so let me know if you are interested at all. Nearly on holidays so hopefully a nice plan and some prelim work will be done soon.

[JoeyBritt]

Update

Modding attempts began today...very slowly! Tried adding a Huguenot faction as a tester and so far have failed rather miserably. Work on this will continue over the next couple of days. Have also been trying to add a religion with very little success! First time into the unpacked files so can't really be expecting much more. Updates to come as more work is done...

[Hross af Guttenburg]

but it would be up to the player to follow the likes of Maximillian I and gain lands through marriage.
Does that mean you intend to mod marriage and alliances to such an extent that takeovers are possible, it would be f***ing great and I would kill for such an implementation of realism but no, I don't think you were saying that were you...:shame:

[Frederick_I_Barbarossa]

Still need researchers? If so drop me a line...the Reformation is something of a niche of mine