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Cheetah
11-17-2006, 23:32
Lets start a discussion on balance issues. Though I have the game I got no time to play MP as yet, but I have heards some rumours about spanish musketeers, weak spearmen etc. ~;)

Please post only well identified issues with specific units, also please give examples.

Fenix7
11-18-2006, 16:03
We can start with unit sizes. If I quote |Heerbann|_Di3Hard


I played some games with the Elite clan together. They used small units if they played 3vs3. In my opinion, these size is too litte.

Due the lag issues this might be better solution atm, but I prefer normal unit size. Even if there is no lag I would not go above the normal unit scale.

NihilisticCow
11-18-2006, 19:20
What do people feel about basic archers (i.e. not armour piercing/crossbows)? In a game I've had 4 peasant archers shooting their entire ammo into the back (though not always, the engagement kept turning) of dismounted feudal knights and had about 7-12 kills a piece... just seems a bit too weak to me, I know they're very basic archers, but surely they should do a bit more damage?

Most people seem to agree that muskets etc. are too strong.

Monarch
11-18-2006, 20:41
Peasant archers are peasants, so if you liken them to their infantry counterpart then really you'd have to say they should be very weak.

I hope in a patch they make Spanish Musketeers more expensive, and tweak w/e other balancing in late era because I've played a couple of 1v1 late eras today, HRE (me) Vs Venice which I won a close victory and HRE Vs England (me) which I lost, both were very enjoyable, theres just something about the gunpowder which I really like, however I admit High era is best due to balancing.

Fenix7
11-18-2006, 23:38
I usualy play 10k matches and I almost don't use any upgreads on this florin level.

Regarding era's it seems to me that hight (we could add early too) era is the only one more or less nicely balanced. This are first impressions so far.

t1master
11-19-2006, 11:10
i've noticed archers/xbows outrunning my heavy cav. even if they're heavy they should still get caught by cav. could be operator error, but i usually can catch a unit of arrows even with gothic knights or camels in vi...

tootee
11-19-2006, 13:15
i've noticed archers/xbows outrunning my heavy cav. even if they're heavy they should still get caught by cav. could be operator error, but i usually can catch a unit of arrows even with gothic knights or camels in vi...
have not had m2tw yet, but logically no foot should be able to out-run a horse? even if a horse is tired..

Orda Khan
11-19-2006, 15:17
Speeds have been changed yet I still see men on foot managing to out run cav

.....Orda

][GERUDO][Mojoman
11-19-2006, 16:27
well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

tootee
11-20-2006, 03:27
[GERUDO][Mojoman']well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

:sweatdrop: have never seen a real horse in person (except at the race-course), but was just wondering, were horses used for heavy cav usually had better stamina rather than speed? I wonder if a horse will just walk when it is tired even if the rider forces it to run? i mean.. horses aint that smart right :sweatdrop:

I believe normal men will get really tired relatively quickly (like sprinting 400m) when running away from a horseman, and out in the open probably will be just sitting duck?

RTKBarrett
11-20-2006, 23:51
Unit size normal is perfectly fine with me... lag issues are a patch concern i believe.

Archers is a tough one cow, these pavise crossbowmen arent what the stats suggest... Anyways, dnt half the units in this game have AP ability? it was something that was seen as unique and important in BI... here its just normal.

Musketeers are the most rediculous thing i have seen in tw since the elephant artill... should i stop now? :D How can a unit with such range and power be seen as valid considering the timelines we are playing in. A unit of British redcoats would be happy to be that accurate over such a long range, it just boggles the mind... so yes monarch thats a must! to be adjusted.

Aonar i agree with u on high era being best. Early era is pretty standard across western europe as most factions have replica unit lists. It also appears that such giants as the turks/egyptions/moors are very weak at this level. In late the balance again goes bad as musketeers come into play which ive already stressed i hate... High is good because u can consider every faction as being strong. Western nations have their knights and crossbows, eastern factions have the powerful archers, heavy infantry to match the west etc. Everything at that era from what i can see can be good...

Most horses for medieval heavy cavalry would have been bred for size i wouldve imagined... no mongol ponys gonna take on such a challenge and manage to catch a skirmisher unit.

In response to cheetahs post on "weak spearman", i think the balance is perfectly fine... in the charge spearman cannot withstand knights but when bogged down and surrounded cavalry fall like flies which i think is accurate. Pikes only do better because they have the ground to absorb the force of a horse whilst a man cannot do so on his own...

Beast_of_fear
11-22-2006, 15:42
[GERUDO][Mojoman']well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

Mounted knights NEVER wore "inch thick iron plate" to begin with.
You're talking about something that would weight probably HUNDREDS of pounds!
From what I've seen of historical issues they were mostly mounted on "clydesdale type" horses (european) and no, a bowman on foot is not going to outrun that animal no matter what.

Puzz3D
11-22-2006, 16:24
The cav/inf speed ratios should have been adjusted for more differential when the skeletons were redone for M2TW. They will never be adjusted now because of the amount of work involved. In the old engine, the walk, run and charge speed of every unit type is individually adjustable in the unit stat file making it possible to fine tune the dynamic balance of the units.

UglyandHasty
11-22-2006, 16:52
I think cav need more speed. Especially the lighter units like mounted sergaent.

Paolai
11-22-2006, 17:52
how can you say that high era is the most balance one when there are not pikes? How you can outstand the overpowered cav charge without the only unit that can match it? I wonder if I am playing the same game as you :embarassed: . Imho the only balanced era is the late one with no musks.

Orda Khan
11-22-2006, 18:12
Hopefully the patch will address things like that

.......Orda

Fenix7
11-22-2006, 23:43
I wonder if I am playing the same game as you.

The only way to find this out is that we meet in lobby and try this out. So far spears counter cavalry good enough for me (I admit that sometimes I back them up with a cav unit)..there could be something I'm not aware of it - yet.:sweatdrop:

I've seen many people using option ''all'' instead of era and you are able to chose between many variety of units.

Darsh
11-23-2006, 10:01
The only way to find this out is that we meet in lobby and try this out. So far spears counter cavalry good enough for me (I admit that sometimes I back them up with a cav unit)..there could be something I'm not aware of it - yet.:sweatdrop:

I've seen many people using option ''all'' instead of era and you are able to chose between many variety of units.

I prefer all periods just for fun.

Paolai
11-23-2006, 13:27
spears do nothing against cav charge
On high era just 2 factions have pikes (france and scotland) so imho high cannot be a blanced era. Late and/or all eras are the most balanced ones.

Monarch
11-23-2006, 18:01
Not all factions on late have pikes.

In addition you can't really say its the most balanced "as lnog as theres no muskets", because if you need to take out a unit that many factions have to balance it, I doubt you can call it the most balanced.

Paolai
11-23-2006, 18:07
Not all factions on late have pikes.
but more than 2 right? Maybe more than 3-4-5-6...lets say 10 ok, but surely not just 2 :yes:



In addition you can't really say its the most balanced "as lnog as theres no muskets", because if you need to take out a unit that many factions have to balance it, I doubt you can call it the most balanced.

You can ban a unit in late/all era (musks), but you cannot add a unit (pikes) in high era for the factions that have not them. I hope you catch my point, and thats why imho late/all is the more balanced one.

CeltiberoMordred
11-23-2006, 18:20
I'm agree with Paolai. The lack of units in early/high able to counter cavalry charges is worrying, but it's just a first impression.

I still need time to play and see if there is any way to counter cavalry charges, because I find them very devastating (40-60 kills in normal size, maybe too high).

Paolai
11-23-2006, 18:33
Hi Mordred ~:)
Sadly there is just one way to counter the cav charge: pikes, spears are a joke. This is a really important iussue, and I wonder how CA could make tha cav charge soooo strong. How they tested it? :skull:

Fenix7
11-23-2006, 19:40
spears do nothing against cav charge

What I had in mind is that I use 2 to 3 spear units as a waste units on opponent cavalry, supported with my own cav units. That is what I've had in mind when I've wrote that ''spears are good enough for me'', but when we are talking about spear units sustaining cavalry charge..I agree with the words mentioned above.

Cheetah
11-24-2006, 07:13
how can you say that high era is the most balance one when there are not pikes? How you can outstand the overpowered cav charge without the only unit that can match it?

First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your. Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?

Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)

Darkarbiter
11-24-2006, 09:57
About spears... cant you just usually just move your spears so the cavlry have to lift up their lances to gain the charge bonus again. Then when the cavlry are busy trying to reform you charge and they die. Oh and btw cavlry are supposed to be powerfull against all but pikes so I dont see what your complaining about although admittably the swiss pikes got eaten by any heavy infantry... (havent played m2tw unfortunately but know a lot about the period)

I'm part of the SCA (society for creative anacranism or something like that). We are a group of medieval reinactors. After maybe 1 months training a man can be taught to run faster then a normal person (I.E. untrained peasent) wearing 50kg of armour. They take a while to get up to speed but the whole idea that light infantry can run 2x as fast as heavy infantry is ridiculas (so long as heavy infantry are trained [like knights!]). I heard the estimate of about 100-120kg for a fully armoured foot knight and 250kg for a fully armoured man and his horse. I don't really know that much about horses but heavy horsemen should be able to run at least a bit faster then light infantry at least for a little while. The only time i could see light infantry running faster then heavy horse is if the heavy horse have just done a 100m charge but if the horses have rested for at least 2 minutes they should be able to outrun light infantry for a while at least (should be enough to go behind your own lines again). I dont really get where the whole idea of hes wearing metal armour therefore he can only run at 0.5 metres a second is coming from... sure they may not be able to run distance but by god a man in armour whos trained can sprint.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
11-24-2006, 10:03
I still don't have the game, but hey, it has never stopped me from commenting so far :dizzy2:


First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your. Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?

When I read cav counter charge against cav, I feel like you actually acknowledge there is a balance issue :inquisitive:


Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)

I got to say it looks like both features are likely to make the game more interesting and more challenging. It's the kind of comment that makes me want to buy this game (now, if you can also mention a lagless 4v4...)

It also probably means that it will increase the difference between good players that are able to make good use of cavalry, and not so good player... Skill threshold might be higher...

However, among good players, able to make very good use of cavalry charge, the question remains: how can you skillfully stop or deter a cavalry charge with non cavalry unit?

Louis,

NihilisticCow
11-24-2006, 10:12
To some extent I've used double lines of infantry, so the first line gets hit and the second line attacks, but it's not an ideal solution at all as cavalry can pull back. I would agree that cavalry charge head on is far too strong in that there isn't really anything apart from pikes that can withstand it. I've seen too many games that involved wiping out an entire line of infantry with a cavalry charge from multiple units and then proceeding to fight the cavalry behind who get the morale penalty from routing units. Yes cavalry needs a clear line and needs to be facing, but it's not that hard to accomplish, even easy for frontal attacks.

Paolai
11-24-2006, 10:47
First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your.

The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.



Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?
Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you? This means that on high era we will have again 10 cavs vs 10 cavs. Good :no:
No m8, you have spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords. This is what I mean for balance, I wonder what does it means for you: Cavs to counter swords, cavs to counter spears, cavs to counter cavs, very good isnt it? :inquisitive:


The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it
And is it difficult? You charge only when you have a clear path, and at least for me it is not so difficult. In some weeks you will see more and more 12 cavs army, beleive me.


Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes) No, the charge is ONE of the cavs weapon and absolutely not the ONLY! Thier job is to attack on flanks and on the back. Do you really use the cavs only to charge??? Are u sure? Are you serious?

Darkarbiter
11-24-2006, 11:42
The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.



Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you? This means that on high era we will have again 10 cavs vs 10 cavs. Good :no:
No m8, you have spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords. This is what I mean for balance, I wonder what does it means for you: Cavs to counter swords, cavs to counter spears, cavs to counter cavs, very good isnt it? :inquisitive:


And is it difficult? You charge only when you have a clear path, and at least for me it is not so difficult. In some weeks you will see more and more 12 cavs army, beleive me.

No, the charge is ONE of the cavs weapon and absolutely not the ONLY! Thier job is to attack on flanks and on the back. Do you really use the cavs only to charge??? Are u sure? Are you serious?
Well yeh admitabbly i havent actually played m2tw but ive played the demo and ive played mods that are like it (I never play vanilla RTW) but I think half the problem with lots of guys getting wiped out is about unit sizes. From the looks of the demo low detail on m2tw is medium in RTW and so long as you have shaders off it works reasonably well. So i dont see the lag concern. At least i could probably play huge 2vs2 or large 3vs3. Also whats wrong with using cavlry to counter cavlry? I think you guys are thinking too hard.
You have Enemy Cavlry-Allied cavlry-allied infantry


--------------EC




-------------AIAI
--------------AC
THEN


-------------EC

---------AI------AI

-------------AC
Now the enemy is pretty screwed. If they charge your infantry then they will get charged by the cavlry and or get sorrounded and if they go for the cavlry then theyre gonna get sorrounded.
Although i heard that unit speeds in m2tw are too slow but then thats what mods are for! Perhaps MP will just need a good mod to be balanced.
If you wanna see some other good medieval battles check out crusades mod for BI.
Btw the above tactic is pretty much what the romans did against elephants (except they didnt have cavlry to counter elephants).


And if you hate cavlry so much play forest maps. They cant charge at what they cant see.

Paolai
11-24-2006, 12:03
I do no hate cavs, but in MTW2 their charge is too strong (overpowered) thats all.

Spears are too weak.
Pikes are good for their job (vs cavs) but just 2 factions have them in early/high era= these eras are not balanced.
(but) Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Musks are too strong.
Archers are too weak.


I mean, what Palamedes has tested? Why (if) he needed help he didnt asked for it?

NihilisticCow
11-24-2006, 12:42
It'd be nice if CA ran open MP beta tests like several other developers do, the MP community may not be large but there are enough dedicated players to make it worthwhile imo.

I would definitely agree with Paolai's list of balance problems. The game itself isn't that far away from being very good online if these are addressed (reasonably quickly). ~;)

Darkarbiter
11-24-2006, 13:47
I do no hate cavs, but in MTW2 their charge is too strong (overpowered) thats all.

Spears are too weak.
Pikes are good for their job (vs cavs) but just 2 factions have them in early/high era= these eras are not balanced.
(but) Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Musks are too strong.
Archers are too weak.


I mean, what Palamedes has tested? Why (if) he needed help he didnt asked for it?
The swiss mainly used pikes and halbedeirs (the pike formations being similar to the macedonian ones) both were effective vs horses (pikes more so I think) but pikes also werent as effective vs sheilded infantry. As shown by the spanish infantry this was not invincible as it could be beaten by decent sheilded infantry. Therefore pikes shouldnt beat decent sheilded infantry (my knowledge based on the medieval art of war short ed.).

Apart from all else. Half of the swisses fame was gained by their good morale and excellent tactics and their fast movement speed and organisation. So they should (at least pikemen) get fast walk speed and high stamina rather then all around 1337ness vs infantry. Halbedeirs are another matter though.

Puzz3D
11-24-2006, 14:14
spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords.
That is what the gameplay is supposed to be. It creates a combined arms gameplay which is much more interesting than a gameplay where you figure out the best unit and use lots of them. In addition, the costs of the various unit types have to be adjusted to reflect the true value of the unit on the battlefield.

Palamedes
11-25-2006, 03:45
Great to see you guys have started the battle simulator balance discussions. Just to get you up to speed I am yet to see any issues posted we aren't fully aware of, so if possible please pretend we care and know what we are doing if you dont believe that to be true :dizzy2: . That way we can move forward and get stuff done. :2thumbsup:

Best way to sum up the situation: It's a bloody huge game and unless you mind paying twice as much and/or waiting twice as long not everything will be spot on for every player. We have to set priorities and work down through the list. Just about every issue listed in this thread are the current top priorities. So from my end I am just happy to know what we felt were the next most important issues are the ones being raised now. I would be concerned if we were being hit with requests we never saw coming.

What I suggest is that you post threads titled "Can you explain?" and start with these issues i.e. "Can you explain Cavalry", "Can you explain Muskets" etc. Then direct me to the threads and I will engage you guys in an explanation of the current status, what we are thinking to do, and then find out what you guys think so we can get it spot on. Again to emphasise we cant address every requests known to man :wall: so please work together and set a priority list and lets address them together from biggest to smallest.

You can contact me at the clan site: www.brethrenclan.com or at work jturnbull@creative-assembly.com.au

Hope to hear from you soon,

Jason

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-25-2006, 04:25
My Concern really isn't the Cav, Jason, since IMO, the cav isn't that strong.. The Musketeer units and Handgunner units are way to Strong. I played serveral games lately where people get 4-8 gun unitts, mabye 5 musketeers and 3 handgunners, and they killed my archers like crazy, while they only lose mabye 2 units and that it.

I hope you guys can fix these ploblems in 1-2 patches :-) , and not 3-5 like some people been saying :-(

Darkarbiter
11-25-2006, 08:43
That is what the gameplay is supposed to be. It creates a combined arms gameplay which is much more interesting than a gameplay where you figure out the best unit and use lots of them. In addition, the costs of the various unit types have to be adjusted to reflect the true value of the unit on the battlefield.
I disagree... Id rather not be playing the grand strategy equivelent of starcraft with only 3 units. It should be more complicated then that take RTR for example.
You get a choice of having a core of...
Phalanx (harder to reposition line and move slower)
Legion (move slower+dont have long spears like phalangites do)
Barbarian infantry (usually moves fast and causes fear but has lower defence stats and lower morale but higher attack)
Horse archers (very trickey but you can get away with no losses if the enemy has no ranged units)

Then you add in unique units, elephants, cavlry and archers/slingers/javelin throwers to the equation and things get complicated but in the end it works.

Now i know medieval times werent quite that complicated but surely theres more to battles then simple spears<swords<cavlry<spears equation?

Now as said previosly i havent played m2tw but I know about the period and what other ppl are saying. Now what would make sense is.
Your standard swords/spears and some hybrid archers are holding troops and make up the main battle line.
You have archers firing at important targets.

In terms of ranged stats and ways things work...
Longbowmen should have long range and reasonable rate of fire and arch projectory and should be able to effectively attack highly armoured knights.
Crossbowmen should have slightly less range and a more flat projectory and a slower rate of fire.
Normal archers should have problems with units with (metal) sheilds and or heavily armoured soldiers. Crossbowmen with pavises should be all but immune to them.
Pavise crossbowmen and longbows should be about equal with longbows having greater range and reload speed but pavis crossbows having greater ranged protection and perhaps melee skill.
Now from what i heard guns pwn all archers... thats unhistorical... they were mainly used for their ease of training and fear factor.
The way guns should fit in is their pretty innacurate at anything but short range but likely to kill and very scary when they do. Longbowmen should be better then gunners in general except for causing fear. Although gun militia should be more effective then archer militia in general with minimal gains in performance even when their elites. They should also have pretty slow reload.
So for the most part guns should be used for causing fear and doing a bit of 1 shot damage at close range. None of this pwning all archers shite.

Now ofcourse changes are gonna annoy people somehow and its usually not a good idea to annoy people if your a corperation but I think that someone at least should do something similar to what i just said.
Anyway what do people think of this model?

Paolai
11-25-2006, 10:25
Spears are too weak = give them a bonus vs cav charge, or a penalty to a cav that charge a spear


Pikes are good for their job (vs cavs) but just 2 factions have them in early/high era= these eras are not balanced. =give to the spears vs cav charge a bonus or a penalty to a cav that charge a spear

(but) Pikes are too strong vs Swords. = give to the sword a bonus vs pikes, or a penalty to the pikes that fight a sword

Musks are too strong = range is too high, change that and not more.

Archers are too weak = give them a little armour piercing.

This is if you want realease a little and FAST balance patch.

If you need help for tests PM me, I dont wanna money, just a better game.

Orda Khan
11-25-2006, 11:52
Thanks for dropping by the MP forum Palamedes
It is reassuring at least, to hear that you are aware of the issues raised so far.
I will start a new topic entitled "Can you explain..." as you requested. Please feel free to comment on any questions raised there. Interaction is the best way to pinpoint any adjustments required to achieve the best gameplay and I am sure we would all appreciate developer involvement

......Orda

Puzz3D
11-25-2006, 14:53
Now i know medieval times werent quite that complicated but surely theres more to battles then simple spears<swords<cavalry<spears equation?
Yes it's more complicated than that, but you have to get a basic relationship working before you can build upon it. In Samurai Wars, there are 3 RPS systems working across a set of 14 unit types all of which are useful. The gameplay is highly complex. Just look at some of the Samurai Wars replays I posted if you don't believe me. There were fewer useful units in MTW with its 100 unit types.

It's certainly more complicated than Starcraft because TW has fatigue, morale, various unit movement speeds, various combat resolution times for different matchups, effect of slope on combat, morale and movement speed, line of sight for individual men in ranged units, vacuum physics ballistic model for projectiles, various armor levels, weather effects on combat parameters, charge bonuses, flanking bonuses/penalties, outnumbering bonuses, squeezed too tight combat penalty, robust statistical model for combat and more.

CeltiberoMordred
11-25-2006, 20:50
I think still it's too soon to ask for balancing. A week or two is not enough time to stablish if muskets are too strong (and in which circumstances are too strong), of if pikes are far better than swords and swords need a boost vs pikes.

First of all, we should try to understand how game mechanics works. I have the suspect that something in charges is broken, but I'm not sure. At the moment good charges are powerful, not only for cavs but also for infantry, which can make 20 kills charging (medium size). Stats are not an useful guide to know which unit is better than others. We still don't know anything about the hidden stats that makes a JHI defeats varangian guards, having worse at/def stats. I don't know how powerful is armor piercing, or if it's worth to get units with armor piercing Vs armoured units or not; still I can't find why spears are better vs cavalry than swords, because my feeling is that they perform in the same way...There's a lot of stuff to test, and I don't dare to advice what needs to be changed yet.

Regards.

tootee
11-25-2006, 22:25
The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.

not sure if 3/4 is too much, but i had a unit of armoured sergeants going down to 15+ men after received two cav charges (almost simultaneoulsy). the cav were probably down to 35+ each before w/drawing.




Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you?

imo spear in TW (not sure about historically) isnt a cav counter, more like a cav deterrence; and to fight in h2h. I'm not familiar with history, but were the pike invented just for the cav? sounds funny to me considering they can never attack the cav. Pike looks more like a reinvention of the phalanx, a unit good at holding ground vs not only cav, but other infantry? Shouldnt they be decent vs sword/axemen?

To me, the spear needs less training than using a sword, so is cheaper, not as deadly in single h2h (unless they trained like Jet Lee).. not sure if historically can one withstand a cav charging.

So to counter cav, is to use another cav. And manoevure like Cheetah mentioned, whereby you protect against / deter the cav with spear from hitting certain spots.

But cav should not be able to rout a decent h2h unit which is not engaged, fully prepared and ready mentally for a single cav charge imo. so far for my games m2tw is realistic in this aspect.

:bow:

tootee
11-25-2006, 22:32
I think still it's too soon to ask for balancing. A week or two is not enough time to stablish if muskets are too strong (and in which circumstances are too strong), of if pikes are far better than swords and swords need a boost vs pikes.

First of all, we should try to understand how game mechanics works. I have the suspect that something in charges is broken, but I'm not sure. At the moment good charges are powerful, not only for cavs but also for infantry, which can make 20 kills charging (medium size). Stats are not an useful guide to know which unit is better than others. We still don't know anything about the hidden stats that makes a JHI defeats varangian guards, having worse at/def stats. I don't know how powerful is armor piercing, or if it's worth to get units with armor piercing Vs armoured units or not; still I can't find why spears are better vs cavalry than swords, because my feeling is that they perform in the same way...There's a lot of stuff to test, and I don't dare to advice what needs to be changed yet.

Regards.

Agree totally :yes:

Fixed all the bugs and lag issue in the first patch. Make 4v4 playable is utmost important. But is CA willing to support the community with multiple patches like STW? or just a one patch thingy?

:shame:

Kalle
11-26-2006, 00:40
Originally Posted by CeltiberoMordred
I think still it's too soon to ask for balancing. A week or two is not enough time to stablish if muskets are too strong (and in which circumstances are too strong), of if pikes are far better than swords and swords need a boost vs pikes.


Also agrees totally!

Perfect unitbalance for all units in this game is not what will ultimatly determine if it is a multiplayer hit or not. MTW was not prefectly balanced in many veterans opinion and still it hit the spot! There are other factors that should be looked into with at least as much effort as unit balance.

For instance I just started playing a little Mark of Chaos and its remarkable how they seem to be able to get the units very clear and nice from far away which seem very hard for totalwardevelopers. In short better overview is wanted.

Logfiles and replays, anyone have checked if these things makes sence?

Do the controls give that perfect feel as at least I felt I had in original MTW, so far my opionion is no. Handling groups is more clumpsy and im not sure the units and groups do exactly what I tell them and when I tell em. For instance if I have a group of archers and give them a groupcommand to aim for a new target will they all obey?? I think I have seen that they dont, correct me if wrong. It seem better then RTW (delay gone??) but not apar with MTW.

Morale is not presented in numbers along with other stats?

Exact unitbalance (whatever it means) is imo secondary to exact many other things.

Are we happy with all other things?

Of course I agree unitbalance should be discussed but it gotta be impossible to have tried everything allready and tried enough many times to know for sure what should be done.

Kalle

Darkarbiter
11-26-2006, 10:52
not sure if 3/4 is too much, but i had a unit of armoured sergeants going down to 15+ men after received two cav charges (almost simultaneoulsy). the cav were probably down to 35+ each before w/drawing.



imo spear in TW (not sure about historically) isnt a cav counter, more like a cav deterrence; and to fight in h2h. I'm not familiar with history, but were the pike invented just for the cav? sounds funny to me considering they can never attack the cav. Pike looks more like a reinvention of the phalanx, a unit good at holding ground vs not only cav, but other infantry? Shouldnt they be decent vs sword/axemen?

To me, the spear needs less training than using a sword, so is cheaper, not as deadly in single h2h (unless they trained like Jet Lee).. not sure if historically can one withstand a cav charging.

So to counter cav, is to use another cav. And manoevure like Cheetah mentioned, whereby you protect against / deter the cav with spear from hitting certain spots.

But cav should not be able to rout a decent h2h unit which is not engaged, fully prepared and ready mentally for a single cav charge imo. so far for my games m2tw is realistic in this aspect.

:bow:
The swiss beat every army except a spanish all infantry army of men with sword and sheilds (swashbucklers) but for the most part they were anti cavlry. Historically yes they were described as being similar to Macedonian phalanxs. The other main reason why the swiss were so successfull is because of their organisation and training. So they should be near invincible to cavlry from the front and pretty effective to unsheilded units (but unless anythings changed im pretty sure sheild is just the same as defence skill so thats impossible to program). So for example where a 2h swordsmen might be good in melee against the average person and a man with a sword and sheild is worse the man with the sword and sheild would be better agains a swiss phalanx.

P.S. The average non cavlryman in the medieval era wasnt very decent!

Mordred
11-26-2006, 13:44
Also agree to focus on the basic issues to get a decent multiplay.
MTW balance sorted itself out by playing, despite its imbalances.
Players just didn't use a lot of units, in the end it came down to using a variety
slighty bigger as the number of units available in STW. Which is ok.
So focus on biggest exploits, bugs and unit behavior not supposed to happen.

Fenix7
11-26-2006, 15:44
So focus on biggest exploits, bugs and unit behavior not supposed to happen.

Aye.

Sephriel
11-29-2006, 02:58
one word from me to the swiss pikes:
pike formations are rather not offensive units. its rather that the enemy wont come in 3 lines of pikes. what pikes can best is just to stand still an block a piece of field into a single direction. though slowly walking forward they'll push most of units just away, as everyone tries to avoid getting nto the pikes range. getting onto pikes frontally, theres only 2 handers and shields, but, even with a shield it is quite difficult, as most shields dont cover lower legs as well as the head.

afaik, in switzerland, the halberd was more often used as the pike (at least thats what i hear in all the museums here in switzerland :D ). a very common way of halberd formation was, not really as in the game, that the second line held their weapons vertical, ready to let their halberds crush on every enemy that had managed to come between the halberds of the first line, and, at the same time blocking high attacks of the enemies long weapons. as the first line was hacking especially on the enemies legs, this was a tacitic wich is very effective against infantry an a bit less against cavalry (but there also very effective).

one other thing that made swiss mercs famous was their loyalty; as most of them were not fighting for glory or money, but had just escaped the everlasting lack of food in switzerland, not actually beeing ambitious but rather searching for a place to survive.

narf... why did you have to mention the swiss pikes... this isnt what i wanted to write.... : /

actually, imo, balancing is great so far. there really is no overpowered unit: -ie. spears only cost 2.5 less than decent cavalry... 5 levy spears beat easily 2 feudal knights....
-musketeers have actually quite a slow rate of fire imo and cant shoot through your own unit (yes they can but my pikes only held one volley of my muskets before they ran off... *g* ;) ), whereas you can hides archers behind cheap units with shields (ie. levy spearmen ;) )
-artillery can have great impact but only hits seldom and is quite expensive
-pikes are good against h2h units but very vulnerable against ranged attacks and very slowly moving in formation,
and so on...

it's true that heavy infantry is getting less and less useful with guns and pikes, but thats just the way it was in medieval times ;) , and muskets were cheeper than bows (and faster trained), that's just how it was

what i have noticed so far:

-musketeers seem to have a really long range (this can really bug sometimes)
-musketeers have awfully long to change lines in volley fire
-an issue of ai (though its probably the wrong thread ... :P ): when commanding big groups the commands sometimes arent assigned properly or dont seem to work at all.... i have to choose the group, ungroup it, assign the command and then group them again... speaking of ai: the sieges bug is known (can get extreme lags as well as a totally crappy ai) ?

cheers :D

JeffBag
11-29-2006, 07:14
Spears and archers aren't that bad, use archers to disrupt the formation so you can prevent their cavalry/heavy infantry from getting a 'perfect charge', then your spears can kill all their horses. Archers aren't bad, they just aren't the uber kill all Pharoah bowmen of RTW; their purpose now is not to kill, but to disrupt enemy formations just before the clash of arms. Since infantry can kill almost 20% of an enemy formation in a perfect charge, disrupting their formation is very, very crucial.

RTKBarrett
11-29-2006, 16:54
Hey Paolai, havent seen u in the lobby yet :D

resonantblue
11-30-2006, 09:02
That is what the gameplay is supposed to be. It creates a combined arms gameplay which is much more interesting than a gameplay where you figure out the best unit and use lots of them. In addition, the costs of the various unit types have to be adjusted to reflect the true value of the unit on the battlefield.

I wouldn't like a game with that kind of gameplay. I like non-linearity. Whether that's the storyline for an RPG or the balance in a multiplayer game. Starcraft did this so well, which is why it is one of the most played multiplayer games in history.

Massi
11-30-2006, 10:41
I wouldn't like a game with that kind of gameplay. I like non-linearity. Whether that's the storyline for an RPG or the balance in a multiplayer game. Starcraft did this so well, which is why it is one of the most played multiplayer games in history.

sorry, but what do yo mean? non-linearity? the post you quoted talks about "balancement" which means that every unit has a sense and a use on the battlefield. Something like:

spears<swords<cavalry<spears

is this non-linearity? or is it linear, therefore boring? so lets have supercavalry that beats everything and end to all cav armies? Is it this what you mean?

KrooK
11-30-2006, 10:53
Guys remember that we are talking about Medieval times. High is era when knight charges decided about battles. It has been stopped in late, mostly due to english longbowmen, swiss infantry and czech tabor.
But what is really annoying into mtw 2 is that husaria does not have bonus vs phalanx and armour piercing bonus :) Into reality they had.

UglyandHasty
11-30-2006, 14:26
yesterday i try an all cav army in a 2vs2, but the host put 15k each. I had 8 heavy cav and 12 lighter cav(hobilars x 6). Our two opponent had a balanced army, were moving grouped. It was a quite easy victory. Charge after charge i have breack the ennemies. Sure it wasnt 10k, but it give a hint.

Paolai
11-30-2006, 15:21
Hey Paolai, havent seen u in the lobby yet :D


me too havent see you yet ~D


Barret and Cow, plz help me here!
People are understanding littel by little that I am right, but maybe they need also other voices cause you are both nice and talented players. I am sure also you have my same feelings about the imbalances that I have mentioned. Lets try to have a better game.

RTKBarrett
11-30-2006, 15:56
As long as palamedes is aware of these threads im sure he can make his voice heard and the patch can take care of ure worries ;-)

Paolai
11-30-2006, 16:02
ok lets wait and hope then.

NihilisticCow
11-30-2006, 16:40
Personally I don't see it as important what happened in history, no one knows that much, one persons fact is anothers fiction. The nobility that fought on horseback wanted all the glory, whether they actually gained it or not, so it was recorded that way.

In the game one stationary specialised anti cavalry unit (that doesn't fair that well against infantry) should not be wiped out by one head on charge from one heavy cavalry unit. Otherwise there isn't much point taking anything apart from cavalry and I'd rather have a more interesting game.

The other issues that I think are important were as Paolai mentioned:

Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Not quite as major, but why should so cheap units beat so expensive infantry so easily head on? Yes I know how to beat them and phalanxes in RTW, but I never felt them that ideal either...

Musks are too strong.
Simple one that most people agree with. ~;)

Archers are too weak.
I assume Paolai means the same as me; I'm not referring to crossbows that are quite effective, but the standard non armour piercing units. At the moment, there isn't an advantage to taking them over crossbows given a choice. Archers fire a little quicker than crossbows, but do lower damage and have no armour piercing so they're so much weaker against armour, so all that happens is they run out of ammo after not killing much, even through shooting in the back. I think their attack should be boosted by a couple of points, so the basic damage is the same as an equivalent crossbow (who of course will still have armour piercing, so will get big bonuses against armour). After all why would an arrow hurt an unarmoured unit any less than a crossbow? I think this should give standard archers a slight advantage over crossbows in a shootout with their slightly faster rate of fire, so it's not such a simple choice which one to get. Also it would help to kill horse archers a bit quicker, so make cantabrian a bit more of a necessity.

Darkarbiter
11-30-2006, 22:48
Personally I don't see it as important what happened in history, no one knows that much, one persons fact is anothers fiction. The nobility that fought on horseback wanted all the glory, whether they actually gained it or not, so it was recorded that way.

In the game one stationary specialised anti cavalry unit (that doesn't fair that well against infantry) should not be wiped out by one head on charge from one heavy cavalry unit. Otherwise there isn't much point taking anything apart from cavalry and I'd rather have a more interesting game.

The other issues that I think are important were as Paolai mentioned:

Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Not quite as major, but why should so cheap units beat so expensive infantry so easily head on? Yes I know how to beat them and phalanxes in RTW, but I never felt them that ideal either...

Musks are too strong.
Simple one that most people agree with. ~;)

Archers are too weak.
I assume Paolai means the same as me; I'm not referring to crossbows that are quite effective, but the standard non armour piercing units. At the moment, there isn't an advantage to taking them over crossbows given a choice. Archers fire a little quicker than crossbows, but do lower damage and have no armour piercing so they're so much weaker against armour, so all that happens is they run out of ammo after not killing much, even through shooting in the back. I think their attack should be boosted by a couple of points, so the basic damage is the same as an equivalent crossbow (who of course will still have armour piercing, so will get big bonuses against armour). After all why would an arrow hurt an unarmoured unit any less than a crossbow? I think this should give standard archers a slight advantage over crossbows in a shootout with their slightly faster rate of fire, so it's not such a simple choice which one to get. Also it would help to kill horse archers a bit quicker, so make cantabrian a bit more of a necessity.
Thats one of the problems with RTW code :(. Heres an example... say a unit has 10 armour and 10 sheild. A crossbowben firing from the front needs to worry about 15 ranged defence. While an archer needs to worry about 20. A crossbowmen firing from the back only needs to worry about 5 and a archer still needs to worry about 10. Making this better requires a lot of balancing.

NihilisticCow
12-01-2006, 00:43
Thats one of the problems with RTW code :(. Heres an example... say a unit has 10 armour and 10 sheild. A crossbowben firing from the front needs to worry about 15 ranged defence. While an archer needs to worry about 20. A crossbowmen firing from the back only needs to worry about 5 and a archer still needs to worry about 10. Making this better requires a lot of balancing.

Yes, but that's against armour, I was suggesting the increase in archer attack so that they're a better unit to use against unarmoured units, such as other archers/crossbows.

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-06-2006, 09:44
I think cav need more speed. Especially the lighter units like mounted sergaent.

Alans and Jinites are too slow. And these shooting cav are the hell, you cannot hunt them because, they can shoot also while they run away. I my opinion, if they can shoot while they run away, they shouldn't hit so many hunting cav. That cannot be. While they flee, they cannot aim any target.

ElmarkOFear
12-06-2006, 12:32
Look at all of you: Suckers for another TW game and now having the same type of discussions we had during the STW/MTW days! Some things never change around here I tell ya. Well, I guess you can add me to the TW Sucker list, since T1Master convinced me to purchase the game.

Being an MP-only player I cannot comment on the single-player campaign, but the MP lobby is still the pits, though slightly better than RTW's. The MP is still lacking a good replay, logfile feature set and I still have to mod my files to allow for the older, and better, simplified in-game chat function I enjoyed from MTW.

As for gameplay, I feel the game has improved over RTW's MP. I feel a slight bit more in control of my army. The units appear to react much quicker to orders than in RTW and the pathfinding is a bit better, though some units still get confused and take a longer path than I would like. I also have noticed a few units stopping in mid-battle after I gave them orders to move, or attack. Probably has to do with the new feature where each individual unit assesses its nearby area and decides on a course of action from there.

All-in-all, M2TW is a step in the right direction, and Palamedes appears to have a bit of input into helping improve MP, so I have decided to come back and participate here.

Well, I have been away for a very long time, so I imagine there are quite a few who do not know me, (or care for that matter :) ) I was the only TW player ever to recieve a tennis shoe contract from Nike for my men to wear while on the battlefield. My men run faster and farther off the field of battle than any other. Poor Michael Jordan still sends me hate mail since my men recieved a better contract than his. So fear not, I am back, and ready to build up your confidence in MP. I pride myself on taking overpowered units/armies/factions with a terrain advantage and then proving that I can lose like the newest of noobs. Matter of fact, my men all have smiley faces taped to their backsides so your army will have something to look at as they run away.

Take care and look forward to arguing . . . err . . discussing MP matters with you all. :laugh4:

Puzz3D
12-06-2006, 14:05
Look at all of you: Suckers for another TW game and now having the same type of discussions we had during the STW/MTW days!
I haven't purchased it. I saw the nice blue M2TW boxes in the store last weekened, and I wouldn't touch it even to see what it said on the back of the box.

If you want to play like the old days, play Samurai Wars on Sundays. You can't get an overpowered army, but the running away part works fine.

tootee
12-06-2006, 14:47
Well, I guess you can add me to the TW Sucker list, since T1Master convinced me to purchase the game.


Nice to see you again elmo :bow:

How i wish we can play 4v4 again.. :no:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-06-2006, 17:03
Look at all of you: Suckers for another TW game and now having the same type of discussions we had during the STW/MTW days! Some things never change around here I tell ya. Well, I guess you can add me to the TW Sucker list, since T1Master convinced me to purchase the game.

Being an MP-only player I cannot comment on the single-player campaign, but the MP lobby is still the pits, though slightly better than RTW's. The MP is still lacking a good replay, logfile feature set and I still have to mod my files to allow for the older, and better, simplified in-game chat function I enjoyed from MTW.

As for gameplay, I feel the game has improved over RTW's MP. I feel a slight bit more in control of my army. The units appear to react much quicker to orders than in RTW and the pathfinding is a bit better, though some units still get confused and take a longer path than I would like. I also have noticed a few units stopping in mid-battle after I gave them orders to move, or attack. Probably has to do with the new feature where each individual unit assesses its nearby area and decides on a course of action from there.

All-in-all, M2TW is a step in the right direction, and Palamedes appears to have a bit of input into helping improve MP, so I have decided to come back and participate here.

Well, I have been away for a very long time, so I imagine there are quite a few who do not know me, (or care for that matter :) ) I was the only TW player ever to recieve a tennis shoe contract from Nike for my men to wear while on the battlefield. My men run faster and farther off the field of battle than any other. Poor Michael Jordan still sends me hate mail since my men recieved a better contract than his. So fear not, I am back, and ready to build up your confidence in MP. I pride myself on taking overpowered units/armies/factions with a terrain advantage and then proving that I can lose like the newest of noobs. Matter of fact, my men all have smiley faces taped to their backsides so your army will have something to look at as they run away.

Take care and look forward to arguing . . . err . . discussing MP matters with you all. :laugh4:




Heyyyyyyyyyyyy Elllllllllllllllllllllllll :laugh4:

I know you would come back to .org sooner or later, you can'y resit the power of.... ORG :2thumbsup: ,hope to play some games with you on MTW2


Yea, The Units do react faster, and seem the games is slighty more balanced then RTW. But I still can't believe how powerfull the Musketeers are. my god, I would use 4 HA and 1 Trezaiod Archer as Byz Empire against 5 Muskets, and my HA got massarced. in a High Era game ,my HA would PWNT, but in this case,they just got ran over. I was fighting a BK member weeks ago, and he had a nice amount of Muskets, and I had a Unit, 60 guys I presume, and it drop down to 45-49 guys in like, 10 seconds, I'm thinking "my god".

ElmarkOFear
12-06-2006, 19:29
Puzz: hehe You have resisted the urge aye? I hadn't bought a TW game since RTW, but I think T1Master used some kind of ancient mind control technique to get past my reservations about this game. :egypt: Plus my young son has been playing a few custom MTW/VI battles and wanted the new game. I just couldn't resist any longer!

Tootie! Good to see you my old "goldfishy" friend. Don't be discouraged just yet, since we may be able to play a low-lag 4v4 game in M2TW. The thing all MP players need do to prepare for a 4v4, is get into the options menu and change to SMALL UNIT SIZE and the lowest video settings possible. This helps tremendously. I have had one 4v4 game which didn't lag very much using this technique, so there is still hope. Unfortunately, I am still running my old PCs I used for MTW/VI, so I am not the fastest hostest with the mostest anymore. :laugh4: I let others host now.

Hey Warman! Didn't know you were still around. I remember when you were a new player on the scene, and under the impression I knew how to play this game. :) Anyways, I got a rush army that can steamroll over any musket army out there. hehe I imagine, after a few weeks of T1 and myself playing online, there will be outcries for the nerfing of my new favorite units! :listen:

Well gentlemen: Take care. I am off to bed. I am on the midnight shift, here at the plant, and was awakened by a contractor come to repair my new house, so I thought I would grab a small snack, jump on here real quick, then hit the sack. Gnight all! :hide:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-06-2006, 19:58
Hey El,

yup I remember when I was around on .com for a short while (at the beginning of 06 and in the Summer) :). You got a army that can streamroll over a Musketeer army? Tell me What it is :-)

ElmarkOFear
12-06-2006, 20:39
I wouldn't want to give away all my secrets before T1 and I have perfected our teamwork now! Let's just say, this army is very similar to the old Irish rush army T1 and I had in MTW. The units don't look like much individually, but when used in conjunction with their strong points and special abilities as a whole, it is extremely strong at 10k-12k florins. I haven't tried it at higher levels or lower levels than that, so I cannot say if it stays strong at those levels. :)

Puzz3D
12-06-2006, 20:53
Puzz: hehe You have resisted the urge aye? I hadn't bought a TW game since RTW, but I think T1Master used some kind of ancient mind control technique to get past my reservations about this game. :egypt: Plus my young son has been playing a few custom MTW/VI battles and wanted the new game. I just couldn't resist any longer!
Marc Antony couldn't resist Cleopatra, and look what happened to him. The blue box is very alluring, but I think there is an asp inside.

As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "These aren't the battles you want.".

ElmarkOFear
12-06-2006, 22:13
As that old drunk who thought he was a philosopher once said; "When you get nothing but lemons: Make lemonade." :beam:

I haven't found a replacement MP game which can keep my interest and my son likes the series now, so I figured: "Why not?" If I don't play it, my son will."

I just played my rush army against a 3-man Elite clan team and it worked very well. I will continue to tweak it to see if it is the M2TW equivalent of the old Irish rush army T1 and I once used.

I will have to try your Samurai mod now that you have had time to tweak it. Once I reinstall MTW/VI on this machine I will download it and meet up with you guys to play. Though going between MTW and M2TW may be confusing for me. It also might highlight the flaws of M2TW's MP by comparison.

Well, its good to see you again Puzz. :yes:

t1master
12-07-2006, 00:22
they're not as cool as the irish, but it will be a fun ride.... i bet i can route faster than you elmo!!!!

good to see some old salts poking around here and in the lobby again. the game is what you make it. right now it's a fun atmosphere and good to meet up with old friends again elmo.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-07-2006, 01:48
Hey,

yea Elmo, we should some 1v1's, and you and t1 should do some 2v2's againt me and my Aggony Clan mates,since I got into Aggony :) :)

Puzz3D
12-07-2006, 03:12
the game is what you make it.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Cheetah
12-07-2006, 13:33
ElmoooOOOOooo!!!! ~:) ~:wave:

Nice to see you back! This is the best news since the release of MTW2. ~;)


Anyways, I got a rush army that can steamroll over any musket army out there. hehe I imagine, after a few weeks of T1 and myself playing online, there will be outcries for the nerfing of my new favorite units! :listen:


I just cannot wait to play this army of yours! I still remember your cheesy byz setup fro MTW ~;p and how I defeated it ... :laugh4: ~;)

ElmarkOFear
12-07-2006, 15:08
I never played the byz Cheetah! :) Except for a few times to get even with a few who liked to use all cav armies. You weren't one of THOSE people were you? hehe Good to see you again Cheetah. Can't wait to have you in one of my games and utter those immortal words: "Cheetahs never win!" :beam:

I had the cheezy Elmohead All-Missile Army of Doom. I rarely lost with that army until they nerfed the entire faction in the first patch . . . I think Puzz and CBR might have been behind that one! hehe Though nobody I ever knew could play my army and win with it. I knew how to use judicious upgrading and knew how to set up and move my men around to great effect. And all without a single cav unit! :)

Ah! The good ole days of STW/MTW . . . glad I was around for it, considering it won't happen again in my lifetime.

Cheetah, I try to be on around 9 pm eastern standard time each night, so look for an UglyElmo and join up with me. Looking forward to it. I already have played with AMP, Cromwell, Kenchi Shaka, and 3 Elite clan members. All fun games.

UglyandHasty
12-07-2006, 15:08
Elmo is sooo into cheese ....

*run away*

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-07-2006, 15:37
Cheese is good :-)

I see you tonight them Mr.Tickle me Elmo :)

tibilicus
12-07-2006, 16:27
Cheese is good :-)

I see you tonight them Mr.Tickle me Elmo :)

Warman in Aggony?

lol..

Fenix7
12-07-2006, 16:36
AMP in MTW 2 lobbies?

UglyandHasty
12-07-2006, 16:38
well i also played him, so i guess he is back...

Warman is now a 1pain1 ... they make you shine Duck boots ?:whip:

AggonyDuck
12-07-2006, 17:27
Nope, real ducks don't use boots. Warman's duty is to clean my pond. ~;)

RTKBarrett
12-07-2006, 17:30
And once again the world proves that nothing is impossible...

UglyandHasty
12-07-2006, 17:40
Nope, real ducks don't use boots. Warman's duty is to clean my pond. ~;)


LOL , i should have expect that ! Quaaaack mate !


:bow:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-07-2006, 23:24
Warman in Aggony?

lol..


lol don't start


I don't clean Ponds, I just clean my Armour and Various Weapons :2thumbsup:

Cheetah
12-08-2006, 01:29
I never played the byz Cheetah! :)

yes, yes you did :yes: In fact it was soooooooooo cheesy that I am not surprised that you want to forget it. ~;p Dont you remember those v4 byz inf lined up in single rank "deep" formations? ~;) Supported by archers and tons of byz cavs ... shooting up your opponents and then whiping up the floor with the remainers using those v4 one rank deep byz infs? No?!?! ~:joker:


Except for a few times to get even with a few who liked to use all cav armies. You weren't one of THOSE people were you? hehe

You are confusing me with AMP or UglyPolar ~;p In fact people kept confusing Polar with AMP. Well, actually once I played an all cav army in MTW and after the battle someone told me that I played like AMP. ~:eek: I never played all cav again. ~:joker: ~;p


Good to see you again Cheetah. Can't wait to have you in one of my games and utter those immortal words: "Cheetahs never win!" :beam:

Where have you heared this?!? ~;) Dont tell me it is your first-hand experince with cheetahs. ~;p

And perhaps you ment "immortal last words" ~D ~;)


I had the cheezy Elmohead All-Missile Army of Doom. I rarely lost with that army until they nerfed the entire faction in the first patch . . . I think Puzz and CBR might have been behind that one! hehe Though nobody I ever knew could play my army and win with it. I knew how to use judicious upgrading and knew how to set up and move my men around to great effect. And all without a single cav unit! :)

Ah! The good ole days of STW/MTW . . . glad I was around for it, considering it won't happen again in my lifetime.

Cheetah, I try to be on around 9 pm eastern standard time each night, so look for an UglyElmo and join up with me. Looking forward to it. I already have played with AMP, Cromwell, Kenchi Shaka, and 3 Elite clan members. All fun games.

Good to hear that Elites, Kenchies, Fears, AMP are back. And I hope that they all will be staying. Which means that the game is balanced enough to be interesting for them. ~;)

I will try to be there. ~:)

Cheetah
12-08-2006, 01:31
I don't clean Ponds, I just clean my Armour and Various Weapons :2thumbsup:

So ducky hides his weapons in the ponds. ~;) ~;p Good to know!!!

UglyStrike
12-08-2006, 01:56
ELMO!!!!!!!! It was great to hear from you.

Elmo is digging deep into his old files to find players that can rout faster than him.:laugh4: I believe my Adidias equipped troops more than matched his run off the battlefield. Thou I still believe that him lining his men up facing the rear did give them a unfair advantage.

I have also avoided the game section to avoid buying M2TW. I actually just finally bought RTW w/Barb about 3 months ago. Thou with such a wide range of oldtimers back I may break down and get it. Thou from what I have been reading a groundpounder such as myself stands little chance against the turbocharged Horse units favored by some.

I will have to apply my technology challenged self to figuring out how to get around my firewall/router. (That was a scream for help for those that know me. :laugh4: )

This may be fun, I have really missed the TW games. Good luck everyone and hope to see you soon.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-08-2006, 02:54
So ducky hides his weapons in the ponds. ~;) ~;p Good to know!!!


MY, Hence the Word MY!! :laugh4:
Don't make me go eat ducky for Chirtmass :laugh4:

ElmarkOFear
12-08-2006, 12:00
Strike! Buy M2TW and T1 and I will show you the awesome rush army we have been working on. I have had great success with it thus far in both 1v1 and 3v3 games. 4v4 lags a bit too much though :(

M2TW MP is slightly better than RTW so it is worth playing just to see some old pals such as a few Fearful Ways, Kenchi's, Elites, and others. :) Since there isn't anything out now which matches even an inferior TW MP experience, you will still enjoy playing with your Ugly mates.


Cheetah: I vagely remember playing with the byz, and may have tried what you have mentioned, but my poor Alzheimer-riddled brain can't find a good memory of it ever happening . . . :dizzy2: Of course, being as unoriginal as I am I must have copied it from you my friend and was giving you back some of your own medicine perhaps? hehe

Remember all: I will be trying to join the M2TW lobby around 9 pm. Eastern Standard time every night possible to see if any of you are on to play with. My PC is still the same as in the MTW/VI days, so you will probably need to host.

I DO have some nice hints to make MP play go smoother and make it slightly less of a hassle to find and play in a hosted game:

1. Please have everyone in the game (especially the host) put their options on SMALL UNIT SIZE. It doesn't change the battles much from normal, but it really decreases the lag of the game.
2. Also, have everyone in the game (especially the host) put their graphics settings on the lowest setting possible. This also decreases lag, since the game plays at the slowest PC's level and the slowest connection speed.
3. Never join a game which is over a 300 ping. Anything over 300 creates a lot of lag for everyone.
4. When hosting please put your name or your clan's name in the game description.
5. Also, put some of the settings such as Unit Size (small, normal, huge), era (Early, Late All), and any special rules such as (No Arty, only 4 units of cav etc) So your game description in the lobby should read something like this:
"UglyElmo, Small, Late, No Arty"

Small things such as these, speeds the finding/joining of games and also helps reduce lag and disconnects once the game has launched.

Happy MP-ing everyone!

Strike: Give me a call sometime. I will PM you with my new email addy, so check your inbox here. :)

cromwell
12-08-2006, 16:27
Hey Guys,

Yeah ELmo and I played and then we had a 3v3 with AMP. I was in shock to see AMP in the lobby, so immediately got him in a game. lol

It's good to see all the old names back, I think we already have influenced the lobby/atmosphere while in there chatting away.

I wish I was working a more normal schedule, to get online with you all, however I have to leave it for the weekends for now.

Later

Cromwell

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-08-2006, 16:35
Strike! Buy M2TW and T1 and I will show you the awesome rush army we have been working on. I have had great success with it thus far in both 1v1 and 3v3 games. 4v4 lags a bit too much though :(

M2TW MP is slightly better than RTW so it is worth playing just to see some old pals such as a few Fearful Ways, Kenchi's, Elites, and others. :) Since there isn't anything out now which matches even an inferior TW MP experience, you will still enjoy playing with your Ugly mates.


Cheetah: I vagely remember playing with the byz, and may have tried what you have mentioned, but my poor Alzheimer-riddled brain can't find a good memory of it ever happening . . . :dizzy2: Of course, being as unoriginal as I am I must have copied it from you my friend and was giving you back some of your own medicine perhaps? hehe

Remember all: I will be trying to join the M2TW lobby around 9 pm. Eastern Standard time every night possible to see if any of you are on to play with. My PC is still the same as in the MTW/VI days, so you will probably need to host.

I DO have some nice hints to make MP play go smoother and make it slightly less of a hassle to find and play in a hosted game:

1. Please have everyone in the game (especially the host) put their options on SMALL UNIT SIZE. It doesn't change the battles much from normal, but it really decreases the lag of the game.
2. Also, have everyone in the game (especially the host) put their graphics settings on the lowest setting possible. This also decreases lag, since the game plays at the slowest PC's level and the slowest connection speed.
3. Never join a game which is over a 300 ping. Anything over 300 creates a lot of lag for everyone.
4. When hosting please put your name or your clan's name in the game description.
5. Also, put some of the settings such as Unit Size (small, normal, huge), era (Early, Late All), and any special rules such as (No Arty, only 4 units of cav etc) So your game description in the lobby should read something like this:
"UglyElmo, Small, Late, No Arty"

Small things such as these, speeds the finding/joining of games and also helps reduce lag and disconnects once the game has launched.

Happy MP-ing everyone!

Strike: Give me a call sometime. I will PM you with my new email addy, so check your inbox here. :)



awww Small, SMall isn't Fun.... untill the game lags up snd crashes :dizzy2:


I usally Do Normal El, for like 1v1's, since it's ok, and even 2v2's, but sometimes if I need to, I do host Small for 3v3 or 4v4's.

Puzz3D
12-08-2006, 18:15
Strike! Buy M2TW and T1 and I will show you the awesome rush army we have been working on. I have had great success with it thus far in both 1v1 and 3v3 games.
Thanks for confirming that M2TW is a rush game.

ElmarkOFear
12-08-2006, 19:27
Actually Puzz. I think T1 and I are the only ones who can do a good rush. :)
You have to use a certain faction to have any chance of a successful rush. M2TW actually favors a "defender" more than an "attacker." 10K games also keep players from getting an army of single or like units.

I have found cav aren't as strong as in MTW and/or RTW (from the week I played RTW MP). Arrow units can be devastating against you, if you stand still, since a few units have a much greater range than most others, but if you keep moving you can avoid big losses. However, you won't find the "Missile-then cav-then rush battles like you had in MTW. The camera angles and the slow response times of the units make it difficult to control your units like you could in MTW.

I have found it is still fun to play with my friends have to play a much different way. It isn't MTW, but it is still more fun than other RTS games out there.

I do understand your dissappointment with the state of MP and its lackluster lobby and missing features. I also know you enjoy the numbers game and figuring out all the odds and such to use to your advantage in battle, but M2TW doesn't allow for any deep cerebral study or testing, since there is little to no information on the exact effects unit values have on gameplay. Some units, by looking at the stats, shouldn't stand a chance at beating certain other like units, but they do. There must be some things hardcoded which make the difference like the old bonuses axe/sword units had vs. spear units in STW/MTW. You would probably find the game a bit too random for your tastes. Gonna miss playing with you though.

PS: I think you WOULD like how they have handled upgrading though:
1. An experience (honor) upgrade does upgrade morale (not sure by how much), and attack values by 1 and defense values by 1 as in previous games.
2. Normal Weapon upgrades are fairly expensive and some units cannot upgrade their weapons, while some can only upgrade one level before being restricted from more. This keeps some weak units from being made into uber units through cheap, unlimited upgrading. I think it works nicely to make each unit more unique than in MTW and RTW.
3. The same is said for upgrading armor. You cannot upgrade some units, and you are limited to one upgrade for most others (I haven't run across a unit yet whose armor can be upgraded more than once.
4. After the first experience upgrade, any further upgrades are cheaper, but do not upgrade weapons or armor, the stats don't show what is upgraded, but it probably is an upgrade to morale only or maybe the training level (which determines how responsive a unit is to your commands).

There are a few improvements to the RTW engine, so it is at least taking a step in the right direction, as I stated previously. Hopefully it will continue improving and you will join us in the future.


CROMWELL: I thought Hasty's rush, (uphill, in the rain, while wearing heavy armor) against AMP was a thing of beauty, don't you? Hasty routed like a champ and made me proud to be his teammate! I had quite a time trying to catch his men before they left the battlefield too. Hope I don't lose my lucrative Nike contract for my men. I have them running laps as we speak. :)

WARMAN: Small unit size doesn't effect the outcome of battles much. The game may play a little faster, since there are less men to kill, though I haven't really noticed a noticeable difference. Lag currently is the big fun-killer, so I am encouraging people to turn down all the settings to help out those who may not have the latest PC tech or good connects. You gotta treat those with lesser machines well, since they are the majority of players and will eventually turn into your friends/opponents in the future. I try not to bum any new players out, since we need as many as we can get. Promotion of the game is everything to the success and fun of TW MP. STW wouldn't have been half as much fun if there weren't several players who were willing to help new players and train them. I personally helped 100's learn the game after they expressed frustration with losing most of the time. It was always fun to see them beat me for the first time (normally the second game: hehe) and watch them move on to establish their own successful clans.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-08-2006, 20:40
Yeah El, I usally do Normal Units, gives it more fun with tatics so to speak, but I do small units like I said, for 3v3's or even 2v2's if I know it going to lag, since my com[ isn't the greatest (it's good, but not good enough not to lag)

Aelwyn
12-08-2006, 21:13
Hi Mordred ~:)
Sadly there is just one way to counter the cav charge: pikes, spears are a joke. This is a really important iussue, and I wonder how CA could make tha cav charge soooo strong. How they tested it? :skull:

It's sad to say, but I believe it's only going to get worse. Remember, there is a patch coming out soon, and it is going to 'fix' the issues with the cav charge. Which means the cavs will not stop prematurely like they have been before impact, making the charge more devastating.

At least from the notes from CA on what they are fixing, that's what it sounded like to me. There's a lot that needs to be done to cavs imo to make them closer to balanced.

Monarch
12-08-2006, 21:35
Hmm. I was just in a battle where my enemy began to charge 3 Knights Of Santiago on my line of highland pikeman, 5 men deep in propper formation.

I was like meh, take down all his decent cav in the space of 2 secs, then he only had some javelin cav and four chivralic knights left.

But to my shock the cav broke through the spear line, and where then in a ssword vs sword kinda thing with my pikemen. I had some feudals (dismounted) behind to reinforce the line. But the point is he basically took out all my pikemen in a headon cav assault.

Gameplay wise, thats very annoying :inquisitive: