View Full Version : Would You Pay for MultiPlayer?
KukriKhan
11-19-2006, 19:57
Vivendi, maker of World of Warcraft, has posted double-digit profits again here (http://www.vivendi.com/corp/en/home/), using the monthly subscription model.
This topic has arisen here before, but with the influx of new players, I wonder if pay-for-MP attitudes have changed any. So:
Would you pay extra, on a monthly basis, for better Multiplayer support (stable, always-on servers; more maps, competition ladder, etc.) ?
If "yes", how much would you pay?
EDIT: Poll is anonymous. You may make multiple choices to accomodate ideas like Lusted's below ("No, unless... ").
No, not unless a multiplayer campaign feature was in the game.
No never, not even if we would have a MP campaign or anything
The Spartan (Returns)
11-19-2006, 20:17
no thats whats great about computer games, most are free.
things like Xbox Live i wouldnt pay for.
Accidently clicked no, instead of £5 a month.
When I got my first tw game, Rome, I would never have paid £5 a month. However now I've played it so much and really like mp I think I would be prepared for a little sum of money. However the quality of multiplayer would have to go up too, stats tracker/ladder, better servers, optimized code for less lag, little features like if you don't spend 30 florins you can donate it to a team mate etc would be needed.
It has to be said lots of RTS such as Dawn Of War use gamespy, they have a stats tracker, friends list, stable servers, little lag (but it is an rts so that should be a given) and its all free.
I don't think I should have to pay for a better mp experience, but I would do if I was made to.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-19-2006, 22:25
Nope. that why I don't get games like WOW or EQ in the first place.. If the MP isn't free, no matter if it WOW/EQ or my Favortie Game, TW, I will not play MP on it..
NihilisticCow
11-20-2006, 01:42
I would pay for multiplayer, but I don't think it would really work for this game as is. What would you have, a multiplayer that was solely available for people paying? The numbers who play for "free" aren't that large as is. It might work for some massive campaign, but I don't really think that would work too well either. People always say a multiplayer campaign would be great, but I never really see how it would work for 99% of people. You can't have a campaign that has people constantly being substituted, nor can you expect any arbitrary group of people to finish it. Some kind of reward system for winning games (gaining resources etc) might work, but I'd suspect it would more reward time played instead of ability and so fielding better armies.
What I would like most is something like the automated ladder matches in WC3/CoH etc and regular balance patches so that it doesn't become just a game of who can build the most exploitative army.
As an aside I've often toyed with the idea of writing some kind of STW/MTW style web based campaign and using the game for the battles.
Anyway, I've gone completely off topic as usual... ~;)
No. I don't play p2p games anymore.
They should not use gamespy though. B.net was great & free, why can't more companies make online systems like battle.net?
NihilisticCow
11-20-2006, 01:53
No. I don't play p2p games anymore.
They should not use gamespy though. B.net was great & free, why can't more companies make online systems like battle.net?
Gamespy works fine in a lot of other games, it just seems to have issues here... and companies don't make online systems like battle.net because it costs a lot of money, especially when most people who play TW play single player. Besides if they did do, it would take quite a while before it got to even Gamespy's level of stability I would think.
p2p games? So you don't play any RTS game online either?
Yes, US$5 a mth but not for the current quality.
Must
1. be stable in 4v4, no lag, no desync, no drop
2. greatly improve the lobby interface.. by a lot.. friend list, ban list, ignore list, private chatroom like in STW, etc..
3. provide fast-response patches for bugs and improvement
4. support individual ladder as well as clan ladder
These must be there.. I would still pay even if game is not as balanced as desired..
KukriKhan
11-20-2006, 05:53
So, in 12 hours, we've garnered a 9(no) to 4 (yes) vote of willingness to pay extra money for extra MP content, despite the $60 retail price off the shelf. And 2 of the 9 are "yes but, maybe" 's. So actually, 7no to 6yes.
I wonder if CA/SEGA are interested in such a prospect - although these numbers are admittedly a mini-micro-microcosm of a 10% microcosm (of MP enthusiasts v SP guys). Personally, I think they should re-look at the idea.
Would I pay a dime (10 cents - $3.00 per month) a day to insure guarunteed connection, auto-patch updates, and new maps every week? You bet.
Would I pay a quarter (25 cents - $6.50 per month) a day, the price of a newspaper, for guarunteed connection, auto-patch updates, new maps every week, a player ladder, and other stuff? You bet.
Keep the monthly per-pay in single digits (<$10) and you may have a winner, like iPod downloads. Then you get not only the hard-core MP'ers, but also the cafe' tw players.
Content is king. Build it and they will come. Cliche' s for a reason, IMO.
Good morning.
In short, my response is never.
I prefer the single player experience, and when I do occasionally do multiplayer, I'd prefer to play with my friends and people I know, rather than some random 13 year old "ZOMG U SUX0RZ". For some additional thoughts of mine, there is a thread in the main M2TW forum started by Mr. hellenes to this effect, which I have a number of posts in.
And Mr. Kukrikhan, I would like to submit to the discussion that there is a pervading sense of WoW amongst my few friends who do play, that it has a huge, horrible amount of bugs and Blizzard's policies and practices towards it's players would impress even the WWII fascists. http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/11/16/2216246.shtml I'm not saying that you are/were, but holding up WoW as an example of the definitive multiplayer experience may not the best. This is of course a matter of opinion, but I would still like to submit that.
Lastly, another thought that I had whilst debating this same idea in the other thread with Mr. hellenes... I for one fall into the category of gamer who does NOT play a single game to the absolute or near absolute exception of all others. Even when a new game I've been waiting for a long time is just out, I'll still play at least 3-4 other PC games at the same time, just because I like variety and that's how I work. My friends who play WoW quite literally play nothing else, with the exception of 1 individual whom I've managed to get to buy M2TW.
Just some food for thought.:balloon2:
Cheers!
Myrddraal
11-20-2006, 15:50
But what about the casual MPer, who goes on rarely? Would he pay a montly suscription for 1 or two games? I doubt it. A better system could be a pay per day system, like you said, 25 cents or 13 pence a day is not much for a decent set of games.
If it cost 13p per day and you could order days like you do songs on iTunes, I'd pay, but not a monthly suscription.
I voted yes, but there's a but...
EDIT: I also voted !GAH Ichi GAH!, because I haven't seen that option in a long time :grin:
t1master
11-20-2006, 16:07
i vote gah ichi gah! but i'd not pay to play totalwar online...
we can already make our own maps, and mods and historical battles. lobby stability i'd expect in a finished product, like m2 is, and i'd expect bugs to be fixed via patchs, and not ones you have to pay for.
UglyandHasty
11-20-2006, 16:15
I wouldnt a canadian buck for it.
hellenes
11-20-2006, 16:26
If they did this I would:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72225&highlight=MMOTW
rather than some random 13 year old "ZOMG U SUX0RZ"
Yes because everybody in the lobby, apart from your friends of course, runs around saying "zomg u zuxorz".
Wow, my second post in almost as many days asking people to stop generalising about the mp community...
Lorenzo_H
11-20-2006, 17:15
NO NO NO and NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hate Warcraft. I hate bloodsucking Game developers.
Yes because everybody in the lobby, apart from your friends of course, runs around saying "zomg u zuxorz".
Wow, my second post in almost as many days asking people to stop generalising about the mp community...
My intent was not to overgeneralize about the MP community, but the so called "mp community" for the total war series as of the past few years has yet to impress me. (please note I'm excluding the well-spoken, well-mannered, and honorable old school players who were very enjoyable to play with and against back in the STW and MTW days)
As I stated, most of the time I play with friends and coordinate with them over tools such as Teamspeak, etc. The times that I haven't done so and have just gone looking for a random game, I can summarize the experience as follows, especially in the RTW and RTW:BI lobbies:
1. With few exceptions, there's always someone or more than one person going off on a tirade about (select one or more) ethical groups using some very interesting and choice slurs, including some new made-up ones.
2. Individuals having long, drawn out political debates or country-bashing instead of playing the game.
3. An individual or individuals who repeatedly spams/floods advertisements to join their clan, with "no entrnce reqwirments!!11" or something to this effect.
4. On more than one occasion, I played a game where the individual(s) on the opposite team acted exactly like 13 year olds, with no sense of courtesy or honor. Hence my "zomg u sux0rz" statement. I've had teammates in ad-hoc battles who were exactly the same.
Of those bullets, 1 and 2 are by far the most popular. I can recall at best maybe two ad-hoc games I played where my opponents and teammates were all courteous and honorable. Don't get me wrong, there are people out there who are by and large fun to play with or against, and don't act like nincompoops, I just haven't had the luck of encountering them yet. And from my own experience, they appear to be very few and far between. And here we're talking about making a persistent online world with these people.... Before you come back and tell me "That's not how the TW MP community is!", I'm just telling you my experience. Just my $0.02 USD.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. There are some complete normans in the lobby. But the emphasis is on some, not all.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-20-2006, 22:23
My intent was not to overgeneralize about the MP community, but the so called "mp community" for the total war series as of the past few years has yet to impress me. (please note I'm excluding the well-spoken, well-mannered, and honorable old school players who were very enjoyable to play with and against back in the STW and MTW days)
As I stated, most of the time I play with friends and coordinate with them over tools such as Teamspeak, etc. The times that I haven't done so and have just gone looking for a random game, I can summarize the experience as follows, especially in the RTW and RTW:BI lobbies:
1. With few exceptions, there's always someone or more than one person going off on a tirade about (select one or more) ethical groups using some very interesting and choice slurs, including some new made-up ones.
2. Individuals having long, drawn out political debates or country-bashing instead of playing the game.
3. An individual or individuals who repeatedly spams/floods advertisements to join their clan, with "no entrnce reqwirments!!11" or something to this effect.
4. On more than one occasion, I played a game where the individual(s) on the opposite team acted exactly like 13 year olds, with no sense of courtesy or honor. Hence my "zomg u sux0rz" statement. I've had teammates in ad-hoc battles who were exactly the same.
Of those bullets, 1 and 2 are by far the most popular. I can recall at best maybe two ad-hoc games I played where my opponents and teammates were all courteous and honorable. Don't get me wrong, there are people out there who are by and large fun to play with or against, and don't act like nincompoops, I just haven't had the luck of encountering them yet. And from my own experience, they appear to be very few and far between. And here we're talking about making a persistent online world with these people.... Before you come back and tell me "That's not how the TW MP community is!", I'm just telling you my experience. Just my $0.02 USD.
of course m8, I'm a MP player and before I would have said "That not how the MP is", I realize, that it is,just that. IMO, when all the Vets, well not all, but most of them left TW for good, or just stuck around on the fourms like .org or their clan fourms and/or just did old school gamging on STW/MTW, then the newer players on RTW, didn't have no Elders, so to speak, to direct, or try to direct them in the "honorable" path so to speak. You end up with people who are impartial, stupid riviarlies, stupid arguments, chat bans,etc....
I wasn't disagreeing with you. There are some complete normans in the lobby. But the emphasis is on some, not all.
Agreed, and my apologies for the confusion and not making that clear in my post, I assumed that people wouldn't read into it. In general though, my MP experience hasn't generally been positive since RTW.
The bottom line to me for this thread is that I do not want to see the TW games go the way of being online only. Right now, it's a good balance of singleplayer and multiplayer wrapped up in a single package. While I do generally prefer the singleplayer experience, having good multiplayer is integral to enjoying the game in my opinion. The PBeM idea is outstanding yet can be slow in execution, and having a live multiplayer campaign would also be great. Hellenes started an MMO thread in the main forum in which he had a number of ideas along this line. While I like the *core* of his idea, an online *live* campaign map and whatnaught, the execution of his idea is what I object to, aka making it the required mode of play as opposed to an optional mode, and also being subscription based which I utterly abhor.
Cheers!
Prince of the Poodles
11-20-2006, 23:06
I would have paid 50$ a month for Shogun and MTW MP.. I played them almost every weeknight unless I had something to do. In fact, in the heyday, i actually found myself cancelling social functions to play. :shame:
If they actually listened to players and fixed issues, made all games up to and including 4V4 lagless, and got the gameplay back to the level it was in the first two games, I would pay a lot to have that experience back. Ive never found it in another game.
RTKBarrett
11-20-2006, 23:39
Yes i would pay a small fee as this is the only game i actually put any interest in... However like many of u i would want to see drastic changes/improvements.
And i unfortunately *I usually dnt :P* agree with cow on the basis that the multiplayer community is really quite small in comparison to other top titles. Theres not enough interest in it to be making monthly earnings from it... There may never be enough die hard multiplayer fans.
HaroldVonBraver
11-21-2006, 00:45
No, not unless a multiplayer campaign feature was in the game.
This is something I would love to have for free (a multiplayer campaign). But if it was available for a price, I would pay up to $10 a month for it.
LordMorgan
11-21-2006, 01:08
I would only cosider paying if you had the ability to do multiplayer campaigns with the ability to save your progress because campaigns take time. So perhaps a yes but most likely no lol.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-21-2006, 02:59
if MP was much bigger, then 5 bucks a Month I MIGHT think about paying, but with only 200-300 players, then it makes really no sense then to charge the small MP communtiy..
Orda Khan
11-21-2006, 18:01
STW was a great online game and perhaps, with those old players one could argue it would be worth paying. I played STW a lot.
MTW was a smooth online experience, however they screwed that game with supposed patch 'fixes'. Spears were rendered usless and by v2.01 it was all cav/sword armies and boring tactical play. I did not see anything remotely worth paying for after v1.0.
RTW was a complete mess and none of the patches released could sort it out. The MP community voted with its feet and left. A very large percentage of battles were ruined by idiots, the lobby chat was even blocked due to the infantile behaviour. The worst experience of the series and definitely not worth paying for.
M2TW is a brand new title and already there are many issues. Why would anyone pay? Sure, if the server was smooth and flawless, allowing 4v4 with no problem but it isn't.
It's been six years since STW, there appears to still be a problem providing decent MP. The last thing I would do right now is start paying for this poor service. The game would need to be tactically superb and tightly balanced which it is not. I would give up on MP altogether before paying for it in it's current state.
In short my answer is a definitive no
.......Orda
RTKBarrett
11-21-2006, 18:19
Your really quite negative in alot of ure posts arent u... lol
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-21-2006, 22:25
Orda, I don't think CA will ever return to the old STW state of Fame for MP m8.. I think they can come close, but not right on the button. Why? that was 6 years ago. 6 years ago I was 8 and was scared of bees so bad,wasn't funny. Now I'm 14 and not. You get my point. It just, if CA can fix it up to a point, it be good for some vets to return IMO..
Maybe if you were in a persistant world, as a local minor noble, gradually building up an army etc...
Hmm.
But not for regular games. Especially hosted on private machines. Who would do that? Just be silly. You pay for a persistant world, for perfect servers, constant patching, admins, etc.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-22-2006, 01:13
Of course.. But MP is to small on TW, if it had 200,000-300,000 players MABYE, but not with only 200-300 or so, give or take 100 anyhow..
Orda Khan
11-22-2006, 18:09
Your really quite negative in alot of ure posts arent u... lol
What is your point? Should I send my posts to you to proof read?
.......Orda
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-23-2006, 02:40
I think Orda is just vocing his thoughts Barett.
I would'nt pay for TW. MP has been screwed since RTW and the first version of MTW was majorly screwed too.
I would'nt pay for WoW.
I paid for EVE for a while and I'd still be paying if I had more time.
If I pay it's got to be worth it and TW isn't worth it, MP wise.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-23-2006, 04:40
MTW/VI on MP wasn't bad Sinian, IMO, on the first one anyhow. RTW yes, was messed up, plus, I think it would be a bad idea to pay 10-20 bucks a month to play a MP game with how many people? 200, mabye 300? come on.
MTW/VI was'nt no, and that's what I said. The first version of MTW was screwed though, you'd take on average 30-60 minutes before you'd get into a game, and then most probably someone would get disconnected. There were so many issues I don't need to get into them in detail (I hope). What about the login issue. Before you could even hope to play a game you'd have to login, which most of the time you could'nt even do. I remember sittting there for an hour many many times logging in, disconnected from server, logging in, login failed, logging in,logging in, disconnected from server, logging in, login failed, logging in,logging in, disconnected from server, logging in, login failed, logging in,logging in, disconnected from server, logging in, login failed, logging in.
Once you actually got a game going suddenly the frekin thing would crash, or disconnect one player or more. In the middle of the game players would get kicked by the server. Server stability was a MAJOR issue (do I really need to remind everyone ?). Best was when not only did the game crash but you could'nt even log back in, coz there was your 'ghost' still sitting in the lobby waiting to play (lol?). SO the game thought you are already connected. And that's what we paid for. So now if someone asks would I pay. HELL ! NO WAY ! 50 bucks is not a whole lot in the industrialised world, but for that I can do a lot of stress free, fun things, like for example watch a great concert, or a play, or a night out, whatever.
It was pathetic and we all loved the game so much we actually spent hours and hours waiting to play. Finally they did get it working, but it was'nt close to perfect IMO.
How about America's Army, so easy. Log in, find server, connect, PLAY ! Takes about 30 seconds from the time you hit the shortcut on your desktop till the time you are IN GAME PLAYING.
How about EVE Online. Takes 90 seconds from the time you hit the shortcut till the time you are IN GAME PLAYING.
In the first version of MTW, you never knew how long it would take to get in the freakin game. Luckily I had time back then to sit around sipping beers while I wait, not anymore. Even if I had the time I'd never wait around like that again, NEVER.
And this is even without getting into the more intricate 'balance' issues. Beyond that RTW, incredible, just a tiny spot of the shadow of a great MP game TW once was.
Maybe I've just run my time. It was'nt at all interesting to have a battle in RTW, for me, unless it was scripted beforehand. There was no strategy, and tactics, interface was messed up comapred to the older TWs, teamplayi was less important. It had nothing of appeal to me. I played SP sometimes, and that was ok for a few hours, but then it was just missing some.. depth. Atmosphere was on the downhill in MTW from STW, and it got much worse in RTW. I tried the MTW2 demo and it's awesome, graphics are amazing, incredible detail. But I don't really care all that much for graphics, for me gameplay and depth, immersion is most important. I'm a person who likes tactics, strategy, depth. IMO since STW all that is going out in favor of flash. We now have an uberpolished product, a brilliant work, but it ain't for me, coz it does'nt have anything that appeals to me greatly. I will try it though, eventually. Hopefully there's some good mods for MP, coz with all that eye candy, I can just imagine how great it could be, if it had depth first.
KukriKhan
11-23-2006, 16:04
Honorable Sinan :bow: , you've detailed brilliantly my exact experience with TW MP ever since EA's Shogun servers went dark.
At least on those rickety old machines, I could count on at least one successful login per evening, I could pick between comp or friendly, I could scan the player ladders (even though those had gotten somewhat jiggered, thus irrelevant).
My point in bringing up this topic, was to figure out some way to bring back those STW MP days. What would it take? How much money? And what would I be willing to pay? And you (all)?
It looks like the answer is a resounding "no", so I'll not push this any further. I'm not on a campaign to make it happen - just wanted to guage our willingness to support an enhanced (or "return-to-Shogun days") MP experience.
p.s. I still hold a tiny bit of hope that some small dev team is working on a no-frills, MP-friendly re-make of STW. Even though I'm sure I'll see pigs fly and hell freeze over just before that happens. :)
My point in bringing up this topic, was to figure out some way to bring back those STW MP days. What would it take? How much money? And what would I be willing to pay? And you (all)?
It looks like the answer is a resounding "no", so I'll not push this any further. I'm not on a campaign to make it happen - just wanted to guage our willingness to support an enhanced (or "return-to-Shogun days") MP experience.
That makes alot of sense. I suppose that unless people do subscribe to MP, it will never get much development time. But if MP doesn't draw in the customer, which at present it doesn't appear to, then people won't subscribe to it. It seems like a catch 22 situation to me, but at the end of the day it's up to the developer and publisher to improve the MP experience and put up some free servers to pull the next generation of MP players in. When it get's popular enough and the community develops, a subscription service will be the obvious next step.
Orda Khan
11-23-2006, 17:37
Honorable Sinan :bow: , you've detailed brilliantly my exact experience with TW MP ever since EA's Shogun servers went dark.
At least on those rickety old machines, I could count on at least one successful login per evening, I could pick between comp or friendly, I could scan the player ladders (even though those had gotten somewhat jiggered, thus irrelevant).
My point in bringing up this topic, was to figure out some way to bring back those STW MP days. What would it take? How much money? And what would I be willing to pay? And you (all)?
It looks like the answer is a resounding "no", so I'll not push this any further. I'm not on a campaign to make it happen - just wanted to guage our willingness to support an enhanced (or "return-to-Shogun days") MP experience.
p.s. I still hold a tiny bit of hope that some small dev team is working on a no-frills, MP-friendly re-make of STW. Even though I'm sure I'll see pigs fly and hell freeze over just before that happens. :)
Yes,Sinan did a marvellous job of explaining just how frustrating TW has been online. The community has never been huge but it was big enough to offer varied opponents (unless you lived in the lobby) and variety of army composition certainly went downhill after v2.01 unless you met players like Sinan, who did not fall into the 'run-of-the-mill' category. A certain Sinan/Kanuni Turk combo springs to mind and how wonderful it was to see his cav manoeuvres. The SP aspect of the game has never really attracted too much of my attention, the AI has always been so easily beaten and campaigns just become boring after a while.
The more I ponder this new title (and don't get me wrong, the graphics are tremendous) the more I am inclined to question myself over buying it. Do I really want to spend a lot of money upgrading my PC? Will I do this only to be disappointed with MP again? Do I really want to get back in the MP rut of late nights and neglecting more important things?
Puzz3D once remarked "Wasted time is precisely that..wasted. You will never get that time back, it's gone forever."
In this high paced World we live in, where time is of the essence and where we try to fit more and more into our daily schedule, maybe I'd be better off calling time and walking away. In fact, devoting more time to my own bow rather than those of animated horse archers sounds far more enjoyable
.......Orda
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-24-2006, 04:56
Very well agreed Snian.. You said First Version of MTW, but you say MTW/VI no, I don't follow that part m8....Like Tonight, I had bad Lag in my game, and with me hving a Half Decent Comp and 8 MB Cable, I don't want anyone to dare tell me it's my comp. It's so frsutated trying to. That why I'm losing interstet with MP here on TW
BF2, takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get in game, with little lag, then the rest of the rounds go fine
AA, good
Guild Wars, BOOM!
but MTW2, meh, I just walk around when the lag comes.. But I think we all here have to understand, STW days aren't coming back. We can hope and wish that one day, mabye one day, CA will make a Final TW game, say STW2, and make it just, and I mean JUST, like the First STW,with balanced armies, a ladder,etc.... But It's not going to happen. That was 6 years ago. I already let go the fact of, we not going back to the STW MP days. If I was going to spend 6-7 hours doing the First MTW, MTW2 or BF2, I would say, The First MTW/VI and BF2, not MTW2 or RTW. period.
Darkarbiter
11-24-2006, 11:55
Vivendi, maker of World of Warcraft, has posted double-digit profits again here (http://www.vivendi.com/corp/en/home/), using the monthly subscription model.
This topic has arisen here before, but with the influx of new players, I wonder if pay-for-MP attitudes have changed any. So:
Would you pay extra, on a monthly basis, for better Multiplayer support (stable, always-on servers; more maps, competition ladder, etc.) ?
If "yes", how much would you pay?
EDIT: Poll is anonymous. You may make multiple choices to accomodate ideas like Lusted's below ("No, unless... ").
World of warcraft has as incredibly good GM support system and stable servers and few downtimes for the format. Thats why i quit eve online (took 3 months to even send me an email but still didnt fix problem that was a bug and reward me money i deserved as well as dayly downtimes and laggy servers). What im saying is if their gonna charge $15 a month for it then im gonna want to see 1 more thing be moddable each month and a really good GM service and stable servers (lag free too as well as maybe region specefic servers) they would also need to have different rooms for different mods (say if the mod pays like $20 flat fee. I highly doubt that would ever happen. So im never gonna pay monthly for this kind of game.
KyodaiSteeleye
11-24-2006, 15:00
I stopped playing MP right after RTW was released - poor MP maps, nasty forums, and most of all, awful games. I had not one decent tactical online RTW game which wasn't spoilt by infantile behaviour, ridiculous funding (i gave up trying to get people to play with less than full upgraded units) unit spamming or just plain annoying "special abilities".
TBH I play EVE online, and I'll pay for that monthly becuase there is regular new content and a lot of interactive stuff in-game. TotalWar doesn't have that. A well implemented, balanced MP campaign would make me re-consider.
Orda Khan
11-24-2006, 16:26
Very well agreed Snian.. You said First Version of MTW, but you say MTW/VI no, I don't follow that part m8....
He meant MTW v1.0 went through a terrible phase. By VI v2.01 the server was stable.
Unforunately v1.0 offered the best gameplay (see posts by Louis regarding spears etc) v2.01 was reduced to cav/sword.
I can live without STW, I prefer the idea of different factions. However, it's the tactical gameplay of STW that I miss and that CA, I'm afraid, have failed to match ever since
......Orda
BF2, takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get in game, with little lag, then the rest of the rounds go fine
AA, good
Guild Wars, BOOM!
.
I've never played bf2 on my current pc...but 3 minutes to get into a game seems like a very long time. As detailed as "hving a Half Decent Comp" is, what are the actual specs of your pc?
I'm finding games with just lh clan members in medieval 2 are actually extremely playable (almost no lag). I know quite alot of other people are saying maybe it may be peoples computers. Even if it is, then thats still not acceptable because if you have a half decent pc then you should get the game without lag, so it still needs patching, but just pointing it out...
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-25-2006, 01:32
Intel Pentium 4,2.8 GHz,512 RAM, Radeon X1300 256MB Card, 8 MB Cable
My comp runs BF2 well, with the expection of the 3 minutes, which I am suprise to see it runnning that well..
Ye its you're lac k of memory then. The system min requirments are just to get more people to play the game. Personally I think you need 1 gig to play it.
Orda Khan
11-25-2006, 11:33
Ye its you're lac k of memory then. The system min requirments are just to get more people to play the game. Personally I think you need 1 gig to play it.
I agree with that. The game is marketted through its wonderful graphics and though it is possible for many to experience better settings on SP, the settings should be lowered for MP (for the precise 'minimum spec' reason)
There are many reasons for choosing to play with 'known' players. That their systems are reliable is one of the major reasons
......Orda
I'm finding games with just lh clan members in medieval 2 are actually extremely playable (almost no lag). I know quite alot of other people are saying maybe it may be peoples computers. Even if it is, then thats still not acceptable because if you have a half decent pc then you should get the game without lag, so it still needs patching, but just pointing it out...
Sure, that... but then you shouldnt run it at too high graph settings. I know that, you know that... but I am really not sure if everyone does so. The serious players do (at least I hope so).. but sometimes you can just be almost certain that a certain person who joined up just runs at a bit too high graph settings for his pc. You never can tell for sure.
I doubt graphics settings has anything to do with lag for other players. If their cpu cant handle the number of soldiers then it would be a problem.
CBR
UglyandHasty
11-27-2006, 16:56
I dont know for the other players, but lowering my video setting to minimum have improve a lot the lag in the larger games(3vs3-4vs4). No difference in small game. Of course there's game that lag anyway ...
YellowMelon
11-28-2006, 05:38
Let's be honest, do we trust CA with our monthly fee? I mean ffs I bought the game and ALREADY multiplayer doesn't work for me and all their other customers who used steam and direct2drive. And instead of making an immediate fix for the problem they are waiting until the next patch, ridiculous.
Look at all those other games out there with automated ladders, community support. TW MP recieves little to no attention from CA and tbh they could probably do without the hastle, the only reason why they have it is because it is expected.
The COMMUNITY organizes everything, makes the tournaments, spends their time and money working because CA won't. They have an online system that doesn't even work, and then they would have you pay for the stability and features that should have been released with the game anyways? No, there is no way in crap that I would ever pay for online play.
People complain about MMOs when they p2p, but when you play those games there are updates and fixes bi-daily. There are people working the game to ensure that if there is a glitch they will come pull you out of a wall. Where was CA when my gamespy game went FAILED TO CONNECT FAILED TO CONNECT.
Alot of people know me as a very active MP community member, I love these games, but CA continues to provide baseline support for a small community that will probably continue to dwindle as the people who spend all their time and effort on trying to make a fun MP environment become disillusioned by the lack of ANYTHING given back to them. We can and will continue to run things better than CA. Heck, even the mods made by the community are better than CA could have ever hoped for. The only thing that keeps this MP community going is the poor souls that keep hoping that this great game will be better and not suck. Its like waiting around on xmas eve for santa and realizing he is not coming. He doesnt exist. (Sorry for spoiling it warman).
Rant/end
Darkarbiter
11-28-2006, 07:23
Let's be honest, do we trust CA with our monthly fee? I mean ffs I bought the game and ALREADY multiplayer doesn't work for me and all their other customers who used steam and direct2drive. And instead of making an immediate fix for the problem they are waiting until the next patch, ridiculous.
Look at all those other games out there with automated ladders, community support. TW MP recieves little to no attention from CA and tbh they could probably do without the hastle, the only reason why they have it is because it is expected.
The COMMUNITY organizes everything, makes the tournaments, spends their time and money working because CA won't. They have an online system that doesn't even work, and then they would have you pay for the stability and features that should have been released with the game anyways? No, there is no way in crap that I would ever pay for online play.
People complain about MMOs when they p2p, but when you play those games there are updates and fixes bi-daily. There are people working the game to ensure that if there is a glitch they will come pull you out of a wall. Where was CA when my gamespy game went FAILED TO CONNECT FAILED TO CONNECT.
Alot of people know me as a very active MP community member, I love these games, but CA continues to provide baseline support for a small community that will probably continue to dwindle as the people who spend all their time and effort on trying to make a fun MP environment become disillusioned by the lack of ANYTHING given back to them. We can and will continue to run things better than CA. Heck, even the mods made by the community are better than CA could have ever hoped for. The only thing that keeps this MP community going is the poor souls that keep hoping that this great game will be better and not suck. Its like waiting around on xmas eve for santa and realizing he is not coming. He doesnt exist. (Sorry for spoiling it warman).
Rant/end
That is truly terrible!!! CA not allowing Steam users to go online???!!!! /agreed about CA not giving a damn about MP either. Which reminds me of that person who said "NTW2 was screwing up gamespy and it would have to be shut down by CA". Even if it was (which it wasnt this person was speaking bullshit) I doubt CA would care.
Although CA doesnt really need to organise tornyments just hardcoding less stuff would be good and making different rooms for well respected large MP mods (RTR, NTW2 etc...) but even still they dont do that....
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-28-2006, 22:01
Let's be honest, do we trust CA with our monthly fee? I mean ffs I bought the game and ALREADY multiplayer doesn't work for me and all their other customers who used steam and direct2drive. And instead of making an immediate fix for the problem they are waiting until the next patch, ridiculous.
Look at all those other games out there with automated ladders, community support. TW MP recieves little to no attention from CA and tbh they could probably do without the hastle, the only reason why they have it is because it is expected.
The COMMUNITY organizes everything, makes the tournaments, spends their time and money working because CA won't. They have an online system that doesn't even work, and then they would have you pay for the stability and features that should have been released with the game anyways? No, there is no way in crap that I would ever pay for online play.
People complain about MMOs when they p2p, but when you play those games there are updates and fixes bi-daily. There are people working the game to ensure that if there is a glitch they will come pull you out of a wall. Where was CA when my gamespy game went FAILED TO CONNECT FAILED TO CONNECT.
Alot of people know me as a very active MP community member, I love these games, but CA continues to provide baseline support for a small community that will probably continue to dwindle as the people who spend all their time and effort on trying to make a fun MP environment become disillusioned by the lack of ANYTHING given back to them. We can and will continue to run things better than CA. Heck, even the mods made by the community are better than CA could have ever hoped for. The only thing that keeps this MP community going is the poor souls that keep hoping that this great game will be better and not suck. Its like waiting around on xmas eve for santa and realizing he is not coming. He doesnt exist. (Sorry for spoiling it warman).
Rant/end
Hey,
lol Melon, I don't think Santa will be bring you a Yellow melon this year :laugh4:
Ok, Yes, Melon is right. If I would have said what he said, I proably would have got my 3rd warning point, because I would have said it bluntly. CA really doesn't care. I think, they want to "help" so to speak, to bring back the people, beause, god forbide if they don't have a MP, and if some MP players BS to a Game Magainze, like PC Gamer (US or UK Editions or both)or CGW then you going to be in touble,they are anyhow. They wonder why, "Hmmmm, why isn't Grey wolves active anymore?" "Hmmmmm, Why did Fearfulways split up" "hmmmmm, why isn't Kenchi here annymore" and "hmmmmm, where have all the good players went?", there you go. Shogun for example, He gave me such a hard time with everything, plus he didn't respond to half my PM's.. Plus, he posts alot at the MTW2 section when the Chat Ban was in Past last winter, but he didn't post in the Chat Ban Section for a few months. Hmmm, Why? That Why, I hate CA with such a Passion. The Communtiy have to bust our ass to make it what it is today. And Yet, NO Help from CA. WE, have to run CWB, WE, have to run CWC, WE, have to Run TWPL and everything else. What the Hell do we get in return? a MP that is dying and getting overrun with these Jackasses who don't know a god damn about Being Skillfull. IEveryone here can argee with Me and Melon, even the Most Honorable Players here, will also. You know why? If MP wasn't such a hell hole, It would be Such a Better Game. you would see Old Clans on, and the RTW clans on, and it would be a GREAT MP IF CA stops pissing around. know I'm proably going to get warned for this, but at this point, I don't care.I just have to vent.
Morindin
11-28-2006, 23:34
The reason you pay monthly for MMO's is because they are always releasing new content. New items, new levels, new areas, new monsters, new features, etc.
I would not pay monthly for any game that did not release new content, and M2TW type games do not fit the MMORPG model.
So no.
Voigtkampf
12-04-2006, 13:04
The reason you pay monthly for MMO's is because they are always releasing new content. New items, new levels, new areas, new monsters, new features, etc.
I would not pay monthly for any game that did not release new content, and M2TW type games do not fit the MMORPG model.
So no.
I play WoW and some other MP games, like BF2142 and similar.
There is a grave difference between a game like WoW and MTW2, for instance.
On my server alone, there are thousands of people logging in every day. Lots and lots of people, yeah. I pay the monthly fee for a developing game, where the engs must bust their kneecaps (though often people think they never do) holding everything together. In a MMORPG of the dimensions as WoW, you have a steady inflow of fixes, items, quests, new implemented ideas... The complexity of the game's system is mindblowing, even though sometimes only z0mg kids appear to play it (which is not true; z0mger suxxorz leeterz are verywhere, even in - how sad - TW games...), and the amount of things that could go wrong is outrageous.
MTW2, for better or worse, is a SP game primarily, and they would never muster a will or ability to support the MP community 10% (maybe even far less) of the output of the Blizzard crew. Also, do not forget that Blizzard people are being criticized everyday, and with much harsher tones than CA, even if you may think that's impossible. Example; item X is broke in WoW. Crowd flames Blizz. Somewhere in their dungeons, folks are testing item X until they find out the reason, they hurry to fix it while their supervisor lash them and rush them to be more effective. They introduce the fix at the regular weekly maintenances, at the same time registering dozens of new ones, working on them as well. They listen to suggestions, they communicate with the fans, even though they don't get it right all the time, they try.
I believe CA's respectable reply so far was "there is no bug; the bug exist only in your mind". After several months of bickering, the reply is "ok, that is not a bug, its a feature". And after a year or so, when that one traditional patch is out, they may even sort the issue at hand... And raise three new ones in the process...
Imagine CA responding to our complaints, fixing issues at hand, responding to our needs, organizing decent servers, stop desync MP issues and so on? Maybe add new maps every few weeks or introduce new features? I find it hardly to believe even in theory, AFAIK, folks in CA were doing work on some patches in their own spare time, unpaid and unsupported...
There is no critical mass for something of a grand scale of MP support as you would hope, for, Kukri-sama. If we had thousands and thousands players, maybe then, but not as the things stand now.
hellenes
12-04-2006, 15:23
I play WoW and some other MP games, like BF2142 and similar.
There is a grave difference between a game like WoW and MTW2, for instance.
On my server alone, there are thousands of people logging in every day. Lots and lots of people, yeah. I pay the monthly fee for a developing game, where the engs must bust their kneecaps (though often people think they never do) holding everything together. In a MMORPG of the dimensions as WoW, you have a steady inflow of fixes, items, quests, new implemented ideas... The complexity of the game's system is mindblowing, even though sometimes only z0mg kids appear to play it (which is not true; z0mger suxxorz leeterz are verywhere, even in - how sad - TW games...), and the amount of things that could go wrong is outrageous.
MTW2, for better or worse, is a SP game primarily, and they would never muster a will or ability to support the MP community 10% (maybe even far less) of the output of the Blizzard crew. Also, do not forget that Blizzard people are being criticized everyday, and with much harsher tones than CA, even if you may think that's impossible. Example; item X is broke in WoW. Crowd flames Blizz. Somewhere in their dungeons, folks are testing item X until they find out the reason, they hurry to fix it while their supervisor lash them and rush them to be more effective. They introduce the fix at the regular weekly maintenances, at the same time registering dozens of new ones, working on them as well. They listen to suggestions, they communicate with the fans, even though they don't get it right all the time, they try.
I believe CA's respectable reply so far was "there is no bug; the bug exist only in your mind". After several months of bickering, the reply is "ok, that is not a bug, its a feature". And after a year or so, when that one traditional patch is out, they may even sort the issue at hand... And raise three new ones in the process...
Imagine CA responding to our complaints, fixing issues at hand, responding to our needs, organizing decent servers, stop desync MP issues and so on? Maybe add new maps every few weeks or introduce new features? I find it hardly to believe even in theory, AFAIK, folks in CA were doing work on some patches in their own spare time, unpaid and unsupported...
There is no critical mass for something of a grand scale of MP support as you would hope, for, Kukri-sama. If we had thousands and thousands players, maybe then, but not as the things stand now.
Thats why piracy will kill companies like CA....
The 7 million people of WoW are there because there is no free alternative with private servers sucking big time....
Well I would pay for a multiplayer only version of the game where all focus is on mp ... I did pay for several mp only fps -s .... on the other hand a monthly fee for a game when your own pc is the server why would any1 want to pay for that ...
TGI
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-05-2006, 00:17
I don't want to bash CA or anything, But It still seems they still don't care about MP, which isn't new.
I think it's because, CA might think, "It's a SP game, plus, why should we care about a game with only 200-300 people on MP?"
there you go.It doesn't matter if Palamades (Jason) works for CA and is also a MP player or not, That why BF2/2412 and other FPS and WOW and other MMORG's get more help, because they got more people, in the Tens of Thousands and in the Millions.
Honorable Sinan :bow: , you've detailed brilliantly my exact experience with TW MP ever since EA's Shogun servers went dark.
At least on those rickety old machines, I could count on at least one successful login per evening, I could pick between comp or friendly, I could scan the player ladders (even though those had gotten somewhat jiggered, thus irrelevant).
My point in bringing up this topic, was to figure out some way to bring back those STW MP days. What would it take? How much money? And what would I be willing to pay? And you (all)?
It looks like the answer is a resounding "no", so I'll not push this any further. I'm not on a campaign to make it happen - just wanted to guage our willingness to support an enhanced (or "return-to-Shogun days") MP experience.
p.s. I still hold a tiny bit of hope that some small dev team is working on a no-frills, MP-friendly re-make of STW. Even though I'm sure I'll see pigs fly and hell freeze over just before that happens. :)
This is the crux of the whole thing
alot of people thought MTWVI was ok MP - I was one who disagreed
STW original had a simplicity like chess - there was a very restricted range of units and all players had the same units to choose from. This lent very well towards MP - it was like chess - you both had the same sets of pieces - you knew each pieces strengths and weakness - it was all TACTICS
maybe you had to out manouver - maybe outlast - these men vs those - this unit first - then that
the simplicity of the RPS model and the restictions meant it was all down to your tactics vs your opponents
why STW MP was king and still is in my view
Even in those day the MP side of STW was the poor neglected cousin - the MP community flourished in spite of this - so the fact people feel MP isnt well support still - nothings changed
how to get those days back - maybe they cannot come back because those that made them so are now gone or have become disillusioned.
certainly are alot of neg nellies regarding M2TW - which if looked at on its merits is a superb game - yet people were critising before they even understood how the game worked - really these people need to walk away from games - because they are never going to find a game that meets their expectations - I pity them - buying these games and not allowing themselves to enjoy it or have fun for even a day - is it still worth playing games - if you never have fun
recreate STW with the graphics of M2TW but the simplicity and tactics of STW - then maybe - your dream could be realised
resonantblue
12-05-2006, 07:08
I find it incredulous people are complaining about things like cav charges being overpowered when the "perfect charge" telegraphs itself 10 years before it actually hits - which makes it easily managed. And I also happen to dislike the fact that MTW/VI MP had cookie-cutter armies. MTW2 vastly improves on this by making a large variety of builds feasible with distinct elements to each.
The best generals could adapt. Hannibal is one of the best examples of this. His army was constantly changing and he was good at determining how to utilize the strength and weakness of the soldiers he had available.
MTW/VI games against top caliber players often came down to spreadsheets, mth and the random number generator behind the scenes. Good players rarely let themselves get flanked and often had the exact same builds which resulted in one army engage a clone of itself, down to the last unit. The winner was determined by the flip of a coin (teammates aside). I remember many battles being determined by where in my infantry line I placed my one V3 CMAA. Left side? Right side? Center?... combined with where the first cavalry scrum took place. Wow! That required a lot of tactical thinking... except not.
MTW2 MP is much harder than MTW/VI. It's way more dynamic and to be good, it requires that you adapt quickly, on the fly. This is what made Starcraft so popular. You couldn't watch 10 replays and figure out the game. New strategies were constantly evolving, even years after the game came out.
That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. So sorry if you can't hack it.
Darkarbiter
12-08-2006, 14:08
I find it incredulous people are complaining about things like cav charges being overpowered when the "perfect charge" telegraphs itself 10 years before it actually hits - which makes it easily managed. And I also happen to dislike the fact that MTW/VI MP had cookie-cutter armies. MTW2 vastly improves on this by making a large variety of builds feasible with distinct elements to each.
The best generals could adapt. Hannibal is one of the best examples of this. His army was constantly changing and he was good at determining how to utilize the strength and weakness of the soldiers he had available.
MTW/VI games against top caliber players often came down to spreadsheets, mth and the random number generator behind the scenes. Good players rarely let themselves get flanked and often had the exact same builds which resulted in one army engage a clone of itself, down to the last unit. The winner was determined by the flip of a coin (teammates aside). I remember many battles being determined by where in my infantry line I placed my one V3 CMAA. Left side? Right side? Center?... combined with where the first cavalry scrum took place. Wow! That required a lot of tactical thinking... except not.
MTW2 MP is much harder than MTW/VI. It's way more dynamic and to be good, it requires that you adapt quickly, on the fly. This is what made Starcraft so popular. You couldn't watch 10 replays and figure out the game. New strategies were constantly evolving, even years after the game came out.
That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. So sorry if you can't hack it.
Now I think thats a bit of an overstatement. M2TW isnt exactly that dynamic... yet
Jinnigan
12-09-2006, 02:43
Now I think thats a bit of an overstatement. M2TW isnt exactly that dynamic... yet
Only because everyone constantly plays "Grassy Plains," though. Of course there's only going to be one good strategy if you only use one map.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-09-2006, 05:33
Any Map is Fair m8..I fought Good Castle game from clans like SA and Hunters, Good Forest games from clans like Hell, and good Hilly games from clans like The brotherhood and VKC, and I hate how people say Hills and castles and forests are for new players, and are boring. No they are not,my god. you need to use good tatics, and it will become good,rather or not if you win or not..
Any Map is Fair m8..I fought Good Castle game from clans like SA and Hunters, Good Forest games from clans like Hell, and good Hilly games from clans like The brotherhood and VKC, and I hate how people say Hills and castles and forests are for new players, and are boring. No they are not,my god. you need to use good tatics, and it will become good,rather or not if you win or not..
That was Jinn's point...
ElmarkOFear
12-10-2006, 06:11
The same happened in STW and also MTW. Whenever you get an influx of new players, they do not see beyond what they perceive as "fair".
In STW, everyone complained that it was a big disadvantage for the attacker. Fearful Ways was the first clan to actively prove this incorrect by ALWAYS playing as the attacker. Then it was said that it was a big disadvantage to have to attack big hilly maps. Fearful Ways then began attacking on the biggest, hilliest maps out there. Once it was proven that good players could find a way to win on any map, everyone began playing all the different maps. Though tournaments have historically used the flatest most featureless maps for their battles.
In MTW, this discussion was had in the forums by new players, but the already established clans were playing all the maps as attackers and winning, so the complaints stopped very quickly.
RTW: I don't think the maps were hilly enough to garner any complaints, but I wouldn't know since I sold my game back the first week.
M2TW: The reason I mentioned way back to STW/MTW was to show the best way to get players to play all the maps: Begin playing them yourself and encourage all of your teammates/clan members to do so as well. Play only one map until you become expert at it. Then show others the map doesn't really make much difference if good teamwork is used. The only time it comes into play is if you have players of equal skill, but this is more rare than you think or some would admit! hehe
Unfortunately, with my old PCs I can no longer host 3v3 or 4v4 games without major lag. Even 2v2 give me problems most times. So it is up to those of you who have good connections and good PCs to host different maps and to play with different settings.
As for cav being overpowered: Some ARE for their given cost. Some very cheap unarmored light cav units have the charge killing power of heavily armored, much more expensive, knight units, even though the unarmored cav have much lower charge values. Being able to avoid such charges when they are telegraphed is not really the point. The point is more; cheap unarmored cav being as effective as the more expensive Knight units. THIS is what is unbalancing the game, more than the more heavy epensive cav units. Unarmored cav should not kill on contact as many men as the heavily armored knight cav. It is the unarmored, cheap cav units which are overpowered.
Darkarbiter
12-10-2006, 09:07
The same happened in STW and also MTW. Whenever you get an influx of new players, they do not see beyond what they perceive as "fair".
In STW, everyone complained that it was a big disadvantage for the attacker. Fearful Ways was the first clan to actively prove this incorrect by ALWAYS playing as the attacker. Then it was said that it was a big disadvantage to have to attack big hilly maps. Fearful Ways then began attacking on the biggest, hilliest maps out there. Once it was proven that good players could find a way to win on any map, everyone began playing all the different maps. Though tournaments have historically used the flatest most featureless maps for their battles.
In MTW, this discussion was had in the forums by new players, but the already established clans were playing all the maps as attackers and winning, so the complaints stopped very quickly.
RTW: I don't think the maps were hilly enough to garner any complaints, but I wouldn't know since I sold my game back the first week.
M2TW: The reason I mentioned way back to STW/MTW was to show the best way to get players to play all the maps: Begin playing them yourself and encourage all of your teammates/clan members to do so as well. Play only one map until you become expert at it. Then show others the map doesn't really make much difference if good teamwork is used. The only time it comes into play is if you have players of equal skill, but this is more rare than you think or some would admit! hehe
Unfortunately, with my old PCs I can no longer host 3v3 or 4v4 games without major lag. Even 2v2 give me problems most times. So it is up to those of you who have good connections and good PCs to host different maps and to play with different settings.
As for cav being overpowered: Some ARE for their given cost. Some very cheap unarmored light cav units have the charge killing power of heavily armored, much more expensive, knight units, even though the unarmored cav have much lower charge values. Being able to avoid such charges when they are telegraphed is not really the point. The point is more; cheap unarmored cav being as effective as the more expensive Knight units. THIS is what is unbalancing the game, more than the more heavy epensive cav units. Unarmored cav should not kill on contact as many men as the heavily armored knight cav. It is the unarmored, cheap cav units which are overpowered.
Ouch you missed out on all the good mods!
Interesting story though. Thats what good clans are about! Havent seen anything as chivalric in my days of RTW MP (although i only play RTR and NTW2 and for the most part no one cares about the map)
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