vovanmix
11-26-2006, 13:04
The reasons to multiply russian factions:
1)Realism and the united country
As MOD name is Total Realism, we must follow the realistic facts. And the facts are that united Kiev Rus was at that times only on the paper - every powerfull prince provides his own politics, including wars with neighbours and with each other.
(It's strange why the nominal part of HRE Bohemia is represented in the game, and nominally parts of Kiev Rus are not! Or there are any big difference between HRE and Kiev Rus as a countries? I see no such things!)
The map of Rus' in the middle of XI (http://www.ostu.ru/personal/nikolaev/rus11.html)
Quote from main facts of russian history in the middle of XI:
"Division of the Kiev Russia on six destinies between Jaroslav's successors - Kiev, Chernigov, Pereyaslavl, Smolensk, Volynsk and Polotsk (was independent already at Jaroslav), formation Chernigov and Monomax houses of the Yaroslav's successors, branch of Red Russia (Land Galitskoj) where ruled descendants of senior son Jaroslav the Wise - Vladimir Novgorodski"
"After Jaroslav's death in 1054 three its seniors of the son have divided Russia into three parts. To Izjaslav goes Kiev and Novgorod, to Svyatoslav - Chernigov, to Vsevolod - Pereyaslavl, Rostov and Suzdal. Two younger brothers seniors have discharged of a management of the country, and after their death - Vyacheslav in 1057, Igor - in 1060, - have appropriated their possession. Adult sons died have not received from the uncle anything, becoming Princes-derelicts."
So, Polotsk must be independent, but in case of it's territory and no alone history it can be Rebell.
The official date of division - 1132 - is just formal - date of death of the last good Kiev Knyaz Mstislav.
People of that times didn't know Rus' as a country - only principalities, if u don't belive look russian chronicles(Letopisi)! Rus was only the Land where they lives.
2)Future
Russia was defeated by mongols in main case of it's division - no one prince had come with help to other. The divide of Rus' started in 1054 - before the game starts - and was oficially formed in 1132. To stop this process in 1066 was unreal - it can't do even very talently ruler Vladimir II Monomach. And if game will start with united Rus', how can it fall apart with 100% chance?
3)A historical chance
Novgorod was very divided to other russian lands, it was never fight against Horde, it had it's independent policy, often hostile to other russian cities. Novgorod provides colonization of northern regions, include most part of Finland, and had it's own wars against sweden and germans. So, Novgorod had a destiny very different to other russian lands. Maybe, it can became a new slavic independent country. Positions of Catholics there was very strong because of trade. Moscow Knyases saw a great danger in Novgorod and fighted with them in XV cen.
Novgorod had a chanse to become a new independent slavic country in medieval times - and this mod will not give it to him. WHY MUST WE GIVE A CHANCE OF INDEPENDENCE TO SERBIA, BULGARIA, CONQUERED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME, IF WE WILL NOT GIVE THIS CHANCE TO NOVGOROD, WHICH WAS STAY INDEPENDENT, WITH UNIQUE CULTURE OF REPUBLIC, EVEN IN EARLY 1500s?
4)The hardness
The destiny of Rus' was very hard, much harder then of France of England. It must to fight to each other, against Mongols, German invaders and Lithuanians! Could Lithuanians conquer half of the united Rus'?? Of cource no! Could Great Kiev Knyaz save his country united? NO, IT WAS REALLY DIVIDED AT THAT TIMES! All taste of playing russians is the competition between factions in the purpose to unite the country! The game for russians will be one of the most interesting in this game - because of it's hardness! What made russians in medieval times most of all? Fight with each other! The game without it will be not interesting, as a game without crusades!
P.S.Game is not only in XI..
In that case we must don't forget Moscow and Vladimir! As this towns were not just founded in 1066, it must be a little trading posts -but in the middle of the game they will become a big centers of russian civilisation! In XI on the territory of Moscow were some villages, so it will be realistic.
My offer:
To make three principalities - Kievan (including Novgorod), Pereyaslavl and Suzdal(or Chernigov). As the same
If russia stay united it will be unhistorical and not interesting to play! There will be no balance between west with many-many factions and lonely east!
I'm awaiting u'r thoughts and offers!:smile:
1)Realism and the united country
As MOD name is Total Realism, we must follow the realistic facts. And the facts are that united Kiev Rus was at that times only on the paper - every powerfull prince provides his own politics, including wars with neighbours and with each other.
(It's strange why the nominal part of HRE Bohemia is represented in the game, and nominally parts of Kiev Rus are not! Or there are any big difference between HRE and Kiev Rus as a countries? I see no such things!)
The map of Rus' in the middle of XI (http://www.ostu.ru/personal/nikolaev/rus11.html)
Quote from main facts of russian history in the middle of XI:
"Division of the Kiev Russia on six destinies between Jaroslav's successors - Kiev, Chernigov, Pereyaslavl, Smolensk, Volynsk and Polotsk (was independent already at Jaroslav), formation Chernigov and Monomax houses of the Yaroslav's successors, branch of Red Russia (Land Galitskoj) where ruled descendants of senior son Jaroslav the Wise - Vladimir Novgorodski"
"After Jaroslav's death in 1054 three its seniors of the son have divided Russia into three parts. To Izjaslav goes Kiev and Novgorod, to Svyatoslav - Chernigov, to Vsevolod - Pereyaslavl, Rostov and Suzdal. Two younger brothers seniors have discharged of a management of the country, and after their death - Vyacheslav in 1057, Igor - in 1060, - have appropriated their possession. Adult sons died have not received from the uncle anything, becoming Princes-derelicts."
So, Polotsk must be independent, but in case of it's territory and no alone history it can be Rebell.
The official date of division - 1132 - is just formal - date of death of the last good Kiev Knyaz Mstislav.
People of that times didn't know Rus' as a country - only principalities, if u don't belive look russian chronicles(Letopisi)! Rus was only the Land where they lives.
2)Future
Russia was defeated by mongols in main case of it's division - no one prince had come with help to other. The divide of Rus' started in 1054 - before the game starts - and was oficially formed in 1132. To stop this process in 1066 was unreal - it can't do even very talently ruler Vladimir II Monomach. And if game will start with united Rus', how can it fall apart with 100% chance?
3)A historical chance
Novgorod was very divided to other russian lands, it was never fight against Horde, it had it's independent policy, often hostile to other russian cities. Novgorod provides colonization of northern regions, include most part of Finland, and had it's own wars against sweden and germans. So, Novgorod had a destiny very different to other russian lands. Maybe, it can became a new slavic independent country. Positions of Catholics there was very strong because of trade. Moscow Knyases saw a great danger in Novgorod and fighted with them in XV cen.
Novgorod had a chanse to become a new independent slavic country in medieval times - and this mod will not give it to him. WHY MUST WE GIVE A CHANCE OF INDEPENDENCE TO SERBIA, BULGARIA, CONQUERED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME, IF WE WILL NOT GIVE THIS CHANCE TO NOVGOROD, WHICH WAS STAY INDEPENDENT, WITH UNIQUE CULTURE OF REPUBLIC, EVEN IN EARLY 1500s?
4)The hardness
The destiny of Rus' was very hard, much harder then of France of England. It must to fight to each other, against Mongols, German invaders and Lithuanians! Could Lithuanians conquer half of the united Rus'?? Of cource no! Could Great Kiev Knyaz save his country united? NO, IT WAS REALLY DIVIDED AT THAT TIMES! All taste of playing russians is the competition between factions in the purpose to unite the country! The game for russians will be one of the most interesting in this game - because of it's hardness! What made russians in medieval times most of all? Fight with each other! The game without it will be not interesting, as a game without crusades!
P.S.Game is not only in XI..
In that case we must don't forget Moscow and Vladimir! As this towns were not just founded in 1066, it must be a little trading posts -but in the middle of the game they will become a big centers of russian civilisation! In XI on the territory of Moscow were some villages, so it will be realistic.
My offer:
To make three principalities - Kievan (including Novgorod), Pereyaslavl and Suzdal(or Chernigov). As the same
If russia stay united it will be unhistorical and not interesting to play! There will be no balance between west with many-many factions and lonely east!
I'm awaiting u'r thoughts and offers!:smile: