Can you explain - spearwall bonus?

[tootee]

Do you find that the spearwall bonus is too high?

Landsknecht pikemen at 350 florins with an attack 11 defence 4 men 75, just standing there without charging, facing the best swordmen like English armoured swordmen which cost 610 florins with an attack 13 defence 22 charge 3 men 60, can easily absorb their charge (losing average 10 to 15 men), and thereafter trash the swordmen.

The two units are attacking frontally.

I upgraded these swordmen to valour 2, and still unable to beat the Landsknecht pikemen..

Without forming spearwall, these pikemen fought with swords, they died at rate expected from their base stat.

[Kenchi_Sulla]

Simple: Yes they are to strong. They should receive the spearwall bonus vs cavalry but NOT vs armoured infantry. Cheap pikes are unbreakable from the front and still very flexible. It should be altered.

[UglyandHasty]

I agree. In a couple of games, i took 5-6 cheap pike militia, and even at valor 0, they hold their ground pretty good. Even versus late sword units.

[Kronos]

They're very similar to rtw phalanxes in that when charged head on only the best infantry can break them when stationary, however there's many ways to break the best spartan box for all the ppl wo r experts at rtw it's a peice of cake:yes:

But for anyone who only played MTW and/or STW u'll need to learn it.

[YellowMelon]

They are a bit decieving in the selection screen, and they seem more powerful than RTW. Units that can spearwall gain a huge stat increase both def and att...until we unpack the data we won't know how much and whether they are too cheap or not. But right now they look odd when a unit has 12/12 and plays significantly better than their abilities (despite their price being lofty).

[Kronos]

Yes they are a bit decieving in that regard, but only when stationary, so someone could move around them and attack especially as it takes them ages to reform. Alot of other units i've found a bit decieving as well tho, even tho they're cheaper and from the same era as another unit (such as varangians and fuedal knights) the varangians performed alot worse than they should of done.
Varangians being 20 15 with ap, and fuedal knights something like 11 21.
This however was just in 1 battle so i'd have to see in a unit vs unit comparison how they'd do.

[tootee]

Simple: Yes they are to strong. They should receive the spearwall bonus vs cavalry but NOT vs armoured infantry. Cheap pikes are unbreakable from the front and still very flexible. It should be altered.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28weapon%29
, historically swordmen could hardly break a pike in formation frontally.


imo some pike units' cost need to be revised.. i mean, the cost of training these pikemen to fight effectively should be reasonably high?

i think the pikemen is realistic and ok; it is deadly vs other non-pike and cav when used right. they do fight quite bad once switched to sword or off spearwall.

i think the pike unit


* should take longer time to form spear wall after running to a spot
* cannot form spear wall once it get into melee with enemy?
* should cost more for Landsknechts (and likes); they were german imitate of the Swiss, and yet cost almost the same as Flemings (who were urban militia? i assumed they received less training than professional soldiers?)

[Monarch]

Gut instinct no, because currently (although it seems to change every other day) on high my fave faction is france, so I'm loving those flemish pikeman :beam:

As I've played them quite a bit I will point out, unlike RTW's phalanxes they lack shields, I've found them extremely vulnerable to missiles.

However I agree they are alot better it seems than I expected.

[Kronos]

Ye Monarch that was one of the many rtw tactics that beat phalaxes, also a few more are concentrating on 1 point and breaking through which completely disrupts the entire line, also splitting ur inf and going around the side so they have to reform which takes them ages (plus the person needs good micro skills).

Also has ayone noticed how long the spearwall units take to get into a spearwall effectively? it's bloody ages and i've been caught off guard a few time when moving and getting rushed b4 i could refor them.

[][GERUDO][Mojoman]

yeah they are very similar to RTW phalanxes, but not half as powerful imo....
it takes on average at least 5 seconds for a pike phalanx to turn around while in formation, wheras in RTW, a sacred band unit could swivel around in under a second, while still in combat and destroy a unit of cavalry trying to rear charge them....

[Massi]

historically, I think to recall two handed swords were effective angainst pikes, they could just break them. Axes might similar.

I did not myself, did anybody try to break a pike formation with 2-handed swords units? the test should be done with units of same cost, of course.

But then there is anyway the problem that there are only few factions with 2-handed swords....

[Cheetah]

Yes, I did some custom battles: two handed swords did fine but axemen were terrible. In general two handed swords did the best vs pikemen, better than venitian heavy inf, all kind of dismounted knights, all kind of axemen.

The problem is that the pikemen will beat your dismounted knights/ axemen even if they are out of formation, i.e. even when they are fighting with only swords. To me it seems that they are just as strong out of formation as if they were in formation. Not sure though, needs more testing ...

[Sephriel]

have you ever tried to break into a pike-/halberd formation? ...its nearly impossible (speaking with experience from so called larp (=live action roleplay), where stabbing is forbidden, making such a formation even less effective) the only vulnerable point of a pike formation is its side and rear. and when it tries to move fast.

the bad points about this kind of formations are a long time to get into formation (especially for badly trained units), its weakness against prjectiles (since those formations were having no shields and were in formation terribly slow)

to the training of these: with only one afternoon of training you can make a proper working pike formation out of bloody peasants ;) , especially as you dont nedd to do anything other than bluntly keeping the pointy side of your pike faced towards the enemy and trying not to fall out of line.

to the 2 handed swordsmen: in deed, this was, for mercenary bands, probably the most common way to face pikemen. but it was a job with high risk, for you tried to slay away the enemy pikes (spear and pike shafts abve a certain height move only very slowly and inertially and bend towards the ground), then closing in through the gap and trying to break the enemy formation in killing as much of the (mostly for close combat rather badly equipped and badly trained) pikemen, which were handicapped thorugh there long pikes which you can't really throw away in such a thight formation. those 2 handed swordsman got usually the doubled pay for they had doubled risk of getting killed. but you shouldnt imagine them as formations of 2 handers but rather like a handful of man accompagnying a pikeformation to help in case of facing another pike formation.
imagining them in the total war engine they were probably the most like the wardogs of rome, for each units of 75 pikemen having 5-10 of those 2 handers which would charge in fighting another pikemen unit.


given the total war engine, i think pikemen are about the most realistic they could have been made. they were cheap and very effective - and in fact, they did replace the heavy infantry over the years - in the 30 years war you see only pike formations, firearm formations, cavalry and artillery - heavy infantry has mostly disappeared from the european battlefields. even in sieges armies wouldnt try storming the walls with heavy infantry but rather bombing the walls into the ground as cannons got more and more effective.

to deal with such a formation, i'd either try to kill them with ranged attacks or try binding them with a tough heavy infantry unit (as pikemen dont kill fast - their pikes are just too unhandy) and flanking them - especially those militia pikemen which are extremely cheap for the effectiveness use to have low morale (cavalry charge from flanks or rear and goodbye ;) )

a pike formation defending a breached gateis though rather overpowered in total war as the ranged attacks cant shoot through those breached gates, afaik.

halberds are actually quite similar to pikes. they are not quite as effective in deep formations but are a great deal more handy and are very effective in 1 to 1 combat, where the pike is about useless.

those are mostly experienced i've made in larp, which is not absolutely realistic itself, for you may not stab with your weapons as sthat would be too dangerous.

cheers,
sephriel

edit: breaking formation, a pike unit would be as good as dead for their meelee skill and equipment is about zero. you're right, this is not implemented well in medieval 2...

[Massi]

one bad thing of them pikes is they are so SLOW
they are nasty, but I am not sure they are really over powered

[Cheetah]

The problem is not that pikes in formation will beat anything but that pikes out of formation will beat almost anything just as easily.

[Sephriel]

well, actually, i gotta try this out (i have actually avoided fighting with pikes out of formation, so i have not really had a look on this matter ;) )