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econ21
12-01-2006, 23:55
This is the current out of character thread for the Will of the Senate. Please use this thread for all out of character discussion and keep the others free for role-play and stories.

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The Civil War - overview

Civil war has broken out in the Republic, between the Senate and and the Consul. I will be playing out the war on the campaign map, according to orders received from players about what they want their avatars to do. I will try to delay battle on the campaign map for a while to allow forces to be amassed.

I will be working from the latest savegame in the uploader:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/250-spr-Tib3.zip

Urgent - if you have not already done so, please give me any orders you have for the first two turns and any general directions for your character (e.g. they want to march on Rome or kill Numerius or whatever).

Try to check the Throne room for updates every day just in case there is something that requires your attention.

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Battle mechanics

When rival avatars meet, a battle will be fought in a manner to be mutually agreed by the participants. It could be multiplayer; it could be via orders to an umpire (I volunteer); it could be by setting up a matching AI vs AI battle; or it could be by "mirrored" battles against the AI (whoever does better, wins). Different methods could be used for different battles, according to the preferences of those directly involved.

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Campaign mechanics

I don't want to get bogged down in rules and mechanics, but a few pointers to guide your orders:

1) Only Italy has significant troop building facilities. Whoever controls it, should ultimately win.

2) Loyalty of armies not under avatars will be determined by some random mechanic modified by the influence and proximity of rival generals. Blood ties will also come into play.

3) Control of fleets will be important, especially for those in Afrika. Loyalty of fleets will be determined similarly to loyalty of armies but I will try to make sure no one is stranded and unable to have at least a chance of getting to Italy.

4) The war will be over when all generals on one side are dead or surrender.

5) This PBM may live on after the war, so if you want to build bridges for a future life for your character (especially if they seem to be on the losing side) feel free to do so.

6) Obviously, strength of armies on the campaign map will be reflected in however battles are decided - they won't necessarily be fair fights. However, I will try to keep things at least initially balanced, so we get a "good war".

7) If I do not receive directions or orders, I will generally leave your avatar inactive unless there is some extremely obvious move he should make (e.g. flee a stronger enemy or get more men). Make sure you tell me if you want your character to be inactive (e.g. he's staying neutral for a while).

8) To keep things simple, and focussed on the players, only player generals (and admirals) can be ordered to move. I will move loyal non-player generals to join with player generals if they are within a turn's reach. The exception to this is Quintus Naevius, who Lucjan persuaded me to let him control. At the time, it looked like he might be hopelessly outnumbered after the impeachment, so I agreed. It does seem to balance things up pretty well.

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Story-telling and role-playing

Feel free to contribute in-character write-ups to the Civil war stories thread. To make sure things match up with what I am doing on the campaign map, you could PM me with a sketch of what you plan.

I will play along with any juicy plot twists you would like your character to be involved with.

But make sure you do not put words into another player's character's mouth or kill them out of battle without their consent!


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EDIT: I'm going to keep editing this post with additional information, additions being marked in italics. I've made an initial assignment of non-player generals (NPG) to factions in the Civil War Stories thread. The spoiler gives the gory details, but as I said, I don't want to get into mechanics too much.


If any NPG was in a turn's reach of a player general, they took a test of allegiance. Rolled a six sided dice. 1 = Consular, 6 = Senate.

Modified by (Senate influence - Consular influence +/- Blood tie)/2
where influence is that of any player general within one turn's reach or 1/2 influence if within two turns reach.
Blood tie is a 10 point modifier for if the NPG has a father or son in one faction.

A roll of "1" or "6" stands, regardless of modifiers.

Lucjan
12-02-2006, 00:55
This is going to be interesting. The division of players with legions is pretty good.

New Republicans (6)- Servius Aemilius, Manius Coruncanius, Quintus Libo, Quintus Naevius, Oppius Aemilius, Flavius Pacuvius

The Old Senate (5)- Numerious Aureolus, Appius Barbetus, Tiberius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius, Marcellus Aemilius

GeneralHankerchief
12-02-2006, 01:41
Hmm, seems as if look of the Old Senate fighters is a mixed blessing. On one hand, we have the two Old Farts of the Republic, Lucius and Tiberius, who have massive command/influence. On the other hand, they could both decide to keel over and die of natural causes at the wrong time.

Best of luck to everybody. :bow:

TinCow
12-02-2006, 01:52
The Library has been updated with all important information. I haven't bothered with the general family tree or the multi-shot Roman territorial bit, since they seem irrelevant at this point.

Death the destroyer of worlds
12-02-2006, 14:43
Hmm, seems as if look of the Old Senate fighters is a mixed blessing. On one hand, we have the two Old Farts of the Republic, Lucius and Tiberius, who have massive command/influence. On the other hand, they could both decide to keel over and die of natural causes at the wrong time.
Best of luck to everybody. :bow:

I'm also worried about death due to age, but on the other hand I and Tiberius have some serious command skill.

EDIT :

Bummer about the pirates, Wonderland.
Econ21, it would be nice if the senate would command some ships. All the fleets seem to be assigned to Servius.

Lucjan
12-02-2006, 14:57
Actually...fleets seem to have swung like this.

New Republic
Servius (fleet at Narbo)
Oppius (fleet at Tingi)

Senate
Marcellus (Fleet south of Sicily)


Fleet near Asia Minor is most likely still up in the air. They're a new fleet, but also the smallest and with no relations with any of the generals yet, probably waiting to see the initial victor in Asia Minor before making any decisions. That's just my take on the situation though, Econ is the one in charge of determining actual AI loyalties.

Mount Suribachi
12-02-2006, 16:29
Simon, just a thought about recruitment of troops, in that, do we really want to do it? It just makes things more messy and complicated. I would be much more in favour of a fight were everyone has their own legions, and thats it. Last one standing wins!

econ21
12-02-2006, 19:33
I think recruitment adds something - it means that who controls Rome really matters, as it should historically. Plus the starting armies - detailed in the jpg - were somewhat arbitrary. Recruitment should allow generals to get close to a full stack, if there are mercs available or they break into Italy.

On the fleets, I did the loyalty test thing I put in the spoiler and as you might expect, it turned out the fleets were loyal to the nearest influential general - basically west went Consular and east went Senate.

I'm going to play more tonight - still have not finished the first turn. I may not answer every PM, as I was finding I spent more time answering than playing, but I will read them.

Braden
12-02-2006, 21:45
@ TinCow,

Is that some veiled suggestion in the Library? (i.e. updating "my" Manius's picture with Manius the Mad's)

:dizzy2:

Funny though....

TinCow
12-02-2006, 23:02
Sorry, I didn't notice I had posted the wrong one. Fixed now.

Dutch_guy
12-02-2006, 23:14
Well, GeneralH, that's one heck of story you wrote !

Good job, really.

:bow:

:balloon2:

econ21
12-03-2006, 00:22
A quick out of character update on the situation at the end of the first turn of the civil war. This is mainly for story writing purposes - I don't feel I need orders for turn 2 as nothing too dramatic has happened yet. The main potential action in turn 2 would be Numerius vs Manius, and I suspect Numerius may wimp out on that (I don't want to stop the flow of the war by arranging a battle so quickly).

I am going to focus on the player generals (Qunitus Naevius is an honorary one), as other generals generally do not move independently (except to join a player's army) - with a couple of exceptions (*).


In Iberia and Gaul

Servius and *Quintus Naevius started with no movement points left.

Nor did Quintus Libo who was attacked on a ford by a rock hard Iberian army, which he trounced with significant losses (killed 758, lost 162 but due to churigeons has 916 men left from 1005). I fought this manually as again, I want the war to gather some pace before we stop.


Italy

Luca Mamillus gathered a bunch of Gauls and marched towards Bononia.


Thrace and Greece

Tiberius extracted himself from besieging the Thracian town but had to withdraw south.

The best elements of Lucius's force had no movement points left so he stayed put, feuding with his tribune.

Galerius Vatinius has marched a little distance south.

Cnaeus Caprius has mustered an army near modern day Albania.

Decius Laevinus is preparing to board a ship at Apollonia.


Anatolia

Numerius and Appius Barbatus gathered mercenaries and started to approach each other.

Manius has met up with his son at Ancrya. His *son has an army of Gauls and I am going to allow him to move adjacent to Manius to simulate a supra-Consular sized army.

Secundus Salvius is heading for the straits alone.


Afrika

Marcellus left a couple of Numidian skirmishers to take Lepcis Magna and smashed a rebel force blocking the coastal road to Thapsus. Admiral Appius has met up with him.

Flavius Pacuvius is heading north-east to Carthage.

Oppius has borded a nearby fleet.

econ21
12-03-2006, 03:55
OK, I got through another turn - almost - but could not avoid a battle between us. The civil war stories thread explains why.

The battle is a four way - Numerius + Appius vs Manius + his son. I make it 2457 vs 2488, with no clear advantage in quality to either side that I can make out.

So, Braden, Tamur and I have to figure out how we are going to resolve this:

Option 1: Some variant of multiplayer. We could even hack the EDU file to get units that exactly match those in the battle. Or, given that it seems a "fair" fight, we could just have some equal abstract army (my preference would be 4 identical "historical" Consular armies as laid down in the FAQ) - or One Consular + one Praetorian a side.
Pros: most exciting option; could be a laugh; player MP skill will have some role.
Cons: might be tricky to pull off in practical tems; player MP skill will be paramount (could be horribly embarassing for some of us)


Option 2: Custom battle, AI vs AI. This is my preferred option. Again, I could hack the EDU to exactly replicate the armies. Then, I could set up a 5 way battle (2 vs 2 + me controlling only 1 unit and acting as an observer). I could take screenshots of the battle and write it up in character. This is close to what I did to get the write-up of Publius at the Masilia ford:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1202379&postcount=22
Pros: Fairly quick and easy; should produce a good battle report; would be interesting to see how the fates deal with our characters.
Cons:: Non-interactive; and our skill as players has no impact on the outcome.


Option 3: A mirrored custom battle, each of us vs the AI. The outcome could be the average result.
Pros: Fairly quick and easy; our skill as SP players will have an impact.
Cons: Harder to produce a coherent story (as we are averaging too stories)


Option 4: A refereed "tabletop" style battle. We give orders to a third party, they resolve the battle based on the orders and some rules or judgements about combat resolution.
Pros: Interactive; not as scarey as MP
Cons: trusting our fate in a referee; could take a lot of time to resolve; with the number of units involved, both giving orders and refereeing is going to be a problem (and, as a participant, I can't help out here).


Braden and Tamur - what's your order of preference among the four options above?

GeneralHankerchief
12-03-2006, 05:24
econ, would you mind posting the latest savegame? I think we all want to see how the positions have changed.

EDIT: Thanks, Dutch_guy. If it sways certain Senators then even better. :wink:

Dooz
12-03-2006, 10:22
Oo, I'm liking option 2. That sounds fun, which may sound weird given we don't actually do anything, but I think it's the most practical and fair one out of anything else. If votes count, mine goes for that one :2thumbsup: .

econ21
12-03-2006, 11:35
OK, the latest savegame is here:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/250-sum-end.zip

Things may start to get more tactical now, as armies get withing striking range of each other. But given that we will be fighting some battles, which will take time to work out logistically, there should be more time to give your orders.

I think I have the basic orders I need from everyone to move them into action, but PM me if you have any changes or want to add any nuances based on the savegame.

But bear in mind you can only give orders for your avatar and his army (and any fleets). If you have more than 20 units, you can drag a second stack behind you to simulate a massive combined force. But you cannot give orders to other generals or unled units. I am playing it that unled units can be "picked up" by passing player generals and that other generals act in simple ways (usually marching to the sound of the guns) if they pass a loyalty test.

We may have sucked the map dry of mercenaries for now, so they could be less of an issue. I am keeping track of the loyalty of the Italian troop-producing towns. Appius Egnatius is recruiting for the Consul. The settlements Luca and Decius take are recruiting for the Senate. With the approach of Luca, Rome has declared for the Senate.

Avicenna
12-03-2006, 11:39
Mmm.. I get my own mini-fleet! Is Luca Mamilius in the same faction as me?

econ21
12-03-2006, 11:44
Mmm.. I get my own mini-fleet!

Yes, of one ship! (You could ask me to build you more, though - might be an idea if you need to flee Italy.)


Is Luca Mamilius in the same faction as me?

Yes, you are best mates. IIRC, he's in Arretium and you in Capua - you were both racing for Rome. He has collected a mob of Gallic mercenaries (our Gallic campaigns have rather prejudiced me against these guys). You picked up a few Italian mercs. You are now desperately scrambling to rally true Romans to the flag before Servius lands with a Consular-sized Consular army.


Oo, I'm liking option 2. That sounds fun, which may sound weird given we don't actually do anything, but I think it's the most practical and fair one out of anything else. If votes count, mine goes for that one.

I agree completely. I guess it's basically an autoresolve but with screenshots.

Dutch_guy
12-03-2006, 12:40
EDIT: Thanks, Dutch_guy. If it sways certain Senators then even better. :wink:

You gotta be kidding me, I have elephants you know :wink:

:balloon2:

SwordsMaster
12-03-2006, 14:59
Mwhahaa! Rome is ours!

econ21
12-03-2006, 15:42
Let's keep the Civil War stories thread clear of out of character stuff.

I am deleting the out of character stuff and putting it here:


(OOC - Umm..excuse me swordmaster? Accusing Servius of ordering poisoning assassinations and burning down other senators estates? I can't agree with this at all, it's not in Servius's nature and such an order would never be given. I have to ask that these things be changed. You can't speak or make actions for another player's character no matter how you or your character may feel about the situation. Servius may now be at war with the senate, but he has never and would never order assassinations like this. On the contrary he's taken steps to protect families of his friends who requested it, fearing they might be targeted this way. I have to ask that you not presume to make actions for my character and change your story to remove these acts.)


Swordsmaster may be you can change your wording to refer to the Consul's faction rather than the Consul personally? I think there will be rogue (or rougher - e.g. Cnaeus) elements on both sides (ask Vladimir Putin, or may be better not :sweatdrop: ). The Senate faction players did not cry foul when Decius Curtius planned to butcher Manius's family on their behalf. ~:grouphug:


I didn't mean it offensively, and I didn't make your character order the assassination, I just said that the slave said you did. Anyway, I have a nice little plot in mind that I will (hopefully) develop if i have the time.

As of the Consul's faction.... I just couldn't think of a better sounding sinonymous. Consul's faction sounds very artificial, but if someone makes up some other name, like nationalists, or imperialists, or something along the lines, I'll be happy to change it. Consulists just sounds wrong.:laugh4:

Braden
12-03-2006, 21:40
Ok, Econ21,

Personally, I hate leaving anything to the AI so "to me" option one is my least preferred.

I'm ok with using a full-on MP battle (with you as observer), although having ZERO experience and the fact we havent tested RTR on this.

I'm ok with this option as it means most hands on control from me - some of my single player results are due to some "unusual" moves I sometimes employ which an AI just would not replicate.

Option three I feel is the worse option - would it be a matter of who tallies up the most AI casualties?

Option Four - at this time, and not knowing how to conduct a MP battle, is my favoured and I do trust you Econ as a Ref for this. However, if it was to be truly interactive, we'd have to agree a time space just like a normal MP wouldn't we so both players had the chance to issue and change orders on the fly?

econ21
12-04-2006, 02:22
OK, so Braden, I take it your preference ordering is:

4>2>3>1

Is that right?

I guess mine is:

1>4>3>2

I recall Tamur expressed interest in the umpired game, so let's work on that assumption.

After giving it some thought, I think we should follow the KISS approach - keep it simple stupid. So, I propose the following:


To resolve the battle

1. I will umpire the battle but not participate. Tamur will act as both Numerius and Appius, controlling all the Senate forces. Braden will control all the Consular ones. (No other players should advise them or communicate with them during the battle.)

2. I have cut and paste all the icons of the units onto a word document.http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/ancrya.zip
Each player should copy the icons of their units into Microsoft Paint and arrange them in his order of battle. They will then save the file, zip it and upload it. I will put the two together to show the intial battle deployment and upload it.

3. We will abstract from terrain - it's a level playing field. Fine viisibility and weather. Fatigue will be a factor though - best keep a fresh reserve for late day.

4. There will then be 6 turns:
- advance to contact (1) - Wed
- mid-morning (2) - Th
- late morning (3) - Fri
- early afternoon (4) - Sat
- late afternoon (5) - Sun
- evening (6) - Mon
At the start of each turn, each player will use Paint to mark his planned maneouvres and send me any accompanying notes.

5. Players should act like historical armies and not try to micro-manage too much. Orders may get lost and things may slip up. The position of the 4 generals will be particularly important in determining the outcome of any fine maneouvring - if he is far away or locked in combat, he may not be able to control events. (Best avoid the RTW bad habit of using your general as a spearhead.)

6. I will put the orders together. Execution of movement will be simultaneous, so I will work out the result of any clashes arising based on my judgement - informed by common sense, unit stats, history and experience of RTRPE. I will upload an end-turn file showing the state of play together with a brief narrative courtesy of my grad student Jack.

7. We will play out one turn per day of real life. We will have Monday to discuss these proposals and agree procedures. Send me your deployments by Tuesday night and then we will try to get through a turn a day, finishing a week on Monday. I know weekends can be a problem, but we can deal with that if you give me notice.

8. The battle will be decisive. The losers will all be killed or surrender. The winners will take casualties on the campaign map (losing whole units) I deem reasonable given the battle.


Meanwhile on the campaign map, the show goes on

In order not to hold up the entire Civil War, I propose that Manius, Numerius, Appius and Manius's son be moved on the campaign map as a "blob" toward Rome. When we do finally resolve the battle, I will remove the defeated two stacks and the victor's casualties so that only one half of the blob (Senate or Consular) reaches Rome. Is this ok, Braden? Certainly Numerius would have dashed for Rome after beating Manius and I assume vice-versa. Given the distances, I suspect the Civil War will be resolved before the Easterners get to Rome.

When we get to a more central battle, the blob mechanic would not be sensible. But with such a battle, the participants might prefer a quicker way of resolving the battle or we might be happy to wait a week for the result.

Personally, I think MP battles or AI vs AI custom battles would be best if we end up having a lot of them. But given Braden and Tamur favoured the umpired mechanic, and this is the one and only civil war battle that at least one of them will fight, I am happy to give it a try.

Tamur
12-04-2006, 06:30
Just a end-of-weekend note to say I've read through the rules you outlined.

I agree that this should not become the standard way to resolve the battles, since it will take a week or so. Then again, if someone gets "knocked out" they could act as judge and so we would run multiple battles simultaneously if it's something people are interested in.

At any rate, what you've outlined sounds good. I will take apart that zip file and get deployment to you sometime tomorrow (Monday).

Tamur *shaking in his boots at having to fight a seasoned table-top gamer!* ~:)

Mount Suribachi
12-04-2006, 12:05
Info on how to go about MP with RTR

http://forums.totalrealism.net/index.php?showtopic=23940

econ21
12-04-2006, 14:21
That post does not sound too promising, Mount - not least because they are talking about RTR Gold rather than Platinum. I think we should not consider MP battles as an option unless two of us have tried it out successfully in a test. (I don't want to hold up the campaign for nothing.)

If we have a really climactic battle, like that going on at Ancrya, then the umpired game is probably worth the trouble.

For smaller or one-sided affairs, I am inclined to go for AI vs AI. At least, it will be quick and fair.

I am open to MP battles but only if the participants can quickly test them first.

Tamur and Braden - if you both can get me deployment orders by tonight, we can advance the schedule by a day.

Mount Suribachi
12-04-2006, 15:12
GAH! I've got a horrible feeling I need to reinstall RTR......

I just can't get the game to start. No matter how I try - shortcut, start menu, insert CD - it won't boot up. CD just spins round for a bit, but no game. Occasionally, maybe 1 in 10, it will go. But right now, no game.

I do wonder if this is related to using the BI exe, as it seems to have happened since I put that in, but not straight away....

Lucjan
12-04-2006, 15:21
Argh...and at such an inoppertune time. I believe I have links for all the necessary downloads if you do need to reinstall it.

econ21
12-04-2006, 18:20
I'm getting an alarming black screen of death crash after exiting RTRPE. I thought it was a problem with RTW, but then loaded the Thracian vanilla PBM save and coul exit fine. Maybe this campaign is trying to tell us something?!

Mount Suribachi
12-04-2006, 18:25
Argh...and at such an inoppertune time. I believe I have links for all the necessary downloads if you do need to reinstall it.

Thanks, but I have most of the files saved my hard drive. Its the several hour install process I can't face..... :embarassed:


Wisdom rallied in a protected glade. Stupidity assailed the lines again, but was repulsed

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Tamur
12-04-2006, 19:30
Wisdom rallied in a protected glade. Stupidity assailed the lines again, but was repulsed

Ha, I laughed at this too. There are some great writers in this group, thanks all for the excellent reading!

Dutch_guy
12-04-2006, 21:11
I'm getting an alarming black screen of death crash after exiting RTRPE. I thought it was a problem with RTW, but then loaded the Thracian vanilla PBM save and coul exit fine. Maybe this campaign is trying to tell us something?!

Memory leak perhaps ? How much RAM are you running currently ?

It that's it, try turning of un necessary programms like Quicktime, or a Virus scan, when playing Rome.

All I can come up with at the moment....

:balloon2:

Braden
12-05-2006, 10:07
Simon,

Quick Note – been off line all weekend and was back very late from University last night so haven’t got this info until today, however, orders will be sent out today to you on email

econ21
12-05-2006, 10:20
OK - no problem; I only need your deployment - ie just arrange those icons in a battle line.

We will then have a "move to contact" turn, where both you and Tamur will give your opening moves which will be executed simultaneously until either of you gets into missile or charge range.

After that, we will have 6 regular turns, where you will be able to give incremental orders. I am going to try to simulate a real ancient battle, so it may take more than a turn for a melee between two lines of heavy infantry to be resolved. A cavalry charge will be resolved more quickly though (and if successful may overrun into other enemy units during the same turn).

I will also impose fatigue penalties, so units that come into the action later in the day will have an edge. A typical unit will only be able to fight for two turns and then be exhausted. Units will not be able to withdraw easily from a melee, except Roman infantry which was apparently practiced that.

Units may be able to change their facing autonomously so if you want a flank attack, make sure you pin the enemy first. Units next to a general may be able to do even more in reaction to an enemy move so make sure you place your general where he needs to be to control things.

econ21
12-05-2006, 18:29
This post is primarily for Braden and Tamur, but I thought I would make it public in case others are curious about how we are going to do this umpired battle.

It would be good if I could have your initial move to contact orders asap - they will likely be only minor tweaks of what you have already given me.

Army "divisions" and how they will work

To simplify this, please give orders only to groups (“division”) of your army. You may have a maximum of 8 “divisions” in your army.

You currently have 6 each and so may create another 2 during the course of the battle by detaching units from existing divisions. It would be foolish to try to re-arrange units locked in melee, though. Your main reserves are probably the best formations to try to break down in new divisions – e.g. if you only want to commit some at a particular time.

However, each general may be given individual orders and need not be in a division. The generals are Numerius, Appius, Manius and son. The Senate Tribune is not a general per se, although his presence in a division may give that division more autonomous capability.

The initial deployment looks like this:

https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/647/ancyradeployzj8.th.jpg (https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ancyradeployzj8.jpg)

Current divisions

Consular – these are the six formations that Braden ringed & labelled in his deployment diagram to me.

I. Battle division - main battle line
II. Light infantry division – slingers and skirmish detachment
III. Command division - generals and equites
IV. Light cavalry division
V. Cavalry reserve division
VI. Reserve division

Senate – I have created these after consolidating some of Tamur’s labelled formations on his diagram.

I. Battle division - main battle line inc. Manius & flanking swords
II. Light infantry division - frontal skirmisher and slinger detachment
III. Second battle division - Numerius + hastati
IV. Cavalry division (to the left)
V. Horse archer detachment
VI. Reserve division


How to draft orders

Please draft your orders in character, as if given by a real general. They should be clear and simple. The more confused or complicated, the more likely the divisional commander will mess up. Ideally, I would like to publish these orders in a battle report (after the battle is concluded – so they will be confidential until then). You may allow for contingencies, but if the orders are too complex, the divisional commander may become confused or feel constrained from acting on his own initiative. You can trust your divisional commanders to execute their orders in a competent way (you don’t need to micromanage them and tell them how to fight – I may let the AI control them to see how a division vs division fight would play out). But they will have limited initiative to respond to new developments.

What orders should cover:
- where to move, inc. facing
- which formation to engage or screen (this will help me determine facing)
- for missiles (inc. pila and javelin armed heavily infantry): whether to fire at will or who to target
- for melee units: whether to charge or prepare to receive a charge
- whether to pursue or hold ground once in place

You should also edit the jpg in Paint to indicate where you would like your units to move (both of you provided much better graphs than my pitiful attempts, so in the edit I just stuck each of yours on top of the other). Remember - movement in the advance to contact turn stops once you are within range.

econ21
12-06-2006, 13:04
OK, orders for turn 2 (mid-morning), please. The situation upon advancing to contact is:

https://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4521/ancyraturn1of0.th.jpg (https://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ancyraturn1of0.jpg)

econ21
12-06-2006, 14:47
To simulate the fog of war, from this point on, I will only provide partial information on the situation to each general as it is appears to them. This will be done in private to Braden and Tamur separately. I will create diagrams for the record, but will not show (bits of) them to the generals unless it is needed to illustrate a tricky point.

Tamur and Braden can of course, send me diagrams to clarify their orders but in reality, I doubt generals would scribble down maps mid-battle so any centurions receiving them may be suitably bemused.

Braden
12-06-2006, 15:24
Maps I'm sending you are for OOC assistance only - a picture tells a thousand words.

FoW - would that now be realistic? both commanders are on the field and as its level ground, they'd have a pretty good idea what's going on.

I think the main thing to consider is the limited scope open to the commanders to relay any adjustments to any orders they gave at the initial advance (or before).

Certainly after melee has begun, anything more complex than "Break contact" or "Withdraw" or "charge" can really only be given to unengaged units that have visual on the commander.

econ21
12-06-2006, 16:31
***********On the campaign ******************

I hope to get in turn 3 (autumn) of the campaign tonight. Any last minute orders, please let me know.

********** On the battle of Ancrya **********************

Just to say I am having e-mail problems today, so if Tamur could use a PM to give his orders, that would be good. I am hoping I can move on to turn 3 of the battle swiftly.

On the realism of fog of war - a general can only see through line of sight. He does not have a helicopter or interactive total war style map laid out. Once the lines have met in combat, I doubt he could see much - particularly on level ground. He would have to use riders to keep in touch with his divisons, but riders can be lost, reports garbled and orders can be misunderstood (think Balaclava).

As I said above:


Players should act like historical armies and not try to micro-manage too much. Orders may get lost and things may slip up. The position of the 4 generals will be particularly important in determining the outcome of any fine maneouvring - if he is far away or locked in combat, he may not be able to control events. (Best avoid the RTW bad habit of using your general as a spearhead.)

(I guess the first sentence should have said "generals" not "armies".)

Braden
12-06-2006, 16:57
Ok Simon,

BTW – I guess now would be a good time to send you some more order then (should cover nearly to the end of the battle, with very minor adjustment by Manius “on the field”).

econ21
12-06-2006, 17:56
OK, I've got both Braden and Tamur's orders - I will get back to you both with the end of turn situation asap. E-mail seems fine now btw. :bow:

econ21
12-06-2006, 21:56
Braden requested a rough depiction of the situation at the end of turn 2. Given that units have not got into melee yet, fog of war is not a serious problem. So both sides can see that the situation looks roughly like this:

https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9813/ancyraturn2rvbu1.th.jpg (https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ancyraturn2rvbu1.jpg)

Please don't ask me to align unit x to fight unit y - I don't think a real Roman general would get into such a level of micromanagement (unless he was adjacent to unit x).

NB: slightly revised diagram from original post.

TinCow
12-06-2006, 22:19
WOO! KICK HIS ASS SEABASS! Er... Numerius.

econ21
12-06-2006, 22:55
Unfortunately, Numerius has gone down with a bad case of stomach cramps so it is all up to his former Tribune, Appius Barbatus to win the day! (It seemed unfair to get Tamur to do all the work and not (potentially at least) get the glory.)

I am hoping Glaucus uploads the savegame tonight as I am keen to play out turn 3 on the campaign map. With Servius making landfall, it's going to get very tactical on turn 4.

Unless the participants can assure me that they have successfully played a multiplayer RTRPE battle, I propose that in future, all "non-critical" battles be resolved in an AI vs AI custom battle. A critical battle will be defined as one where Servius could lose - ie where he does not clearly outmatch his opponent.

If the Ancrya battle works out, the umpired game mechanism could be used for critical battles. But I think we will work on the "reinforcing armies" principle - ie only one stack initially deployed; each other stack comes on - somewhat randomly (1/6 chance first turn, 2/6 chance second turn etc.) This may make the battles a little simpler at first and also add a fun element (when's backup arriving?!?).

If there is a really important battle not involving Servius, I may be persuaded to call it critical but the default position is let the AI call it.

flyd
12-06-2006, 23:39
Well, I wouldn't like to give up on MP without actually trying it, mainly because I'm pretty sure it'll work just fine. Does anyone wish to conduct any tests?

econ21
12-06-2006, 23:45
Well, I wouldn't like to give up on MP without actually trying it, mainly because I'm pretty sure it'll work just fine. Does anyone wish to conduct any tests?

Not to preempt anything, but it looks at least plausible that Tiberius Coruncanius may soon get into a scrap with Quintus Naevius. Does Lucjan want to try out a MP battle with FLYdude? Or some other player on the Consular side?

TinCow
12-07-2006, 00:25
I am not on the Consular side, but I am willing to test out a MP game if needed.

econ21
12-07-2006, 00:46
FLYdude vs TinCow - I think you are both in the US, so maybe you can work something out?

You should be able to fight Roman vs Roman using the first two factions on the custom faction list. (If we do it for real, we'll want to change the EDU to enable recruitment of some of those fun mercs we've been hiring. But for a test, it's unnecessary)

TinCow
12-07-2006, 00:54
I am on EST and am off work Friday through Sunday. Any time you want is good with me FLYdude. Are we using RTRPE 1.6 with the BI.exe?

flyd
12-07-2006, 01:08
Scheduling won't be a problem, I'm off everything for several weeks, except for a few finals next week. So, I'm good to go 24 hours a day, more or less, although I would appreciate it if it wasn't in the early hours of the morning. :laugh4: I'm on MST, which is +2 to EST, and +7 to GMT.

I don't have BI, so I suppose we should stick to 1.5? They might be compatible anyway.

Mount Suribachi
12-07-2006, 07:51
If you can't get MP to work with RTRPE, can't we just fight the battles online using RTW vanilla? The differences on the battle map between the 2 versions for Roman armies shouldn't be that huge........should they?

BTW, great job everyone in the Civil War stories thread, outstanding writing. Guess you got your wish after all Lucjan? ~:)

econ21
12-07-2006, 08:35
If you can't get MP to work with RTRPE, can't we just fight the battles online using RTW vanilla? The differences on the battle map between the 2 versions for Roman armies shouldn't be that huge........should they?

Good idea. I could fairly easily tweak the unit stats of the key Roman units in RTW so that they handle like their RTRPE counterparts. We could also slow down the movement speeds.

But on reflection I am not sure there should be a problem with doing MP on a mod. Aren't some mods - Napoleonic TW - mainly for multiplayer only?

But let's try this: TinCow and FLYdude try to play a multiplayer battle with the mod we are using. If there is a technical problem, they try with just vanilla RTW 1.5. Given we are all new to MP, it would be useful to get their feedback on the practicalities and feel of MP, regardless of whether we can use this mod.

TinCow
12-07-2006, 13:05
No problems with 1.5, I have an install with that version as well. Want to plan on something around noon MST on Saturday? I also run a BF2/BF2142/ETF community and we host a Teamspeak server as well. If you want to use Teamspeak to make setup easier, I can create a private channel for us. That would probably be easier from a troubleshooting aspect.

flyd
12-07-2006, 16:20
Noon saturday is good, teamspeak is fine if you want it.

I suppose I should, at this stage, mention that I'm not entirely new to MP, in that I've played it in vanilla, the first release of RTR 6.0, as well as EB, having no technical issues in any of them. This is why I suspect there won't be an issue.

Lucjan
12-07-2006, 22:10
I'd be willing to practice against anybody Friday Saturday or Sunday, we just need to work out a time.

And Mount, what was my wish? *lost*

econ21
12-08-2006, 11:41
The situation at the end of turn 3 (late morning) of the battle of Ancrya:

https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3971/ancryaturn3jy2.th.jpg (https://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ancryaturn3jy2.jpg)

Note to Braden and Tamur: there may be some light cavalry off to the right of the map, but they are out of command and out of sight.

Another note to the participants - sending me a map of where you would like the units you can control to be at the end of turn 4 would be very useful. However, don't move the Battle Divisions or the Senate Reserve Division - they are committed and after the antics your generals got up to in turn 3, I really can't see them being able to effect any kind of tactical control over them in this turn. The scrummage will be resolved by the end of this turn, however, and then the victors be free to control the survivors.

To the non-participants: apologies for not making progress with the campaign. Resolving this battle is surprisingly time consuming. I hope to play turn 3 of the war on the campaign map this weekend and ideally finish off this battle, so I can move the victor as well and then press "end turn".

Mount Suribachi
12-08-2006, 12:37
And Mount, what was my wish? *lost*

That thing about writing a story with different authors for the differenct characters.

Lucjan
12-08-2006, 13:38
Oh yeah, it happened, just not quite in the manner I had expected it to. Though I am very, very pleased with the incredible story unraveling in the civil war stories thread.

Braden
12-08-2006, 13:40
This is really touch-and-go at the moment!

I can't call who's going to win but what I do know is...

....I really don't believe they'll be much of a victorious army left, whoever leads that army.

(though, potentially not Appius and definately not Manius's adoptive son - RiP)

Tamur
12-08-2006, 14:03
I really don't believe they'll be much of a victorious army left, whoever leads that army.

Oj, it's tense! And with the cause at hand I don't think there will be an easy victory for either side. Whoever wins will have to do a lot of recruiting on the way to Rome.

Braden
12-08-2006, 14:11
Yeah...good job there's Greece to go through (Phalanx Merc's....yummy!)

Dutch_guy
12-08-2006, 16:08
Guys, is it really necessay to name each and every side character Flavius ?! It's really quite confusing :beam:

:balloon2:

Braden
12-08-2006, 16:16
Is a "Whoops!" in order??

I have a very large list of Romano names.....darn-it am I using to many Flavius's's (or is that Flaviuii??)

...hang on....I can only see one person called Flavius in our Econ/Braden/Lucjan joint story, part of Sextus's retune. He is mentioned quite a bit but he's only the one guy.

TinCow
12-08-2006, 16:54
Lucjan, you are welcome to join FLYdude and I on saturday. We can test just as easily with a three way battle as with a two way.

My suggestion is to meet up on Teamspeak first. I will make a RTW channel and we can use that until we are done.

TS IP: ts.railbait.com

Be there at 12:00 pm MST (2:00pm EST, 7:00pm GMT)

Lucjan
12-08-2006, 23:39
I'd like to help, but 2pm EST wouldn't work for me, I have to pick up my girlfriend from work at that time. Maybe shortly after that? 2:30 or 3?

TinCow
12-09-2006, 03:15
I am sure we will still be on at 2:30 or 3:00pm EST. If you've got teamspeak, just join the channel when you get home.

Lucjan
12-09-2006, 13:44
Ok, will do.

econ21
12-09-2006, 14:54
Just to say, I've played out what I think is the decisive phase of the battle of Ancrya and posted the results in a new thread.

I am a little alarmed that my computer keeps crashing - and sometimes not rebooting - when I exit RTW. It's a big worry and almost as if this PBM is telling me to wind it down. I will move things on in the campaign map - the way I see it, we will have a series of decisive battles in or around Italy; the war ending with either Servius in chains or victorious against all comers.

If we can get MP battles working, that might take some of the pressure of me - although I think the umpired model is viable (as is a one big custom battle AI vs AI). It's easy to edit the EDU to be able to use our mercs in custom or MP battles; we can also mod the file to reflect significantly below strength units. We should add experience and upgrades to reflect the units involved. Also, we should adjust unit experience by the difference in the two generals' command stars and traits - I did not do this at Ancrya, as it would have been unfair to spring it on Braden. But it would have meant a +2 experience (+3 to infantry) for the Senate forces.

TinCow
12-09-2006, 17:04
Excellent work on umpiring the battle, econ21. I am massively impressed that you were able to make it fair and realistic given the circumstances.

As an aside, one further advantage of using multiplayer is that we can record the battles for everyone else to see.

TinCow
12-09-2006, 21:03
Bad news from the MP testing front. FLYdude, Lucjan, and I were not able to get a game to work. We all received incompatible version errors when we tried to join each other, no matter who was hosting or what version of the game we tried. FLYdude seems to think it is the Platinum version that is causing the problems and suggests that Gold might work. Another option would be to do the battles in a Vanilla version and fudge the armies as best as we were able to.

econ21
12-09-2006, 23:22
That's disappointing. You could explore RTR Gold, as it's basically got the same units etc. But it could be a hassle installing it for some.

I think going with vanilla RTW would be easiest, especially if we could mod the unit stats and movement speeds (they are just two text files and it would be very easy to tweak the relevant units to have RTRPE stats). Luckily in the case of the Romans, I think there's a decent match between RTR units and RTW ones. We'd only have problems with a few exotic mercenaries.

I am not sure whether there is a problem doing MP with a modded EDU file. I don't think there should be, but I've asked in the RTW MP forum to check:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1341309&postcount=1

Even if we can't mod the stats or movement speeds, I think RTW would give a decent approximation.

Lucjan
12-10-2006, 04:59
I don't see why anybody would have an issue with accepting approximated units due to platinums failure to somehow be compatible with itself.

I've asked a friend for his cd key from a disc that no longer works and he's going to look for it for me tomorrow, I'll try some more things to see if I can't get platinum to work for us when I have the second key, I'll let you guys know what's up after that.

Mount Suribachi
12-10-2006, 12:53
Yeah, I think playing with all Roman armies with vanilla should be OK. Other than the increased movement speeds I would imagine its pretty similar.

econ21
12-10-2006, 23:51
Myrddraal reckons it would not be a problem to mod the stats and movement speeds in MP, so we should be fine.

Now that Ancrya has been resolved, I've played turn 3 of the civil war (autumn 250). I now need orders for turn 4. The savegame is:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/250-win.zip

Most important are Lucjan's orders for Servius and Quintus Naevius; Swordsmaster's and Tiberius's for Luca and Decius; and GeneralHankerchief's. The others will not reach Italy for another season or more.

If people could get me orders by Monday night or Tuesday at the latest, that would be good.

Death the destroyer of worlds
12-11-2006, 01:47
Just a brief note that I found the battle and the reports utterly fascinating.
Muchos kudos for econ21 !
Of course I am also enjoying the civil war stories.
Senate - Consul
1 - 0 :2thumbsup:

Tamur
12-11-2006, 04:59
And I have to add that, even though I was in the "general" chair for the Senate, I found the reports equally fascinating. It made me wish in a big way that there were a way to do that more often -- though of course I would not wish it on econ to have to referee another battle spending hours and hours of his time to do it.

He gave both Braden and I obscured and incomplete battle reports based on where our generals were, made us order by division rather than unit, and generally turned it into a much more real experience. At times it was frustrating, at times rather shocking, but both in a good way.

I've often wished that, in TW battles, I didn't even have the option to micromanage each unit -- that I could instead turn things over to a division commander and say "get this job done" without worrying that said commander will simply charge any enemy in sight range.

So, having econ give us exactly that possibility was jarring at first. Now I'm having a lot of trouble going back to the normal fashion of TW battles.

A big thanks to econ for the way he handled this.

econ21
12-11-2006, 12:20
I really enjoyed doing the umpired battle, although I was surprised by the amount of work it involved. I always wanted a game which simulated the real decisions of a general, rather than getting you to micromanage each individual unit. If we did it again, what I would change would be starting out with two stacks only on the field and then bring on any other stacks a random time during the battle (say probability = [turn #]/6). I think that would add a little more drama and also space out of the combats a little, so everything was not resolved by turn 4 as here.

I think the mechanisms of splitting up fights into mirrored mini-custom battles is a reasonable way of weighing the forces involved, but still allowing some role for battle strategy. After the battle, Lucjan wondered if each that each general should have the chance to fight the AI in these mirrored contests, but on reflection I think it is better that an umpire do it trying to follow the orders given and reflect the lines of deployment. The AI is so awful, there are lots of gamey things you can do to win with virtually no casualties (and our campaign tallies of kill ratios have encouraged the development of these!) but these don't accurately simulate what would happen. Trying to follow the orders of each general and averaging the result seems preferable.

Just a note on translating battlefield losses to the campaign map: I don't have an easy means of changing the strength of units on the campaign map, so I either disbanded them or kept them whole strength. I took the estimated unit survivors, then added 35% of the casualties back (as recovered wounded, prisoners, stragglers, whatever). The final % of the unit remaining was the chance that the unit stayed on the campaign map - I used a random generator to test against that. We could use the same method for translating MP battles onto the campaign map - although we would have to think about whether there should be a further penalty for the loser (the possibility of army dissolution). It struck me after the battle that it would be a shame to dissolve Legio II, so Numerius did a deal with Manius that his survivors would guard the east rather than just be disbanded en masse.

econ21
12-11-2006, 15:10
To keep things on track, I'm going to set a deadline of 6pm UK time tomorrow (Tuesday) for any orders for the campaign map. If I don't receive orders, I'll use my judgement to make the moves but won't get anyone into any trouble if I can avoid it.

Braden
12-12-2006, 10:00
Econ21,

I think the current options we have are just two for MP battles in the Civil War now.

1) A slightly modded Vanilla based MP game
2) Ref (GM) led MP battle similar to the one we’ve just had

Now, currently I think that option one is our best bet, mainly as it cuts down on time. I do have one suggestion if we have to run another GM’d game though, perhaps using a historical based War-Game system to roll the results will be quicker?

From my experience of these type of War-Game they don’t produce a result much different from the results we had in the Ancyra battle, potentially, we could use that as a basis (and a sprinkling of Total War based common sense)?

econ21
12-12-2006, 10:55
I don't mind spending the time to work out combat resolution for a potentially decisive battle - as I suspect the next ones in Italy will be. To be honest, MP may not be that much quicker than a refereed game due to logistical issues (getting everyone on line at the same time and getting things working - we are probably looking at weekends only). I was thinking of using a war-game system originally, but then I realised the custom battles would probably be easier than trying to adapt a system to TW and decide the results (the nice thing about computer games is that the computer does all the maths).

I'm going to try to bring the campaign to a head by the weekend, so that if people want MP battles, they can do them this weekend. The likely participants are Lucjan, FLYdude, Swordsmaster and GeneralHankerchief.

From what's been posted previously, Lucjan and FLYdude prefer MP battles so if Quintus Naevius and Tiberius Coruncanius clash, we can use that method.

Swordsmaster can't do a MP battle. GeneralHankerchief was the one who originally proposed umpired battles, so I suspect he has a preference for that. If Lucjan, GeneralHankerchief and Swordsmaster meet for a big battle, one possibility is to mix the MP and umpired battles as Lucjan proposed a while back. We would proceed as with Ancrya, but when we got to resolving specific combats (like the four in turn 3/4), we could set them up as MP mini-battles that people with good internet connections etc could play out. It would be the most time consuming of all methods, but also potentially the most dramatic. Given that the battle might well be the decisive one of the war, I think that would be ok.

Lucjan
12-12-2006, 13:45
Ultimately it's going to end up being a wait and see issue. Wait for players to clash and see what they can agree on.

Braden
12-12-2006, 15:03
BTW - don't rush too much guys. I'm still considering the next part of my civil war story :book:

I also have to write some thing IC about Manius now (will try and get that on today though).

econ21
12-12-2006, 16:15
Ok, the Winter turn played out without an inter-player incident (Quintus Libo took Alesia; and Lucius Aemilius stomped some rebels). The savegame is here:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/249-spr.zip

The people who could see action this Spring turn are: Lucjan, GeneralHankerchief, Swordsmaster, Tiberius, FLYdude and Mount Suribachi. So those players should pay particular attention to their moves. It's ok to give me orders with simple contingencies (e.g. chase him if he runs etc).

Here's a screenshot of the situation in Italy:

https://img360.imageshack.us/img360/1491/spring249uq0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

To clarify on how I will deal with naval interceptions: if a fleet is ordered to intercept another one and, given the targets ordered movement that turn, could catch it, there will be a 50% chance of interception. If interception occurs, I will stage a sea battle (by editing the descr_strat and starting a new game) and follow the result. It is likely the loser will be forced to sail away from the area and suffer losses (each ship sunk = 1 transported unit disbanded). If interception does not occur, the target fleets slips past and can proceed unmolested.

econ21
12-13-2006, 21:31
OK, just to say, I have the key players' orders in so I am going to execute the Spring turn tonight. This is going to be very interesting.

econ21
12-14-2006, 03:23
Ok, Spring passed without any player vs player battles. (Quintus Libo trashed an Iberian army outside Alesia; as Appius did to a Seleucid army outside Ancrya.)

From this point on, I think we should play with some fog of war. So I will not upload savegames for now. I will send an "umpire" report to each general near the action following a very simple system. For each enemy army or fleet that the general is concerned with, I will roll a 6-sided dice:

1 = the player controlling the enemy formation gets to write the report (ie you are duped)
2 = the formation goes under the radar: you have no reports
3-4 = you have rough information (e.g. "it went north")
5-6 = you have exact information

I am going to apply this system to the following players/formations:

Lucjan - controlling (1) Servius's army; (2) Quintus Naevius's army; (3) Servius's fleet

Mount Suribachi - controlling (1) his army; (2) his fleet

GeneralHankerchief - controlling 3 armies (Marcellus; Luca; Decius) + his fleet

FLYdude - controlling his army

The other generals are not so close to the action yet and also are not communicating over territory quite likely controlled by the enemy.

The above two pairs of allied players should not communicate directly with each other (or via a third party). Any communications they wish to send should be written in character and sent to me. I will then roll a dice:
1= Message intercepted goes to your enemy
2= Message gets lost
3+ Message gets delivered
I will subtract 1 for each additional message sent per turn.

You can deliberately try to get one message intercepted per enemy general. Send it to me and I will roll a dice
1-2 = Message recognised as phoney & sent to enemy with that information
3-4 = Message lost
5-6 = Message passed on as is

There will be an element of blundering about. But I will make some allowance for searches etc so that armies don't implausibly pass each other. Fleets can patrol a coast with a 50% chance of intercepting another fleet moving through that area.

One important point - if you get your army into an ambush position on the campaign map (the general crouches down and says "ambush ready" or something) then I will subtract 2 from the intelligence die roll (although only natural 1s lead to duping). If an enemy moves next to it, I will roll a dice:
1-2 = Ambush successful - set up as in TW campaign
3-5 = Normal battle
6 = Ambushers are ambushed (repaid with interest)

Also: if we fight a battle, it will have appropriate terrain (unlike Ancrya). So settlements, hills, river positions etc are advanageous. And I have decided not to adjust troop experience to reflect general's command stars (apparently command stars only affect morale and that is sky high already in RTR).

I will draft some reports for players tomorrow, after I have contacted any "duping" generals for instructions.

flyd
12-14-2006, 03:48
Oh, this is gonna get interesting. I certainly have no issue with how this is to be conducted, and I understand we already started, and that it would be additional work, but it is a bit of a shame that the traits of the characters don't seem to come into the equations anywhere. I suppose morale bonuses would be difficult or impossible to implement, but traits that increase line of sight or chance of enemy agent detection could be used to modify the dice rolls. The more observant among you may realize that Tiberius happens to have some of these traits, but I promise I'm being completely impartial in suggesting this. :laugh4:

Mount Suribachi
12-14-2006, 10:21
Hmm, yes, I believe Oppius has the "scout" trait ~;)

I'll leave this to Simons discretion ~:)

econ21
12-14-2006, 10:53
Yes, I did check the traits but it seems virtually everyone is a scout or better so they would cancel out to a large degree.

In terms of the scout/recon bonuses, we have:
Numerius/Secundus/Oppius/Tiberius +2
Luca/Servius +3
Quintus/Lucius +4

If one side had a big recon edge, I would be inclined to factor it in but given the virtual parity, I think we should keep it simple.

EDIT: One point to keep in mind - because of my messing about with the save, the seasons are now out of whack. The game thinks it is winter, when in fact it is Summer. Accordingly, land movement rates will be slow this turn.

EDIT: Umpire briefings have been sent out.

Deadline for orders: 6pm UK time tomorrow (Friday).

SwordsMaster
12-14-2006, 15:31
Sorry for the absence guys, had to take a sudden trip for a couple of days. I hope i didn't miss anything important.

econ21
12-14-2006, 19:21
No, Swordsmaster, I think you are just in time. But don't go away! Study the last screen shot in this thread and read the rules about fog of war.

I will send you the feedback I sent GeneralHankerchief. Your characters are close together and so do not have a risk of your communications being intercepted. You should formulate a joint course of action, although of course you are always free to move your stacks separately. In the event you fall out, I am going to give control of Decius Laevinus's stack to GeneralHankerchief as he has the mod installed and so can check out the possible moves more easily.

Tamur
12-15-2006, 00:03
I for one am definitely looking forward to how this all plays out. Econ the master of slight obscurity rolling a die to measure just How obscure it will be. What could be better? :balloon2:

TinCow
12-15-2006, 03:30
It could be better, but I can't quite tell you why because I rolled a 2.

Tamur
12-15-2006, 06:49
lol!!

Sorry, worthless post here but that what the first sincere laugh-out-loud I've had in a while, and I've been giggling about it ever since.

Mount Suribachi
12-15-2006, 09:00
It could be better, but I can't quite tell you why because I rolled a 2.


lol, obviously your promotion to AM comes with a humour upgrade :laugh4:

SwordsMaster
12-15-2006, 16:50
No, Swordsmaster, I think you are just in time. But don't go away! Study the last screen shot in this thread and read the rules about fog of war.

I will send you the feedback I sent GeneralHankerchief. Your characters are close together and so do not have a risk of your communications being intercepted. You should formulate a joint course of action, although of course you are always free to move your stacks separately. In the event you fall out, I am going to give control of Decius Laevinus's stack to GeneralHankerchief as he has the mod installed and so can check out the possible moves more easily.

Cool. Just sent my suggestions to GHC.

Another question: Who does southern ITaly and Sicily belong to?

econ21
12-15-2006, 17:37
Cool. Just sent my suggestions to GHC.

The deadline for receiving orders is in an hour and a half - why don't you forward those suggestions to me?


Another question: Who does southern ITaly and Sicily belong to?

The settlements that matter - those that can recruit troops - are allocated as follows:

Consular
Arretium
Arminum

Senate
Roma
Ancona
Capua
Corfinum
Paestum

econ21
12-15-2006, 19:15
OK, I've done most of the turn. At last we have some action - a massive battle involving Lucjan, GeneralHankerchief, Swordsmaster and Tiberius near the ford north of Rome.

How do the four people involved want to play it? A multiplayer battle or an umpired battle? [1]

I am happy to facilitate either method.

If you choose an MP battle, I can mod the EDU and movement speeds file so that regular RTW plays out like RTR. Then I can give you the lists of the army compositions each side should select.

If you choose an umpired battle, I can do what I did for Ancrya.

I want to maintain some fog of war so I am not going to post the army lists and deployment states right now. But if you look at an old save it's not hard to figure out.



[1]There are other options - an AI vs AI custom battle, for example. But I think for such a potentially decisive battle that would be a little anti-climatic as the players would have no control.

GeneralHankerchief
12-15-2006, 21:23
Well, I would obviously prefer an umpired battle. econ21 has demonstrated that he can do a fantastic job at it with Ancyra, and this time it will be even more realistic.

Also looking at it from a logistical standpoint: It will be pretty hard to get the four of us (five, if econ is involved) to agree to a time and place. Also, I don't know about the rest of you but my computer would hate me if I put it into a multiplayer battle with four full-stack armies. :sweatdrop:

SwordsMaster
12-16-2006, 13:15
Sorry, i missed that post earlier, Simon. I guess it's too late now anyway. I would prefer an umpired battle also. I hope the 1 day per turn balance is mantained, because I only get to my PC for a couple of hours a day...

Lucjan
12-16-2006, 14:30
I also prefer an umpired battle, despite my initial skepticism about the Ancyra battle, after carefully studying the battle as a whole I noticed where and how the critical mistakes were made that resulted in our loss.

Simon, you said this battle, if umpired, would include terrain and fog of war, right?

If so, I agree to an umpired battle.

econ21
12-16-2006, 18:07
Simon, you said this battle, if umpired, would include terrain and fog of war, right?

If so, I agree to an umpired battle.

OK, good that we have a consensus on an umpired battle. (I don't think we need to wait for Tiberius as he has not posted in a while.).

Fog of war is easy to include. Terrain is a bit more tricky, but I will fit it in somehow. Give me till Monday to work out the scenario and then I will get back the participants individually. I have some ideas, but need to think more about them (esp. modelling terrain.)

econ21
12-16-2006, 21:56
Let's call this the battle for Rome. I think it would work better (for simulating fog of war) if we have separate players for each general on the field.

We have:

Consular
Servius - Lucjan
Quintus Naevius -?
Appius Egnatius -? (nb: this is a minor part - he has only a small force)

Senate
Marcellus - GeneralHankerchief
Luca - Swordsmaster
Decius - Tiberius, if he shows up but it seems unlikely?

So we need two extra Consular players and probably one extra Senate player. Any volunteers? To keep it characterful, I think volunteers should have avatars on the same side as they are volunteering for. They also need to be available to give orders on a daily basis next week.

EDIT: I need to e-mail the participants some information. Please can Lucjan, Swordsmaster and GeneralHankerchief PM me with their e-mail addresses? Cheers.

Mount Suribachi
12-16-2006, 22:38
I'll be going away mid-week so I'm out unfortunately.

Tamur
12-16-2006, 23:31
I'd be very happy to fill in on the Senate side if need be.

Lucjan
12-16-2006, 23:59
That's ok Mount, hopefully Dutch or Glaucus can fill in for Quintus and Appius then.

econ21
12-17-2006, 01:18
Don't forget about Braden as a possible Consular player in the battle. He knows how the umpiring works and is very conscientious about PBMs. We could manage without Appius Egnatius having a separate player.

EDIT: I've e-mailed Lucjan and GeneralHankerchief an opening query. If they get back to me, we might be able to start deployment tomorrow. Let me know by PM if you haven't received the EM.

econ21
12-18-2006, 10:02
OK, the deadline for receiving orders of march is 6pm today UK time.

Tamur will play the role of Decius Laevinus unless Tiberius shows up.

I am going to PM Braden to ask him to take on the role of Quintus Naevius. Appius Egnatius can be controlled by Lucjan, unless another Senate player volunteers.

Lucjan
12-18-2006, 17:17
Ok, I'll take Appius, he only has a few units anyway. Anybody talked to Braden lately? I haven't seen him in a day or so.

Tamur
12-18-2006, 17:22
edit: moot question, answer received.

Dutch_guy
12-18-2006, 17:31
Real life's being a mess at the moment, last week exams followed by even more tests this week (just finished physics todays) and an essay which needs finishing for wednesday. I'll try and get more active in contributing to the PBM, but I need my time. Heck, I shouldn't even be posting here (or anywhere else around the fora) with what lack of time I have. *sigh*

*Just a quick note to tell you all what I've been doing / where I've been.*

:balloon2:

Tamur
12-18-2006, 19:05
Best of luck Dutch_guy!

Braden
12-18-2006, 21:50
:embarassed: Firstly, have to say sorry for absence. Been inundated getting Uni Assignments finished for the end of year so haven't been on line at all.

Ok, I'm happy to play Quintus Naevius but have a potential issue about not having ANY computer or internet access after Friday at noon (spending Christmas away from home).

If that fits with the timescales you have then that's ok but if not, I'll have to sit this one out guys.

Let me know :beam:

econ21
12-18-2006, 23:13
Thanks for the heads-up, Braden - I think you are our best bet. There are some interesting early strategic decisions for Quintus in this battle that it would be fun to have someone other than Lucjan take. If you bow out on Friday, that's fine - by then, it may be all tactical and Lucjan can handle that.

Lucjan, please can you send me an order of march tonight? You don't need to consult Braden on this - you are the Consul and to be honest, the exact order is not a big deal. Then I get back to you all with turn 1 tomorrow morning. I want to get four turns before the weekend.

TinCow
12-19-2006, 04:51
If Braden has to bow out before the end of the battle, may I suggest that for story purposes Quintus Naevius be wounded?

Braden
12-19-2006, 09:39
that mechanic works for me and i'm sure he'll be in combat for some of the latter stages of battle.

We can use that.

SwordsMaster
12-19-2006, 16:20
Actually I will have to leave between the 24th and the 28th guys, so I'd like to see this battle played out before that.... I don't want to leav without seeing the result...

econ21
12-19-2006, 16:25
OK, like Swordsmaster, I want to get this battle over before Christmas, so I am going to push ahead. I want to get through 1 turn each day, including today, so we reach turn 4 before Braden has to bow out.

I am e-mailing instructions now for turn 1 to Lucjan and GeneralHankerchief shortly. Please can they get back to me today with their turn 1 orders?

The other armies of the players are not yet in contact. I would like players not to communicate directly with each other unless I authorise it.

Also, a couple of other rules about orders:

(1) If a player tries to communicate with an "off-map" general, messages may go missing as in the campaign (1=enemy tampers with them; 2=message lost; 3+ message goes through). Currently, only Servius and Marcellus on "on-map".

(2) A general can assuredly command the two nearest divisions. Further away divisions that are "on-map" may fail to get orders on 1 in 6 chance. If a general tries to control an "off-map" division, the risk rises to 1 in 3. In the even of a unit receiving no orders, I will control it as I think plausible (usually, it will not move).

EDIT: I've also e-mailed Braden and Tamur to check their order of march; Swordsmaster has provided his.

econ21
12-19-2006, 16:48
To recap, these the relevant rules from the Ancrya battle:

1. There will then be 6 turns, ideally played out in 6 days (today inclusive)
- advance to contact (1) - Tu (today)
- mid-morning (2) - Wed
- late morning (3) - Th
- early afternoon (4) - Fri
- late afternoon (5) - Sat
- evening (6) - Sun
At the start of each turn, each player will use Paint to mark his planned maneouvres and send me any accompanying notes.

2. Players should act like historical armies and not try to micro-manage too much. Orders may get lost and things may slip up. The position of the generals will be particularly important in determining the outcome of any fine maneouvring - if he is far away or locked in combat, he may not be able to control events. (Best avoid the RTW bad habit of using your general as a spearhead.)

3. I will put the orders together. Execution of movement will be simultaneous, so I will work out the result of any clashes arising based on my judgement - informed by common sense, unit stats, history and experience of RTRPE. I will upload an end-turn file showing the state of play together with brief feedback.

4. We will play out one turn per day of real life.

Further notes:

I am going to try to simulate a real ancient battle, so it may take more than a turn for a melee between two lines of heavy infantry to be resolved. A cavalry charge will be resolved more quickly though (and if successful may overrun into other enemy units during the same turn).

I will also impose fatigue penalties, so units that come into the action later in the day will have an edge. A typical unit will only be able to fight for two turns and then be exhausted. Units will not be able to withdraw easily from a melee, except Roman infantry which was apparently practiced that.

Units may be able to change their facing autonomously so if you want a flank attack, make sure you pin the enemy first. Units next to a general may be able to do even more in reaction to an enemy move so make sure you place your general where he needs to be to control things.

Please don't ask me to align unit x to fight unit y - I don't think a real Roman general would get into such a level of micromanagement (unless he was adjacent to unit x).

On the realism of fog of war - a general can only see through line of sight. He does not have a helicopter or interactive total war style map laid out. Once the lines have met in combat, I doubt he could see much - particularly on level ground. He would have to use riders to keep in touch with his divisons, but riders can be lost, reports garbled and orders can be misunderstood (think Balaclava).


Divisional structure and giving orders

To simplify this, please give orders only to groups (“division”) of your army. You may have pre-existing “divisions” in your army and may create an additional one per army by detaching units from existing divisions. It would be foolish to try to re-arrange units locked in melee, though.

However, each general may be given individual orders and need not be in a division. The generals are Servius, Quintus and Appius for the Consul; Marcellus, Luca and Decius for the Senate. Other general units are not generals per se, although their presence in a division may give that division more autonomous capability.

Please draft your orders in character, as if given by a real general. They should be clear and simple. The more confused or complicated, the more likely the divisional commander will mess up. Ideally, I would like to publish these orders in a battle report (after the battle is concluded – so they will be confidential until then). You may allow for contingencies, but if the orders are too complex, the divisional commander may become confused or feel constrained from acting on his own initiative. You can trust your divisional commanders to execute their orders in a competent way (you don’t need to micromanage them and tell them how to fight – I may let the AI control them to see how a division vs division fight would play out). But they willhave limited initiative to respond to new developments.

What orders should cover:
- where to move, inc. facing
- which formation to engage or screen (this will help me determine facing)
- for missiles (inc. pila and javelin armed heavily infantry): whether to fire at will or who to target
- for melee units: whether to charge or prepare to receive a charge
- whether to pursue or hold ground once in place

econ21
12-19-2006, 23:38
OK, I'm ready to move to turn 2 once I receive Lucjan's orders. As a reminder - please, no communication between players except via me.

TinCow
12-20-2006, 00:56
Now if you look to your right, you will see our most prized exhibit: the secret weapon that the Consular forces used to win the famed Battle of Rome.

http://www.kathycallahan.org/stringtelephone2.jpg

Avicenna
12-20-2006, 07:00
Tamur can take Decius. :2thumbsup:

Sorry about that, I've got GCSE mocks in a few weeks' time :sweatdrop:

econ21
12-20-2006, 12:04
I have not got turn 1 orders from Lucjan - if I don't have them by 6pm UK time, his army will still be in march column by the end of the early morning turn and we'll proceed to mid-morning.

BTW, I am not going to enforce a sudden death end to the battle - it may span over two days if people are very hesistant about engaging.

PS: Good luck, Tiberius! :2thumbsup:

Braden
12-20-2006, 12:48
Lucjan not sending orders in.....

...doesn't bode well for the Consular side.

GeneralHankerchief
12-20-2006, 12:57
Lucjan not sending orders in.....

...doesn't bode well for the Consular side.

:eyebrows:

Lucjan
12-20-2006, 13:56
Just got on now, I was out christmas shopping all day yesterday and had work last night, I'll get on top of everything right now.

Lucjan
12-20-2006, 14:02
I've got a rough schedule right now guys, you need to give me at least 24 hours from the time of notification that these things are happening for me to get back to you. And I didn't get anything from econ in my pm box when I checked for a split second yesterday so I assumed we were still delayed on something.

But from my understanding I have until 6pm GMT tonight, so..plenty of time.

Braden
12-20-2006, 14:14
Phew!

So now the Senate side are shaking again- lol!

econ21
12-20-2006, 22:51
OK, I got everyone's orders in on time. The schedule I want to try to follow is that you have 24 hours from my sending you an EM to getting back with your orders. I am to e-mail people to request turn 2 orders tonight.

econ21
12-20-2006, 23:40
OK, sent off e-mails to Lucjan and GH. I think you two are both on US time and I am likely to work on this mainly in the (late) evenings, so if you could check your e-mails in your evenings, things might work out so that we can turn around a move a day.

I will contact the other players shortly.

EDIT: Ok, all players now have feedback for the start of turn 2 (mid-morning). Deadline for turn 2orders - 11pm Thurs UK time. Remember orders may not be properly acted upon (1 in 6 chance for all but the two divisions closest to general).

Braden
12-21-2006, 10:08
Just a quick note to let everyone know there will be a pause in the Decius Curtius story for the festive season.

Basically, as of tomorrow lunchtime I will be out of internet contact (at my....*sigh*....Mothers for Christmas).

:embarassed:

Lucjan
12-21-2006, 13:39
Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to everybody. Have a safe, happy holiday, and try not to gorge too much on the christmas feast. :sweatdrop:

And Braden...hang in there, it'll be over before you know it. :yes: :laugh4:

Braden
12-21-2006, 14:22
Thanks,

At least the food is free. :laugh4:

SwordsMaster
12-21-2006, 14:27
Just finished doing the shopping for drinks for christmas dinner... 2 bottles of port, 2 bottles of champaigne, bottle of whiskey.... Should be fun...

econ21
12-21-2006, 17:27
OK, I think I have turn 2 orders from everyone except Swordsmaster. Please let me know if you did not receive my EM from late last night, SM. And I'm just going to PM you now.

Mount Suribachi
12-21-2006, 19:40
Right, this is my last post before Christmas. Due to my totally nuts work I've been unable to finish the story of the Carthage ambush - Simon knows the outcome and will I am sure act appropriately ~:)

Have a good 'un guys and gals

econ21
12-21-2006, 23:14
All the best, Mount - have a good Christmas (and same to other PBMers who are taking a break now).

I've done the feedback for turn 2 and think it may be better from here on to work via the Org PMs rather than by e-mail. We can use links to imageshack or somewhere similar to show the jpgs of our army's postions. I will be sending PMs to all 5 battle participants in the next half hour.

Braden
12-22-2006, 10:39
Well, what could be the last post until after Christmas.

So this afternoon I set off for a place that has neither computers, internet or even Sky television……I have no idea how I’ll cope apart from the two Simon Scarrow books I’ll take with me (from the “Cato” series) and the prospect of presents and free food.

Ok, doesn’t sound that bad apart from the:

1) Missing this forum and all the wonderful people here
2) Missing out on turns 4 and onwards for the battle of Rome – and not even knowing the result until BOXING DAY Night!!
3) Not being able to play RTR at all

So, I wish you all the best in the TRUE spirit of the Winter Festival (not Christmas….Pah! Christians! ~;) - joking, love you all really ) :

May Father Winter, the Goddess and the Lord of Light bless you all with food and wealth in this Yule period and into the renewed year.

…and take heart in that, at least the Christians got the date nearly right! Should be December the 21st though.

“The dark of Winter is safe like my bedcovers at night. Dark whispers of a Mother's love caress me. In the darkness of the Mother's womb, the void I am safe, sustained, at peace, and can move inward, into my own dark self, looking, learning, purifying. I can cleanse myself of all that blocks me from being born new with the rising new solstice sun when the sun king is born, with promises for the Spring ahead”

Tamur
12-22-2006, 14:45
Best of luck Braden! Though your list sounds quite dour, it should still be a nice break... at least for your fingers.

As a present we might not sell the *entire* Consular force into slavery :beam:

Lucjan
12-22-2006, 16:15
Slavery? Wha? Bah humbug! I mean...uhm, blasphemy! :laugh4:

TinCow
12-22-2006, 17:52
I think Servius would fit perfectly as Scrooge in a WOTS version of A Christmas Carol. If you're not a good boy, you might get a visit from the Ghost of Republic Past.

econ21
12-22-2006, 18:00
OK, I have turn 3 orders for the two Consular generals, but I need them from the three Senate generals. :whip:

I know Braden's left us - if anyone else is going to have availability problems before Christmas, please let me know. I have a feeling Saturday and Sunday are going to be crucial, so if generals could check in on each of those days, that would be good. :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
12-22-2006, 18:33
I should be able to stay on Saturday and Sunday. Christmas is a bit iffy, but if you need me I'll see what I can do.

Sorry about not getting orders in, I'm... conspiring... :sweatdrop:

Oh, and have a very Merry Christmas everybody. :yes:

econ21
12-23-2006, 02:20
OK, I've sent out a feedback on turn 3 to Lucjan, GH and Tamur. I still don't have orders for turn 3 from Swordsmaster, but for now his front is rather separate from the three-way that's developing so I will let that advance at a slower rate if necessary.

Please try not hold things up by asking for clarification on feedback - put down any confusion to fog of war etc; and maybe write scenarios for different interpretations. Let's get his battle over by Christmas!

I expect to be working out a lot of combat this turn, so if you can all get turn 4 orders to me by 18.00 GMT today (Saturday), that will give me the time required to run all the required custom battles & write the turn 4 feedback before dawn on Sunday.

I'm aiming to conclude at least day 1 of this battle by Christmas Eve. If it is indecisive, we'll pause and come back to it some time after Christmas.

Lucjan
12-23-2006, 08:03
It's getting interesting now simon. And I'm looking forward to seeing the spoon comment from my turn 3 orders in a "jack" story. You know what one I mean. :beam:

SwordsMaster
12-23-2006, 17:22
Really sorry for holding this up guys. I will send the orders to Simon for the next few turns, as I'm afraid today is my last session until next friday or so.

I hope Someone can take up Luca's army after if critical decisions need to be done, otherwise I will put my faith in the Gods as a good roman would do :laugh4:

A very merry Christmas to all!!

TinCow
12-23-2006, 18:41
I will be around for all of the Xmas holidays. If there are decisions that absolutely must be made by a real person and the previous participants are not available, I will volunteer to fill in.

Tamur
12-23-2006, 19:38
edit: good heavens

SwordsMaster
12-23-2006, 20:05
Just emailed you the orders and disposition, Simon.

GeneralHankerchief
12-23-2006, 20:08
Tamur? What are you doing?! ~:eek:

Did you mean to PM these?

Tamur
12-23-2006, 20:58
*Tamur is astoundingly embarrassed*

I tried PMing, and the server didn't respond. I gave up and emailed the orders to Simon. How they got here I have no idea.

Dear dear dear... that "embarrassed" graphic doesn't even come close. Someone please lash me to a shipmast and send me into shark-infested waters.

GeneralHankerchief
12-23-2006, 21:03
Someone please lash me to a shipmast and send me into shark-infested waters please.

I do not think Lucjan was on for that period of time. Otherwise... :hide:

econ21
12-23-2006, 21:30
Sorry, everyone - I have really messed things up for Tamur and GH by sending two consecutive inaccurate jpgs of their deployment. I've been trying to do things too fast and must be more careful. I've PMd them with the correct map and await to hear from them.

Of course, this is a particularly embarassing thing to happen after posting a "no clarifications" messge in this thread! ~:doh:

econ21
12-23-2006, 22:59
OK, I now have up to date orders for turn 4 from Lucjan, Tamur and GH.

To fill the participants in - what is essentially developing are two battles. The eastern battle involves the above three players. The western battle pitches Luca's army against Quintus's. The two battles are not contiguous, but divisions may be moved from one battlefield to the other, taking a turn to traverse the gap between them.

Given that we have lost Quintus (Braden) and Luca (Swordsmaster), I am asking Lucjan and TinCow to assume their roles. This might give Lucjan a slight edge, controlling both battlefields, but he is outnumbered and anyway the Consular side might reasonably be said to have a more centralised command structure (Lucjan's been controlling Quintus on the strategy map anyway).

I have now sent out turn 3 feedback on the western battle to Lucjan and TinCow, requesting turn 4 orders.

I am now going to resolve turn 4 on the eastern battle and aim to send feedback to the relevant parties later tonight.

econ21
12-24-2006, 18:01
Turn 4 resolved and soliciting orders for turn 5 (late afternoon).

I have orders from GH and Lucjan, although the latter may want to revisit Quintus's deployment in view of the resolution of turn 4. I now need orders from Tamur especially, but also Tincow (who, like Quintus, can't fight but can deploy).

econ21
12-24-2006, 21:32
OK, I have orders from all the generals who can fight so I am going to resolve the turn 5 combats shortly. If I don't hear from TinCow by the time I have written everything up, I will work from his last battle formation - his men can't fight this turn anyway and turn 6 will give an opportunity to rejig things before combat locks him in.

TinCow
12-24-2006, 22:00
I have replied with my deployment.

econ21
12-24-2006, 22:40
Thanks, Tincow - we are good to go. I just need to fight the custom battles now.

econ21
12-25-2006, 01:27
Feedback now sent to all players. Orders requested for turn 6, the last turn before nightfall. Heaven help me, this is more interesting than Christmas. (I ordered Christmas be to cancelled, but rolled a 1).

GeneralHankerchief
12-25-2006, 01:43
(I ordered Christmas be to cancelled, but rolled a 1).

:laugh4:

I might be able to get these orders in quickly, but it is uncertain. Is there any special rush?

econ21
12-25-2006, 02:01
No - no rush at all, GH. We are going to have to play at the speed of the slowest player anyway. With two fresh armies on the field, the combat resolution is going to be horrendous. Let's take a break for a day or two, and I'll post when I have a decent number of orders in.

Merry Christmas everyone! :duel: ~:cheers: ~:santa: ~:grouphug: :bow:

Tamur
12-25-2006, 08:03
Happy Christmas to all!

It's unlikely I'll get orders posted at all tomorrow, Tuesday we'll be back to the grind. :whip: :2thumbsup:

Lucjan
12-25-2006, 15:18
I can't be certain as to whether or not I'll have time to order anything today, after all, it's christmas, and Merry Christmas to everybody in that respect! But let's postpone this for today.

Mount Suribachi
12-26-2006, 16:12
Right everyone I'm back. I guess no-one is writing up a battle report till the whole thing is done, right?

Gives me chance to do my battle report with teh Carthies then ~:)

econ21
12-26-2006, 20:36
Welcome back, Mount. I now have the Senate orders for turn 6; just waiting for Lucjan.

Braden
12-26-2006, 21:18
Hi guys! I'm back and ready to assist where ever I'm needed. I thought I'd come back to a finished battle though to be honest.

Anyway, had a really good break away....very relaxing and full of really nice food!

GeneralHankerchief
12-26-2006, 22:29
Welcome back Braden and Mount!


I thought I'd come back to a finished battle though to be honest.

Yeah, so did the Senate... :wall:

Lucjan
12-26-2006, 23:53
Simon now has my orders...and I can't wait to try out my new graphics card.

Christmas gift cards for best buy are easily the best gift ever. Went out and splurged them all on a 512 meg Nvidia 7600 GS. :-D

Easily better than the 256 ATI x1300 pro I had been running.

EDIT - Am I frustrating you GeneralHankerchief? lol. Sorry, but I have to stay true to my character, and Servius isn't the type to just roll over and die, even with the kind of situation he's in. You're a good opponent, keeping things interesting. Thanks.

Dutch_guy
12-27-2006, 00:06
Nice going on the 7600GS Lucjan, I daresay you'll be enormously pleased with how it handles M2TW. Not to mention Rome, of course ! :2thumbsup:

Anyway, I'll be out of action for at least 5 days starting this thursday. It seems I shall be visiting our lawful consul in Rome, in person ~;)

I hope I don't miss too much of the action, am I right in assuming the current battle 'll take some more days, maybe even a week ? :book:

PS: Welcome back Braden and Mount.

:balloon2:

econ21
12-27-2006, 03:57
I've got all the orders, but I'm off to visit my parents tomorrow and won't be able to resolve the turn 6 combats until tomorrow night at the earliest. I'll probably be requesting orders for the next turn on Thursday.

Braden
12-27-2006, 22:31
Sweet GFX card Lucjan! Wish such things didn't tend to kill my current machine but looking ahead to a big spend on a M2TW capable unit in the next few months.

Anyway, Simon, if you need me for anything regarding the battle PM me or email me to my non-work mail.

I'll keep looking though

econ21
12-28-2006, 02:36
Thanks for the offer, Braden, but Servius has basically lost his army of Iberia so has retreated into Quintus's army of Gaul which he summoned to aid him. It's probably best to just let Lucjan play out the rest of the battle as there is no longer really a divided command.

I've now sent feedback on turn 6. I think the night turn can be fairly swift, as I don't expect to resolve any major combats. BTW, generals can move freely even at night (no chance of ambush), so it's best to put them next to the two formations you most want to control when dawn breaks.

GeneralHankerchief
12-28-2006, 05:23
Silly question, but will missile supplies be replenished during the night?

econ21
12-28-2006, 13:30
Silly question, but will missile supplies be replenished during the night?

Good idea - all units can start with a full set of ammo.

Lucjan
12-28-2006, 15:44
I am immensely pleased with the cards handling of M2 (But I still play with shadows off! :laugh4: I've grown so accustomed to it, that they actually annoy me when they're on.)
I'll post some screenshots later tomorrow or saturday.


Now all I need to do is wait until March. Then the birthday comes, and I'll be able to buy that long awaited new motherboard and cpu. Right now my seven year old 2.8 single cell just can't handle the framerates anymore. Any suggestions in this respect? Bear in mind I'll most likely be buying from Newegg.com because of their 6 month billing plan and gigantic selection.

SwordsMaster
12-28-2006, 17:03
HEy, guys!

I thought you'd be done by now, but if you still want me to retake Luca I will gladly do so.

Tamur
12-28-2006, 17:57
Lucjan, buy Asus/Intel 64! I've got an A8N-SLI/3200 Venice combo that runs M2 beautifully even with a slightly outdated X1600 Pro, highly recommended with the card you've got.

edit: good heavens I sound like a geek.

Braden
12-28-2006, 21:24
Simon,

Ok, honestly i didn't think Servius' forces would last that long (Gauls again!) but I cant wait to see what's going to be the end result as Quintus' army was pretty "rock".

TinCow
12-29-2006, 00:38
HEy, guys!

I thought you'd be done by now, but if you still want me to retake Luca I will gladly do so.

It's your avatar so I think it would be inappropriate for me to continue to play him. I'll PM you the latest intelligence and communications I have received. I have not yet submitted orders for the night time turn, so from there on it will be back in your hands.

econ21
12-29-2006, 03:51
Thanks, Tincow. :bow: To keep things moving, I'm going to say Luca just orders his men to have a rest in the night time. That means we can move on to turn 7, the early morning turn. If people have not received feedback from me, that means nothing has changed for them. They should now submit orders for turn 7. I'd like to execute the turn 7 orders Friday night, UK time, if that's possible.

Pistols (or pila) at dawn, gentlemen. :duel:

Mount Suribachi
12-29-2006, 10:49
Man, this is frustrating, not knowing what is happening in the battle......

econ21
12-29-2006, 13:44
Yes, it would be nice to have some kind of ongoing battle report, but I just don't have the time. There is a thread I've been compiling on people's orders and my umpire notes which I can make public. Unless any general objects, I'll post it here after the day 2 turn 1 orders are in (ie hopefully tonight). It will only cover the battle up to nightfall so hopefully old orders are obsolete.

Lucjan
12-29-2006, 14:15
I think we should release something of a teaser, a few smattered details, maybe with some intentional flaws thrown in but a general idea of the current situation, done from the perception of locals watching the battle maybe. But I think we should hold a report on the actual tactical records of the battle off until its conclusion. Just seems more intrigueing that way.

econ21
12-29-2006, 15:01
OK, I'll hold on posting the warts and all thread. The participants are welcome to release something partial. I am busy working my way through a backlog of Citadel threads, so I don't think I'll be able to manage it.

EDIT: Waiting for orders from Swordsmaster (and Tamur, if GHs orders don't cover his units).

SwordsMaster
12-29-2006, 18:07
Thanks TinCow!

:bow:

EDIT: Just sent you the orders, Simon.

Tamur
12-29-2006, 19:33
Orders sent.

econ21
12-30-2006, 02:29
All generals should now have feedback on turn 8. Turn 9 (mid-morning) orders are now invited.

NB: there are three massive heavy infantry combats going on, and these will be resolved in turn 9. You can tweak the outcome of these at the margins, by committing any free troops. However, trying to rearrange units locked in battle would be very risky - probably disasterous if you did not have reinforcements to take their place. Skirmishers etc can all be assumed to be out of ammo by now, unless you explicitly kept them out of the fight.

GeneralHankerchief
12-30-2006, 04:56
Well, not giving too much away for those who weren't involved in the battle...

The Senate side has had a MAJOR problem with Publius Laevinius (remember him?).

Lucjan
12-30-2006, 14:50
Ohh, wait until you guys get the public announcement from Econ regarding this turn. It's a doozy.

Tamur
12-30-2006, 16:16
Not sure I like the sound of that. :scared:

GeneralHankerchief
12-30-2006, 19:10
econ, can you clear your inbox?

GeneralHankerchief
12-30-2006, 19:10
-edit: double post. Please delete.-

Motep
12-30-2006, 19:22
Is it still joinable?

Lucjan
12-30-2006, 19:37
Actually we're wrapping this pbem up with the end of this battle. But will soon after be starting one with M2 as soon as we clear up all the details on what we want to keep the same, change, and new details we want to add to keep the game as interesting as possible at all times.

econ21
12-30-2006, 21:13
Sorry about that - inbox cleared. Waiting to hear from GH and Lucjan. :jumping:

EDIT: E-mail checked and orders received, GH. :bow:

GeneralHankerchief
12-30-2006, 21:16
Check your email.

Braden
12-30-2006, 22:53
C'm-on! Consul!!

econ21
12-31-2006, 10:46
OK, the battle for Rome is over - it was a close run thing[1], but in the end numbers decided the matter in the Senate's favour. I've posted a thread detailing the orders and umpire feedback. I think this effectively ends the Civil War: there are still eight strong Senate armies in the field (Luca, Decius, Tiberius, Cnaeus, Lucius, Secundus and Numerius x2) and only two far away Consular ones (Quintus Libo & Flavius Paucuvius) with no hope of reinforcements.

I think now is the time to wind down this PBM. To end things properly, a propose we have a final election to put in place a new First Consul as a successor to Servius. I would also like to give them the option of playing on solo if they wish - they could even pass on the savegame after 5 years to a successor, as in a traditional oldstyle PBM. If people like Generalhankerchief, Braden or Mount Suribachi want to continue this campaign up on a such lowkey basis, I am happy for them to do so. I might even be tempted myself. People can also round off any Civil War stories - I'd like to see some closure to Manius's story at least. But I think after the election, we should close the Senate deliberations thread and stop passing on the savegames for generals to fight their own battles so that we free up the Throne Room to devote its energies to other future PBMs - notably M2TW but also, perhaps after a patch, EB 0.8.


[1]BTW, in case anyone wondered, I was basing the dual battle aspect of the Battle for Rome on Waterloo-Wavre.

Mount Suribachi
12-31-2006, 12:58
Noooo, say it ain't so!!! Must all good things come to an end?

For the record, I would be happy to play on as a fighting general, though not as a consul.

Of course, I am assuming that no-one tries to prosecute Oppius for siding with Servius ~;)

GeneralHankerchief
12-31-2006, 22:52
Hmm, short problem guys.

The Rapidshare uploads for the mod aren't there anymore. This doesn't affect me too much but I would prefer to re-download them onto a different computer in order to make the game work a bit better.

Congrats to all sides, but especially my Senate comrades-in-arms Luca and Decius. :grin:

SwordsMaster
12-31-2006, 22:59
Great battle guys and great finale for this story!

Lucjan
01-01-2007, 15:02
All in all I think it's an interesting enough wrap up for the pbem. It didn't dwindle out at the end, stayed tense up until the last moment, and still leaves open the chance of a Servian return or perhaps children of his rising to prominence in Rome's future, under a different name than Aemilia of course. But it's an interesting concept to leave the game off with.

EDIT - As a further note, I wanted you guys to be the first to know that a friend and I are working on something that I think the org could really have a good time with. A comic strip series intended to focus on the life of a few video game enthusiasts like ourselves with a comic bent towards TW series references and situations. Look for the first issue by middle of January, after which I'd like to put out a strip every 1-2 weeks. Hope you guys will like it, and I'll be looking for feedback. ~;)

Tamur
01-01-2007, 23:02
Cool, econ can be even *more* famous than he already is! :beam: Looking forward to that Lucjan, make sure to keep us updated.

Patriarch of Constantinople
01-02-2007, 03:38
*walks in quietly*

Ummmmmmmm :sweatdrop: , I'm sorry for never have been active during this, but since this has gotten good, can I still be in? Thank you

*leaves quietly*

econ21
01-02-2007, 08:49
Hi Patriach of Constantinople, aka Hannibal99. ~:wave: I am sorry but this is PBM is just closing - there would be no point rejoining. However, we will very soon be starting a similar M2TW PBM which you would be welcome to join. Keep your eyes peeled or contribute to the brainstorming session going on in the M2TW HRE trial thread.

Mount Suribachi
01-02-2007, 11:20
One thing I was thinking about is starting another RTW mod PBEM. In the MTW2 test thread there seems agreement that the "feudal" system you've developed makes for a slow game, so how about running a more conventional system in another game? Perhaps using the royal and non-royal idea I talked about in the MTW2 test thread.

I was thinking maybe a BI game using gothmod or Invasio Barbarorum, perhaps re-uniting the Roman Empire again, this time as the ERE? I know you want to do an EB game as well Simon, but are waiting for 1.0 to come out. For that matter, anyone have a clue when RTR 7.0 is due? Its been "soon" for about 6 months now....

Braden
01-02-2007, 11:38
Gah! We was robbed!! :laugh4:

Anyway, seems like I ought to put some effort into finishing the Decus/Manius story now guys.

Trust something like a holiday to get in the way of creative endeavours.

*Consul forever!!*

*Edit - Actually, I’m waiting for the HOF results. Thought I’d missed the votes as they were “meant” to be finalised over Christmas but I see that they polls haven’t opened yet.

Dutch_guy
01-02-2007, 19:37
So I understand this entire thing is slowly winding down now, isn't it...

Anyway, the consul isn't found yet and would it be possible for him to ...ehm...resurface at some time - or will the good consul (heh) eventually rise up again ?

Having such an army at my disposal as I have now, and doing nothing with it, is a waste...

:balloon2:

econ21
01-02-2007, 23:23
So I understand this entire thing is slowly winding down now, isn't it...

I think so - GeneralHankerchief and I are inclined to see the next Consul(s) elected but then put the PBM to bed. If anyone wants to pick up the savegame - stand for Consul against us asap. We may run with it a bit in a more conventional PBM manner, but no promises.


Anyway, the consul isn't found yet and would it be possible for him to ...ehm...resurface at some time - or will the good consul (heh) eventually rise up again ?

I think we should regard the reappearance of Servius as a bogeyman story used by loyal Senate matrons to scare their little charges to sleep at night. If people want to write any end of campaign vignettes, they should leave Servius's fate open. I suspect Servius, like Hannibal, he may prove too big a man to escape into obscurity forever, but no doubt Lucjan envisages a more upbeat scenario than dying in some faraway land.


Having such an army at my disposal as I have now, and doing nothing with it, is a waste...

Not sure if you know about this - but the King of Carthage insisted on you disbanding all your non-Italian/Roman troops. You even had to put down your own elephants. :elephant: => ~:mecry: So it is not "such an army". And I doubt Marcellus and Numerius would be happy to leave you alone with it in Afrika given recent events. :inquisitive:

Dutch_guy
01-02-2007, 23:46
Not sure if you know about this - but the King of Carthage insisted on you disbanding all your non-Italian/Roman troops. You even had to put down your own elephants. :elephant: => ~:mecry: So it is not "such an army". And I doubt Marcellus and Numerius would be happy to leave you alone with it in Afrika given recent events. :inquisitive:

Oh yes, I do know that - although I was under the impression my force was still somewhat large. Larger at least than it seems to be ~:mecry: :embarassed:



:balloon2:

econ21
01-03-2007, 00:01
Oh yes, I do know that - although I was under the impression my force was still somewhat large.

It's a full stack, I think, and now being exclusively composed of Romans/Italians is pretty hardcore. It's just that it could not really cause that much trouble in the long run when the Senate have eight such stacks back in Europe.
:juggle2:

Dutch_guy
01-03-2007, 00:07
It's a full stack, I think, and now being exclusively composed of Romans/Italians is pretty hardcore. It's just that it could not really cause that much trouble in the long run when the Senate have eight such stacks back in Europe.
:juggle2:

Oh I wasn't planning on actually taking Rome or anything like that, the 1 :8 (give or take) ratio doesn't quite sound that appealing, but since when does a Roman look and act in the long run -heh.

:balloon2:

econ21
01-03-2007, 02:19
One thing I was thinking about is starting another RTW mod PBEM. In the MTW2 test thread there seems agreement that the "feudal" system you've developed makes for a slow game, so how about running a more conventional system in another game? Perhaps using the royal and non-royal idea I talked about in the MTW2 test thread.

I was thinking maybe a BI game using gothmod or Invasio Barbarorum, perhaps re-uniting the Roman Empire again, this time as the ERE? I know you want to do an EB game as well Simon, but are waiting for 1.0 to come out. For that matter, anyone have a clue when RTR 7.0 is due? Its been "soon" for about 6 months now....

Both a M2TW and an EB PBM are going to happen soon - within weeks for the former and a month or two for the latter. I've just posted some simple ideas for a WotSII type PBM for M2TW that I think would be unproblematic. EB players want to go with the current version 0.8, after a minor patch (not 1.0). It looks like it may not be a Roman one - perhaps Greeks or a less conventional faction.

The question is whether there is room for a third new PBM. Personally, I would be interested in a BI game using gothmod or Invasio Barbarorum. But would enough other players? If you want to pursue this idea, you could start a new thread.

I personally can't get enough of the Romans, so I would be happy to join an ERE campaign. I'd like to keep it to the traditional "succession" type model though - I think there's only room for one WotS type game with deliberations and votes etc. I can't recall how long generals live in BI, but I think we played proper reigns in the WRE epic and reigns were epic, but manageable (just :sweatdrop: - someone suggested we play on after unificaton and an exhausted TinCow was aghast at the idea). I'd even prefer not to delegate battles, so as to keep up momentum and pace.

Mount Suribachi
01-03-2007, 14:21
Well, I was thinking of a more in-between game. The MTW2 rules for HRE are still a bit too complicated for my liking. My ideal would be a game with a hereditary ruler, but battles still parcelled out to other players.

econ21
01-03-2007, 21:44
My ideal would be a game with a hereditary ruler, but battles still parcelled out to other players.

That would be fine by me. My inclination is to finalise the M2TW PBM first - the rules and the playlist. Then we can see if it is still to complex for you and whether there are enough players who could commit to the kind of PBM you are proposing.

Tamur
01-04-2007, 22:57
Actually, I’m waiting for the HOF results. Thought I’d missed the votes as they were “meant” to be finalised over Christmas but I see that they polls haven’t opened yet.

We just got the last of the knots worked out and Tosa should be posting the HoF voting threads very soon.

econ21
01-08-2007, 18:27
Good write-up of the battle for Rome, GeneralHankerchief! I will see if I can dig out some screenshots to illustrate it later tonight.

PS: In case any WotS veterans have missed it, we are starting up the successor MT2W PBM today - "King of the Romans" (that title rather makes it sound like Servius won afterall :inquisitive: ).

Lucjan
01-08-2007, 23:11
Well, he did survive. No telling what hand he or his children had in Roman history afterwards. We ended our part of the chronicle with the civil war. ~;)

GeneralHankerchief
01-08-2007, 23:24
We'll see about that. Marcellus still has one last story to tell. :evilgrin:

Lucjan
01-08-2007, 23:28
Hey now, that doesn't mean you can just go ahead and kill him off. Something like that requires a cooperative work. :sweatdrop:

GeneralHankerchief
01-08-2007, 23:39
I promise to leave the ending ambiguous. :saint:

flyd
01-08-2007, 23:52
Hey now, that doesn't mean you can just go ahead and kill him off. Something like that requires a cooperative work. :sweatdrop:

Ok, do you want to cooperate on a work in which Servius dies? :laugh4:

Braden
01-09-2007, 00:08
To be honest, a dramatic suicide seems more fitting.

Lucjan
01-09-2007, 00:43
:smash: Ok, ok, ok. Everybody with ideas on what you want to happen to Servius, send me a pm. We'll talk. :yes: :laugh4: