View Full Version : Cav vs Inf
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-06-2006, 09:26
Hi,
I made a video. It is too short, because I have only a shareware fraps version, but you can see a charge against valour 3 infantery (heavy swords!) The cav kills also the other Inf:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=a2v994uEYfk
I tried the strength of the cav and It can't be. One cav can beat 2! valour 3 ! inf. maybe also 3. Why should I still use inf, if cav can kill all infantery? This is very annoying. The balance isn't okay.
Cav should be used to flank the enemy if they attack frontal, they cannot destroy 2 heavy sword units. This wasn't possible in mtw1. a good flank made the enemy routing, but it doesn't destroyed one FULL strong unit.
I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72477
sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch :dizzy2: mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-06-2006, 10:07
I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.
Yes, i cannot count like the infantery get killed. 60 30 0 :wall:
sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch :dizzy2: mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!
:dizzy2: Yes, weaker. At the moment, I don't want to play the game. With this cav charge, the game makes no sense.
CeltiberoMordred
12-06-2006, 11:02
It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.
Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-06-2006, 11:29
It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.
Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).
This is annoying as well, but the CAV charge kills every INF unit to zero. That is unplayable. And valour makes no differents. Cannot be. After some games I can say the fatigue is also too less.
:help:
CeltiberoMordred
12-06-2006, 11:58
Fatigue impact is too low compared to MTW running and fighting. Going uphill is very severe with infantry, though. Desert makes no effect in heavy armoured units. Troops with plate mail in summer+desert keep fresh for ages. Light troops tire faster than heavy units in desert because they are not "hardy". But this is another thread...
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-06-2006, 12:22
Fatigue impact is too low compared to MTW running and fighting. Going uphill is very severe with infantry, though. Desert makes no effect in heavy armoured units. Troops with plate mail in summer+desert keep fresh for ages. Light troops tire faster than heavy units in desert because they are not "hardy". But this is another thread...
Ok last offtopic: Yes, so many isn't as it should be. I would test that cases as early as I can. And in the blog they told us, that all is fine. :embarassed:
EDIT: ups I should read more the other threads, sry for double posting, but less time last weeks for reading in forums.
Go buy 2 trained horses, get 4 of ur freinds together and 2 of u on the horses charge down the other 3 head on and see what happens. The only problem I see with cav is that theu nit sizes are too big compared to infantry. In a battle there'd be 40,000 infantry to 7,000 knights.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-07-2006, 11:47
Go buy 2 trained horses, get 4 of ur freinds together and 2 of u on the horses charge down the other 3 head on and see what happens. The only problem I see with cav is that theu nit sizes are too big compared to infantry. In a battle there'd be 40,000 infantry to 7,000 knights.
No in MTW VI the size was also 60 men INF and 40 men cav. The problem is, that the charge of the cav is extrem overpowered. It seems to be, that a) CA hate all old players or b) they haven't tested this error.
the second one, or they just do not understand that charge with a cav is extremely easy. If they need help to test, they have just to ask it.
the second one, or they just do not understand that charge with a cav is extremely easy. If they need help to test, they have just to ask it.
CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-07-2006, 15:29
CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.
Which serious TW Gamer wants such kill rates? And another question. Why they have implemented so many units then. At the moment, you need only cav. The other units are useless.
The other units are useless.
Elephant units as well?
CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.
well so they can make the cavs prices very very high or pikes avaliable for more factions in high era, and swords stronger vs pikes. A good solution for a good balance.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-07-2006, 17:04
The other (not cav) units are useless.
Elephant units as well?
Elephants are not Cav? :laugh4:
Well, in many games elepfants are forbidden like art. But if somebody used them, they were overpowered too imo. But I will test them against a heavy sword inf and cav.
EDIT: I tested elephants. They are the hell. They fought against 2 v3 heavy swords and killed both units easily: :(
well so they can make the cavs prices very very high or pikes avaliable for more factions in high era, and swords stronger vs pikes. A good solution for a good balance.
It's the unformed charge that's there to satisfy players like you or me or my entire clan. The formed charge is there for players who want overpowered cavalry. Apparently, CA has marketing research that indicates a lot of players want overpowered cavalry. How are you going to fight that? Even if you got 500 or 1000 players to sign a petition requesting that each faction be given infantry units that can stop cavalry frontally, they wouldn't consider it because they no longer accept petitions.
showing to the CA marketing that you can beat 20 infantry units with 6 cav units.
Elephant units as well?
Elephants are not Cav?
This is not the point. Have you not notice the sarcasm in my post?~;)
As far I know someone is aware of this issues. Let's see what the patch will bring.
In reality there was very few occasions in middle ages that spears won against cavalry on the open field (days of phalanxes were forgoten in those days). Not to mention how real medieval armies look like, etc.
I don't know for any game (from the times when chess was invented) which would involve hisotrical accuracy, realism and gameplay on the highest level. There might be few games which managed to address first two issue but then the third one was dull or vice versa. This goes for STW as well. I don't deny it's gameplay value, but when talking from historical point of view, in reality things were a bit different.
I would like to see that cavalry units should be more expensive and strong spear unit should be able to win against cavalry unit.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-08-2006, 09:53
This is not the point. Have you not notice the sarcasm in my post?~;)
Aeh sry :wall: :laugh4: And I tested the elephants and that made me more frustrated.
In reality there was very few occasions in middle ages that spears won against cavalry on the open field (days of phalanxes were forgoten in those days). Not to mention how real medieval armies look like, etc.
A game don't must be uber realistic, the most important is the fun. The most fun is in my opinion
swords beat spears and cav (if they hit them frontal)
cav beat swords (from side or back) and make spears fear if hit the hit came from rear
spears beat cav (frontal att) and lose against swords.
But I think such things I don't need to tell you :) But CA should read this or the marketing department, but I am sure the marketing department isn't interested in playing M2TW. :help:
CeltiberoMordred
12-08-2006, 13:26
Anyways, something seems bugged, because even a supposed "weak" cavalry with a charge of 2-3 can erase an entire infantry unit in one second. As I said, it looks to me a new swipe effect.
And yes, even 5 cavalry can beat a 20 infantry army, and with half cost.
If CA wants these powerful cavalry charges, their cost should be increased a lot (which I don't like at all - a bad solution imho, tell me what can we do with eastern armies).
After the patch it can be even worse, because I think cavalry won't switch to swords and will keep their lances against missile units, making charges even stronger.
I think its a new swipe effect too, because hobilars tear through anything in a frontal charge too, which can't be the case. Charge bonus don't really seem at all important unless 80% of a unit dead isn't enough for you.
A game don't must be uber realistic, the most important is the fun.
Ah Die_Hard yet again you have not been reading my post carefuly.
I don't know for any game (from the times when chess was invented) which would involve hisotrical accuracy, realism and gameplay on the highest level. There might be few games which managed to address first two issue but then the third one was dull or vice versa. :yes:
If we summerize issue so far:
- lag
- cavalry charge
- spear issue
- musket effect
- "zoom to general's death"
If only this five things are going to be addressed it would be excellent - for a start. Anything else anyone would like to add - a bug or exploit?
Pikes too much strong vs Swords
CeltiberoMordred
12-09-2006, 12:05
Interesting thread about cavalry and infantry:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74417
Orda Khan
12-09-2006, 13:39
Anyways, something seems bugged, because even a supposed "weak" cavalry with a charge of 2-3 can erase an entire infantry unit in one second. As I said, it looks to me a new swipe effect.
And yes, even 5 cavalry can beat a 20 infantry army, and with half cost.
If CA wants these powerful cavalry charges, their cost should be increased a lot (which I don't like at all - a bad solution imho, tell me what can we do with eastern armies).
After the patch it can be even worse, because I think cavalry won't switch to swords and will keep their lances against missile units, making charges even stronger.
Certainly looks more like a bug than a feature
.......Orda
Sparkythefly
12-09-2006, 18:45
everything i understand says that calvary have an incredibly powerful charge but aren't so great in melee, so they retreat charge retreat, so instead of allowing them to do this have you ever considered forcing them to fight?
example of what i might do
knowing as i do that if calvary run into another calvary unit i know how to stop a calvary charge, now what unit to use, lets go with hobilars, sure there a crappy unit but there job is to absorb a charge not fight, you can buy tons of these things for nothing,
ok now i know how to stop the charge, now what to fight them with, lets go with any of the billmen there all like 13 attack and all the different versions have armour piercing and some spear bonus's against calvary. ok now i've got them stopped and fighting how do i prevent them from just leaving and charging again, park good calvary behind your infantry, once they try and retreat, go skirmish formation and charge your own horses at them, if they run use your longbowmen to pound them,
but not all factions are the same so what about some different ones, horse archers make good charge absorbers, they can force the charge with there shots, and then once there charge is broken move in with infantry,
but what if you dont just want the unit absorbing the charge to be dead on impact, well try a hide anywhere unit like assassins or hassashin to catch them by surprise while there chasing another unit but too far away to have started a charge, or how about instead of forming up the unit in front of the infantry, you intermix them, now they may break the first line of infantry but then they'll be mired in amongst the infantry, and if they try and retreat the horses go after them, alternatly, use light calvary to move at the last second and ruin that charge, turn your unit in the direction of there weapon and tell them to run, the enemy calvary will turn to compensate and the formed charge will turn into an unformed charge, now pounce on them with infantry.
use elephants to beat the charge at its own game, use hitpoints 2 units to make them charge and not kill a damn thing only wound a unit, and now they dont have any moral gain from the kills as you counterattack, use stakes back to back and wait for them to screw up and charge into them while there going after a unit, use siege engines to kill a few horses and put your infantry behidn them, half the unit charging will be blocked by the siege engines and the charge will become unformed and half the unit won't be fighting.
throw a few peasent units in front of excellent archers a BLOCK of infantry, not a line a line can be overwhelemed on its flanks, a block is 2 or 3 units deep, then get either light calvary or horse archers, if you get horse archers dont fight, let them charge and once the fight starts try to absorb the charge with peasents, and then flank with the horse archers to keep them from retreating.
i'm not trying to be rude but instead of calv are overpowered how about a how to beat those overpowered calv thread :P
sorry but beat an all cav army is just a piece of cake with a balance amy you must just have 4/5 light cav to absorb the charge, pikemen and/or spearmen and even horse archers are excellent.
The only rule is: DON'T TAKE A LOT OF HEAVY INFANTERY OR YOU WILL LOOSE BADLY. (for the max heayv infantery is 3/4).
try to adapt it's not RTW. :shame:
Grey_Fox
12-09-2006, 21:05
A lot of the people have been playing since STW and MTW. We know how to adapt, and we also know how units should work. The cavalry charge is imbalanced.
ElmarkOFear
12-10-2006, 07:14
The problem, as I see it, is all cav units, no matter their cost or charge value can kill most of a foot unit (whether spear, pike or sword) on contact (or within a short time after contact). Heavy cav, like the well armored heavy knight units should be able to kill a lot of units on contact due to their armor, mass, and cost. However, even the cheap, unarmored, light cav units kill the same amount of men as the heavily armored, expensive, knight units during the initial charge. I think this is where the actual problem is.
A light unarmored cav unit should not kill as quickly or as many foot units as a heavy armored cav unit.
Certain factions might as well not be included in MP (like the Aztec faction) if certain changes aren't made to some of the cav units. The Aztecs have no cav units available so nobody will take them if they think a player will bring a mostly-cav army.
Proof that cav is overpowered will soon be easily noticed when you find most of your opponents using mostly-cav armies. Just like in MTW and the knight, sword, pavise crossbow armies you saw all the time. The reason you saw those units was because they were the most powerful in the game. Spears have been nerfed since the very first MTW patch. I do not see them being brought back as a powerful anti-cav unit either, due to what Puzz3D insinuated: CA has determined or believes that the majority of the newer players like having strong cav more than balance.
Another problem is CA has never created two sets of unit stats: One for SP and one for MP. Currently, changes to one will almost always adversely effect the other. CA has always been SP focused, so you will be hardpressed to get any changes which will balance MP, but may unbalance SP. SP still rules.
I can almost imagine what started this idea of high-powered cav during the meetings for M2TW:
Someone asked; "What do you think of when you think of medieval warfare?"
"I think of knights in shiney armor charging down their enemies!"
"Very good Mr. President of Marketing"
"I think of balanced armies and spear units impaling horses and bashing in the knights' skulls!"
"Very good Mr. Wise Guy. I hope you enjoy your next job assignment in the mail room."
:laugh4:
Fact is that you can win the campaign VH VH just using cav units, and I do not think that it is what the marketing wanted. I just think that they are not able to test a game like this one, or maybe they have not tested at all.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-10-2006, 14:06
If we summerize issue so far:
- lag
- cavalry charge
- spear issue
- musket effect
- "zoom to general's death"
If only this five things are going to be addressed it would be excellent - for a start. Anything else anyone would like to add - a bug or exploit?
Your points and these problems :
- Better graphic sprites if you zoom out
- more and better maps.
- The fatigue is too low.
- exhaustion bars.
And then the mp mode would be playable. ATM a cwc tournament would be CCC (cav charge competition) :laugh4:
CeltiberoMordred
12-10-2006, 14:39
Even cavalry can defeat pikes, you just have to click behind them instead of charging. Cavalry will not suffer casualties at all due to the impact and everybody will switch to swords. Cavalry wins. Sad.
CeltiberoMordred
12-10-2006, 15:29
If we summerize issue so far:
- lag
- cavalry charge
- spear issue
- musket effect
- "zoom to general's death"
If only this five things are going to be addressed it would be excellent - for a start. Anything else anyone would like to add - a bug or exploit?
Check this one: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1331589&postcount=31
NihilisticCow
12-10-2006, 16:12
"zoom to general's death"
Aonar/Vorcid/Vestorius/Lionnreach (tell me if I missed one ~;p ), do you mean that oh so useful cutscene in the middle of a battle that is really welcome at the most crucial moments? If you do, if you change event_cutscenes to 0 in the medieval2.preference.cfg file it seems to go away.
if you change event_cutscenes to 0 in the medieval2.preference.cfg file it seems to go away
Thank you for this info.
Cav and pikes are balanced. in a 10k game, 8 chiv knights vs 12 armoured sgts, the armored sgts own all.
Pikes are easy to beat... just dont charge them head on noobs.
RTKMercurius
12-15-2006, 09:41
If you do, if you change event_cutscenes to 0 in the medieval2.preference.cfg file it seems to go away.
You could mention the need to open with notepad, instead of letting me :wall: ... . :embarassed:
NihilisticCow
12-15-2006, 10:52
You could mention the need to open with notepad, instead of letting me :wall: ... . :embarassed:
You didn't actually think it might have been a Microsoft Office Outlook Configuration file did you? Poor Mercy. ~;)
ElmarkOFear
12-15-2006, 11:01
Thanks! I have been wanting to get rid of that annoying break in the action since I have been playing. Didn't know what line to change though! :)
RTKMercurius
12-15-2006, 14:05
Anyone know what the "advanced stats" pref is?
Fact is that you can win the campaign VH VH just using cav units, and I do not think that it is what the marketing wanted. I just think that they are not able to test a game like this one, or maybe they have not tested at all.
If you have the money to afford only cav then it's in fact a superior army. Mongols conquered half the world with all cav, duhh.
IMO, some light cavs should have more charge value like alans used to be. Light cavs should be taking care of spears which are practically peasants.
akinkhoo
12-16-2006, 09:13
well, i think there is nothing wrong with having powerful heavy cavalry... they were the tank of the past, but i think they are far too cheap compare to infantry.
the heavy cavalry are only slightly more expensive than their foot counterpart and that is just illogical because you need to breed, groom, feed and house the warhorses; only the very wealthy could afford keeping 1000 of warhorses. i think if the cost of horses are raise, it will force players to adopt a more balance force.
as for the charge, i think they turn all the heavy cavalry into lancer-like units. they could have made them more specialize; their stat are almost all the same, making it fairly borring.
i don't want them to raise or lower the charge, but rather i hope they make the spearman more powerful instead, and the peasant shouldn't be able to kick they butt either! :P
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-16-2006, 14:07
well, i think there is nothing wrong with having powerful heavy cavalry... they were the tank of the past, but i think they are far too cheap compare to infantry.
the heavy cavalry are only slightly more expensive than their foot counterpart and that is just illogical because you need to breed, groom, feed and house the warhorses; only the very wealthy could afford keeping 1000 of warhorses. i think if the cost of horses are raise, it will force players to adopt a more balance force.
as for the charge, i think they turn all the heavy cavalry into lancer-like units. they could have made them more specialize; their stat are almost all the same, making it fairly borring.
i don't want them to raise or lower the charge, but rather i hope they make the spearman more powerful instead, and the peasant shouldn't be able to kick they butt either! :P
No No. It cannot be that after one second a unit is killed. That kills the MP mode. It doesn't matter, how much this cav cost. They must balance the game. Swords and spears must win, if cav attack the front side. It cannot be that they kill 60 swords in 1 second. This is crap. WHere is the tactic?? If I made a mistake, i cannot try to help my unit. It is lost in one second. Very annoying. And spears. pfff. THey must stay to be effective. But which vet attacks spears with cav head on?? I agree with you that the spears have also to win against cav, but Sword must win too. Only back or side flanks by cav should be effective. But please no 20 or 30 kills. Thats too much. CA play MTW Vi. There it is ok.
At the moment it is totally imbalanced. It is an action game. Click fast, dont think, no need to flank. boooooooooooooring.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
RTKMercurius
12-16-2006, 14:45
The fact that more than a dozen units are bugged to make them unable to attack cav is more a problem than the relative strength of the cav....
No No. It cannot be that after one second a unit is killed. That kills the MP mode. It doesn't matter, how much this cav cost. They must balance the game. Swords and spears must win, if cav attack the front side. It cannot be that they kill 60 swords in 1 second. This is crap. WHere is the tactic?? If I made a mistake, i cannot try to help my unit. It is lost in one second. Very annoying. And spears. pfff. THey must stay to be effective. But which vet attacks spears with cav head on?? I agree with you that the spears have also to win against cav, but Sword must win too. Only back or side flanks by cav should be effective. But please no 20 or 30 kills. Thats too much. CA play MTW Vi. There it is ok.
At the moment it is totally imbalanced. It is an action game. Click fast, dont think, no need to flank. boooooooooooooring.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered as the only advantage cav would have would be manouvreability to flank which would be taken away in tha circumstance.
atm if you were to really try your "click fast, don't think, no need to flank" *tactic* you'd get absolutely slaughtered as flanking is still one of the main ways to win. unless ofc your playing someone that doesn't know how to play in which case one could destroy their entire army frontally with 6-8 heavy cav (which btw i've actually done in a 2v2 and destroyed both opponents almost singlehandedly as they were unfamiliar how to counter mass cav) which is easily beatable in a multitude of ways.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-16-2006, 15:36
Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered
FALSE. Cav has one BIG advantage. It is fast or faster than sword or spears. Swords should win against every unit in 1vs1. But Cav can move fast around the line and can FLANK the enemy. There are not a strong unit in fighting 1vs1, they are FASTER than the others. They go to the FLANK or BACK and make the enemy FEAR and ROUT the enemy. That are the orders of cav. And NOT to kill 60 MEN in 1 SECOND. AND i BET, that isn't a FEATURE, it is laziness to make it right. Since RTW they are NOT be able to make it RIGHT.
But the "new" CA hasn't ever played MTW Vi or they should know it :wall: :wall: :wall:
If i find the time, I will record a MTW Vi battle to show you and CA/Sega what I mean.
Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered as the only advantage cav would have would be manouvreability to flank which would be taken away in tha circumstance.
The box should be defeatable by shooting into it. If a faction has been given spears and shooters that are so good that the box can't be defeated that way, then the faction hasn't been properly balanced. Every tactic should have an effective counter tactic, and every unit an effective counter unit. That's what is meant by balance.
Orda Khan
12-16-2006, 17:18
The box should be defeatable by shooting into it.
It is, by simply switching FAW off and targeting the backs of units after you have either killed or decimated the archers.
The cav charge strength seems random to me, whether it is formed or not. It just appears buggy and I don't think the patch has addressed this or many other MP issues
......Orda
The box should be defeatable by shooting into it. If a faction has been given spears and shooters that are so good that the box can't be defeated that way, then the faction hasn't been properly balanced. Every tactic should have an effective counter tactic, and every unit an effective counter unit. That's what is meant by balance.
Not if the person in the box has 8 arch and 12 inf as they don't have to worry about buying their own cav. So they'll have a severe numerical advantage even with equal inf/arch stats and price wise if cav didn't do anything much then u couldn't beat that against a good player. Also if the faction hasn't been properly balanced for cav being weak then the factions will become even more cloned and similar than they are now.
Thats just one tactic that if your weakened state of cav was implemented, would be able to decimate a *balanced* army.
BTW atm i've found a counter unit/units for every other unit except one, however that one unit can be easily beaten by basic tactics as a whole army.
Not if the person in the box has 8 arch and 12 inf as they don't have to worry about buying their own cav. So they'll have a severe numerical advantage even with equal inf/arch stats and price wise if cav didn't do anything much then u couldn't beat that against a good player.
The attacker shouldn't need cav to beat the box, and it doesn't make much sense that you would use cav to beat an anti-cav formation. The box should fail because the men in the box are packed closer together and will suffer higher casualty rate than the men on the outside who are shooting into the box and who can go into loose formation as well. The men inside can also be subjected to enfilade fire and rear fire. Low trajectory, high penetrating weapons such as xbows and guns should be especially dangerous for the box. In STW, a box is easily defeated since there are a lot of secondary hits (back kills) by guns on deep formations. As the shootout progresses, the box defender will loose melee strength, and eventually he won't be strong enough to win the melee. That kind of game mechanic can also be used effectively against corner campers.
The game designer can adjust the effectiveness of secondary hits, enfilade fire, rear fire and loose formation so that the attacker doesn't have to take as many shooters as the box defender. However, if the shooters are cheap and the cav expensive, it might be more effective to take the same number of shooters. In any case, with this game dynamic the box will disappear from play, and that will open up the game for cavalry. You can have this and still have an infantry unit in the game that's effective in stopping cavalry frontally. I know this because it works very well in Samurai Wars. The spear infantry can kill cav, but they are less mobile and that's an important factor favoring the cav when the gameplay opens up and gets away from static formations.
The problem I see with having cav defeat static formations is that the game will gravitate toward cavalry dominated armies. After all, the cav is going to be even more effective in an open game where mobility is important. We put a tremendous amount of work into balancing Samurai Wars so that cav didn't dominate the gameplay, and yet cav is highly effective. Players who take no cav are at a disadvantage due to lower mobility. Despite the apparent simplicity of only having 14 units in Samurai Wars, the gameplay is complex because there are three RPS systems functioning which have been balanced relative to one another.
These three RPS systems are not black and white like they are in many RTS games, but they are strong enough that spear inf can stop cav. The anti-cav bonus for the spear weapon is actually the only weapon type bonus used in Samurai Wars. We don't use the +1 combat bonus that swords get over spears in MTW/VI. That bonus is unnecessary since our swords beat spears, but they cost more. It's a more intuitive system because you can just look at the cost of the unit to ascertain which unit will win a particular matchup. The wraparound of the cheap spears and expensive cav occurs with the spear anti-cav bonus which is what stops cav from dominating the gameplay. That gives us a nice combined arms gameplay.
Thats just one tactic that if your weakened state of cav was implemented, would be able to decimate a *balanced* army.
I'm not advocating weak cav. I'm advocating an infantry unit that can stop cav and which is cheaper than the cav it stops by at least a factor of 2. The infantry unit has to be cheaper because it has less mobility than cav. You also want to leave some space in the cost system so that you can have some medium cost units that beat the unit that stops cav.
I'm not advocating that a balanced army should beat all other armies. Unbalanced armies can beat balanced armies, but there should exist counter armies to those unbalanced armies. That makes army purchasing interesting because you are trying to anticipate what kind of army your opponent is taking. If your opponent becomes predictable in his unbalanced army type, you can drive him away from choosing that army by taking a counter army. This will tend to drive the armies used back toward more balanced types, but not necessarily fully balanced. We see this in Samurai Wars all the time. Players skew their army to emphasize either swords or spears or shooters or cav depending on their style of play or what they think their opponent will take or the map terrain, but they have learned not to go too far with this because effective counter armies exist. Unfortunately, we have the tax on more than 4 of one type which limits what players can choose. We don't need this restriction in Samurai Wars. That the tax has reappeared in M2TW is a crutch designed to reduce the amount of effort put into play balancing.
BTW atm i've found a counter unit/units for every other unit except one, however that one unit can be easily beaten by basic tactics as a whole army.
That's promising. Unfortunately, the robust statistical battle engine of the earlier games has been gutted. The new 3d engine is not advanced enough to actually simulate combat. The older statistical engine does a better job.
But the "new" CA hasn't ever played MTW Vi or they should know it :wall: :wall: :wall:
Palamedes started to play MTW well before VI came out. By that time he was a competent tourney player and during VI he was part of a team that was undefeated in the prime MTW/VI tourney vs the best clans.
If i find the time, I will record a MTW Vi battle to show you and CA/Sega what I mean.
I am sure Palamedes still has his replays but thx the offer. On the other hand I can send you MTW/VI replays with Pala playing, if you are interested.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-20-2006, 10:14
Palamedes started to play MTW well before VI came out. By that time he was a competent tourney player and during VI he was part of a team that was undefeated in the prime MTW/VI tourney vs the best clans.
I am sure Palamedes still has his replays but thx the offer. On the other hand I can send you MTW/VI replays with Pala playing, if you are interested.
I guess, Palamedes is the last one from old times. I have read, that only some graphic artists are left from the old MTW developer team.
I go back to MTW Vi. Yesterday there was some gamers online. 2 Aggony, 1 Hunter, GO Clan, Zaphod, Scurvy and many more. Okay, there will not be great tournaments. But some matches at evening are enough for me.
EDIT: And I am annoyed because of the Developer Blogs. They have written before the game was released, that anything is fine in multiplayer mode. And yes, Palamedes has written it. But he should has known already, that it isn't the case. I feel messed around.
On the other hand I can send you MTW/VI replays with Pala playing, if you are interested.
If you have some, I would be really interested in. I want to see, how they have played some years ago and compare with matches from last times. You can write to heerbann@gmx.de
Thank you in advance.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
Keith_the_Great
12-22-2006, 19:57
I realize this might not help and doesn't solve the overpowered "bugged" cav problem BUT i think its worth mentioning,
Armoured Sergeants in Guard mode, with Retinue Longbow at (sergeants) rear using their special Ability (sharped stakes),
by the time the cav reach your sergeants the cav unit has 10% loses (from missile fire) on impact, the sergeants take about 40% loses because the left and right flanks of the cav run into the stakes,"which are at the rear of sergs) the cav unit should have about 30% loses,
then attack cav unit with longbow men,
you find that the cav will then withdraw, having suffered 80% loses.
armoured sergeants will still have 90% loses BUT the cav unit has been beaten!!!
ok its still 2 vs 1 and still totally unbalanced
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
12-22-2006, 20:16
I realize this might not help and doesn't solve the overpowered "bugged" cav problem BUT i think its worth mentioning,
Armoured Sergeants in Guard mode, with Retinue Longbow at (sergeants) rear using their special Ability (sharped stakes),
by the time the cav reach your sergeants the cav unit has 10% loses (from missile fire) on impact, the sergeants take about 40% loses because the left and right flanks of the cav run into the stakes,"which are at the rear of sergs) the cav unit should have about 30% loses,
then attack cav unit with longbow men,
you find that the cav will then withdraw, having suffered 80% loses.
armoured sergeants will still have 90% loses BUT the cav unit has been beaten!!!
ok its still 2 vs 1 and still totally unbalanced
The idea sounds good, but if we see, that the enemy has build these stakes, my team move on the flank of the enemy. He has to rotate too and the stakes are useless. These stakes are very useless feature unless the enemy has a position, that I can attack only from one way. But then he has a perfect position anyway.
I know I'm not one to talk, being a neophyte, noob, newb, and whatever other demeaning name you can throw at me.
But...Have you guys played with huge settings? Cav doesn't seem too overpowered with huge units, but there is still a rather powerful charge. The problem with the light cav equalling the heavy in charge capability is inescapable however. Vardariotai charge = poo for spearmen.
after several games, I think the cavalery isn't overpowered ok the charge is very powerfull but if you can disrupt the cavalery charge with other cavalery and charge with spearmen next you'll will have always the avantage.
all cav army (except perhaps mongols and timurids) are only effective against noobs
all heavy infantery cannot beat a cav army
A balance army can win against everybody.
CeltiberoMordred
12-24-2006, 12:15
after several games, I think the cavalery isn't overpowered ok the charge is very powerfull but if you can disrupt the cavalery charge with other cavalery and charge with spearmen next you'll will have always the avantage.
all cav army (except perhaps mongols and timurids) are only effective against noobs
all heavy infantery cannot beat a cav army
A balance army can win against everybody.
If you need 2 units to counter 1 single unit it's a disadvantage. In addition, both must be close to the other.
In an extreme situation, you would need 10 cavalry + 10 spears to counter 10 cavalry units.
Now tell me how you stop the other 10 enemy units.
If you need 2 units to counter 1 single unit it's a disadvantage. In addition, both must be close to the other.
In an extreme situation, you would need 10 cavalry + 10 spears to counter 10 cavalry units.
.
false only 3/4 cavaleries and 4/5 spearmen are need to counter 10 cavaleries because your cavaleries is just here to disrupt the cavalery charge, block the cavalery in the hand to hand and wait the spearmen.
The spearmen are the real cavalery killer but they are very vulnerable against cavalery charge
"Now tell me how you stop the other 10 enemy units"
I speak only for a 10k game because it's the most balance game:
10 cavalery units=10K
4 cavaleriy and 5 spearmen =6500
CeltiberoMordred
12-24-2006, 14:38
false only 3/4 cavaleries and 4/5 spearmen are need to counter 10 cavaleries because your cavaleries is just here to disrupt the cavalery charge, block the cavalery in the hand to hand and wait the spearmen.
The spearmen are the real cavalery killer but they are very vulnerable against cavalery charge
"Now tell me how you stop the other 10 enemy units"
I speak only for a 10k game because it's the most balance game:
10 cavalery units=10K
4 cavaleriy and 5 spearmen =6500
If you think that 3-4 cavalry units are enough to block 10 cav units, then I don't find the reason to continue this discussion. You win.
And for your info, you can purchase 10 cav units for 5200 florins or less with many factions. With English, you can even get those 10 cav units for less than 4000 florins.
Regards.
Keith_the_Great
12-24-2006, 19:48
Darsh i understand where your coming from here, and at first glance, it seems like a good idea BUT as i've posted ealier and as CeltiberoMordred has pointed out
If you need 2 units to counter 1 single unit it's a disadvantage. In addition, both must be close to the other.
it is a strategical disadvantage :juggle2:
BUT the real problem with this strategy is unit cost, if there was a balanced uint cost, then you could work the 2:1 ratio to your advantage, (depending on ones ability)
i personnally would enjoy the opportunity to field 2:1 ratio inf vs 10 or so cav opponent, it would be challaging :yes:
Seikales
01-17-2007, 21:07
I hope this will post.. I have tried to post two other ones, just did not work. Perhaps I made a mistake of changing the Title...
Anyhow, I believe the heavy cavalry charge is a bit overdone in the game.
Yet, historical evidence proves that only two or three units were realy useful at those times. Armored knights (cav or inf), trained pikemen (kind of regular army), and xbowmen (late period gunpowder units). Each faction then might have some distinct units that are exceptions to the above classification, e.g. the English Longbows, who were realy well-trained professional archers (it is not easy to use the longbow, and not useful in hunting anyhow) with realy powerful bows with well-fletched arrows that even penetrated earlier knights armor with ease (French army messed up with Knights were slaughtered by ranks of English longbowmen to such a degree that all their charges eventualy broke).
The Knights are the most powerful unit of all. And game makes a big mistake of letting the factions recruit them in numbers. They are mostly nobilty and realy strong, big men. You won't just walk around and get people and train them to be knights. Their numbers should be limited.
The pikeman unit was esspecialy designed to hold the charges at bay, to allow other units to tangle with the Knights, either taken them down with Halberds or Long Swords, or shooting them at close range with Xbows. Pikeman can not deal with a soft charge sword melee type of attack because the length of the pike simply makes them useless in close quarters. The fact that they switch to swords is pointless and absurd, because they would not even know the sharp end of it, let alone use it effectively against the Knight.
However, armies used pikes in formation with other units, either behind or alongside them. Or to cover ground at critical places, maybe even to cover the retreat of their own cavalry (Knights had to often come back and get new lances/weapons to do another charge. The lance was most times abandoned after the initial strike cause it went deep into the target). So, to expect a pikeman unit stand ground to Knights in melee is absurd, just as like to see Knights charge to pikeman. The Knights simply would disregard orders (not a very uncommon thing in history).
So what are all other units for? Simple.. Break formations, open spaces, and if possible finish their auxiliary units like xbow. javelins. Once the formation is broken, all infantry at the time were easy prey for even simple light-cavalry because of the speed factor and training difference.
Please review the game in this view once more if you will.
Have fun :book:
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
01-19-2007, 11:31
I hope this will post.. I have tried to post two other ones, just did not work. Perhaps I made a mistake of changing the Title...
Anyhow, I believe the heavy cavalry charge is a bit overdone in the game.
Yet, historical evidence proves that only two or three units were realy useful at those times. Armored knights (cav or inf), trained pikemen (kind of regular army), and xbowmen (late period gunpowder units). Each faction then might have some distinct units that are exceptions to the above classification, e.g. the English Longbows, who were realy well-trained professional archers (it is not easy to use the longbow, and not useful in hunting anyhow) with realy powerful bows with well-fletched arrows that even penetrated earlier knights armor with ease (French army messed up with Knights were slaughtered by ranks of English longbowmen to such a degree that all their charges eventualy broke).
The Knights are the most powerful unit of all. And game makes a big mistake of letting the factions recruit them in numbers. They are mostly nobilty and realy strong, big men. You won't just walk around and get people and train them to be knights. Their numbers should be limited.
The pikeman unit was esspecialy designed to hold the charges at bay, to allow other units to tangle with the Knights, either taken them down with Halberds or Long Swords, or shooting them at close range with Xbows. Pikeman can not deal with a soft charge sword melee type of attack because the length of the pike simply makes them useless in close quarters. The fact that they switch to swords is pointless and absurd, because they would not even know the sharp end of it, let alone use it effectively against the Knight.
However, armies used pikes in formation with other units, either behind or alongside them. Or to cover ground at critical places, maybe even to cover the retreat of their own cavalry (Knights had to often come back and get new lances/weapons to do another charge. The lance was most times abandoned after the initial strike cause it went deep into the target). So, to expect a pikeman unit stand ground to Knights in melee is absurd, just as like to see Knights charge to pikeman. The Knights simply would disregard orders (not a very uncommon thing in history).
So what are all other units for? Simple.. Break formations, open spaces, and if possible finish their auxiliary units like xbow. javelins. Once the formation is broken, all infantry at the time were easy prey for even simple light-cavalry because of the speed factor and training difference.
Please review the game in this view once more if you will.
Have fun :book:
That sounds all right. But MTW2 doesn't care for that differents. There are only CAV units, that charge most units to hell and there are nonCAV units, tons of bugs and presented with a confusing graphics and horrible interface with arcade style unit informations. MTW3 will be an first person shooter or Rayman jump and run.
But this evening you should all be in MTW VI. At 20:30GMT+1 will be some old players online.
Kenchi_Shaka
01-25-2007, 20:27
difference between history and mtw2 is that there were real humans, in mtw2 they are only animated.
in history often tenthousands fought in a battle, in tw its never more than some thousand.
in history there were many knights only armies, including squires and other auxilairy units.
there were only infantry armies also or mixed armies and the outcome of battles didnt allways depend on the kind of equipment or tactical dispositions only.
i dont think that history is so important in this case. for me it just adds some atmosphere to the game.
for the sake of balance i think cavalry should beat swords also when charging frontaly, swords should beat spears and spears should beat cav.
i think the uberness of cav is the result of bugs.
an other thing is that most of the times ppl play steppe wich gives an other advantage to cavalry.
shaka
pike master
01-26-2007, 07:07
most battles were probably more like the size of the ones we play. only the major battles in history do we see those massive armies coming together. im glad they aint super big battles. my computer can only handle so much:)
Kenchi_Shaka
01-26-2007, 09:56
i didnt plead for bigger tw battles, i jus wanted to say that the size of a battle makes a difference.
alltho i wouldnt mind if the program and the pcs could handle bigger battles, more and bigger units and larger battle fields.
shaka
I think that the engine can handle bigger battles, but that our PC's just can't. I believe that in that program Time Commanders on TV they also had huge armies, which we didn't have in RTW
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