Moral penalty when general dies [Archive]

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Wolf_Kyolic

12-31-2006, 05:33

It is way too much no? You loose the battle you are winning when he dies. Yes Generals dead is never favourable in TW, but its effect is a bit too exaggerated now in M2TW.

I guess.

Warluster

12-31-2006, 06:20

Well if you were being led by an awesome General, and he got killed somehow, you'd feel sorry, wouldn't ya?

Warluster

12-31-2006, 06:21

What I am saying is that it is sort of realistic, but the morale penalty should be equal to the Generals command stars. If the command stars are really high then they lose BIG TIME morale, if it is low, not really lost...

tootee

12-31-2006, 07:36

it is fine for me.. it places more caution on when and how to use the general unit.. waste one unit slot for an idling general, or help out in the battle? When and how is the question.

From another angle, credit should go for the one who target the general and killing him, thereby turning a seemingly hopeless battle into victory.. history has many of such.

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

12-31-2006, 12:01

It is way too much no? You loose the battle you are winning when he dies. Yes Generals dead is never favourable in TW, but its effect is a bit too exaggerated now in M2TW.

I guess.

Yes, sometimes the impact is too much. But there are different difficult levels. Maybe it depends on that level?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

12-31-2006, 18:56

I really haven't notice it though. I killed people's generals in games, only to have them beat me (barley). Other Day, I use a Mongol Army that Magyar Khan used against me, and I fought a IPL member, and I barley beat him. We both had 15-30 guys left,and I killed his General and his's men routed soon after..

Denali

12-31-2006, 19:13

Warman you lose anyway, with or without gen :laugh4:

@topic I think its fine, it makes the units with "good morale" more effective. It has a bad influence on peasent-archers or milita units but id say thats the point of it.

Monarch

12-31-2006, 20:04

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

01-01-2007, 01:12

Don't Bring your Chating Rants against me here Deni, or you going on my block list with the other 3 people I stuck on there..

ElmarkOFear

01-01-2007, 01:39

You guys are noobs. If you just make sure your general dies at the very beginning, you don't have to worry about such things later on! :) My general has a very large head, which is easy to shoot. Also, it doesn't help that his family crest was a bullseye. :laugh4:

Monarch

01-01-2007, 13:04

Don't Bring your Chating Rants against me here Deni, or you going on my block list with the other 3 people I stuck on there..

For the 50th time you can't have a block list on a freakin forum :help:

Denali

01-01-2007, 13:28

He probably means the "Ignore" function... :dizzy2:

KrooK

01-01-2007, 14:06

I think penalty for dead general isn't as abd as Kyolic said. For about 30 seconds penalty is quite bad, but later it's smaller.

Aelwyn

01-01-2007, 15:32

agreed. kill them from the start like elmo said. sure, it'll give you a morale penalty in the battle, but it won't be as bad as losing him at a worse time.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

01-01-2007, 16:12

For the 50th time you can't have a block list on a freakin forum :help:

Ever Hear of the Igonre opition? :inquisitive:

and 3 more names to my block list :no:

RTKMercurius

01-01-2007, 18:35

Where do we sign up, Warman? :D jk, jk....

Haven't noticed it being so dramatic, Kyolic... but them maybe I'm daft....

YellowMelon

01-01-2007, 20:05

I usually make him an HA so he can just run around and escape danger if needed.

I have seen times when my gen dies and nothing happens, but I was playing Shields yesterday and he was beating me, and then out of nowhere his gen died and his army chain routed. Every unit. Was good for me but a pain for him :D

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

01-01-2007, 20:11

Where do we sign up, Warman? :D jk, jk....

Haven't noticed it being so dramatic, Kyolic... but them maybe I'm daft....

you cool,so no need to sign up :2thumbsup:

I played against Hannbial from BK and Acunal from CROM, and I killed their gens, but I ended up losing since the morale isn't that strong IMO anyhow..

Demok

01-02-2007, 04:48

I have never noticed the gen dieing being a problem for me.

RtkBedivere

01-02-2007, 05:05

I believe a large factor in this is the state of your troops. If they are fresh they arent going ot mind losing a general to much but the tired/exhusted moral penalties will piggyback with that of losing a general to cause a chain.

My suggestion is just be careful with him. Dont put him somewhere he will die easliy if any of your troops are wavering or shaken. (duh)

-Silent-Someguy

01-02-2007, 10:31

A generals death will never make you lose if ur winning at medium diff Probably not even at Very hard diff. You are probably losing/evenly matched when ur gen dies for it to cause you to lose.

RTKBarrett

01-02-2007, 19:33

I think the reaction to a generals death is fine... i always use a general bodyguard nowadays anyway. Difference between these bodyguards and ones from bi/rome for example though is that there is a chance the general will die first out of the whole unit?! that really never happened until mtw2 for me...
I would charge the flank and BOOM a 21 man unit bodyguard goes down to 19 and the general was one of the casualties...

Cheetah

01-03-2007, 02:11

Good morale troops like DCK will fight on even if your gen dies. So if your troops routed then either your troops had some other morale penalties or you had non-elite (like militia) troops. (or both ~;) )

RTKBarrett

01-04-2007, 05:46

To what extent should a generals death effect a different level of troop though?
With his death should all militia troops be wavering/routing instantly?
Should better/more experienced units such as DCK be able to hold with no immediate effects, and for how long...

sapi

01-04-2007, 06:42

Militia should break - it's that simple...

Nem

01-05-2007, 01:07

Militia should break - it's that simple...

A Gens death should never auto rout any unit automatically.

What if a full strength fresh militia unit is fighting an understrength fatigued unit of a similar type? to have it rout while winning is totally out of balance and unrealistic.

The morale penalty for a gens death should always be linked to other factor aswell.

KenchiNem

Demok

01-05-2007, 01:13

Fenix7

01-05-2007, 19:05

Why to be worried about your general's death at all? If your first thought is that you have lost befor the match even started, why to bother if general is going to die anyway? In your mind You have already decided that you are going to lose.

Lao Tze (Tao Te Ching), Sun Tzu (Art of War) and many others. Many are familiar with this books or have even memorized all their quotes and statements, but there are few who ''understand'' them.

I agree that general's deat causing your army to rout is out of balance and unrealistic and on the other hand we should not negelect that there are other important issues and if they are fixed they will bring a lot more realism into the game.

Nem

01-06-2007, 01:33

Lao Tze (Tao Te Ching), Sun Tzu (Art of War) and many others. Many are familiar with this books or have even memorized all their quotes and statements, but there are few who ''understand'' them.

What? Sun Tzu's book discusses strategy, not tactics. The Art of War has absolutely no relevance to the moral penalty of a Gen. You should re-read the last part of your quote as you are not one of the few.

The few who understand the where people like Hannibal, Nelson, Julius Caesar etc, not the likes of us.

Wolf_Kyolic

01-06-2007, 10:19

I was playing Shields yesterday and he was beating me, and then out of nowhere his gen died and his army chain routed. Every unit. Was good for me but a pain for him :D

That's what I mean. Happens too much in mtw2.

Fenix7

01-06-2007, 14:28

What? Sun Tzu's book discusses strategy, not tactics. The Art of War has absolutely no relevance to the moral penalty of a Gen. You should re-read the last part of your quote as you are not one of the few.

Nem if you go through the words I wrote then you might notice that when I mentioned The Art of War I didn't have in mind anything with moral penalty of a Gen and as well I have no where mentioned that Sun Tuz's book is discussing tactics. This is how your understanded and interpreted my words. Besides you have left out the Lao Tze.

And Sun Tzu book is not only about strategy. It is a lot more then this.That's the reason why I've mentioned that few understand it.

The few who understand the where people like Hannibal, Nelson, Julius Caesar etc, not the likes of us.

They probably never even heard about Sun Tzu. And beside Hannibal, all others like Aleksander, Caesar, Nelson and many others known in western history have more fortune that many want to admit.

Those who understand it were people like Miyamoto Musashi, and many other martial artist or warriors if you like. There are as well people who live today and they DO understand those words. Of course there is very few of them as mentioned.

Sun Tzu was a martial artist in first place. Befor you want to understand the way of massive battles, you need to understand the situation when you are facing one opponent. Is there any differences between two opponents or two armies? When you are facing many opponents imagine as you are fighting one and when you are facing one opponent imagine as you are fighting many.

I was playing Shields yesterday and he was beating me, and then out of nowhere his gen died and his army chain routed. Every unit. Was good for me but a pain for him :D

I know the feeling Shields. :clown:

Lavos

01-06-2007, 22:42

Eh, Chinese and tactics, they had great military philosophers but when it came to practice, they always got their buts kicked, first by Koreans then by Mongols.
Only reason Sun is being tought at military academies is becouse his teachings are theoretical and can be translated through time to modern warefare. Actual military strategy books and reports of the time (byzanitne, turkish...), can't be used now becuse they specificaly state what forces and strategies to use in what situation, but at the time wroten they all were much more usefull than theory. Its same with Clausewitz and Marchiavelli, great theory, but when they it comes to battle it leaves everything open.

Fenix7

01-06-2007, 23:57

Only reason Sun is being tought at military academies is becouse his teachings are theoretical and can be translated through time to modern warefare.

I would not refer to them as theories.

but when they it comes to battle it leaves everything open.

Like everything else in life. Like the death of your general or not.

p.s. Lavos few days ago I've sent you an e-mail. Any possibility that you could send me your reply on it?

Lavos

01-07-2007, 19:17

I expressed myself badly all books on warfare are theory, this is a fact. Point I wanted to make is that some just frankly tell more how warfare was organised. Just compare Sun Tzu to Vegetius or Burnold, and you'll see what I'm talking about. http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war

While Sun tells general to: '' Throw his soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth their uttermost strength.'' Vegetius teches him about selecting recruits, keeping army healthy, how to deploy, and among other, where a general should be in battle.

Now, while were at that, and before going way too far from topic, (and putting Samurai Wars in bolds in every second sentance), let me just state that I also don't like how generals death can chainrout your whole army, while some other time it appears like nothing has happened.

Cheetah

01-07-2007, 21:52

It is very simple IMO. If your men are steady then nothing happens when your general dies (except that they will drop to "wavering" but they will fight on and later likely to recover to steady). If however your men were already shaken or wavering then your general's death will chainrout those units. Of course you will get shaken or wavering if you already have other morale penalties like being charged, under fire, heavily depleated, etc.
So you should always keep an eye on the moral of your troops and adjust the "bravery" of your general accordingly.
In general the sooner he dies the less likely that it will have any effect (as your men be are expected to be still steady). On the other hand if he dies in the later "last man standing" phase of the battle then indeed it can chainrout your army (as your men are likely to have several other moral penalties at this stage).

RTKDinadan

01-08-2007, 15:18

What? Sun Tzu's book discusses strategy, not tactics. The Art of War has absolutely no relevance to the moral penalty of a Gen.

You're wrong on both accounts. Sun Tzu does talk about stuff on the tactical level, though the focus is what we'd consider strategy. The death of a general is discussed as well, and an example is given :book: The army in question suffered a huge morale (and organisatorial) penalty.

Back on topic, I don't think general deaths are much of a problem in the game, nor that it's exaggerated compared to what could be expected in real life.

As for the game, I've lost several generals in victorious battles, and killing the enemy's leader never single-handedly won me a fight like described above.

In real life, the death of the general was always a huge shock to his army, especially as leaders would often be the princes or lords who gave the cause for the fight in the first place! Even if that's not the case, when the guy who usually gives the orders is suddenly killed, there ought to be panic and confusion.

Just don't over-commit the general in the game. He's not supposed to lead your cavalry charge, let the second-in-command do the suicide :laugh4:

RTKDinadan

01-08-2007, 15:29

RTKBarrett

01-08-2007, 15:52

The 1st line of the above post is a quote from Nem.

I clicked on the quote button in his post... it seems that didn't work. I can't edit my post either, guess that's related to being a "junior member" :help:

Anti-Hungarianism on the .org :egypt:
Dins right though, dont overcommit ure gen and fingers crossed he wont die :idea2:

pike master

01-17-2007, 08:44

doesnt the generals death only have a morale penalty within a certian radius of the event and only temporary.

if he dies at the first it wont matter. maybe you can get one of your musketeers to shoot his head off when the battle starts. then on the other hand he is a good fighter with multiple hit points and with some units you can use the bugle which seems to give a morale boost as well as a dread bonus.

its funny though that only half of the units in the game will allow your general to use his bugle. a lot of times i wont use a generals bodyguard so my general wont be as visible.

Agravain of Orkney

01-19-2007, 14:02

If there is a concern about the death of your general being the decisive event of the battle then just keep him out of harms way and do not commit him to battle until that decisive event is upon you. Or buy a peasant gen and withdraw him from the start (I recall some players using that approach in the original MTW).

AFAIK, the generals death creates a temporary morale drop across all of your troops ...so whether they rout depends upon the individual moral state of each unit at the time of his death.... but then of course the routing of the weaker units will inflict their own morale penalties on the stronger units, infecting them like a virus and possibly leading to the chain rout.

RTKBarrett

01-19-2007, 14:40

I dnt understand why u would want to withdraw ure general from the start as his prescence prevents units from wavering within a certain perimeter...
Having him near the centre of the conflict but out of harms way is the best position.

pike master

01-20-2007, 16:25

not to mention his effecivness in melee but like napoleon he used his most effective troops at the moment of decision not at the first of the battle.