Idea to improve lag and lower spec for massive MP

[tootee]

Some idea for CA to improve the playability of 4v4 MP.

1. Since MP mostly uses the zoom out view, why not render the units using 2D sprite aka MTW1 when zoom-out, rather than wasting processing resource and memory bandwidth to render 3D polygon which hardly anyone will appreciate from that distance.. esp when these look so ugly at low setting. This will immediately lower the min spec for lagless 4v4 by 50% at least imo.

[sapi]

Sprites are used when you're zoomed out, and if you haven't noticed, i'd (nicely) suggest that you get your eyes tested ;)

[tootee]

I am not too sure about that. If you look closely (under high setting), each man is till individually and distinctly clothed, the horses of the same cav unit looks different slightly, and the legs animation suggest to me that 3D rendering is still done.. it may look like 2D sprite at low setting, but I am not too sure if the rendering is like STW or MTW.

What i am suggesting is to switch to STW/MTW type of graphic processing at zoom-out view.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Some idea for CA to improve the playability of 4v4 MP.

1. Since MP mostly uses the zoom out view, why not render the units using 2D sprite aka MTW1 when zoom-out, rather than wasting processing resource and memory bandwidth to render 3D polygon which hardly anyone will appreciate from that distance.. esp when these look so ugly at low setting. This will immediately lower the min spec for lagless 4v4 by 50% at least imo.

Rendering like MTW VI would be great! The graphics is clearly and a 4vs4 is no problem. And an option, that we cannot zoom in would be great too. It isn't necessary and would help to avoid lag.

[Orda Khan]

Sprites are used when you're zoomed out, and if you haven't noticed, i'd (nicely) suggest that you get your eyes tested ;)
Is this kind of reply really necessary? And from a so called Assistant Moderator

......Orda

[pevergreen]

Yes it is Orda, as they are 2d moving images. if you watch, some spearmen units change to having a large poleaxe of their shoulder while Sprinting. its 2d unit rendering for me on the highest graphics/video/everything settings. The same as RTW.

[x-dANGEr]

Is this kind of reply really necessary? And from a so called Assistant Moderator

......Orda

It may not. But sure yours isn't as well. ~;)

[pevergreen]

Dont let this turn into a spam thread. Do that to some important one instead :laugh4:

[CBR]

I doubt using 2D sprites only will help much. Lower the details to absolute minimum, or move camera into the corner of the map and look down into the ground and lower end CPU's is still choking when having too many soldiers in a battle.

A 4v4 using normal size would have maybe 8K men total (assuming 50/50 cav/sword units). Now there might be weird netcode or memory leak problems or whatever that causes lag in MP, but if your PC cant handle 8-9K in a custom battle then dont expect it to handle it better in MP.

M2TW appears to be even more demanding than RTW and I dont know if its bugs, bad programming or just more CPU power needed for spinning moves and other fancy calculations.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

I know they are 2D and IMO that is all that was needed to be said but without the eye test add on

.....Orda

[Aelwyn]

Unrelated, but I also noticed since the patch that when I close out of M2TW the process sometimes still runs in the background. In task manager medieval2.exe is running using about 90-100 k of memory. So I think there are some memory issues, not sure if this same type of error is occuring in MP, with memory not being properly released...or however you want to word it.

[sapi]

Back to the topic at hand (and orda, i'm sorry if i offended you, but the issue seems rather obvious to me), it'd seem to me that something along the lines of the 'desyncronise animations' option in reverse could be useful - drop out all the individual fighting that goes on during the 3d rendering and replace it with just a group fighting animation like in the earlier games.

To be honest, i'm not sure how much it would help, but it couldn't hurt, and serious mp players wouldnt' mind the loss of graphics, because, as has been said, games aren't played zoomed in anyway.

Another way to go would be to completely iconise the map (like in the upcoming supreme commander's tac map view) but it think that would go too far for many players

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I am puzzled about the lag.

To be honest, when looking from far, there is really nothing great about MTW2 graphics, whether it's 2D or 3D, or nothing that shiny that makes it so much better than VI.



That's usually what I see when I wander above the battlefield.



https://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2972/mtw2sightbm8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)


If that is difficult to display, then, really...

My game gets laggy at 3v3 normal size, powerpoint slideshow at 4v4.

Louis,

[Brighdaasa]

I personally don't think the lag is a gfx problem. Even playing the demo i noticed that like 4k men on the battlefield standing still is rendering without much problems on the highest settings on my higher mid range pc, but when they're moving or fighting the game turned into a slide show. Which to me suggest that it's a cpu problem (probably what they announced as individual soldier ai straining your cpu, or pathfinding or unit cohesion). That coupled with obviously sloppy network protocols and multiplayer optimization code, would cause the lag. I have to admit that i don't know if the lag persists in lan battles.

I'm fairly sure it's not graphics lag, but either cpu or networking protocols lag. Which is just plain wrong of CA to release a game in such a state. CA can come and prove me wrong in this any time, but it's not your hardware that's causing lag, it's bad programming.

[ElmarkOFear]

Louis is right. After zooming out to the level necessary for MP play, there isn't much difference in the graphics. I have been saying that ever since RTW, and it is one of the reasons I could never understand why RTW MP players thought RTW to be superior to MTW/VI, nor why SP campaign players liked the battle better, since to look at the battle close-up, you lost the ability to manage your army. I guess the judicious use of the PAUSE button was what made it playable.

[ElmarkOFear]

Oh: Puzz: When do you guys play Samurai Wars (in Eastern Standard Time)? Also, how many are currently playing it regularly?

Lastly, I wonder if there would be enough interest in an MTW Shogun MP campaign? I always wanted to give that one another shot, since I am now more familiar with making the map and have a streamlined set of rules.

[Darkarbiter]

If you manually delete all the sprites it should render the battlefield in 3d all the time. Most of the times its graphics lag which is what I dont get. I dont usually get too much lag on RTW either. I reckon they shoulda had RTW settings (or degraded each one) but have higher then highest or something.
Does anyone have a guide for settings compared to RTW/ RTW BI?

[sapi]

Louis is right. After zooming out to the level necessary for MP play, there isn't much difference in the graphics. I have been saying that ever since RTW, and it is one of the reasons I could never understand why RTW MP players thought RTW to be superior to MTW/VI, nor why SP campaign players liked the battle better, since to look at the battle close-up, you lost the ability to manage your army. I guess the judicious use of the PAUSE button was what made it playable.
I find that if you have situational awareness you rarely need to zoom out to view the battle fully.

I only play sp, so there is a difference, but i've never had to use the mini-map (and i have it hidden)

[ElmarkOFear]

Yup Sapi. I am an MP-only player so we come from two different perspectives on the battle engine. :) It is especially important to be zoomed out when playing 3v3 and 4v4 team games, since you need to react quickly to help your partner if he is double teamed on a flank. The more players in a battle the more distant your view needs be.

[sapi]

Ah - i see what you mean there - that never has to be considered in a campaign game.

[x-dANGEr]

I believe what lags it differ.. It can be either GFX lag or CPU lag, but if your question is why at that zoom out? Well, I'm no expert in this, but I guess the game keeps generating/calculating reflections (lighting), shadows (lighting as well) and other variables all time. Not taking in count whether you can see them or not. They might turn into 2D sprites, but changing 2D sprites.

I remember in RTW, sometimes I'd have a higher FPS if I zoom in into one of my units, rather than zoom out.

[ElmarkOFear]

You are probably right x-DANGEr. It would have to keep calculating that, as well as other 3-D info., even though it would be converted to 2D sprites at the zoomed-out level. Otherwise, it might be impossible to have the 3-D Models placed in their correct positions once the player zoomed back in to the close-up view. So zooming out would actually be adding to the workload of your graphics card and CPU by adding in the 2D sprites on top of the regular 3D info.

[Puzz3D]

Oh: Puzz: When do you guys play Samurai Wars (in Eastern Standard Time)? Also, how many are currently playing it regularly?
We play at 2:00 PM (19:00 GMT) on Sundays. We've been getting 6 to 8 players.
This is a list (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76202) of all the players who have played in the Samurai Warlords mini-campaign run by Tomisama.



Lastly, I wonder if there would be enough interest in an MTW Shogun MP campaign? I always wanted to give that one another shot, since I am now more familiar with making the map and have a streamlined set of rules.
Wild Bill Kelso is interested in running a multiplayer campaign Samurai Wars. His rules are simpler than what you used before for the STW multiplayer campaign. He posted recently looking for interested players here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74073). Right now I don't think there is enough interest, but when Samurai Wars beta 8 is released we'll promote the mod more widely.

[ElmarkOFear]

Thanks for the info Puzz. I might actually get to play in one rather than host one. :)

[tootee]

You are probably right x-DANGEr. It would have to keep calculating that, as well as other 3-D info., even though it would be converted to 2D sprites at the zoomed-out level. Otherwise, it might be impossible to have the 3-D Models placed in their correct positions once the player zoomed back in to the close-up view. So zooming out would actually be adding to the workload of your graphics card and CPU by adding in the 2D sprites on top of the regular 3D info.

this is exactly what i tried to say in my initial post..

we dont need each man to be uniquely clothed and have different animation from zoom-out.. if i remember correctly, in STW/MTW, all men in an unit has same "animation cycle", i.e. all same legs motion if you get what i mean.

not sure how this is done.. but calculating the 3D info and logging them.. so as to allow 100% reproduction exact 3D model motion of a polygon object during zoom-in for all replays.. is this really needed (anyone notice if all motions are exactly replicated in all replays)? i dont mind if the same man fight differently during different replay, except that the combat result and movement is same..

[ElmarkOFear]

I would love to see an option which would allow you to use 2D sprites during the entire battle. It would help decrease lag in MP most assuredly. However, CA has never been one to offer much in the way of Options.