v7 aesthetics

[Noir]

I posted this in the "is this the worst..." thread in the Sword Dojo, however i should have done it here. After a few satisfying campaigns against the cunning AI, i would like to make a few comments/suggestions/questions relative to certain aesthetic aspects of the mod.

I don't mean to be picky or anything; I enjoy the mod very much and seek to improve across the board.

I would be pleased if you could comment or guide on those as i would be interested in doing them myself if you regardthem unecessary or out of the intended spirit/atmosphere of the mod.

So:

A few aesthetic notes relative to the (SWs beta 7) campaign (sorry but i'm a sucker for this kind of thing~D ):

1. Princesses

The portraits of many of them have tattoos and apear to be street girls/yakuzas. A more plausibe (but less exciting - if you know what i mean :rolleyes2: ) approach would be to make them like lady kaede in RAN including the strategic token. They should be dressed in the characteristic long dress with the paint marks in their forehead above their eyebrows, sit in silence (and dignity) and carry no samisen.

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/9/9e/250px-Lady_Kaede.jpg

http://10kbullets.com/images/2005/12/ran-01.jpg

http://www.uaf.edu/english/faculty/ta/gaskin/lear/players/ran-edmund.jpg)

2. Unit Info pictures

I have plenty of books that portray illustrations very close to the original unit inspiration. I am sure that these would serve better than the pixilated portraits of units that are there at the moment.

I will scan some of them and post them as an indication if you are interested. I am sure very positive that they won't affect the original vision/aesthetics but actually enhance it.

3. Titles

As my (japanese) girlfriend commented, its "Owari no kammi" - no is the equivalent of the posessive 's ie John's toy, Owari's kammi.

4. Sakura tree models

That's a great touch by Barocca; i feel though that it can be improved by leaving only the pink blooms of the tree and take out the green leaves in the branches. In japan the trees start bloom in a "line" that "moves" from south to North every spring. The tv news monitor it (!)

5. Units

Some clans appear to have the helmets of their samurai in the color of the clan say yellow while most have black helmets unanimously and only their undergarments have the clan's colours. I'm guessing that the former need to be like the latter?

6. Experience Banners

Can they be reinstated to the japanese spirit?

and some ideas:

1. Castle maps

They are great - some problems with sieges where the besieging armies appear inside the castle but you know that already. The larger level castles could have the characteristic zig zag entrance corridor. They were designed as such to break any momentum of cavalry charges and give more perimeter to the defenders to shoot the attackers with missiles.

2. Music

I have a few samizen/koto/taikko pieces that go well with the strategy/battles. Let me know if you wish to try them for these purposes.

3. Automn trees

One of the things that made Shogun maps so great was the seasonal change. This was reflected in the lighting conditions, the cloud transitions and of course the trees. Would it be possible to include automn coloured trees in the battle map?

*Edit*

7. Sashimonos

Two thin lines with the seecondary clan colour in the upper area of the rectangle will greatly enhance their appearance i feel relative to the plain main clan color.

(most sashimono's had their own emblem's - this however should be very dificult for the engine and possibly have downgrading effects to how quickly you can reckognize your units. The stripes offer a solution out without being detrimental).

8. Wooden Castles

They appear way too large relative to the province size in the campaign map. I'm always happy to upgrade to the higher levels asthe castle scale becomes more fit to the map visually. Can this be changed?

[R'as al Ghul]

I posted this in the "is this the worst..." thread in the Sword Dojo, however i should have done it here. After a few satisfying campaigns against the cunning AI, i would like to make a few comments/suggestions/questions relative to certain aesthetic aspects of the mod. I don't mean to be picky or anything; I enjoy the mod very much and seek to improve across the board.

:bow: Welcome to Samurai Warlords.
Suggestions are always welcome. Be advised that we can be stubborn, though. :grin:


I would be pleased if you could comment or guide on those as i would be interested in doing them myself if you regard them unecessary or out of the intended spirit/atmosphere of the mod.
So:
A few aesthetic notes relative to the (SWs beta 7) campaign (sorry but i'm a sucker for this kind of thing~D ):

Sure, I'll try to answer them all.



1. Princesses

Well, I thought we had a good mixture of good and bad girls. I've searched the web up and down, most of those portraits are cut from woodcut prints of japanese artists. There're just not enough of them to keep one line of drawing. However, the portraits now included may be subject to change. We could leave some out, put some others in. I don't think we're gonna change the strategy piece again, though. If you want to contribute some portraits you may post them here.



2. Unit Info pictures

Not sure which pictures do you mean? The info scrolls of the units should have the same unit info pics as Shogun (the coloured ones). They're quite nice I think and not pixelated. Then there're the small pics in the army-panel and the battlefield icons.
The last time I wanted to change something (apart from the parchment scrolls) barocca said he wanted to keep one line of style. As I said we can be stubborn.


3. Titles

So our title "No Kami Owari" has the wrong word order? Well, if that's true we need to change that. Thanks.


4. Sakura tree models
I don't want to belittle barocca's accomplishment here, but they're directly imported from Shogun. So editing would mean extra work (you may try if you want).


5. Units (coloured helmets)

I suppose that's a graphical glitch. I've had that, too, at some point.
I thought it was fixed. I'll look into it again. Could you tell me how many factions with how many units were in that battle you describe?


6. Experience Banners
Any ideas? Those triangular flags have about a dozen or so animation frames. We'd need to agree on a better design and then make/edit those animations.


and some ideas:
1. Castle maps
We'll change the castles to make them stronger and not as easily taken. Puzz does those. I think larger castles could have a more complex structure like the one you describe.


2. Music
Most of us import the music and sound files from Shogun, which is what I'd advise. Including them into the mod would seriously largen the download size and give us copyright problems.


3. Automn trees
Unfortunately, MTW knows only two seasons, Winter and Summer. We'll have winter trees but autumn is out of the question.



7. Sashimonos
We'd love to do that but that would mean editing 300+ animation frames manually for each unit. Great idea but hardly feasible. Sorry.



8. Wooden Castles
That can be done. I remember we had complaints about it before. I'll keep that in mind and see what can be done.

I'd like to add that we concentrate on getting the map textures and models to work in MP. Then there're some minor problems like unpassable terrain to be fixed. Once that's done (and we have a stable version) we'll proceed to add minor details like completing the huge list of historical names, etc.
Currently I'm still waiting for a special installer my brother promised me but fails to finish (I'll give him a call again).

:bow:

R'as

P.S.: Your url avatar shows one of my Yakuza girls. :laugh4:

[Noir]

Thanks for the (quick) answer R'as.

To begin with, i like the yakuza girls very much ~D (congratulations to the fellow pervert who did them if its you or barocca or anyone else), i just find them to have an unapropriate air to represent the samurai himes.

For the unit info:

that's completely faulty i was having in mind a (much) earlier version. However i still meant to bring it up, the imported portraits are cropped on the sides to fit the scrolls in places, like in the case of the heavy cavalry/hatamoto. They also interfere with the text IIRC. having drawings ala MTW might alleviate these.

The small icons that appear on the campaign and battlefield are great (as the battle animations and the skins - particular justice has been done to naginatas).

I'll scan some material i had in mind and post it - you can then tell me if it looks interesting (and no problems if it doesn't).

For the helmets:

It was a moderate size battle - something like 8v8 units or thereabouts. I remember distinctly that it was the bright yellow that had this glitch (not the Oda yellow).

For the experience banners,

i just love the ones in Shogun - ie a smaller unit standard.

For the music,

i also import Shogun's files for the battle portion and the voices (using the swapper by TosaInu). The campaign music is excellent and my favorite in the series. Lately though i just spice up the game by trying my own soundrack. I understand the copyright and size aspects, that mean its everyone on its own, perfectly though.

Sorry to hear about the sashimono's.
Being like this i agree that it simply does not worth the effort.

I am aware that v7 could not be used for multiplayer and you are naturally concentrating on this first.

I'll try and do some editing for the sakura trees and get you my scans asap. I'll also see what i can do for the hime portraits.

[Puzz3D]

So our title "No Kami Owari" has the wrong word order? Well, if that's true we need to change that. Thanks.
And "no" should be lowercase, and "kammi" as well apparently. Keep that girlfriend excetchzebe1. We need to catch more of these syntax problems.



I don't want to belittle barocca's accomplishment here, but they're directly imported from Shogun. So editing would mean extra work (you may try if you want).
R'as is in charge of putting the files together for each release. So, if anyone wants to fix someting he can certainly include it. Stylistic or gameplay changes we check with barocca.



We'll change the castles to make them stronger and not as easily taken. Puzz does those. I think larger castles could have a more complex structure like the one you describe.
I was playing STW/MI campaign last night, and saw that castles have fortified buildings at the corners, and this gives the castles a more realistic apperance. For some reason I thought towers were used there, so that's how I made all the castles for beta7. Tonight I'm going to change the towers to fortified buildings on the castles and see how that looks. I hope the walls aren't so high that it doesn't look good.

I understand about the zig-zag approach to the gate, but units don't have to follow the road. There isn't really any benefit for units to do so in the game since they don't move faster on the road. I'm also not sure I can get a good asthetic appearance because the straight road tiles are limited to 90 degree orientations, so there isn't any way to have diagonally oriented roads which are straight.



I'd like to add that we concentrate on getting the map textures and models to work in MP. Then there're some minor problems like unpassable terrain to be fixed. Once that's done (and we have a stable version) we'll proceed to add minor details like completing the huge list of historical names, etc.
The impassable terrain is fixed, and I already sent you the corrected terrain texture files and map files. I'll be sending some modified castle maps, and some additional large maps converted from the MTW/VI custom mappack. I'm awaiting word from barocca about how to make the models of buildings, towers and walls stronger, but maybe I can figure this out myself.

[Puzz3D]

Here are the (impassable terrain) fixed maps and new textures that will appear in beta 8: SWbeta8_maps_textures_stats (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Yuuki/SWbeta8_maps_textures_stats.rar). It's a 24 MB download. This package also contains the castle maps which I worked on tonight, and a set of unit stat files of which only the MP unit stat file is different than the one in beta7. I replaced the castle towers with one of the smaller keeps, and the castles now look a lot more like they do in STW/MI.

To install this package to STWmod beta7 first delete the \Savemaps and \Battle\Maps folders or all the maps in those two folders, and then unrar this package to your main STWmod beta7 game folder. Let it overwrite the texture files and the stat files. All the maps will be installed to the \Battle\Maps folder, and none to \Savemaps.

[Noir]

The "helmet" issue also happens in Honda clan troops and Tokugawa troops. Thanks for the download material, i'll try it in the weekend now, and i'll join you guys for the first time on this coming Sunday if there is space as i finally will have time in my hands hereafter.

The intro clan texts are very informative (is Barocca reading Turnbull?), but can be improved and elaborated upon - for example the Tokugawa text views the clan from their position as Shoguns. It would be more appropriate if they are presented as another contestant for the Shogunate in the game.

We are at your service for any advice/checks required language wise Tonno.

Dozo yoroshiku onegaishimatsu
:bow:

[Noir]

Originally posted by Puzz3D

And "no" should be lowercase, and "kammi" as well apparently.

On a quick note the double m in kami was a misprint from my part. In romaji (ie japanese spelled using roman/latin characters) kami (meaning broadly god) is spelled as kami, so the mod's spelling is correct. I dont think that altering cases is necesary for any reason, i just happen to writte it that way. It is the word sequence that i was pointing out. Thank you for the consideration in any case.

The kami titles were granted by the eperor to certain daimiyos in exchange for faith and loyalty. They in turn could rise in status and confirm the divine descendance of their line that would open the highest offices to them.

Funnily enough kami is a word dating to the polytheistic shinto religion. The kamis were plenty and usually associated with nature ie kamis' of the forest X river Y or mountain Z - pretty much like in the old celtic traditions. Since buddhism was established the one (main) god is referred to as kami sama which translates as sir/honourable/dear god. It is the same word used when addressing someone dear or of higher status in a formal fashion in the old days.

[Puzz3D]

i'll join you guys for the first time on this coming Sunday if there is space as i finally will have time in my hands hereafter.
No problem with space in online Samurai Wars games. We are currently using the beta5 for online play. You need all three downloads in my signature. Install STWmod beta5 to a clean MTW/VI v2.01 installation.

[R'as al Ghul]

The impassable terrain is fixed, and I already sent you the corrected terrain texture files and map files.

Yes, I got them. Sorry for the confusion. :dunce:

[R'as al Ghul]

i'll join you guys for the first time on this coming Sunday if there is space

By all means, we need fresh victims. :wink:
You could check out some MP replays to see what's going on online. The battles are a lot different from SP. Unit stats etc still apply but the tactics used are different. It's rather typical to bring 4 teppos for example. This usually leads to a shootout/ skirmish phase between the teppo lines where each player tries to get the upper hand with CavArchers or Yari Cav. You'll also get an idea for army composition that way. But that is really intuitive, you get 9000 Koku to buy your army and we play without upgrades. That means each unit performs as expected and you don't have to count any valour flags on the units to determine their combat factor. A Yari Samurai is a Yari Samurai. There're no v6 w3 Yari Sams.

I've also posted on TWC as there was a question on SamWars MP. It may well be that we can recruit some players there, too.

[Noir]

Posted by R'as Al Ghul

The battles are a lot different from SP. Unit stats etc still apply but the tactics used are different. It's rather typical to bring 4 teppos for example. This usually leads to a shootout/ skirmish phase between the teppo lines where each player tries to get the upper hand with CavArchers or Yari Cav. You'll also get an idea for army composition that way. But that is really intuitive, you get 9000 Koku to buy your army and we play without upgrades. That means each unit performs as expected and you don't have to count any valour flags on the units to determine their combat factor. A Yari Samurai is a Yari Samurai. There're no v6 w3 Yari Sams.

Already done, but having difficulties in seeing them. I downloaded the necessary stuff from the stickyied thread. I can watch the replays till fighting really begins in the skirmish phase, then the frame rate goes berserk/very slow and only the sound really shows evidence of progress in the battle.

I saw a 4v4: it was Puzz+Tosa vs R'as+CBR and later on Tomi joined - the October 22nd games. I tried another one (November probably the next), but still the same problem.

By the way they are very nice battles.

I also agree on the no upgrades policy that makes it a tactics only battle. I'll have to work hard initially on cooordination and speed i guess so (quite) a few beatings by the textbook are imminent for you guys. I have no multiplayer experience - i was drawn to the idea especially for this mod by reading Puzz's posts.

Hence my location, which from Sunday will change~;)

[R'as al Ghul]

Already done, but having difficulties in seeing them. I downloaded the necessary stuff from the stickyied thread. I can watch the replays till fighting really begins in the skirmish phase, then the frame rate goes berserk/very slow and only the sound really shows evidence of progress in the battle.

Awww, what a pity.
I guess you've read all the posts in there, too?
This is important and the location of the map files:

And for future reference, this is what you need for correct replay of replay files:
- replay files
- startpos
- unit_prod
- projectiles
- map files in correct folder

I've one idea what may cause this: We've updated the unit_prod file at some point but we kept the name of the file. unit_prod_10 or something could either include beta10 or beta11 stats. So, even if the unit_prod file that came with the download has the same name as your current one, you can try to swap it.
Try to turn sound acceleration down in dxdiag and turn hardware mixing off (in game sound options). That may help with the frame rate.
I'll try one of the downloads on my current beta_5 install. I'd hate it if people couldn't watch them properly.

R'as

Edit: I can determine from the .vrp files which map was played and where it was stored. That may be useful in future.

[Puzz3D]

Yes, I got them. Sorry for the confusion.
The new package I posted supersedes what I sent you because I've moved all maps into \Battle\Maps and I changed all the castle maps. Last night I started retexturing one of the large MTW custom maps, and it's a lot of work. I don't know how many I can get done before beta8 is ready.



you get 9000 Koku to buy your army and we play without upgrades.
There is actually no rule against upgrades (there are no rules at all), but upgrades are not worth what they cost unless you can catch a player off guard.



I can watch the replays till fighting really begins in the skirmish phase, then the frame rate goes berserk/very slow and only the sound really shows evidence of progress in the battle.
That could be a sound issue. In the game's options menu, lower sound quality to medium and uncheck hardware mixing as R'as suggests. What computer system do you have (cpu, video, sound, os)?

[Noir]

At the moment i'm stack with my laptop that has a:

1.4 mobile Intel celeron M
Intel xtreme graphics 2 video adapter & accelerator
XP Win home edition
Intel AC 97Audio controller

*EDIT* I mean stuck - gee being a TW fan really takes its toll! :laugh4:

[Puzz3D]

The cpu should be fast enough except it's only a Celeron. The AC 97 sound could be a problem. Lowering sound quality to minimum and using hardware acceleration might take some load off the cpu, but as a rule we have players uncheck hardware acceleration. A potential problem is that the game doesn't support laptops. Do you get adequate framerate in 1v1 against the AI using full 16 unit armies?

[Noir]

I do even with larger than 16vs16 (more than one opponent on the field).

I noticed in both replays i've tried that the "problem" appears at approximately the same time. Up to that point i get smooth running and no signs of struggle at all. Anyway, i'll test your suggestions and see what happens by Saturday.

Thanks

[Puzz3D]

Does a 2v2 Samurai Wars replay work better?

[Noir]

I'll give it a shot, but unfortunately i can't at the moment. I'll do it by Saturday morning though and pm you.

Sorry for the trouble, my desktop is currently... serving elsewhere, and i won't get it back for some time.

:bow: