Murfios
02-19-2007, 04:18
By Antarki
based on the information i manage and all my studies on the subject, ive come with an idea for the factions of the game situated historically and geographically in the prehispanic andes of th mid XV century.
to what i have read, byzantineknight has indicated that:
"The factions are:
Factions that resemble the Incans
The Incan Empire
The Chachapoyas
The Aymara
Factions that resemble the Mapuche
The Mapuche
The Diaguita
Unique Factions
The Chimu
The Augaruna"
Ok, that sums 7 factions, 2 coastal (chimu and mapuche), 2 andean( the incan empire, aymara) and 2 amazonic ones (chachapoyas and aguaruna) Ive not heard of the "diaguita" so i dont know where are they.
well, what i propose is the following, please read it carefully:
17 factions, including 2 rebel factions:
1.- Tumbes (not playable)
2.- The Chimu empire (playable)
3.- Ichma (not playable)
4.- the kingdom of Chincha (not playable)
5.- The mapuche (playable)
6.- araucania (not playable)
7.- Caxamarca (playable)
8.- The cañari confederation (playable)
9.- the huanca confederation (playable)
10.- the chanca confederation (playable)
11.- Huaylas (not playable)
12.- The kingdom of Cuzco (playable, obviously)
13.- the lupaka kingdom (playable)
14.- the Kolla kingdoms (not playable)
15.- Rebel curacas (rebels, not playable. only in the andes and coast)
16.- the Chachapoya kingdom (playable)
17.- tha amazonian tribes ("rebels", not playable)
Now dont be spooked with all these factions!, ill first explain miself how I grouped:
the reason why i think some factions should be playable and some no resides in their importance: for instance, the huaylas where a nation conquered by the incas, but they where nothing military or culturally relevant as to be considered a faction wich the player can controll to dominate the others, chincha kingdom for example was very imporatnt at the time but for its economic importance: they can be a faction but not playable since it could be a province of high income, buit their military where not a great thing. (in fact, the incas conquered them pacifically)
as you see, instead of the aymara, wich in the time where known as "kollas" I propose the kolla kingdmos as a grouping faction, wich at the time where a bunch of curacazgs spread arounf the titicaca lake and the powerfull lupaka kingdom wich reached the coast.
instead of the numerous amazonian tribes i think they could be gropued in a biig factions just called "amazonian tribes". the chachapoyas due to their impotance can be a sole faction.
I dont have time right now, but this post must continue with a litlle map to show the factions locations. thats why id like to see tha map you guys are developing to see if we can make some of this changes. obviously, this is just a proposition, you can think about it and tell me what you think, for now, ill make a second post to show where this factions can be located and why they are historically relevant. Bye for now! :)
Ok, Ive borrowed this map from the web and made some modifications (hope its not illegal) to have some idea of the factions location in the map. ive put here the factions i have propossed, wich as i said are the most relevant groups at the time. I see its maybe difficult to put them all, but anyway this can serve as a refference to all of you:
[image]
With some presission errors, this is almost the most up to day concensus upon the location of the different ethnic groups at the time (middle of the XV century). of course, there where a lot more, but Ive simlified and expanded the more relevant. well, hope to now what you think.
My guess is that 17 factions surely is a big number, but its not that big work. in fact, in this structure there are only 7 playable factions (wich are the ones that require the hard work) . the rest are just "filling factions" wich may have almost similar units in most cases, and few of them (like the Escitians and dacians in RTW. what do you think?
as for the aguarunas...well, in fact agaruna territory in the vast jungle is only a very small percent, and we must remember that they where located in the north part, almost near the actual frontier between ecuador and peru, wich means the incas made contact with them late, under huayna capac´s reign. I think an abstract and general faction, resembling just the generallity of the rain forest groups would be more relevant (look at the size of the jungle in the map, in the map you are developing sure the jungle is a big part too). but i dont know, maybe you have decided that. its an important thing to debate nevertheles.
For now, think about the map and we can share more ideas.
the mid XV century is, as i think you all know, the time of the rise of Cuzco and of the construction of the Inca empire, wich didnt exist previously.
The empire springs after pachakutecs (previously prince Inca yupanki) defeat of the chanka confederation, the most powerfull rival to the inca power at the time (this is also a great story that is worth telling), the north was dominated by the chimu empire at those times and other people waged war against each other.
thats why this mod MUST include the chancas, for wich -for instance- there is plenty of imfomation about them. (if you have doubts you can ask me, there is plenty of bibliography over here).
it would be nice that the mod gives this filling of chaos to the preinca andes, previously to the incas rise to power. many historians say that if they where not the incas the ones who hegemonized, it could have been tha chancas or any other ethnic group. the mod should permit this to happen, but obviously giving enphasis to the Cuzcos.
well, I too think the 17 factons would be more adecuate. any way, until that goal can be made, and incorporing the help of filibusteria, this could be a much more presise map of the midlle XV century Andes, of course, looking towards the game map distribution:
[image]
Now i think that the seven factions currently in process are linkable to the factions propossed in this map:
1. inca empire: the kingdom of Cuzco (at the time, there was no inca empire)
2. Tha aymara: kolla kingdoms or lupaka kingdom (the lupaka nation seems more adecaute)
3. the chimu: the chimu empire (it was an expansionist state)
4.- the diaguita: well, the diaguita
5.- the mapuche: again, the mapuche
6.- the chachapoyas: the kingdom of Chachapoyas
7.- Aguarunas: the amazonian tribes OR Tribes of the Antis
ive explained why it gets a little loose to have the aguarunas represent the vast and pluricultural tribes of the rain forest at the time of the incas. Now, they can be called "the amazonian tribes" grouping all of them in more or less similar units, since the warriors of the rain forest where most of them archers and didnt differ much in their kind of warfare.)
Now, there is also a problem with this concept that I ve considered. "amazonia" wasnt the name with wich this area was known at the time, nor was "amazonians" the way people called its inhabitants. the incas called jungle people "antis" and the part of the rain forest they conquered was called "antisuyu", named after its people. the Chachapoyas where also considered antis, but they where just a unique Civ at the time. all other amazonic tribes where basically hunter gatherers with a belic culture based most of them on the intesive use of the simple and long bow (some of wich where used as siege weapons using the feet for tension) usually with poisoned arrows.
based on the information i manage and all my studies on the subject, ive come with an idea for the factions of the game situated historically and geographically in the prehispanic andes of th mid XV century.
to what i have read, byzantineknight has indicated that:
"The factions are:
Factions that resemble the Incans
The Incan Empire
The Chachapoyas
The Aymara
Factions that resemble the Mapuche
The Mapuche
The Diaguita
Unique Factions
The Chimu
The Augaruna"
Ok, that sums 7 factions, 2 coastal (chimu and mapuche), 2 andean( the incan empire, aymara) and 2 amazonic ones (chachapoyas and aguaruna) Ive not heard of the "diaguita" so i dont know where are they.
well, what i propose is the following, please read it carefully:
17 factions, including 2 rebel factions:
1.- Tumbes (not playable)
2.- The Chimu empire (playable)
3.- Ichma (not playable)
4.- the kingdom of Chincha (not playable)
5.- The mapuche (playable)
6.- araucania (not playable)
7.- Caxamarca (playable)
8.- The cañari confederation (playable)
9.- the huanca confederation (playable)
10.- the chanca confederation (playable)
11.- Huaylas (not playable)
12.- The kingdom of Cuzco (playable, obviously)
13.- the lupaka kingdom (playable)
14.- the Kolla kingdoms (not playable)
15.- Rebel curacas (rebels, not playable. only in the andes and coast)
16.- the Chachapoya kingdom (playable)
17.- tha amazonian tribes ("rebels", not playable)
Now dont be spooked with all these factions!, ill first explain miself how I grouped:
the reason why i think some factions should be playable and some no resides in their importance: for instance, the huaylas where a nation conquered by the incas, but they where nothing military or culturally relevant as to be considered a faction wich the player can controll to dominate the others, chincha kingdom for example was very imporatnt at the time but for its economic importance: they can be a faction but not playable since it could be a province of high income, buit their military where not a great thing. (in fact, the incas conquered them pacifically)
as you see, instead of the aymara, wich in the time where known as "kollas" I propose the kolla kingdmos as a grouping faction, wich at the time where a bunch of curacazgs spread arounf the titicaca lake and the powerfull lupaka kingdom wich reached the coast.
instead of the numerous amazonian tribes i think they could be gropued in a biig factions just called "amazonian tribes". the chachapoyas due to their impotance can be a sole faction.
I dont have time right now, but this post must continue with a litlle map to show the factions locations. thats why id like to see tha map you guys are developing to see if we can make some of this changes. obviously, this is just a proposition, you can think about it and tell me what you think, for now, ill make a second post to show where this factions can be located and why they are historically relevant. Bye for now! :)
Ok, Ive borrowed this map from the web and made some modifications (hope its not illegal) to have some idea of the factions location in the map. ive put here the factions i have propossed, wich as i said are the most relevant groups at the time. I see its maybe difficult to put them all, but anyway this can serve as a refference to all of you:
[image]
With some presission errors, this is almost the most up to day concensus upon the location of the different ethnic groups at the time (middle of the XV century). of course, there where a lot more, but Ive simlified and expanded the more relevant. well, hope to now what you think.
My guess is that 17 factions surely is a big number, but its not that big work. in fact, in this structure there are only 7 playable factions (wich are the ones that require the hard work) . the rest are just "filling factions" wich may have almost similar units in most cases, and few of them (like the Escitians and dacians in RTW. what do you think?
as for the aguarunas...well, in fact agaruna territory in the vast jungle is only a very small percent, and we must remember that they where located in the north part, almost near the actual frontier between ecuador and peru, wich means the incas made contact with them late, under huayna capac´s reign. I think an abstract and general faction, resembling just the generallity of the rain forest groups would be more relevant (look at the size of the jungle in the map, in the map you are developing sure the jungle is a big part too). but i dont know, maybe you have decided that. its an important thing to debate nevertheles.
For now, think about the map and we can share more ideas.
the mid XV century is, as i think you all know, the time of the rise of Cuzco and of the construction of the Inca empire, wich didnt exist previously.
The empire springs after pachakutecs (previously prince Inca yupanki) defeat of the chanka confederation, the most powerfull rival to the inca power at the time (this is also a great story that is worth telling), the north was dominated by the chimu empire at those times and other people waged war against each other.
thats why this mod MUST include the chancas, for wich -for instance- there is plenty of imfomation about them. (if you have doubts you can ask me, there is plenty of bibliography over here).
it would be nice that the mod gives this filling of chaos to the preinca andes, previously to the incas rise to power. many historians say that if they where not the incas the ones who hegemonized, it could have been tha chancas or any other ethnic group. the mod should permit this to happen, but obviously giving enphasis to the Cuzcos.
well, I too think the 17 factons would be more adecuate. any way, until that goal can be made, and incorporing the help of filibusteria, this could be a much more presise map of the midlle XV century Andes, of course, looking towards the game map distribution:
[image]
Now i think that the seven factions currently in process are linkable to the factions propossed in this map:
1. inca empire: the kingdom of Cuzco (at the time, there was no inca empire)
2. Tha aymara: kolla kingdoms or lupaka kingdom (the lupaka nation seems more adecaute)
3. the chimu: the chimu empire (it was an expansionist state)
4.- the diaguita: well, the diaguita
5.- the mapuche: again, the mapuche
6.- the chachapoyas: the kingdom of Chachapoyas
7.- Aguarunas: the amazonian tribes OR Tribes of the Antis
ive explained why it gets a little loose to have the aguarunas represent the vast and pluricultural tribes of the rain forest at the time of the incas. Now, they can be called "the amazonian tribes" grouping all of them in more or less similar units, since the warriors of the rain forest where most of them archers and didnt differ much in their kind of warfare.)
Now, there is also a problem with this concept that I ve considered. "amazonia" wasnt the name with wich this area was known at the time, nor was "amazonians" the way people called its inhabitants. the incas called jungle people "antis" and the part of the rain forest they conquered was called "antisuyu", named after its people. the Chachapoyas where also considered antis, but they where just a unique Civ at the time. all other amazonic tribes where basically hunter gatherers with a belic culture based most of them on the intesive use of the simple and long bow (some of wich where used as siege weapons using the feet for tension) usually with poisoned arrows.