LIBERTY OR DEATH (1821 mod)

[meliritos]

Ok I thought about it and seeing that a lot of people from the Balkans and the wider southeastern Europe play RTW and its expansioni decided to start a new mod: the 1821 mod.
The setting is the following:Its the beginning of the 19th century. The Ottoman Empire is declining after 500 years of expansion. In addition to that, the idea of liberialism has blossomed in central Europe and in the New World resulting in the Declaration of Independence in 1776 and the French Revolution. The 18th century sees centralized authority giving way to varying degrees of provincial autonomy enjoyed by local governors and leaders.
The rise of nationalism sweeps through many countries during the 19th century, and the Ottoman Empire is not immune. A burgeoning national consciousness, together with a growing sense of ethnic nationalism, makes nationalistic thought one of the most significant Western ideas imported by the Ottoman empire, as it was forced to deal with nationalism-related issues both within and beyond its borders. There is a significant increase in the number of revolutionary political parties. Uprisings in Ottoman territory have many far-reaching consequences during the 19th century and will determine much of Ottoman policy during the early 20th century.
On March 6, 1821 Alexander Ypsilanti accompanied by several other Greek officers of the Russian army crosses the river Prut in Romania. On March 23 rebels take control of Kalamata in Peloponnese and on March 25 the greek war of independence is declared. In 1829 Greece declares its independence. Soon other nations follow its example and a wave of uprisings sweeps through the Balkans.

Game Focus

The mod will focus in the revolutionary attempts of the many nation that were under the Ottoman rule in the 19th century. The title of the mod: 1821 is the date when the Greeks revolted and signaled a series of uprisings in the Balkan peninsula. The mod will focus on the Ottoman Empire and its lands.

The objective of the mod:

The player starts as one of the rebel nations or as the Ottoman Empire. The question is: Will the revolt succeed and how far will the rebels go? Will they manage to form a country or will the Ottoman Empire crush the revolutions and reinforce its rule on the Balkan people?

Factions

Although the mod is in a preliminary stage i believe the factions should be
The Ottoman Empire (of course)
Greece
Bulgaria
Serbia
Moldova
Wallachia
Albania
Montenegro
Bosnia
Egypt
Armenia

but this list is subject to alteration. The final faction list and the units for every faction will be decided by the mod memebers. This mod is intended for the 1.6 version but in the back of my head i have MTW2, maybe we could do some parallel work for a future adaptation of the mod for MTW2.

Recruitment for the mod

Basically every one is welcome but i intend to form a core team that will (hopefully) carry this through the end a.s.ap. I can model and do some skining and of course i will do much of the research work.

OK. Thats it for now. I know that a lot of mods start and never finishe, but i hope with a lot of help from my friends (from my friends a little help, from my frieeeeeends, sorry been carried away) we can pull this through.

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

I am romanian...
I will help you with everything regarding Vallachia and Moldavia.
I would like to see the "Pandurii" of Tudor Vladimirescu represented for the first time in a game

But with one condition...
Make it for Barbarian invasion 1.6 ~:) I do`nt have MTW 2.

I promise extensive help...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

:thumbsup:

Good luck!

[meliritos]

ok rex my friend, lets start a mod...
I would be honoured to model your national heroes into tw units. And yes, the mod will be for TW 1.6, nevertheless i will model the units with more faces so as to include them later in a possible MTW2 version
For the faction leaders icons we can have the drawings of the original characters, like this one for alexandros ipsilantis

https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3052/ypsilantisfz2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

so that means tah we already have the faction's leaders icons ready, he he

ok, rex prepare for the mod the following:
1. A short summary about the moldavia and wallachia uprising
2. a unit list (with references). I will PM you with a mail where we can send them.
3. a list with the faction members
4. photos of their portrais

that goes for everyone who wants to participate in the mod and support other factions with references. I believe that many people will be interested in the mod once it gets a little known and the word spreads around.

[meliritos]

Moderator, how could we make this a sticky thread in the developing mods forum?

[Filibustería]

could you make this compatible with rtw 1.5 too, please?

I could make unit references if you want.

[meliritos]

You and Rex are friends so you are welcome. As far as the 1.5 version is conserned we cal look to it, if it isnt much trouble, then we will do.

[meliritos]

Hmmm, by friends I mean my friends. Anyway, Rex asked me about the factions and how the sieges will be done in the 1821 mod since by the 19th century there were no more city walls. I post here my answer, as i believe it will help the mod members

I wrote: "I believe we should have Turkey, Greece, Wallachia (after Rex's suggestion), Bulgaria, Serbia and maybe Egypt in the first release.
About the sieges. In Greek history we had sieges (Im Greek by the way), like in the cities of Mesologgi. I thought a way of getting around this. There will be 2 possibilities:
1) Direct battle, no siege. A battle will take place outside the town and if the army in the town loses the battle then the town is lost. I will study the upkeep parameter so that a player will have the ability to keep armed forces in a town without risking economic catastrophy
2) Siege for 3-5 turns according to the size of the town. The faction that lays the siege wont have the ability to attack before the turns run out. BUT, if a town is sieged this will have a demoralishing effect to the upkeep army and there will be also a high risk of rebellion inside the town.
This will require some scripting, but i believe it can be done. The armies will have cannons of different leves but they will be used against the armies, not city walls. (We are going to need ingenious scripters).
I generally believe that, although difficult, this mod can be done and the final result can be awesome. Once again i want to invite people with skills in mapping, skinning, scripting and the rest, to help us pull this project trough.

Also, i thought sth about the sea trade. Of course there will be war ships but in addition we will have trade ships (this is my original idea but if the sripters cannot implement this we can omit it, although i believe it will be a nice idea to have ingame). Trade between ports will be achieved only when a trade ship reaches its destination port (from port A depart to port B arrival). I hope scripters find a way to implement this. This will enable a more naval orientated approach to the game and allow war ships to attack traders and cripple the trade of enemy factions

P.S. Generally, about the mod, i know it will reguire many units. Thats where i come in, i will manage that, i can model also new buildings if we can implement them in the game, i will take care of the loading screens, the faction icons...mmm i dont know if im forgetting sth.

I will post soon the Greek line of units.

[meliritos]

This is the preliminary line of units for the Greek Faction

Army
1. -Ataktoi (novice warriors)
2. -Klepht (irregular soldiers)
3. -Armatoloi (irregular soldiers, ranged unit)
4. -Orthodox Priest (with fighting skills)
6. -Ieros Lochos ("Sacred Band" organized light infantry)
5. -Heavy Klepht (Klepth upgrade, mounted)
6. -Heavy Armatoloi (Armatoloi upgrade, mounted)
8. (upgrade) -Protopalikaro (Lieutenant)
9. (upgrade) -Kapetanios (Captain)
10. (upgrade) -Stratigos (General)
11 -Spy
12. -Diplomat
13. -Assasin
14. -Cannon (Artillery)
15. -Heavy cannon

Navy
1. Trade ship
2. War ship
3. Heavy war ship
4. Pirpolika (Fireboats)

[Filibustería]

I read that there were english, french and russian soldiers supporting the greek revolution against the ottoman Empire. Will you include them as mercenaries?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Moderator, how could we make this a sticky thread in the developing mods forum?Sorry, yet the moderators probably wouldn't do that - it would make the forum one huge mass of stickies and would cause it to become harder to navigate! Sorry to be a bearer of bad news!

[meliritos]

Thats ok, i dont mind. Next weekend i will start the units, then the mod will have sth substantial to talk about and the moderators will eventually sticky this thread. Next week will be spent on searching for references for the greek and turikish Faction members (halfway there right now), the faction icons and things like that.
As for the French, the British and the Russians are concerned, they may be included if the mod comes up with enough people. I had that in mind but i dont want to go too far for this mod, because there are not many people working for it. If there was another modeller (at least) and some people for the maps and the scripts i would say go for it. But right now I'm too tied up to take on sth like that, having also the task to make the models for the Inca Total War, as I'm the modeller for this mod.

[meliritos]

I also want to restate that this mod isnt only about the Greek revolution. Its about the uprisings in the Balkans. There are also other factions, like the Bulgarians, the Wallachians, the Serbs and others, which will also be playable. So it would be unfair to focus this mod on the Greek people. The name of the mod is 1821, because the Greek revolution was the first that resulted in the formation of a new state.
If anyone cares of finding references and info about one's own nation, one is free to submit them, and the help will be much appreciated. I published the Greek faction list because that was easier for me having some basic knowledge about the Greek revolution, from what i learned from school (a century ago). Now I study the Ottoman faction and i prepair a unit list for them, already found some nice pictures of previous Ottoman Sultans that will make great family members icons.

[Suraknar]

Some Historical Reference if you permit :)


The Orlov Revolt (1770) was a precursor to the Greek War of Independence (1821), which saw a Greek uprising in the Peloponnese at the instigation of Count Orlov, commander of the Russian Naval Forces of the Russo-Turkish War. In Greece it is known as the "Orlov events" (Ορλωφικά).
Russo-Turkish War (1768-1774)
Orlov – Chesma – Larga – Kagul

Wishing to weaken the Ottoman Empire and establish a pro-Russian Greek state in the Balkans, Russian emissaries were sent to Mani in the mid-1760s, to make a pact with the local leaders who represented the strongest military force in Greece at the time. In 1769, during the Russo-Turkish War, a fleet of 14 warships commanded by count Aleksey Grigoryevich Orlov sailed from the Baltic Sea for the Mediterranean. The fleet reached Mani in February 1770, prompting the Maniots to raise their war flags. 50 Russian soldiers remained to help fight in the ground war, while the fleet sailed on to the Aegean Sea.

The Greek army was initially successful, quickly liberating large portions of Morea. The revolt however failed to effectively spread in the rest of Greece. With the assistance of Greek islanders, the Russian fleet was able to score a major victory against the Turkish Navy in the Battle of Cesme, but this did not help the Greek army in Morea, and the revolt was soon crushed.

From the Russian point of view, Count Orlov's mission was a success, damaging the Turkish Fleet, directing Turkish troops south, and contributing to the victory that led to the signing of the Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji.

From the Greek point of view, the affair was a failure which cost a huge number of lives (both in battle, and in the Turkish reprisals that followed). The Greeks were effectively forgotten in the Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji, and they became increasingly distrustful of the Russians as a result. While Greek connections to Russian remained strong (in part because of the influence of prominent Greeks in Russia), many among the next generation of Greek leaders (such as Petrobey and Kolokotronis) would look to the West for alliances.


The Greek War of Independence (1821–1831), also known as the Greek Revolution (Greek: Ελληνική Επανάσταση του 1821, Elliniki Epanastasi, , Turkish: Yunan İsyanı (Greek insurgence)), was a successful war waged by the Greeks to win independence for Greece from the Ottoman Empire. Independence was finally granted by the Treaty of Constantinople in July 1832 when Greece (Hellas) was recognized as a free country. The Greeks were the first of the subject peoples of the Ottoman Empire to secure recognition as a sovereign power. Greeks celebrate their Independence day annually on March 25.

The Ottoman Empire had ruled almost all of Greece, with the exception of the Ionian Islands since its conquest of the Byzantine Empire over the course of the 14th and 15th centuries. But in the 18th and 19th century, as revolutionary nationalism grew across Europe (due, in part, to the influence of the French Revolution), and the power of the Ottoman Empire declined, Greek nationalism began to assert itself and drew support from Western European "philhellenes".

One of the early writers who helped shape opinion among the Greek population in and out of the Ottoman Empire was Rigas Feraios (Ρήγας Φεραίος). Born in Thessaly and educated in Constantinople, Feraios published a Greek-language newspaper Ephimeris in Vienna in the 1790s. He was deeply influenced by the French Revolution and he published revolutionary tracts and proposed republican constitutions for Greek and pan-Balkan nations. He was arrested by Austrian officials in Trieste in 1797 when he was betrayed by a Greek merchant in that city. He was handed over to Ottoman officials and was transported to Belgrade with his co-conspirators. They were all strangled to death and their bodies dumped in the Danube River in June, 1798. Instead of diminishing support for Feraios' ideas, his death fanned the flames of Greek independence.

In 1814, Greek nationalists formed a secret organization called the Friendly Society (Filiki Eteria) in Odessa. With the support of wealthy Greek exile communities in Britain and the United States, the aid of sympathizers in Western Europe and covert assistance from Russia, they planned a rebellion. The basic objective of the society was a revival of the Byzantine Empire, with Constantinople as the capital, not the formation of a national state. John Capodistria, an official from the Ionian Islands who had become the Russian Foreign Minister, was secured as the leader of the planned revolt. In 1821, Ottoman Empire was occupied with war against Persia and with the revolt of Ali Pasha in the Balkans. The Great Powers, who opposed revolutions in principle in the aftermath of Napoleon were preoccupied with revolts in Italy and Spain and the revolutionaries started their actions. The planned revolt originally involved uprisings in three places, Peloponnese, the Danubian Principalities and Istanbul. The start of the uprising can be set in 1821 on March 6 when Alexander Ypsilanti accompanied by several other Greek officers of the Russian army crossed the river Prut in Romania, when the Maniots declared war of the Ottomans on the March 17 or on March 23 when rebels took control of Kalamata in Peloponnese. Simultaneous risings were planned across Greece, including in Macedonia, Crete and Cyprus, or the declaration on March 25 (see Germanos of Patras (Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός, Palaion Patron Germanos).

The Revolution initially broke in the Peloponnese and Central Greece and quickly spread across the whole Aegean to Crete and Cyprus. In January 1822 the 1st National Assembly at Epidauros declared the independence of the Greek Nation and consolidated their position with remarkable victories on land and sea until 1823 when attempts by the revolutionaries to assert control beyond the Peloponnese ended in a stalemate.

The Ottomans retaliated violently in parts of Greece to the massacre of thousands of Muslims by the Greek insurgents, and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, massacring in retaliation the Greek population of Chios and other towns. These incidents, however, drew sympathy for the Greek cause in western Europe—although the British and French governments suspected that the uprising was a Russian plot to seize Greece and possibly Constantinople from the Ottomans. The Greeks were unable to establish a coherent government in the areas they controlled, and soon fell to fighting among themselves. Inconclusive fighting between Greeks and Ottomans continued until 1825, when Sultan Mahmud II asked for help from his most powerful vassal, Egypt.

Egypt was then ruled by the Albanian Mehmet Ali Pasha who was eager to test his newly modernized armed forces. The Ottoman Sultan also promised Ali concessions in Syria if Egypt participated. The Egyptian force, under the command of Ali's son Ibrahim, was successful and quickly gained dominance of the seas and Aegean islands through the navy. Ibrahim was also successful in the Peloponnese, where he managed to recapture Tripolis, the administrative center of the area.

In Europe, the Greek revolt aroused widespread sympathy among the public but at the beginning was met with lukewarm reception by the Great Powers, with Britain supporting the insurrection only after 1823 when the Ottomans failed to assert their power despite a Greek civil war and Russia adding their support after Britain, to limit the British influence over the Greeks.[3] Greece was viewed as the cradle of western civilization, and it was especially lauded by the spirit of romanticism that was current at the time. The sight of a Christian nation attempting to cast off the rule of a Muslim Empire also appealed to the western European public.

One of those who heard the call was the poet Lord Byron who spent time in Albania and Greece, organising funds and supplies (including the provision of several ships), but died from fever at Messolonghi in 1824. Byron's death did even more to augment European sympathy for the Greek cause. This eventually led the western powers to intervene directly.

On 20 October 1827 the British, Russian and French fleets, on the initiative of local commanders but with the tacit approval of their governments, attacked and destroyed the Ottoman fleet at the Battle of Navarino (Πύλος). This was the decisive moment in the war of independence, although the British Admiral Edward Codrington nearly ruined his career, since he wasn't ordered to achieve such a victory or destroy completely the Turko/Egyptian fleet. In October 1828, the Greeks regrouped and formed a new government under John Capodistria (Καποδíστριας). They then advanced to seize as much territory as possible, including Athens and Thebes, before the western powers imposed a ceasefire. The Greeks seized the last Turkish strongholds in the Peloponnese with the help of the French general, Nicolas Joseph Maison.

Some of the first Greek actions were taken against unarmed Ottoman settlements. It is estimated that 15,000 out of 40,000 Muslim residents were killed. Other estimates of Turkish and Albanian civilian deaths by the rebels range from 15.000(Greek claim) to 30,000 only in Tripolis to 60.000(Turkish claim), but the revolution was successful in cleansing the entire Turkish and Albanian population from the Peloponnese, whether through death or displacement. After the beginning of the Greek War of Independence Ottoman soldiers began the massacre of thousands of Greeks around the Ottoman Empire. Jelavich states: "As a rule, Ottoman actions were fully reported in Europe, with all the gruesome details; Christian atrocities tended to be ignored." In one of the most notorious occurrences, the Chios Massacre during 1822, about 42,000 Greek islanders of Chios were hanged, butchered, starved or tortured to death; 50,000 were enslaved; and 23,000 were exiled. During the Greek War of Independence, many Jews, who were traditionally on the Sultan's side, were massacred by the Greek rebels. The Jewish communities of Mistras, Tripolis, Kalamata and Patras were completely destroyed. A few survivors moved north to areas still under Ottoman rule.

Kapodistrias was assassinated in 1831 in Nafplion. As a state of confusion continued in the Greek peninsula, the Great Powers sought a formal end of the war and a recognized government in Greece. The Greek throne was initially offered to Léopold I of Belgium, but he refused, as he was not at all satisfied with the Aspropotamos-Zitouni borderline, which replaced the more favourable Arta-Volos line considered by the Great Powers earlier.

The withdrawal of Léopold as a candidate for the throne of Greece, and the July Revolution in France, delayed the final settlement of the frontiers of the new kingdom until a new government was formed in the United Kingdom. Lord Palmerston, who took over as British Foreign Secretary, agreed to the Arta-Volos borderline. However, the secret note on Crete, which the Bavarian plenipotentiary communicated to the Courts of the United Kingdom, France and Russia, bore no fruit.

In May 1832, Palmerston convened the London Conference of 1832. The three Great Powers (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, July Monarchy France and the Russian Empire) offered the throne to the Bavarian Prince, Otto Wittelsbach, without regard to Greek views on this. The line of succession was also established which would pass the crown to the heirs of Otto, or his younger brothers in succession, should he have no heirs. In no case would the crowns of Greece and Bavaria be joined. As co-guarantors of the monarchy, the Great Powers also empowered their Ambassadors in the Ottoman capital to secure the end of the war. Under the protocol signed on May 7, 1832 between Bavaria and the protecting Powers, and basically dealing with the way in which the Regency was to be managed until Otto reached his majority (while also concluding the second Greek loan, for a sum of £2,400,000 sterling), Greece was defined as an independent kingdom, with the Arta-Volos line as its northern frontier. The Ottoman Empire was given 40,000,000 piastres in compensation for the loss of the territory.

On July 21, 1832 British Ambassador to the Sublime Porte Sir Stratford Canning and the other represenatives of the Great Powers concluded the Treaty of Constantinople, which set the boundaries of the new Greek Kingdom at a line running from Arta (Αρτα) to Volos (Βολος). The borders of the Kingdom were reiterated in the London Protocol of August 30, 1832, signed by the Great Powers, which ratified the terms of the Constantinople Arrangement.

The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics afterwards and with the import of a Bavarian dynasty as the ruler and a mercenary army. The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.

The new state also contained 800,000 people, fewer than one third of the two and a half million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire and for much of the next century the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the “unredeemed” Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, following Megale Idea, the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

As a people, the Greeks no longer provided the princes for the Danubian Principalities and were regarded within the Ottoman Empire, especially by the Muslim population, as traitors. Phanariots who had up to then held high office within the Ottoman Empire were henceforth regarded as suspect and lost their special, privileged category. In Istanbul and the rest of the Ottoman Empire where Greek banking and merchant presence had been dominant, Armenians mostly replaced Greeks in banking and Bulgarian merchants gained importance.

The reasons why the Greeks were the first to break away from the multi-ethnic, multi-religious Ottoman Empire and secure recognition as a sovereign power are several. The fact that the Ottoman Empire was in manifest decline made such a revolt feasible. Some Greeks enjoyed a privileged position in the Ottoman state, and Ottoman Turks had always afforded a specific class of Greeks a degree of power. Since the Hellenisation of the Byzantine Empire they had controlled the affairs of the Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, based in Constantinople, and the higher clergy were always Greek. From the 18th century onwards Phanariot Greek notables (Turkish-appointed Greek administrators from the Phanar district of Constantinople) played an influential role in the governance of the Ottoman Empire.

A strong maritime tradition in the islands of the Aegean together with the emergence in the 18th century of an influential merchant class generated the wealth necessary to found schools and libraries and to pay for young Greeks to study in the universities of Western Europe. Here they came into contact with the radical ideas of the European Enlightenment and the French Revolution. Rigas Velestinlis (Pheraios), aimed to overthrow Ottoman rule in an armed uprising, although Rigas was killed by the Turks before he could put his ideas into practice. In 1814 three young Greeks, much influenced by the martyrdom of Rigas, founded the Filiki Eteria, the secret "Friendly Society" which laid the organizational groundwork for the revolt. The society was founded in Odessa, an important centre of the Greek mercantile diaspora. The Greeks' success marked the beginning of the gradual break-up of the Ottoman Empire, Moreover, the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula were to follow the Greek example in seeking their freedom from Ottoman rule.

Its fascinating to say the least.

[Suraknar]

Some info of the actual organisation, which as you can see had ties throuout the balkans, linked to Romania aswell.


The Filiki Eteria (spelt also Philikí Etaireía, Greek Φιλική Εταιρεία), meaning Friendly Society in Greek, was a secret organisation working in the early 19th century, whose purpose was to overthrow Ottoman rule over Greece and to establish an independent Greek state.

Etairia members were mainly young Phanariot Greeks from Russia and local chieftains from Greece. The Eteria received political and material support from Tsar Alexander I, who had an interest in extending Russian influence in the Balkans.

One of the leaders of the Eteria was Alexander Ypsilanti.

In the context of ardent desire for independence from Turkish occupation and with the explicit influence of secret societies from Europe, three Greeks met one another in 1814 in Odessa and decided the constitution of a secret organisation which would prepare the revolution of all Greeks. These men were 42-year-old Nikolaos Skoufas from Arta province, 42-year-old Emmanuel Ksanthos from Patmos and 26-year-old Athanasios Tsakalov from Epirus. Skoufas had already particular contacts with Konstantinos Rados who was initiated into Carbonarism. Ksanthos was initianted in a Free-Masonic Lodge of Lefkada (Society of Free Builders, of St. Mavra), while Tsakalov was a founding member of the "Greek-speaking Hotel", (Ελληνόγλωσσο Ξενοδοχείο or Ellinoglosso Xenodokheio) a former but not successful society for the liberation of Greece.

The growth of the Friendly Society is impressive. At the beginning during the 1814-1816 period, there were roughly twenty members. During 1817, the Society developed mainly between the Greeks of Russia and of Moldowallachia (Moldavia and Wallachia), but once again its membership does not exceed thirty. They started doing massive initiations in 1818. In 1820 the Society expanded in almost all regions of Greece and most Greek communities abroad. By the first months of 1821, the membership numbered around one thousand and the Society had exceeded her own limits. Among her members there were tradesmen, clergy, executives of the Ottoman Empire from Fanari, chieftains like Theodoros Kolokotronis, Odysseas Androutsos, Dimitris Plapoutas, the metropolite of Old Patras Germanos and more.

The whole structure of the Philiki Etaireia was imitating the organisational models of Carbonarism and Freemasonry. The leading team was called the "Invisible Authority" and was surrounded from the first moment with such secret glamour that everybody believed that a lot of important personalities participated, not only Greeks but also foreigners like Russian czar Alexander I. The reality was that during the start, the Invisible Authority was only the three founders. Then, from 1815 until 1818, five more were added and after Skoufas' death three more were added. In 1818 the Invisible Authority was renamed to "Authority of Twelve Apostles" and each Apostle shouldered the responsibility of a big region.

The whole structure was pyramid-like in form and in the top dominated the "Invisible Authority". No one knew it or had the right to ask who created it. Her commands were executed unquestioned, and members did not have the right to make decisions. The society was called «Temple» and it had four levels of initiation: a) brothers or vlamides, b) the recommended, γ) the priests and d) the shepherds. The Priests were charged with the duty of initiation in the first two levels. When the Priest approached somebody, it was first to make sure of his patriotism and catechize him in the aims of society; the last stage was to put him under oath.

Afterwards the initiated were considered neophyte members of the society, with all the rights and obligations of his rank. The Priest immediately had the obligation to reveal all the marks of recognition between the Vlamides or Brothers. Vlamides and Recommended were unaware of the revolutionary aims of the organisation. They only knew that there existed a society that tried hard for the general good of the nation, which included in its ranks important personalities. This myth was propagated deliberately, in order to stimulate the morale of members and also to make proselytism easier.

n 1818, the seat of Philiki Etaireia had migrated from Odessa to Constantinople, and Skoufas' death had been a serious loss. The rest of the founders attempted to find a major personality to undertake the reins, one who would give prestige and fresh impetus to the Society. In the beginning of 1818, they had a meeting with John Capodistria, who not only refused, but later wrote that he considered Philiki Etaireia guilty for the havoc that was foreboded in Greece. Finally, after many contacts, in April 1820 Alexander Ypsilanti assumed the leadership of Philiki Etaireia, and began active preparations for a revolt. The Filikoi especially wanted to take advantage of the involvement of significant Turkish forces, including the pasha of the Moreas, against Ali Pasha.

Key personalities, good for the Greek Faction Familly tree & generals which could be based on the Filiki Eteria as per above.


Theodoros Kolokotronis (Greek: . Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης, 3 April 1770 - 15 February 1843) was a Greek general in the Greek War of Independence against the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Kolokotronis was born at Ramavouni in Messenia, and grew up in Libovitsi in Arcadia. His father, Constantine Kolokotronis, took part in an armed rebellion which was supported by Catherine the Great of Russia, then was killed in an engagement along with two of his brothers George and Harry. Theodoros joined the ranks of a Peloponnesian guerrilla band, and by age fifteen was the leader ("kapetanios", which means captain) of his own group. He had a brief stint at sea as a corsair, then in 1805 he took service on a series of ships in the Russian fleet in the Russo-Turkish War. After 1810 served in a corps of Greek infantry in English service on Zakynthos, and was awarded the brevet rank of brigadier for his service against the French.

Zakynthos is in the Ionian Islands, which were then a British protectorate after being bandied about between Venice, France and Russia during the Napoleonic Wars. Kolokotronis's service in the regular Russian and British forces, land and sea, would provide valuable insights to be used later in his career.

Kolokotronis returned to the mainland just prior to the outbreak of the war (officially, 25 March 1821) and formed a confederation of irregular Moreot klepht bands. These he tried to train and organize into something resembling a modern army. In May he was named archistrategos -- commanding general. He was already 50-years-old by this time, a fact which contributed to his sobriquet O Geros tou Morea -- "The Old Man of the Morea," Morea being another name for the Peloponnese.

Kolokotronis first action was the defense of Valtetsi, the village near Tripoli where his army was mustering.

He next commanded Greek troops in the siege of the coastal town of Nafplio. He took the port, and the Turkish garrison in the town's twin citadels was running low on supplies, but the disorganized Greek provisional government at Argos, just to the north, could not complete negotiations for its surrender before a large Ottoman force began marching southward to crush the rebels. Panicked, government officials abandoned Argos and began evacuations by sea at Nafplio. Only an under-strength battalion under Demetrios Ypsilantis remained to hold Kastro Larissa, the fortress of Argos.

Kolokotronis gathered the klephts together to march to the relief of Ypsilantis. This was quite a feat in itself, considering the near-collapse of the government and the notoriously quarrelsome nature of the klephtic bands. Even the troublesome Souliots lent a hand.

The Ottoman army from the north commanded by Mahmud Dramali, after taking Corinth had marched to the Plain of Argos. The castle of Kastro Larissa was an excellent position, commanding the whole plain. To leave such a stronghold straddling Turkish supply lines was far too dangerous. Dramali would have to reduce the fortress before moving on. Scaling the cliffs, breaching the castle's stout walls, and overcoming its resolute defenders would be no easy task.

Yet there was one weakness Dramali was unaware of: this citadel, unlike the famous Acropolis in Athens, had no spring and consequently fresh water had to be supplied from cisterns. Unfortunately for the Greeks, it was July and no rains were falling to fill the cisterns. Ypsilantis bluffed the Turks as long as he could, but towards the end of the month had to sneak his men out in the middle of the night. Dramali's men plundered the castle the next day, and he was now free to march them toward the coast to resupply. (The Greeks had pursued a scorched earth policy, and the large Ottoman force was eating through its food supplies rather quickly). Ypsilantis defense had bought Kolokotronis and the klephts valuable time.

To his dismay, Dramali found himself cut off from his supply fleet, which had intended to land at Nafplio but was successfully blockaded by the Greek fleet under Admiral Miaoulis. Dramali reluctantly decided upon a retreat toward Corinth through the Dervenaki Pass, through which he had just come unmolested. This was exactly what Kolokotronis had been hoping for. In August 1822 his quicker-moving guerrilla forces trapped the Turks in the pass and annihilated them. A devastated Sultan Mahmud in Constantinople was forced to turn to Mohamed Ali, ruler of the nominally Ottoman pashaluk of Egypt for help.

The Greeks resumed the siege against the fortresses at Nafplio, which fell in December. Kolokotronis is said to have ridden his horse up the steep slopes of Kastro Palamidi to celebrate his victory there; a statue in the town square commemorates the event. He is attired in something resembling the costume of a hussar topped with a plumed Corinthian helmet, which he was fond of wearing, and which foreign Philhellenes were even fonder of seeing him in. (While he seems to have enjoyed dressing like a Western European cavalryman cum Ancient Greek hoplite, he is also frequently depicted wearing the more traditional fustanella and other Greek accoutrements).

Later in the same year Kolokotrinis's political enemies in the Greek provisional government, led by Petrobey Mavromichalis had him imprisoned in the Palamidi with Dimitris Plapoutas in the same jail, but he was released when an Egyptian army under the command of Ibrahim Pasha invaded the Morea.

Ibrahim was fresh from fighting the Wahhabi rebels in Arabia, and so was used to fighting guerrillas. His troops were armed with the most modern equipment and trained by European experts. The sultan had promised his father the island of Crete as an appanage for young Ibrahim if he could crush the rebels. With his eye on the prize, he burned his way through the Peloponnese, gaining much territory but little sympathy from Western European public opinion, which in the long run proved disastrous for the Turks.

The island of Sphacteria and Navarino had already fallen into Ibrahim's hands, and to make matters worse for Kolokotronis, he still had to be on guard against the machinations of Petrobey Mavromichalis even as he was bracing himself against the new threat.

Kolokotronis used guerrilla tactics to wear Ibrahim's forces down; but given his limited resources, was unable to prevent the widespread destruction that Ibrahim left in his wake. Still, in 1823, in recognition of his military acumen and many services to the Greek cause, he was appointed commander-in-chief of Greek forces in the Peloponnese.

After the war Kolokotronis became a supporter of Count I.A. Kapodistrias and a proponent of alliance with Russia. When the count was assassinated 8 October 1831, Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of Prince Otto of Bavaria as a king of Greece. However, later he opposed the Bavarian-dominated regency during his rule. He was charged with treason and 7 June 1834 sentenced to death; but he was pardoned in 1835.

Theodoros Kolokotronis died in 1843 in Athens.


Laskarina Bouboulina (Greek: Λασκαρίνα Μπουμπουλίνα, 11 May 1771 - 22 May 1825) was a Greek heroine of the Greek War of Independence in 1821.

Bouboulina was born in a prison in Constantinople. She was the daughter of captain Stavrianos Pinotsis and his wife Skevo. The Ottomans had imprisoned Pinotsis because he had taken part in the failed Orlof Revolution of 1769-1770 against the Ottoman rule. Her father died soon afterwards and the mother and the child returned to the island of Hydra. Four years later, when her mother married Dimitrios Lazarou-Orlof, they moved to the island of Spetses. Bouboulina had eight half-siblings.

She married twice, first to Dimitrios Yiannouzas and later to Dimitrios Bouboulis. D. Bouboulis, was killed in a battle against Algerian pirates in 1811. Bouboulina took over his fortune and trading business and built four ships, including one large warship Agamemnon, at her own expense.

In 1816, the Ottomans tried to confiscate Bouboulina's property because her second husband had fought for the Russians against the Turks in the Turko-Russian wars. Bouboulina sailed to Constantinople to meet Russian ambassador Strogonoff to seek his protection because of her husband's services to the Russians. Strogonoff sent her to safety in Crimea. She also met with the mother of Mahmud II who reputedly convinced her son to leave Bouboulina's property alone. After three months of exile in the Crimea, Bouboulina returned to Spetses.

Bouboulina joined the Filiki Etaireia, an underground organization that was preparing for revolution against the Ottoman rule, as its only female member. She bought arms and ammunitions at her own expense and brought them secretly to Spetses in her ships, to fight "For the sake of my nation" as she said. Construction of the ship Agamemnon was finished 1820. It was later one of the largest warships in the hands of Greek rebels. Bouboulina bribed Turkish officials to ignore the ship's size. She also organized her own armed troops, composed of men from Spetses. She used most of her fortune to provide food and ammunition for the sailors and soldiers under her command.

On 13 March 1821 Bouboulina raised her own Greek flag, based on the flag of the Comnenus dynasty of Byzantine emperors, on the mast of Agamemnon. On 3 April the people of Spetses revolted and later joined forces with a number of other ships from other Greek islands. Bouboulina sailed with eight ships to Nafplion and began a naval blockade. She led her own troops until the fall of the fort in 13 November 1822. Later she took part in the naval blockade and capture of Monemvasia and Pylos. In the battle at Argos, Bouboulina's son, Yiannis Yiannouzas, died in combat against superior numbers of Ottoman troops.

She arrived in time to witness the fall of Tripolis on 11 September 1821 and met general Theodoros Kolokotronis. Later their children Eleni Boubouli and Panos Kolokotronis were married. During the ensuing extermination of the Ottoman garison, Bouboulina saved most of the female members of the sultan's household.

After independence, when the opposing factions erupted into a civil war in 1824, the Greek government arrested Bouboulina because of her family connection to now-imprisoned Kolokotronis; the government also killed her son-in-law. She was eventually exiled back to Spetses. She had used all of her fortune for the war of independence.



Petros Mavromichalis (1765-1848) (Greek: Πέτρος Μαυρομιχάλης), also known as Petrobey (Πετρομπέης), was the leader of the Maniot people during the first half of the 19th century.

Mavromichalis' family had a long history of fighting against the Turks (who at that time occupied the rest of Greece). His grandfather Georgakis and his father Pierros were among the leaders of the Orlov Revolt.

The revolt was followed by a period of infighting between the leaders of Mani; soon, young Petros gained a strong reputation for mediating the disputes and reuniting the warring families. During that period he also made an alliance with Napoleon Bonaparte of France, who was fighting in Egypt; Napoleon was to strike the Ottoman Empire in coordination with a Greek revolt. Napoleon's failure in Egypt doomed that plan.

By 1814 the reorganized Maniots again became a threat to the Turks, and the sultan offered a number of concessions to Mavromichalis, including his being named Bey, or Chieftain, of Mani - in effect formalizing the de-facto status of autonomy the region had maintained for years. Still, Petrobey continued to organize the Greek capetanei (commanders) of Morea for the revolution that was soon to come. In 1818 he became a member of Filiki Eteria, and in 1819 he brokered a formal pact among the major capetanei families.

On March 17, 1821, Petrobey raised his war flag in Areopolis, effectively signalling the start of the Greek War of Independence. His troops marched into Kalamata, and liberated the city on March 23.

After the summer of 1822, Petrobey retired from battle, leaving the leadership of his troops to his sons (two of whom were killed fighting). He continued to act as a mediator whenever disputes arose among the capetanei, and acted as the leader of the Messinian Senate, a council of prominent revolutionary leaders. He also tried to seek support from the West by sending a number of letters to leaders and philhellenes in Europe and the United States.

After the revolution, Petrobey became a member of the first Greek Senate, under the leadership of Ioannis Kapodistrias. The two men soon clashed as a result of Kapodistrians insistence of establishing a regional administration based on political appointees, replacing the traditional system of family loyalties. Petros' brother Tzanis led a revolt against the appointed governor of Lakonia; the two brothers were invited to meet Kapodistrias and negotiate a solution but, when they showed up, they were arrested. From his prison cell, Petros tried to negotiate a settlement with Kapodistrias; the latter refused. The crisis was then settled by more traditional means: Petros' brother Konstantinos murdered Kapodistrias on September 27, 1831. Petros publicly disapproved of the murder.

Kapodistrias was followed by king Otto, whose attitude towards the Capetanei was much friendlier. Petros became vice-president of the state council, and later a senator. He died in Athens on January 17, 1848, and was buried with the highest honors.

There were many other key personalities of cource, but the above can be enough to put this mod under context! Looking forward for it :)

[Suraknar]

Some info on Wallachia, if permited, it is an important Faction to the whole deal historically.

Brief history since its begining, I thought Important to bring here for relevance.


Wallachia (also spelled Walachia; Romanian: Ţara Românească or "The Romanian Land") is a historical and geographical region of Romania. It is sometimes referred to as Muntenia, through identification with the larger of its two traditional sections. A principality founded by Basarab I in the late Middle Ages, Wallachia united with Moldavia (the other Danubian Principality) in the 19th century, to form the state of Romania.

In the Second Dacian War (105 AD) western Oltenia became part of the Roman province of Dacia, with parts of Wallachia included in the Moesia Inferior province. The Roman limes was initially built along the Olt River (119), before being moved slightly to the east in the 2nd century — during which time it stretched from the Danube up to Rucăr in the Carpathians. The Roman line fell back to the Olt in 245, and, in 271, the Romans pulled out of the region.

The area was subject to Romanization sometime during the Migration Period, when most of present-day Romania was also subject to the presence of Goths and Sarmatian peoples know as the Mureş-Cerneahov culture, followed by waves of other nomadic peoples. In 328, the Romans built a bridge between Sucidava (Celei) and Oescus (near Gigen) which indicates that there was a significant trade with the peoples north of the Danube (a short period of Roman rule in the area is attested under Emperor Constantine I). The Goths attacked the Roman Empire south of the Danube in 332, settling north of the Danube then later to the south. The period of Goth rule ended when the Huns arrived in the Pannonian Plain, and, under Attila, attacked and destroyed some 170 settlements on both sides of the Danube.

Byzantine influence is evident during the 5th to 6th century, such as the site at Ipoteşti-Cândeşti, but from the second half of the 6th century and in the 7th century Slavic peoples crossed the territory of Wallachia and settled in it, on their way to Byzantium, occupying the southern bank of the Danube. In 593, the Byzantine commander-in-chief Priscus defeated Slavs, Avars and Gepids on future Wallachian territory, and, in 602, Slavs suffered a crucial defeat in the area; Flavius Mauricius Tiberius, who ordered his army to be deployed north of the Danube, encountered his troops' strong opposition.

Wallachia was under the control of the First Bulgarian Empire from its establishment in 681, until approximately the Magyar conquest of Transylvania at the end of the 10th century. With the decline and subsequent fall of the Bulgarian state to Byzantium (in the second half of the 10th century up to 1018), Wallachia came under the control of the Pechenegs (a Turkic people) who extended their rule west through the 10th and 11th century, until defeated around 1091, when the Cumans of southern Russia took control of the lands of Moldavia and Wallachia. Beginning with the 10th century, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Hungarian, and later Western sources mention the existence of small polities, possibly peopled by, among others, Vlachs/Romanians led by knyazes and voivodes - at first in Transylvania, then in the 12th-13th centuries in the territories east and south of the Carpathians.

In 1241, during the Mongol invasion of Europe, Cuman domination was ended - a direct Mongol rule over Wallachia was not attested, but it remains probable. Part of Wallachia was probably briefly disputed by the Hungarian Kingdom and Bulgarians in the following period, but it appears that the severe weakening of Hungarian authority during the Mongol attacks contributed to the establishment of the new and stronger polities attested in Wallachia for the following decades.

One of the first written evidence of local voivodes is in connection with Litovoi (1272), who ruled over land each side of the Carpathians (including Făgăraş in Transylvania), and refused to pay tribute to the Hungarian King Ladislaus IV. His successor was his brother Bărbat (1285-1288). The continuing weakening of the Hungarian state by further Mongol invasions (1285-1319) and the fall of the Árpád dynasty opened the way for the unification of Wallachian polities, and to independence from Hungarian rule.

Wallachia's creation, held by local traditions to have been the work of one Radu Negru, is historically connected with Basarab I (1310-1352), who rebelled against Charles I of Hungary and took up rule on either side of the Olt River, establishing his residence in Câmpulung as the first ruler in the House of Basarab. Basarab refused to grant Hungary the lands of Făgăraş, Amlaş and the Banat of Severin, defeated Charles in the Battle of Posada (1330), and extended his lands to the east, to comprise lands as far as Kilia (in the Bujak, as the origin of Bessarabia); rule over the latter was not preserved by following princes, as Kilia fell to the Nogais ca.1334.

Basarab was succeeded by Nicolae Alexandru, followed by Vladislav I. Vladislav attacked Transylvania after Louis I occupied lands south of the Danube, conceded to recognize him as overlord in 1368, but rebelled again in the same year; his rule also witnessed the first confrontation between Wallachia and the Ottoman Turks (a battle in which Vladislav was allied with Ivan Shishman of Bulgaria). Under Radu I and his successor Dan I, the realms in Transylvania and Severin continued to be disputed with Hungary.

As the entire Balkan Peninsula become an integral part of the emerging Ottoman Empire (a process which concluded with the fall of Constantinople to Sultan Mehmed II in 1453), Wallachia became engaged in frequent confrontations and, in the final years of Mircea the Elder's reign, became an Ottoman subject. Mircea (reigned 1386-1418), initially defeated the Ottomans in several battles (including that of Rovine in 1394), driving them away from Dobruja and briefly extending his rule to the Danube Delta, Dobruja and Silistra (ca.1400-1404). He oscillated between alliances with Sigismund of Hungary and Jagiellon Poland (taking part in the Battle of Nicopolis), and accepted Ottoman suzerainty in 1415, after Mehmed I took control of Turnu and Giurgiu — the two ports remained part of the Ottoman state, with brief interruptions, until 1829. In 1418-1420, Mihail I defeated the Ottomans in Severin, only to be killed in battle by the counter-offensive; in 1422, the danger was averted for a short while when Dan II inflicted a defeat on Murad II with the help of Pippo Spano.

The peace signed in 1428 inaugurated a period of internal crisis, as Dan had to defend himself against Radu Prasnaglava, who led the first in a series of boyar coalitions against established princes (in time, these became overtly pro-Ottoman in answer to repression). Victorious in 1431 (the year when the boyar-backed Alexandru I Aldea took the throne), boyars were dealt successive blows by Vlad II Dracul (1436-1442; 1443-1447), who nevertheless attempted to compromise between the Porte and the Holy Roman Empire.

The following decade was marked by the conflict between the rival houses of Dăneşti and Drăculeşti, the influence of John Hunyadi, Regent of the Kingdom of Hungary, and, after the neutral reign of Vladislav II, by the rise of Vlad III Dracula. Vlad, during whose rule Bucharest was first mentioned as a princely residence, exercised terror on rebellious boyars, cut off all links with the Ottomans, and, in 1462, defeated Mehmed II's offensive during The Night Attack before being forced to retreat to Târgovişte and accepting to pay an increased tribute. His parallel conflicts with the pretenders Radu cel Frumos and Laiotă Basarab brought occupations of Wallachia by the troops of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary and the Moldavian prince Stephen III (1473; 1476-1477). Radu the Great (1495-1508) reached several compromises with the boyars, ensuring a period of internal stability that contrasted his clash with Bogdan the Blind of Moldavia.

he late 1400s saw the ascension of the powerful Craioveşti family, virtually independent rulers of the Oltenian banat, who sought Ottoman support in their rivalry with Mihnea cel Rău (1508-1510) and replaced him with Vlăduţ; after the latter proved to be hostile to the bans, the House of Basarab formally ended with the rise of Neagoe Basarab, a Craioveşti. Neagoe's peaceful rule (1512-1521), noted for its cultural aspects (the building of the Curtea de Argeş Cathedral and Renaissance influences), also saw an increase in influence for the Saxon merchands in Braşov and Sibiu, and Wallachia's alliance with Louis II of Hungary. Under Teodosie, the country was again under a four-month-long Ottoman occupation, a military administration which seemed to be an attempt to create a Wallachian Pashaluk. This danger rallied all boyars in support of Radu de la Afumaţi (four rules between 1522 and 1529), who lost the battle after an agreement between the Craioveşti and Sultan Süleyman the Magnificent; Prince Radu eventually confirmed Süleyman's position as suzerain, and agreed to pay an even higher tribute.

Ottoman suzerainty remained virtually unchallenged throughout the following 90 years. Radu Paisie, who was deposed by Süleyman in 1545, ceded the port of Brăila to Ottoman administration in the same year; his successor Mircea Ciobanul (1545-1554; 1558-1559), a prince without any claim to noble heritage, was imposed on the throne and consequently agreed to a decrease in autonomy (increasing taxes and carrying out an armed intervention in Transylvania — supporting the pro-Turkish John Zápolya). Conflicts between boyar families became stringent after the rule of Pătraşcu cel Bun, and boyar ascendancy over rulers was obvious under Petru the Younger (1559-1568; a reign dominated by Doamna Chiajna and marked by huge increases in taxes), Mihnea Turcitul, and Petru Cercel.

The Ottoman Empire increasingly relied on Wallachia and Moldavia for the supply and matainance of its military forces; the local army, however, soon disappeared due to the increased costs and the much more obvious efficiency of mercenary troops.

Initially profiting from Ottoman support, Michael the Brave ascended to the throne in 1593, and attacked the troops of Murad III north and south of the Danube in an alliance with Transylvania's Sigismund Báthory and Moldavia's Aron Vodă. He soon placed himself under the suzerainty of Rudolf II, the Holy Roman Emperor, and, in 1599-1600, intervened in Transylvania against Poland's king Sigismund III Vasa, placing the region under his authority; his brief rule also extended to Moldavia later in the following year.[28] Following Michael's downfall, Wallachia was occupied by the Polish-Moldavian army of Simion Movilă, who held the region until 1602, and was subject to Nogai attacks in the same year.[29]

The last stage in the Growth of the Ottoman Empire brought increased pressures on Wallachia: political control was accompanied by Ottoman economical hegemony, the discarding of the capital in Târgovişte in favour of Bucharest (closer to the Ottoman border, and a rapidly-growing trade center), the establishment of serfdom under Michael the Brave as a measure to increase manorial revenues, and the decrese in importance of low-ranking boyars (threatened with extinction, they took part in the seimeni rebellion of 1655). Furthermore, the growing importance of appointment to high office in front of land ownership brought about an influx of Greek and Levantine families, a process already resented by locals during the rules of Radu Mihnea in the early 1600s. Matei Basarab, a boyar appointee, brought a long period of relative peace (1632-1654), with the noted exception of the 1653 Battle of Finta, fought between Wallachians and the troops of Moldavian prince Vasile Lupu — ending in disaster for the latter, who was replaced with Prince Matei's favourite, Gheorghe Ştefan, on the throne in Iaşi. A close alliance between Gheorghe Ştefan and Matei's successor Constantin Şerban was maintained by Transylvania's George II Rákóczi, but their designs for independence from Ottoman rule were crushed by the troops of Mehmed IV in 1658-1659. The reigns of Gheorghe Ghica and Grigore I Ghica, the sultan's favourites, signified attempts to prevent such incidents; however, they were also the onset of a violent clash between the Băleanu and Cantacuzino boyar families, which was to mark Wallachia's history until the 1680s. The Cantacuzinos, threatened by the alliance between the Băleanus and the Ghicas, backed their own choice of princes (Antonie Vodă din Popeşti and George Ducas) before promoting themselves — with the ascension of Şerban Cantacuzino (1678-1688).

Now for the part relevant to this mod :)

Wallachia became a target for Habsburg incursions during the last stages of the Great Turkish War ca.1690, when the ruler Constantin Brâncoveanu secretly and unsuccessfully negotatied an anti-Ottoman coalition. Brâncoveanu's reign (1688-1714), noted for its late Renaissance cultural achievements, also coincided with the rise of Imperial Russia under Emperor Peter the Great — he was approached by the latter during the Russo-Turkish War of 1710-1711, and lost his throne and life sometime after sultan Ahmed III caught news of the negotiations. Despite his denounciation of Brâncoveanu's policies, Ştefan Cantacuzino attached himself to Habsburg projects and opened the country to the armies of Prince Eugene of Savoy; he was himself deposed and executed in 1716.

Immediately following the depostion of Prince Ştefan, the Ottomans renounced the purely nominal elective system (which had by then already witnessed the decrease in importance of the Boyar Divan over the sultan's decision), and princes of the two Danubian Principalities were appointed from the Phanariotes of Istanbul. Inaugurated by Nicholas Mavrocordatos in Moldavia after Dimitrie Cantemir, Phanariote rule was brought to Wallachia in 1715 by the very same ruler. The tense relations between boyars and princes brought a decrease in the number of taxed people (as a privilege gained by the former), a subsequent increase in total taxes, and the enlarged powers of a boyar circle in the Divan.

In parallel, Wallachia became the battleground in a succession of wars between the Ottomans on one side and Russia or the Habsburg Monarchy on the other. Mavrocordatos himself was deposed by a boyar rebellion, and arrested by Habsburg troops during the Austro-Turkish War of 1716-18, as the Ottomans had to concede Oltenia to Charles VI of Austria (the Treaty of Passarowitz). The region, subject to an enlightened absolutist rule that soon disenchanted local boyars, was returned to Wallachia in 1739 (the Treaty of Belgrade, upon the close of the Austro-Turkish War of 1737-39). Prince Constantine Mavrocordatos, who oversaw the new change in borders, was also responsible for the effective abolition of serfdom in 1746 (which put a stop to the exodus of peasants into Transylvania); during this period, the ban of Oltenia moved his residence from Craiova to Bucharest, signalling, alongside Mavrocordatos' order to merge his personal treasury with that of the country, a move towards centralism.

In 1768, during the Fifth Russo-Turkish War, Wallachia was placed under its first Russian occupation (helped along by the rebellion of Pârvu Cantacuzino). The Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca (1774) allowed Russia to intervene in favour of Eastern Orthodox Ottoman subjects, curtailing Ottoman pressures — including the decrease in sums owed as tribute — and, in time, relatively increasing internal stability while opening Wallachia to more Russian interventions.

Habsburg troops, under Prince Josias of Coburg, again entered the country during the Russo-Turkish-Austrian War, deposing Nicholas Mavrogenis in 1789. A period of crisis followed the Ottoman recovery: Oltenia was devastated by the expeditions of Osman Pazvantoğlu, a powerful rebellious pasha whose raids even caused prince Constantine Hangerli to lose his life on suspicion of treason (1799), and Alexander Mourousis to renounce his throne (1801). In 1806, the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812 was partly instigated by the Porte's deposition of Constantine Ypsilantis in Bucharest — in tune with the Napoleonic Wars, it was instigated by the French Empire, and also showed the impact of the Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca (with its permissive attitude towards Russian political influence in the Danubian Principalities); the war brought the invasion of Mikhail Andreyevich Miloradovich.

After the Peace of Bucharest, the rule of Ioan Gheorghe Caragea, although remembered for a major plague epidemic, was notable for its cultural and industrial ventures. During the period, Wallachia increased its strategic importance for most European states interested in supervising Russian expansion; consulates were opened in Bucharest, having an indirect but major impact on Wallachian economy through the protection they extended to sudiţi traders (who soon competed successfully against local guilds).

The death of prince Alexander Soutzos in 1821, coinciding with the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence, established a boyar regency which attempted to block the arrival of Scarlat Callimachi to his throne in Bucharest. The parallel uprising in Oltenia, carried out by the Pandur leader Tudor Vladimirescu, although aimed at overthrowing the ascendancy of Greeks, compromised with the Greek revolutionaries in the Filiki Eteria and allied itself with the regents, while seeking Russian support.

On March 21, 1821, Vladimirescu entered Bucharest. For the following weeks, relations between him and his allies worsened, especially after he sought an agreement with the Ottomans; Eteria's leader Alexander Ypsilantis, who had established himself in Moldavia and, after May, in northern Wallachia, viewed the alliance as broken — he had Vladimirescu executed, and faced the Ottoman intervention without Pandur or Russian backing, suffering major defeats in Bucharest and Drăgăşani (before retreating to Austrian custody in Transylvania). These violent events, which had seen the majority of Phanariotes siding with Ypsilantis, made Sultan Mahmud II place the Principalities under its occupation (evicted by a request of several European powers), and sanction the end of Phanariote rules: in Wallachia, the first prince to be considered a local one after 1715 was Grigore IV Ghica. Although the new system was confirmed for the rest of Wallachia's existence as a state, Ghica's rule was abruptly ended by the devastating Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829.

The 1829 Treaty of Adrianople, without overturning Ottoman suzerainty, placed Wallachia and Moldavia under Russian military rule, awarding them the first common institutions and the semblance of a constitution. Wallachia was returned ownership of Brăila, Giurgiu (both of which soon developed into major trading cities on the Danube), and Turnu Măgurele. The treaty also allowed Moldavia and Wallachia to freely trade with countries other than the Ottoman Empire, which signalled substantial economic and urban growth, as well as improving the peasant situation. Many of the provisions had been specified by the 1826 Akkerman Convention between Russia and the Ottomans (it had never been fully implemented in the three-year interval). The duty of overseeing of the Principalities was left to Russian general Pavel Kiselyov; this interval was marked by a series of major changes, including the reestablishment of a Wallachian Army (1831), a tax reform (which nonetheless confirmed tax exemptions for the privileged), as well as major urban works in Bucharest and other cities. In 1834, Wallachia's throne was occupied by Alexandru II Ghica — a move in contradiction with the Adrianople treaty, as he had not been elected by the new Legislative Assembly; removed by the suzerains in 1842, he was replaced with an elected prince, Gheorghe Bibescu.

Opposition to Ghica's arbitrary and highly conservative rule, together with the rise of liberal and radical currents, was first felt with the protests voiced by Ion Câmpineanu (quickly repressed); subsequently, it became increasingly conspiratorial, and centered on those secret societies created by young officers such as Nicolae Bălcescu and Mitică Filipescu.

Frăţia, a clandestine movement created in 1843, began planning a revolution to overthrow Bibescu and repeal Regulamentul Organic in 1848 (inspired by the European rebellions of the same year). Their pan-Wallachian coup d'état was initially successful only near Turnu Măgurele, where crowds cheered the Islaz Proclamation (June 21); among others, the document called for political freedoms, independence, land reform, and the creation of a national guard. On June 11-12, the movement was successful in deposing Bibescu and establishing a Provisional Government. Although sympathetic to the anti-Russian goals of the revolution, the Ottomans were pressured by Russia into repressing it: Ottoman troops entered Bucharest on September 13. Russian and Turkish troops, present until 1851, brought Barbu Dimitrie Ştirbei to the throne, during which interval most participants in the revolution were sent into exile.

Briefly under renewed Russian occupation during the Crimean War, Wallachia and Moldavia were given a new status with a neutral Austrian administration (1854-1856) and the Treaty of Paris: a tutelage shared by Ottomans and a Congress of Great Powers (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the Second French Empire, the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia, the Austrian Empire, Prussia, and, albeit never again fully, Russia), with a kaymakam-led internal administration. The emerging movement for a union of the Danubian Principalities (a demand first voiced in 1848, and a cause cemented by the return of revolutionary exiles) was advocated by the French and their Sardinian allies, supported by Russia and Prussia, but was rejected or suspicioned by all other overseers.

After an intense campaign, a formal union was ultimately granted: nevertheless, elections for the ad-hoc divans of 1859 profited from a legal ambiguity (the text of the final agreement specified two thrones, but did not prevent any single person same person from taking part in and winning elections in both Bucharest and Iaşi). Alexander John Cuza, who ran for the unionist Partida Naţională, won the elections in Moldavia on January 5; Wallachia, which was expected by the unionists to carry the same vote, returned a majority of anti-unionists to its divan.

Those elected changed their allegiance after a mass protest of Bucharest crowds, and Cuza was voted prince of Wallachia on February 5 (January 24 Old Style), consequently confirmed as Domnitor of the United Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia (of Romania from 1861). Internationally recognized only for the duration of his reign, the union was irreversible after the ascension of Carol I in 1866 (coinciding with the Austro-Prussian War, it came at a time when Austria, the main opponent of the decision, was not in a position to intervene).

Darn, I went throught flashes of MTW and RTW while reading this History on both countries :book:

[meliritos]

Thank you very much for your study. Any help is welcome at the moment, and the suggestions will form the final form of the mod. I give it two weeks, until 16 March 2007 for all people to submit ideas in this thread. Recruitment of mod members will be open beyond this date. However new ideas will be discussed till 16 March, and after this date the mod members will start materializing this project.
Feel free to make any kind of suggestions for this mod

[Suraknar]

Oh you are welcome, it was a pleasure exploring that side of the world in a period where most are refering to the Napoleonic wars...in reality there is material in all of europe for a renaissance to napoleon to balkans Total War in that period effectivelly covering all europe, and sourounding area.

In any case, in light of the history here, I think maybe considering including Russia and Hungary & Austria in the list of factions maybe proper for this mod?

[meliritos]

This idea is under consideration and we can discuss it further. Another is to have the following factions for The Greeks, the British, the French and the Russians, the Ottoman Empire and Ali Pasha of Yannina (and Austria for that matter). The idea is to focus this mod only to the greek revolution and to the main powers of the time which helped in the formation of the greek state. In the next release (should there be one of course), we can make the revolution of the other Balkan states, like Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia, which gained their independence some 50 yaers later.
As for the involvement of Britain, France and Russia it is well known fact that without their help Greeces revolution would never have succeded, but it is also true that each of the three powers wanted to put Greece under its own sphere of influence. So the mod will litterally put this in effect with Russia, Britain, France (and maybe Austria) or Ali Pasha trying to take over Greece, Turkey trying to re-take it, and Greece fighting for independence.
To tell you the truth that was the original idea of mine but i thought it would be too Greek-centric and i never went public with it. The map in this case will come to include the Balkans or only Greece (with its contemporary borders) and Asia Minor. Of course Greeces map will be bigger than in the RTW map and the cities will be more than Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Larissa and Thessalloniki.
Anyway what do you people think?

[Filibustería]

You could ask Napoloenic 2 total war team to use models and/or animations, since the 2 mods cover the same period. You could take one of their models, and then re-model it to look more eastern, i dont know.

[Filibustería]

that way you would save hours of work...

[meliritos]

All the models will be original, made from scratch. I will see to it. Animations, yes, maybe i will borrow asking for permission from the authors of the aforementioned or other mod. But as far as models are concerned i will do them myself. The mod needs people with scripting skills, a mapper, and some skinners (i wll help with skinning).

[Suraknar]

A cooperative moding community is the best it can get :)

This mod will require lots of changes since lots of mechanics pertain to completelly different periods here. So that is actually a very good idea to ask permission fon NapoleonTW Mod.

I gave this some though before going to bed yesterday, you may want to evaluate going with the initial Factions list.

The Ottoman Empire (of course)
Greece
Bulgaria
Serbia
Moldova
Wallachia
Albania
Montenegro
Bosnia
Egypt
Armenia

And add, Russia, Hungary, France & England as a strategically (linked to actuall historical battle locations) placed Mercenaries, that players of certain factions can have access to to bolster their rebel armies but also represent the historical aid and participation of these powers in this Revolution with some degree of accuracy.

For insatnce Romanian faction could have access to Russian and Hungarian troops, while Greece, Russian French and British etc..

That way you can keep the map restricted to the balkans and anatolia, concentrate on that region and reduce the number of factions to something more manageable as initially intended. Getting too ambitious can actually kill a mod down the line if the workload is too heavy.

A possible suggestion

[Suraknar]

Some additional Info about the vents around this Mod.


Serbia, officially the Republic of Serbia (Serbian: Република Србија or Republika Srbija)

Serbs settled the region by 630 AD, having been invited by the Byzantine emperor Heraclius. They were fully converted to Christianity by 865 AD. The roots of the Serbian state date back to the 7th century and the House of Vlastimirović. A Serbian kingdom (centered around Duklja) was established in the 11th century. It lasted until the end of the 12th century.

Serbs formed four distinct independent kingdoms by the 14th century — in Dioclea, Rascia, Syrmia and Bosnia.. Of those, the most viable was Raška, formed in the 12th century by the Serbian Grand Župan Stefan Nemanja. In 1220, under Stefan the First Crowned, Serbia became a kingdom, and rose from Byzantine, Bulgarian and Hungarian patronage. In 1346, Stefan Dušan established the Serbian Empire.

The Empire was disintegrated and fell to the Ottoman Turks after the historic Battle of Kosovo in 1389. The northern Serbian territories (the Serbian Despotate) were conquered in 1459 following the siege of the "temporary" capital Smederevo. Bosnia fell a few years after Smederevo, and Herzegovina in 1482. Belgrade was the last major Balkan city to endure Ottoman onslaughts, as it joined Catholic Royal Hungary, following heavy Turkish defeat in Siege of Belgrade of 1456. It held out for another 70 years, succumbing to the Ottomans in 1521, alongside greater part of Hungary that was soon conquered. Another shortlasting incarnation of the Serbian state was the one of Emperor Jovan Nenad in 16th-century Vojvodina, however it also collapsed to the Ottoman Empire, before finally passing to the Habsburg Empire, where it would remain for centuries to come.

Following the collapse of Serbian Empire in Battle of Kosovo, between 1459 and 1804, Serbia was under the Ottoman occupation, despite three Austrian invasions and numerous rebellions (such as the Banat Uprising). Islam was in a period of expansion during this time, especially in Raška, Kosovo and Bosnia. The Ottoman period was a defining one in the history of the country; Slavic, Byzantine, Arabic and Turkish cultures suffused. Many contemporary cultural traits can be traced back to Ottoman period. However the majority of the Serbs managed to keep their culture and religion through the long period of Ottoman rule. Despite three Austrian occupations and numerous rebellions, two-thirds of the modern state had remained under Ottoman rule until the early 19th century. Northern third of the modern country, Vojvodina, has endured a century long Ottoman occupation before passing to Habsburg Empire in the 17th century, only to proclaim independence from Austria-Hungary in 1918.

The First Serbian Uprising of 1804–13, led by Đorđe Petrović (also known as Karađorđe or "Black George"), and the Second Serbian Uprising of 1815 resulted in autonomy and self-governance of the new Principality of Serbia (previously Pashaluk of Belgrade) from the Porte. As it was semi-independent from the Ottoman Empire, it is considered to be the precursor of the formation of modern Serbia. After the Ottomans were definitely expelled the in 1867, Serbia de facto secured its sovereignty, which was formally recognised internationally at the Congress of Berlin in 1878.

From 1815 to 1903, the Serbian state was ruled by the House of Obrenović, except from 1842 to 1858, when Serbia was ruled by Prince Aleksandar Karađorđević. In 1903, the House of Obrenović was replaced by the House of Karađorđević, who were descendants of Đorđe Petrović.

In the northern part of present-day Serbia that was ruled by the Austrian Empire, the local Serbs created in 1848 their autonomous region known as the Serbian Vojvodina. The region was in 1849 transformed into new Austrian crownland known as the Vojvodina of Serbia and Tamiš Banat. Although the crownland was abolished in 1860, the Serbs from the Vojvodina region gained another opportunity to achieve their political demands in 1918.

The struggle for liberty, modern society and a nation-state in Serbia lasted almost three decades and was completed with the adoption of the constitution on 15 February 1835. In 1876, Montenegro, Serbia, and Bosnia declared war against the Ottoman Empire and proclaimed their unification. However, the 1878 Treaty of Berlin, which was signed at the Congress of Berlin by the Great Powers, granted complete independence only to Serbia and Montenegro, leaving Bosnia and Sanjak of Novi Pazar to Austria-Hungary, who blocked their unification until the Balkan Wars of 1912 and 1913 and World War I.

[Suraknar]

Oki this maybe interesting...


Montenegro (Serbian/Montenegrin: Црна Гора or Crna Gora, pronounced /'t͡sr̩naː 'ɡɔra/), officially the Republic of Montenegro (Република Црна Гора or Republika Crna Gora)

Slav tribes, mixed with Illyrians, Avars and Romans, formed the semi-independent dukedom of Duklja by the tenth century. In 1077, Pope Gregory VII recognized Duklja as an independent state, acknowledging its King Mihailo (Michael) (of the Vojislavljević dynasty founded by nobleman Stefan Vojislav) as rex Docleae (King of Duklja). The kingdom, however, paid tribute to the Byzantine Empire and later to the Bulgarian Empire; it gave birth to the medieval kingdom of the Serbian Grand Prince (Serbian: župan) Stefan Nemanja, who originated from Duklja.

The Principality of Zeta (which more closely corresponds to the early modern state of Montenegro) asserted itself about 1360. The House of Balšić (1360s–1421) and the House of Crnojević (1421–1499) ruled Zeta. Although the Ottoman Empire controlled the lands to the south and east from the 15th century, it never fully conquered Zeta.

In 1516, the secular prince Đurađ Crnojević abdicated in favour of the Archbishop Vavil, who then made Montenegro into a theocratic state under the rule of the prince-bishop (known as владика, vladika) of Cetinje, a position held from 1697 by the Petrović-Njegoš family of the Riđani clan. Petar Petrović Njegoš, perhaps the most influential vladika, reigned in the first half of the 19th century. In 1851, Danilo II Petrović Njegoš became vladika, but in 1852 he married, left the priesthood, assumed the title of knjaz (Prince), and transformed his land into a secular principality.

In 1910, Prince Nikola I became King of Montenegro. Two years later, in October, 1912, King Nikola declared war on the Ottoman Empire, precipitating the two Balkan Wars. The Montenegrin army attacked the Ottoman fortress city of Skutari, and forced the empire to gather a large army in neighbouring Macedonia. This Ottoman army was then attacked by the forces of Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria which entered the war by pre-arrangement. The result was a military disaster for the Ottomans, who were thrown back to an area north of Constantinople.

Montenegro emerged from the Balkan Wars doubled in size, receiving half of the former Ottoman territory known as the Sanjak of Novi Pazar, but without Skutari, the country's major prize in the war. The London Conference awarded Skutari to an independent Albania.

During World War I, Montenegro was part of the allies. In the course of the war, Montenegro was occupied by Austro-Hungarian troops. Feldmarschalleutnant Viktor Weber von Webenau became Military Governor of Montenegro on February 26, 1916. In 1918, the Podgorica Assembly voted for uniting Montenegro with the Kingdom of Serbia. However, pro-independence Montenegrins revolted on Christmas Day 1919 against Serbia. The revolt was brutally suppressed in 1924.

After World War II, from 1945 to 1992, Montenegro separated from Serbia and became a constituent republic in its own right, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. It was during this time that the present capital Podgorica was renamed Titograd, after Josip Broz Tito, dictator of Yugoslavia. Over the next half century, Montenegro remained one of six constituent republics of Yugoslavia.

Independent from the late Middle Ages until 1918, the country was later a part of various incarnations of Yugoslavia and the state union of Serbia and Montenegro. Based on the results of a referendum held on May 21, 2006, Montenegro declared independence on June 3, 2006. On June 28, Montenegro became the 192nd member state of the United Nations.

I think it would be safe to say that Montenegro can be totally independent and not a playable faction in this mod, since it remained relativelly independent and unconquered by the Ottoman Empire, it could start as part of the "Rebel" faction in relation to this mod and the period it targets.


Bringing the original list, should you decide to go forth with it, to this:

The Ottoman Empire (of course)
Greece
Bulgaria
Serbia
Moldova
Wallachia
Albania
Bosnia
Egypt
Armenia

Ahh yes, it can have MERC units that Serbian Faction can recruit to bolster its own rebell forces.

[Suraknar]

An interesting Map of the region can help shape this mod's Map as far as the Balkans go.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2d/Balkans1912.jpg/367px-Balkans1912.jpg

As we can see this is a map of the balkans dating from 1856 to 1878, Greece is far from having its present shape, so I think it could be safe to have this Mod run from 1821 to 1900...which would also validate the inclusion of the other powers and rebellions.

From this map we can certaintly confirm

Turkey
Serbia
Bulgaria
Greece
Wallachia (Romania)
Moldova (Romania)
Bosnia
(Rebel) non playable

Factions...

Armenia is yet to be confirmed I am researching on it now.

Egypt could be excluded(a a faction) if you wish, so a possible map could be from Austro-Hungary- Black sea & part of Russia - Caucasus (West to east) and from Austo Hungary to mediteranean south of Crete.

That would include Cyprus south of eastern Turkey.

Egypt's participation (as part of the Ottoman Faction) could be an event like invasion challenging the Greek Faction from the south in pelloponesus.

What do you think Meliritos, Rex? feasable?

[Filibustería]

I like that map.

I managed to get this, hope its useful:

Revolutionary commanders:

Theodoros Kolokotronis
Alexander Yplisanti

Turkish commanders:

Omer Vryonis
Dramalis
Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt

Important battles:

Dragashani
Skuleni
Tripoli
Alamana
Gravia
Valtesi
Doliana
Chios
Dervenakia
Pea
Karpenizi
Gerontas
Maniaki
Mills of Lema
Missolonghi
Mani
Phaleron
Navarino

[meliritos]

Firstly, thanks for the feedback guys. The idea of having foreign troops as mercenaries is nice. We could also make the egyptians as mercenaries for the Ottoman empire. The root list of greek faction members ( i have already found icons for them) is: (only the surnames)
Kolokotronis
Karaiskakis
Makriyiannis
Papaflessas (He was an Orthodox Priest, so priest units in the Greek faction will have + in fighting skills compared to vanilla RTW. If there is historic evidence that other nations had priests that fought during the uprising we will add offensive skills to them as well)
Nikitaras
D. Ipsilantis
Miaoulis
Kanaris
Diakos
Androutsos
Bouboulina
Mavrogenous (this and the previous one were women that took part in the greek revolution)

[KLAssurbanipal]

Do You have modeller/skinner? Units for mod will be hard to make.

[meliritos]

Ill do the modelling. I spent the whole weekend modelling for Inca Total War and the mod was not my idea in the first place, imagine what ill do for my baby. I can help with skinning

[Caesar Vastator]

What about battle AI? From what i know the AI is not totally moddable and use the AI of roman era is not too good for 19th century..... There are none 17th/18th/19th century single player mod because of the AI problem..

[Suraknar]

What about battle AI? From what i know the AI is not totally moddable and use the AI of roman era is not too good for 19th century..... There are none 17th/18th/19th century single player mod because of the AI problem..

What do you mean exactly? Why would the AI not be suitable?

Are we talking about Battle AI?

[meliritos]

And there are other mods that refer to the same time era. I saw one called pike and musket, i think. We will have to change buildings and such thats for sure but i believe we can change, them, cant we?

[Suraknar]

I think this maybe refering to gunpowder.

I am assuming any Gunpowder units would simply be made as missile type, however, many battles in that revolution still employ lots of swords fights, charging cavalry with swords as well.

bayonet fights could be switching to a secondary type of weapon or even a sword or knife.

I am not clear as to which AI we are talking about still.

Maybe refering to mechanics of Shooting ranks and the such?

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Hy,
I have came back now, and thank you for your offer.
I have read all the possible plans, and after much thinking i have come with an idea to make this mod possible.I basically agree with all what you have said , howewer i think you should make the map to cover all the Balkans.

I suggest to cut out Moldavia from the map, because if you make Moldavia on the map from a geographicall point of view you will be forced to include also Transilvania, and the Habsburgic faction wich had little role in all these events...

The northern edge of the map should be represented by the Carpathian Mountains. In western Wallachia , province of Oltenia (i will help making 10 provinces for Wallachia - not more, 10 is enough), will start with an army Tudor Vladimirescu, while in eastern Wallachia will be located Alexander Ypsilanty`s Eterian army, an ally of Tudor Vladimirescu. The army of Alexander Ypsilany should be scripted to attack the turkish garrisons on the Danube and to cross the river into Bulgaria, to help the locals launch rebellions. Its ultimate goal will be Greece, as it was planned in real history. Or more simply, the player who plays with Greece should have this army stationed overthere, to launch attacks against the Ottomans in the Balkans and to make the other nations rebel.

About the inclusion of Western Nations, i suggest using a similar way, making them single armyes allied to the Greeks. Egypt should also start with an army, on ships, located somewhere near Crete, with the intention of joining the Turkish Allies. I think Greece should have about 50-60 provinces, many islands, because it was difficult terrain.

I propose a map covering the following area to be included :

https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5759/mapbalkanstb0.png (https://imageshack.us)


NUMBER 1 IS ARMY OF TUDOR VLADIMIRESCU
NUMBER 2 IS ARMY OF ALEXANDER YPSILANTY
NUMBER 3 IS EGYPTYAN FLEET

So could be the western armies added ~ :)

[Suraknar]

The only thing that lingers in my mind in relation to this mod is actually M2TW...

Its already made to support all that which this mod endeavors, and I feel it maybe double the effort.

Its like why make a medieval TW mod for the RTW when there is M2TW?

It is still your decision Meliritos, this is your idea I am willing to offer reseach support, and depending how things evolve (and time permits) even more, (I can Model and Skinn aswell, script to a certain extent but not really code, althought I can't commit yet for these parts).

[meliritos]

Hmmm MTW2 was my original idea in the first place but i know they cant model new units yet for that game, am i not right? And imagine what would happen if they never release the tools to put new models in game. Our efforts would be for nothing. Thats why i thought o RTW 1.6 because it is more modable, isnt that right? About the army of Ipsilantis, we can assign the Sacred Band of his to the wallachian and the greek faction. But from what you say rex i conclude that you want to make ipsilantis army like the Huns faction in B.I, i mean kinda nomadic? I thought that any faction will have three cities rebeling for it and so the campaign starts. The only thing is that wallachia will have ipsilanits army from the start and greece after a while.

[meliritos]

Now about the map. Its not bad, but could you put the rough names in the wider territories? I know where greece, turkey and bulgaria is but that little green thinky above greeces macedonia is fyrom? they hadnt fyrom back then. Anyway post the names of the territories to make it clearer.
For the game: Every faction will have two or three cities rebelling simultaneously. (A. Three cities or B. Two cities and an army on the map). The object of the game will be to conquer with your faction what your factions borders are TODAY (I mean the greek faction liberates what greece is today, the bulgarians bulgaria today and so on) or you can continue the game and conquer the rest of the map.

[Suraknar]

Very Interesting ideas here Rex.

Yes I also like having Ypsilanti start historically and moving downwards, as it moves to the south event triggers revolutions in various settlements for appropriate factions to simulate the revolution.

This map looks modern btw :)

Having allied forces as arriving in an event fashion is also interesting, however I think it may remove a bit of strategical decision making on the part of player in contrast to having them in merc queues.

What do you think?

It will depend on how you want to make this merilitos, do you want a RL scripted approach or a CA Classical approach to it?

A RL scripted approach would be to force the player to follow historical movement evolution and events.

CA classical (how I call it) approach sets the opening as historically accurate as possible within Historical parameters also, but lets the player evolve history from that point onwards (I am sure we all understand that approach, we been playing these game).

[meliritos]

the later better. I prefer to have the three main powers of that time (G. Britain, France, Russia) as merc. This is definite. As for the army of ipsilantis my only objection is to what faction will he belong? I prefer to have the sacred band units (ipsilantis army was called the sacred band) for the greek and maybe the wallachian faction if you like, but not having him as a nomad faction running around the Balkans. And the Wallachians wont necessary be allies to the greek in the game. Maybe we can remake the march of his army as a separate campaign.

[Suraknar]

Now about M2TW, your right, I only recently got in to it and wasnt aware of all its modding possibilities I am realising now that its not as extended yet.

On the other hand, seems like it is a better version of the RTW engine which opens up possibilities lots of the processes of RTW modding are applicable. I just dont know to which extent as of yet.

And I am also getting the feeling of some issues going behind the stage of "political nature"...might be wrong...just a feeling.

[meliritos]

we will politics out of our mod. The map looks fine BUT: rex's map will be the territories each faction must conquer in order to win. But at first everything will be Ottoman empire. The player will start with two cities and stronger army or three cities and a weaker army in his faction territory (it wil be nice if we can choose which cities we are going to have at the beggining). But for example a player that plays the Greek faction wont be able to start from Bucarest or Sofia.

[Suraknar]

yes I agree on politics, I was not refering to this mod btw, was refering the general atmosphere of M2TW ;)

Now on to the Mod, it is possible to start the player with just one army, and have a trigger that will cause several cities of our choosing initially part of the Otoman empire switch faction. I am not the best for this kind of scripting but as I understand it, it is possible.

[Suraknar]

In any case, I made some more research, this time of Armenia.

If you wish I can bring the findings here however, Armenia since the 13th Century has not really been independent and was ruled by invaders.

It really became Independent in the 20th century, inspite of its very long standing History going back as far as 6000 BC.

So I think we can safelly say that Armenia is not part of the time period of this Mod.

[meliritos]

armenia is definetely out
The factions for our first attemprt can be
Ottoman empire
Greece
Bulgraria
Wallachia
Serbia
and maybe the Ali Pasha of Ioannina

G.B
France
Russia
and Austria maybe as merc

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Hmm, the map is modern and is good to nothing, but i used it as a reference for the geographicall area which i suggest this mod should encorporate. ~:)


. But from what you say rex i conclude that you want to make ipsilantis army like the Huns faction in B.I, i mean kinda nomadic?

As for the army of ipsilantis my only objection is to what faction will he belong? I prefer to have the sacred band units (ipsilantis army was called the sacred band) for the greek and maybe the wallachian faction if you like, but not having him as a nomad faction running around the Balkans

Hmm... can we make him be Greek army then ? Something like in the Crusades, a rather distant and isolated greek army in the Wallachian wayting to come and join the rest of the forces, but in order to do this they will need to cross the Balkans... hmm, just some suggestions ~:) It would be quite interesting to attempt marching the Eterians of Ypsilanty to join the rest of the Greek forces.

Historically speaking, There are 2 armies in Wallachian Land at that moment, the army of Tudor Vladimirescu and the army of Alexander Ypsilanti. They where allied but not united. Unfortunately for both of them, in real history they had a conflict and Ypsilanti tried and killed Vladimirescu. The "Pandurii" of Vladimirescu because of this did not join in great number the armyes of the Eteria afterwards, leading to the defeat of the heavily ountnumbered Eterians in Wallachia after some bloody battles against the Turks.





Now on to the Mod, it is possible to start the player with just one army, and have a trigger that will cause several cities of our choosing initially part of the Otoman empire switch faction. I am not the best for this kind of scripting but as I understand it, it is possible.

I agree, it is more than interesting. But still, it would be nice if somehow we would be able to make some Ottoman strongholds in certain points. It will make very interesting for the balkanic faction plauer to attempt eliminating all the resistance, while the Ottoman player will need to concentrate in defending these strongpoints, gather forces and launch a counter-attack.



Having allied forces as arriving in an event fashion is also interesting, however I think it may remove a bit of strategical decision making on the part of player in contrast to having them in merc queues.

Very good ide with the mercenary ! But, what if the allied armyes appear from the very begining (not scripted) and they start as belonging to the faction to wich they are allied... such as the Egyptians start as a Turkish fleet, etc.

[Suraknar]

I agree, it is more than interesting. But still, it would be nice if somehow we would be able to make some Ottoman strongholds in certain points. It will make very interesting for the balkanic faction plauer to attempt eliminating all the resistance, while the Ottoman player will need to concentrate in defending these strongpoints, gather forces and launch a counter-attack.

Oh yes of cource, the trigger is not meant to turn the whole country of a faction in to that factions possesions.

As an exemple, lets assume(theoretically) that Wallachia has a total of 10 territories, there could be revolutions in 3-5 of them, leaving the other 7-5 for the player to take.

While this would be the situation of the wallachian faction, the revolutions can hapen in all revolting factions in the same faction, so the Turk facton has to deal with multiple fronts while each revolting faction has to deal with their local Turking strongholds, so yes, I agree with you here, it still needs to be a strugle to to free one's own faction. :) Or a Strugle to for the Turk player to hold on to a revolting empire.

Two types of tactical situation are opening here :)



Very good ide with the mercenary ! But, what if the allied armyes appear from the very begining (not scripted) and they start as belonging to the faction to wich they are allied... such as the Egyptians start as a Turkish fleet, etc.

This is something that we can actually try while we play test the mod. It is easy to move Units from bellonging to a certain faction or being mercenaries, so we can try both in practice and see which is more fun and challenging and make a decision there, both present unique way of playing this out.

One of the main reasons however I am more for the merc approach is that these troops can be more disciplined and trained as professional armies compared to the rebells of each faction.

While important to have in any army, their availability was historically limited, hence the merc queues, it up to the player to assign them to the proper fronts.

If they are buildable by factions it would be a bit odd to have armies full of foreign troops...no?

In other words, it is a Wallachian revolution not a British, French or Russian revolution.

I still think that we should test both approaches nevertheless.

[meliritos]

Hmmm thats ver nice. But well need some people with scripting experience (much scripting experience) one more modeller, one to make the map. Thats for starters. Rex Suraknar do you know anybody who can help us?

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Map is coming... tommorow the map heights is finished (thanks to BHD and his tutorial). Today i am working on it and progress is VERY GOOD.

It will be usable (i am currently tweaking a little the islands in order for us to be able to make settlements on them, howewer i will stick to geographicall accuracy and keeping the proportions - it will be 99% geographically accurate and 2% pixels ~:) - ,howewer we will still have to use later the Map Editor (wich i do not now yet how to use it properly) for making the mountains look good, etc.

It covers the same area covered by the map i have posted before.

[Suraknar]

Very Good News Rex! :2thumbsup:

@Merilitos,

If push comes to shove I may jump in and help with modeling & skinning, at this time however I have an overcharged shedule as is and I dont want to promisse and not be able to deliver.

[meliritos]

dont worry i will start modeling myself and if i need help i will ask for it. Right now iv got to finish some aztec models for rex BUT next week ill start modeling and skinning. Maybe if we post the first screenshots some will be interested.

[meliritos]

Im working the list for the Ottoman empire, trying to make it as historcally accurate and as player friendly as possible. But we need the lists for the Serbs and the Bulgars. Is there anyone who can help? I know the Bulgars had the haiduks, but thats all i know

[Arbaces]

You rock man!! Keep it up!!

I see you already set a fellow Romanian's feelings on fire LOL :) ,

judging that you're on RTW... if you need any help with ... mapping, coding, units, unit names...whatever... just drop me a PM I might be able to help you...

Best of luck,
Arbaces.

[meliritos]

You rock man!! Keep it up!!

I see you already set a fellow Romanian's feelings on fire LOL :) ,

judging that you're on RTW... if you need any help with ... mapping, coding, units, unit names...whatever... just drop me a PM I might be able to help you...

Best of luck,
Arbaces.

thanks we will use all the help we can get. Ill start modeling this weekend, so you will have sth to script about. We will settle the final form of the mod this week and then rex can contact you to tell you what we need and you can start some sckripting

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Here is JPG version of the map...the original is in tga format.

Is it good enough ?

https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2758/hartagreciawk3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Off course, it can be resized if needed.
Unfortunately, i do not have (YET) the slightest idea how to insert it in the game...

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

COuld be good loading scenes !
From Eugene Delacroix, Masacre on the Island of CHios.
Could be good idea to use paintings ~;) Plenty of them, and also they make a good imersion into the atmosphere of the era.

https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5313/delacroixmassakervonchivu4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[meliritos]

rex man youve read my mind. We will use paintings and old lithographies for the loading screens. Rex tommorow ill send you the protraits for the greek and ottoman faction, so as to find sth relevant for the wallachians.
The map looks fine, only one point but it doesnt matter so much if you leave it unchanged. In thessaloniki area, at chalkidiki you made one ~foot~ look like an island. All three ~foots~ of the chalkidiki peninsula are attached to the land. Arbaces my friend will you script for us?

[Arbaces]

If you wish to include Moldova too (I would), a good idea would be to rotate the map about 45 degrees so that it won't intersect with any Austro-Hungarian region, thus not making it's inclusion necessary.

Yes melritos, I will join your squad and do whatever I can, with as much time as I can get, to help your LoD Mod!

Arbaces

[Suraknar]

Im working the list for the Ottoman empire, trying to make it as historcally accurate and as player friendly as possible. But we need the lists for the Serbs and the Bulgars. Is there anyone who can help? I know the Bulgars had the haiduks, but thats all i know

I am on it :)

Now I found something interesting while researching units, that can possibly be a Local Mercenary or even a Common Unit amongst the rebelling factions, with appropriat faction colors etc.

Read on :)


Aromanians (also called: Arumanians or Macedo-Romanians; in Aromanian they call themselves Arumâni, Armâni, Rămăni, Rumâni or Aromâni) are a people living throughout the southern Balkans, especially in northern Greece, Albania, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria, and as an emigrant community in Romania (Dobruja). They are the second most populous group of Vlachs, behind modern-day Romanians.

They speak the Aromanian language, a Romance language related to Romanian, sometimes classified as a dialect of it. Due to the common language foundations, dating from the times of Latin language, historians believe that the language link with Romanian was interrupted between the 7th and 9th century, after the most important features of the Proto-Romanian language were formed.

There are many theories regarding the origins of the Aromanians. In Greece, they are believed to be descending from a local Greek population that was Latinised immediately following the Roman conquest of Greece, or later, during the first centuries of the Byzantine Empire when Latin continued to be the official language. On the contrary, in Romania they are considered to be the descendants of Latinised Dacian settlers who emigrated to the south.

In total, the main theories regarding the origins of Aromanians describe them as:

* Descendants of ancient Thracians and/or Illyrians

or

* The descendants of Roman colonizers and soldiers, who would receive agricultural lands as payments for their services.

or

* Latinized Greeks

It is however clear that until the 7th - 9th century, Romanians and Aromanians spoke the same eastern variant of Vulgar Latin, often known as Proto-Romanian.

In the Middle Ages, Aromanians created semi-autonomous states on the territory of modern Greece, such as Great Wallachia or Small Wallachia.

Aromanians played an important role in the independence wars of various Balkan countries, against the Ottoman Empire.

Full Articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Aromanians

And a nice photo for the modeling :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/Vlach_Shepherd.png

Continuing research...

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Hmm, i will corect that area ~:)
Also, Arbaces can help us with the map.

Here i found today some images dating from that period:

SOUTHERN VLAH

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1339/pozaib6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

BALKAN TROOP IREGULARS FROM THE OTTOMAN ARMY (from an earlyer period,
altough, i guess)

From left to right, the first 2 are Albanians, the one from the background is Bosnian and the one with the long cap is Vlach.

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3596/dacia03ats8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

ETERIA FIGHTING IN BUCHAREST AGAINS THE OTTOMANS

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5463/eteriabucharest1821he7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Suraknar]

Oki, this is not going to be very easy, althought, it will be easyer to model.

have spent several hours since my last post looking for documentation on Units of the period for Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania.

I have found extensive Units for Serbia (see bellow for pics)

The Bulgarian units look much like the Southern Vlachs and Clephts of Greece, the "Fustanela" is common to all, what differs is various decorations on the belts and the Footwear. While Greec use the "Tsarouhi", the Bulgars and Vlachs tend to use Boots.

Rex! That second Picture there with the Vlach-Moldavian is Excelent!! :)

Northern Wallachian-Moldavian have a mixture of influences comming from Hungarian Uniforms and Southern Wallachian, aswell as a bit of Russian at times.

Also Bulgarians tend to shift from 1876 onwards towards a more Russian(Slavic) Uniform design.

Now Some Serbian Pictures:

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/becar.jpeg
Becar, 1806-08

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/offizier.jpeg
Serbian Officer 1808

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/regular.jpeg
Infantry Regular 1909

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/regular_winter.jpeg
Infantry Regular 1909(winter uniform)

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/oficir_regulasa.jpeg
Infantry Officer1909

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/regular_summer.jpeg
Infantry Regular 1909 (Summer Uniform)

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/serves_garde.jpeg
Serbian Guard 1909

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/Kapetan_Ilija.jpeg
Captain Ilija Novokresceni, 1809 <---Note names for Serbian Faction

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/srpski_frajkor.jpeg
Serbian Frey-Bataillon (Srpski frajkor), 1813

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/pozarevac.jpeg
Sergeant and soldier in Pozarevac, Serbia, 1829

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/kozak_milos.jpeg
Kozak of Prince Milos, 1835

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/present/pictures/husar_1837.jpeg
Cavalry (husar), 1837

I thought to stop at 1937, this gives a good basis of Serbian units, for starters and more advanced.

[Filibustería]

there should be a great difference (i think, im dont know about serbia) between 1823 units and 1909 units

[Suraknar]

Yes well there is.

The Serbian is a bit mixed, but reading though history it is because they did not have an all across the board type of uniform, this is very specific to region and battalions.

While some batallions had a more "western" look, others had a more Local or Eastern look.

The dates and all come from a nice Document that I found here:

http://oea.serbian-church.net/culture/history/Serbian_Military_Uniforms/#one

The source seems pretty solid.

The problem we are going to have is make some choices, because, these all were revolting nations under the Ottoman Empire, they did NOT have established armies prior to revolting so starting them with Full blown Uniformed Units is not accurate. And some of the factions actually got full independence and started making their own armies and uniforms past 1850.

So in the begining most traditional units have to be used that will most probably will look lots alike to one another (Can be same model with variations on textures), later on we can introduce more "Regular" units of each faction either as part of the evolution of buildings and settlements and also with hidden resources and events.

So I am continuing research to now include Civilian custumes and dresses, as the rebelling units can be based on that.

More to come soon.

[meliritos]

Yes well there is.

The problem we are going to have is make some choices, because, these all were revolting nations under the Ottoman Empire, they did NOT have established armies prior to revolting so starting them with Full blown Uniformed Units is not accurate. And some of the factions actually got full independence and started making their own armies and uniforms past 1850.

So in the begining most traditional units have to be used that will most probably will look lots alike to one another (Can be same model with variations on textures), later on we can introduce more "Regular" units of each faction either as part of the evolution of buildings and settlements and also with hidden resources and events.

So I am continuing research to now include Civilian custumes and dresses, as the rebelling units can be based on that.

More to come soon.

Yes i figured it as such.We can start with irregular soldiers and take it up to 1900 with uniforms. And the uniform change will be the result of evolved buildings. But not much later than 1900 please because that will spoil the feeling of the game. I will search for greek soldiers from 1800 to 1900. Suraknar you do that for the serbs and the bulgars. In that case though we can change ali pasha for hungary maybe? Waiting feedback on this. Oh and arbaces promised to help with scripting and knows how to model.

By the way if we go through with this plan we will need a whole bunch of units. I can model but we will need GOOD (and i mean really good) skinners.

[meliritos]

oh and another thing. I asked the moderators to make this mod a sticky mod along with other developing mods. Some other mods have gone stickied and they havent advanced much yet. Why our mod should not its own a thread? (just wondering)

[Suraknar]

oh and another thing. I asked the moderators to make this mod a sticky mod along with other developing mods. Some other mods have gone stickied and they havent advanced much yet. Why our mod should not its own a thread? (just wondering)


Maybe mistake, oversight...or maybe they know something that we dont?

In any case, would be nice to know :)

BTW, who is working on the in game map? I could take a crack at it if none else is.

[Arbaces]

Nice stuff Suraknar!! After all, who handles the mapping..? A showcase of the team would be great so we know who we work with, a forum... You know better what you have in mind, the first week looks to have begun good.

Arbaces.

[meliritos]

Nice stuff Suraknar!! After all, who handles the mapping..? A showcase of the team would be great so we know who we work with, a forum... You know better what you have in mind, the first week looks to have begun good.

Arbaces.

rex has made a map, but he doesnt know how to implement it. Can you help him with that?

ok I will do the modeling
rex has started the map
suraknar has searched for references
arbaces with the scripting

we need skinners
i can try the unit cards, the factions symbols, the loading screens (as to the artistc aspect, someone has to implement them in the game)

thats the plan but you can help to whatever you like. What can you help in?

[Arbaces]

you mean you can model but you can't handle skinning or you just need some extras to create alternate versions and such.

here is my proposal of cartography which I sent to rex, in this way Moldova can also be included, nothing unrealistic as north is still north just a little bit of deforming which could be rather a cool feature of the map... RTR defroms map, I deform map , in the vanilla the map was deformed so it will be ok if we adapt it a little too.
https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3851/untitled1mm8.png

a nice beginning would be in my view that, me and Rex handle the map, and overall gameplay (coding, scripting whatever you like to call it), while you handle the units, models and I hope skinning too, otherwise I will help you with it as well. But it's going to take a few years, I hope you are aware of this, the most important thing at the beginning is to create the project properly:

Is not just about unit cards, faction symbols, loading screens, it's about general graphics, which may include advertising banners , logo and character portraits. It's not about scripting is about general gameplay which includes the way the map is done , the new thing which the mod would definately need to bring, the gunpowder effects, new traits, etc. Hope this helps.


Arbaces

[meliritos]

i know all that. we will need somebody to make new animations,and all that you have underlined. I can handle modelling, but i shuck at photoshop so we will need some people to do the skinning job. I can help at that. surely we need more people...

[meliritos]

but as far as modelling is concerned i can handle (i believe) almost anything

[meliritos]

you and rex can handle the gameplay together but always in communication with suraknar and me. It would be nice if we had in the team someone who can play around with photoshop (but reaaaally play around). Any ideas?

[Suraknar]

I can play around with Photoshop :)

So I will help you make he skinns, if time permits and need arises also modeling & animations, but for now lets start with photoshop :)

[meliritos]

I can play around with Photoshop :)

So I will help you make he skinns, if time permits and need arises also modeling & animations, but for now lets start with photoshop :)

aaaalright. Arbaces will prepare us a forum, as it seems we cant have one here, by monday i believe we will have it. As to music is concerned, because we had a discussion with rex, he and i will find some music and you can also do that, and later check what will be best and decide. I say folk music, rex wants classical. search some music over the weekend if you like and we'll talk about that next week

[Suraknar]

aaaalright. Arbaces will prepare us a forum, as it seems we cant have one here, by monday i believe we will have it. As to music is concerned, because we had a discussion with rex, he and i will find some music and you can also do that, and later check what will be best and decide. I say folk music, rex wants classical. search some music over the weekend if you like and we'll talk about that next week

Well, thus far we are gathering info and discussing, I am sure that when actual work on this mod, models units will start comming, that we will then reach a point where we could be awarded a sub-forum, think about it, if the moderators of this forum made sub-forums for everyone that just announced a mod, there would be hundresds of sub-forums :P

[meliritos]

Well, thus far we are gathering info and discussing, I am sure that when actual work on this mod, models units will start comming, that we will then reach a point where we could be awarded a sub-forum, think about it, if the moderators of this forum made sub-forums for everyone that just announced a mod, there would be hundresds of sub-forums :P

i guess you are right. Sorry moderators. I could start modeling but i need the references. I have found some for the ottoman empire but they stop at the late 16th century.

[Filibustería]

I have found some for the ottoman empire but they stop at the late 16th century.

What about the ones I sent you?

They ARE 1820's

[meliritos]

Fili sorry the last few days have been a mess. Where exactly did you send them?

[Filibustería]

I PMed them to you

[meliritos]

are you sure man because i havent received anything. Can you PM them again?

[Filibustería]

what i meant was that long ago i sent you a pm with a link to a web page where a guy had designed an 1820's ottoman army for a tabletop wargame. Don't you remember?

anyway, here are they again:

http://www.theonetree-miniatures.co.uk/index.html

[meliritos]

ah yes i remember that sorry. But the think is that these references should be suplementary, not the ones i will have to rely on because the size of the photos was too small .

[Filibustería]

but its the unit list not the unit look what you need right now.

[meliritos]

but its the unit list not the unit look what you need right now.

i propably need them both. Anyway, thanks man

[Filibustería]

No problem. Anyway, ive always been a fan of the ottoman empire and the napoleonic era.

[meliritos]

Then maybe you can do some research for us?

[Filibustería]

I can try. What do you need?

[meliritos]

I can try. What do you need?

Everything. A nice job, a beatiful wife, a hot mistress, three children, money (lots of it) and of course world peace. But for now i will settle with reference for the Ottomans, ok?

[Suraknar]

LOL,

I shall go at it as well then :) Lets combine efforts.

[Filibustería]

Here's a pair of links that should be useful:


http://www.principlesofwar.com/scenarios/19thc/balkans/Ottoman%20Army.htm

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/10/waa/ht10waa.htm

[meliritos]

Ok I contacted Arbaces to organise some things for our mod's forum. Whoever wants to join the mod he or she can contact Arbaces to learn how to sign in to our forum. Lets get this show on the road...

[asteris_]

Guys I am Greek And I would be very happy if I see and play this mod.

Good Luck Guys
If you want any historical information about Greek leaders, cities etc. Just PM me and ask anything ;)

[meliritos]

thank you. I am thinking of doing this thing for the empires game, we will see. I have contacted other members of the rtw community as well, time will tell

[meliritos]

ok guys i revive this thread, simply because after talking with Aradan we decided its worth designing a game for empire TW engine. Of course we will be waiting for the game to be out in the shops and then there will be work to make it moddable, but in the mean time we can do some research for the game so as to have everything ready and then get down to it.
The main thing is that we have to decide between the 1821 mod, which will be about the wars of the balkan people for independence from the ottoman empire, or a 1st Balkan war mod.The rest will come as we go.
We can start the discussion here...

[Ramashan]

I know nothing of the time period, but when you guys are ready to begin the actual mod, you know my skills Mel, I offer help in what ever aspect you may need.