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econ21
03-12-2007, 23:21
[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

The Diet has two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by Kaiser or, in his absence, by the Prinz.

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 1.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy Hamburg.

where 1.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the first session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

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Summary of Edicts proposed in 8th Session of Diet (current up to post #532)

NB: Deadline for proposing and seconding votes is 2pm UK time Thursday.

Edict 8.1: The Milanese will be offered peace and trade rights with at most 5,000 florins as an incentive. If they refuse, they are to be destroyed expeditiously by taking Corsica and Sardinia, unless we are delayed from doing so by a Papal Bull. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will.
Proposed: Otto von Kassel
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Gerhard Steffen

Edict 8.2: The Chancellor must end the alliance with the Moors. The Chancellor may not seek an alliance with any Muslim nation for any reason.
Proposed:: Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Count of Zagreb 3rd Elector, Ulrich Hümmel

Edict 8.3: As soon as possible a second Crusade to the Holy Lands should be called by Emperor Henry. The target would depend on the current situation but should be one of the places mentioned in the Emperors draft for the Kingdom of Outremere.
At least one Franconian and Austrian general should participate so that each House will be represented in this new Kingdom.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Hans, Otto Kassel

Edict. 8.4 Franconia is allowed to capture the city of Krakow.Unless Pope directs and ultimatum for the Reich for the cessation of hostilities with Poland.
Proposed: Count Jonas Von Mahren
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Günther von Kastilien

Edict 8.5: The Swabian House army will be allowed to take one French settlement after the Pope has rescinded his threat of excommunication. However, should the French invade Swabia with an army greater than 1000 able bodied men or an army lead by a respected commander, the Swabian army shall destroy said army and then counterinvade French territories
Proposed: Fredrich Scherer
Seconded: Prinz Von Salza, Duke Leopold

Edict 8.6 During the next Chancellors term a group of merchants and priests shall be dispatched to at least one of the following places, preferrably both:
- The far reaches south of the great Saharan desert.
- The Nile upward in the south of Egypt.
A group should consist of at least three merchants and priests each.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded:Count of Venice, Count of Zagreb

Edict 8.7 The Chancellor shall try to find peace with the Venetians as soon as possible. A moderate amount of florins may be used to persuade them. Should the Venetians decline, subsequent raids towards their holdings in Durazzo and Thessalonica, resulting in possible razing or extermination of those cities, shall teach them the error of their ways.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded:Count of Venice, Count of Zagreb

Charter Amendment 8.1
Clause 1:
Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.
Clause 2:
Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Count of Zagreb 3rd Elector; Hans

Charter Amendment 8.2:The lands in the Levant shall be assigned by the Council of Crusaders. The King of the Outremer shall also be elected by the Crusaders. The Diet shall still discuss matters concerning the Holy Land, but the Council of Crusaders can put forward more than the maximum number of edicts, providing they concern the Holy Land.
Proposed: Ulrich Hümmel

Charter Amendment 8.3: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.
Proposed: Duke Otto
Seconded: Maximillan Mandorf, Hans


*******************************************************

Prinz Henry: Electors, may I be the first to congratulate him Maximillan Mandorf on his election as our new Chancellor. Having overseen the House of Franconia, he must now also act as Steward to the entire Empire, beset as it by assaults by Venice, Polan, Milan and - we expect imminently - France.

TinCow
03-12-2007, 23:40
Electors, I thank you for the trust you have placed in me. I shall begin work immediately.

I urge all Counts to post build queues for their settlements as soon as possible.

TevashSzat
03-13-2007, 04:18
I hope that you may have a prosperous and succesful reign Maximillion

econ21
03-13-2007, 10:19
Prinz Henry: I am alarmed at the Chancellor's report that no new construction is possible. If we prioritise recruitment of troops before buildings, we are putting the horse before the cart. Investing wisely in buildings will provide the surplus that will allow us to support a larger army. If we recruit the larger army first, we will never attain the surplus that will allow us to upgrade our buildings.

I am particularly concerned about upgrading Staufen to a fortress. Is that one of the new constructions that is not possible or is it exempt because Sigismund already queued it? I believe the upgrade to a fortress is a particularly significant one for all Household armies, as it gives us access to dismounted feudal knights and pavisse crossbowmen. Dismounted knights will be a great advantage in siege situations (whether defending or attacking), and will also be useful in countering enemy spears in field battles. Pavisses will give us missile superiority over many of our foes. Cutting back on the upgrade to a fortress in order to buy a few more armoured spearmen would be a false economy.

Ignoramus
03-13-2007, 11:17
Count Sigismund der Furchtlose gets to his feet.

I second what Prinz Henry says. It is madness for us not to upgrade Staufen to a fortress. How can we hope to fight the French on level terms if we do not even have one fortress, while they have two! The Reich boasts the best spearmen in Europe, yet even a spear is useless against a sword. Our blacksmiths are so stretched that they can only provide swords for our Ritters. I urge the Chancellor to cease this madness!

Count Sigismund resumes his seat.

FactionHeir
03-13-2007, 11:41
The prince speaks wise words.
What is the point of recruiting a household army made of peasants and lowly spearmen rather than improving our economy and ability to produce better troops to fight our wars?
While we are recruiting troops, we also need to pay and feed them for as long as they serve us, straining our ability to build at the same time.

I suggest that buildings go first and training last - when we actually need the additional troops.
While household armies are a priority, a better trained one is of even higher priority.

Kagemusha
03-13-2007, 11:58
Duke Of Franconia speaks up:

"I will speak shortly,since i must leave to Magdeburg soon. While i agree with Prinz Henry,that Swabia needs the fortress to create troops of high quality. The thing is that we are in transitional phase. While we have enough men both in South and West currently.East and North needs the manpower badly. Once we have the men,we will start gaining revenue from the spoils of war. Chancellors job is to stand between individual houses and balance the revenue of gold. But isnt it more important for Austria and Franconia to have forces that can beat their enemies, rather then,how good units others can build later. Im sure the hold in building projects is just temporary anyway. Now i must leave the Diet,since my counts are starting to engage the enemy and i should be with our main army."

Dietrich Von Saxony leaves the Diet.

TinCow
03-13-2007, 12:14
*One of the Chancellor's scribes clears his throat.*

Surely the Duke of Swabia is aware that Chancellor der Stolze made the investment for the fortress in Staufen during his own term. Accordingly, construction will begin on that structure this year, despite the lack of other expenditures on buildings. Chancellor Mandorf has not even been able to find sufficient funds to repair the wall of Bologna, one of Bavaria's own cities, yet he still let Chancellor der Stolze's construction orders at Staufen stand out of respect for his office. Hopefully the Duke of Swabia has as much concern for the security of Franconia and Austria as he does for the improvement of his own lands.

The Chancellor would also like me to inform you that priority constructions will resume next year.

econ21
03-13-2007, 12:56
Prinz Henry: Scribe, as should be clear by my earlier query, your Prinz is aware that Sigismund had already authorised the fortress upgrade for Staufen. However, Sigismund had not made the investment - no money had been spent. That is why I asked whether Sigismund's decision meant Staufen was exempt from the Chancellor's moratorium on buildings. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear Staufen is exempt and that the Chancellor has authorised the necessary expenditure for its upgrade.

As to your arch remark about my concerns, my concerns are not a matter for scribes. Especially ones who cannot see that a fortress in Staufen will contribute to the security of Franconia and Austria. The troops a fortress at Staufen could produce are not earmarked for any one House and we have no other fortresses capable of producing them at present.

TinCow
03-13-2007, 13:49
*Maximillian Mandorf enters, fresh from bringing Christian justice to lowly highwaymen. He glares at his scribe and gestures towards the door. The man sheepishly slips out.*

Perhaps I should give that man a history lesson on what happens to insolent scribes in places such as this.

*Mandorf sighs.*

My Prince, I understand the theory of how investments in future construction work, but you must also understand reality. The reality is that when I assumed my post, the construction of the fortress had already begun and the appropriate monies had already been deducted from the Imperial treasury. As my scribe stated, I have respected that situation and let the orders stand. You should be most grateful for this, for I most certainly would not have otherwise given priority to construction of that facility at this time.

You accuse me of putting the cart before the horse, yet you are doing the same, my Lord. We have three castles capable of producing decent, professional soldiers. They are certainly not of a quality to make the world shake with fear, but they will perform admirably for the time being. What we need more than anything is not soldiers or even the facilities to produce more soldiers. What we need is money.

Accordingly, it is my full intention to give favor to financial structures and only allow for military construction when there is extra money to spare or when it is essential for the security of the Reich. I understand you will likely vehemently disagree with this assessment, but I believe it to be correct and under the current circumstances, it is my decision to make.

During my campaign for Chancellor, I pledged one thing above all others: giving the Houses the means with which to defend themselves. Austria and Franconia are horrendously vulnerable to attack and their defense cannot wait for armored knights to be produced from Staufen a decade from now. They must be immediately given the forces they need to protect their lands. Accordingly, my priorities are as follows:

First, to immediately increase the professional military strength of Austria and Franconia. Second, to repair the walls of Bologna and invest in new financial structures. Third, to reorganize the defense of cities so that they are garrisoned by militia which do not require pay out of the Imperial treasury. Fourth, to improve the military infrastructure of the Reich.

No doubt there will be much future disagreement with my policies...

*Mandorf's face grows cold and he stares straight at the Prince.*

...but I do not care for petty squabbling over every minutia of my policies. I will do what I believe is right for the betterment of a Christian Reich! That does not include giving favor to any one House or to any one Elector. If you wished for a Chancellor who would pour the Imperial treasury into Staufen, then perhaps you should have run for the office yourself.

econ21
03-13-2007, 14:22
Prinz Henry: I would ask to you to remember, Chancellor, that I am a Prince. I query, I express concern: I do not "squabble".

There is much in your plans that I agree with - constructing financial buildings and using militia as city garrisons, for example. It was partly because I had confidence in your ability to prudently manage the creation of Household Armies that I was happy to support your election as Chancellor. But I would still argue for giving primacy to upgrading our castles above all other investments.

It is not a matter of wishing to pour the Imperial treasury into Staufen. Yes, upgrading our castles will be expensive and yes it will consume a lot of the Imperial treasury. But nonetheless it should be prioritised. I repeat: investment in upgrading Staufen is of no particular benefit or concern to Swabians compared to other Germans. A fortress and the troops it can generate are Imperial assets. I would argue for prioritising the construction of a fortress whether it were Innsbruck or Hamburg that stood ready to upgade.

Surely, it is not "minutia" whether we have infantry capable of matching the swordsmen of Denmark or the crossbowmen of Italy? You would have our knights stand idly by on horseback for lack of training while mere spearmen clamber over our enemies' walls? You would have our archers stand in the open while our enemies take cover behind large pavisses? If you do not regard these matters as a priority, then perhaps I shall have to rethink my natural aversion to "squabbling".

FactionHeir
03-13-2007, 14:38
Chancellor, I suggest that you only raise militia to the extent they can be supported at cost to the city alone. Any militia above that limit would be excessive and can be replaced by cheaper peasantry.

TinCow
03-13-2007, 14:58
*Mandorf nods in agreement.*

I completely agree with the Fifth Elector of Swabia. I must say that the question of the militias is most frustratingly complex. We will reap immediate financial benefits from having militias be supported by the towns themselves, but the cost of recruiting them must come from the Imperial treasury. Accordingly, the militia issue cannot be addressed this year, though hopefully next year I will be able to begin on it.

Furthermore, the towns cannot be left defenseless while the militia are recruited. In Austria in particular this means that the professional regiments stationed there cannot be removed or otherwise replaced until the Austrian Household Army is assembled. I would sincerely love to be able to simply replace all town garrisons with full complements of militia this very week. Unfortunately, it appears the actual process may take several years before it can be completed everywhere. I swear that it shall be completed as quickly as is possible without risking the security of any House. If the end result is tardy, then I will certainly accept the blame for the situation.

I will say that I have already ordered two regiments of unarmed peasants to be disbanded. Heavens only know where they came from, but they would not make any difference in a battle and were draining 200 florins per year from the treasury.

nazgul3
03-13-2007, 18:15
Bavarian Elector stands

We should definatly build our fortresses when they are presented and build economy to the cities who are lacking behind in money. With the bigger cities we should concentrate on public order and public health. Our castles are not ment to be making money they are there to advance our troops. The more advanced our troops are the easier it is for the Reich to overcome our enemies.

GeneralHankerchief
03-13-2007, 20:06
Kaiser Heinrich:

I must say that I completely agree with Prinz Henry (sotto voce: for once) about the lack of even one building in the queue being built. Back in my Chancellorship I found the funds to obey most queues and still double the Reich's size.

It seems as if your financial calculations about there being money left over to build after the House Armies have been created have already been proven incorrect, since apparently not even a 600 florin land clearance can be built.

ArchdukeEvan
03-13-2007, 20:18
it has not been mentioned yet i belive so let us think of this to...

stands to speak

if we are going to argue over money should we not take into accont the yearly cost of these troops?

the knights we train will be expensive... very expensive... and dispersing peasents... even 200 of them... will not pay for the formation of Armored Sword Regiments... and if we have to support the horses as well... then it is almost twice as expensive... also if we upgrade Staufen then knights can only be used in the area closest to there... because currently there will be no other places to train and retrian them...

so i come to theis... i am not agianst upgrading the castle to a fortress... but can we really get enough use out of these few knights we train there when 2 groups of Spears can fight the same... instead of relying on brute-force we can use tactics... as we have done before... to defeat the enemy

that is all

sits

TinCow
03-13-2007, 20:28
Gentlemen, please, this is not a long-term crisis by any means. The shortage of monies is likely to be confined to this year alone. Next year will see increased profits across the board and construction is expected to resume in many settlements even after further recruitments have been made. The siege of Florence will surely be broken by the Kaiser next year, bringing still more monies into our coffers, and I fully expect the castle at Magdeburg and the city of Venice to fall to our forces in the near future. In short, Electors, there is not a crisis in the Treasury. We have fallen short this year due to poor harvests and other factors such as the extremely high cost of the fortress at Staufen.

We are more than capable of sustaining the Household Armies, the Imperial Armies, and the building programs of most settlements around the Reich. I have not even completed my first year as Chancellor yet and you are already predicting doom and gloom, despite the fact that the situation has not changed one bit from when we had the election and I am doing exactly what I said I would during my campaign.

My good Electors, you simply must give it some time to work. I promise that you will see positive results in a very short period of time. Surely one single year without new construtions, other than the fortress at Staufen, will not cause the downfall of our Empire.

ArchdukeEvan
03-13-2007, 20:46
stands

Honored Chanceler


Surely one single year without new construtions, other than the fortress at Staufen, will not cause the downfall of our Empire.

well i never said it would... but i will trust that your confidance is well founded in your reports?... because once we have lost the money... it maybe awhile before we gain it back... and though the upgrading of the fortress is important... it can not help the entire reich... knights trained there arent in line to head for Poland... but extra cash can...

sits agian

TevashSzat
03-13-2007, 23:43
Fouth Elector of Swabia stands

People, you must realize that military infrastructure is not something you can raise up in a day. It will take many years for the fortress to be built as well as suitable training grounds for our troops. Should we leave our western border with weak infrastructure, should France attack, we will have to spend many years fighting as a disadvantage as we try to build the infrastructure that could have been built years ago.

TevashSzat
03-14-2007, 02:45
Fourth Elector of Swabia rushes in

The most excellent Maximillion has gravenly informed us that the French have attacked. Our situation is most pitiful with large French armies besiegeing our pathetically defended cities. Now everyone must agreee that it is of upmost importance to focus on improving the military condition of our western front seeing as how our eastern front against the Polish is more or less stable with no major defeats or losses anytime really soon; the Italian situation is shaky with the upcoming large battle against the Milanese, but we most now divert more funds and forces against the treacherous French immedietely

Stuperman
03-14-2007, 03:11
*the 6th elector of Bavaria remains sitting, but speaks loud enough for everyone to hear, dripping with sarcasim he says*

hhhmmm....war with the French, pitty we wasted all that money on troops.

I'd much prefer to be cowering behind some newly constructed walls.

*a wry smile creeps over his face as he takes anothr drink of his beer*

GeneralHankerchief
03-14-2007, 03:50
Kaiser Heinrich:

Sigismund has a large army that should be able to deal with the French, for as we all know Germans are much better fighters.

With any luck the remnants of the large Milanese army I have just defeated will make its way to Marseille and siege it - three way war. Ah well, I suppose there's no harm in praying.

Warluster
03-14-2007, 08:13
Jobst von Salza stands

i knew the French would attack! I knew it!

Where did they attack!? Where did they attck!? I hope it isn't Dijon, or I will string them!

I volunteer to lead a attack against the Frecnh!

Jobst von Salza sits, fretting they may be attacking his precious Castyle of Dijon

Ignoramus
03-14-2007, 09:29
A page hands Sigismund der Furchtlose a a scroll. After briefly glancing at its contents, Sigismund smiled as he rose.

"Mein Chancellor, it appears that we are currently only making a paltry 500 florins every two years(one turn). Currently, we only have 72 florins. Please tell me how we are to build anything in this bankrupt Reich? We are on the brink of economic collapse, and we are not being wise."

I am sure that mein fellow Swabians would agree."

Sigismund der Furchtlose glances at the Swabian electors as he resumes his seat.

Stuperman
03-14-2007, 10:06
*the 6th elector of Bavaira stands*

The honourable Sigismund der Furchtlose has a point, perhaps our retaliation towards the French should focous on Marseille, the florins streaming in from such a large trading center would surely help aleviate some of the financial burden Chancellor Maximillian Mandorf's bold plan has caused in the short term.

Warluster
03-14-2007, 10:25
Jobst von Salza stands again, and nods towards Sigismund der Furchtlose

yes,yes,yes.

I agree there Sigismund, and the 6th Elector of Bavaria's Plan seems fine, but of course comes the way of getting the money to attack and stuff.

So why don't we pluch a few trade Rights? That we surely help us, if we send off about 5 diplomats world wide, not only can we ask for trade rights, we can gain allies, more soldiers, promises and spread our influence?

Ituralde
03-14-2007, 10:59
Duke Leopold had withdrawn from the Diet after the Election and had just recently returned to the chambers. His departure for Vienna was approaching but he wanted to attend the Diet before he left.


My fellow Electors!

What are these words of nit-picking and squabbling I'm hearing in this Assembly?
The House of Swabia seems to be particulary fussed by the new Chancellor's actions. You have supported him with all your votes, so maybe it's time you stuck up and actually support your choice, not only by vote, but also by your actions within this body? Not more than one year has passed and already the heart of the Reich has been cleansed of rebels and two major victories were won against our foes and still you find the time to complain? May I remind you that not one single building has been constructed in Vienna during the last Chancellors half-term? I don't even want to begin speaking about the military support I recieved from the rest of the Reich or our Chancellor. Meager Militia was all I had to deal with the Milanese threat.

Finally Chancellor Mandorf is undertaking actions to remedy this situation, so that finally our Eastern borders can have the same attention, Northern Italy and the western border had in recent time. All you can do is complain about the state of your oh so mighty castle, which is indeed upgraded to a fortress as we speak. Your Ducal Army under Sigismund command is ready to take your orders, so I understand why you don't see any need for additional troops. Other Houses have to make do with Militia though and for them recruitment is a top priority and I'm glad Chancellor Mandorf thinks along the same lines.
What good is a fortress if we don't have the men to properly defend it? The Reich needs soldiers, professional soldiers! This will indeed cause a short-term lack of florins but it is necessary. The attacks we had during the last Chancellors term have shown us how vunerable we are. We need to be ready to answer every threat that our enemies could pose toward us! We can only do this with soldiers, not with buildings or Florins. I fully support
Mandorf in his recent decisions and believe that he does the best job possible at this moment!

I would also like to remind anyone here who suggests offensive actions against the French that this would directly violate Edict 5.12, which calls for a defensive stance towards our foolish French neighbours.

The Duke returns to his seat.

TinCow
03-14-2007, 12:16
*Mandorf shakes his head angrily.*

500 florins? Count der Stolze, I suggest you have some firm words with your scribes. Next year the Reich Treasury will receive nearly 8,500 florins to fund future expenditures. That is more than we received this year, and need I remind you this year's profits included a signficant gift from the Russians? The Reich is becoming profitable, it is not going bankrupt.

Ignoramus
03-14-2007, 12:30
Sigismund der Furchtlose smiles as he rises to reply.

Mein dear Mandorf, it is true that the Reich will receive nearly 8,500 florins next year. Yet, 8,000 of those are required for the payment of our soldiers, our clergy, and our fleets. We can not construct much with 500 florins.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

TinCow
03-14-2007, 13:24
Again, I must state that you are misinformed Count der Stolze. I understand that the wording of the standard treasury report can be confusing, but the entry titled "profit" does not reflect where the treasury will stand next year. I assure you, at the beginning of the year we will have approximately 8,500 florins to spend on the various needs of the Reich. The "profit" line merely indicates how much more we will be receiving next year than we did at the beginning of this year. We will be making 500 florins more next year than this year, for a total income of approximately 8,500 florins.

Kagemusha
03-14-2007, 15:31
Franconian messenger enters the Diet,carrying a letter from Duke of Franconia. Messenger reads:

"Greetings from the Polish front Mein Herren!
I would like to inform the Diet,that affairs here in North are developing well. Our forces have opened supply routes behind the Ducal army,thanks to Count Von Kastillien. Also messengers are coming both from North and South telling that our reinforcements are marching towards the Ducal army. In this situation, i would like to give my heartfull thanks to Chancellor Mandorf,who has done excellent job, doing what he promised. Im sure that soon Magdeburg will be ours.

Duke of Franconia

Dietrich Von Saxony"

nazgul3
03-14-2007, 19:12
5th elector of bavaria stands firmly

Men my dear chancellor is correct. We will have the available funds to repel the French. However we must stop the squabling. I say this to all those who worry. Stop!. Create solutions and stop worrying about problems. Every country has problems. You think Scipio Africanus was worried when Hannibal stood at the door steps of Rome. Now there was a problem and we all know what happened to Carthage. We will receive our funds and put an end to the girly French. They are not like men of true Romans. God is on our side and the eagle flies high. We shall create our armies and sack their cities and then your worries about money will be gone. I have faith in mein chancellor. Don't you all? If not faith in the chancellor surely you have faith in Him that he will not let our empire fall.

Sits angered

ArchdukeEvan
03-14-2007, 21:35
Stands to talk

well... a war with France is well enough reason for every once of gold to be poured into House Swabia

with your new castle and all of the troops you wnat... you should be able to over-run France in about 6 years...

laughs sarcasticly as he sits

Warluster
03-14-2007, 22:13
Are you makign fun of the House of Swabia!!

We don't take that lightly...

Jobst von Salza laughs at memories

TinCow
03-15-2007, 00:17
*The sound of Church bells and wailing women fills the air. A messenger rushes in and whispers into the ear of an Elector near the back of the room. He gasps and his face goes white. An unspeakable tragedy has occurred.*

GeneralHankerchief
03-15-2007, 00:21
Kaiser Heinrich:

This Diet is to observe a short period of mourning for the terrible death of Sigismund der Stolze.

He was an honorable man, good Chancellor, and terrific fighter. He has done nothing but good for the House of Swabia and the Reich as a whole. I am honored to have called him an Elector and a friend. Certainly he would have not approved of his manner of death.

Of course his death must be avenged. I urge Chancellor Mandorf to refit my army immediately so that I may march to France and enact terrible retribution.

FactionHeir
03-15-2007, 00:25
What! Sigismund dead! How could this happen! I demand the assassin be caught and executed immediately!

ArchdukeEvan
03-15-2007, 01:09
he has died!? that is bad news indeed...

I must express my condolances to the House of Swabia for their loss...

mutters... scarely heard

bah... now we will have to give them everything they want... out of the pity in our hearts naturaly

GeneralHankerchief
03-15-2007, 01:26
Kaiser Heinrich

*addressing the 5th Elector of Austria*

What was that? My ears may not be what they used to be but I know a sotto voce when I see it. This is not the time to mutter about how one House is favored. Rest assured I would enact the same vengeance should Poland have done that to Leopold.

ArchdukeEvan
03-15-2007, 01:41
If Poland had killed Leopold then there would be NO Austria...

I truly do regret the death of Sigismund... he was a good man... always true to his word and very Noble with anyone he talked to and fought with...

and I have nothing agianst retalation... by all means... kill every one of the French Noblity... in fact i would support it!

but over all it seems we have emptyed the Treasury for this war with France... that is a problem that is uterly differant from my feelings for the great loss that the Reich has suffured

Stuperman
03-15-2007, 01:44
Those Dirty Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys!!

We must crush the French and burn Paris to the ground!

Sigismund der Stolze was a good man, and great leader the french must have been afraid of him after his Successes as Chancellor against the Millanese.

Would it not be prudent in light of recent events to arange for certian Frech Nobles to have tragic 'accidents'?

OverKnight
03-15-2007, 02:02
Otto enters the Diet after arriving from Italy. His expression is grave. In the intervening years since the last election he has aged visibly, his hair has begun to gray and he is unshaven from the long ride. He turns to the Swabian delegation and begins to speak.

I travelled here as quickly as I could after I heard the terrible news. I share your loss. Sigismund and I fought together many times. Without his aid, I would not have taken Bern. He held the Milanese back from there, and as Chancellor he crushed them! It is sickening that the Hammer of the Milanese has been laid low by a knife in the dark. Of all of us, he deserved that the least, as he set a shining example in Chivalry and valor! No doubt those Gallic swine heard of his prowess and Sigismund's intent to rout them, and they decided to strike from the shadows rather than face certain defeat in open battle.

I pray that Prinz Henry will inflict a terrible vengeance upon the cowardly French! I hope he bleeds them dry, so that when we do go on the offensive, their defeat will be swift and complete.

So it should be for all enemies of the Reich!

I must still attend to matters in Italy my lords. Gunther of Eichstadt, my old associate, will be my second in the Diet. I will relay messages through him, and he will keep me up to date on these proceedings.

Farewell.

Otto starts to exit the Diet, as he reaches the chamber doors, he turns, looks back once, and then strides out.

TevashSzat
03-15-2007, 02:16
We are all saddened by the loss of Sigismund der Stolze, but we must tell the French that although they use unchivalrous methods like assasinations, we shall still win the war!

econ21
03-15-2007, 02:22
Prinz Henry: Sigismund was like a son to me. I cannot express the shock and sadness I feel. He was to lead the House of Swabia after me; perhaps the Empire. His loss diminishes us all. The Empire has never had a more loyal or chivalrous servant. His legacy will be in North Italy, from where he expelled the Milanese and re-established our sovereignty, bringing us closer to Rome, our final destination.

Electors, I recall Maximillan once saying he feared no army, only the inquisitor. Perhaps with the changing circumstances, the inquisition has lost something of that dread with which some of us associated it. But now it seems we must add a new threat - a godless, dark threat: the assassin. I trust the Chancellor will know what to do to counter them: hire good men, spies, to find the devils and then hunt them down, either with our armies trapping them like vermin or with our own dark emissaries of death.

Northnovas
03-15-2007, 04:19
Electors!, The House of Austria is deeply sadden and shocked by the current events. Sigismund was a respected servant of the Reich and there will be a proper time of mourning and prayers. Though he would feel that his death was not noble because it was not on the battlefield he should have the honours of State Funeral for the sacrifices he has made for the Reich, the House of Swabia and the Kaiser.
May his soul rest in peace and his death be avenged by the men that are present here today.

The Third Elector of Austria leaves to assist in the planning......

Warluster
03-15-2007, 08:07
Jobst von Salza stands crying

Sigismund was a brother to me, we fought wars together, he never treated me unfairly, the loss is un bearable

Jobst von Salza words are unheard as his crying overpowers him, and he sit sdown, then wipes his face and stands
Fighting amongst the Houses
Sigh

From your words, Fifth Elector of Austria, I woudl think Your the Assasain, and in every way i shall treat you like that.

Because if this Diet wasn't so noble, you would not like the words I would be yellign at you, and blood would be spilt.

Sure, Austria was saved by Great Duke Leopold, a Greta Commander, but that is his glory, and he doesn't need his won Electors crowing on about nonsense,

Fifth Elector of Austria, what have you done for Austrai, the Duchys, The Reich? If you can name three things then I would clap hard, as there is no three things, other can you please be shut up! We don't need you rubbishing Swabia!

Kagemusha
03-15-2007, 09:52
A Franconian Messenger enters the Diet and starts reading a message:

"Mein Herr. While my heart is black from sorrow,after i heard about the death of Sigismund the Chivalrous. I have some good news on this black day. Magdeburg is now on the hands of the Reich! I would like to dedicate this victory on the memory of the Sigismund the Chivalrous and also give out my condolences to his family. Polish garrison have been beaten and the Ducal army of Franconia will soon continue its campaign to defeat the Polish by striking further to the Polish lands. Here is my short report:

https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8462/passault7pt3.jpg

Dietrich Von Saxony"

ArchdukeEvan
03-15-2007, 11:28
What is this!?

Pionting Fingers in the Diet!?

have you not listened to all that I have said!?

it seems that you havent... so next time use your ears before you use your mouth... I have nothing agianst Sigismund... as I have said plenty about before... and I will do so agian if I must...

do you know what I dont like!?... maybe you should go back and read what I have said from the Scribes books!

anyways... I have done the same service to the Reich that only an elector can! I have made edicts... I have voted... I have supported others in their plans... if you can name three other things an Elector can do than by all means... say something!

Ituralde
03-15-2007, 11:38
Duke Leopold enters the Diet dressed in a black mourning garb, streaks run down his cheeks where his tears have run freely as he heard of the departure of one of the great men of the Reich. Looking slightly dazed he enters the stand and starts to speak, sorrow filling his voice.

Sigismund the Chivalrous, Sigismund der Furchtlose, Sigismund der Unbesiegbare, he was known by many names. And every one of them shows us the respect he has earned amongst his friends and foes. This makes the fate all the harder to accept. The Reich has truly lost one of their greatest minds, most successful generals, and a shining beacon of Chivalry and generosity today! The enemy must have known that they could never stand up to Sigismund in battle or meet him face to face. That's why they had to rely on deceit and treachery to accomplish their goals. His death will be revenged! If I wasn't at the other end of the country I would lead the army personally onto Paris and have Phillip II flogged and beaten for this breach of Chivalry!

This is not the time to adress grievances between the Houses, old and new, every one here knows that I had my differences with Count Sigismund in the past, but I won't let that diminish my view of his accomplishments. I can forgive him and have always respected him as a man! I grieve with the House of Swabia, and I grieve with the Reich, and of course I grieve with you my brother Henry. You are not the only one who has lost a son this day. The Reich will never be what it once was.
I am sure that every single man assembled here has done his share to support the cause of our Reich and their Duchies and there's nobody here who does not feel the loss of Sigismund the Chivalrous! May his memory serve us as a reminder of what one man can accomplish!

A bleak look on his face Leopold returns to the stand of the House of Austria.

Kagemusha
03-15-2007, 12:01
Dietrich Von Saxony enters the Diet in full armour and takes the stand:

"Mein Prinz.My apologies for not being here in person on this moment of grief. I rode hear straight from the battle to show my respect on the departed. I understand while Sigismund was not your son out from Marriage,he was like your own to you. As last favour for him i ask your permision and urge the other Dukes to join me in this request. To show our respect towards Sigismund the Chivalrous.I would ask permission to carry his coffin with the other Dukes on his funeral, for the Dukes of the Reich to carry a brave hero of the Reich to his final resting place."

Dietrich bows down his head and walks among his Franconians.

econ21
03-15-2007, 12:49
Prinz Henry: I congratulate Duke Dietrich on the capture of Magdeburg - he continues to inspire us all with his indomitable spirit while campaigning in the cold north of our lands.

I am also inspired by Dietrich's proposal that we Dukes carry Sigismund's body at the funeral. My father is in charge of the funeral arrangements, but I am sure he will recognise this proposal as right and fitting.

TinCow
03-15-2007, 13:41
*Chancellor Mandorf enters the Diet, looking exhausted beyond all measure.*

I am but a Steward, but I would be most grateful if you would allow me to carry his body as well. Sigismund was the finest example of Christian nobility and morality I have ever known. His actions on the battlefield and off were always guided by a moral and ethical code that few of us can approach and none of us can equal. He was a great supporter of Bavaria and I personally considered him a good friend. I shall never forget his loss.

I also wish to say that the murderous fiend who committed this act shall not live long to enjoy whatever bounty he received. In one way or another, I shall ensure that he is sped into the next life so that Saint Peter may bar the gates and cast him down into the pit where he so surely belongs. I have heard rumors that the leaderless Swabian Household Army has been scouring the lands in search of this man. It is possible that they will trap and execute him themselves. If not, my friends in the Teutonic Order have told me that there are places in Frankfurt where Germans of a similar mind may be found. While I voted against the use of assassins in the previous Diet, there is surely no sin in using murderers to eliminate each other. They are all doomed anyway, so let us speed them to Hell even faster.

I must also urge all Electors to be wary of their surroundings. I will do all that I can to protect the Reich's leaders from our enemies, but there are limits to my abilities. Please, my friends, keep your bodyguards close and be suspicious of all outsiders. We must not allow another tragedy such as this to occur.

Ituralde
03-15-2007, 14:41
Leopold rises slowly

I would be more than honoured to carry Sigismund to his final resting place.

nazgul3
03-15-2007, 21:23
5th elector of Bavaria stands very saddened

It is truly a black day when the mighty fall. When the retaliation on France comes it shall be swift and destructive let no man in France forget what they are paying their lives for. Let "King" Philip watch in horror after what we do and make him fear the value of his decisions. This tyrant must be put to rest. May our hearts turn the anguish into a battle cry against France. Let all men know when they do battle they scream Sigismund in his rememberance.

Turns to pray
May God have mercy on his soul and welcome his spirit into the light of His passion and glory. May he find eternal bliss at the feet of God and find the happiness among all of the divine that live in the serenity of the Lord. I give thanks for the life that you gave Sigismund and granting me the opportunity to live in the time of such a great man. In this, I pray to the, Lord. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen

Bows and Leaves to commemorate the deciesed

Dutch_guy
03-15-2007, 22:34
A tired and dirty messenger enters the Diet, his garments indicate his allegiance to the House of Franconia

Noble lords of the Diet, I speak for von Kastillien in his absence!

How sorry he is to not be here in this time of pain and most of all sadness, but it could not be so any other way. As he is doing our work in the barren north, fighting the treacherous Poles, who undoubtedly had something to do with Sigismund's death! He may have been murdered in the west, but our Polish King's influence is, sadly, still quite large. No question this assassination of one of our dearest lords was high on their list, plus, such an unchivalrous way of dealing with problems fits the Polish bill exactly.

The messenger paused, taking a deep breath before continuing.

Günther truly regrets not being able to visit Sigismund's funeral, but my liege is currently enroute to Thorn. Late Sigismund would have it no other way, as he always put the Reich before himself!

The messenger stopped, and seated himself in the Franconian corner.

:balloon2:

GeneralHankerchief
03-16-2007, 03:44
Kaiser Heinrich:

Mandorf, as much as I admire the Russians for their total stupidity, I must warn you not to further violate edicts, as 5.29 ("The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.") has already been violated.

Carry on.

lilirishman1986
03-16-2007, 06:57
due to recent actions on the part of our enemies i must ask what countermeasures do we have in place within our territory to uncover opposing vandals such as assassins and spies. Should we not put forth our own network of spies in our cities to keep such rabble out?

Kagemusha
03-16-2007, 11:52
Franconian messenger enters the Diet:

"A small rebel army between Frankfurt and Magdeburg has been destroyed.199 rebel casulties and 9 Franconians.

Dietrich Von Saxony"

OverKnight
03-16-2007, 20:08
Gunther of Eichstadt enters the Diet chamber. He is acting as Otto's second while he is away in Italy. He holds a sealed message in his hand and moves to the center of the room to address the Diet.

My lords, Otto von Kassel, my master, has asked me to deliver a message to the Diet. He has asked that I unseal the letter here, and read it's entire contents to you.

Gunther cracks the seal and unfurls some papers, one of which appears to be stained with wine, he begins to read:

"My lords, I am sorry I cannot personally appear in the Diet to address you, but it has been a busy year in Italy crushing Venetians and getting married!

First, I must give my most heartfelt thanks to the Kaiser for granting me his daughter Elsebeth's hand in marriage. She is a fine woman, and I foresee many grandchildren for my father-in-law.

With this marriage I am now Duke of Bavaria. I will do my utmost to serve the Kaiser and the Reich. I am humbled by the gift of Genoa and I will gratefully add the territory to my Duchy.

As Duke, there are several acts I must announce. First, the Bavarian capital is to be moved to Innsbruck. Second, Maximillian Mandorf, now that he is no longer Steward, will be made Count of Nuremberg! In honor of his long and competent service to Bavaria he is also to keep the title of First Elector. Congratulations Maximillian, you have earned all of it!"

Gunther pauses to flip a page, he reads a bit forward and visibly pales. He speaks:

My lords, please know that the Duke has rather forcefully instructed me to read this verbatim, and that I am just a messenger.

Gunther continues reading the letter:

"There are, however, more serious matters I must address as Duke. While I am grateful for the gift of Genoa, it appears that a foreign army is trespassing on my new lands. I hereby invoke Charter Article 3.3:


3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Using the power granted to me as Duke by the Imperial Charter, I declare that a state of war now exists between the Reich and the Papal States!

Pope Gregory's transgressions against our lands and dignity end today!

The Bavarian Household army is to move to the area of Genoa to help expel Gregory from our soil. I have sent a messenger to the Kaiser to request Imperial assistance in this matter. He and the Imperial army are near Rome, I am sure he will be able to aid us.

God Bless the Kaiser! God Save the Reich!

Otto von Kassel, Duke of Bavaria"

Gunther, dropping the papers in shock onto the floor of the Diet, staggers to a chair and sits heavily.

Ituralde
03-16-2007, 20:35
Leopold rises immediately:

This is madness and you know it!

He looks enfuriated at Gunther von Eichstadt and then at the rest of the Diet, before continuing rather calmly.

We can not allow the actions of one single man to lead us into a struggle that will last for years. An attack against the Papal States will entail excommunciation and this would be in clear violation of Edict 2.24 passed in front of this Assembly! I also ask every attendant Elector to consider the wording of Charter Article 3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. Surley there is no such Edict in place and while the Dukes may be empowered, Duke Otto surely was not authorized by this body to attempt this folly! I demand that Otto von Kassel appear in front of this Diet immediately to answer for his foolish plans.

He has to be stopped! It is not in the interest of the Reich to wage war against the Holy Church and it is not in the interest of the Reich to expell us from our fellow Christians. To punish our faithful peasantry by throwing the gates of hell open and casting purgatory or worse on all of their souls!
This action stands in direct conflict with our recent agenda and would overthrow many plans made in the previous Diet session. Before we do anything rash that some of us will regret in the future, I demand that an Emergeny Session of the Diet be called to address this matter in the depth and thoroughness such a drastic step deserves.

Northnovas
03-16-2007, 20:54
The Austrian Elector pounds his desk supporting the Duke's words..

I heard rumours before coming here today and could not think it possible. This is foolishness!! There must be an Emergency Session to correct this folly!! We cannot war with the Church!!

continues to pound on his desk....

GeneralHankerchief
03-16-2007, 20:57
*Kaiser Heinrich bursts into the Diet, armor still on, with a look of ultimate triumph on his face. Energy is radiating from his person.*

Kaiser Heinrich:

Good Electors... I give you... ROME!

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_083.jpg

When I heard about Duke Otto's declaration of war, I rushed my army to Rome to assist my Bavarian friend in the war effort. They were caught unprepared and easily beaten.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/Chancellorship/excomm3.jpg

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/Chancellorship/excomm1.jpg

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_082.jpg

At last, the grand jewel of Europe is back where it belongs... in Imperial hands! That foolish Antipope Gregory may bluster about, but he will not win. Although I am sure by now he is calling his puppet Christian nations to his aid. It's a shame he called a crusade on Tunis, really.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/Chancellorship/excomm2.jpg

As to the legality of this measure, I must rule in favor of Duke Otto. Article 3.3 of the charter only requires the Diet to declare war on nations that have not entered our land. If such as faction has, for example, Antipope Gregory and his army in Genoa, then the Duke or Chancellor is allowed to do so without authorization from the Diet. In no way was Duke Otto's act breaking any Imperial laws, neither was mine.

I now implore Chancellor Mandorf to follow this up and destroy our enemies forever! Send von Kassel and I to Genoa and let us meet this Antipope in glorious battle! We are leading the Reich into a period of unsurpassed glory!

To arms!!!

Kagemusha
03-16-2007, 21:00
Duke of Franconia raises slowly from his seat and walks out from the Imperial Diet.

lilirishman1986
03-16-2007, 21:12
*stands and addresses the Diet with a look of glee on his face*

Now we truly are the Holy Roman Empire. Now what of Pope Gregory? I for one believe that his actions have been heretical in nature and that our actions are just according to the will of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our forces now can rule northern Italy unopposed as we have expelled the forces of the Papacy, Venice, and Milan. We are now the supreme power on our southern front. I state that our war with the papacy must be a lighting war so that our attention may be turned to our threats in the East and the West.

Let us mark this day down in the histories as a triumph to be treasured forever! Take forth our standard Mein Kaiser and eradicate this Antipope

GeneralHankerchief
03-16-2007, 21:16
Kaiser Heinrich:

Ah, I almost forgot to give Chancellor Mandorf my build queue for Rome. How rude of me.

1. repair stone wall
2. town hall
3. leather tanner

TinCow
03-16-2007, 22:33
*The doors of the Diet are thrown open with a deafening bang. Dozens of Teutonic Knights in full armor rush into the chamber, swords drawn. They form themselves into a semicircle, backs to the door, facing the center of the Diet chamber. More knights can be seen behind them, guarding the room from the outside. The Chancellor steps into the room, carefully remaining behind the cordon of steel.*

Rude. RUDE?!

You have committed the Reich to the fires of Hell! You have made us the targets for all who wish to gain favor with the Pope! Already we are attacked by Poland, Venice, Milan, and France. Now Denmark and Hungary will turn their armies towards us. How are we to protect our lands, our peoples, from so many enemies at once?!

You have perverted the law to serve your evil ends and you have manipulated me into providing you with the resources you needed for this blasphemy! I will NOT be your dog! You may be Kaiser and Otto may be Duke of Bavaria, but for now I remain Chancellor. You shall never again receive support of any kind from me. As your loyal minions fight and die in their unholy Crusade, you had best pray that the Prince of Lies animates their dead bodies to continue your war, for only in that way will you be replenished! The Bavarian Household Army will receive nothing of any kind until I am forced to supply it by law. Even then it will be manned with peasants rounded up from the stockades and brothels!

With God's blessing, Pope Gregory will slay you himself, but know that even if he falls I will remain! Your victory will turn to ashes in your hands and you will wither and die under my gaze. You will not survive what is to come!

*The Chancellor begins chanting in Latin and makes the sign of the Cross. His eyes close and his face turns upwards. He mumbles something quickly under his breath, before returning his gaze to the Kaiser. For what seems like ages, the two men stare at each other, unspeaking. Then the Chancellor turns on his heels and storms out of the Diet. The Teutonic Knights back out slowly, leaving the doors gaping open, the lock broken and the hinges bent.*

Warluster
03-16-2007, 22:54
Jobst Von Salza leans back in his seat, commenting in no way of the recent turn of events, agreeing with Kaiser and Mandorf.

GeneralHankerchief
03-16-2007, 23:01
Kaiser Heinrich:

Antipope Gregory was not approved by me, thus his claim is not valid and thus he is not the true Messenger of God. He has broken a system and tradition that has lasted over 1,000 years. All I am doing is simply adhering to Christian doctrine, before he twisted it to suit his own purposes. I am removing an usurper. If you do not believe that then you are a fool.

FactionHeir
03-16-2007, 23:09
While I cannot say that I am glad to know our peasants may soon be revolting due to this act of war, I must also congratulate the Emperor for bringing Rome back into the empire and fulfilling a vow he has made.
While the pope may be angered, I do not believe his anger will last for long, considering how he is now landless and standing alone. He will crawl to our doorsteps in time to reconcile us, for he knows that with the Holy Roman Empire enclosing nearly all of Italy, he is better off having us as his allies than his enemies.

GeneralHankerchief
03-16-2007, 23:17
With God's blessing, Pope Gregory will slay you himself, but know that even if he falls I will remain! Your victory will turn to ashes in your hands and you will wither and die under my gaze. You will not survive what is to come!

You dare proclaim that you will slay me? Slay your Kaiser, the one who has molded this Reich into the glorious nation that it is today?

I have toiled my entire life to rebuild the Reich from the ashes of the First Investiture Crisis. I will not be stopped by the likes of you and your treasonous venom. Between the two of us, you are the only one who has broken Imperial law by threatening my life! That alone is grounds for death, yet alone impeachment!

Ignoramus
03-16-2007, 23:26
The Sixth Elector of Swabia, Rupert von Zurich stands up.

It is a good thing that Rome has fallen. Greogory had no respect for our borders, and as such he was openly flaunting our authority.

I urge caution, however, that we do not provole the Sicilians by this act.

Kagemusha
03-16-2007, 23:30
Dietrich Von Saxony enters the Diet hall leaving armed guards on the door.

"Gentlemen.As far as im concerned im still incharge of the safety of this city.Are you planning on going at each others throat here,since i run into armed knights here in Diet hall. My opinion is that indeed Mandorf is still Chancellor and i would really like to ask my father in law now,what next? Once you have killed Gregory,will you also kill the Danes, Hungarians and Sicilians who will no doubt attack us once they hear about our excommunication?"

Dietrich remains standing,staring at the Kaiser.

Ituralde
03-16-2007, 23:55
Duke Leopold has remained seated thus far, his hands grasping tightly onto the armrest of his chair. He had shaken is head solemnly upon hearing his father's announcements. Now he steeples his hands in front oh his face, resting his chin on it and listening intently to the uproar going on around him.

flyd
03-17-2007, 00:05
Fredericus von Hamburg stands, red in the face, but managing to maintain composure

I shall limit this speech to considering the legality of this action. I shall not note how Heinrich continually puts his own interests ahead of the Empire. How the north has always been ignored. How it now comes under threat due to stupid actions taken in faraway Italy.

Err, yes.. the legality. The Charter has been violated. I speak of Section 3.3. The second clause of that section, which comes to us from an old Roman law, is intended to ensure the security of the state. Originally, it was the Roman Consul who had the power to declare war upon trespassing armies, and the rationale behind giving this power to the Consul was that he could react quickly to invasions, even if the invader had not officially declared war. In our version, the dukes were added as it is their responsibility to protect their own duchies. It's a good law, if its intent is followed.

Its intent has NOT been followed. The Papal army in Italy was not an immediate threat. It has been in Italy so long that the Diet had plenty of time to discuss what is to be done, and it has decided that no action was necessary. Nobody considered the Papal army hostile, and for good reason. It would have been foolish for Gregory to attack us, when he had much more effective ways of opposing us, such as with excommunication, or even calling crusades as he has done against the Sicilians. These things he has not done. It should be clear to all that this army was of no military threat.

As such, the actions of Duke Otto von Kassel did nothing to ensure the security of his own duchy, and did everything to compromise the security of the rest of the Empire. Attacking the Pope is not the same as attacking some other invader, which is why the Diet allowed the Pope to remain in our lands.

It should be clear to any reasonable man that Section 3.3 of the Charter has been violated. However, these events highlight a fatal flaw in the Charter itself. It is no secret that the Kaiser was behind this. I cannot recall if this was publicly admitted anywhere, but it's obvious, as Genoa was granted to Bavaria immediately after Otto was made duke, and immediately before the war was declared. The Papal army, that was supposedly such threat to Genoa, hasn't even been attacked, while the Kaiser has immediately marched on Rome. It is no secret that this is merely a continuation of the Kaiser's personal conflict with Gregory, and no attempt to protect Bavarian lands.

But this is where the Charter is flawed. The Kaiser is supposed to be bound by the Charter too, but if he alone is given the power to interpret it, he will be able to find all manner of loopholes for himself and his minions. Therefore, Sections 3.9 and 5.4 of the Charter must be amended. In the cases where it is the Kaiser that is personally violating the Charter, or using his powers to interpret it in a way to advance his personal agenda, he must be held responsible. Thus, when we next enter a formal session of the Diet, following the example of how the Romans dealt with issues of military incompetence, I shall propose the following amendment:

1. (a) The words "His rulings are final." are to be deleted from Section 3.9, and (b) The following is to be added to Section 5.4: "However, if three of the four Dukes agree that the Emperor is violating the Charter himself, or that he is allowing others to do so, they may establish a temporary tribunal to adjudicate on a particular rules dispute, and/or to place on trial those responsible for the Charter violation."

This is how I propose that this reform be enacted. Suggestions and alternatives are, of course, welcome.

Since we are in something of an emergency situation that was brought about by the Kaiser himself, I now urge the Prinz to ignore that the Kaiser is perfectly capable of attending the Diet, and to himself call an Emergency Session, using Sections 3.9 and/or 5.5 (the power to be a deputy in Kaiser's absence).

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 00:15
Dietrich Von Saxony:

"Indeed.Maybe we should call for emergency Diet and talk about the amendment Count Von Hamburg in his wisdom has suggested. I see that that kind of measures may have to be taken for this kind of misfortunates not to happen again."

GeneralHankerchief
03-17-2007, 00:19
Kaiser Heinrich:

I must disagree with Count von Hamburg's assessment of our Charter.


The Papal army in Italy was not an immediate threat.

You lack the authority to decide this. Duke von Kassel, who is responsible for the safety and well-being of Bavaria, assessed the situation and deemed that Antipope Gregory was indeed a threat and should have been removed. I trust his intent with this matter, as should you all.


It should be clear to any reasonable man that Section 3.3 of the Charter has been violated.

It has been violated only in spirit, if at all. Regardless of the origin of laws, they should still be weighed equally, for they are still law.


The Papal army, that was supposedly such threat to Genoa, hasn't even been attacked, while the Kaiser has immediately marched on Rome. It is no secret that this is merely a continuation of the Kaiser's personal conflict with Gregory, and no attempt to protect Bavarian lands.

This was a strategic decision. The Antipope now has nowhere to retreat to. His forces are unable to be replenished, and now we can combine forces and remove him forever.


or using his powers to interpret it in a way to advance his personal agenda

If it is legal, I fail to see the problem. Besides, I believe that I am a rather good determiner of what is good for the Reich as a whole, since I am bound to no House.


Since we are in something of an emergency situation that was brought about by the Kaiser himself, I now urge the Prinz to ignore that the Kaiser is perfectly capable of attending the Diet, and to himself call an Emergency Session, using Sections 3.9 and/or 5.5 (the power to be a deputy in Kaiser's absence).

If he does so, he is most definitely violating the charter, since I am most certainly not absent. If he calls for an emergency session I will override him.

Everything is well in hand. There is absolutely no reason to call an emergency session, aside from the chance to give the Antipapal puppets a chance to please their master and curtail this campaign before it has completed.

Also, Duke von Saxony, I will fight whomever wishes the Reich harm. Once this campaign finishes, a new, true Pope will be placed on the Seat and we will be reconciled. It will be painless, I assure you.

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 00:28
Dietrich Von Saxony:

"Mein Kaiser. How it will be painless? Becouse we others have all died and feel no pain anymore?.I hope that the Prinz will join the Diet soon,so we can hear his opinions about how this situation is so great to the reich."

Dietrich looks the Kaiser in disbelief in his eyes.

GeneralHankerchief
03-17-2007, 00:31
Kaiser Heinrich:

There will be one short battle. I am making my way to Genoa now to face the Antipope, and will be joined by Duke von Kassel and his Household Army. Combined with the Genoan garrison, we shall outnumber the Antipope's forces, and considering the fact that we possess the finest soldiers in the world, we will surely win. After that, order and doctrine will finally right themselves, and we will be reconciled.

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 00:50
Dietrich just stares at the Kaiser thinking "He talks about killing a Pope like its just meaningless business like hanging a robber.May God have mercy on his soul."

OverKnight
03-17-2007, 01:18
Gunther of Eichstadt is handed another message by a courier. Looking like he'd rather face the gallows, he stands to read the message:

"Kaiser, mein Prinz and my fellow Electors.

I certainly understand the consternation that runs through the Diet. I can only imagine the scene that must be unfolding in the chamber. This must be a terrible surprise for some of you.

Yet, think of the advantages. Duke Dietrich von Saxony and the Franconians can move against the Poles again unhindered. Once a true Pope is restored to the throne of Peter, he will look more kindly on our battles against our enemies. Rome is ours now, and a major part of our destiny is fulfilled. You might object to the means of our endeavor, but can you easily dismiss what we have and will accomplish? Having taken Rome, would you give it back? Having gotten rid of an overly temporal Pope, would you put another in his place?

The coming times will be difficult, but progress is not made without sacrifice. The world changes, and we must adapt. We will build a new order, and the Empire shall be at the apex of it. I ask that you join us in doing so. I will not ask for forgiveness, only your understanding. Once I have finished the work of Bavaria in Italy, I will return to the Diet. I will face you all then, answer your questions, rebut your condemnations, and sit among the electors once again. I look forward to that day.

Duke von Kassel"

econ21
03-17-2007, 01:47
Prinz Henry: I have been asked to give my opinions to the Diet on our current situation. Electors, you may leave now - what I have to say is of no consequence. I have no powers at this point. And even if I did, what could I do? Run to the Pope and beg for our forgiveness? Turn back time - liberate Rome and remove our excommunication? No, the die is cast. We are where we are.

But you want my opinion? You want my opinion on an unprovoked war of aggression committed by our men, by my father? You want my opinion on the Eternal City sacked and looted at our hands - it's people butchered? By God, even the Goths showed more restraint than us! Those godless barbarians were models of civility and respect compared to us. You want my opinion on the prospect of vast crusades of righteous Danes, Hungarians, Frenchmen, Poles and who know who else marching on our heartlands? You want my opinion on prospect of the Holy Father lying dead at the feet of my unholy father?

Electors, this is a sin - a damnable sin. It will take decades, centuries maybe, to wash the blood and guilt from our hands.

But I am powerless. And we are where we are.

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 01:55
Dietrich Von Saxony:

"I agree completely with Prinz Henry. This is where we stand and we cant turn the tide. For this reason i have ordered the Franconian Household army to resume our offensive against the Polish.While i dont like what has happened. I wont allow my Franconians to be butchered like sheeps and just wait for the slaughterer to arrive. While i dont support Kaisers decison to disgrace Rome and kill the Pope.I will strike down any forces that threaten Franconia.Were they Polish,Danes,or Devil himself. It is pointless for me to stay here in the Diet, so i will take my leave and move to Magdeburg to coordinate our efforts from there."

Dietrich Von Saxony leaves the Diet.

Jalf
03-17-2007, 02:23
Jonas von Mahren stands, looking pale
I will follow my duke. The Reich may not currently be ruled by sane men, but the lands of the Reich still need protection, and now more than ever. I fear I may be needed at Prague very soon, and once news spreads of our most recent misdeeds, probably half a dozen other places as well. Know that I will defend the lands of the Reich to the last. While Franconia and Austria are threatened, I cannot afford to waste time arguing in the diet over morals and the righteousness of attacking the pope.

follows Dietrich von Saxony out

nazgul3
03-17-2007, 02:24
5th bavarian elector stands slowly with mind boggeled

ScheiƟe! The deed is done and now we must look for to our defenses. What has happened cannot be changed however I look at our goals and taking Rome is one of them. I do not agree with the timing of taking this holy city, it is inevitable that we do. I am a pious man devout to God. God has willed us to take this city. We must now look to secure peace with the papal states so that we will not be excommunicated for the rest of our lives. I suggest we take a city that is of unimportance to us and than donate it to the papal states so that a pope of God's fortune may preside. I suggest Ajjocio, Tunis, or Tripoli this way we can show the papal states it was for there own good and the rest of God's children.

I know this sounds like a renagling deal but our goal is to capture Rome not destroy his Holiness. Let us pull a slight of hand towards the papal states. Show them that we still embody the rights of God by dedicating a city to them.

I must say this is truly unsettling time for me. However God will forgive us and i know he will. If God does not understand and forgive us.....than He is not God......... and we need not worry....

bows and walk away to pray

Warluster
03-17-2007, 02:37
Josbt Von Salza says nothing, and wishes he was back at his home, in Dijon, but notices the repetiveness of what people are saying, and everyone seems to be leaving, so he stands

What have those Electors been taking!? Why can't everybody just sit down like adults and discuss the matters! people barging in here and there, Knights walking around like its a loo! The stuff which is said around here I might think it is!

A spy could easily slip into this Imperial Diet! A SPy could just walk in when everybodys leaving during diet session! it absurd, and if you have things to discuss don't leave! We've all got places to attend to!

Jobst Von Salza sits

GeneralHankerchief
03-17-2007, 03:40
Kaiser Heinrich:

It is okay, Prinz Henry, I would not expect you to understand. After all, you have always been weak.

Antipope Gregory has never been the Holy Father. He has never received my approval, a tradition which all Popes for the past millenium have followed. Why should he be the one to break it? He is not the Messenger to God, because I did not decree it so. He is nothing more than a snake, one who has woven his way through your hearts and corrupted your heads.

Once this war is completed, we will take our proper position as the head of Christendom. Every Pope for the next thousand years will be a friend of the Reich, and those who are our enemies face eternal damnation, for the true Pope will be there to make sure of it! I am leading us into a prosperous future, and if you do not see it now, or later in your lives after my death, then eventually someone will recognize what I have done here. And they will lament the fact that I was under-appreciated, even hated for my noble actions that brought the Reich into a golden age.

It will be an impossible feat for the Danes, Hungarians, and other factions to marshal a full-scale invasion in such a short amount of time. By the time they do, Antipope Gregory will have been deposed and the new, true Pope put on the Seat. Then, he will reconcile us, with absolutely no harm done.

Warluster
03-17-2007, 03:42
So what is your plan if we don't despose of the Old pope? WHat happens if the Hungarians and Danish do invade? Have you thought of that?!

GeneralHankerchief
03-17-2007, 03:45
Kaiser Heinrich:

We will, and they won't. It's as simple as that.

nazgul3
03-17-2007, 04:56
Walks back into the diet after praying, talking to priests, and debated in his mind what has happened
Walks to the middle

If it is war that God grants then it is war all shall get. God has granted me the power to be strong like the apostles before him. I do not fight for a men in power nor do i fight for the devil in the shape of tyrants but rather i fight for God. God is my only true calling and the only one i shall ever answer to. No man can ever move me to what i think is ill will but He will always command my direct obedience. These actions have precursed me to take up the sword and shield, not for you Kaiser or mein Duke, but for the people you have put in harms way in this decision. It is the freedom of the common folk that i put myself in harms way for. I realize, I now fight for the Reich itself.... and everything it stands for. And! Not for the "noble" gentlemen who call themselves leaders. I now fight for the people and those who call themselves God's children.

I swear to God and all his saints (Cuts his hand with a blade, letting blood drip off) that if this war sacrifices any of our civilians in our cities that i will personally hunt down all in the name of God, which are responsible for this act. Yes that is a threat and you be sure to mark my words and mark them well. You know who you are....and Don't you dare mock me with your words because they are hollow with your rash decisions. Rome is now ours but at a cost that i do not think you are ready for. My plight has been known before this council and I will fight for those who have been neglected. I have always been humble before mein Lord and I know God favors me for my service!

God is with me men! Mein Chancellor is with me! Who Among you will stand and fight for the people! Who among you will show the courage and valour of the Reich. To protect our inhabitance from evil. I want to know now who will fight in the name of the LORD and for his PEOPLE! WHO IS WITH ME! Raises Sword in the Air

Stabs a sword in the middle of the Diet sticking to the ground. Then walks out with armor and shield in hand, staring at his Duke with rage for him and his enemy while all the ready to fight a battle as a soldier of God..no matter what his rank

Stuperman
03-17-2007, 05:00
I wish I shared the optimism of the Kaiser, the Danes will be looking to Hamburg to make thier Kingdom contigous (sp?). Hungary has showed agression in recent years, and how well can we trust the Sicilians? so far we have been attacked be everyone of our 'allies'.

I am truly happy to see the antipope gregory sweat, and for you Kaiser Heinrich to have your revenge. But Great empires fall when personal vendettas, aspairitions, and politics become more important than the intrests of the state.

*the 6th elector of Bavaria sits, hoping the storm of emotion has passed, and wondering who the 5th elector of Bavaria is going to fight with no sword.*

Ituralde
03-17-2007, 11:30
Finally, after following the deliberations and heated arguments, Leopold stands, composed, to adress the Diet:

Mein Kaiser, let me congratulate you on your capture of Rome! As others have said before me, what has been done, has been done. We can not change the past, but instead we have to look ahead to the future. I have disagreed with Ottos decision of declaring war against the Pope, but it seems like he did this with full support of our Kaiser. An emergency session of the Diet was not called and I don't believe there is any sense in asking for one. Our Kaiser will listen to us, when he chooses to do so. All that is left for us is to pray that the atrocity we caused will be forgiven, and that this second falling out between Gregory and Heinrich will turn out better than the last one.

What are we to do in the future though? There's is no stopping Emperor Heinrich from fighting Gregory on the battlefield. God will decide it's outcome and no matter how it turns out we have to accept it. But I fear that the recent developments, while advancing the Kaisers agenda against Rome, have put a halt to other matters. I believe the Doge still resides in Venice, although we had a huge army right at his doorstep. When will we resume our war efforts against the Venetians? My army near Vienna had to halt to secure our border against the Hungarians, instead of marching straight on to Zagreb.

Whatever the outcome of the conflict between Heinrich and Gregory I urge you to hasten it. Already the people of Milan, a Duchy we believed to be back under our control, are rebelling. If the Kaiser should succeed and depose Gregory than God has left his messenger on earth and Heinrich had every right to do what he did. A new Pope will be elected an we can only hope that our candidate will garner enough support to ascend to the office. But even if the new Pope were of German stock there's no guarantee that he will forgive us. I agree that the Papacy will need a home. Who will decide what we can offer the Pope? The Chancellor will surely head the negotiations, but the Kaiser has the ultimate goal of granting land.

I propose that in order to reconcile any new Pope Heinrich should offer one of his fiefdoms to the new Papacy to put them back into our grace. I would see the gift of Rome as fitting, as this would bestow us as final rulers of the Papacy, but I believe that the Kaiser would disagree with me here. Well give him Florence then, I think it's only just that you should loose one of your own fiefdoms to bring us back into the Papacy's graces.

What happens if Heinrich looses the battle against Gregory? Then God is no longer with us and purgatory or hell will await each and every one of us. I can only pray that God recognizes Heinrichs claims as true and grants him victory in the coming battle. If he looses, all his lost for the Reich! Let us pray and hope for the future. What has been done can not be undone and now the fate of the Reich lies with the Kaiser. He has started it and he will bring it to an end! May God have mercy on all our souls and grant us victory!

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 18:27
Dietrich Von Saxony:

"Gentlemen.Im sorry to inform you,but we are about to be sieged. Enjoy yourselves. Meanwhile i have to leave to destroy the Polish. I try to be fast,so the siege wont last too long."

Dietrich marches out from the Diet and rides to meet his army hoping he wont be catched by the Polish force redying itself on sieging the city.

GeneralHankerchief
03-17-2007, 18:36
Kaiser Heinrich:

Godspeed, Duke von Saxony. Aren't you glad that we don't have to worry about any Antipapal repercussions about driving off a besieging force?

TevashSzat
03-17-2007, 18:52
I am not at all in agreement over attacking Rome, but I suppose that what is done is done and we must now make the best out of our excommunicated status

Kagemusha
03-17-2007, 19:34
After few hours,Dietrich Von Saxony marches back to the Diet.

"Mein Herren.I hope you have had good time here in Diet. The Polish have been driven away, so they shouldnt try to interfere the Diet with their attempts to take the capital of Reich for atleast for a moment.Mein Kaiser. Happy is not the word that is in my mind currently. More like thirsty."

Dietrich sits on his place and takes a heavy sip from his Ale.

http://img152.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55960_pb7_122_519lo.jpg

TevashSzat
03-17-2007, 21:21
The pope it seems has been very active and has taken Genoa from us even with its large militia garrison. I propose we should take it back immedietely for it is a prosperous city that helps fill our coffers and the pope will most likely be killed should the city be taken allowing us to elect a pope that is more to our liking and maybe even be reconciled back to the church. The pope's personal army is however isn't a thing to be underestimated and a siege of the city will prove costly for us.

flyd
03-17-2007, 21:46
Yes, Duke von Kassel has done an excellent job of protecting Bavarian territories.

Stuperman
03-17-2007, 22:26
As a man of the house of Bavaria, I have to say I feel throughly used, First the Kaiser puts his man in charge of our house, then OUR household army is used to start the most important political war in the history of the Diet. Now Genoa, former capital of the Milanese rebels, and recent Bavarian aqusition lies in the hands of the Anti-pope. Next time Kaiser, Dinner and flowers first would be nice.

Warluster
03-18-2007, 00:49
Well don't blame the Kaiser becuase YOU lost, maybe Bavaria should've guaded it more if they liked it so much?

GeneralHankerchief
03-18-2007, 01:09
Kaiser Heinrich:

Genoa will be returned to Bavaria shortly. The long-term benefits of a friendly Pope will outweigh the short-term costs of a small loss of income.

AussieGiant
03-18-2007, 03:03
Making his travelled stained way into the Hall the 2nd Elector of Austria begins

Oh dear...I see life with Russian Merchants was infinately less complex than how the Reich is being handled.

I seems our esteemed Kaiser has continued to bend any and all events to his personal agenda.

I think I might have to go and secure more trade agreements with the Russians.

At least now I can relate to them as equals. It's not as if they are heathen orthodox's now. Maybe that could squeeze a few more florins from them.

Good day gentlemen.

May you all find some semblance of peace in your sleep.

econ21
03-18-2007, 04:04
Prinz Henry: Electors, it is time to end this madness. My father has been allowed to run wild for long enough. He forgets - he is not the Chancellor. He has no authority to command our armies to move or to fight. Even Dukes have no absolute authority to command Household armies between Diet sessions. The Chancellor is only obliged to follow orders written during Diet sessions; any interim orders are to be followed only at his discretion.

It is true we cannot turn back time - war has been declared on Pope Gregory; we cannot reverse that. It is true that it is our destiny to reign in Rome and that provides some mitigation for my father's action, although the manner of its fulfilling that destiny remains repugnant. But once Genoa has been reclaimed and Gregory's army defeated, we must cease hostilities against the Papacy. There has been speculation that my father and the Bavarians will seek out successor Popes. Perhaps even defenceless Cardinals will be hunted down and killed with the intention of placing a German in the Vatican. Such actions would go too far, Electors.

I urge the Chancellor to restore his authority over our forces. We must try to reconcile ourselves with Gregory's successor. If we are unsuccessful, we must endure the penance for our sins. Killing more Pontiffs and murdering other men of the cloth will not save our souls. And we will have little on earth to fear from Gregory's successor, even if he does remain hostile to us. When Genoa falls, he will have no Papal armies to command.

Now, you may say - could Gregory's successor call crusades against us? Perhaps he could - I do not know. I know not the fate of the crusade against Tunis. Perhaps it is still ongoing. Perhaps the time needed to prepare a second crusade is so long, this is not an imminent threat. But even in the worst case, should crusades be called against us I submit that fending off those attacks should be part of our atonement for our sins.

You may also say - what if we can never be reconciled? I say this - perhaps my father may never be reconciled. Perhaps what he has done is so heinous, he cannot earn forgiveness in this life. But the Empire is more than the Emperor. Emperors pass on, and with their passing the stain of their sins may be washed away from the land. Empires - Empires can endure for thousands of years, but only if they follow the path of righteousness.

Electors, it is time that the authority of the Diet is reasserted. If my father refuses to call an Emergency session of the Diet to determine its will, then I ask the Chancellor, who we elected to act on our behalf, to reassert his authority. And end this madness now!

AussieGiant
03-18-2007, 04:33
Standing immediately after the Prinz has finished

HEAR HEAR!!

Having been away for some time I must support my Prinz's words entirely.

It is quite clear to me that a technicality has been used to ignore and circumnavigate the wishes of this august body. Control has been lost in my opinion and steps must be taken to reassert the authority of the Chancellor over this Reich.

God knows how a member of this Diet can directly attact the Pope and ensure immediate excommunication WITHOUT it first being disucssed here!!

I'm sure EVERYONE here was more than comfortable with the edicts passed by this assembly to ensure this very thing did not happen THE WAY IT HAPPENED.

An emergency session of the Diet is THE MINIMUM requirement in this time of upheaval. Sanctions and penalties should also be considered. If we do not maintain some type of control over the actions of a few extreme individuals we are in grave danger of losing everything that has been achieved to date.

Begin your thoughts gentlemen, the nights are going to become extremely long one's in the weeks ahead.

GeneralHankerchief
03-18-2007, 04:46
*The Kaiser bursts into uncontrollable laughter after the past two speeches. After struggling to control himself, he resumes his usual composure.*

I'm sorry, Good Electors, I just can't help it. I have tried to explain it again and again to you, but apparently some people are so dense they still don't get it. So let me spell it out to them:

Reconciliation. Is. Imminent.

Antipope Gregory's reign of terror is soon to be at an end. Once I finish it with the recapture of Genoa, a new Pope, a true Pope, friendly to the Reich, will be appointed. I never said anything about killing other Popes. If I find the College of Cardinals' decision to be lacking, then I will simply inform them that they will need to choose again. After all, it's not like they will be able to resist.

An emergency session is hardly required. After all, what's to discuss? How much you hate me? One day you all will recognize what I have done, and regret your mistreatment of me.

Even if all goes wrong at Genoa and I happen to fall, we will still be reconciled, because Antipope Gregory will surely reward Prinz Henry's snivelling obedience to him and repeated lack of respect and deference to his damned father.

God help the Reich when my son becomes Kaiser. Surely he will make wrong everything I have righted in my long life.

Ituralde
03-18-2007, 12:19
A messenger from the House of Austria arrives and reads the following proclamation:

In accordance with Edict 5.25, Duke Leopold has captured Zagreb in a surprise night attack from the Venetians. Any resistance in the area will be duly crushed by his Lordship.

He also wants to remind this Assembly that with Venice still under the Doge's control this would invoke Edict 5.26, which calls for Duke Leopold to lead the attack on Venice. The Chancellor has been informed and my Lord has already made preparations to depart Zagreb, once the new rule is asserted.

Kagemusha
03-18-2007, 12:24
Dietrich Von Saxony:

"I congratulate our brave Duke Leopold on his victory! It must feel good to finally give back the Venetians their own medicine. I hope we can hear soon that Venice is under siege of Leopold´s Austrian host.

TevashSzat
03-18-2007, 16:47
The Kaiser I have this to ask of you. One could see your reasons for wanting Pope Gregory to be disposed of, but what will happen should one of our favored cardinals get elected and threatens us with excommunication? Will you back down or get us excommunicated again and then proceed to eliminate our candidate once again?

nazgul3
03-18-2007, 17:26
I dont care where reconciliation is iminent or not but you allowed our innocent people to be killed. Kaiser i hope u rot in hell and dine with Judas in the mouth of the devil. You my noble sire are a Traitor!

GeneralHankerchief
03-18-2007, 17:31
You my noble sire are a Traitor!

Kaiser Heinrich:

Actually, Good Elector, it is you who are a traitor for calling me such.

I remind the Diet that while I have subverted much of my authority to you, I am still the soverign here and you are to treat me as such.

nazgul3
03-18-2007, 22:28
A Sovereign who bends the rules in their favor killing inoccent people. It was your coercesion that lead to this, you are but a snake in the grass just like the one that caused the Fall of Man. Your divine right just went out the window when u attacked that very right which is givin to you by God, physically u have destroyed that right, therefore you are no more a man than a peasent in the fields.

GeneralHankerchief
03-18-2007, 22:35
Kaiser Heinrich:

And as far as I'm concerned, you have no authority to decide my current status. Good day.

TinCow
03-18-2007, 22:37
Kaiser, it appears that you are ignoring my most recent private letter to you. Therefore I am forced to address you publicly. I will give you 24 hours from the time Genoa falls to reconsider my offer. After that time is up, I shall do all that I have promised.

Dutch_guy
03-18-2007, 22:47
A messenger enters

Noble Lords, I inform you that my master, GĆ¼nther von Kastillien, has won the battle. He, however, regrets to say that the city is not taken. I am sure a report is on the way, describing in full the battle that was fought. He only asks a bit of patience, the road to Thorn is long and the roads unsafe.

That is all for now


The messenger turns around, and goes to sit with his fellow Franconians.

:balloon2:

Kagemusha
03-18-2007, 23:08
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Great news! Von Kastillien you bring honour to Franconia with your mighty deeds. Also Kaiser Heinrich.It has been quite long since we captured Magdeburg,have you already decided who shall have it,since it seems you have already decided to move the Capital to South,which will no doubt bring disorder to our Northern lands,since the Capital will be placed on the Southern border of Empire."

GeneralHankerchief
03-18-2007, 23:12
Kaiser Heinrich:

Fear not, Dietrich, Magdeburg and all other Polish territories will be placed in Franconian hands once the next Diet session comes. In the event of my death, let it be known that I intended to do so.

And now, I go to Genoa to face my destiny.

Kagemusha
03-18-2007, 23:29
Dietrich watches as the Kaiser leaves the hall and says quietly:

"May God have mercy on your soul,to all our souls."

TevashSzat
03-19-2007, 00:11
I notice the Kaiser has yet to answer my question. Is it because you simply have not read it or are you deliberately avoiding it because you fear the electors won't like your answer?

nazgul3
03-19-2007, 00:23
Oh i have plenty of authority to determine your status. Your status is living but we can always change that to dead.... I wouldn't want to keep your master in hell waiting any longer. And as far as I am concerned you should scrape up whatever decency you have left and land on your own sword in battle to help make amends and possibly take the bounty off our heads. I shall pray for you sir.

Leaves the diet

GeneralHankerchief
03-19-2007, 00:29
Kaiser Heinrich:

To the Fourth Elector of Swabia, our preferred candidate, Otterbach, was appointed to the position of priest because of me, when I full well knew her secret. She would not soon forget this favor.

As to the Fifth Elector of Bavaria, how dare you! You are stripped of your position in this Diet!

nazgul3
03-19-2007, 01:30
5th elector of Bavaria barges through the door of the diet

It would seem, my liege, you can't do that. Possibly over stepping your bounds again. Looks like u got a little trend goin on there. Little power hungary i am guessing. laughs Walks to the kaiser and looks him dead in the eye. Talks lowly so only the kaizer can hear
You need not fear me my lord...

Turns around and walks out of the diet

econ21
03-19-2007, 01:55
(Prinz Henry walks over to the guards at the entrance to the Diet debating chamber and points to the departing 5th Elector of Bavaria, whispering:) Do not let that man back in unless he has come to apologise.

Warluster
03-19-2007, 07:30
Jobst Von Salza watches the Elector leave, and spits in disgust
I thought only Austrians did that
Laughed Jobst VOn Salza quietly to himself, then he stood

I shall hope no more Electors act like that, as the fifth Elector of Bavaria will have somethign to fear, when I chop his head off.

Von Salza spits at where the Elector used to sit, and sits, clearly disgusted

Kagemusha
03-19-2007, 11:36
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Can i ask some ORDER,in the Diet? Have my fellow Electors forgotten,where they are? This is Imperial Diet,not some Tavern full of cuththroats!"

Dietrich sits down on his place looking irritated.

OverKnight
03-19-2007, 13:28
Gunther of Eichstadt clears his throat and reads another message from Otto:

"The Fifth Elector of Bavaria has been punished for his repeated threats of bodily harm to the Kaiser in the Diet. My ruling has been dispensed in the Bavarian quarters and I will not go into details here.

It is up to the Prinz, who imposed order in the Diet itself, when to allow him reentry into the chamber.

I hope we may continue our deliberations, particularly in the upcoming session, with a bit more decorum, no stabbings please."

At the mention of stabbings, Gunther looks around nervously and then takes his seat.

TinCow
03-19-2007, 16:29
On a completely unrelated note, I have spent a good deal of time during my Chancellorship visiting many of our settlements. During this tour, I have noticed that we have a large number of Thieves Guilds in the Reich, particularly in the Italian provinces. Not only is it rather un-Christian to promote theivery in this manner, but it is also denying many provinces the opportunity to gain the assistance of more useful Guilds. I would urge all lords to examine their provinces closely and inform me if they wish to make any changes to the Guilds that they find present there.

Stuperman
03-19-2007, 18:57
Congratulations to Duke Leopold for his success at Zagreb

econ21
03-19-2007, 19:02
[Prinz Henry]: I echo the Chancellor's remarks about thieves guilds. I would also ask Counts to review whether they wish to keep brothels in their settlements. I fear these sinful places will encourage any generals garrisoned there to pick up vices and bad traits.

GeneralHankerchief
03-19-2007, 23:13
A message is posted in the Diet for all to see:

"Due to the capital of the Reich being moved to Rome, deliberations will no longer take place in Frankfurt. Kindly make your way to the old Senate building in the Eternal City if you wish to partake in discussions."

Kaiser Heinrich:

Welcome, Good Electors, to Rome! I figured that since this is the Holy Roman Empire we should have our esteemed deliberations in this great city! History is all around us here... wow, I can still see a few red marks on the floor from when those two clerks were killed. But there are more important matters to be discussed than the glory of civilizations long past.

I am pleased to announce that Antipope Gregory's reign of terror is over, at long last!

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_093.jpg

With it came the reconciliation of Sicily and Milan...

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_094.jpg

...and thus the cancellation of the crusade to Tunis.

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_095.jpg

It seems that due to all the excitement and pressure of being a Preferati, the Milanese cardinal and favorite to ascend to the Papacy, Evio the Warmonger, has succumbed to a sudden heart attack. Oddly enough, the garrison of Milan was around when it happened and reported it to me directly, instead of waiting for Chancellor Mandorf. Oh well. At least now Otterbach is only one away from being a Preferati.

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_096.jpg

However, we have not yet been reconciled, and I am aware that this may concern some Electors that fear for my soul, as well as the Reich's. Therefore, I am hereby calling an emergency session of the Diet to address this concern.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do have a strategy in mind to combat this. I have decided to allow the College of Cardinals to retain the rights to elect a Pope, at least for now. I accept that I will have to deal with the concept of the preferati. However, my influence in selecting the new Pope will remain great.

I am putting all of my backing behind the esteemed Cardinal from Portugal in the upcoming election. He is quite old, as you know, older than Antipope Gregory was or I am. His Papacy will be a short one, and when he dies, Otterbach will ascend to the Preferati, where... erm... he will promptly be elected to Pope.

However, this may not be enough to sway some Electors. Since the crusade on Tunis has been cancelled, we will now undergo the specific waiting period until a new one may be called. Since Otterbach will surely be Pope when this period expires, we shall be able to use our good standing with... him to call a new one towards a specific target, any target we have in mind. Once this crusade is called, we will join up, and you Electors can all save your souls that I have put in danger.

If successfully taken, I propose that this new target (probably Jerusalem) be the new, permanent home of the Papacy. Meanwhile, we will conquer another territory in the Holy Land and establish a permanent base there.

This session of the Diet is only for discussing this proposal as well as ones related to the prospect of a new Crusade. Edicts that do not pertain will be ignored and left off the list. The normal Session in 1160 will have ample time to do so. This session will last for two days with a voting period of one day. Discussion begins now.

*bangs gavel*

TinCow
03-19-2007, 23:36
*Chancellor Mandorf turns to the Kaiser and bows. His descent continues to an angle which is sufficient to show proper gentlemanly respect, but stops short of gratuitous submission. He then straightens and exchanges a long, cold look with the Kaiser. Finally, he sighs heavily and turns to face the Diet.*

Electors, I have expended much effort to bring us here today. I have given an oath that I will not use this session of the Diet to criticize the Kaiser, to discuss the events regarding Pope Gregory and the taking of Rome, nor to propose any legislation which would reduce the Kaiser's influence, increase the influence of the Ducal Houses, or otherwise distract from the reason this Emergency Session has been called. Out of respect for myself, the Kaiser, and the fact that I have made an oath before Christ on these matters, I very firmly request that none of you engage in any of the activities that I myself have promised to abstain from. I cannot prevent you from speaking or from proposing Edicts on these matters, but I am a man of my word and I will actively oppose any statements criticizing the Kaiser during this session. Furthermore, I state here and now that I will vote against every single Edict which is proposed here today which does not relate directly to the reason we have assembled.

We are gathered here today to discuss salvation. We are gathered here today to discuss our souls and the afterlife. There are many different feelings about the events which have come to pass over the last several years. Some of us feel that we have sinned greatly and we fear for our immortal souls. It is to those who no longer know for sure their fate on the Day of Judgment that I now speak.

Electors, Christian Brothers, Romans, we must make penance for our sins. Whether we are right or wrong, we feel that we have made a stain that cannot be cleansed by simple means and small measures. It will require a grand effort, a great achievement, to feel that we have redeemed ourselves in the eyes of the Lord. There is only one method that I know of which can ensure that all of us will ascend to Heaven upon our deaths.

*Mandorf turns and faces the East end of the Diet chamber. He raises his arm and points towards the rising sun.*

That is where our salvation lies, my brothers. In the East. In Jerusalem. We will find our salvation by CRUSADE! I set a mission before you, Electors. Let us take up arms in the name of God. Let us travel to the land of Christ and take the Holy City from the Infidels. Once Jerusalem has been captured, let us then give the territory to the sitting Pope. It is only fitting that the Vicar of Christ rule from the City of Christ. Can any of you say that Florence is a seat befitting a Pope? Is Nuremberg? Frankfurt? Vienna? Staufen? No, my Electors. There is no province in our possession which can equal the splendor of Rome. Yet Jerusalem would be the most glorious seat of them all. Surely an Imperial Crusade to recapture Jerusalem for the Pope will be sufficient penance to earn our place in Heaven.

I note that the Kaiser has stated that this Crusade should occur with Papal authority after the appropriate waiting period has expired. I respectfully disagree. It could be many, many decades before a Crusade is called again and even then we will not likely be in favorable regard with the Pope. We must embark on this Crusade NOW, on our own, without Papal support. Indeed, the entire purpose of the Crusade is to demonstrate to the new Pope, and whomever may follow him, that the Reich is a land of Christ, worthy of his high regard. It is through the capture of Jerusalem and its donation to the Pope that we shall receive reconciliation.

I ask all Houses to voluntarily commit resources to this great journey. A very large professional army will be required, as it will be far from our lands and will not be easily reinforced. Many generals will be needed to make the Crusade. We may have to capture several territories in the Holy Land once we arrive and we will need competent commanders to defend and keep order in the new provinces.

Yet, we also have an immense need for some to remain behind. I suspect that many of you will wish to make the journey East. However, please consider what can also be done at home. The Crusade will take many, many years. Our enemies at home will not cease their attacks on us. Those that remain behind will have to defend all the Reich's borders and keep the Empire safe until the Crusade succeeds. They will lead the Household Armies in battle time and time again and become mighty defenders of the Roman people. Indeed, the very strain the Crusade will place upon our resources will provide those who remain behind with many opportunities to win salvation and improve their character.

It can be no secret that I wish to go on this Crusade. Yet, I say before you here and now that if the enlistment threatens to deprive the Reich of military leaders, I shall remain behind. This Crusade is necessary for our salvation, but we must not allow it to endanger our homelands.

I now present you with a draft Edict to make this Crusade into law. I have condensed several pieces of legislation into a single Edict, as I can only present one to this body at the moment without consultation with others. Please consider this Edict a draft version, which I will happily alter if you good men deem it necessary. If any of you wish to propose other Edicts relating to the Crusade, please do so.

Edict E1.1: In an effort to make penance for whatever sins we have incurred upon our souls during the violent overthrow and death of Pope Greogry, the Reich will launch a Crusade to capture the Holy City of Jerusalem. After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the sitting Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: For the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies.
6: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.

Let us take charge of our futures, Christian brothers! Let us campaign for our souls, for the Reich, and for the glory of God!

(OOC: Please read the OOC thread. There are several OOC issues which make the Crusade a good idea and we can discuss those there.)

TevashSzat
03-19-2007, 23:39
I do not think we should go on a crusade towards the Holy Lands because the journey is always trecherous with many potential enemies that could sink our ships. Also, should we be successful, we shall be faced with an empire in the Levant to govern which will surely drain up all of our money.

Should we give the newly captured to the Pope, even more trouble may arise as the Egyptians and Turks do not hide their feelings of animosity towards the Christian nations and would not hesitate to attack the territory of the Pope and may even kill the pope that we are supporting.

I do not know how the Edicts are numbered in this emergency session but I propose Edict 1.2 No crusades shall be launched or joined on any targets excessively far away from the empire

econ21
03-20-2007, 00:23
[Prinz Henry]: I fervently second the Chancellor's edict E1.1 for a crusade on Jerusalem. I believe the 4th Swabian Elector does not understand the rationale for this crusade.

It is because the path is treacherous and full of enemies that we must travel it. We seek to atone for our sins and it is only by undertaking a quest of this difficulty that we will do so.

It is because we stand to create an Empire in the Levant that this crusade is worthy. The Elector worries about money - the Holy Land is potentially rich, a crossroads for trade with the east. But regardless, no great Empire was ever formed by being afraid of spending money.

It is because a Christian Jersualem will always be the target of animosity from the Turks and Egyptians that we must be there to protect it. With us fighting at the side of the Papacy, no Muslim will prevail. By saving the life of the new Pope, we shall redeem the terrible crime of felling the old.

TevashSzat
03-20-2007, 00:49
Will be be carving out a new kingdom then in the Levant? Maximillion speaks of giving Jerusalem to the Pope, yet how can we protect the Pope without a base nearby to retrain our soldiers? The only way that we can is if we carve out a kingdom in the Levant. It is true that no great empire has been created due to being stingy, but you wouldn't be very happy should the retraining of troops in Europe be delayed for the sake of the troops in the Levant.

Also, has any logistics been thought out? Will be captured cities be left alone, sacked, or exterminated? Should the city will be left alone, many innocent people will be shared, but no money shall be made and there shall be no doubt that whispers of revolt shall appear merely days after our liberation. Furthermore, most of the population are Muslims who will not take pride in being governed by Christians requiring extremely large garrisons. One from the royal family may even need to consistently stay within a city in order to install public order. Do not let religious fervor blind you from the consequences of your actions.

TinCow
03-20-2007, 00:51
It is for exactly these reasons that the Crusade should be undertaken. The difficulties are the entire purpose. I fully expect that multiple settlements would be taken along the way, depending on the route the Crusade takes. Perhaps some generals would volunteer to stay behind and defend isolated castles as outposts of Christianity. Such a choice would be a great challenge to them and provide a valuable life-line to the advancing army. On the other hand, perhaps the Crusaders would choose to keep their forces concentrated and hope for victories without casualties to maintain their numbers, rather than reinforcements from captured castles. These would be choices the Crusaders would have to make for themselves.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 00:53
Edict E1.3: In an effort to make penance for whatever sins we have incurred upon our souls during the violent overthrow and death of Pope Greogry, the Reich will launch a Crusade to capture the Holy City of Jerusalem. After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the sitting Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: For the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies.
6: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.


This is what I propose fellow electors. It is only right that we continue to expand in Europe to support our crusading efforts and prevent our warmongering, treacherous and murderous neighbors from striking us when we least expect it!

Ignoramus
03-20-2007, 00:56
The Sixth Elector of Swabia rises to his feet.

Mein electors, I agree with Chancellor Mandorf. The infidel defile the Holy City with their mosques and imams. We must restore the Holy City back to Christian hands.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 01:10
Dietrich Von Saxony

"I support Mandorfs suggestion on going to Crusade to wash our sins away. What i dont support is that those who will stay defending the Reich,should just sit behind their castle walls,fending of enemies of the Reich. I think true men should take the war to the enemy always and not hide behind walls.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 01:21
Well said Dietrich von Sachsen!

It is bad enough that some of us shall be left behind to fend for ourselves and deal with rebellious slaves but cower behind walls like womenfolk and watch as the enemy devastates our lands, cuts our supply chains and razes villages and murders our German servants? I say that is completely unacceptable!

Those left behind should be able to decide for themselves what they wish to do instead of being bound to sit back and gain more vices in the taverns due to depression!

TinCow
03-20-2007, 01:23
I most certainly did not intend for the Edict to require us to cower behind walls! A defensive stance at home can still mean attacking enemy armies in their territories as well as ours. All that was stated in the Edict was that we refrain from taking Catholic settlements. If anything, I would expect that those who remained behind would be more active militarily than many of those who went on Crusade. There are only 11 capable generals in the Reich today. If 6 of them went on Crusade, they would have at most 2 armies to command between them and many would risk death in battle due to the vagaries of the battlefield. The 5 who remained at home would be required to command the 4 Household Armies against 4 active enemies on multiple fronts. They would be absolutely guaranteed of regular battle.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 01:28
Then why restrict the taking of settlements? If we do not take them, the enemy will only train more men to send against us and reap the rewards of trade and land. If we are allowed to fight the enemy in their territory as you say, why not take the capitol of the region while we are at it? Your words make no sense my chancellor and as such I feel that this one part of your edict will lead to its downfall.

Stuperman
03-20-2007, 01:29
As Maximillian points out, nothing in the edict prevents active defence, in fact fighting battles on foreign lands saves our from devostation.

ArchdukeEvan
03-20-2007, 01:32
Stands in the reletive calm after the

As my possition states... I support Edict E1.3 a crusade is a great idea and will surly ratify the Reichs position in Europe as the dominate power to all threats... but even with our glorious crusade we must still spread our influance in Europe... the Holy Land is far from our borders with France and Poland and Hungary...

sits after adressing the remaining members

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 01:34
Dietrich Von Saxony

"I dont know how sinfull you feel at the moment my fellow Germans,but i propose that only one Duke or Count and the Electors of each house shall stay behind. These men should not be hampered by artificial restrictions what they can and what they cant do. I suggest that the rest of us will take the Cross and lead by Kaiser will go to meet our destiny,whether it is glorious or salvation, or both."

Stuperman
03-20-2007, 01:42
Your words make no sense my chancellor and as such I feel that this one part of your edict will lead to its downfall.

No it is your words that make no sense. You suggest we continue to make war on catholic nations, actions that got Venice and Milan excommunicated, but at the same time suggest we attempt to please the pope by going on this crusade in his name, with the hopes ther we will have our excommunication lifted.

Surely what you are suggesting would only serve to cancel each other out, and over extend the riech's forces.

although I would support Marseille being added to the exceptions list.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 01:46
No it is your words that make no sense. You suggest we continue to make war on catholic nations, actions that got Venice and Milan excommunicated, but at the same time suggest we attempt to please the pope by going on this crusade in his name, with the hopes ther we will have our excommunication lifted.

Surely what you are suggesting would only serve to cancel each other out, and over extend the riech's forces.

although I would support Marseille being added to the exceptions list.

Then you surely wish to tell me why it is wrong to take a settlement when the chancellor himself confirmed that we may continue battling on foreign soil? Do you think the pope will be any more or less happy if we take a settlement and allow good German settlers to spread our culture and conviction? Do you realize that good Christians will not have to die if we can take those settlements instead of letting our enemies continue to push the populace to throw themselves into our swords and spears? Peace through victory!

Stuperman
03-20-2007, 01:56
perhaps we are misunderstanding each other, the wording of your edict, to me, indicated that there would be continued campaigning throughout europe, with catholic against catholic. Actions that would meet with papal disaproval, at a time when we are looking to improve relations with the pope.

I have no quams with fighting heathens though with thier twisted biblical interpertations, and false prophets, that is why I support the Chancellor's call for this crusade!

(OOC: no offence about the religious stuff, just playing the character)

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 02:05
I did not suggest in my edict that there would be constant campaigning - only that there should be no restrictions on it if our both important and revered generals who regrettably have to remain here wish to expand or feel the need to.
As I said, it is bad enough for them to have to stay here - why make it even harder?

Ituralde
03-20-2007, 02:30
Duke Leopold rises from his stand and extends regal bows to the Kaiser and the Chancellor, before turning his full attention to the Diet.

I wholeheartedly agree with Chancellor Mandorf that the recent struggle between Emperor Heinrich and the false Pope Gregory have cast shadows on our every souls. God has favoured Heinrich in the battle against Gregory, surely this shows that God favours the Reich and its inhabitants. However the spell of excommunication may not be taken lightly from our shoulders.
A Crusade is a noble and holy cause that will purify the soul of every man that undertakes this difficult journey. I agree that we should not be shocked or thrown back by the difficulties this will impose on the Reich, a sacrifice is necessary to right the wrongs caused by us in the past. Much Christian blood has been shed and it is our divine duty to remedy our sins by freeing the city where Jesus, God's own son, our saviour, has accomplished so much in his lifetime. That heathens now control the city and soil the sacred halls can not be tolerated. I therefore support the call for a Crusade and would be the first to take up the cross and journey East!

What is this talk of an unsanctioned Crusade, that Mandorf has proposed though? Without the divine mandate of God's representative on Earth any army marching East will be nothing more than a conquering, plundering host. It does not matter how noble and pious our hearts and goals may be on the upcoming journey, but without the blessing of the leader of Christendom we would be nothing more than invaders, and instead of salvation and the forgiveness of our sins, only more bloodshed will lie at the end of our journey.
To even think of undertaking this holiest of journeys in the Name of our Lord and Christ while we're standing outside of the church sounds like blasphemy to my ears!

The struggle has been between Heinrich and Gregory, the holder of the office, not the office itself. An unlawful upsurper that has been overthrown by the continued and persistent effort of our beloved Kaiser!
We have to seek unity with the new Papacy again, by showing them that our recent actions were not aimed at the Holy See, but against Gregory and his false claims! What better way to show them our reverence than to give them what has been theirs ever since Saint Peter. I urge every one here to consider giving the Papacy what has been rightfully theirs, give them Rome!
Reconciliation would be assured for us and a great amount of our sins repaid with little effort. Once this has been done it will only be another small step to persuade whoever holds the office to grant us our mission, to sanction our journey East, to give us the divine mandate we need to accomplish the holiest of all journeys!

You want the Pope to wait until this long journey is finished before granting them any land? Would you have them ponder around these lands without shelter, knocking on the doors of every Duke and King to gain entrance like some poor beggar? This is no way to treat God's representative on Earth, the Pope! If we give them back what is rightfully theirs and was only taken to weaken Gregory's position, we will be assured of their eternal gratitude. No longer can they claim that they proclaim the Kaiser, when we are the ones that have given them the powerbase they need to oversee the well-being of all Christendom.
Also consider that other countries may approach the new Pope to offer him the shelter he so desperately needs, thus raising themselves above their fellow Catholics as preservers and saviours of the Papacy. For a long time they would hold sway over the Holy See, while we would be left with an unauthorized expedition to nowhere that would lead to nothing.

Because of all the reasons above I present you a rough draft of Edict E1.4:
The City of Rome is to be returned to whichever Cardinal gets elected as Pope in the upcoming Elections.
Once we have been reconciled and the proper amount of time has passed we will ask the current Pope to call a Crusade against Jerusalem so that every man in the Empire willing to take up the sword may do so to redeem the sins we have laden upon us in the recent bloodshed between Emperor Heinrich and Gregory.
After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the current Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.


If you have anything you wish to be changed or amended to this Edict please speak up. You may notice that I have taken the liberty to base some of my draft on Chancellor Mandorfs propositions. While his ideas ring true with me, a Crusade is only a Crusade if authorized by Papal law, and I will not join or support any other military action that aims on imitating this holy and honorable journey!

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 02:44
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Leopold,once again you have shown us your good character and clear judgement. But im afraid,it is only the Kaiser,who has the authority to give out settlements away. So Mein Kaiser, what say you? Will you give Rome back to Holy Church?"

GeneralHankerchief
03-20-2007, 02:56
Kaiser Heinrich:

Rome is the new capital of the Reich, not the Papacy. I would prefer it if I spent my final years on Earth in happy, peaceful retirement, only fighting to defend the city from whomever may attack it. No, Rome is out of the question. The focus will be on whether we give the Papacy one of our current territories, a territory in the Holy Land, or no territories at all.

As for which of these Edicts to support, I am still undecided between E1.1 and E1.3. Therefore, I hereby second both of them in the name of increased discussion.

Northnovas
03-20-2007, 02:57
I would like to add further to my Duke's words that a Crusade cannot be a Crusade without true authorization. An amendment to Edict 1.4 would be after the conquering of the Holy Land. The City of Jerusalem will be gifted to the Pope and Rome returned to the Reich.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 03:03
Dietrich Von Saxony

"So mein Kaiser,you will not lead our forces into Holy land?Neither will you give Rome to the Mother Church? I guess it is not worthy for Holy Roman Emperor to lead the troops to conquer the city of Christ."

Dietrich sits down looking at the Kaiser,with an empty expression on his face.

GeneralHankerchief
03-20-2007, 03:05
Kaiser Heinrich:

I am very old, Dietrich. I would die in the Balkans, in non-Christian territory. I called for this session to specifically request a Crusade. That will suffice. Of course, if you don't agree, I could just adjourn this session now.

Ignoramus
03-20-2007, 03:09
Would we feed the mouth that bites us? That lying dog, Gregory, sought the destruction of our Reich. It is fitting that he perish by an Imperial sword.

As for the Papal Court, they deserve nothing but contempt. If we were to gift them a city, I would grant them the pagan, backwater village of Vilnus, not the jewel of Europe.

Ituralde
03-20-2007, 03:09
I have consulted with my scribes and have yet to find the passage in our Charter that 'authorizes the Kaiser to give settlements away' as my fellow Duke has put it. Maybe you could point the section you're referring to out?

I believe that the Kaiser has to abide by the rulings of this Diet like every other man here, that's the reason this august body is assembled to guide Emperor Heinrich with our wisdom. The Papacy has resided in Rome ever since Saint Peter. What claims do we have on the Eternal City to take it away from them?
If the Kaisers quarrel was with Gregory, and Gregory alone as he has always claimed, giving up what has never rightfully belonged to us should not pose a great obstacle and I hope that my fellow Electors agree with me here.

If however my propositions don't find enough support in this body I could change the Edict to reflect this. Maybe Florence would be a better choice then?

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 03:16
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Mein Kaiser, we have 5 years between each other. Im too old to defend Franconia alone waiting for new men to step up from the ranks of my Electors. My hands are soaked in Christian blood from decades of war and im tired of killing my fellow Christians. Maybe i should go? I think that i will not see Jerusalem, but im still not too old to fight the heathens for a while and help our men on their way to Holy Land. I think it would be better for me to go even half way,then to stay here fighting with Christians."

ArchdukeEvan
03-20-2007, 03:18
I must agree with My Duke... Rome never seemed an objective... and because of this I will second his changes in the form of Edict E1.4 if we cant give the city back... then Florance will do...

OverKnight
03-20-2007, 07:04
Otto von Kassel rises to speak. He wears the Herzogskrone of Bavaria on his brow, but it is the only indication of his new rank, as he is dressed in soldier's garb. A scar now runs down the right side of his face from temple to chin.

It is good to be back in the Diet, even if the location of our gathering has changed.

It seems that we have three iterations of essentially the same amendment. I say amendment, because the Crusade would ignore or modifiy several charter rules, and this is outside the powers of an edict. If all three amendments make it to the ballot, I doubt any will receive the two thirds majority needed to pass. Should we vote on which version we want, and then see if that one will get a majority?

I stand firmly behind amendment e1.1. It already has the needed seconders, and this should be no surprise. Maximillian's idea is commendable, even it's opponents have shaped their own proposals around it.

I must speak out against Duke Leopold's e1.4. You would give away the Reich's capital to the Pope? The Emperors ruled from here long before Pontiffs. It is ours again after an interregnum, we will not give it back. Even when the Popes did rule from here, they were at the mercy of the scheming Senators of Rome or any local Warlord who decided to march on the city, such as the Sicilians. We have restored the proper Imperial adminstration of this city.

Then Duke Leopold states that if we do not approve of giving Rome to the new Pope, he would happily substitute Florence. Perhaps the Duke wasn't listening to his father earlier, but Florence is Bavarian now. The Duke is very generous with lands that do not belong to him. If you wish to donate chunks of the Reich to the Church, your Grace, why don't you start with Vienna, Prague or Zagreb? You actually have title to those. Once territory is given to the Duchies, it is theirs. I will not hand Bavarian territory over to the Church.

As for e1.3, I can see the case for limited offensive action on our borders, yet this is already covered in the first amendment. Fifth Elector of Swabia, if you wish territories added to the list of permitted conquests speak with Maximillian, when announcing e1.1 he expressed a willingness to take suggestions. Most of our resources, however, should be focused on the Crusade.

It seems if one of the Crusade amendment passes, our assembly will be split into two factions. Those who go on the long march to Jerusalem will be the Sword of the Faith. It is a noble calling, and if we bring the Holy Land back into Christendom, the Empire's feat will echo throughout the ages.

Yet no less noble will be those who stay behind, for they will be the Shield of the Reich. It will be their duty to defend the Empire from our numerous enemies and provide supplies and reinforcements for those on Crusade. Together the Sword and the Shield will accomplish great things!

I will take up the Shield! The Crusade is Maximillian's brainchild and he will represent Bavaria. I will stay and defend the Reich. I must see to affairs in my Duchy and ensure that there is an heir.

A flash of pain crosses Otto's face and his tone grows hushed.

The Lord has not blessed Elsebeth and me yet with any living children. I would not inflict the rigors of a march across Europe on her.

Otto's expression lightens again.

As Shield or Sword, we have a great task before us! If we complete it, the world will stand in awe of us and the Church will have no choice but to reconcile with us on our terms. I ask that you support Maximillian's proposal.

For God, the Kaiser and the Reich!

Otto returns to his seat.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 09:40
After carefully examining the Imperial charter,with his scribes. Dietrich stands up and speaks.

"I hereby second Edict 1.4. We are germans not Romans and as our ancestors,the mild climate of Italy will just soften us. I think that the Capital of Reich should be in center of our lands and Rome should be the seat of Pope. Maybe my father in law Kaiser Heinrich,should spend rest of his days in Florence. I hear the weather there is just as good as it is here in Rome."

econ21
03-20-2007, 10:34
OOC: I propose:

Charter Amendment E1.1: The console command function will be used to give 10000 florins to each AI faction each turn.

The amendment needs two seconders please.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 10:55
OOC: I support.

Ituralde
03-20-2007, 11:23
Duke Leopold rises again to adress Otto von Kassel.

I am most unfortunate to have missed the recent appointment of Florence to the House of Bavaria, it is hard to follow the shoving of provinces down your throat for your noble services to the Reich! Your lands far exceed those of any other House present here, surley you would gladly give one of your own fiefdoms to restore those sins posed upon us by your declaration of war, not against Gregory, but the Papacy as whole. If I had been at the source of the recent uproar that would be the least I could do.

I will stand by my Edict. Preferably Rome or Florence will be gifted to the Papacy immedieatelly and no 'Crusade' without the Pope's blessing!

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 11:24
OOC: You cannot give another faction florins with the console. Only yourself. The only way to give the AI florins is by giving yourself some and sending a diplomat around to gift it. This doesn't work with factions at war however.

OverKnight
03-20-2007, 11:36
Otto smiles, his scar standing out livid on his face, and responds to Leopold.

It is curious that you would not back your words with a gift from your own territory. As I do not support your amendment, Bavaria will not donate Florence to advance your interests, which renders the proposal moot.

Tell me Leopold, do you speak from simple jealousy? Or is your "outrage" a political maneuver?

That is all I will say on the matter, as the focus of this session is on the proposed Crusade.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 11:42
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Von Kassel, if you are so focused on the crusade,why are you not going on it? It is intresting how others should go to wash your´s and Kaisers hands from the blood of the Pope,while you two will stay behind."

Dietrich looks Von Kassel,with contempt in his eyes.

OverKnight
03-20-2007, 11:49
Otto shifts his gaze from Leopold to Dietrich

I have already answered that question, Duke von Saxony, in my previous speech. I will not repeat the reasons. Believe me or not. Consult a scribe if you're memory fails you.

If you two want to rake me over the coals, send a messenger or bring it up in the next Diet session. This is not the time or the place.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 11:59
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Well,Duke of Bavaria. Isnt this the Imperial diet right now. I think there is nothing in the charter that stops either myself or Leopold from suggesting anything here. I just find it it very intresting how enthusiastic you are on sending many of the best men of Reich to take the holy city,while you will stay behind with Kaiser. After all,without you two we would have never tarnished the shield of Reich,like its tarnished now. So to use my right to propose edicts in the Imperail Diet,i hereby propose Edict 1.5 Incase the Diet decides that a crusade is to be sent to the Holy Land. Kaiser Heinrich,should lead it.

Dietrich sits down back on his place.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 12:12
I do not believe that is a good idea, Dietrich von Sachsen.
Everyone should join the crusade out of their own will, not be forced into it.
The purpose of a crusade is to repent and seek salvation, something that must come from the depths of one's self.
If one believes that one has not sinned, or one does not need to seek salvation, or even knows that there is no tangible chance of ever completing that task, then there is no need for them to go.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 12:17
Dietrich Von Saxony

"I completely agree with the previous speaker. Those who feel no remorse becouse of the sins they have committed themselves, should stay home and not depart to the Holy land. But no doubt that a task so magnificigent like taking back the holy grave should be lead by the Kaiser of the most Christian Empire on the face of the Earth. This is honour,not forcing anyone."

TinCow
03-20-2007, 12:25
Regarding the provision of Rome or Florence to the Papacy, Florence clearly cannot be taken away from Bavaria without Duke Otto's permission. While the wording is not specific about the Emperor's ability to retain control of his own provinces, it also does not say that they can be removed from him by Edict. In the event of a dispute, the Kaiser would rule on the interpretation which I believe we all know would lead to him retaining Rome.

There is no point in discussing providing a settlement to the Papacy if the owner of the settlement is unwilling to part with it. I am only a Count and would have to consult with Duke Otto in private, but I would be willing to give up my noble title and allow Nuremburg to be given to the Papacy. However, I will only volunteer for this sacrifice if the Diet supports Edict E1.1. I believe firmly that that method is the best way to benefit of the Reich.

Northnovas
03-20-2007, 12:40
The Third Elector stands and rereads Edict 1.4

I would like to second Duke Lepolds Edict and which has been second by the 5th Elector of Austria. Stating:

The City of Rome or the City of Florence is to be returned to whichever Cardinal gets elected as Pope in the upcoming Elections.
Once we have been reconciled and the proper amount of time has passed we will ask the current Pope to call a Crusade against Jerusalem so that every man in the Empire willing to take up the sword may do so to redeem the sins we have laden upon us in the recent bloodshed between Emperor Heinrich and Gregory.
After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the current Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.

That makes 2 seconders for Edict 1.4
There cannot be a true Crusade without lawful authority.

The Elector returns to his seat

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 12:48
Dietrich Von Saxony gazes at the 3rd Austrian Elector from his seat and says

"I believe that your seconding makes three of us,who have seconded LeopoldĀ“s edict.

With a little smile, hardly regogniceable, he takes a sip from his wine.

TinCow
03-20-2007, 13:54
In accordance with private agreements, I am amending Edict E1.1 to remove subsection 5 (dealing with restrictions on expansion). The new Edict E1.1 reads as follows:


Edict E1.1: In an effort to make penance for whatever sins we have incurred upon our souls during the violent overthrow and death of Pope Greogry, the Reich will launch a Crusade to capture the Holy City of Jerusalem. After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the sitting Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.

econ21
03-20-2007, 13:59
Prinz Henry: I propose the old clause 5 of E1.1 as a standalone edict:

Edict E1.6: If E1.1 passes, for the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies.

Since revised E1.1 is now identical to E1.3, I ask the 5th Elector of Swabia to withdraw E1.3.

OOC: Revised Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

TinCow
03-20-2007, 14:08
I second Edict E1.6 (econ21's) and Revised Charter Amendment CAE1.1.

Stuperman
03-20-2007, 14:21
My fellow electors, perhaps persumptious (sp) of me, but I worry about the home front while on this great crusade. I worry that with no limitation on military action all this work to be redeemed will be for naught, I worry that should we adopt a defensive strategy, the HRE will be come a ripe target, or that many could-be-great generals will languish in obscurity. It is with these concerns in mind that I present a third option.

Emergency Edict 1.7:

Should edict E1.1 pass for the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, Marseille and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies. Additionally, should the HRE be attacked by any nations it is not at war with at the time of the attack, one (1) settlement may be annexed from that nation of the Chancellor's choice.

edit: for edict #

OverKnight
03-20-2007, 14:42
I will second edict E1.6 (econ) and E1.7 (Stuperman)

They should both be put to a vote.

OOC Edit: Changed to show correct edict numbers.

TinCow
03-20-2007, 14:45
I will also second Edict E1.7 (Stuperman's) for voting purposes.

FactionHeir
03-20-2007, 15:25
I withdraw E1.3 as the chancellor has agreed to split his edict after discussion

econ21
03-20-2007, 16:33
Prinz Henry: A list of edicts and their seconders has been posted at the entrance to the Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1461425&postcount=1

Please advise me if there are any errors.

OOC: The Constitutional Amendment still needs another seconder.

Kagemusha
03-20-2007, 16:35
OOC:I will support the amendment.

Northnovas
03-20-2007, 16:54
Dietrich Von Saxony gazes at the 3rd Austrian Elector from his seat and says

"I believe that your seconding makes three of us,who have seconded LeopoldĀ“s edict.

With a little smile, hardly regogniceable, he takes a sip from his wine.

Stands to address Dietrich Von Saxony among the other speakers

My Lord, I apologies for my oversight and the House of Austria is grateful for your support to Duke Leopolds edict.

Sits back down and reviews edicts

GeneralHankerchief
03-20-2007, 17:56
Kaiser Heinrich:

Leave me in peace, von Saxony! The reasons I have for not partaking in this crusade are my own. Whether you agree with my policies or not, you must respect the fact that the Reich has grown in power and prestige in my reign. My one last wish is to spend the remainder of my days here, in Rome.

Warluster
03-21-2007, 01:17
Too much war.

Thats what I say, we all talk of fighting Nations in deserts of far away lands, gaining glory. WHat glroy does war have? What does Nations of far away lands have to do with us!?

We are already at war with Venice,Papal STates, Milan, Poland,France and manmy more, and now you want to send OUR armies away!? Leave our lands with no support? I assure you our enemies wills trike, and very hard.

SO I go against the Crusade, ti leaves us open, with ourselves surrounded by enemies!

econ21
03-21-2007, 13:39
Prinz Henry: Although it is by no means clear that Edict 1.1 will pass, in the event that it does, it may speed the Chancellor's job of organising a crusade if he knows from the start who would wish to join it.

Consequently, I ask each Duke to state who among their House would join the crusade proposed in Edict 1.1?

For Swabia's part, in view of Count Von Salva's statement, I believe it will only be I who joins. I would also wish to commit to the crusade some of the resources that would otherwise go to the Swabian Household Army - at least one regiment of pavisse crossbows and one of dismounted Feudal knights. I would also be willing to detach other forces if the Chancellor judges they are required and can be spared. I do not believe the crusade should set off with less than the full complement of 20 regiments, including our bodyguards.

Duke Leopold has also declared against the crusade and so presumably would not join.

I wonder what Duke Otto and Duke Dietrich can say about the contribution of the Houses of Bavaria and Franconia?

TinCow
03-21-2007, 13:49
Prinz Henry, you are most wise to bring up this topic. The very reason I wished for the Emergency Session to be called this year was to allow me to use the time remaining in my term to assemble the Crusade. If Edict E1.1 passes and everything goes as planned, I anticipate that the Crusade could depart in the first or second year of the next Chancellor's term.

As there seems to be a somewhat lackluster response to the Crusade, I do not anticipate an over-abundance of volunteers. Accordingly, I declare my intention to join.

Kagemusha
03-21-2007, 13:49
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Mein Prinz, i will place my support behind the edict 1.4 from Duke Leopold.Becouse to me it sounds more reasonable. Incase still if 1.1 will pass. I will myself will join the Crusade. I know im old,but i think it is as holy task to join the Crusade as its is to see it reach its destination. Which i will propably not witness.My Counts and Knight Von Mahren can decide themselves,if they will take the cross or not. Due to nature of Franconia and its large defendable area.I would prefer for atleast two of my Commanders to stay home, so Franconia can be protected from enemies of the Reich. About the troops.I wish that only our escorts and maybe some Teutonic knights would join the Crusade.We need every other men to fend of the enemies of Franconia"

OverKnight
03-21-2007, 14:10
Otto rises to speak.

It is only fitting that Maximillian, who proposed the idea of this Crusade, will represent Bavaria. I wish that I could go as well, but I have already given my reasons as to why I will stay to defend the Reich and Bavaria. I have not heard from Gerhard Steffen, and I will not speak for him.

Once the Bavarian Household Army has finished the remnants of the Milanese on the mainland, Bavarian territories will be relatively secure. I will then put the Army at the disposal of the Chancellor. He may take as much of the Army as he wishes to the Holy Land, I leave it to his discretion. Bavaria supports the Crusade in word and deed!

Otto sits.

econ21
03-21-2007, 22:17
Prinz Henry: Gentlemen, I think we have all said what we have to say and I fear I am going down with a temperature. I have instructed the scribe to open the polls for 24 hours. Now, I shall retire for the evening. This our first Emergency Session is closed.

nazgul3
03-21-2007, 23:10
Walks up to the guards in a long robe and whispers to the guard who lets me in...The diet is empty bc of voting. I walk in slowly touching the marble of the diet. I spot my seat and walk to the middle of the diet. I notice the true granduere of the diet as it imposes when empty. Sits in his empty seat and waits for the rest of the Diet.

ArchdukeEvan
03-21-2007, 23:19
comes in after the voting to read in the quiet... and spots the other elector...

well now... what a pleasent suprise to find you back... are you going to kill anyone this time?... i was eagerly awaiting it last time...

laughs at his minor sarcasm... goes to his seat and opens a book

nazgul3
03-22-2007, 00:19
Behind my long brown robe with face hidden in a low deep voice

It would seem so noble lord. 'r tis true of your pleasentness? Mein noble i extend thy hand in frienship, I hope thou shall find peace in thy heart. Mein noble sire, elector of Austria, thou shalt always be considered friendly to me. I have never had coarse relations t'word thee. But tis death thou seeks, than i shall watch your back and together fight the infidels on our lords will. What say you mein elector, whilst thou take thy hand in peace?

Raises hand out of the robe, holding it out sincerely. Face is still covered waiting for the electors response

ArchdukeEvan
03-22-2007, 01:13
puts down his book and walks over... suddenly thankfull for his chainmail armor on underneith his clothing...

i will take your offer of peace... but maybe i made a mistake earlier? i must have... you seemed very similar to another... my apoliges far elector...

takes his hand in agreement

nazgul3
03-22-2007, 01:54
Looks up at the elector..his eyes steady at the his slight response to the armor underneath

Thank you honorable sir. It is i who am blessed for your honor. Nods May i inquisite as thou may confuse me of? It seems you react as such a man of little confusion. I assure you sir Tis not the same person underneath you have doth witnessed before. But a man anew blessed by ze Lord above. Here stands a man charitable in peace with wisdom and calmness. 'ver the battlefield is the same man but with the attitude of a lion and prowess of a tiger. For thy will serve no better honor to watch your back. Humbly sir I wish you well and do not want to delay your reading further with my rhetoric. Thank you again.

Nods again and lowers his head, covering the armor

GeneralHankerchief
03-22-2007, 02:31
Kaiser Heinrich:

So certainly you will take back your previous remarks about your Lord and Kaiser, then, Good Elector.

ArchdukeEvan
03-22-2007, 02:38
starteled by sudden appearance of the Kiaser... the elector moves quickly back to his seat... and sits... reading and listen to the insuing conversation between the two

nazgul3
03-22-2007, 03:53
In the corner of his eye, notices the Kaizer. Steps off his seat and walks to the Kaizer....Speaks softly...facing man to man, the face still halfly covered by the hood

It seems that i 've over stepped my bounds mein Kaizer. I hope that you will take heed to thy message of impending attack. However thou has something to speak of, once the diet has returned. If thou doth allow me to speak first i shall make my intentions be known. I know thou will not trust thy honorable self just yet...But will say this, thy Kaizer is control of the holy city..it seems God favors you. In thus calling me good, i am humbly capable of your postion..thus acquiescent of your venerable valence. Allow thee triumphant one, to return such a gift has thou returned upon me. Mein self will become whole upon mention. For you i wll fight for.

Extends his hand in show of good faith.

Kagemusha
03-22-2007, 14:20
Nevermind.

FactionHeir
03-22-2007, 14:23
Well von Sachsen, it seems that the scribe made a clerical error and omitted the emperor's votes the first time.
The new results problaim that E1.1 is in effect accompanied by E1.7

And I suppose we need to vote on how to punish the scribe for omitting the emperor's votes.

Kagemusha
03-22-2007, 14:25
Dietrich Von Saxony

And it seems that the polls are not even closed yet. There are still Electors who hasnt voted.

TinCow
03-22-2007, 16:34
Electors, it has not passed my attention that there has been much speculation about the next election for Chancellor. I have heard several suggestions that I run for re-election. I wish to firmly state here and now that I will not seek another term in office. It was during my Chancellorship that this conflict with Pope Gregory finally erupted into open war. I failed to keep the peace and we are now forced to embark on a Crusade to purge these sins.

There are many Electors who would make a worthy candidate for Chancellor. I encourage all who have any interest in the position to consider campaigning in 1160.

Kagemusha
03-22-2007, 16:41
Dietrich Von Saxony

"My stand on issue is double edged. If we are to embark on the crusade immediately like 1.1 suggest´s. In that case i will not run for Chancellor,since i couldnt do honour for the rank,since i would be travelling away to far away lands. Incase 1.1 doesnt pass. I would be honoured to apply for the position of the next Chancellor of the Reich,now before i will turn too old to handle the affairs of the Reich."

Dietrich bows to the Diet and sits back on his place.

OverKnight
03-23-2007, 04:37
Gunther of Eichstadt, looking somewhat better after the end of the Investiture Crisis, stands to read a message from Otto to the Diet:

My Lords, Duke von Kassel has fulfilled Edict 5.13 by engaging and utterly beating the Milanese forces outside of Genoa. The Milanese lord, Bindello Columbana was killed in battle. Of the 653 Milanese, 257 were killed, 370 were captured and only 26 escaped. The Duke wishes to congratulate Gerhard Steffen, he and his retainers were responsible for killing or capturing 230 men alone.

The prisoners were released. . .

Gunther looks quizzically at the message.

Hmm? He must have written that wrong. . .it says the prisoners were released and they took flight to a Milanese galley off shore. None of those "bloody merchants" are left on the mainland. Imperial losses were 150 men.

Gunther sits.

FactionHeir
03-23-2007, 05:01
Eichstadt, I am quite certain Edict 5.13 called for the destruction of the Milanese remaining on the mainland, not the release of Milanese to the ships. Could you inform von Kassel about this?

econ21
03-23-2007, 12:33
Prinz Henry: My congratulations to Duke Otto for expelling the Milanese from the continent! The Duke is now free to join Duke Dietrich, the Chancellor and myself in preparations for the crusade.

I would like to briefly comment on the outcome of the recent Emergency Diet. Although the majority decisions were clear, I recognise that active Electors were deeply divided on the merits of both a crusade and a limit on our expansion during that crusade. I know there is unhappiness both among those who are not joining the crusade (looks at Leopold) and those who are (looks at Dietrich).

I can only say that, as a member for the Council of Crusaders and, God willing, as a future Emperor, I will work to the best of my abilities to further the interest and respond to the concerns of all Electors. I will try to ensure that no House or Elector is disadvantaged by joining or not joining the Crusade. I see the crusade as providing more opportunities both for participants and non-participants. I will work equally hard to secure the defence of the Reich and the success of the Crusade. While the crusade will initially stretch the resources of the Reich, I believe in the long term it will bring us closer to our goal of re-establishing hegemony of the Roman Empire over Europe.

That said, I must now attend to my duties outside the Diet. For those of us going on the crusade, there are preparations to be made. For those who are staying behind, they too have work to do: dark clouds are gathering as our many enemies muster against us.

OverKnight
03-23-2007, 22:08
Otto von Kassel enters the Diet. He has a quick, whispered conversation with Gunther and then speaks:

Thank you, Prinz Henry, for your congratulations. I wish that your fellow Swabian was as gracious.

Fifth Elector, since I proposed edict 5.13, I believe that it has been accomplished. The Milanese Army that had been devastating Italian lands for many years has been destroyed, the survivors took flight to a Milanese fleet off the coast.

We could enter into a semantic argument where you would insist destruction implies the complete annihilation of every soldier in that Army. I would respond that the organization and leadership of the Army was destroyed, hence destroying the Army, with the survivors being meaningless to the equation. But I will not bandy words with you.

The prisoners were released for many reasons, it was not done on a whim. First, there was a route of retreat available that allowed the survivors to leave our territory. Second, since this Diet voted to leave the Milanese their islands and attempt peace negotiations, I felt releasing the prisoners might aid the negotiation process if it continued. Our reputation needs all the help it can get at the moment. Third, the Chancellor gave me no specific orders as to the disposition of prisoners, I used my judgement as an Army Commander, which is my right. If they are foolhardy enough to return, I'm sure Gerhard will finish them.

That is the justification for my actions. If a crushing defeat of the Milanese and expelling them from the mainland is not good enough for you, I suggest you pursue them to Corsica and finish the job with your own army.

Otto sits.

Jalf
03-24-2007, 20:38
von Mahren enters the Diet, for the first time in years, and hurries over to join the Franconian delegation

Apologies for my recent absence. Matters in Prague have... Well, to be honest, matters in Prague have not kept me very busy at all. The city has been so peaceful lately that it was all too easy to forget all about politics and just wait for news from the rest of the Reich.

Well, news finally reached me, so here I am again. Unfortunately, I am too late to vote in the recent emergency session, but I would like to offer my services in the coming Crusade.

GeneralHankerchief
03-24-2007, 23:08
Kaiser Heinrich:

I congratulate Elector Maximillian Mandorf on a fine term. May others seek to live up to his example.

The 1160 Diet session is now open. Electors have three days to propose and second motions and two days to vote. In addition, any aspiring candidates for Chancellor should come forward.

*bangs gavel*

-edit- Elector nazgul3 has apologized sufficiently. He is therefore allowed to take part in the deliberations.

GeneralHankerchief
03-24-2007, 23:32
Kaiser Heinrich:

Good Electors, there has been talk of a Crusader standing for the position of Chancellor. I do not agree with this. To be blunt, the Reich has become quite large and difficult to manage. It has already been decided long ago that the terms of Chancellors were to be halved, and we have only grown in size since then. I do not see how one person will be able to manage this task when they are thousands of miles from Rome and not connected to the main body of the Empire at all.

Orders will be lost or stolen. In addition, they will not be able to properly assess the threats facing the homeland. I believe that the Chancellor's first goal should be to see the Reich prosper - not to make sure that a Crusade succeeds. That is why the Crusader Council is in place.

Therefore, I propose the following:

Charter Amendment 6.1: Electors are not allowed to hold the office of Chancellor if they are in a province that is separated from Imperial territory by over two provinces.

TevashSzat
03-24-2007, 23:37
Seeing as my protests over the crusades are ignored, what is to happen with our empire in the Holy Lands? Will the lands be governed by all, will some house take control of it, or will a new house be formed to govern it?

Warluster
03-24-2007, 23:43
When the Crusaders reach there crusade target, then I think either the Commanding General should govern the settlement, or the most experinced.

And at I guess, once we have conquered our target, we look to expanding more in the Holy Land?

Warluster
03-24-2007, 23:44
When the Crusaders reach there crusade target, then I think either the Commanding General should govern the settlement, or the most experinced.

And at I guess, once we have conquered our target, we look to expanding more in the Holy Land?

FactionHeir
03-24-2007, 23:50
OOC:
After discussion in the OOC thread and with econ21, I propose
OOC Charter Amendment 6.2:
Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

If you want more information on those or a copy beforehand, that can be arranged.

IC: So the diet is officially open, yes?

TinCow
03-25-2007, 00:04
I would like to remind all Electors that in accordance with Charter Amendment 5.2:, only 1 Edict or Amendment is permitted per Elector. If you wish to propose more than one, you must get the permission of your Duke to use one of the three Household edict slots. Remember that each of the Household edicts must be pre-seconded by two members of your Household.

Consider carefully any Edicts that you are about to propose. A poorly written and ill-conceived Edict will simply waste your time and could prevent you from proposing any more.

econ21
03-25-2007, 02:33
Prinz Henry: After some reflection, I have decided to stand for Chancellor. This is with some reluctance, as there are other men - Dietrich, Otto and indeed Maximillan who has served us so well - who I would prefer to see as the next Chancellor. But these fine men have indicated a desire not to stand and so I feel obliged to do so in their stead.

The last Chancellorship, through no fault of the incumbent, saw the will of the Diet usurped by the machinations of my father. He plunged us into a state of crisis, excommunicated for our action in taking Rome. This creates two challenges for the Reich: to endure and to atone.

Enduring will not be easy. What we have seen so far is the calm before the storm. The Chancellor has reported significant French, Hungarian and Venetian armies on or in our borders. Electors, these are but the vanguard. As we speak, the Catholic kings are using all their powers to raise extra revenue to fund holy wars against us. The non-Catholics do likewise, sensing the threat that our nascent crusade poses to them. We have voted to restrain our own expansion during the coming years. This was wise, as surely much of our efforts will be devoted to restraining the expansion of others.

I believe I am well equipped to safeguard our Empire during this difficult period. It was I who conceived of the idea of Household Armies. I believe these forces will be instrumental in safeguarding our frontiers. I will strive to modernise these forces - using the fortresses of Staufen and Thorn to provide dismounted feudal knights and pavisse crossbowmen to upgrade our capacity. Electors, you will recall I was criticised at the start of the last Chancellorship for wishing to pour vast amounts of money into the creating a fortress at Staufen. Now, gentlemen, you will see how I will repay that investment.

But enduring is not enough. We have committed ourselves to atone for our actions in taking Rome by embarking on a great crusade. Shepherding that crusade towards the Holy Land will be the main enterprises of the Reich in the years to come. I submit that it will be most efficiently executed by electing a crusader as Chancellor. Only a man fully committed to this enterprise can be trusted to make sure it is well funded and well coordinated. We have already seen what can be done if an unscrupulous figure bends laws to further their own agenda. We cannot have a repeat of such discord and division. We must work together, harmonising the dual goals of saving our Reich and saving our souls. Committing the task of guarding the Reich and guiding the Crusade to one and the same person is the best way to achieve this.

There are those who question whether a crusader can govern the Reich. Such men would have you believe that Jerusalem is on the moon! If the Romans could govern Jerusalem, could not a man in Jerusalem govern Rome? Good lines of communication will be created - our sourthern navy rebuilt to ensure them - and I will appoint a functionary who will represent me in the Diet. But Electors, I say this in all humility: if elected Chancellor, I will not rule over you. I will act as a facilitator - ensuring the smooth execution of the wishes of the Houses and the Council of Crusaders. I will liase and inform; I will endeavour to chart a smooth passage over the troubled waters that lie ahead - for both the homelands and the crusade.

There is one other issue that may concern the Electors - what if my father should pass on while I am Chancellor? In such an event, I swear that if elected, I would not use my Royal perogative to take the next Chancellorship as well. I recognise that having one man in power for too long is undesirable. I will reserve my perogative for a later time, perhaps when some new crisis befalls us and once again I feel obliged to serve you.

ArchdukeEvan
03-25-2007, 02:43
I second the Kiaser's propisition
Charter Amendment 6.1: Electors are not allowed to hold the office of Chancellor if they are in a province that is separated from Imperial territory by over two provinces. as i belive that only a gerneral in the Reich, can truly contral the Reich...

also
If the Romans could govern Jerusalem, could not a man in Jerusalem govern Rome? i must say that has not the Roman Empire fallen into ruins?... and historicly... has not Judea been the most secsesful of the revolts agianst Rome?... Distance makes every hardship multiply.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 02:45
I will refrain from commenting on the election and proposed Amendments until others have had a chance to speak. However, there is one issue I feel strongly about. Accordingly, I shall use my personal Edict to propose the following:

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.

There are many in this Diet who have given great services to their Houses. *Mandorf nods respectfully to some members of the Austrian delegation.* Yet these men are deprived of land and title due to the nature of our laws. We must change this so that those who demonstrate great loyalty and aptitude may be rewarded by their Dukes.

TevashSzat
03-25-2007, 03:16
Fourth Elector of Swabia stands up clapping

I vehemently support Prinz Henry's decision to run for Chancellor. He has been a strong leader for the House of Swabia for many years now and have lead us to nothing but success and will no doubt do the same for the Empire should he be elected.

The Kaiser's proposition however is troublesome. As our empire grows, our war fronts will be farther and farther away from the heartland of the Empire. How could we have a competent Chancellor if they are oblivious to our war efforts and sits safely in our capital throwing orders around. It is rather better to have a Chancellor that comes from the fringes of our Empire as he will have a better perspective regarding the situations at our borders and know how to deal with external problems.

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 04:50
Kaiser Heinrich:

I have but one response to Henry's comments.


He plunged us into a state of crisis, excommunicated for our action in taking Rome.

Good Electors, let me throw out a number here:

Zero.

That is the number of new wars we have been involved in since my "despicable" actions got us excommunicated. That is the number of territories we have lost since we have been excommunicated. Hell, that is the number of settlements that have been threatened aside from those that the Papacy have.

Life has gone on as usual since Rome has been taken, Good Electors! The noble houses of Franconia and Austria have continued to make progress against their longtime enemies, just as they have before the excommunication! All that has been lost in this situation is a man in a position of power who was unfriendly to us.

Good Electors, Prinz Henry speaks of nonexistent threats. He is using the actions of his evil, unholy, despicable father (me) as a campaign platform, promising change. Well, maybe change isn't good! After all, look at how much excommunication has hurt us! Don't forget, thanks to my doings we will soon have a Pope that will give us carte blanche.

And finally, I forgot. Please excuse my old age, but I have one more comment to respond to.


If the Romans could govern Jerusalem, could not a man in Jerusalem govern Rome?

The difference is, Henry, that all of the land between Jerusalem and Rome was Roman.

Prinz Henry, you are simply not qualified for the position of Chancellor. You have not the stomach for it. Unfortunately, the Reich will automatically be subject to a term of your Chancellorship due to your God-given power as incoming Kaiser. Please spare them from a second term.

OverKnight
03-25-2007, 05:35
Otto's gaze travels between the Kaiser and the Prinz. He rubs the scar on the right side of his face as he looks down at a small note in his hand. The Duke rises to speak.

I will second Charter Amendments 6.2 and 6.3.

Otto moves to sit, but turns to speak to the Emperor.

Mein Kaiser, if you wish to run for Chancellor, I will support you. If not, I will support your eldest son. Next time, please send your men to my study. I would not have Elsebeth disturbed while she is sleeping.

Otto bows to Heinrich. Heels clicking together as he comes to attention, he pivots crisply and returns to his seat.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 05:49
*Maximillian Mandorf raises an eyebrow when the Kaiser begins speaking. After the first few lines, he chuckles slightly.*

Zero wars? Do you not consider our conflict with the Papal States to be a war? I suppose your battles at Rome and Genoa were simply 'keeping order'? Since this is not a war, was your recent unwillingness to face Pope Accattus on the field due to his odor?

Zero territories lost? I suppose Pope Gregory was merely touring the wonderous sites of Genoa for a few years. I must admit, he was rather more energetic than I would expect for a Bishop of Rome. The festivities he threw must have been truely extravagant, for he left the entire city something of a mess. I would hate to imagine what would have happened had Pope Gregory decided to actually take the city.

Yes, my Kaiser. Thank you for all the good you have done for us lately. We are all immensely grateful for your selfless acts. By the way, do you know if Pope Accattus is planning a party in Rome? I hear he takes after his predecessor in some respects.

Csargo
03-25-2007, 06:39
Mein Prinz do you not think that being Chancellor would burden your prior commitments like the Crusade? I believe that should be your first priority, not matters at home since you will be far from the Reich. Since my Duke will be accompanying you on the Crusade I would rather your full attention be focused on that.

econ21
03-25-2007, 12:35
Fifth Elector of Franconia, as you know the Crusade will be governed by a five man Council of equals, of which I am but one. A key issue for the Crusade will be liasing with the Chancellor, to make sure it is informed by the latest intelligence and well supported by Imperial resources. Electing a crusader to the post will minimise the chance of delays, misunderstandings and lack of coordination.

As to my father's reference to imaginary threats, we will see. I will wager that Hungary and Denmark will strike against us soon; perhaps Sicily too. Such events will particularly challenge the two Houses my father has identified as having made progress: Franconia and Austria.

Kagemusha
03-25-2007, 12:43
Dietrich Von Saxony

"Mein Prinz, just as you stated.Houses of Franconia and Austria will be in most danger after we have left. And becouse of that i think the Chancellor should come from other of those houses. My opinion stands that the Chancellor should be in Germany and i dont see a better man in the Reich,for the next Chancellor as Duke Leopold of Austria,if he decides to run."

Ituralde
03-25-2007, 13:10
Mein Kaiser, Dukes, Electors!

It has not been long since we last met in this hall to discuss the proceedings of our Empire. A far-reaching decision has been made by this august body to assemble a host and march East. A Crusade it should be, without the consent of the Pope, and a Crusade it will be by the power of this Assembly. You all know my opinion on these matter through the Edict I have proposed during the Emergency Diet. Of course I would have preferred that course of action, but I have full respect for the decision made and will follow it. This leaves me no choice but to stay behind. Our borders will be threatened and I will be needed to defend the Reich against it's enemies. Like a shield I will stand before any intruders trying to advance on the lands of Austria, and I offer you to stand like a shield before anyone trying to harm the Empire in the upcoming times. I offer myself for the post of Chancellor, if you so accept me.

As you know I hail from a border-country and know of the perils that lay at the fringes of our Empire. I have proven in the past that I am capable of keeping our enemies at bay. Time and time again have I defended my lands against the Venetian merchantmen and my army is ready to strike at their capital of Venice as we speak. I assure you that I am well capable of delivering the same feat upon anyone daring to attack our lands, to ravage our countryside and slaughter our people!
But what would endless war, but even more war breed?
Therefore I will dedicate my Chancellorship to securing our borders, and building up our infrastructure. The Ducal armies of Swabia and Bavaria need to be brought to full strength so that our Western border may be as secure as our Eastern border has become. We will be spread thin and troubled times lie ahead of us. I promise to give to those remaining all the support necessary to defend our Reich from its enemies on all sides. We shall crush any armies entering our territories and send out emissaries to commission peace. It will not be a peace of weakness, but a peace of strength, dictated by us to our satisfaction. If our enemies won't accept, let them come and we shall break their attacks, like the rocks crush the surf!

I appreciate Prince Henry's commitment to also stand for Chancellor. There will be troublesome times ahead for him and those pious and noble men that have chosen to accompany him, too. Hardships will await them on their journey beyond the imagination of most men present here, travelling through the lands of he heathens will face these men with many challenges, and only the bravest, strongest, and mightiest will prevail. I will give those men, the troops and support they need to carry out their enormous task. I will help you plot the best course through the treacherous lands of our enemies and follow any orders given by the Crusader Council to the letter to assure that your journey will be successful. Let my first help be my candidacy for Chancellorship. It will be an honour for me to relieve my brother Prince Henry of this burden, so that he may focus all his attentions towards the success of your mission. We all know that full dedication will be needed and any distraction could spell disaster for the whole enterprise.

It is vital for our Crusade to succeed to be welcomed back in the family of our Christian neighbours. This will make peace an option in our future. Either way it will take years to do this and my Chancellorship will probably not see the end of your journey, meaning that it will take a long time until any Pope will recognize and appreciate the success and rightfulness of our actions.
This brings me to the next point, concerning our current excommunication. I don't know how long our Kaiser and Pope Attacus intend to play hound and hare in the vicinity of Rome, but this has to end. I will send emissaries to Attacus in an attempt to end the current situation. I have already mentioned in the last Diet what steps could be undertaken by those responsible for our current situation to remedy it. If you would but agree then I promise you we could be reconciled by the end of the next turn. Currently excommunication puts a major strain on our tax revenues through the unrest it is causing among our populace and will incite our neighbours to attack us.
Don't think that any amendations to the Papacy now will be permanently. Once the Pope has Jerusalem he will joyfully give back the temporal home we have given to him. If not, I would not be opposed to a forceful persuasion. I'm sure he will thank us for it generously once he arrives in Jerusalem.

This concludes my aims should I become Chancellor. I will reside by the rulings of this Council and hope that you will find me worthy of leading us through these troubled times.

He bows deeply in front of the Diet.

I will second all Charter Amendments proposed thus far.

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 14:17
Kaiser Heinrich:

Since the Prinz only addresses one of my comments directed at him, I assume that he agrees with the other statements I have made.

As for Mandorf, do not deny that every settlement in our possession before excommunication is in our possession now.

I wholeheartedly support Duke Leopold's bid for Chancellorship in this upcoming election, and I encourage all others, especially those whom I've helped out in the past, to do so as well.

econ21
03-25-2007, 15:10
Prinz Henry: Father, as usual you presume too much. I doubt there is anything you could say in this Diet which you could assume I agree with. Were you to say that you have ten toes, I would ask you to remove your boots before I concurred.

ArchdukeEvan
03-25-2007, 15:21
stands up into the heat of a family fued

Kiaser, Prinz... will you excuse me

I would like to propose an Edict, Edict 6.1 I belive? ... anyways excuse my numbering if i am wrong

Edict 6.1 If, during the course of the crusade, Hungary Declares War upon the Reich in anyway, the Reich will strick back by taking Budapest. This shall take into account Papel relations, and will not be used if Excuminication insues

I Belive that Budapest would be a great addition to the Eastern Front, and will surely power the Reich in many glorious campaigns to come.

sits

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 15:32
Kaiser Heinrich:

And yet, you still do not respond to these comments. At least make an effort to do something aside from attack me.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 15:34
Duke Leopold, at the last election it was obvious that you were nothing more than a tool of the Kaiser. Why is that no longer the case? You are a very capable military commander and I do not doubt your management abilities, but I have not forgotten where you stood during the last election. It is clear that the Kaiser remains delusional and self-righteous. He does not see any error in what he has done and he thinks there have been no consequences of importance. I will not see an ally of the Kaiser in the Chancellor's office.

Dutch_guy
03-25-2007, 15:40
I for one do not find it prudent if a crusader takes the post of Chancellor. Even one as competent as our very own Prince Henry. Who knows what may happen out in the east, and we need stability and certainty now more than ever. Especially since we 'll be losing tons of troops and half a dozen noble generals to a crusade to the Holy land.

I find that a Chancellor such as Leopold, of the noble house of Austria, would be best for the Reich. Not only has he shown, numerous times I might add, how to make our enemies suffer, but he also knows how it is to defend. Austria is much like Franconia, it is never quite safe.


:balloon2:

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 15:41
Kaiser Heinrich:

Self-righteous? Delusional?! I do not think that there have been any consequences of importance because there have been no consequences of importance.

Our greatest enemy is removed. Soon Pope Accattus will be dead and we will have Otterbach on the Papal seat. Once again, none of the other great Catholic powers of Europe, save for the Papacy itself, have declared war on us. None. The Reich is still humming along financially. As a matter of fact, we are so secure in our position that we are about to send thousands of troops and several of our best generals on a Crusade to far-away Jerusalem. Good Electors, these are things we would not do if we were "crippled" by my horrid actions.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 15:49
So, my Kaiser, is it no consequence that the only way we have been able to maintain order in nearly all of our cities has been to reduce taxes to the minimum level? Even at that level, Milan appears to be decending into rioting once again. The Imperial Treasury is losing many thousands of florins a year due to reduced taxes alone. Perhaps the Kings of Rome can defecate precious metals, but the rest of us mortal men have to secure incomes from our lands.

ArchdukeEvan
03-25-2007, 15:56
well... i must say that this diet has definatly desended into a group of men... defecating... insults at one another... in other... more bussiness like... and less insulting news... i support my Dukes, non-Kaiser, related bid for Chanclership.

Ituralde
03-25-2007, 16:46
Ah Count Mandorf, do I need to remind you that I have been one of the most outspoken critics of the Kaiser's actions in this Diet? I have alway opposed Excommunication and have already mentioned that I will do everything in my power to redeem the current situation, if those responsible give me the means to do it.

Speaking of the Kaiser's tools you don't even have to look beyond your own House to find one, I believe. I did what I did for the good of the House of Austria. Those dealings lie in the past and just because I returned Heinrich a favour that doesn't mean I succumbed to being his pawn, like others present here. Instead I remain independent as befits a Duke. If I get elected Chancellor I will follow no other agenda than the one outlined in my previous speech.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 17:12
I did not intend disrespect by my question, Duke Leopold, and I apologize if that is how it was perceived. Indeed, I simply wished to hear from your own mouth that you are your own man and beholden to no one.

Jalf
03-25-2007, 17:25
Von Mahren grins and, in a stage whisper, says to von Saxony, "You know what worries me the most about us going on a crusade? Never mind the dangers we will undoubtedly face, but I fear the Diet will soon descend into a bar brawl without the few level-headed nobles such as yourself and the Prinz to keep a minimum of order. I'll bet you 200 florins the building will be on fire when we return"

Ahem... Perhaps if the Kaiser still sees a need to justify his actions, he could do it elsewhere, without disrupting the Diet? If he believes there is nothing to discuss, why does he keep trying to discuss it?
And while I am sure this royal vendetta between father and son will be amusing to watch unfold, this is not the place for it.
Let us keep our minds on the business at hand. And let us try to remember that we are the leaders of the finest nation in Europe, not a group of thugs and barbarians. Let's have some order here, and treatour fellow electors with a minimum of courtesy, even if we disagree with their actions.

I believe the Prinz would make an excellent chancellor. He has shown his worth before, and I have no doubt he would be a good choice. Nevertheless, he is embarking on a crusade, and, let's face it, may not return alive. And if he does, it won't be for many years. At the moment, the Reich needs a Chancellor whose focus is on our homelands, and who is not thousands of miles away. Perhaps after the Crusade, he can take up the position as Chancellor.

I will support Duke Leopold in the coming election.

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 18:05
Perhaps if the Kaiser still sees a need to justify his actions, he could do it elsewhere, without disrupting the Diet? If he believes there is nothing to discuss, why does he keep trying to discuss it?
And while I am sure this royal vendetta between father and son will be amusing to watch unfold, this is not the place for it.

Elector von Mahren, this being my city and my Diet, I will decide what is and is not proper, thank you. I simply want the Prinz to toughen up and act like a man, not the version of Henry that is more like his two sisters than a Prinz that we have seen.

Mandorf - this situation will be resolved as soon as Otterbach is elevated to the Papacy.

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 18:41
Kaiser Heinrich:

Upon further deliberation, have it your way, Mandorf.

Edict 6.2: This Edict hereby instructs the Chancellor to have Kaiser Heinrich, reinforced with the full garrison of Rome, attack Pope Accattus so that the Reich may be reconciled more quickly.

I believe that will ease our public order problem, will it not?

Northnovas
03-25-2007, 19:06
Mein Kaiser, Regarding Edict 6.2 may require an amendment to say attack the current Pope and beyond to future office holders until the Kaiser's choice is elected. We do not have enough votes in the College nor enough influence to persuade the other Cardinals to vote for the honourable Otterbach. It may take several elections before we have the true Pope.

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 19:25
Kaiser Heinrich:

The Pope and the Danish Cardinal currently in the preferati are both quite old and in poor health. If the Danish Cardinal dies before the Pope does, then Otterbach will be elevated to the preferati. If the Pope dies before the Danish Cardinal, then I will simply ensure that that Danish Cardinal gets elected.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 19:36
Ease the public order problem? Did you not personally approve Pope Accattus yourself? I see no guarantee that order will be restored even if Cardinal Otterbach becomes Pope. There can be no reconciliation with the Pope until this war with the Papal States is over. As of now, we have no possible way of ending this war unless we give them a province from which to rule. It has been made clear that none of the Reich's provinces will be donated, so accordingly there can be no peace. Cardinal Otterbach will not reconcile us because *ahem* he will find himself at war with us the moment he takes the Papal throne. I fully expect the Reich to remain excommunicated until we capture Jerusalem and give it as a gift to the sitting Pope.

Furthermore, I will not support any legislation of any kind that calls for the slaughter of future Popes. You have caused this war, Kaiser, and you should have to suffer its 'annoyances.'

econ21
03-25-2007, 20:13
Prinz Henry: I welcome Duke Leopold's candidacy - his attitude to the crusade and the Venetian threat to Zagreb has given me cause to believe he will support the noble aim of that endeavour.

However, I wish to inquire what his plans are for the citizens of Venice, should his Household Army take the city. Does he plan to exterminate them as was discussed at the last full Diet session?

GeneralHankerchief
03-25-2007, 22:18
Kaiser Heinrich:

If Cardinal Otterbach does not reconcile us, I believe it will be because of your treatment of... him rather than my actions. He is forever indebted to me. He will not forget that.

Also, my informants have told me of a Bavarian edict proposal in the works that I agree with. Therefore, let me kindly propose it myself in order to free up room:

Edict 6.3: The Reich will contact Sicily as soon as possible and grant them a gift of 200 florins per year for 10 years.

OverKnight
03-25-2007, 22:47
Otto rises to speak:

I will second Edicts 6.2 and 6.3.

It is unfortunate that we take this step, but this new Pope has brazenly attacked Rome. If he had stayed in the countryside preaching hellfire I would say leave him be, but he's perched on a bridge disrupting trade and travel.

The Kaiser's informants are efficient. One reason, I believe, for the Sicilians being excommunicated again was their refusal to abandon their alliance with us. I'm sure we all remember a similar demand to break our's with them. This show of faith must be rewarded and we must keep our southern border stable. Rome will be under enough threats without adding Normans to the mix.


It seems that some in the Diet doubt my sincerity and reasons for going on the Crusade. I fear that my inclusion in this Holy Journey might damage support for it and the candidacy of the Prinz. I will not allow this to happen.

I swear that if Prinz Henry is elected Chancellor, I will resign as Duke of Bavaria. I will be a ritter once again, and will be able to devote myself fully to the Crusade.

I hope this is enough for those calling for a sacrifice of titles and position by Crusaders to swing their votes to Henry. I also hope that those of you among the Diet who feel that I must pay for my actions in the Investiture Crisis will support Henry, so that you may get your wish. He is the best man for the job, and I will stake my title and lands on that fact.

My lords.

Otto sits.

TinCow
03-25-2007, 23:28
I stand with Duke von Kassel. I will put all of my influence behind Prinz Henry for the position of Chancellor. I urge all God-fearing Christians to do the same.

ArchdukeEvan
03-26-2007, 00:57
I ask of the Noble and Rightous Crusaders sevral things...

first... what makes me think that you wont pay more attention to your own endevours more than the Riech's own Problems? How can one... who is not only thousands of miles away... but is also fighting the cursed muslems... truly sacrifice the time to run the Reich?...
Second... would not a Chancller of the Crusade favor the Crusade with more money and troops than back here?... for example... a crusade requirs mercinarys... will not you provide these auxilarys before providing to those at home?... and once in the Holy Land... you will need hundreds of men to force down the Muslums form rising agianst us... more and more men and materials into your vast armys...

that is the problems i feel with a Crusader... he will favor the Crusade over the Reich... and where is the Crusade without the Reich anyways?

Finaly... I ask of you this... What brings you to the belive that a Non-Crusader Chanceler wouldnt help the Reich?... is it because you fear that he will not provide for your needs first?... or is it simply that you need to contral everything that happens in the Nation... from its ionner workings... to its construction... to its largest armys?...

answer these for me... and tell me also how one proposes to comunicate with the Diet on afairs in Italy... if he is in Antioch?

finaly I would like to say that your Crusade is a Noble undertaking... and that if I had any troops of my own I would be riding with you...

Thank you Mien Lords

Kagemusha
03-26-2007, 01:08
Dietrich Von Saxony

"If i may answer to your questions.First i believe that the Chancellor should be here in Germany. Second i think that a crusading chancellor would indeed concentrate on the crusading armies and leave Reich on the second place. Third i dont believe that non crusading Chancellor would be a bad thing at all. As you can see if you look at the list of Crusades. There are many men there from many parts of the Reich,with many opinions how the affairs here in Reich should be handled."

ArchdukeEvan
03-26-2007, 01:10
Sir... respectfully... i ment in the fact that the Prinz's supporters...
I can answer my own questions... i belive...

execpt my apologys for considering the Cursaders as a single body

Kagemusha
03-26-2007, 01:23
Dietrich stands up and replies to the 5th Elector of Austria.

"No offense taken"

After that Dietrich starts reading from a scroll:

"I hereby suggest Charter Amendment 6.4. When a Kaiser or eqvalent of Duke leaves for a crusade. He must appoint an Steward to take care from his lands and duties, while he is on a crusade. A crusader should commit himself fully on his Holy task and leave all politics and Ducal matters including the command of household armies inside the Reich and not to take part on Imperial Diet while crusading. If an count will leave for an crusade, his Duke will take possession of his lands while he crusades.Or If his Duke is not available, a steward acting from Dukes behalf.
When Crusade has reached their goal or dismissed. While returning to Reich the crusaders previous powers and estates will be given back to him when he reaches the area of the Reich."

Dietrich bows and takes his seat among the Franconians.

GeneralHankerchief
03-26-2007, 01:34
Kaiser Heinrich:

I second von Saxony's proposed Charter Amendment, but I believe it is 6.4, not 6.3.