Battle on the river Arius - 209 BC

[abou]

Since TA had done a lot of work on this it would be foolish not to make it right away. It will also make a nice break between all the inevitable Roman battles. If you're curious as to what work he has done, reference this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1472709&postcount=16).

The main reference is from Polybius 10.49 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=10.49). This is a particularly cool battle because we get some insight into Antiochus III's character, whose bravery seems to be unmatched amongst the other Hellenistic rulers; even most soldiers.

Curiously, where Bibracte was entirely an infantry battle this one is dominated by the cavalry of Seleukeia and Baktria.

[The Celt]

Cool! I can't wait!:book: BTW when will we see the battle where Mithridates(The Parthian King, not the Pontic King)defeats the Seleucids? Forgot where it was but I read they whooped ass.:whip:

[abou]

If you can give me a specific battle it is all the better, but I am finding that many battles do not give nearly enough specifics. In fact, it seems that unless Polybius wrote it I don't have much to work with. K_Cossak has been asking a lot about Pontus, but the only battle I found with enough to at least point in the right direction for the Mithradatic wars was a battle of Rome against Armenia.

So yeah, go figure.

[Eduorius]

The Battle of Chaeronea is good too. We dont know the numbers exactly, but we do know what happened.

[abou]

So there seems to be a snag with the use of rivers. Since fords can not be added all I can do is raise the ground above the waterline as a substitute; unfortunately, while units can be placed on this raised ground and the engine can actually recognize it as an area that can be crossed, units simply do not want to move fully across the river. However, the battle seems to take place mostly on one side and I dread to think how the AI would handle the pathfinding and so I think it would be fair not to have a river at all as long as everything else is in place.

[Swebozbozboz]

Maybe put the river just outside of the red line, so it's there, but won't mess up the AI.

[abou]

Unfortunately, it isn't that easy either. I have to find a river on the world map and there aren't any textures or objects that just place a river on the map.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Been pretty busy the last couple of days. Any luck in finding something that could work here? It would be nice if we could figure something out, but I'm woefully ignorant (and likely to remain so) of the battle editor.

I do have something on another battle I've worked up also though. Gonna go try that zama battle first though. :grin:

[abou]

Right now the best I have is just making sure there is a plain and leaving it up to the player to imagining a river just outside the hallowed red line. I think this would actually bring up two major benefits:
1. The AI doesn't pull a dumb move and use the incorrect ford.
2. The AI doesn't arrive on the battlefield with exhausted forces because they tried rushing across the ford.

It's up to you if that is acceptable, TA. Just give me the word and revised forces with the 10,000 Argyraspidai and I can start this weekend.

Edit: I also want to add that even if I find a way to move the river behind the Seleukids, I am afraid of the reinforcing army drowning as it arrives.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hmmm. That really stinks - about the river stuff.

I'm afraid that the battle might not be very interesting given these issues and the large number of elites the seleukids will have with them instead of peltasts (but they are right - I saw another place like paullus mentions where polybius mentions someone carrying some peltastai with him to intimidate someone, which is not too logical if they are just skirmishers :laugh4:). Maybe if the river is just off the main battlefield, and it looks like they've just crossed, then it would work.

Hey, what about if you put a road there - would it make a bridge? That might be better than no ford at all.

[abou]

Well, Argyraspidai are pretty sweet...

As far as the road goes, well, it is as if someone placed the stone underneath the river... so yeah, no bridge.

It might be bad form, but I think it could be fair to shelve this until solutions are found so that other projects can move forward. Sellasia seems like a good challenge as far as the landscape is concerned; might be fun to try -- if only I could read the elevation labels on the link you posted. I'm also debating doing the Battle of Ipsus because it seems so metal.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Did you have to configure your build specially to work on these? Was it hard?

[abou]

Yeah, I basically had to change my build to work as though it were vanilla - sort of like the 0.7x builds of EB.

Was it hard to do? Well, i'm good with computers so it was only tedious and longwinded for me. For a person without the grasp that I have it could be considered hard.

[Eduorius]

I just found the perfect landscape for the battle.

Its a river with its own two fords in an infertile grassland.

Now with the permisson of abou I will try to show how I beat the Artificial Incompetence in rivers.

Ok?

[Eduorius]

Well abou gave me the okay to try to beat the AI and to make my own version of the battle. So here it is and plz comment your toughts about the units involved, the landscape, the difficulty, etc.

http://www.axifile.com?8209049

[abou]

I've talked to Edourius and the plan right now is to use the land he found and re-approach the units used.

I'm trying to recall exactly what I had read in Polybius, but Perseus Project is down right now (dammit those servers suck). From what I remember, Polybius isn't as crystal clear as he could be and that might be because the source he was using was a bit confusing or not as well detailed as he would have wanted. From what I can gather Antiochus rushed across the river with his 2,000 cavalry guard to fight with some sort of detachment of cavalry (forward guard, rear guard, advanced scouts?) from Euthydemus's 10,000 cavalry. It was enough of a fight to keep Antiochus hard pressed until his other forces, the 10,000 Argyraspidai and a few accompanying light troops and cavalry, crossed the river and scarred off the Baktrians. Then Euthydemus with the rest of his cavalry returned and hard fight proceeded.

The thing is, I don't know what to do about the Seleucid forces. It seems like Antiochus took an expeditionary force with him, not a full invasion force. So what does this mean for the number of light troops?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think the arrangement should be somewhat similar to what I posted as a sketch with units here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1472709&postcount=16

I understand the peltastai are probably better armed troops given polybius' use of the term, so that has changed, but Seleukos gets across the river and then should be in a 'tight spot' or at least one where he is just slightly not favored by the odds. From the text, it seems like Seleukos should probably have lost, but he acted very bravely and his men held on long enough for the captain to arrive with his men - the ones it took longer to get there and cross. The baktrians should be almost entirely cavalry, with just some light troops thrown in to accompany them, but not in their most advanced guard, which got their first on horseback (fast).

I think the Baktrian relief army should arrive definitely before the Seleukid relief army if possible to do that. If the player plays as Seluekids, the objective would be not to have to retreat back across the river, but it should be quite difficult. I imagine the Seleukids will win this battle usually, once the reinforcements arrive, but if the player was on the Baktrian side, it would be very challenging to defeat the reinforcements also - only if Seleukos and the advanced men were taken care of quickly could it be done, and then only with micromanaged cavalry tactics. Just my take on it all. :grin:

[Eduorius]

By the way they are Argyraspidai Thorokitai or Argyraspidai phalanx?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't know that we know quite honestly.

[Eduorius]

Abou told me they were phalanx and I was starting to get worried that people would get mad when they saw the super thorokitai. :sweatdrop: