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R'as al Ghul
03-29-2007, 21:35
https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3048/beta8adcopyrg1.jpg

Download here. (http://www.mizus.com/Ras/SamuraiWarlords_beta8.exe) https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5724/kibatainu7.gif

Requirements for install:
To install this mod you need a fresh unmodded version of Medieval:Total War + The Viking Invasion Add-On + The VI patch 2.01. (We've limited experience with the Eras and Gold versions of Medieval that also include Viking Invasion. They're supposed to be the same as the original MTW+VI Add-on. For Single Players these versions should work okay, but Multiplayers may have troubles with their CD-Keys not being recognised by Gamespy.)

How to install:
Download the installer and run it by double-clicking.
(When asked for the install location (see image below), browse to your copy of Medieval:TW/VI that you intend to use.)
(Attention: The installer may take a while to finish. Some people have reported that they thought it had frozen.
This is not the case, it just has a lot of things to do, like deleting unnecessary files.)
Just wait and follow the instructions until it says: "Medieval installation succesfully modified".
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/beta8-installer.gif

After the install you'll have two additional eras: 1. "Samurai Warlords" and 2. "Samurai Wars MP".
You need to scroll down to see them. You'll have Vikings, Early, High, Late, Samurai Warlords and Samurai Wars MP.


---------------------------
Here's the link for the Samurai Warlords patch 8.1 (http://www.mizus.com/Ras/Samurai%20Warlords%20patch%208.1.exe). (222k)
Features:

includes the fix by Techno_Mage_of_Shadows.
deletes all vanilla eras for easier access
features a new Main Menu title, so that people can check if the patch is properly installed.
the unit prod is still called "MP_11_unit_prod", the old will be overwritten by the patch, the stats haven't changed


:bow:

R'as

---------------------------
Non required add-ons:

Get the Sound-Add-on in this thread: Sound Add-on (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100439)
TosaInu has made new large maps for the beta_8.
They can be downloaded here (http://www.mizus.com/files/files/MTW/Maps/SW-maps1.zip)
Puzz3D has made new castles for the beta_8. They can be downloaded here (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Yuuki/SW_castles_2.rar)
For information on how to use them see this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1607521&postcount=194).

============Edit by drone===================
Updated links:
SW Beta 8 (https://forums.totalwar.org/mizu/mizus/files/files/MTW/Stats/SamWars-beta8.zip)
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Beta 8 Sound (https://forums.totalwar.org/mizu/mizus/files/files/MTW/Stats/SamWars.beta8.Sound.Add-On.exe)
SW Maps1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/mizu/mizus/files/files/MTW/Maps/SW-maps1.zip)
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========================================

R'as al Ghul
03-29-2007, 22:49
Samurai Warlords beta_8 features:

Common features:
1) completely self contained overwrite modification for vanilla Medieval:TW / Viking Invasion v2.01,
that transforms your copy of Medieval:TW into a Shogun-style game.
(Disclaimer: The original eras of Medieval won't work properly after install, How to make a second install of Medival:TW (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1476918&postcount=86))
2) Shogun-style frontend files
3) frontend Music from Shogun:TW demo (only 1 file so far)
4) automatic removal of all mtw/vi maps
5) includes the Shogun:TW soundswapper by TosaInu
6) Multiple language version support (all versions are changed to English)

Single player campaign features:
1) Compete with 24 japanese Clans for the domination of the 60 provinces of Japan to gain the title of Shogun.
2) Original Shogun:TW campaign map
3) improved/changed clans' starting positions
4) limited command stars for starting Generals and heroes
5) limited command stars given by titles
6) changed the mercenary attractor (to Teahouse) and limited the number of mercenaries
7) added more historical samurai names
8) Single player Battlemaps:

a) original Shogun:TW textures
b) impassable terrain corrected on all maps
c) strengthened castles with more defending units starting inside the castle
d) Japanese map models (Pagodas, Castles, Temples, etc)

Single player campaign map:

https://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6821/beta8factionmaptf2.jpg



Multiplayer features:
1) separated unit stats from single player
2) near 30 clans to choose from
3) separation of large and small maps in the map list
4) new exclusive Multiplayer maps

a) original Shogun:TW textures
b) Japanese map models (Pagodas, Castles, Temples, etc)
5) improved/ new animations for infantry and cavalry
6) stable MP gameplay with 8.1


Known minor issues:
- campmap pieces' bases need to be changed again, due to using secondary colours
- map info pics are showing wrong (medieval) terrain
- campmap piece for castle_4 is too large
- Takeda mini flag shows too much transparent
- "Wooded Roads" is actually a small map but filed under large
- I broke the large map "Sacred Ground" :(

(Fix: Rename \Savemaps\Sacred Ground fl.jjm to \Savemaps\Sacred Ground.jjm to make it usable
- Geisha is included but based on Inquisitor - we don't know yet what to do with her

How to install:
Download the installer and run it by double-clicking.
(Attention: The installer may take a while to finish. Some people have reported that they thought it had frozen.
This is not the case, it just has a lot of things to do, like deleting unnecessary files.)
Just follow the instructions and wait until it says: "Medieval installation successfully modified".


:bow:

Watch this space for any further information.

Tomisama
03-30-2007, 03:13
Great R'as, downloading now :grin:

Does the install process clean out the map folder (there was some talk about that I think)?

:charge:

Puzz3D
03-30-2007, 03:38
Yes it deletes all the maps before installing the new ones.

barocca
03-30-2007, 07:38
woohoo!!!!

R'as al Ghul
03-30-2007, 09:25
I've added a preliminary feature list.

R'as

Raz
03-30-2007, 13:11
Will it be like old betas, you know, with new Startpos and prod files etc?
Or overwrite the old ones and make saved games obsolete? Ok, so I "tweaked" a few things in previous versions... :sweatdrop:

Puzz3D
03-30-2007, 13:35
Will it be like old betas, you know, with new Startpos and prod files etc? Or overwrite the old ones and make saved games obsolete?
I don't know about the prod file, but there is a new Startpos file. You could just take the maps and map textures from beta8, put them into beta7 and continue your beta7 campaign. To do that:

1. Optionally, you can delete all the maps in \Savemaps and \Battle\Maps in the beta7
2. Copy/overwrite the maps from those folders in beta8 to the same folders in beta7
3. Copy/overwrite \Textures\Ground\Lush and its \Winter subfolder from beta8 to beta7
4. Copy/overwrite the file \Models\MODELDAMAGE.TXT from beta8 to beta7

R'as al Ghul
03-30-2007, 13:38
Will it be like old betas, you know, with new Startpos and prod files etc?
Or overwrite the old ones and make saved games obsolete? Ok, so I "tweaked" a few things in previous versions... :sweatdrop:

beta_8 has a new startpos, but the prod files from beta_7 will be overwritten.
beta_5 files remain unchanged.
For you this means that your savegames may work. I cannot guarantee it.
beta_8 is not intended to be installed over old versions.
You can do it, but you'll only get limited support for that way from me.

R'as

Raz
03-30-2007, 13:49
Thanks for the fast reply you two. I'll keep that information in mind.

drone
03-30-2007, 15:57
Excellent. :2thumbsup:

I don't have (yet) STW unfortunately, so I'm assuming I will get MTW music/voices, right? Other than killing the atmosphere, are there any other problems with this?

R'as al Ghul
03-30-2007, 17:50
I don't have (yet) STW unfortunately, so I'm assuming I will get MTW music/voices, right? Other than killing the atmosphere, are there any other problems with this?

Yes, for the time being you keep the voices and music from MTW, apart from the one frontend file I inserted. There're no problems using those.

I'm working on a sound add-on.

R'as al Ghul
03-31-2007, 18:01
I've written a PM to CA, asking for permission to use the sound and music files.
A lot of what we need is already in the freely available Shogun demo.
Alas, not the battle event voice files.

R'as

Noir
03-31-2007, 21:16
" To become Shogun will require to win battles with the mind as well as the sword; Now is your time: Let Total War Begin! "

Congratulations!

:karate:

LestaT
04-02-2007, 22:06
Now.. where my MTW and VI cd's...... :2thumbsup:

Bonfire
04-19-2007, 18:06
im downloading this file cause my total war ERA's copy of Shogun total war is pissing me off. i delete whole bunch of stuff of my c drive to get it to 23 used giga bytes out of 67...

and it still didn't fix my problem so im assuming its the era's instalation since the last time i had STW it came with 2 disk. so im assuming there is data missing since the total war:ERAs are all gold edditions

i know for a faq my comp can handle STW cause i been playing medeval total war along with viking expansion no problems.

so i see that 2.01 of MTW: viking expansion works with this mod thats fine i don't mind checking out this mod.

hopfuly it will let me use work sundays so i cna get to use kenasi sooner.

Gaius Baltar
04-19-2007, 22:54
In terms of installation should I have MTW AND VI installed?

barocca
04-19-2007, 23:04
yes, both MTW and VI

Gaius Baltar
04-19-2007, 23:48
I performed a clean MTW/VI install, then the Samuari Warlords. Game opens fine, but when I go to campaign choices it still looks like MTW choices. I tried and early and its in the MTW map.

But Warlord sounds and music.

Did I miss a step somewhere?

barocca
04-20-2007, 00:06
scroll down, the shogun campaigns appear below the mtw campaigns,

in the next release (i hope) all those old mtw campaigns will be gone

Gaius Baltar
04-20-2007, 00:07
Ok, well, I just had to scroll down..hmmm

Started a Uesugi campaign. ALready lost Sado, but have a good force and alliances on the mainland.

Gaius Baltar
04-20-2007, 01:13
Ok, well, I just had to scroll down..hmmm

Started a Uesugi campaign. ALready lost Sado, but have a good force and alliances on the mainland.

Well, some more Uesugi reports.

I hired some mercs and retook Sado. But the Mercs cant leave the island, though I have a ship on the water and other units can come and go.

The Shiba clan is refered to as Mugami several times.
:egypt:

barocca
04-20-2007, 04:36
the mercs cannot leave till you build a port

clan names - (a bug) - i just went looking and i think i found the problem,
all fixed (i hope) for next release...

:-) keep those reports coming
(the ships appearing in wrong seas i have fixed for the next build too)

cheers
B.

R'as al Ghul
04-20-2007, 07:44
(the ships appearing in wrong seas i have fixed for the next build too)

cheers
B.

What about the port fixes I made? Didn't they make it into this version?
I fixed at least two ports, can't remember which now.

barocca
04-20-2007, 13:22
yes, i saw some had been fixed between versions,
i found (and fixed)(i hope) all the others
(mostly between Tosa and Dewa - all those little bays...)

Bonfire
04-20-2007, 15:47
just a small request but you think you can add more Elite units like the kenasi is for the sword dojo but can you add an elite unit for each of the dojos ALL BUT THE ARCHERY OF COARSE.so liek the kenasi there are elite unit for spear dojo-horse-monk-ninja-nvm ninja ounce ( i have faith) you guys finish the editing of the Geisha.

when you guys can think you can do some work on the ship yard's and give more opitons as for for ships. so there is an elite ship maybe a kamikaze ship otion with gunpower building like the trading post and shipyard enables the kamikaze ships (its how they faught of the golden horde) i mean i would love to get rid of the 20-30 diffrent faction ships that are out there need a better method then just one type of ship.:book:

Puzz3D
04-20-2007, 16:41
just a small request but you think you can add more Elite units like the kenasi is for the sword dojo but can you add an elite unit for each of the dojos ALL BUT THE ARCHERY OF COARSE.so liek the kenasi there are elite unit for spear dojo-horse-monk-ninja-nvm ninja ounce ( i have faith) you guys finish the editing of the Geisha.
The kensai is already out of control. I don't know if it can be brought into line with the other unit types.

My thinking is that the player should not be able to overcome marked economic deficiency through battlefield tactics. Yes, you should be able to overcome a certan degree of economic deficiency, but not so much as to make the economic aspect irrelevent. There is a chance that elite units will produce lopsided victories. The ashigaru units should remain effective throughout the Sengoku Period. ShingenMitch is well studied in military history, and he once made the point that historically veteran units were only about 2x better than green units. We already far exceed that in this game with the standard 60 man units.

barocca
04-20-2007, 22:28
The kensai is already out of control. the suggestion to make kensai slower to earn upgrades may alleviate this?
i worry about making kensai too vulnerable to missile weapons if we lower his armour,
and BFN missiles ignore armour?
making BFN the counter to an uber Kensai...
perhaps we should make a very small BFN unit as a merc???
so player who cannot get BFN through tech level can hire one???
(this unit would have one goal and needs to be designed for that goal
- assassinate uber kensai on the battlefield using their missiles, but be vulnerable to everything else so they dont become a game winner)



ShingenMitch is well studied in military history, and he once made the point that historically veteran units were only about 2x better than green units. We already far exceed that in this game with the standard 60 man units. perhaps we need to make it harder to level up?

Q - what effect does discipline REALLY have?
perhaps we can make low end dojo's upgrade discipline and only upgrade valour at top end of scale??

B.

Bonfire
04-21-2007, 04:50
@ Barroca yes yes good idea a merc unit to conunter only the kenasi but sucks VS all others.

UM R'as al Ghul i spent the last 4 hours editing the voices and sounds of the specific spot to have it totaly shogun total war sound with.

mongol music surprise during credits. if oyu want the file. i can give it to you to host it or put in your new beta. or have it seperate

Bonfire
04-21-2007, 05:12
i could host it my self but i think R'as al Ghul but utlmatly its up to you guys if oyu want it or not. the voice and music edits is roughly 150 MB rar

Puzz3D
04-21-2007, 08:31
making BFN the counter to an uber Kensai...
Reducing the kensai's speed so that it's slower than the BN will help the BN be an anti-kensai unit. That will leave the BN as the fastest infantry unit. Cavalry is a good counter to BN.



Q - what effect does discipline REALLY have?
It increases unit cohesion. I don't know if it does anything more than that.

R'as al Ghul
04-21-2007, 08:50
Thanks for the offer, Bonfire. You may have missed this but there's a soundswapper tool included in the download. Also we've already asked CA to give permission to use the sounds. If they allow it I'll upload a sound installer that's already as good as finished.


UM R'as al Ghul i spent the last 4 hours editing the voices and sounds of the specific spot to have it totaly shogun total war sound with.

mongol music surprise during credits. if oyu want the file. i can give it to you to host it or put in your new beta. or have it seperate

Bonfire
04-21-2007, 09:13
i could host it my self but i think R'as al Ghul but utlmatly its up to you guys if oyu want it or not. the voice and music edits is roughly 150 MB rar

I geus i just mised the origonal. what voices and sound's are oyu gonna used ra's

R'as al Ghul
04-21-2007, 10:15
We want to use the original STW files.

KafirChobee
04-21-2007, 17:58
Downloaded it (took like 4 hours), tried to play it and it locked up because the program tries to go to the internet and my security system asks if it is ok - but, I can't get to it because of overlays in the program.

It starts as purely a Samurai game. So maybe I installed it wrong, but if not to MTW-VI? Then to what?
Guess, I will just delete it.:embarassed:

Bonfire
04-21-2007, 18:10
@KafirChobee

IT GOES LIKE THIS BRO..

MTW INSTALLED

then you install vikings.

then you patch it to. 2.01

then you install the mod.
--------------------------

@Ra's when i took a look at the sound files. yesterday i saw that all the factions are orthadox and that there voice is russian folder.

unless you put some arab or latin can you get the diffrent type of voice's..

the sound file i got. is already finish it sounds just like the voice the only diffreance is that the russian voice folder has the deep general speak.

if you want we could pick the 3 diffrent type of voice and put one in latin one in arab and one in russian and have the voice type overwrite the orignal files it how i did it. but the file would be bigger if you did that..

me byt doing the music-voices for the mod the way it is now. came to 150 megs. if we included the 2 more voice settings we would need to include the 2 more music settings even though they would be the same as the current one i would have but thats still all in total 450 megs

CBR
04-21-2007, 18:12
Hey Kafir. If it starts up then you installed it correctly. You should be able to check your firewall and allow the new MTW/VI exe.


CBR

Bonfire
04-21-2007, 18:19
We want to use the original STW files.

when you say the orignal do oyu mean not just one type of voice. but all 5.

Gaius Baltar
04-23-2007, 10:16
the mercs cannot leave till you build a port

There IS a port. Other regular units come and go.


My Uesugi campiagn,

Taking on Takeada. When I autocalculate battles, I do well. When I go to the battlemap, most of my units route on contact (hard). Very frustrating.

R'as al Ghul
04-23-2007, 11:00
My Uesugi campiagn,

Taking on Takeada. When I autocalculate battles, I do well. When I go to the battlemap, most of my units route on contact (hard). Very frustrating.

Welcome Gaius,

tactics are razorsharp in this game. You've to pay close attention to the morale of your units. Also, in hard you give the AI an advantage. Maybe try normal difficulty first.

Puzz3D
04-23-2007, 12:07
There IS a port. Other regular units come and go.


My Uesugi campiagn,

Taking on Takeada. When I autocalculate battles, I do well. When I go to the battlemap, most of my units route on contact (hard). Very frustrating.
Check you general's vices and virtues. If he has the "coward" trait, his army gets -9 morale. There are also other traits that gives a morale penalty to the army. This morale bonus or penalty from the general doesn't depend on how many command stars a general has. It could be that we have to raise the basic morale of the units.

Puzz3D
04-24-2007, 18:44
Because of their high maintenance cost I've taken to disbanding hatamoto units that do not contain an heir. I got rid of 5 of them for a savings of 750 koku per year.

barocca
04-24-2007, 20:31
Because of their high maintenance cost ......
Is the upkeep cost too high?

Noir
04-24-2007, 20:57
Getting expensive prince units (effectively without its will) has always been a problem for the AI factions in my experience with MTW. Reducing it to a minimum and makingsuch units non-recruitable does seem to help.

barocca
04-24-2007, 21:53
The Hatamoto unit we designed and created for the mod works quite well,
the AI employs them effectively on the battlefield, and does not seem to bankrupt itself having too many.

They are recruitable because we want to be able to replenish the heirs unit after a battle.

If we reduce upkeep too much the AI may make too many.
B.

Noir
04-24-2007, 23:01
Originally Posted by Barocca
The Hatamoto unit we designed and created for the mod works quite well,
the AI employs them effectively on the battlefield, and does not seem to bankrupt itself having too many.

They are recruitable because we want to be able to replenish the heirs unit after a battle.

If we reduce upkeep too much the AI may make too many.
B.

The unit works quite well both in SP and MP, i completely agree, and i enjoy using them. They also do not account for bankrupting the AI in SWs, but they are a burden in certain situations.

Making them non-recruitable is a simple trick in order to rid of the issue of maintenance costs entirely. However it does indeed raise the issue of retraining them putting the whole thing into a vicious circle, design wise.

Another way to reduce the AI soft spot for building them as they are cheap in my experience, would be to drop its preferance value for the AI factions, but that needs much of playteting that is not worth it overall as the campaign works well and army compositions are the best i've experienced so far in TW.

Many thanks

Noir

Puzz3D
04-25-2007, 12:26
Is the upkeep cost too high?At a cost of 1200, I doubt the AI buys hatamoto units. I certainly don't. The upkeep is 150 which seems high since upkeep for a full 60 man cav unit is 120. I'm not sure what purpose the high upkeep on hatamoto serves.

barocca
04-25-2007, 13:10
...so long ago we made them i dont recall the rational for making them so expensive,
i think it was to stop humans using them as game winners - IIRC they were once muchstronger than they are now.

drop it to 100? and see what happens?

R'as al Ghul
04-25-2007, 14:22
At a cost of 1200, I doubt the AI buys hatamoto units. I certainly don't. The upkeep is 150 which seems high since upkeep for a full 60 man cav unit is 120. I'm not sure what purpose the high upkeep on hatamoto serves.
In one of the previous versions the AI loved to build Hatamoto. Their upkeep was lower than for normal Cav while their combat abilities aren't that much lower, especially when valoured up.
It was my intention to limit the number of non-royal Hatamoto units. I may have gone too far with the upkeep. You could say it reflects their status as most important samurai a daimyo can have.
I think we need to decrease the upkeep and level it with other cav. I'd like to have more feedback, though.
Also, I've increased more than the hatamoto upkeep costs. I've changed all prices for all SP units. This is all open to discussion as far as I'm concerned.
We also need to think about the provinces' income in relation to upkeep cost.
If the middle factions like Amako etc. can't field proper armies because of low income, it should be adjusted.

BTW, the Kensai has considerably higher upkeep cost than in previous versions and yet the AI loves to build them as I hear. Or was it just the valour it gains that is a problem?

If anyone has any constructive feedback on army composition, upkeep etc. I'd love to hear it.

Noir
04-25-2007, 16:46
I treated this problem in my home mod of MedMod IV the following way and it seemed to work:

1. Decreased the maint. cost of bodyguards to a minimum (balancing however the extra money and so troops the AI will get as such a surplus can make him overaggressive to his demise)
2. Made the bodyguard unit recruitable in only 1 homeland per faction (for Takeda may be kai for example and for Oda Owari)
2. Increase their build time to 2 turns
3. Raise their training cost to something very high, i think the present value will do.
4. Decrease the Ai preference value to 75 for all AI personalities.

This seems to have worked very well. The reasoning behind it is to give to the player a limited chance to retrain his bodyguards (as the AI never can) without though being convenient to do so or overproduce them due to the low maintanance cost (hence the high training and 2 turns that puts a bump in the training flow). The AI of MTW seems to build them reasonably when at 75 preference. A lower value may also be tried if playtesting indicates that he does more than he should with 75.

Two other points i'd like to mention are:

1. The very productive Dewa and Mutsu provinces, that account for campaign winners when combined with the edge map effect. There is a clear strategy: take Echigo, then take Dewa & Mutsu and you are way overcomfortable with money/defensibility/territorial robustness to go for Shogun.
2. A rebelliousness of 2 for all provinces rather than 0 as it stands will account for more slowly progressing campaigns and diffculty to expand. Not that its easy as it stands, so please consider this carefully.

I should mention that point 1 has been brought up by my person before (apologies for that).

Many Thanks

Noir

Puzz3D
04-25-2007, 17:47
Does the upkeep cost affect what units the AI trains?

Noir
04-25-2007, 17:52
I have a feeling that the initial cost is more of a factor for that.

Upkeep costs do affect the total number of men/units the AI can field though relative to its income.

Noir

Puzz3D
04-25-2007, 21:07
Upkeep costs do affect the total number of men/units the AI can field though relative to its income.
What I'm concerned about is that the player may be able to gain too much of an advantage over the AI by disbanding hatamoto units and replacing them with more effective, lower maintenance units. With that in mind, maybe an upkeep of 90 would be more in line with their capability considering that they are not as effective as NC, YC or HC due to the small size of the unit. I thought the purchase cost of NC, YC and HC should be increased somewhat based on its effectiveness, but maybe that will cause the AI to train less cav.

Puzz3D
04-25-2007, 23:43
Two other points i'd like to mention are:

1. The very productive Dewa and Mutsu provinces, that account for campaign winners when combined with the edge map effect. There is a clear strategy: take Echigo, then take Dewa & Mutsu and you are way overcomfortable with money/defensibility/territorial robustness to go for Shogun.
Maybe we could get a more effective distribution of province income using a topological analysis. The basic province income could be related to the number of bordering provinces. The AI is more apt to invade rich provinces, and these would offer more avenues of attack. A redistribution of starting positions may then be needed to maintain initial faction balance. I would say rich provinces should not be left vacant because the resulting land grab will upset the initial faction balance.


2. A rebelliousness of 2 for all provinces rather than 0 as it stands will account for more slowly progressing campaigns and diffculty to expand. Not that its easy as it stands, so please consider this carefully.
At least vacant provinces should have a tendency to rebel.

[GG]Lord Ashram
04-26-2007, 03:51
Hey!

I really would like to try your mod, but for some reason it crashes when I install.

I download the installer and double click the exe.

It unpacks and then asks where I want it to install.

I give it a destination folder (actually not quite a clean MTW/VI install, is that the problem?)

After I click install, it freezes up.

Any advice? I am dying to play it!:)

barocca
04-26-2007, 04:40
the installer actually removes some files before it installs,
if it cannot find those files it will chuck a tantrum and crash
B.

R'as al Ghul
04-26-2007, 10:51
Lord Ashram']After I click install, it freezes up.

Any advice? I am dying to play it!:)

As barocca said, the installer looks for the folder battle/maps to delete the old MTW maps. If it can't find that folder it won't install. It's a kind of failsafe to prevent people from installing in the wrong directory.

R'as

R'as al Ghul
04-26-2007, 10:58
Maybe we could get a more effective distribution of province income using a topological analysis. The basic province income could be related to the number of bordering provinces. The AI is more apt to invade rich provinces, and these would offer more avenues of attack. A redistribution of starting positions may then be needed to maintain initial faction balance. I would say rich provinces should not be left vacant because the resulting land grab will upset the initial faction balance.


That's a good idea. I'll try to post a map. Makes it easier to discuss.

Puzz3D
04-26-2007, 13:37
That's a good idea. I'll try to post a map. Makes it easier to discuss.
Number of neighbors and estimated income of each province:

INCOME - "These numbers give as close as possible the correct incomes at normal difficulty and normal taxation. I do not understand the formula used to calculate/translate these numbers into the figures you will see as province income in game. I think there is a + or - attatched to terrain types as well as a numerical formula." barocca - november 2003


Income = 335 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_01" Satsuma
Income = 325 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_02" Osumi
Income = 335 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_03" Higo
Income = 760 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_04" Hizen
Income = 325 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_05" Hyuga
Income = 594 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_06" Chikugo
Income = 566 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_07" Chikuzen
Income = 428 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_08" Buzen
Income = 224 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_09" Bungo
Income = 260 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_10" Nagato
Income = 408 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_11" Iyo
Income = 260 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_12" Suo
Income = 455 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_13" Tosa
Income = 284 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_14" Aki
Income = 224 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_15" Iwami
Income = 184 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_16" Bingo
Income = 270 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_17" Izumo
Income = 705 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_18" Sanuki
Income = 335 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_19" Awa
Income = 214 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_20" Bitchu
Income = 195 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_21" Hoki
Income = 353 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_22" Bizen
Income = 233 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_23" Mimasaka
Income = 112 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_24" Awaji
Income = 408 Neighbours = 7 "ID_LANDREG_25" Harima
Income = 233 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_26" Inaba
Income = 500 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_27" Kii
Income = 177 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_28" Tajima
Income = 408 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_29" Kawachi
Income = 408 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_30" Tamba
Income = 381 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_31" Yamato
Income = 280 Neighbours = 6 "ID_LANDREG_32" Yamashiro
Income = 224 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_33" Iga
Income = 816 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_34" Ise
Income = 195 Neighbours = 6 "ID_LANDREG_35" Wakasa
Income = 436 Neighbours = 6 "ID_LANDREG_36" Omi
Income =1202 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_37" Owari
Income = 482 Neighbours = 7 "ID_LANDREG_38" Mino
Income = 521 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_39" Echizen
Income = 372 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_40" Kaga
Income = 482 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_41" Mikawa
Income = 224 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_42" Hida
Income = 298 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_43" Totomi
Income = 187 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_44" Noto
Income = 630 Neighbours =10 "ID_LANDREG_45" Shinano
Income = 408 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_46" Etchu
Income = 179 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_47" Suruga
Income = 138 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_48" Izu
Income = 358 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_49" Kai
Income = 836 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_50" Sagami
Income =1185 Neighbours = 6 "ID_LANDREG_51" Musashi
Income = 760 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_52" Kozuke
Income = 353 Neighbours = 1 "ID_LANDREG_53" Kazusa
Income = 537 Neighbours = 4 "ID_LANDREG_54" Shimosa
Income = 723 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_55" Etchigo
Income = 390 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_56" Shimotsuke
Income = 287 Neighbours = 0 "ID_LANDREG_57" Sado
Income =1149 Neighbours = 3 "ID_LANDREG_58" Hitachi
Income =1110 Neighbours = 5 "ID_LANDREG_59" Mutsu
Income = 741 Neighbours = 2 "ID_LANDREG_60" Dewa

R'as al Ghul
04-26-2007, 14:32
https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8908/maptexah9.jpg

Noir
04-26-2007, 15:01
The map, (as its easy to confirm by inspection) has most internal provinces (border all around) at Northern Japan (east end as we see it).

These are: Shinano,Hida,Kozuke,Shimotsuke,Kai.

The other two Mino and Omi, are closer to kinki (central Japan area).

By inspection (and bitter STW experience), Hida is awfully underpowered compared to Dewa and Mutsu for example.

There are three very strong "edges" that give cookie cutter strategies:

1.The Musashi/Shimosa(/Hitachi) combo
2.The Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo combo
3.The Hizen,Chikugo,Chikuzen combo

By combos it is meant that they all act as a large "blob", that is very defensible as the total number of bordering provinces and directions of rival expansion is very restricted due to Japan being a squashed ellipsoid. All three combos are at or very close to the very ends of the ellipsoidal map.

All three of them are strengthened with the presence of a river (in case of 1. passes from two provinces). In addition the combos 1. & 2. are very close geographically. So, its easy for one that dominates in one to get the other quickly too.

The rest of the map and incomes' distribution is fine, i would say.

I would redistribute wealth from some of the combo provinces to internal/stagnating provinces (like Osumi/Hida/Etchizen) and also take out the river battle from certain invading directions at least. River provinces that also have considerable wealth,like Musashi, Echigo and Chikuzen are way to easy "safe-standard" points of expansion all the more as they have other rich lands around them.

Rivers may be present as a decor in battles or even partly or with crossing points (if feasible/possible).Another way would be to add a river map in between other non-river maps in the library for that province and so get a river battle randmly once in a while.

Many thanks

Noir

Puzz3D
04-26-2007, 15:38
Total income for all of Japan = 26626
Total borders for all provinces = 244
Average per border = 109

Since Sado has no land borders you could make 109 a base income for all provinces. This is close to the existing minimum income of 112 for Awajii. If desired, making the base value larger would reduce the difference in income between provinces.

total income - total provinces * base = amount to be scaled by number of borders
26626 - 60 * 109 = 20086

amount/total borders = income per border
20086/244 = 82

province income = borders * 82 + 109

The richest province would be Shinano with an income of 929.

average income = average borders * income per border + 109 = (244/60) * 82 + 109 = 442

Puzz3D
04-26-2007, 16:08
By inspection (and bitter STW experience), Hida is awfully underpowered compared to Dewa and Mutsu for example.
Using the topographic method:

Hida = 519
Dewa = 273
Mutsu = 519




There are three very strong "edges" that give cookie cutter strategies:

1.The Musashi/Shimosa(/Hitachi) combo
2.The Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo combo
3.The Hizen,Chikugo,Chikuzen combo

Under the topograhic system:

1. Musashi 601 + Shimosa 437 + Hitachi 355 = 1393
2. Dewa 273 + Mutsu 519 + Echigo 519 = 1311
3. Hizen 273 + Chikugo 437 + Chikuzen 437 = 1147

Under the beta 8 incomes they are:

1. Musashi 1185 + Shimosa 537 + Hitachi 1149 = 2871
2. Dewa 741 + Mutsu 1110 + Echigo 723 = 2574
3. Hizen 760 + Chikugo 594 + Chikuzen 566 = 1920

Noir
04-26-2007, 16:09
Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Total income for all of Japan = 26626
Total borders for all provinces = 244
Average per border = 109

Since Sado has no land borders you could make 109 a base income for all provinces. This is close to the existing minimum income of 112 for Awajii. If desired, making the base value larger would reduce the difference in income between provinces.

total income - total provinces * base = amount to be scaled by number of borders
26626 - 60 * 109 = 20086

amount/total borders = income per border
20086/244 = 82

province income = borders * 82 + 109

The richest province would be Shinano with an income of 929.

average income = average borders * income per border + 109 = (244/60) * 82 + 109 = 442

The above calculation is towards the right direction. Local variation and cross reference with historical reality should also be present IMO.

A variant of the above result can be inputed for playtesting(?)

Also the effects of rich provinces concentration (and the defensibility of that) need to be taken into account in income distribution as the above calculation is an estimation based on averages and does not (to my understanding) account for such local effects (that might deviate the results from the averages).


Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Using the topographic method:

Hida = 519
Dewa = 273
Mutsu = 519

Under the topograhic system:

1. Musashi 601 + Shimosa 437 + Hitachi 355 = 1393
2. Dewa 273 + Mutsu 519 + Echigo 519 = 1311
3. Hizen 273 + Chikugo 437 + Chikuzen 437 = 1147

Under the beta 8 incomes they are:

1. Musashi 1185 + Shimosa 537 + Hitachi 1149 = 2871
2. Dewa 741 + Mutsu 1110 + Echigo 723 = 2574
3. Hizen 760 + Chikugo 594 + Chikuzen 566 = 1920

It definitely looks right


Many Thanks

Noir

[GG]Lord Ashram
04-26-2007, 16:34
Ahhh nuts. Oh well. Can I ask, is there a way just to unpack it and replace all the required files without using an installer?

Thanks,

LA

Puzz3D
04-26-2007, 18:35
Lord Ashram']Ahhh nuts. Oh well. Can I ask, is there a way just to unpack it and replace all the required files without using an installer?
I looked for the unpacked files, but can't find them anywhere on the disk drive. However, they are definitely somewhere on the drive.

The mod won't work anyway unless you install it to an unmodified mtw/vi v2.01.

R'as al Ghul
04-26-2007, 19:49
Why would you want to unpack it, Lord Ashram?

The files are unpacked to a temporary folder which is deleted after the install.
This folder is either (temporarily) located in "Windows/Temp" or "Documents and Settings/your account/temp". You would have to unzip and then ignore the second install window while you find the folder and copy it to somewhere else. Then abort the installer.

Puzz3D
04-26-2007, 20:55
Also the effects of rich provinces concentration (and the defensibility of that) need to be taken into account in income distribution as the above calculation is an estimation based on averages and does not (to my understanding) account for such local effects (that might deviate the results from the averages).
Defensability is inversely related to the number of bordering provinces which is the idea behind relating income to the number of borders. This doesn't take into account rivers which are highly defensable.

The provinces are listed left to right from 01 to 60, so we can see how much income areas of the map will provide by dividing it into say 10 sections of 6 provinces each.

Topographic system:
Section 1 (01 to 06) 19 borders = 2212
Section 2 (07 to 12) 21 borders = 2376
Section 3 (13 to 18) 22 borders = 2458
Section 4 (19 to 24) 23 borders = 2540
Section 5 (25 to 30) 28 borders = 2950
Section 6 (31 to 36) 32 borders = 3278
Section 7 (37 to 42) 28 borders = 2950
Section 8 (43 to 48) 27 borders = 2868
Section 9 (49 to 54) 24 borders = 1968
Section 10 (55 to 60) 20 borders = 2294

There is definitley a tapering off of income at each end of the map.
There is an increase in income over the fatter part of the map from sections 5 to 8.
Section 6, the richest, includes Yamato, Yamashiro, Iga, Ise, Wakasa and Omi.

Dropping the first and last 3 provinces, we can get a set of 9 samples that fall between the previous set.

Topographic system:
Section 1.5 (04 to 09) 22 borders = 2458
Section 2.5 (10 to 15) 19 borders = 2212
Section 3.5 (16 to 21) 24 borders = 2622
Section 4.5 (22 to 27) 25 borders = 2704
Section 5.5 (28 to 33) 29 borders = 3032
Section 6.5 (34 to 39) 32 borders = 3278
Section 7.5 (40 to 45) 28 borders = 2950
Section 8.5 (46 to 51) 26 borders = 2786
Section 9.5 (52 to 57) 20 borders = 2294

Section 6.5, the richest, includes Ise, Wakasa, Omi, Owari, Mino and Echizen.

Dividing the map in 3rds gives:

Topographic system:
Section 1 (01 to 20) 69 borders = 8162
Section 2 (21 to 40) 95 borders = 10050
Section 3 (41 to 60) 80 borders = 8820

Beta 8 system:
Section 1 (01 to 20) = 7491
Section 2 (21 to 40) = 7936
Section 3 (41 to 60) = 10975

Dividing the map in half gives:

Topographic system:
Section 1 (01 to 30) 113 borders = 12536
Section 2 (31 to 60) 131 borders = 14012

Beta 8 system:
Section 1 (01 to 30) = 10518
Section 2 (31 to 60) = 15884

barocca
04-26-2007, 22:09
just a quick note, the Kanto Plains was the richest region in Japan
dont hamstring history too much.

left on auto run on my original setup the area does not generate more than 50% campaign winners
(i do not know what it does at the moment - would require testing
B.

Noir
04-26-2007, 23:21
Originally posted by Puzz3D
Defensability is inversely related to the number of bordering provinces which is the idea behind relating income to the number of borders. This doesn't take into account rivers which are highly defensable.

It also does not take into account provinces that give clear high ground to the defenders like for example Shinano. The number of borders accounts IMO for "invasibility" and to territorial robustness - that is the holder has an advantage if he holds 50% of bordering provinces of an internal province like Shinano (as he can "cover" his territories with a single stack there). His advantage however is turned to a disadvantage if he holds apprx less than 50% of the bordering provinces as now he is susceptible to attack from way more than one directions/factions. In the first case economical territorial robustness is ensured and in the second it is uneconomical and even risky.


Originally posted by Barocca
left on auto run on my original setup the area does not generate more than 50% campaign winners

My original concern was not so much for the AI factions but for the player (there is a clear line of conquest that leads to victory hence predictability), although i've seen a fair set of AI winners coming from holding Tohoku (Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo) and then the Kanto.


Originally posted by Puzz3D
There is definitely a tapering off of income at each end of the map.
There is an increase in income over the fatter part of the map from sections 5 to 8.

Which is what i meant by local effects. Concentration of rich provinces in a patch at the fat part of the map is potentially condemning factions at the two ends, and thus again gives a "winning" spot. An alternative is after the initial redistribution based on borders, to create income nuclei (represented by a single province) in every distinct geographical department so that a growing power from any point has equal chances to develop. I say "represented by a single province" and i furthemore suggest that these are not at edges so they can be more openly contested by neighbouring factions.

Essentially this reminds me of the difference between average mechanical stress and true stress whithin a solid prism subject to a tensile (pulling) force F. In theory stress = F/A, force over the prism's cross sectional area. This implies a uniform distribution across the section as well as longitudinally and it is true for a perfectly uniform and homogenious elastic body.

However in reality the true stress distribution is altered by tiny imperfections whithin the material as microcracks that account for local stress concentrations. These may be so large as to give premature failures by the way.

In our case, i think the calculation based on borders does not account for the geometric shape of the map (essentially the spatial distribution and relationship between the borders), so after redistributing incomes based on it, creating other blobbing/stagnating points remains as a possibility.

So, if Hida/Shinano/Mino/Kozuke/Shimotsuke come as the richest (as they share the most borders) they may get the wealth with a "not-so wealthy province" in between them to avoid blobbing winning points.

Similarly Kinki (Central Japan), Chugoku (Hiroshima area/peninsula), Shikoku and Kyushu (southern most islands - western most as we see the map) may be worked in the same principle.


Originally posted by Barocca
the Kanto Plains was the richest region in Japan
dont hamstring history too much.
Indeed the Kanto (mainly Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami?) was the richest part with kinki (Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi) being second.

Tohoku however, was historically a backwater place - the genius of Nagao Kagetora aka Uesugi Kenshin was responsible for transforming Echigo into a productive and commercially active province.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
04-27-2007, 04:37
Maps of Japan (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/japan.html)
Topography (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/japan_rel96.jpg)
another Topographic map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Japan_topo_en.jpg)
Modern Land Usage - give us an idea of arable area (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/japan_land_1971.jpg)

barocca
04-27-2007, 04:43
geography and climate article at wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Japan)
worth a read






BTW - i have no objections to you guys coming up with some new numbers for income from various provinces

cheers
B.

Puzz3D
04-27-2007, 13:17
In our case, i think the calculation based on borders does not account for the geometric shape of the map (essentially the spatial distribution and relationship between the borders), so after redistributing incomes based on it, creating other blobbing/stagnating points remains as a possibility.
I think it does account for the relationship of the borders. The income is lowest at the ends of the ellipsoid where it's safeset to operate. Along the neck, it accounts for the narrow "front" where forces can be concentrated. In the fat part of the map, it accounts for the need to maintain strong forces in all of the occupied provinces. The fat part will provide an economic advantage if you can control enough of it, but initially that's difficult to accomplish. Even after one clan dominates the center there arel still two fronts to defend against two different factions.

I think the differential in province income will have to be adjusted based on testing. The differential can be adjusted by changing the size of the base income. Of course, you could do the same thing with an historical distribution of province income. The system used in beta 8 may work fine if the differential is decreased.



So, if Hida/Shinano/Mino/Kozuke/Shimotsuke come as the richest (as they share the most borders) they may get the wealth with a "not-so wealthy province" in between them to avoid blobbing winning points.
Under beta 8 those 5 provinces have 3169 initial income. Under the topographic system they have 3671.


Indeed the Kanto (mainly Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami?) was the richest part with kinki (Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi) being second.
Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami

beta 8 = 3707
topographic = 1748

Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi

beta 8 = 3188
topographic = 2759

So an empirical adjustment of the beta 8 system would be more historical, and may work ok if the differential in province incomes is reduced.

R'as al Ghul
04-27-2007, 13:26
The topographic approach where the number of borders is related to income is promising. We just have to make sure that the income doesn't decrease in respect to beta_8. I think the lowest base income for a province should be 200, instead of 110 or what we have now.

barocca
04-27-2007, 13:35
the values in beta 8 come from Shogun, as close a translation as i could get under normal tax levels anyway,

While i dont really care i was wondering if before we go adjusting province income can someone tell me why we need to?

Noir
04-27-2007, 13:41
Originally posted by Puzz3D
I think it does account for the relationship of the borders. The income is lowest at the ends of the ellipsoid where it's safeset to operate. Along the neck, it accounts for the narrow "front" where forces can be concentrated. In the fat part of the map, it accounts for the need to maintain strong forces in all of the occupied provinces. The fat part will provide an economic advantage if you can control enough of it, but initially that's difficult to accomplish. Even after one clan dominates the center there arel still two fronts to defend against two different factions.

The accounting is indirect, to my understanding. There is no parameter in the calculation that i can see that inputs that in the distribution (the locus of the provinces, border interelationship) - the dependence is directly on the number of borbers as far as i can see (please correct me if i'm wrong). The shape of the map provides a further parameter to my understanding.

It would work perfectly if the map was a circle and provinces equal area compartments whitihn it; the ones with equal number of border would be equidistant from the centre, stepping from the ones with the most borders (centre) to the ones with less (eventually adjacent the circumference).

If we now "squash" the circle to the ellispoid the fat part may provide superiority to the point that the ends stagnate - so them despite being safe they cannot produce a winner - the absolute income values/number of factions able to survive/defensibility/maintenance costs-and so spare troops available for invasion, also come into it.

This is why i said that playtesting may adjust the initial distribution based on averages and also that province "altering" (one rich one decent etc or one rich two decent etc) of strong income points at the fat part of the map and at the ends will make for a more interesting game, imo.

What you describe for the whole of the map (safe operation province = low income, high income province = territorial vulnerability) will be happening in a micrography at each geographical area is in a sort of a fractal way if you wish, that is they will be micro-environments that will comply to this rule, as well as the whole map.

Playtesting is needed in any case, and i volunteer for doing so.

Many Thanks

Noir

Noir
04-27-2007, 13:47
Originally posted by Barocca
the values in beta 8 come from Shogun, as close a translation as i could get under normal tax levels anyway,

While i dont really care i was wondering if before we go adjusting province income can someone tell me why we need to?
Today 13:26




Originally posted by Noir
My original concern was not so much for the AI factions but for the player (there is a clear line of conquest that leads to victory hence predictability), although i've seen a fair set of AI winners coming from holding Tohoku (Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo) and then the Kanto.

I started the whole thing i'm afraid - the campaign plays well, there are however cookie cutter strategies for becoming Shogun. I mention about them in almost all the above posts. The idea is, much like Puzz3D is mentioning that a more equal chance for any point of the map is given for victory and that there isn't a "standard" way to conquer a map.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
04-27-2007, 14:16
i think any set of incomes per province will give some factions advantages and some penalties,
In short
it's not up to me,
but i would not bother changing anything except adding something to the lowest income provinces (and even then i would think carefully)
B.

Puzz3D
04-27-2007, 14:43
The topographic approach where the number of borders is related to income is promising. We just have to make sure that the income doesn't decrease in respect to beta_8. I think the lowest base income for a province should be 200, instead of 110 or what we have now.
It doesn't decrease.

Total income for all Japan:
beta 8 = 26402
topographic = 26548

Minimum income:
beta 8 = 112 in Awajii
topographic = 109 in Sado

Maximum income:
beta 8 = 1202 in Owari
topographic = 959 in Shinano

What's different is the differential between the north and the south:
The northern half of the map in beta 8 has 51% more income than the southern half.
With the tomoprahic system the northern half has 12% more income than the southern half.

And, the differential between the richest and the poorest province is less in the topographic system.

Puzz3D
04-27-2007, 14:58
i think any set of incomes per province will give some factions advantages and some penalties,
I don't agree with that. There is a mathematical solution which will balance all factions chances, but it would probably take a lot of work to find it. However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.

Noir
04-27-2007, 17:02
Originally posted by Puzz3D
What's different is the differential between the north and the south:
The northern half of the map in beta 8 has 51% more income than the southern half.
With the tomoprahic system the northern half has 12% more income than the southern half.

And, the differential between the richest and the poorest province is less in the topographic system.

It sounds/feels towards the right direction for setting out more equal winning conditions for all factions/areas.


Originally posted by Puzz3D
I don't agree with that. There is a mathematical solution which will balance all factions chances, but it would probably take a lot of work to find it. However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.

Agreed - the reason i posted indicating the concentrated provinces in my earlier posts on the matter would be to do the balancing with as little disturbance of the rest as possible.

I also believe that there is an (approximate) mathematical solution (or solutions), but it'll be quite complex to determine (as Puzz3D hinted), i feel.

Just for the sake of conversing, I doubt that it'll be an exact solution, as the map and faction starting positions are lacking symmetry. There is also the matter of conquest pacing, during a campaign (equivalent to tempo in chess, i guess) that will influence as an additional parameter.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
04-27-2007, 22:24
However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.

can you work out which provinces were historically richer?

some provinces are poor because of terrain, which should be roughly represented by the defensible nature of their maps,

(later today i will make a thread about battle maps and explain a bit better, i have found some inconsistencies, some we thought the game uses, it doesn't...ever

i would not like a map with too much equalised, then playing different factions would not mean much,
if they all have the same chance of winning then which clans are challenging to play?

currently if you dont have much money you have to be aggressive,
(i usually take out another clan right away)
if you have tons of money you can afford to wait

Puzz3D
04-27-2007, 23:37
some provinces are poor because of terrain, which should be roughly represented by the defensible nature of their maps,
I distributed the maps by their terrain type into the appropriate border map sets.



i would not like a map with too much equalised, then playing different factions would not mean much,
if they all have the same chance of winning then which clans are challenging to play?
Presumably they would all be challenging to play. The complaint was that it was too easy to win with some of the clans. I'm also not sure that the game is winnable with every clan.



currently if you dont have much money you have to be aggressive,
(i usually take out another clan right away)
if you have tons of money you can afford to wait
I would rather that a combination of both strategies have to be used for every clan.

barocca
04-28-2007, 09:06
sorry,
what i meant is that poor provinces (in original Shogun) generally had terrian that was earier to defend. So the payoff for less money was easier terrain.
But in Shogun the maps were named and we cannot do that in medieval,

medieval uses terrain groups and there is a limit on terrain groups,
i am still testing them,
but i can confirm neither desert maps not steppe maps can be used by campaign,
that leaves about 60 combinations, and i am thinking only 25 to 30 will actually work, (it seems that reversals wont work)
I have a ton more testing, then i will let you know what works and what wont.

the interesting thing to remember is that what is actually IN the map need have no correlation to what the startpos file declares the terrain to be.

meaning we can call the map flattohillscoastal,
but what terrain the map actually has is entirely up to us.


The thing is that i dont think the mod will be enhanced by trying to level out all the clans for winnability,
i think the fun and the challenge is some clans are hard to win.

remember some people were finding Iron Man on very hard, Easy.

Puzz3D
04-28-2007, 14:16
sorry,
what i meant is that poor provinces (in original Shogun) generally had terrian that was earier to defend. So the payoff for less money was easier terrain.
But in Shogun the maps were named and we cannot do that in medieval,
The proper strategy is to take the rich provinces not the poor ones. For instance, as Takeda I started with Hida and Shinano, and by 1552 have captured Kai, Musashi, Kozuke and Shinano. I don't go after provinces like Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Totomi, Suruga and Izo. Uesugi is the most powerful clan because it has Echigo, Dewa, Mutsu, Shimotsuke and also the lesser Etchu, Noto and Sado on the northern end, and used that wealth to launch an amphibious attack capturing Tajima, Inaba, Harima, Bize, Awajii and Iyo. Uesugi has ships everywhere. No other clan has ships. Uesugi's 7 northern provinces produce 7922 income and are defended by 3692 men while its second block of 6 provinces around Harima produce 2731 income and are defended by 2424 men. Clearly that second block of provinces is much less cost efficient than the primary block on the northern end. My 5 Takeda clan provinces produce 7278 income and are defended by 3490 men. I achieved that by disbanding all non-heir hatamoto units. Oda has 14 central provinces: Totomi, Mikawa, Owari, Mino, Echizen, Wakasa, Omi, Iga, Ise, Kii, Yamato, Kawachi, Yamashiro and Tamba producing 7829 income and defended by 2983 men. The Otomo clan has all 10 of the southern provinces: Satsuma, Osumi, Higo, Hizen, Hyuga, Chikugo, Chikuzen, Buzen, Bungo and Nagato producing 7603 income and defended by 4127 men. Satomi with Hitachi, Shimosa and Kazusa producing 4569 income and defended by 1938 men is the only other important clan remaining. They face a civil war against 595 rebels on this turn. If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its income making the most powerful clan substantially more powerful. Hitachi alone is nearly worth the entire second block of 6 Uesugi provinces.


the interesting thing to remember is that what is actually IN the map need have no correlation to what the startpos file declares the terrain to be.

meaning we can call the map flattohillscoastal,
but what terrain the map actually has is entirely up to us.
The maps have been categorized according to their terrain.



The thing is that i dont think the mod will be enhanced by trying to level out all the clans for winnability,
i think the fun and the challenge is some clans are hard to win.
There is clearly too much economic advantage on the northern part of the map.



remember some people were finding Iron Man on very hard, Easy.
That's the problem the suggestions are meant to address.

Noir
04-28-2007, 15:08
Originally posted by Puzz3D
The proper strategy is to take the rich provinces not the poor ones. For instance, as Takeda I started with Hida and Shinano, and by 1552 have captured Kai, Musashi, Kozuke and Shinano. I don't go after provinces like Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Totomi, Suruga and Izo. Uesugi is the most powerful clan because it has Echigo, Dewa, Mutsu, Shimotsuke and also the lesser Etchu, Noto and Sado on the northern end, and used that wealth to launch an amphibious attack capturing Tajima, Inaba, Harima, Bize, Awajii and Iyo. Uesugi has ships everywhere. No other clan has ships. Uesugi's 7 northern provinces produce 7922 income and are defended by 3692 men while its second block of 6 provinces around Harima produce 2731 income and are defended by 2424 men. Clearly that second block of provinces is much less cost efficient than the primary block on the northern end. My 5 Takeda clan provinces produce 7278 income and are defended by 3490 men. I achieved that by disbanding all non-heir hatamoto units. Oda has 14 central provinces: Totomi, Mikawa, Owari, Mino, Echizen, Wakasa, Omi, Iga, Ise, Kii, Yamato, Kawachi, Yamashiro and Tamba producing 7829 income and defended by 2983 men. The Otomo clan has all 10 of the southern provinces: Satsuma, Osumi, Higo, Hizen, Hyuga, Chikugo, Chikuzen, Buzen, Bungo and Nagato producing 7603 income and defended by 4127 men. Satomi with Hitachi, Shimosa and Kazusa producing 4569 income and defended by 1938 men is the only other important clan remaining. They face a civil war against 595 rebels on this turn. If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its income making the most powerful clan substantially more powerful. Hitachi alone is nearly worth the entire second block of 6 Uesugi provinces.


This is exactly describing the problem i wanted to bring about.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
04-28-2007, 20:34
are we saying there is too much money floating around?

On this map you can see the original shogun values (http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/map_mapped.html) you will notice places like awa and izu have there income increased for the mod, most of the others,
on normal difficulty and Without enhancements should be within +/- 20 of the original shogun values.


If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its incomeHitachi on normal difficulty with NO upgrades starts the game earning only 620 per turn. Just like Shogun did.

Thats one thing to remember, you guys are counting enhanced land values, with trading posts, mines, Governors accumen boosts, Kings accumen boosts, happiness boosts (happiness boosts production) and all the whistles and bellls,
once you try to start balancing the improved values the whole kettle of fish gets all screwy.

How do you allow for Governors accumen in the equation? How do you allow for happiness?
Do i force all kings to famous and lock their stats??
(I allowed for the base trading item values when i balanced the incomes.)


If you cut all the new clans out and only leave the original clans in then the balance is fine, with each clan having the same chance of winning.


too much money, which brings us back to too much money.
Accumen did not exist in shogun, it does in medieval and if hitachi is generating 2000+koku, then something needs to be done.
Farming upgrades - edit the income coloumn to read 20,40,60,90 should do the trick.
Halve all the mines income,
Copper become 50,100
Silver becomes 75,150
Gold becomes 100,200
Salt becomes 25,50
Also Citadel Upgrade, ADD This entry to the income column for Castles
0,0,0,0,0,0,100
That last gives a small boost when you get to the end of the building chain.


Uesugi start with Sado, so they start as a seafaring faction, if i dont give them the shipbuilder at the beginning they get killed off every time.


Mori, currently start with a superhero, his unit has a start boost of +1 valour and a visible V&V +5 valour, and a command +4 (gives +2 valour) and a hidden V&V boost of +5 valour
- giving Mori an unstoppable unit of yari sams with 13 valour...yet Mori lose constantly in the 28 clan campaign.



The Mod, in my opinion, cannot be balanced for 28 active clans,
the original 7 active clans with 2 provinces each - it is balanced,
add another 3 to 4 more active clans, maybe we can balance it ... we can juggle provinces.

28 active Clans??? ...no, too much stress, too many variables like
heroes, king, accumen, happiness...


but we can fix the too much money problem.

Bonfire
04-28-2007, 22:48
my only requst for the next version is that you make a fully incorperate working mongol faction with units heirs the works.

i would love to finaly play them in a build mode VS the samuari warlords.

you could also make it a differant era.

like what you done with the MP and the SP.

you can add an extra ERA the Mongol Invasion..

but instead of pillaging for koku to get reinforcements you can begin buidling and creating your own units/reinforcements.

we could also add a few extra factions. from the previous era. for a lil challenge. thats it i'll be happy once i can play the mongols

you know the one thing i don't like about the history of all the total wars. the mongols are not looked apon as a great project yet they will do the alexander add on for the rome total war.

it just doesn't make sence. you would also think creative assembly would have included the mongol faction with the viking expansion.. but as a earlier period of play then the high.. and there not even playbale in the late wtf is up with that.

i would also like to add when it came ot how much one conquered..
the golden conquer south russia,japan,china,india, ran into a bottle of bad achol and died from posioning. (much better way to go then by a elephant.)

the alexander the great only conquerered. persia/babylon-kept going east ran into a huge ass elephant then poof . there goes his legacy.

so far i have been disapoints time and time again with the total war project i havn't played MTW2 yet but i heard it was jsut like RTW egine so im not ina hury to go try it. my friend lars from denmark told me that hte golden horde is playable this time around. but ona egine my computer can't handle go figure (same thing happen tome when i baught and still have elder scrolls oblvion)

i still enjoy the MTW egine...

just as the mods keep coming.

@the modders of samuari warlords.

i really like your mod. i hope your next version will include a fully incorperated mongol faction. with more then one faction to duke it out with then the hojo. and that you can build an empire instead of pillaging.

later all :2thumbsup:

barocca
04-29-2007, 05:31
As Promised here is a thread explaing how the map groups work (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1522785#post1522785)
cheers,
B.



just tested as per release 8
Hitachi
normal taxes, no governor, no happiness or other bonuses

unimproved = 620koku
20% = 739koku (should be 744)
40% = 871koku (should be 868)
60% = 990koku (should be 992)
100% = 1241 koku (should be 1240)

so i think i got it pretty close.

Like i said above the Medieval Engine has all sorts of bonuses to add and Shogun did not,
rather than try and fiddle all the bonuses i went with the base province incomes as they were in Shogun (well as close as i could get)

Puzz3D
04-30-2007, 13:49
Like i said above the Medieval Engine has all sorts of bonuses to add and Shogun did not,
rather than try and fiddle all the bonuses i went with the base province incomes as they were in Shogun (well as close as i could get)
I think it could be addressed to some extent by altering the base incomes of the provinces which could more or less represent the quality of the land for farming. Additionally, an historical aspect is also present in the ecomomic potential of the bonuses.

A generic problem of the game's design is that the magnitude of most bonuses is excessive, and seems to be an underlying concept in the design. The boost due to command stars and battlefield upgrades are good examples of this excess. For instance, it only takes 3 battlefield upgrades for a YS to beat a WM.

Hitachi starts at 620, but Uesugi has it at 2757 income in my current campaign with a 3 acumen governor. In contrast, Shinano starts at 541, but the highest I can get it with maxed out improvements is 1211 income with a 4 acumen governor. I've seen Mutsu as high as 2966 in this campaign.

I've gotten to year 1688 in this Takeda campaign. I've been able to act as spoiler to Uesugi, but could not knock him out. He still has Noto, Sado, Etchu, Hida, Etchigo, Dewa, Mutsu, and Hitachi. Over this period from 1553 to 1688, Otomo has taken all of the southern provinces up to and including Echizen, Mino, Mikawa, and is building up along that front. They now have 6000 men on the Echizen, Mino, Mikawa line. Uesugi has a total of 5300 men, and Takeda has a total of 7200 men occuping Totomi, Suruga, Shinano, Kozuke, Kai, Sagami, Izo, Musashi, Shimosa and Kazusa. Unless Otomo somehow self destructs, he will win. As Takeda, I just made an alliance with Otomo so hopefully they will attack Uesugi in Hida, and I might be able to get some of the northern provinces. I can't go to war against Otomo because Uesugi is at war with me and refused a cease fire repeatedly. Interestingly Kaga is still occupied by Hoganji since the beginning. No one wants it.

barocca
04-30-2007, 20:11
Kaga - yes, something unusual happens with the Honganji, the AI clans sem to be reluctant to take them out,
usually they die off due to rebellions when they get a lousy leader.

Comparing Shinano to Hitachi is like comparing apples to cheese.
Hitachi is one of the four "super-charged" provinces, the others being Owari, Musashi and Mutsu.
All of which have (almost)double the starting income of Shinano.
(Shinano starts at 340, but in campaign it has already built three levels of farming upgrades giving it 540 income)
(Hida has built All farming upgrades)

Happiness boosts from governor and king also boost produciton,
you can also get "+10/20 %" trade and farming boosts too. (and you can get these from the King AND the governor at the same time)

HOWEVER the difference between the highest income province (Owari) and the lowest (Awaji) is over 1,000 koku base rate.
While that is less than what was in Shogun i would agree a little adjustment is in order.


Puzz, you're the statistician,
I would suggest finding a true average
and a true variation from the average (the average of the sums of the differences)
and then find a way to halve the variation average.

to be fair every province would have to change with rich provinces coming down and poor provinces going up,
but not to an even playing field, just to a level where we dont have such a huge difference.

That way we have some rich provinces and some poor provinces but the difference betwen them will not be so excessive (1090 koku difference is excessive)


WHAT we can think about is give the four Super rich provinces a longer tree, by adding a "Paddy Fields" resource i can give them extra steps on the farming upgrades.
(and is Paddy Fields a good enough name??? - anyone think of anything different/better??)
ALSO
provinces like Kaga, Echizen, Etchu, Ise, Kawachi, Harima, Hyuga and Chikugo would have had the opportunity to become a richer than they were historically. I would suggest giving them the "new" resource, which wont really be a resource, just an indestructable and unbuildable building (can be done)
- I THINK IT can also be made so the Mongols could raid and wreck...totally crippling the japanese economy...

Puzz3D
05-01-2007, 12:59
I would suggest finding a true average and a true variation from the average (the average of the sums of the differences) and then find a way to halve the variation average.

to be fair every province would have to change with rich provinces coming down and poor provinces going up, but not to an even playing field, just to a level where we dont have such a huge difference.

That way we have some rich provinces and some poor provinces but the difference betwen them will not be so excessive (1090 koku difference is excessive)
Cutting the difference in half will help. I don't know if it will make a central province strategy viable. I'm not sure what difference you are talking about. It seems to me that the fully upgraded difference is what's important over the long haul.

In any case, to cut the difference of the province incomes in the startpos file in half:

total income = 26402
average income = 26402/60 = 440

For a province above the average:

new income = average income + (old income - average income)/2

For a province below the average:

new income = average income - (average income - old income)/2

barocca
05-01-2007, 13:15
the problem with full upgrades is there is no limit, we have trade goods and govenor and king boosts,
one of my govenors has 3 virtues all of which boost ag income and 2 also boost trade (and happy)

overall the income wont change, we are just redistributing it...a little.

Hitachi drops from 1149 to 795
Owari drops from 1202 to 821

Awaji climbs from 112 to 276

I am playing a takeda campaign and i took Musashi first and used that income to get me some mercs and took out imagawa, then hojo, then satake and finally mogami. (everyone other clan was wiped out before i could get to them)
I now have everything east of Hida and more koku than i can spend.
(Hitachi brings in well over 3k a turn)
Time for a little wealth redistribution.

barocca
05-01-2007, 13:17
If this does not fix things then i will try adding extra legs to the farming upgrade tree.

barocca
05-01-2007, 13:51
here are the new province incomes,

find the Region Attributes section in the campaign startpos file (smap_8)
and replace that section with this one

may or may not be compatible with old saves

FEEDBACK PELASE
cheers
B.


//========================================
//Region Attributes
//The special characteristics for a region
//========================================
//NOTES:
// region id = code reference for this region
// name = name of region ( pointer to string in "Names.txt" )
// pop = population ( used for disaster calculations )
// culture = culture of this region ( taken into account for rebellions, faith, happiness, etc )
// terrain = Battlemap terrain attribute ( can be LUSH or TEMPERATE)
// architechture = battlemap building styles ( can be AT_DARK_AGE_EUROPEAN, AT_SOUTHERN_EUROPEAN, AT_EASTERN_EUROPEAN or AT_ISLAMIC )
// mapgroup = which group of maps this region looks up when a castle map is called for. values are from 0 -> ?. -1 specifies a random group.
// income = the income the owner of this region gets every year from un-augmented harvests.
// castle_name = name of the castle in this region ( pointer to string in "Names.txt" )
// region attributes = the type of map a battle would be fought on should it occur in this region:
// location - can be INLAND or COAST
// vista - can be FLAT, PLAINS, HILLY, or MOUNTAIN

// INCOME - these numbers give as close as possible the correct incomes at normal difficulty and normal taxation,
// i do not understand the formula used to calculate/translate these numbers into the figures you will see
// as province income in game. i think there is a + or - attatched to terrain types as well as a numerical formula
// barocca - november 2003 - www.totalwar.org
//
// REGION NAME POP. CULTURE TERRAIN ARCHITECHTURE MAPGROUP INCOME CASTLE-NAME REGION ATTRIBUTES VICTORY CONDITION

SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_01 "Satsuma" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 388 "Kagoshima" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_02 "Osumi" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 383 "Kanoya" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_03 "Higo" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 388 "Udo" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_04 "Hizen" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 600 "Nagasaki" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_05 "Hyuga" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 383 "Iga-Ueno" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_06 "Chikugo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 517 "Yanagawa" COAST FLAT RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_07 "Chikuzen" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 503 "Fukuoka" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_08 "Buzen" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 434 "Moji" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_09 "Bungo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 332 "Usuki" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_10 "Nagato" 2 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 350 "Hagi" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_11 "Iyo" 4 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 424 "Itashima" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_12 "Suo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 350 "Iwakuni" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_13 "Tosa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 443 "Kochi" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_14 "Aki" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 362 "Hiroshima" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_15 "Iwami" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 332 "Gotsu" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_16 "Bingo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 312 "Takiyama" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_17 "Izumo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 355 "Matsue" COAST MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_18 "Sanuki" 1 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 572 "Takamatsu" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_19 "Awa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 388 "Tokushima" COAST HILLY RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_20 "Bitchu" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 327 "Takamatsu" COAST FLAT RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_21 "Hoki" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 318 "Kurayoshi" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_22 "Bizen" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 397 "Okayama" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_23 "Mimasaka" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 336 "Tsuyama" INLAND MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_24 "Awaji" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 276 "Sumoto" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_25 "Harima" 1 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 424 "Himeji" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_26 "Inaba" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 336 "Tottori" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_27 "Kii" 0 PAGAN_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 470 "Ota" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_28 "Tajima" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 309 "Toyooka" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_29 "Kawachi" 1 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 424 "Osaka" COAST FLAT RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_30 "Tamba" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 424 "Yagami" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_31 "Yamato" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 470 "Nara" INLAND MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_32 "Yamashiro" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 360 "Kyoto" INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_33 "Iga" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 332 "Iga-Ueno" INLAND MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_34 "Ise" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 628 "Nagashima" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_35 "Wakasa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 318 "Maruoka" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_36 "Omi" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 438 "Hikone" INLAND FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_37 "Owari" 1 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 821 "Inuyama" COAST PLAINS RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_38 "Mino" 3 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 461 "Inabayama" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_39 "Echizen" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 480 "Ichijo Ga Dani" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_40 "Kaga" 3 PAGAN_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 406 "Kanazawa" COAST HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_41 "Mikawa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 461 "Okazaki" COAST PLAINS RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_42 "Hida" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 332 "Takayama" INLAND MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_43 "Totomi" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 369 "Hamamatsu" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_44 "Noto" 0 PAGAN_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 314 "Nanao" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_45 "Shinano" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 535 "Fukashi" INLAND MOUNTAIN NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_46 "Etchu" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 424 "Matsukura" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_47 "Suruga" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 310 "Fujigawa" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_48 "Izu" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 289 "Shimoda" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_49 "Kai" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 399 "Kofu" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_50 "Sagami" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 638 "Odawara" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_51 "Musashi" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 812 "Edo" COAST PLAINS RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_52 "Kozuke" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 600 "Minowa" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_53 "Kazusa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 397 "Mifunedai" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_54 "Shimosa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 488 "Konodai" COAST PLAINS RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_55 "Echigo" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 581 "Otate" COAST FLAT RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_56 "Shimotsuke" 0 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 415 "Aizu" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_57 "Sado" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 364 "Ogi" COAST FLAT NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_58 "Hitachi" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 795 "Hitachi" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_59 "Mutsu" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 775 "Sendai" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE
SetAttributes:: ID_LANDREG_60 "Dewa" 0 ORTHODOX_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 590 "Yamagata" COAST PLAINS NO_RIVER TRUE


cheers
B.

Noir
05-01-2007, 13:58
I'll play some this weekend (no time in weekdays) and report Monday.

PS May i also note that provinces that have their backs to the sea, have a large income and a river are playbalance killers as just by holding on to them and developing them i've won more campaigns that i can remember in STW and quite a few in SWs. From these two are in the northern part (Etchigo and Musashi) one in the centre (Owari) and one in the south (Chikugo).

It might be possible to further get around this (together with re-balancing) that a river map may be blend together with normal maps so when these are invaded they sometimes give a river battle and sometimes dont.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
05-01-2007, 14:19
you mean in the rivermap groups put say 1 in 4 maps that is NOT a river map...
to simulate a successfull outflanking manouver by the attacker?

barocca
05-01-2007, 15:26
have let three campaigns autorun,
1 shimazu victory, (satomi looked like they'd take it, but fell apart in a rebellion)
2 mogami victory, (slow and steady wins the race, 1600's before it ended)
3 takeda victory, (surprising, expanded got hammered back to 1 province and then went to town on everybody very rapidly)
night
B.

Puzz3D
05-01-2007, 16:17
you mean in the rivermap groups put say 1 in 4 maps that is NOT a river map... to simulate a successfull outflanking manouver by the attacker?
That happens with Musashi already. Maybe I accidentally put a non-river map in that group, but it might also be that one particular border crossing is a non-river. The castle would be located on one side of the river, and that's the side that would be defended so that you can retreat to the castle. Perhaps make the border crossings on the castle's side of the river non-river maps, but the random idea is good as well.

I'll be able to try these new province incomes tonight. I'll play Takeda.

I also did some auto-run campaigns last night, and the clan that got both Hitachi and Mutsu would take over the northern half of the map. However, the AI is not effective at preventing rebellions even with the -loyalty:180 argument. This prevented any AI clan from actually winning my auto-run campaigns, and sometimes a different clan would take over the northern end if it regenerated with a large force. It also seems that the campaign ends in or about 1868 with a "time loss".

In my present Takeda campaign, the alliance with Otomo worked to my advantage. Uesugi attacked me in Shinano with 2500 vs my 2000 and won. I killed 1500 but lost 1200 men. I retreated to the castle, but it was going to fall in 1 year. I sallied and lost which reduced the size of my force in the castle to 78 men, but it was still going to fall the next year. On that turn, Otomo invaded Shinano with a large force and Uesugi abandoned the siege. Otomo then withdrew from the province and returned it to me. He then withdrew 5000 of its 6000 men on the front I believe to fight Oda who had regenerated. Satomi, who had the single province of Shimotsuke, then took Mutsu. That allowed me to get Hitachi and Echigo, and I then quickly eliminated Satomi. Now I have northern Japan and may be able to give Otomo a fight. It's 1717.

Noir
05-01-2007, 17:36
Originally posted by Barocca
you mean in the rivermap groups put say 1 in 4 maps that is NOT a river map...
to simulate a successfull outflanking manouver by the attacker?

Yes, or even better IMO to put 2 out of 4 maps that are not a river.

Many Thanks

Noir

Puzz3D
05-01-2007, 19:27
Yes, or even better IMO to put 2 out of 4 maps that are not a river.
We don't know if the map selection from the groups is really random.

Bonfire
05-01-2007, 19:48
how abotu you make 4 non river maps for each river province but the assualt and the defence of any castle that is on a river province include the river scene.

so that way you need to get throught he river fight before the castle fight. so you or the comptuer need more men. this also allows you to enjoy the well laid out defnces of oyur own castle or take the time to look around your current assualt map when deploying troops where it is best to place sombody .

Bonfire
05-01-2007, 20:14
i geus what i was trying to say was. have all the maps be without a river.

redo the castle maps. on the provices with rivers.

have a river in the assualt maps. but have them only for provinces with rivers in them

so during the assult on a province with a river. you have to walk over a bridge before assulting the caslte (all on the same battle map)

Puzz3D
05-01-2007, 20:36
so during the assult on a province with a river. you have to walk over a bridge before assulting the caslte (all on the same battle map)
Can't do it because you can deploy anywhere around the castle. Only the AI gets stuck deploying at the default spot at the bottom of the map in a castle assault. The castles will be quite formidable on their own.

Noir
05-01-2007, 21:09
Originally posted by Puzz3D
We don't know if the map selection from the groups is really random.

It appears to be, at least when i play MTW campaigns. The river map selection seldom gives the same river map.

Even if that means that they are using a rota of some sort it helps with having a not always river crossing.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
05-01-2007, 22:55
i dont think the map choice is truly random,
i think the game keeps track and uses each map sequentially until it runs out and then starts over BUT i also think it does this for AI battles, meaning all factions are working off the same "roster" as it were.

Naturally more maps in each group is better

anyway
what i would like is some way to differentiate plains and flat terrains,
i was thinking , seeing we are using small maps for hilly, mountian and flat what about using the largest maps for plains?
Plains battles should be cavalry manouver, not small scale infantry plodding.
If you dont have the cavalry you need to take the map then either build some or hire some.

My mind is drawing a blank, we have three map sizes right?

For the "to" and "from" plains maps (PlainsToHilly, MountainToPlains etc) we use the medium sized maps?


This would allow you to redesinate the current plains maps into Flats, Hilly or FlatToHilly.
But the Current correct Province maps you could either upscale them or leave the very best of them as plains, like a sort of bonus map,
that way Most plains battles would be large maps,
but every now and then you get to fight on a small map
- (similar to Noirs excellent idea about a river map Without a river, to represent successful pre battle flanking manouver)


Some River Provinces borders have rivers, some do not??!
There really should not be any instances of that in the startpos file,
my thinking at the time was what is the point of holding a river province if you cannot use the river for defence?
HOWEVER i am very much liking the idea of random normal maps in the river map groups


Autorun
I declare a game won when one clan holds more than 80% of the provinces, left to run by itself I have never seen Total Victory either,
for that matter I have never got to Total Victory myself - the rebellion factor inbuilt into Medieval is too strong on anything over than easy.

cheers
B.

Puzz3D
05-02-2007, 04:26
The AI doesn't play as well on large maps because it doesn't know how to manage fatigue. Fatigue rates are optimized for the small maps. The AI's reinforcements also get badly strung out on large maps, and the battles take longer to play. The medium size maps would be a better choice since these problems wouldn't be as apparent.

barocca
05-02-2007, 06:59
:bow:

Puzz3D
05-02-2007, 15:52
I got the generic map for a battle in Musashi. I attacked from Shinano to relieve a siege, and also brought in forces from Kai. I was also joined by units from the castle in Musashi. The army's commander was in the force coming from the castle. This was the second battle on that turn, and was a winter battle. I had successfully defended Shinano in the first battle.

barocca
05-02-2007, 22:33
the game does not select steppe or desert maps for campaign,
can those maps be reassigned to other groups?
(and any recommendations for additional terrain sets to use? as per the list in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84314))

barocca
05-02-2007, 22:39
I got the generic map for a battle in Musashi. I attacked from Shinano to relieve a siege, and also brought in forces from Kai. I was also joined by units from the castle in Musashi. The army's commander was in the force coming from the castle. This was the second battle on that turn, and was a winter battle. I had successfully defended Shinano in the first battle.
an error of some sort
All the required map types exist in the set you have made,
addendum - (i did not test if all the maps actually work)
we would need to see similar occurences in other provinces to be able to determine the cause

Puzz3D
05-03-2007, 12:21
we would need to see similar occurences in other provinces to be able to determine the cause
I did more tests, and it happens when the general comes from the castle. The game must use the general in addition to some other parameter to determine which map set to use when no border is crossed. I didn't get the generic map on a sally in Shinano, but I did in Musashi. The game may be looking for a map in one of the map sets that we didn't use in beta 8.

Bonfire
05-03-2007, 13:00
well couple days ago i started an expert campaign with the newly adjusted smap_8 thanks to brocca.

i was the askitaga faction right next to oda in the capital. i was doing fine until i invaded the small island west of the yoshi sanada came back. but he brought with him the force of 4,000 men and since i was the second province he was under... he quickly elimnated the faction that had 1 of his provice since it was only 2. but for me. i had to empty my land give up the provinces that i by right took through conquest. and for nothing i could do nothing agasint the onslaught of 4,056 samuari.

last i checked in shogun total war. when a faction is elimanated. they don't come back.. because of the way of the warrior..

its either that. or my memory of the game a lil foggy but i could have sworn factions don't make a comback..


is there anyway to get rid of this.


anytime you play a new game and your at the beggin and you expanind slowly trying not to strain your army. when pow a force comes and you cannot defend agasint it i was pist what happen to me.

it was the first time in a long time playing a faciton on expert serounded by other factions. kinda like the danes on expert.. or aragonese on expert you know what im saying..

Bonfire
05-03-2007, 13:14
im wondering why in the mod oyu start off with 20,000 on easy and 17k on expert.

you realise because of this oda always bribes the monk province southwest of owari.

maybe we could alter the monks in thoes province so you can't bribe them and force them to be faught off or the use of a ninja.

cause oda imbalances the game every time buy bribing the monks southwest of owari.

he has done it. 3/4 times i tried. the 1/4th was the other faction next to it.

could you guys also lower the rate of the upkeep and cost. so there is no need of 20k-17khaving the support coat being 90 with ashgru and 100+ beside bninja and kenasi.

it make's it hard to save that 17k on expert. then after the money is gone ther is no way to succesfuly raise money because of the fact that most of the money goes away with the fact of support cost of the units.

because of the high ammont of money you start off with the province of owari comes under the control of one of the faction right next to it thus. a level 3 monk temple complex is under the control of a faction that can produce valor 2-3 monks. thus the imbalance of the game. and outrageous morale of the monks.

Puzz3D
05-03-2007, 17:02
well couple days ago i started an expert campaign with the newly adjusted smap_8 thanks to brocca.

i was the askitaga faction right next to oda in the capital. i was doing fine until i invaded the small island west of the yoshi sanada came back. but he brought with him the force of 4,000 men and since i was the second province he was under... he quickly elimnated the faction that had 1 of his provice since it was only 2. but for me. i had to empty my land give up the provinces that i by right took through conquest. and for nothing i could do nothing agasint the onslaught of 4,056 samuari.
Clans that do come back do so with a lot of power. They need that to survive because they have essentially no income, and can't replace their losses. That can work to your advantage if their power is directed at other AI clans and not you, but it will be directed at you if it was you that eliminated the clan and occupy the territory. As I recall, you can deter clans from reappearing by keeping loyalty high in their former provinces.


last i checked in shogun total war. when a faction is eliminated. they don't come back.. because of the way of the warrior..

its either that. or my memory of the game a lil foggy but i could have sworn factions don't make a comback..

is there anyway to get rid of this.
They came back even in original STW. I don't know if you can get rid of it, but raising the loyalty that the AI has to maintain might reduce it happening to AI clans. You can do that with the -loyalty:X argument in the game's shortcut. I've started using -loyalty:180.



anytime you play a new game and your at the beggin and you expanind slowly trying not to strain your army. when pow a force comes and you cannot defend agasint it i was pist what happen to me.
The player's position is precarious. I'll give Ashikaga a try tonight.

it was the first time in a long time playing a faciton on expert serounded by other factions. kinda like the danes on expert.. or aragonese on expert you know what im saying..[/QUOTE]
Why don't you try normal difficulty? I don't think the campaign is easy even on normal difficulty especially playing the Ashikaga clan.

Puzz3D
05-03-2007, 17:19
im wondering why in the mod oyu start off with 20,000 on easy and 17k on expert.

you realise because of this oda always bribes the monk province southwest of owari.

maybe we could alter the monks in thoes province so you can't bribe them and force them to be faught off or the use of a ninja.

cause oda imbalances the game every time buy bribing the monks southwest of owari.
It's because the unit costs were doubled, but the bribery costs may not have been doubled so there may be an imbalance there. It might be necessary lower the unit and building costs, and then lower the starting money.



could you guys also lower the rate of the upkeep and cost. so there is no need of 20k-17k having the support coat being 90 with ashgru and 100+ beside bninja and kenasi.

it make's it hard to save that 17k on expert. then after the money is gone ther is no way to succesfuly raise money because of the fact that most of the money goes away with the fact of support cost of the units.
The AI is under the same economic limitation. I think the idea is to have limited money so that you have to make choices about what to train and what to build, and so that you can't whole armies of heavy cav and monks. I do think the hatamoto upkeep might be too high.


because of the high ammont of money you start off with the province of owari comes under the control of one of the faction right next to it thus. a level 3 monk temple complex is under the control of a faction that can produce valor 2-3 monks. thus the imbalance of the game. and outrageous morale of the monks.
Level 3 monk temple might be too high. A valor 2 monk is twice as powerful as a valor 0 monk which also makes it almost twice as powerful as a heavy cav unit which is supposed to beat monks, and battlefield upgrades tend to make the strongest units even stronger which increases the difference.

barocca
05-04-2007, 04:00
there are only level 2 temples in the startpos file,

but the AI clans DO cheat on builds,

all items take only 1 turn in the AI queue (they have worksundays permanently enabled)

AI gets the same bonus with troops as well. (ships take 1 turn)

Bonfire
05-04-2007, 11:23
damn that sucks. i gesu i ca go into the start pros. and edit the building creation in the provinces with temple complex.

so that way when they do bribe the units they can't refeinforce their numbers.


brocca how do you chage the game to not allow the ai to have work sundays.

i would much greatly like to play on expert diff and do it completly legit without cheats. but its hard when well you know you read the above i mention..

----
one thing i also notice in the game that some faction have treatys whith there century past counter parts like lets take takada and usegi they shouldn't be allying with them selfs..

sanada should be allways allied with the takada unless the player choose to attack.
oda and mori is fine but the mori clan and some others should not have the ability to build gun units for they love the tradtional way of warfare..(there are some others like that as well.."

(ohh yeah i forgot to ask..)



brocca. ra's and any others.

i like you guy's enjoy the MTW system i don't like the rome egine beside seige battles and the new and improved calvary...

but i was wondering if you would be willing to finish sombody else work which they just don't care for anymore cause they moved onto a bigger project and are pretty much not coming back.

the mod is somthing like. 80% done but they don't have a working campmap jus custom battle's no historical battle of historical campaigns.

the camp map they do have doesn't have descriptions of the units nor does it have portaits for tyhe buildings when you try to right click anytrhing.

the units come up but the buildings on another type of culture build ctd when you try .

all in all the bifs and battle already done.

---------
its middle earth total war. i have the link where you can get the 7.0 beta-camp map patch to 7.0 to 7.0a and the patch of the 7.0a to 7.1a

alt of ppl like me don't like the rome total war egine and perfer the mtw egine of play .

and since the dev team of middle earth for mtw. have disbanded the project and gone to other things.

im sure i could get sombody who is highly educated in the world of lord of the rings im pretty knowledgable my self but not enough ot satisfy the customers who will download it.

Noir
05-04-2007, 12:09
Just a note:

i've invaded Totomi from Shinano the other day and the map wasn't that flat field of Totomi, that i knew from Shogun, but rather a very hilly wooded map that i reckognised as a shape but cannot name.

If this is a known issue then please disregard the post.

Many Thanks

Noir

barocca
05-04-2007, 13:49
Bonfire, if you email me
barocca_x@
hotmail.com

about middle earth files

cheers
B.

Puzz3D
05-04-2007, 15:22
I played an Ashikaga campaign last night on normal difficulty. By 1611 Ashikaga had only 7 provinces with about 5500 income per year, Mori had all of the provinces to the south and Satomi had all of the provinces to the north. However, a short time later Mori and Satomi went to war. I remained allied to Mori since they would loose that war, and I moved against Satomi just as Mori was disintegrating from attrition with rebellions and re-emergence of Amako. By 1636 I had won 3 battles vs Satomi taking Owai, Mikawa and Mino, and they had stripped their provinces of troops causing numerous rebellions. I'm now in a position to possibly win the game.

Bonfire
05-04-2007, 15:35
Bonfire, if you email me
barocca_x@
hotmail.com

about middle earth files

cheers
B.
yeah no prob i will send the link where you can get the files for middle earth total war.

Bonfire
05-05-2007, 14:06
mournin everybody .

i was wondering after i have finished making the middle earth total war mod..

if i might join the samuari warlord develop team .

my strength lies in editing and altering txt files.

im not a graphics junky.

R'as al Ghul
05-05-2007, 17:33
Thanks for the offer.
I don't think we need any help editing the txt files or modding the game.
The current team works very well together.

R'as

barocca
05-06-2007, 11:34
new samurai princess campaign map piece.
OLD princess piece becomes Honganji princess piece.
enjoy
B.
https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6236/00000067rn3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Bonfire
05-06-2007, 15:04
nice work barocca. good job.

Bonfire
05-07-2007, 01:17
hey ras when can the the guild forum community see samurai warlord beta 9 with a new era (possibily) the mongols. and all this new feautres your team is finding and deveolping.

Noir
05-07-2007, 12:19
The new princess piece looks great and it is way more fit for the role than the older one - the three statics of the animation with the ombrella closed and with using and without using the fan are excellent.

Congratulations! - having posted on the matter sometime ago, i am particularly happy to see the new piece.

Many Thanks

Noir

R'as al Ghul
05-07-2007, 12:27
hey ras when can the the guild forum community see samurai warlord beta 9 with a new era (possibily) the mongols. and all this new feautres your team is finding and deveolping.

We're working on it but I can't tell you a date yet.
beta_8 was only just released 5-6 weeks ago.
Have a little patience.

:bow:

Raz
05-07-2007, 12:38
Probably not for quite a while, say two, most likely more, months.

Also, I was playing around with the dead pages in \Textures\Men\. I added the deaths from deadpage 2 to the one the game uses and got some strange results. <_<

Screenies soon. I seem to be missing a lot of them.

Raz
05-07-2007, 13:55
Actually, I'll be posting them a tad later. I seem to be having troubles with my imageshack account. -_-

R'as al Ghul
05-07-2007, 14:00
You don't have to use your account to upload images.
.Org even provides a tool to upload from here.
It's available under "additional options"when you click "Reply".

Raz
05-07-2007, 14:23
I know but I like keeping them on Imageshack since I often delete the originals or lose them somehow over time through the masses of folders I make to try and 'sort' them.

R'as al Ghul
05-07-2007, 14:28
Take your time, I'm just curious about the strange results.
We've had a discussion about the deadpage a couple of months ago and I want to pick that issue up again.
Have you edited the deadpagecoords.txt file, too?

Raz
05-08-2007, 12:55
Slightly, not much though. What I did was replace the the bodies in the deadpage, that the MTW engine uses, with the STW bodies, resizing slightly, due to me not knowing quite how the deapage coords.txt works.

For my ease I grabbed the cavalry bodies from STW, and just slapped them onto the MTW one, overwriting the KHorse bodies (The units that use the KHorse casualty picture) using Ultimate Paint to open it and GIMP to edit it. I noticed that there were two exact same deadpages, a .tga file and the .lbm file. I overwrote both of them after editing.

I ended up with things that looked similar to these (these are of less quality for easier access):
https://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1931/screenshotmtwstwmoddeatcx9.th.jpg (https://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmtwstwmoddeatcx9.jpg) https://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8166/screenshotmtwstwmoddeatda8.th.jpg (https://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmtwstwmoddeatda8.jpg)
https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8827/screenshotmtwstwmoddeatke8.th.jpg (https://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmtwstwmoddeatke8.jpg) https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/622/screenshotmtwstwmoddeatlf3.th.jpg (https://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmtwstwmoddeatlf3.jpg)
https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/199/screenshotmtwstwmoddeatlb5.th.jpg (https://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmtwstwmoddeatlb5.jpg)

(Note: Directly after editing them, I tested it in a custom battle, they didn't have this green background first off, instead they had a black background, just think of the green in it to be black instead.) I noticed this black box around the bodies, so I went straight back to editing them, this next time, I thought why not try the green that CA seems so fond of. The 0 R, 128 G, 0 B, 'Transparent' green. That's when I came across these (above).

I sort of gave up after that as it was late. I did have many more pictures, but I seem to have lost them. I know that this may seem all a tad confusing, just ask away at any points you want me to explain in more detail. Sorry about any grammar mistakes, this is probably rife with them. ^_^

Eventually, I only ended up editing the cavalry.

R'as al Ghul
05-08-2007, 13:06
Thanks for posting.
I know what you did wrong. I'll explain later when I've more time.

:bow:

Raz
05-08-2007, 13:21
I did try several times repeating the process. I'm pretty sure that I made the background colour completely black (0 R, 0 G, 0 B) at least once.

If it's something other than that I'll probably have to read it tomorrow. ~:wave:

R'as al Ghul
05-11-2007, 13:38
Raz,

it's not only important to have the right RGB values, like 0,128,0, but also to have the right index number. You can use the 0,128,0-green all you want, if it's not indexed correctly, you'll see the green instead of having it transparent.
Same with the black values. You can check out the post-battle miniflags for Takeda or Amako in beta_8 and you'll realise that they have some errant black pixels that are transparent. I made a mistake there.
Another issue is that the corpses are "cut off", don't show in their full size. That's due to the coordinates in the deadpage. They need adjustment to show the full corpse.


R'as

Noir
05-14-2007, 13:13
ok, some feedback on the workings of the newly proposed province incomes by Barocca:

I am in the finishings of an Uesugi campaign in Hard difficulty using the new province incomes.

I picked the Uesugi on purpose, in order to check how much the "take Dewa then Mutsu then the world" strategy works. I tried to play as aggressively as possible until i became large (until beating the Satomi), that is as little turtling as necessary. After that i turtled more. I used the 120% loyalty level for rebelliousness that is the default one.

These are the events until 1654:

I initially had an interesting war with Satake and Date for Mutsu (after destroying the Mogami) and later on with Satomi that occupied all the Kanto (1530-1575). The Satomi were a tough opponent and the battles were very good and played very balanced including some multifaction mayhems until they brought forward a general with 8 stars. He invaded Etchigo and sieged me there. When i invaded from Dewa to relieve the garrison, we played a river battle where notable... individuals played a significant role like 3 NAs and 13YS of level 9 from his army (that gave rise to the legend of the 13 spears of Nagano : ).

This seems to be happening from time to time on a per (strong) faction basis (i was playing with .matteosartori. on). I guess is when an able hero is crowned with Offices and has a command virtue or two, but other than that (after that general died that is) there were not such incidents, due to the nerfing of the default command stars. IMO there is some space for nerfing the command starts a bit more, but as they are at the moment they only create folkstories rather than interfering with playbalance, i think.

After that i wedged between a strong Hojo and a strong Satomi, and took advantage of their fear for each other to recapture Dewa (that i had lost in order to save Etchigo), Mutsu and eventually Shimotsuke, Kozuke and Hitachi and finally destroy the Satomi in Shimosa.

At 1585 i was making 5000 per turn and had stored 100,000 koku. It seems the game is won at this stage, as i had already more men than my future competitors and i was the richest for a solid decade.

Eventually i took over the Hojo (1610) and now the Oda (1650). Now (1654) i am preparing for the final showdown with Mori, having large stacks and 250,000 koku stored. The Mori have been getting the richest faction message for about 10 turns.

Elsewhere on the map:
The Hojo got rid of the Takeda (1560) and the Oda expanded all the way from Yamashiro to Mikawa (1575). The Otomo conquered Kyushu but they got a Shimazu reappearance (1590). Subsequently the Shimazu were put down by an ever-expanding Mori. The Mori conquered the Hiroshima pensinsula and were claiming part of Kyushu too, but were slow as they were plagued by civil wars, however eventually they got parts of Shikoku and almost all Kyushu and now are expanding in Etchizen and Kaga taking their share from a collapsing Oda.

Occupying Ecthigo, Dewa and Mutsu was hard but once accomplished firmly is difficult to prevent the holder-player taking on the Kanto and completing conquest of the richest overall area in the map (Dewa-Mutsu-Etchigo-Kozuke-Shimotsuke-Hitachi-Musashi-Shimosa-Kazusa). IMO Dewa and Mutsu still make a lot of koku to provide an advantage . They are difficult to lose too if one holds Etchigo and allow for very effective turtling. Etchigo is powerful, but its ought to be IMO.

Another reason that area of the map is more "suscepible" to produce this effect is that the overall province number is lower than at the "other end". That is the whole can be conquered with "less moves" and to "greater benefit" at the same time.

I'll try a new campaign after i complete this one with the new incomes and a Kyushu clan, and see what the AI clans make of it.

Another interesting thing is that the battles become somewhat easier once guns are introduced in the game for the player as the AI is slower to produce them and most importantly uses them with skirmish on.

In order to account for this it would be perhaps good to introduce the teppo ashigaru units as the default gun units to all clans and make the tech tree for importing large scale teppo warfare more complicated or more expensive or more hard to get (mainly for the sake of keeping teppo off the player's hands). Currently only iron having provinces can make japanese teppo and coastal provinces Portuguese teppo (if i'am not mistaken and this is working well for the player but unfortunately the AI seems slow to make them - i guess because he completes all his other military buildings first).

In order to cut the disadvantage to the AI factions the ability may be restricted to certain clans only (SP only). To counterbalance that, other types of units/units may be emphasised to certain other clans (SP only).
These can be put forth with new units for the SP game.

Generally the incomes seem to work ok IMO, particularly in Kyushu, as all provinces make money now and the Shimazu can compete better with the Ryuoji/Otomo. I would suggest though that Dewa and Mutsu are further nerfed.

Relative to Kaga - i also think nobody wants to take anything from Hoganji. The Oda had a lump of Hoganji in Yamashiro whithin their territories that they didn't touch at all for many turns. They simply allied with Hoganji and concentrated to other opponents. Perhaps its the different religion that causes it. However, after i started fighting with the Oda the Hoganji allied with me and Oda destroyed them shortly afterwards.

Many Thanks

Noir

Edit: the reason why battles become easier when guns become available is that a campaign can be won by what i call "aggressive defence strategy". essentially, after you establish yourself you turtle and wait for the other "major" opponents to attack first (or you provoke thme into doing it after you ar ready). You have a couple of cheap stacks behind a stack that sits in a very defensible province as bait (other borders overgarrisoned). The "victim" attacks only to be chopped down in Nagashino style in mountains and bridges with very little casualties. After that the cheap stacks advance to occupy his now undefended provinces that fall with little to no resistance.

Players that play SP exclusively, tend to play like this often (consciously or unconsciously) as it is a guarantee for victory. After a couple of other clans/factions fall in this way the player is rich enough to storm the remaining opponents with tones of troops. Effectively this means that with 3 or 4 smart chosen defences a campaign can be won - this is all the more true in MTW that factions suffer civil wars after major defeats.

Puzz3D
05-15-2007, 13:11
I'm playing Oda at normal difficulty and loyalty:180 using the new province incomes. It's 1575 and I have 5572 koku with 9146 income and 8929 expenses (217 profit). I have 5979 troops, and control 11 provinces: Yamashiro, Kawachii, Kii, Yamato, Ise, Iga, Omi, Owari, Makasa, Mino and Shinano.

To the north, the Satake are my main opponent. They have 10749 income and 5406 troops. They control 11 provinces: Etchu, Echigo, Dewa, Mutsu, Hitachi, Shimotsuke, Shimoza, Kazusa, Musashi, Sagami and Izu. Totomi and Suruga are being contested between us. Kozuke, Kai and Hida are all independently owned.

To the south, there is no single faction that dominates the region due to faction re-emergences. Clearly if I can defeat Satake which is now just a matter of inflicting more casualties than I sustain, the game is strategically won which seems reasonable since I'll control most of the map. Satake will strip its provinces of troops to reinforce the front line provinces which is how the AI plays, and this will eventually lead to revolts, faction re-emergence or civil war.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-30-2007, 18:46
Samurai Games on MP still on Sundays? Anyone new showing up?

Puzz3D
05-30-2007, 21:27
Samurai Games on MP still on Sundays? Anyone new showing up?
We play every Sunday. Noir and Silvan are new, but we lost players to the valor 1 mtw/vi tournament and they haven't come back. As a result, we play 2v2 or sometimes 3v3 battles.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-31-2007, 17:47
We play every Sunday. Noir and Silvan are new, but we lost players to the valor 1 mtw/vi tournament and they haven't come back. As a result, we play 2v2 or sometimes 3v3 battles.

Cool. to bad some players were lost, but they come back after the tounrment. Why don't you guys do 1 on 1's to? they can be fun as well.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-31-2007, 23:46
Hey,

yeah, I also stuck a little thing on my website about Samurai Warlords Beta 8

http://khanwarman8.tripod.com/

Puzz3D
06-01-2007, 01:30
Hey,

yeah, I also stuck a little thing on my website about Samurai Warlords Beta 8

http://khanwarman8.tripod.com/
Thanks Warman. We do play 1v1 as well, but we try to get everyone in the same game if possible since it's a bit more fun.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-01-2007, 02:31
Thanks Warman. We do play 1v1 as well, but we try to get everyone in the same game if possible since it's a bit more fun.


I'll add some more stuff about it later (be coming back for a bit on Samurai Sunday starting next week).

Yeah, just saying about the 1v1's, because say if there 2 people that show up late, like, You and some newer person, you 2 could do a 1v1 instead of sitting there waiting, or if there 3 people, you get my point, but yeah.

I am for a good 1v1 on this mod but.......


I downloaded it, and when I set it to install in my Main MTW folder, it always hangs (freezes, stops, whatevr you like to call it), on me, and I have to end task. :-(

Puzz3D
06-02-2007, 04:15
I downloaded it, and when I set it to install in my Main MTW folder, it always hangs (freezes, stops, whatevr you like to call it), on me, and I have to end task. :-(
I don't know. If the path to MTW was wrong, you'd get the message "the required folders couldn't be found" when you clicked the install button. The problem might be a compatibility issue with the visual basic library on your machine if it's an old version.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-02-2007, 19:17
I don't know. If the path to MTW was wrong, you'd get the message "the required folders couldn't be found" when you clicked the install button. The problem might be a compatibility issue with the visual basic library on your machine if it's an old version.


it's the right folder, and it worked fine with the last beta, so I dunno. I updated my driver few weeks back when I had Battefield 2 Ploblems, but.

Puzz3D
06-04-2007, 13:51
Warman,

Try turning off your anti-virus program. The latest version of AVG is falsely identifying the beta8 as containing a virus, and might be preventing it from running. This suggestion came from CBR.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-04-2007, 15:00
Warman,

Try turning off your anti-virus program. The latest version of AVG is falsely identifying the beta8 as containing a virus, and might be preventing it from running. This suggestion came from CBR.




Hey,
K thanks m8, I'm in my online class now, but I'll try it when I get done, since I do have AVG. I know my Comodo Firewall been giving me ploblems, but it ain't the firewall lol..

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-04-2007, 19:12
I also think you guys should bring back the province thing you guys used to do on Sundays, I always had fun with that. but this time, you guys should do 1v1's and the winners keep fighting untill only 1 winner is left that Sunday, you know what I mean, then that person wins the province. Kinda Change from the team games and that, but just a idea for a little change :).

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-05-2007, 02:04
Hey,

I'm extrmely embrass but.... How I shut off my AVG Anti Viurs?

Jochi Khan
06-05-2007, 15:33
Hey,

I'm extrmely embrass but.... How I shut off my AVG Anti Viurs?

Right Click on the AVG icon in your taskbar>left click on Quit AVG control centre>click Yes

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-05-2007, 16:02
Right Click on the AVG icon in your taskbar>left click on Quit AVG control centre>click Yes

Thanks Jochi.

I'm sitting here looking for something, and like "where the hell is it?" ;lol thanks:beam:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-05-2007, 19:05
No Soap. Don't know what's wrong.

Puzz3D
06-05-2007, 21:48
Get this zip version of beta 8, but make sure you delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps before unzipping this to your MTW/VI game folder.
SamWars-beta8.zip (http://www.mizus.com/files/files/MTW/Stats/SamWars-beta8.zip)

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-05-2007, 22:26
Get this zip version of beta 8, but make sure you delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps before unzipping this to your MTW/VI game folder.
SamWars-beta8.zip (http://www.mizus.com/files/files/MTW/Stats/SamWars-beta8.zip)


kThanks Puzz :2thumbsup:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-06-2007, 21:14
Get this zip version of beta 8, but make sure you delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps before unzipping this to your MTW/VI game folder.
SamWars-beta8.zip (http://www.mizus.com/files/files/MTW/Stats/SamWars-beta8.zip)


What, in the VI folde Iguess?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-06-2007, 22:59
Puzz,

I like it, may just be enough for me to put down my MP5/SRAW on BF2 and my Level 6 W/NEO on GW to come back every Sunday....

but....

I log on fine, but when I click on host game, I have a CTD (Crash to Desktop). anyway to fix that m8?

Puzz3D
06-06-2007, 23:38
I wonder if the mod is installed properly. Can you play a custom battle in SP?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-07-2007, 01:01
I wonder if the mod is installed properly. Can you play a custom battle in SP?


did I mention (no, I didn't,dummy me), that I still see beta 5 on my lists?is that normal?

Yea I can do it fine. Test game mabye?

R'as al Ghul
06-07-2007, 10:27
did I mention (no, I didn't,dummy me), that I still see beta 5 on my lists?is that normal?

Hi Warman,

you're not supposed to install the beta_8 over a beta_5 install. Which is what you've done if you can still see a beta_5 era.
I'd recommend to install beta_8 on a clean version of MTW/VI.

R'as

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-07-2007, 14:30
Hi Warman,

you're not supposed to install the beta_8 over a beta_5 install. Which is what you've done if you can still see a beta_5 era.
I'd recommend to install beta_8 on a clean version of MTW/VI.

R'as

Hi Ras,

well I expected that when I sarw Beta 5 still in the SP campgain (which is cool btw, getting my ass kicked by Hojo), I'm like "Oh Shit.... That ain't good"

ok, so I just uninstall MTW/VI, reinstall them, and add Beta 8 by itself? I do that tomarrow:2thumbsup:

Jochi Khan
06-07-2007, 15:06
ok, so I just uninstall MTW/VI, reinstall them, and add Beta 8 by itself? I do that tomarrow:2thumbsup:

Don't forget to Patch 2.01 to VI before installing Beta 8

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-07-2007, 15:41
Don't forget to Patch 2.01 to VI before installing Beta 8

Correct, me almost forgot!

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-08-2007, 02:50
Would Anyone like Puzzz or Ras or anyone like to do a test game with me to test it out (since I shall install it tomarrow, Friday June 8th).?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-09-2007, 02:18
Now I can't even get it to work. I did what Puzz said, and I did extacly what I did before (and it worked before), and now it doesn't show up, and Beta 5 is still there, even though I uninstalled both VI and MTW, reinstalled them, and install the 2.01 patch. I am compelty dumbfounded of how to install this Mod.

seireikhaan
06-09-2007, 05:13
Gah! Hey guys, I saw the mod and thought it interesting so I tried to download it. Downloading went fine, but installation was frustrating. When it asked me which folder to install it to, it seemed like nothing was the "correct folder". Consequently, I couldn't install the mod. Help please?

TosaInu
06-09-2007, 10:03
Hello greatherkhaan,

It wants to be installed into the main MTW VI folder. That install will become a total conversion, so if you also want to play vanilla MTW VI, you'll have to make a copy.

Game updates and even mods often peek in the registry to find out where the install is and suggest that in the installpath (some even insist on that :( ).

One needs to browse to the location with this installer.
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/beta8-installer.gif

TosaInu
06-09-2007, 10:07
Now I can't even get it to work. I did what Puzz said, and I did extacly what I did before (and it worked before), and now it doesn't show up, and Beta 5 is still there, even though I uninstalled both VI and MTW, reinstalled them, and install the 2.01 patch. I am compelty dumbfounded of how to install this Mod.

Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

The whole beta 5 install is there? Are you starting from a shortcut?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-09-2007, 15:11
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

The whole beta 5 install is there? Are you starting from a shortcut?


No Tosu,starting from my VI disc.don't know why.

Just call me King, make it easier for you to type fyi.:yes:

TosaInu
06-09-2007, 17:44
No Tosu,starting from my VI disc.don't know why.

Just call me King, make it easier for you to type fyi.:yes:

Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

Thank you.

Then you have installed beta5 in your regular installation copy? When you start from CD, it will launch the exe in that folder and beta5 will be used.

You should start the exe where you installed beta8.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-09-2007, 22:16
I guess I do, even though I un/reinstalled it.

I installed Beta 8 in the same place as I did before, like I said before, it worked the first time I installed it, then I had to unistalled it because of BEta 5 was screwing up my MP (that why I asked to push our games back) and I try to do it again and it won't work,yet beta 5 is still there.

seireikhaan
06-09-2007, 23:15
Yay, its working! Thanks, Tosa, although finding the browse option wasn't my problem. My problem, for some reason, was finding the total war folder. Anyways, just started up a campaign as the Azai clan, and currently struggling w/ finances. Perhaps I should have taken someone easier, like Uesugi?...

Anyways, I just thought I would make one more comment. That Kensai is insane! I tried him out in a custom battle and I couldn't believe my eyes. He chewed through an entire unit of warrior monks by himself!:jawdrop: On top of that, he got 4 valour by the end of the battle. That's crazy that one guy can do that!

Puzz3D
06-10-2007, 01:42
Anyways, I just thought I would make one more comment. That Kensai is insane! I tried him out in a custom battle and I couldn't believe my eyes. He chewed through an entire unit of warrior monks by himself!:jawdrop: On top of that, he got 4 valour by the end of the battle. That's crazy that one guy can do that!
The kensai is too strong. Download the gnome editor (http://www.mizus.com/files/files/Tools/Gnome_CrusadeUnitEditorv1.1.zip), and unzip it to your MTW/VI folder. Run it, and load the STW_SP12_unit_prod.txt file from the main MTW/VI folder. Scroll to column 38 and change the MELEE_BONUS from 15 to 9. Save the file as the same name. This will tone down the kensai quite a lot.

Puzz3D
06-10-2007, 02:12
I guess I do, even though I un/reinstalled it.

I installed Beta 8 in the same place as I did before, like I said before, it worked the first time I installed it, then I had to unistalled it because of BEta 5 was screwing up my MP (that why I asked to push our games back) and I try to do it again and it won't work,yet beta 5 is still there.

After you uninstall mtw/vi, use the windows file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the files there. Before deleting the files copy the \Savegames and \Logfiles folders to someplace else if you want to save them. Install MTW + VI + v2.01. Use the file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps including those in the \Battle\Maps\vikings folder. Unzip the beta 8 into the mtw/vi folder. The beta 8 should work.

If you want vanilla mtw/vi as well, then before installing beta 8 over mtw/vi use the file manager to create a new folder, and then copy the entire contents of the mtw/vi folder to that new folder. Unzip the beta 8 into that new mtw/vi folder. Using the file manager, right click on the Medieval_TW.EXE file in that new mtw/vi folder and select Create Shortcut. The beta 8 install might create this shortcut, but I don't remember. Rename the shortcut to whatever name you want. Copy the shortcut to your desktop. Right click the shortcut, and select properties. Leave a space and add -strictserver to the target line. Use the shortcut to start the beta 8 game. The auto run from the CD will start vanilla mtw/vi.

TosaInu
06-10-2007, 13:13
Yay, its working! Thanks, Tosa, although finding the browse option wasn't my problem. My problem, for some reason, was finding the total war folder.


Hello greaterkhaan,

Great you got it installed.

An idea to find the install is to use the search function of windows (Medieval_TW.exe).

You can also make a shortcut on the desktop (right mouse, drag, create shortcut).

Will you play the campaign or also custom battles?

seireikhaan
06-10-2007, 19:53
Hello greaterkhaan,

Great you got it installed.

An idea to find the install is to use the search function of windows (Medieval_TW.exe).

You can also make a shortcut on the desktop (right mouse, drag, create shortcut).

Will you play the campaign or also custom battles?

Thanks, Tosa! I'll be doing both. As much as I love campaigns, I usually like to do 'test runs' on units, seeing how they hold up in different situations. That way, I can better know how and when to use them in the campaign. Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

seireikhaan
06-10-2007, 22:39
Ok, a couple of comments so far. First, I do seem to be encountering a bug with my ship building, where the boat is popping out on the opposite side that the dock is on.

One more thing I've noticed. Its rather difficult to invade in this game. It seems as though every province I've tried to invade has had some kind of insane hill that the defenders park themselves on, even the provinces where the terrain is allegedly 'plains' or 'flatland'. Either I can try going around the hill, where my troops get slaughtered two to three at a time because I can't get my whole army around to fit in the area. Or I try to go up the hill and the army gets slaughtered wholesale. Similarly, I've found it rather too easy to defend, as I myself take such hills and the exact same result happens, only vice versa.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-10-2007, 22:56
After you uninstall mtw/vi, use the windows file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the files there. Before deleting the files copy the \Savegames and \Logfiles folders to someplace else if you want to save them. Install MTW + VI + v2.01. Use the file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps including those in the \Battle\Maps\vikings folder. Unzip the beta 8 into the mtw/vi folder. The beta 8 should work.

If you want vanilla mtw/vi as well, then before installing beta 8 over mtw/vi use the file manager to create a new folder, and then copy the entire contents of the mtw/vi folder to that new folder. Unzip the beta 8 into that new mtw/vi folder. Using the file manager, right click on the Medieval_TW.EXE file in that new mtw/vi folder and select Create Shortcut. The beta 8 install might create this shortcut, but I don't remember. Rename the shortcut to whatever name you want. Copy the shortcut to your desktop. Right click the shortcut, and select properties. Leave a space and add -strictserver to the target line. Use the shortcut to start the beta 8 game. The auto run from the CD will start vanilla mtw/vi.

ok, I try it this week then before Sunday :-)

TosaInu
06-11-2007, 10:38
Thanks, Tosa! I'll be doing both. As much as I love campaigns, I usually like to do 'test runs' on units, seeing how they hold up in different situations. That way, I can better know how and when to use them in the campaign. Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Hello greaterkhaan,

If you play campaigns and do not auto-resolve battles, playing custom battles is indeed a way to learn. A good understanding/feel for battles will help during the campaign.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-19-2007, 17:37
After you uninstall mtw/vi, use the windows file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the files there. Before deleting the files copy the \Savegames and \Logfiles folders to someplace else if you want to save them. Install MTW + VI + v2.01. Use the file manager to navigate to the mtw/vi folder and delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps including those in the \Battle\Maps\vikings folder. Unzip the beta 8 into the mtw/vi folder. The beta 8 should work.

If you want vanilla mtw/vi as well, then before installing beta 8 over mtw/vi use the file manager to create a new folder, and then copy the entire contents of the mtw/vi folder to that new folder. Unzip the beta 8 into that new mtw/vi folder. Using the file manager, right click on the Medieval_TW.EXE file in that new mtw/vi folder and select Create Shortcut. The beta 8 install might create this shortcut, but I don't remember. Rename the shortcut to whatever name you want. Copy the shortcut to your desktop. Right click the shortcut, and select properties. Leave a space and add -strictserver to the target line. Use the shortcut to start the beta 8 game. The auto run from the CD will start vanilla mtw/vi.


not working m8.

I made a new folder because I still wanted to play VI, and still doesn't work.don't know.

Puzz3D
06-19-2007, 18:03
Warman,

Do you see the Samurai Warlords beta 8 startup screen when you click on the shortcut you made?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-19-2007, 18:12
Warman,

Do you see the Samurai Warlords beta 8 startup screen when you click on the shortcut you made?


No Sir.

Puzz3D
06-19-2007, 18:28
Sounds like the unzip of beta 8 went to the wrong place. Windows unzip puts the contents in a subfolder under the folder you tell it to unzip into. If that happened, you could cut and paste the contents of that subfolder up one level into the new mtw/vi folder.

Another way to install this would be to unzip to a \temp folder, and then use cut and paste to move the unzipped files to the new mtw/vi folder.

You can also bypass the shortcut by clicking directly on the Medieval_TW.EXE in the new mtw/vi folder to see if that starts the beta 8.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-19-2007, 19:04
Sounds like the unzip of beta 8 went to the wrong place. Windows unzip puts the contents in a subfolder under the folder you tell it to unzip into. If that happened, you could cut and paste the contents of that subfolder up one level into the new mtw/vi folder.

Another way to install this would be to unzip to a \temp folder, and then use cut and paste to move the unzipped files to the new mtw/vi folder.

You can also bypass the shortcut by clicking directly on the Medieval_TW.EXE in the new mtw/vi folder to see if that starts the beta 8.


Puzz,

In my new MTW/VI Folder, There is a folder called

modfiles

and in there is all of the Beta 8 unzipped stuff.

Puzz3D
06-19-2007, 21:33
In my new MTW/VI Folder, There is a folder called modfiles
OK. I didn't realize the zip version put everything under a \modfiles folder.

What you have to do is use file manager to navigate into that modfiles folder, select all the files and folders in there, right click on them and select cut. Then navigate up one level, use right click and paste the files into the mtw/vi folder. Answer "yes to all" when it asks to replace a file. Remember to delete all the maps in \Battle\Maps before doing this cut and paste.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-19-2007, 22:36
WHOOOOOOOOOOOO
8


.......
Excuse me

Thy Said "Let Their be a Imagawa Clan!" and there was a Imagawa Clan!

See you Sunday :-) :-)

TosaInu
06-25-2007, 17:27
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

Great that you have it installed, MP worked without problems too. Will we see you next Sunday?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-25-2007, 22:18
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

Great that you have it installed, MP worked without problems too. Will we see you next Sunday?

Hey Tosa,

yea,you will see me next Sunday also. Only Ploblem I had was, before I left, CBR (I think), hosted a game, and I had ploblems seeing his game then and a little while back before I fought Tosa,plus it seem when I was typing, it came up very slow. Other then that, my two 1v1's ran smoothly.

TosaInu
06-26-2007, 13:32
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

It seems GameSpy is acting up at times (invisible games, lag).

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-26-2007, 15:04
Yea, it happens sometimes.

OmarPacha
07-12-2007, 10:55
Download and installation went fine; I must say that Barocca and anyone has worked on this modification did an impressive job, many thanks to all.
I saw also new pieces in Barocca post of last 26 june but they are not included in the beta 8,
may we expect a new release or those new improvements are available elsewhere ?

Cheers

Puzz3D
07-12-2007, 15:57
There will be a beta 9, but probably not for a while. In the meantime, I have made a preliminary set of new castle maps for evaluation, and these can be installed on the beta 8.

SW_castles_2 (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Yuuki/SW_castles_2.rar) is a set of 8 castle maps repeated 3 times to replace castleflat_01, castlehilly01 and castleplains01. Also included are new model parameter files to adjust the strength and firepower of gates and walls.

To install this first delete all the castle maps in \Battle\Maps, and then unrar this archive to your main Samurai Warlords beta 8 folder. Let the install overwrite the existing files. Don't install this to a version of beta 8 that you use for MP, because it will make your game incompatible with other MP players.

Also, I would suggest reducing the kensai combat stats to be att=9, def=7 otherwise he becomes too strong due to battlefield upgrades.

Also, you may want to switch to the new province incomes, which I think work well, as detailed in this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82292&page=10) by barocca.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-12-2007, 19:42
Hey,

yea, it seems like lately, when I did those 1v1's with Tosa that one Sunday, it worked fine, I didn't have much lag or anything, but these past 2 sundays, I kept getting these out of memory error messages. CBR said it's proably a driver issue if I remember correctly.

Puzz3D
07-13-2007, 12:05
Hey, yea, it seems like lately, when I did those 1v1's with Tosa that one Sunday, it worked fine, I didn't have much lag or anything, but these past 2 sundays, I kept getting these out of memory error messages. CBR said it's proably a driver issue if I remember correctly.
I think your battlefield screen resolution may be set too high. It also might help to set the desktop to 16-bit color.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-13-2007, 15:46
I think your battlefield screen resolution may be set too high. It also might help to set the desktop to 16-bit color.

Thanks Puzz. I do that today and come on sunday to see if it helps.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-14-2007, 03:11
works good, Thanks Puzz!! :-) :-)

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-15-2007, 15:44
I be on around 22-22:30 GMT since I am going out, so I can test it out :-)

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-21-2007, 03:37
still somewhat laggy, but it works! I be coming on this sunday for a game or two, I bring a new clannie I got so he can join to :-).

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-29-2007, 21:44
https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3908/stwbeta8ir7.jpg

the ploblem

Nakamura Lobato
07-29-2007, 22:58
What versionof Direct X are you running? VI uses 9.0. The latest Direct X can be downloaded here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/Browse.aspx?displaylang=en&categoryid=2
NL

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-30-2007, 04:31
9.0c I thought I was running.

Puzz3D
07-30-2007, 06:09
You could try reinstalling DirectX 9.0c.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-30-2007, 15:02
You could try reinstalling DirectX 9.0c.



I'll try it,see if it works then..

TosaInu
07-30-2007, 19:14
Hello,

There are several revisions of DX 9.0c afaik. I've run into trouble myself too and am ever since clueless why they don't continue the alphabet.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-30-2007, 22:39
Hello,

There are several revisions of DX 9.0c afaik. I've run into trouble myself too and am ever since clueless why they don't continue the alphabet.

Argeed.:dizzy2:


what one do I download? so many lol :dizzy2:

TosaInu
07-30-2007, 22:43
Hello,

I use Dec 06 revision.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-31-2007, 23:48
Hello,

I use Dec 06 revision.


Can't Find it Tosa, can you point it out? (so many damn DirectX version, Jesus:dizzy2: )

TosaInu
08-01-2007, 00:11
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

Better than it was some years ago, but still a bit of a jungle indeed.

This is what I downloaded I think. Yes, looks like it.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=77bc0499-19d0-46b6-a178-033d9e6c626b&DisplayLang=en

What is your problem? If you have a newer DX, you can't just install.

This is a more recent one
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=cb7397f3-0949-487b-9247-8fee451bf952&DisplayLang=en

Edit: for me the MS server pops up can't find pages at times, but the provided URLs are correct, just try a few times again.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
08-01-2007, 01:21
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

Better than it was some years ago, but still a bit of a jungle indeed.

This is what I downloaded I think. Yes, looks like it.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=77bc0499-19d0-46b6-a178-033d9e6c626b&DisplayLang=en

What is your problem? If you have a newer DX, you can't just install.

This is a more recent one
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=cb7397f3-0949-487b-9247-8fee451bf952&DisplayLang=en

Edit: for me the MS server pops up can't find pages at times, but the provided URLs are correct, just try a few times again.

I think with my VI copy (mind you, I been using it since December 04), I think it is DX 9.0C or something... Or mabye it a older version..

It causes the lag in the SW Beta 8 Games I'm always in, thus is why I get drop, and I get those error messages (posted one pic of one of them eariler I think), dunno why I get them. I got a 256MB Radeon X1300 card ( I think) and can't find the right drivers for it (unless I downloaded them months ago, cause I remember I downloaded something).

Puzz3D
08-01-2007, 02:33
With my ATI 9800 Pro, I get very bad lag only in multiplayer games larger than 1v1 if I use a new video driver. I have to use the Catalyst 4.6 driver which is about 3 years old. Unfortuntely, you can't use that video driver with your ATI X1300.

Try lowering your AGP memory to 16 MB in the game options. That may have been suggested before, and you've already done it.

TosaInu
08-01-2007, 10:45
I think with my VI copy (mind you, I been using it since December 04), I think it is DX 9.0C or something... Or mabye it a older version..



Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

The DX that was shipped with VI, was DX 9.0a or b. It's one that caused some trouble iirc. Install the DX 9.0C Dec 06 revision (first link). It will surely work. Are you sure you still use that old DX from 04? Most modern games update your DX or they won't play. I recall BF wants a more updated DX than even the first DX 9.0 c.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
08-03-2007, 20:11
With my ATI 9800 Pro, I get very bad lag only in multiplayer games larger than 1v1 if I use a new video driver. I have to use the Catalyst 4.6 driver which is about 3 years old. Unfortuntely, you can't use that video driver with your ATI X1300.

Try lowering your AGP memory to 16 MB in the game options. That may have been suggested before, and you've already done it.

Screen Reslouitn I did, but not my VI AGP...... Intersting Puzz! I'm on VI now, I do a test 1v1 or 2v2 and see...:yes:

Flaxmac
08-31-2007, 03:54
Hi Guys,
Can anyone tell me where the tech tree is for Sam Wars, thanks.

R'as al Ghul
08-31-2007, 07:32
Hello Flaxmac,

I've moved your post here because it was OT in the other thread.
We don't have a dedicated techtree for Samurai Warlordsbut our techtree is very similar to the Shogun one, which can be downloaded from this site.
You can access all downloads via the "Files" link at the top of this forum.
Here's a direct link to the STW section:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82292
Download "officialtechtree.zip" for Shogun.
That should tell you the basics.

R'as

barocca
09-03-2007, 13:18
at this time there is still some polish to add to the tech tree ,
once that is done perhaps we'll make a proper neat tech tree.

I am almost set back up here, once i am i'll finalise the hero names lists

cheers
B

Orda Khan
09-11-2007, 20:34
Any news on the Mongol front yet?

.....Orda

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-17-2007, 19:11
may return this SUnday to Beta 8 (or 5?....) if school permits.. BF2 is killing me.


you guys making a mongol army??

TosaInu
09-17-2007, 19:41
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

STW MI had Mongol units. The plan from years back was that these may be added too.

It depends a bit I think. Time and really wanting to add it, but also whether the storage of units works (beta5 differs from beta8). It may be responsible for sync problems, maybe not.

Balancing the Mongols was hard in MI, for various reasons. It will be nice to give it another go with the VI stats. In STW there were only 2 bow slots. That's not enough really: footarchers, mounted Japanese and Mongol archers. The Mongol archers are very different from the other two.

The Mongol army is also supposed to be totally different from the Japanese. The Japanese army has strong infantry and strong cavalry. The Mongols have stronger cavalry and weak infantry (Korean forced to fight -> unwillingly).
Unfortunately the honorsellback allows to buy lots of cheap H0 mongol cavalry and mostly forget about buying infantry, the cavalry already performs great and will become even better during the battle due to battlefieldupgrades. So, instead of having a 40/60 cav/inf Mongol army where the more powerful cav and less powerful infantry balances the Japanese army, you end up with a more powerful Mongol mostly cav army. Naturally you couldn't cripple the Mongol cav too much.

VI should make it possible to get it right.

Puzz3D
09-17-2007, 20:12
The gameplay changes if the Mongols are introduced with better cav but weaker inf. The Japanese are limited to playing defensively in every battle because their cav is beaten by the Mongol cav. The Japanese have to rely on their inf, but after the ranged units have finished skirmishing, the Japanese inf cannot catch the Mongol cav, so they have to wait for the Mongols to attack them. The Japanese also cannot use cav to protect their ranged units, so they are at a disadvantage when skirmishing. Since the YS is the only Japanese threat to the Mongol cav, all the Mongols need is a single sword inf unit that can beat it, and the Japanese become completely nullified tactically. Japanese sword units will be easily defeated by the Mongol cav. Japanese archers and guns will be either outranged or equal in range to Mongol archers.

Orda Khan
09-17-2007, 23:12
In the old 103 mod, the exact opposite was achieved, the Mongols were pitifully weak. I did a little tweaking with the stats to the point where it was possible to win with either a Mongol or Japanese army. Given that VI has more options, it should be achievable

.....Orda

TosaInu
09-18-2007, 00:44
In the old 103 mod, the exact opposite was achieved, the Mongols were pitifully weak. I did a little tweaking with the stats to the point where it was possible to win with either a Mongol or Japanese army. Given that VI has more options, it should be achievable

.....Orda

Hello Orda,

The Mongol was very strong in 1.0 and 1.01. They were supposed to be fine in 1.02. And yes, they were weaker, but the battlefieldupgrades and honor sellback were still a problem. Some still considered them too strong.

103 mod made them even weaker, too weak perhaps. You had to work very hard for a win, quite the opposite from vanilla. The music is still great :)

Puzz3D
09-18-2007, 13:01
In the old 103 mod, the exact opposite was achieved, the Mongols were pitifully weak. I did a little tweaking with the stats to the point where it was possible to win with either a Mongol or Japanese army. Given that VI has more options, it should be achievable.
It can be done, but the Japanese will have to play defensively in every battle.

R'as al Ghul
09-18-2007, 14:01
Any news on the Mongol front yet?

.....Orda

No, I'm sorry Orda. barocca and I are both pretty busy.
It's still planned, though. (not much comfort probably?)

R'as

TosaInu
09-18-2007, 14:11
It can be done, but the Japanese will have to play defensively in every battle.

Hello Yuuki,

Isn't that typical and supposed to be how it should?

Orda Khan
09-18-2007, 16:15
103 mod made them even weaker, too weak perhaps. You had to work very hard for a win, quite the opposite from vanilla. The music is still great :)
Against a player of equal skill it was all but impossible to win. I agree about the music, it really created the mood. I had that music on my VI...Probably the best of the battlefield music scores.
I can't recall the exact changes I made but they were based on Korean Guardsman/Naginata, Korean Spearman/Yari Samurai. The MHC and JHC were same and MLC were slightly better than JCA to account for the Mongol lack of light spear cav and (worst part of MI) lack of archers. The Korean Skirmishers evened out the deficit between the KS and YS but were pretty helpless in melee.
The final stats worked very well in the tests I ran and it was possible to win with both factions, the Japanese certainly did not need to play defensively. If the HA units could fire on the move then this would be different of course but backing up JCA with YC was a viable tactic and with Nodachi, with no real counter other than cav made for some very good battles

......Orda

Puzz3D
09-18-2007, 17:21
If MHC = JHC, then you could make a stat which balanced Mongol/Japanese offensive/defensive chances. You couldn't make MHC = JHC in MI because the MHC were much more expensive than the JHC, and there was no way to change unit costs. In Samurai Wars, Mongols would get some additional cav types and archer types, and the MLC could be as fast or almost as fast as JYC. They had a javelin unit in MI which could be retained. While their best inf would be worse than the Japanese best inf, their low end inf units could be better to compensate. There is a space in the middle of the combat range of the Japanese inf units between no-dachi and naginata which would allow for that.

TosaInu
09-18-2007, 18:22
If MHC = JHC, then you could make a stat which balanced Mongol/Japanese offensive/defensive chances. You couldn't make MHC = JHC in MI because the MHC were much more expensive than the JHC, and there was no way to change unit costs.

You can make a clone where both armies have the same stats but different sprites. And you can try to make two different types of armies. The Mongol army was supposed to have stronger cavalry and weaker infantry. The idea was that the Mongols purchased certain amounts of cavalry and certain amounts of infantry so that the combined forces would equal the Japanese army in strenght. The second was that it should still be quite a challenge for the Japanese to beat the Mongols. A steppe like map and the right deployment favours the Mongols indeed (isn't that authentic for a mounted army?).

My tactic of choice is 50% infantry and 50% cavalry. The cavalry consists of 50% heavy (MHC) and 50% light (MLC).

The brittle infantry is deployed deep south and the MHC (one of them is general) is deployed behind them.

The MLC is split in two groups and setup North-West and North-East. The forward position allows me to see the opposing forces and the MLC will harass where possible. Harassment is missile attack, charges, tiring Japanese cavalry, anything. It doesn't matter much what happens. That's the RSI stage of the battle.

When the Japanese decide to stand, the Korean infantry/MHC will slowly close in at some point (usually when the MLC can't really harass anymore) and the spearthrowing skirmishers will erase some sprites. The rest of the infantry will make contact and the MHC will move to either the right and/or left, then behind the opposing army and charge. Surviving MLC will capture routed units.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-19-2007, 19:44
It can be done, but the Japanese will have to play defensively in every battle.

Yea, but provides more of a challage.

Puzz3D
09-19-2007, 20:54
Yea, but provides more of a challage.
No it doesn't. The Japanese will have a stategic gameplay limited to camping with corner camping providing the best result. The Mongol cav has nearly complete freedom of movement since it cannot be challenged by the Japanese cav. The Japanese player might as well take no cavalry.

A gameplay where attacking and defending chances are balanced provides the most challenge because the initiative can shift back and forth several times during a battles as a result of relatively small mistakes.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-20-2007, 15:00
No it doesn't. The Japanese will have a stategic gameplay limited to camping with corner camping providing the best result. The Mongol cav has nearly complete freedom of movement since it cannot be challenged by the Japanese cav. The Japanese player might as well take no cavalry.

A gameplay where attacking and defending chances are balanced provides the most challenge because the initiative can shift back and forth several times during a battles as a result of relatively small mistakes.

Mongol armies aren't invinable. Just because you would be taking a all horse army doesn't mean you run off and camp in a corner, get kill faster that way.

Just like someone who gets all Port Teppos, compared to his enemey who gets all Jap Teppo. His Jap Teppos have longer range, and can't be challaged but the guy's Ports unless they in close range. So does that mean he just doesn't get the cheaper Port teppos anymore Puzz or does he just corner camp?

TosaInu
09-20-2007, 16:51
Hello,

It is supposed to be difficult for the Japanese to defeat the Mongol army. I think it's authentic for a strong cav army to have the cards (especially when the terrain is right).

I don't think cornercamping is the only stategy for the Japanese, not the best even. What is important is to keep the units close together (the highly mobile MC will quickly eliminate lone units). To counter above tactic, I'ld move up to the Mongol inf/MHC army and engage that before the MLC weared me out.

Spears and lsam would be at least 50% of the army. You need some cav (not to fight duals with MC right on, but to flank, deal the final blow and chase) and HTH infantry too (such as nods. ni will work too, but their low speed defeats the other goal: reach the Mongol army in time. You'ld probably need wm, it's the right period, odd they are removed).

Puzz3D
09-20-2007, 20:34
To counter above tactic, I'd move up to the Mongol inf/MHC army and engage that before the MLC weared me out.
That didn't work in STW/MI, and it won't work in SW either. The Mongol ranged units will inflict heavy losses on the Japanese infantry as they advance. Once engaged, the Mongol cav will backstab the engaged Japanese units.

Puzz3D
09-20-2007, 20:41
Mongol armies aren't invinable.
Right if the Japanese play defensively.


Just because you would be taking a all horse army doesn't mean you run off and camp in a corner, get kill faster that way.
I said no cav not all cav. You won't get killed faster in a corner because there are no teppos in the Mongol era.


Just like someone who gets all Port Teppos, compared to his enemey who gets all Jap Teppo. His Jap Teppos have longer range, and can't be challaged but the guy's Ports unless they in close range. So does that mean he just doesn't get the cheaper Port teppos anymore Puzz or does he just corner camp?
Portuguese teppo are the same range as Japanese teppo. If you give the Mongols longer ranged archers, then camping won't work of the Japanese. All they will have left for a strategy is an infantry rush.

TosaInu
09-20-2007, 20:58
That didn't work in STW/MI, and it won't work in SW either. The Mongol ranged units will inflict heavy losses on the Japanese infantry as they advance. Once engaged, the Mongol cav will backstab the engaged Japanese units.

But when the Japanese camp, the MLC will have time to release all their arrows and they'll also charge when possible.

I didn't say it's easy, but when you manage to reach the Mongols while keeping your units together, so deny the MLC effective charges, you'll end up with more surviving units (because the MLC haven't released all the arrows yet) and you have a bigger chance to defeat the inf/MHC.

Not that I become speechless, but camping Japanese, that's what I hope for when playing.

Puzz3D
09-21-2007, 14:45
But when the Japanese camp, the MLC will have time to release all their arrows and they'll also charge when possible.
The Japanese archers can shoot back when not moving, and foot archers beat mounted archers.


I didn't say it's easy, but when you manage to reach the Mongols while keeping your units together, so deny the MLC effective charges, you'll end up with more surviving units (because the MLC haven't released all the arrows yet) and you have a bigger chance to defeat the inf/MHC.
If you manage to reach the Mongols because the Japanese have no speed advantage.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-21-2007, 14:53
Right if the Japanese play defensively.


I said no cav not all cav. You won't get killed faster in a corner because there are no teppos in the Mongol era.


Portuguese teppo are the same range as Japanese teppo. If you give the Mongols longer ranged archers, then camping won't work of the Japanese. All they will have left for a strategy is an infantry rush.



Really? from what I seen, Japanese teppos always shoot my Portuguse guys from a longer distance. Learn something new today.

Orda Khan
09-21-2007, 16:41
I don't know what stats you are referring to with your Mongol/Japanese discussion and neither v1.02 nor Mod 103 were particularly balanced.
As I stated above, I altered the 103 Mongol stats to a point where your arguments are not valid. The Japanese were quite capable of cav manoeuvres, JCA were not completely overpowered by MLC, only in melee and a covering YC could easily protect them. The Japanese have SA with greater range than KSk and better accuracy than MLC. KG and NI were about equal but YS would still defeat KS. That still leaves Nodachi that really had to be taken out by cav or javelins. I believe my MHC only had superiority over JHC because they were slightly faster, melee etc was the same. Considering the much lower cost, unit for unit, the Mongols were compelled to field significant infantry units, they simply could not afford too many expensive cav.
Since Toda made a Mod version 105 and another that really changed unit sizes and a host of other things, I named mine 107. I was very happy with the MP tests. I wish I still had the stats so you could see for yourselves

.....Orda

Togakure
09-21-2007, 17:17
the 47s played 1.05 Mongol games amongst ourselves often and had great fun. We used 1.05 pretty much exclusively for Mongol battles because we found it to be superior to 1.03 and especially 1.02 in regard to balance between the Japanese and Mongol units.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-21-2007, 18:04
I'll excuse myself from this debate, since I have no idea what you guys are talking about. :-)

TosaInu
09-22-2007, 22:05
The Japanese archers can shoot back when not moving, and foot archers beat mounted archers.

If you manage to reach the Mongols because the Japanese have no speed advantage.

Hello,

True.

Apart from the cavalry, the Mongols do not have a speedadvantage either.

I'm not talking about an all MC army (it will be fruitless to hunt 16 skirmishing MLC on a big map), that was not the intention of MI. The army had better cavalry and worse infantry and those had to be mixed.

The Japanese footarchers can indeed beat the MLC in a static missile duel. The MLC will be destroyed and the Japanese even have some archers left to fight the rest of the Mongol army.

The only thing I fear when facing the Japanese is that my MHC impales on the spearsamurai. The MLC arrows are for the spears, or for the nodachi (they have less armour and less of them makes it easier for my infantry vs the Japanese infantry).

To avoid the spears being shot by the MLC, the Japanese foot archers have to be far out. But when they are the MLC will charge them (of course it's nice to get rid of them quickly). There are two groups of MLC on both flanks and they'll do anything to make it easier for the second wave.

Move the entire Japanese army up, keep the units together, and don't give the Mongols the whole field and time.

TosaInu
09-22-2007, 22:59
Since Toda made a Mod version 105 and another that really changed unit sizes and a host of other things, I named mine 107. I was very happy with the MP tests. I wish I still had the stats so you could see for yourselves

.....Orda

I recall the 105 stats Orda. Toda stats was the other name for them if I'm not mistaken?

http://www.mizus.com/files/files/STW_WE/stats/ both the 106 and 105 are available here. Did you ever make 107 public or did you mail them to me?

Orda Khan
09-23-2007, 11:08
They were something I did during the time of RTW, I never made them available as a public download, not too many people are interested in the older games, especially MI. MI never was popular, even on the old EA server, most probably because of the imbalance of 1.02.
We had a few fun Mongol v Mongol battles with Mod 103, I remember.

There were very few decent games with RTW and I lost interest with MP. VI no longer worked with the GPU drivers I was using but STW and MI were fine, so I started a SP Mongol campaign using 103 stats and immediately I remembered how weak they were so I decided to have a go at balancing their stats.
Using 8000 koku as the standard, as we had in 103, I felt that making the strength differences smaller was the way to go and improved the Mongol infantry while also narrowing the deficit between Mongol and Japanese cavalry. Japanese always had the luxury of much cheaper units so the deficits could not be too narrow, obviously. Because of this, I gave MHC a speed advantage over JHC and MLC had a melee advantage over JCA still. Naginata and Korean Guardsmen were relatively similar, I do not remember if the KG may have had a slight speed advantage or not but their high cost prevented many from being fielded. Yari Samurai still had an upper hand over Korean Spearmen but not the massive advantage they had in 103. Korean Skirmishers were an important unit, if you used them well you could reduce Japanese numbers in order for your KS to become more effective. The Skirmishers still remained vulnerable in melee so they had to be protected.
Thunder Bombers were a 20 man unit again and useless if it rained. If it remained dry they were still unpredictable and could cost you the battle with indiscriminate kills.
No doubt there were a few areas that could have been tweaked and more MP tests would have highlighted them but there's not the interest. Overall, I though it played quite well.

I was only asking about the Mongol situation here because they were mentioned way back when Barocca was asking for possible units and making hero slots, I thought there may have been some progress

........Orda

Jochi Khan
09-24-2007, 16:42
From memory I believe Toda made the 105 stats and then later the 106 stats.
At the time he sent them to me for me to try them out and to give him some feedback. The 106 stats were never used but they were good.
I may have a copy of your 107 stats on my old PC Orda.

Grimmjow1982
01-07-2008, 12:40
Can this mod work without the the viking invasion expansion and the VI patch 2.01?

R'as al Ghul
01-07-2008, 12:54
Can this mod work without the the viking invasion expansion and the VI patch 2.01?

Hello Grimmjow1982,

i'm sorry but our mod needs the advancements that the Viking expansion brings. Only with Viking Invasion it's possible to add a campaign, like we do. I highly recommend the expansion anyway, it should be cheap to get and it's worth its money.

R'as

Nobunaga
01-18-2008, 12:05
I was reading old threads in the forums and i found plenty of talk about fatigue bug, moral circles bug, defense bug, corner bug...and other bugs in the MTW engine... so i was wondering how do u consider the MTW engine superior to STW one....?

CBR
01-18-2008, 14:30
Morale circles? IIRC one guy kept on rambling about circles but never seemed to explain what was wrong.

Only fatigue bug I'm familar with, are missile units being able to reload without causing fatigue if you put fire at will off just after they have shot, and then turn it on again when you know they are ready to shoot again. But that is really only seen slow firing units like crossbows and I dont think anyone has tested if its similar in STW (but most likely it is since its a small oversight by CA)

Not sure what defense bug is, but I know of one problem giving defense an advantage in bow/crossbow fights as there seem to be a permanent wind coming from defenders side that gives a bonus to their missile accuracy or power. In STW the wind direction/force was random while in MTW its not completely clear if the wind force is random.

That is a very annoying bug but OTOH it does not assist guns which is the mainstay missile unit in Samwars.

So why does some of us still consider MTW/VI engine to be better? Stuff like cav charge bug and red zoning is gone. Upgrades are no longer way too cheap, You no longer have a permanent -8 morale penalty after a general has been killed. Units now rout away from enemy units instead of just in a straight line back to defenders start line. There might be a few more things.

In STW it was not possible to change a simple thing like unit cost, so modding is better in MTW/VI.

So both engines have their fair share of bugs but the overall playing experience in MTW/VI IMO feels better but Im sure some prefer STW.


CBR

Puzz3D
01-18-2008, 14:48
I was reading old threads in the forums and i found plenty of talk about fatigue bug, moral circles bug, defense bug, corner bug...and other bugs in the MTW engine... so i was wondering how do u consider the MTW engine superior to STW one....?
Those aren't bugs, and those battle mechanics are the same in STW and MTW engines. You can't go into the red zone in MTW, but you can play on larger maps so it isn't an issue. The MTW engine is better because in MP the battlefield upgrades were removed, in SP the suicide general was fixed, and in both a unit routs away from the threatening unit. You can disengage a unit in the MTW engine, and the morale system is more complex especially the outnumbering penalty which takes into account the number of men in a unit and their quality. In STW, only the large flags were counted for outnumbering purposes, and it didn't matter if there was 60 men or only 1 man in the unit. There are 3 different quality levels of units for morale purposes, and units under ranged fire only suffer a morale penalty when they sustain casualties. In STW, a unit was under constant morale penalty the whole time it was targeted even if it sustained no casualties from the ranged fire. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them reducing the total killing power of the unit unlike STW where a unit would retain all of the unused ammo from the dead men in the unit and suffer no reduction in total killing power of its ranged weapon. So in MTW it's more important tactically not to loose men in a ranged unit, and the shooing phase of the battle is not prolonged. In the MTW engine you have shields, armor piercing, rank bonus for spears and artillery, although, we don't use those features in Samurai Wars. Castles are implemented better in MTW.

You have more control over the unit parameters in MTW. For instance, you can control the size of the anti-cav bonus or if a unit is disciplined or undisciplined, and more importantly you can have completely separate unit stats (except for projectile parameters) and separate unit sets in SP and MP. This is important because the optimal morale level for the units is not the same in SP and MP, and neither are the unit costs. In replays which are easy to save, you can see the morale and the fatigue state of each unit which helps in determining why a unit routed when watching a replay.

The only deficiencies I see in the MTW engine compared to the STW engine is a bug in the single player computer AI. Occasionally the AI will overlap multiple units which are under ranged attack. This can happen when the human's forces are stronger than the compuiter's army and the AI chooses not to advance on the human's army. Also, you cannot cross water in MTW, and trees are less dense. However, trees still have a strong influence on tactics (they are larger in diameter), so I don't really see that as a deficiency. It does create a visualization problem where a unit at the edge of the trees looks like it is beyond the trees but is in fact still inside the tree line.

Units rotate more slowly in MTW which some players consider a deficiency. If you look at STW they rotate too fast in my opinion. The optimal rotation speed is probably something in between the two games. The slow rotation speed in MTW means that unit formation is more important when moving a unit in some direction other than straight ahead. Wide formations are cumbersome to reposition, so using wedge or square for moving is more important.

There is bug in STW v1.12 with charge bonus and I don't know to what extent it affects STW/MI v1.02. In the older game the charge bonus doesn't work when cav charges any kind on infantry. ShingenKrypta and I discovered this when were were testing STW v1.12 during the development of Samurai Wars. This is why players used to call cavalry "mounted infantry" in STW. If you look at the charge bonuses in STW/MI v1.02 you'll see that we had to make them huge to have an effect. We had to cut these charge bonuses way back in Samurai Wars because the charge works much better in the MTW engine. Cav can push back infantry even if they are carrying a spear in MTW, but in STW spears were never pushed back by cav.