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View Full Version : can crusaders ever live up to expectation???



JAG
08-16-2001, 05:34
we have all seen with mongol invasion that soooo much (and i mean so much) expectation was put on it that it has failed to give all that was wanted.even little things turned into massive things (for example the f1 screen), that ppl r ending up not bothering to get it, at the end of the day it is a good even great game! take it 4 what it is not punish it for what it is not! so i am asking do u think this game has any chance of living up to all the expectation that is going to be put on it? i personnaly think it stands no chance but i would like ur opinions! (it might be true that no game lives up to expectation 100% but i feel alot of ppl have been unimpresed with MI than other games i have been with)

thnx
JAG

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

MagyarKhans Cham
08-16-2001, 16:09
the damn game turned into a buy and rush fantasy game... thats all

Anssi Hakkinen
08-16-2001, 19:02
Deleted a double post.

I find this whole scenario disturbingly resembling that which happens every time (every single time) a new version of Half-Life: Counter-Strike is released. Enormous amounts of flames are flooded onto the message boards (we're more restrained here, but you get the point), everyone is generally unhappy with most if not all that has been changed, and blow what negative stuff there really is far out of proportion. Then there are those inevitable "I'm never going to play this game again, you've cheated me for the last time" rants.

This goes on for a week or two. Eventually, the storm subsides, most if not everyone quietly note they can still play the game and have fun doing so, and the people who restrainedly express a positive opinion become more and more abundant. Then, when a new version is released, everyone says the old one was far better... again.

Although we're a bit more intellectual about it, that is basically what happened with the original release, what is happening right now, and what (I have no doubt) will happen with the Crusader: TW release. My theories as to the cause are vague, but mostly revolve around the concept that it is simply impossible to improve on a really good game without causing a storm of opinions against the fact that anything was *changed* in the first place. Whatever the cause, it dissuades developers and other that kind of people from participating pretty effectively - but everyone will still buy the game, which alone is sufficient to ensure that it will be regarded as succesful, and indeed good.

I will probably love CTW. Many other people will hate it. But despite all this, it shouldn't bar the developers from patching those things which need patching (

Whitey
08-17-2001, 04:01
From a purely technical point of view, CA will have a lot to deal with,

increased strategic map,

better diplomacy (please tell me thats on the list again, it might make it through for Total War 7 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

Huge amount of troop types, leading to massive play-balance issues

Castle Seiges, I don't think they could do justice to a crusader castle outside FMV.

Better modelling of Religion,

MP campaign, no - stupid idea...what was I thinking???

It does seem that the engine may start to creak at the seams, some people will remember Sid Meier's Gettysburg!, and how Antietam and then Waterloo slowed the beautiful smooth RT engine into a jerky monster - could happen here if they are not careful, thats if it isn't too buggy to play (Nap1813/14) after all that is what we must compare it with, it being the closest thing that comes to it - Shogun worked as a TB/RTS game while only satisfying the RTS players, but then the political nature of Japan was suited to the 'simple' method, however to produce a model of the crusades requires, no, demands a more advanced strategy map due to the feuding nature of both sides and the sheer scale of the thing.

I hope but I do not expect, I have expected too much in the past...

Whitey
08-17-2001, 04:03
hey - I am Samurai - I must prepare to 'die for my leige-lord and my honour' immediatly!

KumaRatta Yamamoto
08-17-2001, 11:39
No game can really live up to the expectations of "maniacs" like us.

We will dissect this game, like we did the original and the EX-pack, pointing out all the small or more important faults.

We will complain about all the items that could have been included to make it a better game (or at least to our personal taste).

I do think however that Crusaders will be an even better game than the warlord edition, like the warlord édition is better than the original.

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KumaRatta Yamamoto Sonkei soshite yuki Ratta Ichizoku. Come and visit us : www.rattaclan.homestead.com (http://www.rattaclan.homestead.com)

PSYCHO
08-17-2001, 13:02
I for one love Warlords. I have noticed a lot of little refinements as well as the obvious mods.

The thing that impresses me with STW is not just the fantastic / enjoyable gameplay ..but all the little extra touches that add to the feel of the period and culture. Regarding CTW..if the Dreamteam do the same with CTW I'll be a very very happy chappy. If they improve on STW with better diplomacy options (maybe graphics ?)...well I'll have to invest in some sort of sanitary napkins !! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

STW has the legacy of a "ground breaker" in the genre. I believe the Dreamteam & EA will endeavour to sustain that initiative with CTW, despite increased competition.
In short ...I believe we will find CTW "satisfactory" ! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers

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PSYCHO HOJO / PSYCHO SO

JAG
08-17-2001, 19:29
i am sure i will love warlords if i could get it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif. . . but that another story!

i totaly agree with u kuma and psycho. . .no game ever lives up to expectation. . but i felt that warlords was being made to look as a dissapointment much more than other games that i have been with. . . . and to be honest i think it will be one of THE best games of the year!! so we should not make such a fuss! CA have done a wonderful job in making it and lots and lots of ppl r unhappy. . y????? this i would like to know . . is it coz we r expecting too much as S:TW was such a groundbreaking game and this is not??? i don't know. . . .

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

SlyClone2k
08-17-2001, 20:39
Weren't we gifted somewhat by Shogun? Wasn't it the first game we all have ever played that not only lived upto our expectations but exceeded them?
I've been playing allsorts of games in the last 12 months but none of them held my attention in the way that Shogun managed.
I am not looking forward to Mongol Invasion or Crusader because of hype, just because it provides variety, different strategy, different things to play with, perhaps most of all it will mean that I carry on being part of one of the better communities I have been a part of on the web.

PSYCHO
08-18-2001, 01:04
HERE HERE !

Cheers

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PSYCHO HOJO / PSYCHO SO

Thomas Ressler
08-18-2001, 15:17
Good points, all! I love the new version of the game and can't wait for Crusader to come out. I'm sure I'll love it too. Now... how about... Native American Total War... You get to choose your tribe and get to wage war against the hordes of white devils coming from across the big water. Whee! That would be cool! Then you could have a sequel (or pre-quel?) Aztec Total War! Man! I'm on a roll! Think I'll get a commission or a royalty? ;-) Quote Originally posted by Anssi Hakkinen:
[B]Deleted a double post.

I find this whole scenario disturbingly resembling that which happens every time (every single time) a new version of Half-Life: Counter-Strike is released. Enormous amounts of flames are flooded onto the message boards (we're more restrained here, but you get the point), everyone is generally unhappy with most if not all that has been changed, and blow what negative stuff there really is far out of proportion. Then there are those inevitable "I'm never going to play this game again, you've cheated me for the last time" rants.

This goes on for a week or two. Eventually, the storm subsides, most if not everyone quietly note they can still play the game and have fun doing so, and the people who restrainedly express a positive opinion become more and more abundant. Then, when a new version is released, everyone says the old one was far better... again.

Although we're a bit more intellectual about it, that is basically what happened with the original release, what is happening right now, and what (I have no doubt) will happen with the Crusader: TW release. My theories as to the cause are vague, but mostly revolve around the concept that it is simply impossible to improve on a really good game without causing a storm of opinions against the fact that anything was *changed* in the first place. Whatever the cause, it dissuades developers and other that kind of people from participating pretty effectively - but everyone will still buy the game, which alone is sufficient to ensure that it will be regarded as succesful, and indeed good.

I will probably love CTW. Many other people will hate it. But despite all this, it shouldn't bar the developers from patching those things which need patching (

Algesan
08-20-2001, 21:33
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
the damn game turned into a buy and rush fantasy game... thats all[/QUOTE]

Cham, if you think MI on MP is bad, just wait until you see what Knight units do to your bum...........

A Nerd
08-22-2001, 07:30
I think that part of the reason that the MI didn't live up to expecttions is that we are all expecting too much. The game is excellent and there is only so much that can be done with code...besides I think that some of the STW ideas and energies were being put into the sequel even before the MI was released...

Vanya
08-23-2001, 00:55
If you can't burn people at the stake... what fun will this game be?

LordTed
08-23-2001, 01:56
Perhaps u expect too much, what is their budget for such a project?

Nelson
08-23-2001, 01:58
MI/WE HAS lived up to my expectations. Bear in mind that I keep my expectations reasonable. I dislike ahistoric crossbowmen but expecting them to disappear because I don't like them would have been UNreasonable. Expecting the MP campaign would have been UNreasonable too given what we know about it.

So yeah, I expect Crusaders to be decent and satisfying. Maybe even great.

Moriboy
08-23-2001, 20:07
Good post Anssi! As one who once played & enjoyed "Pong", I'm still in awe of what the creators of STW have done with AI. I don't have the WE yet but I'm certain to have a blast learning to counter the various Mongol troops. It seems a fair bet that Crusader will be yet another stunning achievement for CA. Of the complaints I've heard with respect to the WE so far: excessive morale, strange reinforcement placement, ect, I'd ask: since when was battle ever a completely predictable enterprise? Again, I don't have the WE edition, but I've had formations of reinforcement enemy troops appear in my rear just as I begin the march to assault a castle, and last night I watched a group of 85 honor 3 Yari Samurai die to the 7th man before fleeing. The last, isn't at all uncommon for troops with good to high honor. I'm not sure how much better a game AI could actually get without real human emotion, guile, and shrewd tactics. In any case, it's probably safe to say that the realtime games of the future will continue to strive for those attributes. I for one can't bring myself to complain in the face of greatness.

Lord Aeon
08-26-2001, 00:21
I'm also quite excited about the new TW game, and was not particularly unimpressed by an expansion to the best strategy game i've ever played.

In other words, even if the new game was only AS good as STW, it will be a great success to me, and i will most like log MANY hours playing it.

You gotta admit, this new game is certainly ambitious.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

clink
08-26-2001, 03:05
Can we all expect CTW to live up to TW1? Well I say that would depend on two things.
-The constructive realistic input we can provide CA.
-The tech CA has or has not to give demanding gamers like our selfs wish for.
I my self hope CA won't stray to far off the path in future TW editions. I for one like Shogun for what it is, meat and potatoes on the battle field slice em and dice em, with out the draged out romantic love scenes we war mongers hate to be interupted with.
What would be some of the things I would like to see in CTW if possible of course?
- Better graphics pertaining to units
- The same spiecial effects we already have, like the rain and thunder storms, weather effects.
- Simular battle field terain and graphics, better if possible of course.
- Siege weapons, catapolts, cannon, siege towers, ext.
- Larger castles,more realistic sieges.
- Better politacal features? perhaps.

I'm sure there may be many more, but I think this is the kind of input CA would surely appreciat, but I would'nt count on every wish.
As for one who has just gotten back into computers after a 6 year absents, only about 4 months ago, I was awe struck when I played Shogun for the first time. To see computer gamming advance to this level is impressive to say the least about Shogun. Which leaves me to wonder, if TW is still around in 6 years, what will transpire?
Being a newbee, FNG, or any thing you guys would like to refere me as, I hope I can rely on some tech or other support from you more experenced guys on the forum. If my newbeeness offends some of you guys, well...

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'EAT YOUR WEAKEST MAN'

[This message has been edited by KumaRatta Yamamoto (edited 08-26-2001).]

KumaRatta Yamamoto
08-26-2001, 06:51
Sorry clink, i had to edit out your last phrase, forum rules about language, vulgarity and not being "civil".



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KumaRatta Yamamoto Sonkei soshite yuki Ratta Ichizoku. Come and visit us : www.rattaclan.homestead.com (http://www.rattaclan.homestead.com)

Hirosito
09-05-2001, 01:04
I think if Crusaders achieves what it sets out to do it will inevitably be better than Shogun (except if you are an absolute fan of the japanese setting).

Looking at what I've heard it's gonna be great.

Think about it every country has different units( probably not each and every one) in my mind that's an immediate bonus.

THey want to "improve" diplomacy.....well that won't be hard we all know but if they pull it off it'll be great.

Castle sieges we all know about.
These seem to be the main points right now if CA implements them adequately the game will be much better than Shogun.
But I guess this also has something to do with the direction everyone personally wants this game to go. I for one would hope that someday Shogun and Civilisation could merge to the ultimate real-time strategy turn-based diplomacy game.

Btw does anyone know the boardgame "diplomacy"? Mix that with Shogun and your off!!

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

PSYCHO
09-07-2001, 13:12
Quote Originally posted by Hirosito:
I for one would hope that someday Shogun and Civilisation could merge to the ultimate real-time strategy turn-based diplomacy game.[/QUOTE]

Yup !!. Though my ideal would be EU / EUII & Shogun. EU leaves Civ for dead as far as diplomacy / strategic ops. Have often commented how the merging of these great games would produce a truly emersive classic !

Cheers



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PSYCHO HOJO / PSYCHO SO

theforce
09-08-2001, 06:17
Well l expected it to be a better game but!
There are some things that got improved fromt he first game.
The sound is greatly imporved with the mongol music being top. Also the starting FMV is amazing. THe other FMV's are badly made but l think is was us pushing them to finish the game.
There are some fantasy elements into the game. I think that the expansion pack will make the developers avoid any more mistakes in Totalwar 2.
Totalwar 2 will be totally realistic l think. Wait and see.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

JAG
09-08-2001, 08:24
wish i had ur optimisom force http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

lol this thread come along a bit. . .started it ages ago! lol i guess i am used to off topic! hehe

------------------

Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

clink
09-08-2001, 11:31
Expectaitons?....glass is half full.

Major_Dump Asai
09-09-2001, 02:26
BUT WILL THERE BE NINJAS IN CRUSADER?

JAG
09-14-2001, 06:17
lol i think there will not be ninja's but things like them maybe. . ? . . sorry i am a pessimist. . glass is half EMPTY!!!!! sorry my friends don't like this in me either it the way i am. . so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------

Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

Mori Gabriel Syme
10-16-2001, 23:50
When reading this thread, I am reminded of something my wife told me yesterday. She's a fantasy gamer. Someone on one of the boards she reads suggested that, having done the Faerun world of D&D, developers should try the Dragonlance world. A developer replied with a lengthy post, but it boiled down to this: In return for doing so, we would get a world of grief from D&D 3rd edition rules fanatics, people complaining that our Dragonlance world wasn't pure Dragonlance, & people complaining about every conceivable nit. In short, the fans make it not worth the trouble.

I love STW; having an interface simple yet power enough to beable to command a large army in a 3D terrain in real time still astounds me. Some things can be improved for CTW, but even if it is only as good as STW, I'll be opening my wallet. Grand strategy is my other genre of passion, so if they improve the diplomacy model, I'll be there with bells on!


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The Taisho Who was Thursday

MagyarKhans Cham
10-18-2001, 07:04
u just pointed the problem algesan

as tw history showed

for every 2 steps forward (new total war game) we do 1 step back

just a keen group of developers and enuf budget could bring us a good game

but they couldnt even well balance 11-20 units, so how will they balance over 50...

we better have 20 balanced units than 50 outbalanced, since if unoits are outbalanced eventually we play with just the strongest of them and reducing the 50+ to 10.

just giving warnings for attention

Nelson
10-19-2001, 21:31
Unit balance should be a non-issue except with regards to cost. The units should exist and behave as they did historically. Some will be much better than others. The rock, scissors, paper thing should be chucked where history does not support it. Game balance is important but designers should not really on unit attributes to attain it. The whole unit balance issue is a symptom of multiplayer myopia and the search for a chesslike battle experience. So what if you don't want to use all of the units online?

Hirosito
10-19-2001, 23:43
hear, hear

fact is some countries are crappy others are not if you want a challenge play with a crappy one if not squash your opponents like it was done bach in the day

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

Whitey
10-20-2001, 22:37
CA say that a lot of the new units will be more speacialised units - I envisage units that could ONLY be used in High Koku games (over 10000) and more unit options at the lower end of the scale (YA stlye)

we've also got artillery to deal with, and I pray that there is more than one trype of it.

I also see that some of the units will be more or less the same but with a slightly different balance (cost/power) so we end up with a far subtler mix of armies based more around personal preference...I am really looking foward to it, it will take a long time to find the 'best' units if we ever do...thats where the fun will be (assuming CA don't make plainly stupid balance errors and we must remember they have real expierence of doing just this now so we can expect a 'veteran' job this time)

LordTed
10-21-2001, 00:51
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
the damn game turned into a buy and rush fantasy game... thats all[/QUOTE]


Agreed

Scotticus TheGreat
11-03-2001, 00:40
Quote Originally posted by JAG:
lol i think there will not be ninja's but things like them maybe. . ? . . sorry i am a pessimist. . glass is half EMPTY!!!!! sorry my friends don't like this in me either it the way i am. . so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[/QUOTE]

In response to the pessimist: more power to you, here's my thoughts.

If your a Daimyo and you say your going to lose a battle and you do, then you can say your right. If you say your going to lose and win, no one will care, cuz you won.

On the other hand:

If you say your going to win and lose, you'll look like a fool. If you say your goint to win and DO win, then no one will care because they won. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So that's why it pays to be a pessimist



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Life doesn't seem through bad with Led Zepplin floating through the ears

Vanya
11-06-2001, 02:16
Gah! Wasn't there a sect of assassins rolling around the middle east back then?

clink
11-06-2001, 06:59
Yes...Ali Baba and the fourty thieves.

[This message has been edited by clink (edited 11-06-2001).]

clink
11-06-2001, 12:56
Arab Assassins http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/assassin.htm

JAG
11-21-2001, 06:54
one of the many advantages scotticus http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Oh my God. . . . . Just lay me Down!


WarlordWarrior