ADVICE: limit the unitsize of elite troops

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i would like to see small sized units for e.g. mounted knights like we have with the mongols now.

what u think?

[Khan7]

I dunno. The switch of MHC to 48 men in v1.02 was a highly experimental move. I don't personally feel there is enough evidence to say that this is necessarily the way to go with the current engine and game structure.

Matt

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I agree with you Khan7, the change to Mongol cav really is not the way to go given the tweakability of the units. As for limiting the size of "elite" units - this was already done with Kensai and Battlefield Ninja. But, if one is going to do this - it is still necessary to balance them. Kensai for example are underpowered in the long term for an elite "unit". They have glaring weaknesses that are exploitable from the outset of battle. Legends such as these should not be such. Should they be indestructible? No - but nor should they fall to the first Yari horsemen to charge them either.

Personally, I think the real key is going to be defining an effectiveness value for each unit as it faces other units. A key such as this would allow for bonuses and penalties to be applied on a case by case basis in battle - resulting in much more accurate modeling of the warfare of the various time periods.

I have a hope that one day a game in this genre can truly model accurate warfare of the 13th-16th century. One that can apply a bonus to the spearman that faces a samurai archer in melee at a short distance - but also reverses the bonus and gives it to the Archer who, with his katana, slips past the spear's guard and closes to his foe. To do this with each individual combat, each unit, across a battlefield with multitudes - then I will sit, smile, and play till I grow so funky my wife gives me an ultimatum - get up and shower or get out of the house!
ROFLMAO!!!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Khan7]

I personally think that the current low-level combat simulation engine is perfectly set for the time being. Before going in and making it a whole lot more complex for nebulous gains (in the RDM such things as you are talking about, BSM, were handled fine with the current system), there should be some fundamental alterations, such as making melee more flexible, allowing units to fall back, slowing down attrition, etc.

Unless they do something about units falling back and slowing attrition down a bit, I don't believe I will be back to buy TW2, because it would be lacking an entire critical dimension and would be a fundamentally tasteless tactical engine.

Matt

[Funkybax]

I don't like the new 48 cavs.
Standard numbers are ok to me.
But wait...
in the strategic screenshot there are units with 50, 60, 100 men.
Bye.
Funkybax

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i was nt talking about balancing but just what looked nice on the field... i mean cav units should be smaller than the farmer units.

so 960 h2 knights are fighting 960 h7 farmers

that is kinda silly

480 knights just feels better i guess

[Funkybax]

I think is not silly if the cav cost like 10 peasants to buy and mantain.
Bye.
Funkybax

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Elite units are rare. Peasants are abundant.
It's not just a matter of money. It's a matter of hierarchy, birth, skill.

In an authentic game this should be expressed.




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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Instead of limiting the size of elite troops, maybe limit how many elite troops units one can have in each army (percentage) or for SP players in each faction (percentage or maximum).

I think that elite troops, we're elite http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, much "stronger" than other troops and this must show on the battlefield.

On the other hand no army was composed of nearly only elite troops like we can have in STW.

[Nelson]

Bingo, Sir Kuma! That's the way to handle limited availability troop types. It's how monks should be in Shogun.

Once you've raised, say, 12 knight units, you can't get any more new ones and must rebuild the ones you have. This ceiling could be tailored to each faction.

[Khan7]

Well, I'm all for something like Nelson is suggesting, if they can fit it into a comprehensive logistical model.

But limiting percentage?? That's ridiculous. Throughout history we see all varieties of engagements with all sorts of different percentages, including battles such as the First Battle of Tannenberg where the entire force of the Holy Order was made up of knights.

But limiting the number based on area controlled and a few other factors.. that makes good enough sense. But you would need to already have a solid logistical model, which I don't believe they are including for TW2.

It would be smarter to simply make grunts more desirable for the reasons they actually were more desirable-- because you need grunts. The Order lost big-time at Tannenburg.

..

Anyway, I suppose my main aversion to messing with unit sizes stems from my devotion to modification of the current TW, and the initial lack of this modding capacity, as well as the continued absence of the ability to mod unit cost, which is a prerequisite for any modification of unit size.

But I still maintain that once you get into messing with unit sizes, it just opens up too many variables, especially with the limited number of units per side that we see with the Shogun engine. It is much cleaner to balance same-size units. I wouldn't rule size-modding out, but I'd say it's a lot more complex than just picking numbers and setting them. If the actual game designers do it though, with all the tools and knowledge and manpower they have at their disposal.. we might be able to trust it.

Matt

[BSM_Skkzarg]

How about this - each "province" or area you own can support a certain number of certain troop types - up to a maximum. Thus, if you were to hold, in a S:TW game - Mutsu - it would have an assigned value - how many troops and of what types it could "support". "Support" would go into a pool - so should Mutsu support 3 SA, 5 YA, 2YS and 1 YC - the total number of these troops you could support would increase.

on second examination - I do see some problems here - but nothing that could not be worked out.
thoughts?

Qapla

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Two units of 30 knights each have far more tactical options than one of 60.

A limitation of how many of a unittype can be present in an army is not good. In teamgames one will often divide roles: middle guy has defensive infantry, left flank has mainly cav, right has shockinfantry.

When one makes peasants and knights the same unitsize and it has to be balanced, one will end up with too powerful peasants or unrealistic weak knights.

Difference: case 20 knights left and 40 peasants left (both suffered casualties from missilefire). When both units are same size and balanced as such, the peasants will likely win. One knight has much better fightingpower than 2 peasants. The knight should win here, and quite easily. Elite units should have very good combat and be limited in unitsize.

One could say that the knights suffered 40 casualties and that a smaller unit would be completely destroyed, this is not true. A small unit is much harder to hit with missiles than a big one.

Units of 1 man aren't that great (with some bad luck the entire unit gets killed right away), but small groups are definately good and realistic.



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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Nelson]

I would not favor limiting the unit composition army by army. By faction yes but the actual ratio should be left up to the player IMO. Balancing should occur at the strategic level for SP. In MP the unit cost/power balance is everything but in a campaign not all factions need be equal tactically. Other circumstances can be used to equalize the chances to win.

[LordTed]

Making the best units smaller will make the chance of an mp rush less, if the new game is like stw we will see rushers.

[Khan7]

During my short time playing online, of all the people that beat me, and of all the problems I had, none of them were rushers.

Matt

[Funkybax]

"How about this - each "province" or area you own can support a certain number of certain troop types - up to a maximum. Thus, if you were to hold, in a S:TW game - Mutsu - it would have an assigned value - how many troops and of what types it could "support". "Support" would go into a pool - so should Mutsu support 3 SA, 5 YA, 2YS and 1 YC - the total number of these troops you could support would increase.
on second examination - I do see some problems here - but nothing that could not be worked out.
thoughts?

Qapla"

I agree.
Think to a possible units pool determined by the province you have.
And VERY IMPORTANT you can have special units bounded to provinces. Longbowmen from Wales, Camels from Egypt and so on.

[ShadesWolf]

After further thoughts
how about a merge unit command (in games)

So say, All units enter the game as squads of 60, but u have the ability to merge units, so say for example, you can merge 3 units of peasants, to make one unit of 180, and then control these as one unit. (and to stop any programming problems, you can only merge like units - so u couldn't merge a h6 cav with an h1 peasant erc.)

I dont know how hard this would be to programme......

This would allow u to control large armies, in one battle - without having to many units to move

OR

Maybe use a general/ commander and allocate units the that commander, then when u move one unit in his command they all move.

[solypsist]

limit the elite troops
for whatever reasons
it just makes sense

(looks like a haiku!)

[Hirosito]

lol soly except fo the 2nd line which is not quite prophetic enough

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Jaguara]

I like the idea that certain lands (perhaps with certain structures) could support certain numbers of certain units.

I strongly dislike the percentage idea though...it is just silly in application.

Lets say that you have the percentage rule...what happens then if the army fights and everything but the elite units get killed off? Well then you have a 100% elite force which breaks your rules...how do you handle that? I for one, do not wish to micro-manage my armies to that level.