Faction List Discussion

[Abe Froman]

Opening this thread for those who wish to discuss the faction list. I don't want the main thread to get cluttered with proposed unofficial lists and people get confused. :juggle2:

[Antagonist]

I take it some degree of jest is intended in that rather controversial classification of national religion?

EDIT: Also, as discussion of the sticky thread, I'd just like to compliment MTR on at least recognising that there are a lot more then 31 "factions" in Europe at this time, even if they game engine and development constraits prevent them from depicting all of them as such.

Antagonist

[Abe Froman]

Since I can't seem to edit posts and only can post once every 300 seconds or something, I had to split that other list off. Also closed it to prevent any confusion with the official list.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I think the Livonian order and the Teutonic order will be redundant unless you do a regional baltic mod. How about Christian Nubia/Makuria? This Christian African nation influenced by Byzantium in the early middle ages but isolated would make things interesting for the egyptian player. A maritime power that could be considered is the Knights of St-John. After the fall of outremer this organization performed acts of piracy on muslim shipping, anmd held strongholds on rhodes, cyprus, malta against the mamlukes, ottomans and timurids.

[The Celt]

I'd rename Transoxania to Khwarizmids since they owned the region at that time and were an important vassal to the Seljuqs(Like Parthia in RTR/EB to the Seleukids)A simple name-change is all that I ask for.:2thumbsup:

PS:Yay Ireland!! :beam:

[CaesarAugustus]

How is it possible that you can exceed the 31 faction limit?

[The Celt]

How is it possible that you can exceed the 31 faction limit?
Que? :inquisitive: Nobody said anything about the 31 faction limit. Check the faction list sticky and you'll see they only go up to 26.(26 is less than 31, thus, no one broke the limit.)

[Antagonist]

Actually there are 26 factions and then another 26 "AI factions" I'm not sure what that actually entails, but it's nice to see recognition that just because you can only have 30 factions doesn't mean the rest of Europe are "rebels" (How the hell could places like Sweden or Ireland be construed as "rebels" in 1080? Rebels against who?)

Antagonist

[Abe Froman]

I'd rename Transoxania to Khwarizmids since they owned the region at that time and were an important vassal to the Seljuqs(Like Parthia in RTR/EB to the Seleukids)A simple name-change is all that I ask for.:2thumbsup:

PS:Yay Ireland!! :beam:


The names on the list are not necessarily the names that will appear in game. They are just for lack of a better term, common names and likely close to what I am using in the coding. Don't want to be messing with unicode characters and such in the data files.

[Abe Froman]

How is it possible that you can exceed the 31 faction limit?

It requires alot of work, a large map, and reducing the number of playable factions... :dizzy2:

As we get things coded and into a playable beta state we will release more details on how the extra factions work.

[Abe Froman]

Actually there are 26 factions and then another 26 "AI factions" I'm not sure what that actually entails, but it's nice to see recognition that just because you can only have 30 factions doesn't mean the rest of Europe are "rebels" (How the hell could places like Sweden or Ireland be construed as "rebels" in 1080? Rebels against who?)

Antagonist

It means that depending on how things play out in game there could be around 50 factions for a player to interact with in some way. We are trying to stay away from tying faction emergence to a specific date. Rather I am hoping that most emerging factions are tied to a certain set of conditions.

An example would be constantinople being sacked by a catholic faction should cause the latin empire to emerge. If constantinople is not sacked by the catholics then you may never see that faction in the game...

[Sandouras]

Could the total realism map expand to china and therefore have more cultures like chinese, mongols (starting from Mongolia), Thibet, etc?

[Vazul's Ghost]

An example would be constantinople being sacked by a catholic faction should cause the latin empire to emerge. If constantinople is not sacked by the catholics then you may never see that faction in the game...

How would you implement an approximate historical accuracy in relation to dates. Often comstantinople gets sacked in the first 100 years of the game.

[Sandouras]

Who was that that you refer too, that had lead poored into his eyes for treason? I think i heard this before!

[Oakwarrior]

Any way to make the Livonian Order a playable faction? :beam:

[Oakwarrior]

I can't edit my posts.. O.o
Anyway... I s'pose Estonians are out of the question, right?

[Vazul's Ghost]

Who was that that you refer too, that had lead poored into his eyes for treason? I think i heard this before!

Vazul was one of the magyar (hungarian) pagan nobles who rebelled against the christian king saint Istvan and his fledgling christian state in the 11th century. That was his punishment. However, many punishments like it have been used in the past, particularly in the roman times so you could have heard it anywhere.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I think having at least two mongol factions would be appropriate, like the golden horde and the il-khans. these two states fought each other, the golden horde accepted islam earlier wheras the il-khans allied to the armenians and even hospitaler knights.

As i said before the livonian order is too much if there is already a teutonic order. Better to have an Order of St-John as a mostly naval power.

Christian Nubia would make things interesting for the egyptian player as well as the christian west, a potential ally during the crusades, if you can make contact

[Bayard]

What about Brittany and Pisa as non-playable "factions" ?
I understand why the Ottomans are non-playable, but will the Seldjuk Turks enjoy the same units at the end of the period? (would be a shame if they couldn't)

[Milovan]

I know you said that you'll release more info on how the 'minor' factions will work once the beta is released, but I just have one question. How is that issue 'handled', meaning would it be possible for someone with some skill to exchange factions between the playable ones and the 'minor' ones, for example make Serbia or Portugal playable instead of, for example, Scotland or Norway, so that the number of 'major' factions stays the same? If it could be done without messing up the mod by editing some files maybe you could attach a tutorial to the release? Your faction list is THE BEST possible and I'm not complaining about that, but there's a lot of people ot there who'd like a chance to play some of the factions that didn't make the 'playable' list. Of course I know very little about modding, this is just a random thought. So how 'bout it?:bounce:

[King Orko]

Does Someone know what the hell are the AI factions? are these rebels? are these non playable factions? are these playable factions? what are these things?!!!

[Milovan]

Does Someone know what the hell are the AI factions? are these rebels? are these non playable factions? are these playable factions? what are these things?!!!


Dude, every faction, other than the one you're playing with, is controlled by the AI. What the faction list reffers to as 'AI factions' are the ones you can't play with, so they're AI in every game you play. Like the hordes, Aztecs and the Papacy in vanilla.

[Orda Khan]

This new playable roster has lost the east/west appeal of the original ideas. I see nothing exceptional anymore, it looks like a slightly expanded vanilla. What a shame

....Orda

[Milovan]

This new playable roster has lost the east/west appeal of the original ideas. I see nothing exceptional anymore, it looks like a slightly expanded vanilla. What a shame

....Orda

Totally. The roster is the best only because it's got the most popular factions. I tried kissing up to them in my post, but there's no response yet, so I give up...

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

the new list is up for discussion. if you think it needs changing state your case. i like it, in any case the new administrators of the mod are inviting opinions, unlike the previous group

[Milovan]

the new list is up for discussion.

It is? :inquisitive:

Well, there's really ONE big flaw there: There are three factions in the British Isles, two are playable. There are two factions in Scandinavia, both playable. There are three factions in the Balkans and NONE are playable. That's just unfair, I mean they're minor factions with only one region each, they'll be cannon fodder for the Hungarians and the Rhomaioi. Personally, I'd rather see ANY of the three Balkan states playable instead of Scotland. I got nothing against them and I understand why people have sympathies for them, it's just that they spent all their years fighting the English and their border only slightly changed during that time, while Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia fought amongst themselves as well against other kingdoms and empires. At least one should be playable.

Oh, yeah, the Iberian peninsula. There are undoubtedly many arguments for the inclusion of Aragon as playable, but Portugal, which later became a major colonial power, is AI. I can't shake the feeling that Aragon was made playable at the expense of Portugal, but I'm probably wrong.

[Milovan]

To heck with this Junior Member status. :furious3:

Minor error in my post. Three factions in Scandinavia, two playable. Didn't see Sweden there.

[Kruniac]

Someone should really decrypt the game's executable to remove the faction limit hardcoding, as well as a few other things.

Before anyone starts whining about "legalities", look at the VAST improvements to Jagged Alliance 2 that were made. People have been cracking the hell out of that game to improve it, and should do the same with this awesome game.

As for the faction list, take a look at Europa Universalis for a list of factions availible during the 1400-1800 period. While that might not fit exactly with MTW2's timeframe, its a very good example of the best way to provide for the players - total control over who they play as.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, the Iberian peninsula. There are undoubtedly many arguments for the inclusion of Aragon as playable, but Portugal, which later became a major colonial power, is AI. I can't shake the feeling that Aragon was made playable at the expense of Portugal, but I'm probably wrong.

If that was the case I would have to agree with that decision. Throughout the majority of the medieval, Portugal mostly pushed south to Algarve and defended its borders against the Castillians, only becoming a seriously expansionist power in the 15th century, and even then doing it mostly overseas. Aragon was more aggressive in the reconquista and participated in a lot of Mediterranean adventurism. Portugal was indeed very important, but I think Aragon was a more dynamic state at the time being modeled.

[King Orko]

As for the faction list, take a look at Europa Universalis for a list of factions availible during the 1400-1800 period. While that might not fit exactly with MTW2's timeframe, its a very good example of the best way to provide for the players - total control over who they play as.
Europa universalis got too many nations I remind you, each nation of the world that times is in the game

[Kruniac]

Europa universalis got too many nations I remind you, each nation of the world that times is in the game

There is no such thing as too many possibilities. It makes me sick that the likes of Ireland has been summed up into one rebel city, instead of Leinster, Munster, Tyrone, etc.

The Holy Roman Empire is supposed to be MANY nations, with an emperor governing them and generally disciplining them as well. I dont see Burgandy anywhere, which just pisses me off, considering that they were fairly large by 1450.

Speaking of idiotic design decisions, has anyone noticed that you can play as spain? Spain, people. Spain didnt exist, as far as I know. Aragon and Castille existed, but not Spain.

Also, Morocco, Tunesia, Tripoli, Algiers, should all be playable factions.

Lets see here... The Mongols are a decent addition, but they should be a standard faction, and playable. Speaking of which, the map should be extended to Japan at the very least, and include areas such as Timbuktu.

This game just sucks, man. The only thing worth playing it for are the battles, and the worst AI ever created ruins that.

All I can do is wait and whine until MTR comes out, I suppose. RTR was pretty good, and this should be even better, provided that it doesnt get screwed up with this nonsense of "Gameplay". Ugh. Fricken gamers.

[Milovan]

@Kruniac:
If you put it that way, every state should be a playable faction. And I agree, but it's just not possible... And extending the map all the way to Japan is WAAAY too much man, well beyond the Caspian Sea is far enough.

[King Orko]

There is no such thing as too many possibilities. It makes me sick that the likes of Ireland has been summed up into one rebel city, instead of Leinster, Munster, Tyrone, etc.

The Holy Roman Empire is supposed to be MANY nations, with an emperor governing them and generally disciplining them as well. I dont see Burgandy anywhere, which just pisses me off, considering that they were fairly large by 1450.

Speaking of idiotic design decisions, has anyone noticed that you can play as spain? Spain, people. Spain didnt exist, as far as I know. Aragon and Castille existed, but not Spain.

Also, Morocco, Tunesia, Tripoli, Algiers, should all be playable factions.

Lets see here... The Mongols are a decent addition, but they should be a standard faction, and playable. Speaking of which, the map should be extended to Japan at the very least, and include areas such as Timbuktu.

This game just sucks, man. The only thing worth playing it for are the battles, and the worst AI ever created ruins that.

All I can do is wait and whine until MTR comes out, I suppose. RTR was pretty good, and this should be even better, provided that it doesnt get screwed up with this nonsense of "Gameplay". Ugh. Fricken gamers.
I must to dissagree with you, the game is great, it might lost some of the magic in MTW but it is steel great, it will be more wirh patches and expansions(I hope that more than one). it is immpossible to extand the map so large. the game focuses not only the world in medieval times, but just Europe and the mid east, which create the "classic" medieval with the castles, crusades and knights.

[whiffin]

Are the Ottomans going to be made to be incredibly abitious becuse if not then then really should be playable as look how much they did, destroyed the last bits of the Roman Empire in the east, took over a fair portion of the Middle East and the Balkans and werent stopped until the reached I think it was Vienna, and then lasted pretty for a hell of a along time, not even loosing the Middle East until the first world war

[Vla_86]

It would be really unfair,to make Balkan nations as non playable factions.Serbia,Bulgaria,Croatia have a great medieval history.They were fighting among themselves for a long time and also against much stronger factions like Hungary and Byzantine Empire..In the middle of 14th century beginns a great battle against Ottoman Empire,which lasted more then hundred years,when eventually in the end of 15 the century most of the Balkans fell into hands of Ottomans.I am from Serbia,and I would like to see my nation in the game,but also my other Balkan nations.

[Marcus Furius Camillus]

And again , no little semi - independent factions like Flanders

[PuppetMaster]

There is no such thing as too many possibilities. It makes me sick that the likes of Ireland has been summed up into one rebel city, instead of Leinster, Munster, Tyrone, etc.

The Holy Roman Empire is supposed to be MANY nations, with an emperor governing them and generally disciplining them as well. I dont see Burgandy anywhere, which just pisses me off, considering that they were fairly large by 1450.

Speaking of idiotic design decisions, has anyone noticed that you can play as spain? Spain, people. Spain didnt exist, as far as I know. Aragon and Castille existed, but not Spain.

Also, Morocco, Tunesia, Tripoli, Algiers, should all be playable factions.

Lets see here... The Mongols are a decent addition, but they should be a standard faction, and playable. Speaking of which, the map should be extended to Japan at the very least, and include areas such as Timbuktu.

This game just sucks, man. The only thing worth playing it for are the battles, and the worst AI ever created ruins that.

All I can do is wait and whine until MTR comes out, I suppose. RTR was pretty good, and this should be even better, provided that it doesnt get screwed up with this nonsense of "Gameplay". Ugh. Fricken gamers.


You sound like a disgruntled baby. We get it, you don't like the game, chill out brother!

You have to realize that when CA made this game, they were aiming to make a profit. By making the game confusing and superfilious (not for us fans of history, but to normal people) with factions like tunis, algiers, navarre, georgia, etc, the game would lose its appeal. Plus, breaking Spain into Navarre, Aragon, and Castille would have been a pain to make specialty units for each, not to mention it would take away room for other factions as well.

timbuktu is in the game, you just have to look :x

The only reason I can give for CA neglecting to put more emphasis on the Balkans is probably b/c

1. they're from England, therefore their concentration would deffinitely be geared more towards western europe out of unintentioned bias
2. when it comes to western mass media (UK, USA, etc), the balkans are neglected, and that is a fact, not an opinion. I live in the United States, and I can guarantee that the average person walking in the street couldn't tell you the difference between a Magyard and a Serb. UK tries appealling to western audiences, so therefore it will have a western slant in its product.

CA tries to be as historically accurate as possible, while maintaing its appeal to consumers. Thats what I guess anyway.

[Russ Mitchell]

Very much so. The English are historically weak on anything resembling East-Central and Southeastern european history. And what there is in print on the subject contains numerous egregious errors. (I am a practicing medieval historian.)

[PuppetMaster]

Very much so. The English are historically weak on anything resembling East-Central and Southeastern european history. And what there is in print on the subject contains numerous egregious errors. (I am a practicing medieval historian.)


I see you are based out of Texas. Can I assume you're studying there, and if so, what university?

[Mother Yoda]

I am not sure if the map for this mod includes South-central Africa like vanilla does but I have always wondered why there was never a Mali Faction made into it.

[Russ Mitchell]

I see you are based out of Texas. Can I assume you're studying there, and if so, what university?

Need to read a little closer, PM: I'm an instructor, not a student. :book:

I teach history at MountainView College in the DFW area, and am a medieval military historian. Trust me: what I thought I learned about Central European history in the English-language historiography prior to going there for graduate studies is a pathetic joke compared to what is actually known. We are not even aware of basic information that is considered undergraduate material in the region, and frequently refer to the region without bothering to consult any of these nations' actual historiography, instead relying on hopelessly-outdated monographs in french or german.

[The Celt]

Need to read a little closer, PM: I'm an instructor, not a student. :book:

I teach history at MountainView College in the DFW area, and am a medieval military historian. Trust me: what I thought I learned about Central European history in the English-language historiography prior to going there for graduate studies is a pathetic joke compared to what is actually known. We are not even aware of basic information that is considered undergraduate material in the region, and frequently refer to the region without bothering to consult any of these nations' actual historiography, instead relying on hopelessly-outdated monographs in french or german.
DFW area!? Holy crap I may be one of your students someday!(Not sure if I'll get in to MountainView, how high are their standards?)
As to the current topic. Does anyone notice that, outside of the recent Kingdom of Heaven movie, the Western mass media when concerning the Middle Ages pretty much focuses almost solely on England? I have, and, after doing some reading on this era, I have come to the conclusion that England didn't mean squat to Eastern powers such as Lithuania, Poland, Byzantium(excluding the Saxons who fled after Hastings)etc. Stuff like "Braveheart" seem pretty small scale when compared to the great Northern wars. :laugh4:

[Arsen of Arax]

Now is Armenian kingdom of Cilicia presented in this mod or what? If not, then you should reconsider ^^

[Sarmatian]

Need to read a little closer, PM: I'm an instructor, not a student. :book:

I teach history at MountainView College in the DFW area, and am a medieval military historian. Trust me: what I thought I learned about Central European history in the English-language historiography prior to going there for graduate studies is a pathetic joke compared to what is actually known. We are not even aware of basic information that is considered undergraduate material in the region, and frequently refer to the region without bothering to consult any of these nations' actual historiography, instead relying on hopelessly-outdated monographs in french or german.

It's a good thing you're American. If you were from Central and Southeastern Europe you would be called a revisionist and nationalist after such claim...

[blade_st]

you´re absolutely right that most of the americans dont know the difference between the balcan nations, but more then a half of those americans would also say that europe is the capital of nebraska or something like that.
some mods mind historical facts, others do not.

croatia is a independant kingdom untill 1102 (personal union with hungary)
serbia is a independant kingdom untill 1389 (epic battle of kosovo polje)

greetings from lijepa nasa to my serbian brothers !!!